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Yup, ten whole days, and diversity training. He told the student, to sit down Nigga, not using the racially insensitive word NIGGER he said NIGGA as you will see in the story.

Can you lend a Nigga a pencil! This is the teacher who teaches the English with honors class.

NIGGA
-------------------------
There are Negroes who will never fight for freedom. There are Negroes who will seek profit for themselves from the struggle. There are even some Negroes who will cooperate with the oppressors. The hammer blows of discrimination, poverty, and segregation must warp and corrupt some. No one can pretend that because a people may be oppressed, every individual member is virtuous and worthy. Martin Luther King

More to come later! Your Brother Faheem
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Valley Traditional High School is in the middle of a racial controversy. A teacher used a racial epithet towards a student. The word is only six letters long but the impact is far reaching.

We do want to warn you that some of the language in this story is strong and may offend some people, but since this story is not just about the "n" word it's also about the pronunciation, we've decided to leave it in the story for you to decide.
    Murphy: "What did he say to you specifically?"

    Chavers: "Sit down, nigger."
Keysean Chavers is a freshman at Valley, a Boy Scout, a football player, a member of the ROTC, an honor roll student. He was hanging around his teacher's classroom door in December. The teacher, Paul Dawson, told him to sit down. Dawson says Keysean used the word first.

"I was just kind of stunned for a second and I said, 'Well then, get away from the door, niggaz.' I repeated the same insult because that was sort of what I was trained to do." The school district says that's not what they trained Dawson to do. "He tried to say I said it and I didn't say it and no one else in the class said I said it, because I didn't," says Keysean.

Documents from the school investigation show that several of the students interviewed from Valley did not hear Keysean say the "n" word first. Dawson says students use the slang version of the word at Valley High School all the time. He says "nigger" is a racial slur but says students use "nigga" as often as they say "dude" or "hey, man." Dawson says as much as he doesn't like the word, he still used the slang version to feel more comfortable with black students. "Why is this word used so frequently? So I just don't understand it and I'm trying to understand it," Dawson says. "I need help."
    Murphy: "What kind of example are you setting for your students if you are using a word that you don't want them to use?"

    Dawson: "Upon reflection, that's not good."
Dawson was suspended for 10 days without pay from January 9 to January 23 and has to go to diversity training. He says he's learned from this and hopes others think twice before using the epithet. "I will never say any form of nigga. I'm cured of that."

Dawson says he is sorry for the way things were handled, but Keysean says he is not looking for any apologies. "Apologizing isn't going to change the fact that it happened and he's not been punished," he says. What constitutes punishment in Keysean's mind? "Him not having his job anymore."

Dawson says he wants there to be a steadfast policy against using the word. Right now it is dealt with on a case-by-case basis. Keysean is still in Paul Dawson's classroom.

Dawson has been with the district for 20 years. As part of our investigation we found that English teacher Paul Dawson was suspended in 1994, back when he worked at southern high school. According to documents, Dawson directed a student to place a sign on another students back that said, "I am gay." Afterwards, he was assigned to non-instructional duties pending the investigation and he was not supposed to return to Southern High School. The next day he ignored the order and went to Southern anyway. Shortly afterwards, Dawson refused to turn in his grade book to investigators. Dawson was suspended for five days without pay and had to go through an employee assistance program. Dawson also had a letter of reprimand that same year for selling candy to his students.

The school district says even with this most recent incident of him using the word "nigga" toward a student, this veteran teacher will get to keep his job. "It's understandable the frustration and the anger about a situation like this and we sincerely apologize because it is not our mode of operation, but we do believe that we have sent a very strong message," says Jefferson County Public Schools spokesperson Lauren Roberts.

Dawson says he will appeal his 10-day suspension to try and get it off his record. He did not want to talk about his past suspension when we met with him. His latest suspension is the longest suspension the district has ever given a teacher.

Dawson will go before district administrators at the end of the month to appeal his unpaid suspension.



http://www.whas11.com/topstories/stories/WHAS11_TOP_NWord.64363ef1.html
"It's understandable the frustration and the anger about a situation like this and we sincerely apologize because it is not our mode of operation, but we do believe that we have sent a very strong message," says Jefferson County Public Schools spokesperson Lauren Roberts.---article

This the message literally 'sent' to the public by the school district's afministration.

Spokespersons deliver the message of those responsible for the subject being addressed.

Here again, we are lookiing at the parents who elect this administration to run their schools.

Clearly, the children know this language is wrong. Clearly, the teacher knows the language is wrong. Clearly, the administration knnows this language is wrong.

They all react to the wrongness AFTER someone yells 'Foul!'

That school district operates under the direct licensing and supervision of a State agency.

What a mess.


PEACE

Jim Chester
quote:
Originally posted by Nmaginate:
Let me play Murphy...
    Murphy [Nmag]: What kind of shit is this: He said it first??
    So you're on the same level as the student?

    Dawson: That's how I was [potty] trained.
    I need help. [I just sh*t in my pants.]


lol laugh lol

I like your version better. It's more honest.

I am amazed that an grown, educated man thought he was going to make it all better with the ages old Kindergardner defense of "He started it!"

I don't know what's worse, the fact that he said that to a student or his lame assed attempt at defending it.
I personally dont see why we are surprised.....

Just think, now this kid has to sit in this mans honors class.......and pull a grade. (it happens everyday) Seems like no matter what.....the kid loses, and he knows this..

But then again.....this is life, and it amazes me how some blacks/AAs move on in life, without seeing this or caring.
It's actually fairly obvious what the most probable situation was. "Nigga" is an widely used slang word amongst non-racist teenagers, I know because I am a teenager. I for one do not have any trouble believing that this word is in frequent use by students in the class in question. In that case, to use the word in a mocking manner, to critique the language which is often coupled with a specific attitude, one which requires teachers to have to remind students to do simple tasks like sitting down at an appropriate time, (the kid didn't seem stupid from the information given, ergo an attitude of indifference), would be perfectly normal. It would be very much like a situation where a student upon skipping a test because of sheer lack of interest says: "I forgot there was a test that day guy," and a teacher responds "Too bad, you get a zero... guy."

For those pedants among you who would quibble the point that the student did not say the word before the teacher did, thus attempting to negate the argument of sarcastic response in a disciplinary fashion, let me remind you that this is slang we are discussing. Imagine people who say "nigga" as often as some people say "like," then think about the probability that the student said it before entering into conversation with the teacher, thus provoking comment.

To draw a parallel to slang, the word "juke" used to be slang meaning to have sex, thus the word "jukebox" was come upon as they were present in, to put it bluntly, whorehouses. For those of you who have their heads up their asses, (you don't know who you are), I think i'll start a mini-scandal about the word jukebox.
=============================
The Slang Parallel
==============================
Friend: Wow, you have a jukebox in your house? I wish I had one.
Me: (Incensed) DO YOU KNOW WHAT THAT WORD MEANS!
Friend: umm....
Me: YOU JUST SAID I LIVED IN A WHOREHOUSE!
Friend: *stunned silence*

the sarcasm continues...
===========================
The Second Mimic Since Breakfast
===========================
Me: If you are all that concerned about the language, care, first of all, that "AA" kids are using the term, and secondly about a culture where a teacher has to mimic his students [potty] language to grab their attention for a few seconds.

Misc. Angry Person: yaddayadda poor kid yaddayadda hearsay always reliable (implied) yaddayadda. [I wish I could sh*t my pants, but my heads too far up my ass].

Me: *stunned silence*

========================================
Space/Time? Einstein's Got Nothing On Me
========================================
Misc Angry Person: They reacted after someone cried foul. If someone else had have cried foul earlier, then they... hold on a second...

Me: *stunned silence*

========================================
The Black Helicopters, Roswell, and You
======================================
Misc Angry Person: If a subordinate does something wrong, it PROVES all the leadership above that position also is doing the same thing wrong. (Ill defined link suggesting racist government policies).

Me: *stunned silence*

---------------

It isn't hard to see what you expected to see, especially if that's all you're looking for - Anonymous
quote:
It would be very much like a situation where a student upon skipping a test because of sheer lack of interest says: "I forgot there was a test that day guy," and a teacher responds "Too bad, you get a zero... guy."
"GUY" and "Ni@@a" aren't comparable and no teacher with a grasp of LANGUAGE and common sense, much less a critiquing, discriminating grasp, would be so stupid as to view the two as comparable for discipline or otherwise.

quote:
For those pedants among you who would quibble the point that the student did not say the word before the teacher did...
So, I guess you're given to the idiotic idea that the teacher is somehow justified when/if "The student said it first!"

Unreal...

Ni@@a is not just another word in the English language. It's not comparable to "guy" or "like", slang or not.
quote:
the word "juke" used to be slang meaning to have sex,
No one is ignorant of the meaning or connotation of Ni@@a when said in a condescending manner or when trying to be snide or sly or sarcastic, much less when its used in a teacher-student relationship.

This was very clear:
MURPHY [Nmag]: What kind of shit is this: He said it first??
So you're on the same level as the student?


The teacher definitely wasn't ignorant and Ni@@a is nowhere near as archiac as "jukebox" = whorehouse.

Try again...
quote:
Controversial Teacher Reassigned

(LOUISVILLE, Feb. 6th, 2006) A Louisville high school drama teacher was escorted out of school Monday as Jefferson County Public School officials investigate whether or not he should lose his job. In December Paul Dawson called a student the "N-word" after the student used the word with him. Dawson was suspended for 10 days in January from Valley Traditional High...

On Monday, Dawson hoped students would join him in taking a stand with a walkout...
quote:
Dawson said in a written statement that the student first used the word toward him and [said] "[I] responded with the same disrespectful term that he hurled my way. I said: 'Well then, niggah, you get away from my window.' "

...The student, whose name was not released, denied to school officials that he used the term first. He alleged that Dawson said it while trying to get him to sit down. District investigators interviewed several witnesses, who did not confirm Dawson's allegation about the student, who wasn't disciplined.

Officials said the teacher's use of the word in any circumstance was a serious offense.

"It's insensitive, inappropriate language, and it's conduct unbecoming a teacher," district spokeswoman Lauren Roberts said.

...Several Valley High students said yesterday that the word often is used among black students, and sometimes whites, as a term of affection. But they were surprised that a teacher had said it.

"I thought it was very offensive," said Shareka Morrow, 17, who heard about the incident secondhand. "If you're white, you don't say it."

Ray Underwood, 18, another black student, said Dawson is a good teacher who "likes rappin' " and using urban slang and most likely did not "try to hurt feelings."

Ricky Jones, chairman of the Department of Pan-African Studies at the University of Louisville, said some African Americans view the word "nigger" as a derogatory term and "niggah" as a term of affection.

But the latter can be offensive to some, and there's heated debate about whether the prevalence of the term in any form is acceptable, he said. Some argue its use by blacks helps negate the word's derogatory power.

But few condone its use by white people, Jones said -- especially by adults who should fully understand the word's historical context.

http://www.courier-journal.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AI...02030403/1008/NEWS01
quote:
Originally posted by Jaco:
"Nigga" is an widely used slang word amongst non-racist teenagers, I know because I am a teenager.


Yeah, ok....

Youre making this sound as though its ok for you and your (non racist, whatever that means) friends to use this word.

Think again!!!

I dont use it, and you or this teacher using this word, is out of line!!!
Any english teacher knows that "LANGUAGE" is a dynamic syntax, and also that ideas are the essence of communication. Put simply, that means that whatever the two parties involved in conversation perceive the meaning of a word to be, that's what the word means in that conversation.

If both parties concieve "nigga" as an informal form of address, then that's what it means in that conversation, DESPITE ANY OUTSIDERS OPINION!

This means that the student saying "nigga" first would justify the teacher saying it because THE WORD WOULD HAVE A COMPLETELY DIFFERENT MEANING IN THE CONTEXT OF THAT CONVERSATION! The english teacher didn't have to be ignorant of the meaning of the n-word to communicate a completely different meaning of the same word.

So, the final summation.
1) The student, when using this word, did not mean it as a racist remark.
2) If the above is true, and the student used the word in the presence of the teacher, this means there is a high probability that the word, when used by a teacher, ALSO was not racist. If offense was meant (as is probable) it was aimed at the student's vocabulary NOT at his ethnic background.

QED, if you somehow disagree with anything I've said, you're having trouble with connecting two very basic syllogisms.

To clear the record, I do not disagree with the teachers punishment, it was completely nessecary to prevent actual racial discrimination from occuring. You will notice the word probability scattered throughout both posts, because I do recognise there could have been racist intent. My main point is that there probably wasn't, and people should recognise that even though he has to be punished.

What I do have some trouble with, is the tendency for people to cry wolf at any sign of possible discrimination (racist, sexist, you name it). It is completely natural that as people become less bigoted, they will unwittingly make remarks they do not realise the full portent of. To condemn them for this is literally retarded (in the sense of social growth). Show some common sense people, you have no idea where the students are coming from when they say "nigga," but you have the experience to realise innapropiate words become slang. Ask a dog breeder what "bitch" means, ask an extremely elderly farmer what "ass" means. "Nigga" is commonly used slang, whether you like it or not. Deal with it and adjust your perceptions of the word when you used in that context. You had to be flexible to get your head where it was in the first place, surely you wriggle around a little to be, at minimum, understanding of the fact.

On a personal note, Nmaginate, you score 0 for reader comprehension. The word jukebox never has meant whorehouse, but in the sense of the analogy given, could be misconstrued as such by an illogical and over-sensitive person. Way to completely miss the point in a manner that provided a telling example to support it. Yes the meaning of the word "juke" has become archaic to most, just as the word "nigga" has become archaic to some.

**EDIT: Response to pst**

In response to qty's post before this, all I was saying was that people use this word. Nowhere did I say I used it, I only stated that I was in an environment to know that people did use it. You're right up there with Nmaginate on the reader comprehension. Non racist means not racist, there is no way to make it any more clear.

**Edit: keep sneaking extra posts in on me**

Regarding the article psted by NMaginate after his piece responding to my initial post.

'Ray Underwood, 18, another black student, said Dawson is a good teacher who "likes rappin' " and using urban slang and most likely did not "try to hurt feelings."'

The general consensus is that its wrong because only black people are allowed to use the n-word. That is a load of crap. If people look at the color of someone's skin before deciding whether to take offense at a remark, all it shows is that they are at least as racist, and from the comment made regarding the teachers intent, probably more so than the teacher. Don't feed me that crap, bigotry is bigotry. People who accept this as fair and unbiased, "the higher moral ground" so to speak, are hypocrites plain and simple, only because it is obvious this language is in use by the student involved and his peers.

For those who have not yet responded, I apologise for coming off as rude, and ask that you thouroughly read and consider my point of view with a degree of rationality before responding. I always welcome reasonable discussion.
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quote:
Originally posted by qty226:
Jaco

My reading comprehension skills are air tight...so drop the sarcasm.

I live in a white community, and i do not hear, 'non blacks' using this word.

Out of everything that you said.........it boils down to this, justification.

I hear whites call each other, redneck, cracka, etc. Should i therefore use these terms when addressing another black person?

"Yo redneck, Yo cracka".

Doesnt make much sense huh?

The bottom line is, bigotry, and racism is still running rampant in this country.....and no matter what, its a word........that YOU dont have to use.
Air tight? You read that post and thought I used the n-word in everyday conversation and that I condoned its use as a racist term discribing blacks (or in any situation). All I did in my post was offer the point of view that the teacher probably was not a racist. You might have a leak somewhere.

I don't object to people who disagree with using the n-word, in fact I agree with them. What I disagree with is the point of view, first of all that the teacher was being racist, when it seems like he was just trying to make a connection with a kid who wasn't listening. I object to this, frankly because it's insulting to be labelled a racist, more insulting from my point of view, than any racial profiling. I think this way because racial profiling is completely meaningless while being labelled a racist portrays you as a complete dumbass. If the teacher in question was not being racist then he is probably extremely irritated to the point of exasperation at being known as such, and this leads right into my next point. The double standard possessed by many people (excluding qty as she has pointed out), is that it's ok to use the n-word if you are AA and racist if you aren't. As I've said before, if you look at someones skin color to decide whether to take offense at something, you are a racist, plain and simple. If you condone this, you're a racist. If you label someone without proper knowledge, then you're a bigot. If you object to racism but condone blacks using the n-word while condemning whites, then you are a bigot AND a hypocrite.

And one last repartee, before someone else posts...

"The bottom line is, bigotry, and racism is still running rampant in this country.....and no matter what, its a word........that YOU dont have to use."

I'm Canadian.
Jaco, while it would be difficult to disagree that words used in a conversation between two people carries the meaning as understood by the two people conversing, the impact of their language, the words they are using reaches beyond those two. This can be demonstrated by one not being able to speak about a bomb on an airplane. Surely if I turned to a friend on a plane and said "this song I am listening to is the "bomb" he would know what I mean but how will it be perceived by others, should they adjust to the popular use of the word by Black folk or should I have chosen a better word considering the time and place of my comments. Does it matter that the word has a completely different meaning based on the context in which it was used by me while speaking with a friend, of course not, I know better and popular culture is no excuse.
quote:
Put simply, that means that whatever the two parties involved in conversation perceive the meaning of a word to be, that's what the word means in that conversation.

If both parties concieve "nigga" as an informal form of address, then that's what it means in that conversation, DESPITE ANY OUTSIDERS OPINION!
Maybe you ought to think about your futile attempts at logic before you publish it.

Obviously, the meaning "in that conversation" has everything to do with how the "meaning" was received by the student. No matter how the student used the word, the meaning when thrown back at the student, given the way English works, need not be the same. And clearly the student didn't perceive or conceive or receive it as the same.

So, again, think before you throw soft-balls of illogic around. Obviously "both parties" were not cool with the teachers use of the term. Tone, non-verbals and, yes, sarcasm in the English language alters the meaning of words.

"You are so stupid!" lol
"You are so STUPID!!!" upset

Frankly, there is no way in a Two-Way Conversation (which you pretend to be talking) that you can discount how the student perceived, conceived and received the teachers statement. And speaking about READING COMPREHENSION:

District investigators interviewed several witnesses, who did not confirm Dawson's allegation about the student...

So, not only are you trying to forward the childish premise of the teacher ("He Said It First!") but you're trying to argue in support of his idiotic defense and the statement itself when there is nothing but the teachers questionable statement to go on.

quote:
On a personal note, Nmaginate, you score 0 for reader comprehension.

...Yes the meaning of the word "juke" has become archaic to most, just as the word "nigga" has become archaic to some.
Like I said, there is NO COMPARISON and there is little that's "archaic" about the meaning of the N-Word particularly with an English teacher who is, as you suggest, suppose to know something about "LANGUAGE."

quote:
To clear the record, I do not disagree with the teachers punishment, it was completely nessecary to prevent actual racial discrimination from occuring.
When you know what the hell you're talking about then come back with your half-cocked ideas.

And "probability" won't save you. As noted above, you yourself have had to admit that you're not making proper, equivalent comparisons. Like I said:
No one is ignorant of the meaning or connotation of Ni@@a when said in a condescending manner or when trying to be snide or sly or sarcastic, much less when its used in a teacher-student relationship.

The teacher said:
"[I] responded with the same disrespectful term that he hurled my way."

The teacher called the term DISRESPECTFUL. Now what is the basis for your comments here?
quote:
So, the final summation.
1) The student, when using this word, did not mean it as a racist remark.
2) If the above is true, and the student used the word in the presence of the teacher, this means there is a high probability that the word, when used by a teacher, ALSO was not racist. If offense was meant (as is probable) it was aimed at the student's vocabulary NOT at his ethnic background.
Why, even when presented with what the teacher, himself, said about the use of the term... WHY ARE YOU talking about what it "probably" meant or was used for?

In either event, using the term WITH A KNOWN VALUE of having a different perceived meaning and acceptability depending on the race of the sender... In any event, an English teacher, an adult, a conscious, thinking individual could easily think of other ways to make a teaching moment (if that was his intent) out of the incident without traversing the lunacy of using a forbidden term. A KNOWN FORBIDDEN TERM!

And, considering how this is the hip-hop era and how the term was supposedly used frequently AMONG THE STUDENTS... the teacher had ample time and reason to teach about the term. Instead, he said some BS like this:
quote:
Dawson says students use the slang version of the word at Valley High School all the time. He says "nigger" is a racial slur but says students use "nigga" as often as they say "dude" or "hey, man." Dawson says as much as he doesn't like the word, he still used the slang version to feel more comfortable with black students. "Why is this word used so frequently? So I just don't understand it and I'm trying to understand it," Dawson says. "I need help."
Basically, the revelation there is that he DID NOT feel comfortable [enough] around Blacks, for whatever reason. Reasons that obviously had a lot to do with his idoitic use of the term and his equally idiotic defense for his use of it.
quote:
The general consensus is that its wrong because only black people are allowed to use the n-word. That is a load of crap. If people look at the color of someone's skin before deciding whether to take offense at a remark, all it shows is that they are at least as racist, and from the comment made regarding the teachers intent, probably more so than the teacher. Don't feed me that crap, bigotry is bigotry.
And that's what caused the teacher to be in the position he's in. Idiotic EQUIVOCATING and DECONTEXTUALIZING both the meaning and the life of the word.

Just as racist = JUST AS DUMB!!

Even there, there is NO COMPARISON. Somehow, you find it hard to compare like things. And none of this is contingent on it being acceptable to you.

Bigotry is Bigotry is IGNORANCE is IGNORANCE.
That stuff might go for logic where you come from but that BS isn't working here. You can't strip a word of it's CONTEXT, history or anything else that has developed with the life of the word, no matter how much it flies against your idiotic ABSTRACT Abstractions.

Yes, Bigotry Is Bigotry in the ABSTRACT, huh?
Now, let's see you demonstrate how the two are comparable in ACTUALITY. So, yes, let's here you detail how the two are equally or similarly "bigoted" in real life use, impact and effect.
quote:
Ni@@a is not just another word in the English language. It's not comparable to "guy" or "like", slang or not.

quote:
You can't strip a word of it's CONTEXT, history or anything else that has developed with the life of the word, no matter how much it flies against your idiotic ABSTRACT Abstractions.


ek *faints*... and Brotha you know EXACTLY why. I told ya ass about that back in '05! cabbage appl bsm laugh
Frenchy, you ain't told me schitz!!

We can go back to 2005 and you'll still come up short. RHETORIC ain't schitz, Frenchy. Wait, let me rephrase that: Your RHETORIC from 2005 wasn't bout schitz!

So I maintain the same then as I do now. Someone White saying "Ni@@a", especially how this teacher went about saying it, given the reasons he expressed, is a CONTEXTUAL situation and, two, the way the word is received is paramount. There is a HISTORY there and a way the life of the word has developed especially in those types of relationships.

So, go ahead, and tell what your broke reasoning conveyed to me in 2005. You certainly had nothing to say about CONTEXT then. Yours, too, was an ABSTRACTION pretty much on the same idiotic order (idiotic ABSOLUTE order) as JACO's "Bigotry is Bigotry" non-thinking.

http://africanamerica.org/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/791602...631094733#2631094733

http://africanamerica.org/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/79160213/m/1291028282/p/1

http://africanamerica.org/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/791602...931033423#1931033423
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quote:
For those pedants among you who would quibble the point that the student did not say the word before the teacher did, thus attempting to negate the argument of sarcastic response in a disciplinary fashion, let me remind you that this is slang we are discussing. Imagine people who say "nigga" as often as some people say "like," then think about the probability that the student said it before entering into conversation with the teacher, thus provoking comment.

To draw a parallel to slang, the word "juke" used to be slang meaning to have sex, thus the word "jukebox" was come upon as they were present in, to put it bluntly, whorehouses. For those of you who have their heads up their asses, (you don't know who you are), I think i'll start a mini-scandal about the word jukebox.

___________________________________________

There is no excuse in the world that an educated professional, and teacher on top of that, in charge of teaching and educating minors has for using this word. He can attempt to explain and excuse his use of the word all he wants, but he knows, and we all know that it was his intent to be able to call an African American a nigger and get away with it. I'll bet he's never called a 6ft-200+lb African American adult male 'nigga'---I'll be his better judgment would let him know right away not to call a grown man at least his size or less that word, so it seems extremely unlikely that he was not siezing an opportunity to use this derrogatory term without sanction (or a size 12 up his ass).

And the term "juke" really has African origins that basically means a house of ill repute -- not necessarily or only a 'whorehouse' -- it could be a liquour house, gambling house, or even a whorehouse. The term is still used in the south by older people and they are almost never talking about a whorehouse when they say it. It really means a house or a place (juke joint) where people gather to do nearly anything that 'religous' people feel is either a sin or against religous teaching.
One of the things about hopefully being an educator is having enough sense not to engage in behavior or language that is wrong or could seemed as hateful. Just because your students are brain dead doens't mean you have to be also.

Interesting point about juke joints as I spend my fair share in them while going to college in Mississippi. The idea that they were whorehouses speaks to the young not knowing what they are talking about. Granted there was sin going on in the place just not that kind.
Wow, good arguing guys.

Good points I've read

- he wouldn't insult someone who could kick his ass, so it's certain that he would seize the day and insult someone who couldn't (impeccable logic)

- juke joints aren't always whorehouses, thus proving that anyone under the age of (whatever) has no clue about what they're talking about (extra points for recognising the key essentials to my post)

- Nmaginate's parody of the interview, simply rife with meaning

- QTY's quick quantam leap in realising that I use this word in everyday speech. Spot on, this is just part of my scheme to get people to use it more

- The refutation of when I said the teacher's punishment was nessecary. I take that back, you were right when you said it was nessecary

- QTY's quick shutdown of my argument that I was Canadian, that was not in response to "this country" [USA]

"Try again"

My point is simply that the same people who leap to the conclusion that he was being intentionally racist, use the n-word in everyday speech in a non-racist fashion. Italians don't call themelves whomps, Japanese people don't say Nip's, etc etc.

THE TEACHER WAS INSULTING THE TENDENCY OF A DEMOGRAPHIC TO HABITUALLY INSULT THEMSELVES! Its called parody, its funny, and wasn't racist at all.

Throw the book at the guy up for all I care, it would probably stop quite a bit of racism in the future. Just don't get all worked up because an english teacher insulted some kid's command of the english language.

(Feel free to continue misinterpereting anything I've said hereon in, I'm done reasoning with you twits. Snide comments about the second last sentence are also welcome.)
"My point is simply that the same people who leap to the conclusion that he was being intentionally racist, use the n-word in everyday speech in a non-racist fashion. Italians don't call themelves whomps, Japanese people don't say Nip's, etc etc.""
------------------------------------------
The teacher was wrong. I never use the word. I teach at the university/college level, and there many student's in the '13th' grade, who remain immature and oblivious to decorum. They curse, yell, shout, insult (I've had skinheads as students make all sorts of horrendous comments in my classes) me and so on. I struggle, (but win)in not responding in kind, because its unprofessional, it would get me fired, and if its a differing ethnic group,I make certain to only acquaint myself with deragatory cultural epithets, not use them. He was wrong, culturally insensitive, unprofessional and, obviously has exhausted his ability to competently 'control' his classroom.
quote:
Originally posted by Jaco:
My point is simply that the same people who leap to the conclusion that he was being intentionally racist, use the n-word in everyday speech in a non-racist fashion.

Your missing the point here. A white man cannot use the word nigger in a non-racist fashion. The weight of history is behind that word.

quote:
Italians don't call themelves whomps, Japanese people don't say Nip's, etc etc.

This has nothing to do with anything. Who cares what Italians and Japanese do or don't call themselves? And Whomp and Nip don't have any where near the historical significance of nigger. Don't mix apples and oranges.

quote:
THE TEACHER WAS INSULTING THE TENDENCY OF A DEMOGRAPHIC TO HABITUALLY INSULT THEMSELVES! Its called parody, its funny, and wasn't racist at all.

How do you not understand the lack of logic here? Listen carefully, If I choose to insult myself, that does not give you or anyone else leave to do so. It was not parody, it was not funny, and it was as racist as all get out.

quote:
Just don't get all worked up because an english teacher insulted some kid's command of the english language.

I am not upset because an English teacher insulted some kid's command of the English language. I am upset because a white man in a position of power over a Black child humiliated and degraded that Black child while simultaneously insulting my entire race.
quote:
THE TEACHER WAS INSULTING THE TENDENCY OF A DEMOGRAPHIC TO HABITUALLY INSULT THEMSELVES! Its called parody, its funny, and wasn't racist at all.
Okay, let's see you do some street-corner comedy doing the same thing.

But, as I have to tell people coming from lame angles like yours pretty often... you SELF-FUCKED (i.e. CONTRADICTED yourself). Here you are betraying what you said before in order for your CIRCULAR REASONING to work. You said:
Put simply... whatever the two parties involved in conversation perceive the meaning of a word to be, that's what the word means in that conversation.

To which I countered:
Obviously, the meaning "in that conversation" has everything to do with how the "meaning" was received by the student. No matter how the student used the word, the meaning when thrown back at the student, given the way English works, need not be the same. And clearly the student didn't perceive or conceive or receive it as the same.... Obviously "both parties" were not cool with the teachers use of the term... Frankly, there is no way in a Two-Way Conversation (which you pretend to be talking) that you can discount how the student perceived, conceived and received the teachers statement.

Nothing that comes out of what we know the TWO PARTIES felt about the communication lends to this BS you're trying to sell:
Frown Its called parody, its funny, and wasn't racist at all. Frown

Now, where did the TWO PARTIES *both* say that?

And to the other unthinking part of what you said... YOU CAN READ:
quote:
In either event, using the term WITH A KNOWN VALUE of having a different perceived meaning and acceptability depending on the race of the sender... In any event, an English teacher, an adult, a conscious, thinking individual could easily think of other ways to make a teaching moment (if that was his intent) out of the incident without traversing the lunacy of using a forbidden term. A KNOWN FORBIDDEN TERM!


Yeah, you say "Good Arguing"... but obviously you can't extend that to yourself. CIRCULAR REASONING? Nah! Doesn't cut it. Now chew on this:
quote:
There is no reason why whites should audibilize
[the N-Word], ever.


...Fact is, history has been a double standard too, and it is this history that explains why the n-word is so much more offensive when coming from a white mouth than the mouth of an African American.

...Simply put, the historic use of the n-word in the white community is not one of mixed meaning. It is not a history in which we called our black friends or colleagues such a term, as if it meant little more than "hey there dude, let's go grab a burger and fries at the Mickey D's." In the mouths and hearts of whites, that word has only been used in the context of contempt, of presumed white superiority, of anti-black bigotry.

...That many whites won't be able to understand this simple point is testimony to nothing so much as our own sense of entitlement. In other words, we are not used to anyone telling us that we can't do something, or shouldn't, and as such take great offense when our own freedom, including the freedom to offend, is constrained.

I can think of no other reason than the desire to maintain a certain form of white privilege: the privilege of saying whatever we want, whenever we want, and feeling as though our right to lecture others on their behavior should logically take precedence over controlling our own.

...The same privilege that (as the flipside to racism itself) has historically given the n-word its power to injure in the first place. As with all racism, it is power and position that gives a racial slur its ability to injure. This is why slurs against whites like cracker or honky seem more juvenile than truly offensive. And this is why the n-word, spoken by whites, is so fundamentally less acceptable than the same term spoken by blacks, however potentially problematic the latter may be.

http://www.lipmagazine.org/~timwise/DoubleStandard.html


The thing is, it's really telling when people like you make an issue out of and try to justify Whites using the N-Word. Really, it reflects on an twisted idea that runs counter to things you want to profess: Obviously, Whites that make such an argument feel they should have a right to call a Black person "Nigger".

That's what it boils down to and that says a lot about the person making any such argument.

So, instead of all the cowardly shenanigans... Start that Street Corner Comedy Show. Film it. So we can laugh every time someone blast your silly azz! Oh but make sure you tell them, you meant it in a nice way. lol
What if the teacher was Black??
I am sure if the teacher was Black this would not be news, and you probably would not care. This is a very serious issue that 'WE' need to fix.

Pop culture is Black! All the popular music and TV shows involve Blacks people in some entity. If the word 'nigga' is used so freely in 'pop culture' it gets adopted by all. 'WE' need to stop this. I love the Dave Chappelle show, Boondocks, pretty much all black movies (I just love black people) and we use the word too much.

It is very hard to not find the word 'nigga' on a rap or hip hop CD. Do you know how popular Kanye West's "Gold Digger" song was. Have you ever seen white folks sing that song??? It is hillarious but wrong!! When I am around they substitute nigga with the radio editted beep..... but when i am not around it is NIGGA NIGGA Gold diggin NIGGA.

I grew up in the hood, unfortunately the word 'nigga' was said more than my own name. I grew insensitive to it. More and more whites are growing insenistive to it too. That is 'Our' fault.

My wife has forbid the word in our house. I used to use the word alot. Things have really changed and I raely use it now. I think that is for the better. Try it out.... Every time you say Nigga do 25 Push ups, you will be swoool in 3 weeks!
quote:
Originally posted by Nmaginate:

The thing is, it's really telling when people like you make an issue out of and try to justify Whites using the N-Word. Really, it reflects on an twisted idea that runs counter to things you want to profess: Obviously, Whites that make such an argument feel they should have a right to call a Black person "Nigger".



Exactly....

I hear whites, call each other 'Redneck' all the time........

Should i call a black man that (as whites call each other nigger) .......or a white man a 'Redneck', when addressing him, just because i 'hear' this all the time?
quote:
Originally posted by Omega4ul:
What if the teacher was Black??

What if?
quote:
I am sure if the teacher was Black this would not be news, and you probably would not care.

That is not a safe assumption, IMO. A teacher is required, certainly in a public school, to set a better example than this. I would take issue with a Black teacher using this word with a student.

But, a white teacher using this word with a Black student is an entirely different ball of wax. When the word nigger comes from a white person it is derogatory, subjugating, and inflammetory. And he did this in public, in front of other students, which to my mind just throws gas on the fire! Ask yourself this, if both these people were grown adults with no power relationship and this had happened on the street, what would the outcome had been? The white man would run a good chance of being socked in the mouth! But in the student/teacher relationship, the boy doesn't have the power to defend his own honor. That's why there are rules in place that are supposed to defend that honor for him, even if his teacher's a complete idiot.

quote:
If the word 'nigga' is used so freely in 'pop culture' it gets adopted by all. 'WE' need to stop this. I love the Dave Chappelle show, Boondocks, pretty much all black movies (I just love black people) and we use the word too much.

I don't disagree with you here. But, when we use it, it's our problem, not theirs. The difference between "nigger" and "nigga" is not the spelling, it's the context in which it is used. The people using the word are a part of that context. Even a Black person who uses that word with me out of context is liable to be slapped. For white people, there is not, nor will there ever be, an appropriate context.

quote:
More and more whites are growing insenistive to it too.

I don't think this is true at all. I hear white people confusedly asking all the time why we can use it and they can't. The fact is that whatever we choose to call ourselves is not their business or perogative. White people will never get a pass on this, and they know it. Unless, of course, they are completely stupid. Even then they'll learn soon enough.

quote:
My wife has forbid the word in our house.

Tell your wife she's got a fan in me! tfro
quote:
Exactly....

I hear whites, call each other 'Redneck' all the time........


QTY, what I wanted to say is that there is this perverse desire where WHITE PEOPLE WANT TO CALL BLACK PEOPLE "NI@@ER" and so this becomes an issue for them.


And then you have some other folk sniffin' on that Anal ABSTRACT glue.
quote:
More and more whites are growing insenistive to it too. That is 'Our' fault.
BULLSHIT!!!

Whites are responsible and know the word, FOR THEM is FORBIDDEN. Otherwise JACO wouldn't be trying to make the limp argument he does (which is not unlike others) trying to justify it.

And your reasoning is even more limp, OMEGA.
Try actually saying something relevant to the actual topic. Yeah... that might help.
I lied when I said that was my last post.

http://haacked.com/archive/2004/02/06/169.aspx

There's your comedy show.

" lol "

In any case, to repeat myself again, I'm not trying to get you to say it's ok for me or any other person to use the n-word. I'm letting you know I don't take this kids sob story seriously because he had obviously heard the word from his peer group before, without bringing up a huge scandal. English teachers do crap like this all the time. My english teacher counted incorrect uses of the word "like" during one of my classmate's presentation (there were 137), then announced it to her in the presence of her peers. That student watches how much she uses the word in an innapropiate context now. A black student in my english class last year brought in a CD labelled "Nigga music" and handed it in as part of a presentation. The teacher blasted this kid. "Turn off that 'Nigga Music'." (he was listening to music in a lesson about a week later). Did the kid go cry to his parents? No, he was mature enough to realise that it was a pretty stupid idea to use the word in everyday speech, and truth be told, he uses it on a less regular basis now.

Grow up, quit using the word, (guess what word I learned Richard Pryor says he hasn't used for 20 years), quit condoning its use and people will respect you for it, as well as paying more attention when you do dissaprove its use.
---------------------------------------------
Another good argument: I think its three times now that people have brought up the idea of solving problems through an asskicking. I would like to build on that positive trend by saying that my dad can beat up your dad. Keep the streak alive!

**EDIT**
Omega is quite right Nmag, before I watched Dave Chappelle and developed somewhat of a friendship with a group of blacks who use this word constantly, I was much more sensitive to its use. White's started its use in the context we know it today, but I hear blacks use it more than any whites do. Spot on Omega. And for the third or fourth time, I have no desire to be granted the dubious privilege of using this word, quit arguing that point.
quote:
In any case, to repeat myself again, I'm not trying to get you to say it's ok for me or any other person to use the n-word. I'm letting you know I don't take this kids sob story seriously because he had obviously heard the word from his peer group before, without bringing up a huge scandal. English teachers do crap like this all the time. My english teacher counted incorrect uses of the word "like" during one of my classmate's presentation (there were 137), then announced it to her in the presence of her peers.


So Jaco ... Using your logic, you'd be okay with someone outside of your immediate peer circle, including an adult in authority telling you to sit down "Bitch" or "Fag" or "Asshole" ... Because you and they have heard it used in your peer circle, even by you? bs

You'd run your little teenage Canadian ass to the nearest snitching post to have that adult's head.

quote:
My english teacher counted incorrect uses of the word "like" during one of my classmate's presentation (there were 137), then announced it to her in the presence of her peers.


How is this even relevant? What part of cultural loaded word/phrase don't you understand? The above nonsense clearly demonstrates that you have no clue as to the cultural baggage associated with the word nigger. Maybe you don't understand because you are Canadian, or maybe because you are white. At any rate, since you clearly don't understand the concept, stop trying to speak as an authority. nono
quote:
Originally posted by Nmaginate:
quote:
Exactly....

I hear whites, call each other 'Redneck' all the time........


QTY, what I wanted to say is that there is this perverse desire where WHITE PEOPLE WANT TO CALL BLACK PEOPLE "NI@@ER" and so this becomes an issue for them.



I was hoping this wasnt true........but i see your point!
quote:
I'm not trying to get you to say it's ok for me or any other person to use the n-word.

IRRELEVANT!!!

And everything else you're "trying" - i.e. displaying - with your lawn chair logic is IRRELEVANT as well.

Now, whoever you thought you were talking... Where did they(I) say, "You're trying to get us(me) to say it's ok for Whites(you) to use the N-Word."

Logically, you can't get that out of anything I said, for certain:
  • The thing is, it's really telling when people like you make an issue out of and try to justify Whites using the N-Word.

    That is, indeed, what you've "tried" to do by defending and declaring that didn't say "anything racist at all."

  • Obviously, Whites that make such an argument feel they [WHITES] should have a right to call a Black person "Nigger".

    That is, indeed, the result of trying to defend the indefensible. That is, indeed, the logical result of this BULLSHIT:

    quote:
  • The double standard possessed by many people... is that it's ok to use the n-word if you are AA and racist if you aren't.

  • The general consensus is that its wrong because only black people are allowed to use the n-word. That is a load of crap. If people look at the color of someone's skin before deciding whether to take offense at a remark, all it shows is that they are at least as racist, and from the comment made regarding the teachers intent, probably more so than the teacher. Frown Don't feed me that crap, bigotry is bigotry. Frown
  • Come on and get your jokes on... while you get your Intellectually Challenged ass straight to addressing what I said:
    quote:
    Bigotry is Bigotry is IGNORANCE is IGNORANCE.
    That stuff might go for logic where you come from but that BS isn't working here. You can't strip a word of it's CONTEXT, history or anything else that has developed with the life of the word, no matter how much it flies against your idiotic ABSTRACT Abstractions.

    Yes, Bigotry Is Bigotry in the ABSTRACT, huh?
    Now, let's see you demonstrate how the two are comparable in ACTUALITY. So, yes, let's here you detail how the two are equally or similarly "bigoted" in real life use, impact and effect.
    Either address that or STFU!!!

    That Sleight of Hand BS, that anal abstract BS doesn't fly. And you can't even follow your own standards:
    Put simply... whatever the two parties involved in conversation perceive the meaning of a word to be, that's what the word means in that conversation.

    Now, what I did say you were trying to sell was this CONTRADICTED bullshit:
    Frown Its called parody, its funny, and wasn't racist at all. Frown

    REPEATING....
    Now, where did the TWO PARTIES *both* say that?

    That's the question before. That's the question that dismantles all your BULLSHIT about what the teacher said, intended to say, why he said what he said.... yada... yada... etc., etc.

    When you learn how to formulate an argument/position that doesn't self-destruct under its own weight (by virtue of the very ideas and standards you articulate) then you come back and see how that works. Right now, all you're doing is embarrassing yourself.

    You beg to differ?? Answer my question:
    Now, where did the TWO PARTIES *both* say situation was "funny", a "padody" and "not racist at all"?

    List DAWSON'S statement(s).... <<< H E R E >>>
    List the students statement(s)... <<< H E R E >>>
  • quote:
    I'm letting you know I don't take this kids sob story seriously because he had obviously heard the word from his peer group before, without bringing up a huge scandal.
    Now, this clearly displays your lack of logic or anything that can credibly be called an objective view of the situation.

    The students "sob story" notwithstanding... There is still the clear, blatant, obvious and absurd SOB STORY of the teacher that you don't and haven't scrutinized. Instead, you talk about some IRRELEVANT BULLSHIT about "English Teachers" without addressing this English teacher and analyzing what he said and the clear SOB STORY he tried to pawn off.

    Again, you've shown how you have difficulty applying your standards objectively and across the board. Anyone objective looking at what the teacher in this case said can hardly find him any more credible than the student.

    But thanks for playing... DUMB!
    I've told you what I think, you've had a load of fun attacking that, now heres something you can attack and possibly get somewhere. Why I think it.

    The only uninterested party who is credible, is the one who's opinion decides nothing, and has nothing to gain or lose by the situation. We only have two opinions as to the teachers intent (excluding the teacher as he obviously has the most to lose and is directly involved).

    1) We have the negative opinion of someone who was in conflict with the teacher and, as such, has a potential motive to screw over the teacher by not bothering to consider what the teacher meant by the phrase. It is also likely he belongs to the group (#3) that does not consider intent when qualifying speech, rather, looking only at skin colour. This person is also intrinsically involved with the issue, placing him on the same ground as the teacher as far as involvement goes.

    2) We have the positive explanation of a student who had enough knowledge to make a judgement call in a personal situation, yet who was apparently uninvolved enough to allow his opinion to remain credible. His statement as to the teacher knowledge of the slang and ability to "rap" with the students is backed up by the video of the teacher explaining use of the word in various situations (including examples which I know, as a teenager exposed to the slang usage of the word, occur). It is possible that he was in conflict with the student in question, however the fact that his opinion matters little in the outcome offsets that to a degree.

    3) We have the statements of various other groups, which make no attempt to guess the teachers intent, but simply assume that everytime the word "nigga" is used by a white person, it is meant in a racist fashion. This is despite their own use of the word, infering that despite civil rights movements, the colour of your skin does matter as far as objective treatment in concerned. (To forestall argument, those who have been wrongfully treated deserve compensation, etc etc but this is true of all peoples, the situation simply occurs frequently among blacks. Skin colour is not a deciding factor at all)

    Only 1 and 2 offer opinions on intent (intent is important, the difference between murder and mansluaghter for example), while 3 simply says it is always wrong (like killing is considered always wrong). Of the two opinions on intent it is obvious which is more credible (#2, for the slow folks at home). This is why I think that the probability is that the teacher was not being racist. However I also recognise that the lower probability exists, and also that the word is not appropiate for ANYONE to use, so I support the teachers punishment. I do not support the leap to the conclusion that the teacher was being racist simply because there has been cases where the word has been applied in a racist fashion.

    THIS IS MY ONLY POINT! INTENT WAS THE ONLY THING I WAS DISCUSSING! EVER! My only thesis if you will. Everything I have said agrees and coincides with this. I'll repeat it again so it is very clear.

    The probability is that the teacher was not being racist. I also recognise that the lower probability exists and also that the word is innapropiate for ANYONE to use, so I support the teachers punishment. I do not support the leap to the conclusion that the teacher was being racist simply because there has been cases where the word has been applied in a racist fashion.

    So to the undefended part of my argument, why intent is important. Here's why. If the teacher was being intentionally racist, he is a racist, is ignorant, should not be allowed near anyone, and deserves treatment as such. If the teacher only meant to get a response out of the kid by insulting his grammer, then the teacher is somewhat of a jerk and a dumbass (in his method of doing so), and deserves treatment as such. If the teacher was honestly trying to make a connection with the kid (no, I don't think he was, I think he was being a jerk), then he's a naive dumbass and should be treated as such. In any case, the punishment will be the same because this is not an ideal situation where we can determine intent. Where intent does matter is in people's opinions of him. Noone likes to be wrongfully accused, no matter who you are. True, our opinion will not personally affect him, but it's probably good practice to be somewhat of a decent human being and give him the benefit of the doubt. Just because we are shocked at possibilities, does not make those possibilities automatically true, we still should give reason due process. Which is what I've doen to the best of my ability. It's also why the claims that all I'm trying to do is justify use of the n-word are completely meaningless along with the pompous whining about how white people can never accept that they can't do something.
    -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Useless rebuttal (noone will actually read it objectively before they respond) which will probably become the focus of the argument as opposed to the above

    "So Jaco ... Using your logic, you'd be okay with someone outside of your immediate peer circle, including an adult in authority telling you to sit down "Bitch" or "Fag" or "Asshole" ... Because you and they have heard it used in your peer circle, even by you? bs You'd run your little teenage Canadian ass to the nearest snitching post to have that adult's head."

    Nope, I'd tell him to go fuck himself, if the insult was that clear. Mutual blackmail you dumbass, only he would way have more to lose then me. However if he took a word I used often in a completely idiotic and senseless way (hint: there isn't one, the worst a teacher could do is critique my work ethic), then I would be embarrased as hell and sit down. In any case, if he used a term that was in use by me and my friends to address eachother (as was the word "nigga" in the students case), I'd say hi and sit down. If he insulted my ethnic background, (I'm primarily Dutch, have at it), I'd ignore it if it was groundless (as it would be, it's racism), maybe give it a chuckle if it was witty, and sit down. One question though, why was it neesecary to include the word Canadian? Completely unnessecary, unless of course you're a hypocritical piece of shit.

    "What part of cultural loaded word/phrase don't you understand?"

    Hmm, read my posts. I don't think the word was used in a racist context, I think it was a critique of language. Intent does matter. If someone is really that offended, and the person is more than a nameless face off the street, they should probably take the time to have a conversation to determine intent and also to make it clear that they don't appreciate the possible slur. We learned steps to problem solving in what, grade 3?

    "or maybe because you are white"

    That however probably was racist. You could have meant that no white person could fathom the depths of your sorrow, but I'm not betting on it. You could learn something from me simply not caring.

    "Sad, isn't it. Many white people have a hard time being told that they can't do something."

    Also could be taken as racist, but I'm going to assume you realise it's true of all people, including your own. Noone likes to be told that they can't do something they would like to do. Moving out of the general case, it is racist if you're assuming all white people want to be racist. If you honestly think that white people in general are more arrogant and demanding than your average human, I'd have to lump you in with the hypocritical shit there too.

    "IRRELEVANT!!!" (re: my defense against the accusation that I wanted to say "nigga")

    Relevant, only because your dumb asses accused me of it.

    How are the two cases of bigotry comparable? Well for starters...

    Bigot: a person obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his or her own opinions and prejudices

    The students involved take offense at the word only if white people say it. There is, as you say, history to explain why this occurs, however it is still only a reason behind the bigotry and not an excuse for the bigotry. Verdict, bigotry. You obviously think the english teacher was being racist, despite his knowledge of how the students peers used the word in everyday conversation, and from that, his knowledge of how to use it himself in everyday conversation as is the fashion. The connection is obvious, I have no clue how you didn't grasp it. If you want to argue the line between abstract and the applicable, perhaps you had better define clearly what that line is. Right now all your doing is repeating a grey area at me without qualifying it. In any case, this isn't exactly the cornerstone of my point of view, attacking this does nothing. If it makes you feel better to win, I'll admit that there are differences between the two, however the common aspect of prejudice still exists (but only if the teacher was being racist). Note I covered the outcome of the teacher not being racist by using the phrase "more racist." No contradiction.

    "Now, this clearly displays your lack of logic or anything that can credibly be called an objective view of the situation."

    Read: "I, Nmaginate, pronounce you illogical. Explanation will not be forthcoming."

    The teachers sob story? Its the exact same thing as what I've been saying, that he (probably) wasn't being racist. Why the hell did you need me to tell you that? His story agrees with everything I've said, I don't have to justify it, you just have to thouroughly read what I wrote, and objectively listen to what he said. They agree, I've been explaining his story the whole time, I shouldn't have to point that out to you.

    "Put simply... whatever the two parties involved in conversation perceive the meaning of a word to be, that's what the word means in that conversation."

    I fail to see the conflict. If the teacher was making a parody and the student failed to understand it, then there is nothing more than a misunderstanding. The fact that the student didn't understand (or chose to deliberately not understand), does not change the teachers intentions. Its a conditional statement, the concept works if and only if both parties do understand the meaning. Again, I shouldn't have to explain that.
    quote:
    I've told you what I think, you've had a load of fun attacking that, now heres something you can attack and possibly get somewhere. Why I think it.
    JACO! The whole point here is that YOU GETS NOWHERE WITH YOUR FAULTY LOGIC, idiotic Circular Reasoning and Anal ABSTRACTIONS!

    First, foremost and ALWAYS...
    THE TEACHER'S INTENT IS IRRELEVANT!

    INTENT defines nor determines NOTHING! INTENT is not the End All, Be All of anything. As the saying goes, The Road To Hell Is Paved With Good Intentions.

    The Teacher's INTENT is IRRELEVANT because:
    Put simply... whatever the two parties involved in conversation perceive the meaning of a word to be, that's what the word means in that conversation.

    Now, reconcile that or admit that you can go around and around and around and there is NO WAY for you to make your CIRCULAR REASONING work, much less stick.

    As far as YOUR #1... That's IRRELEVANT!! I already said:
    The students "sob story" notwithstanding... There is still the clear, blatant, obvious and absurd SOB STORY of the teacher that you don't and haven't scrutinized.

    So, no... You gets NOWHERE until you do that and, since you insist, analyze the Teacher's actual words, actions and behaviors to determine what was or wasn't his intent. Whether what he professed was actually "credible" or not, we can determine whether he was being TRUTHFUL, deceptive or otherwise less than forthcoming when he said/did what he said/did. And, more than anything, if you're going to try to gauge what his intent is... you have to talk about what he actually did and not just what you think or call his intent. And, no, "teachers do this all the time" says little about what DAWSON actually did.

    As for YOUR #2... Please... Get A GRIP!!
    What are all the Mental Gymnastics (CIRCULAR Reasoning somersaults) for when the information from the story clearly stated:
    District investigators interviewed several witnesses, who did not confirm Dawson's allegation about the student...

    Hmmm.... Curious term, huh? ***WITNESSES***
    Why what a strange thing and a strange "group" of people to consider as having credibility or actually being able to offer relevant information. Witnesses!!? Can you believe that? Witnesses?!?

    Hmmm... Nothing indicated that the statement given by Mr. Ray Underwood (black student) was a WITNESS STATEMENT - i.e. a person who actually was around and actually heard and/or saw the controversial conversation/incident.

    Hmmmm.... Funny how you placed a "positive" value on Mr. Underwood's statement without knowing that critical information. With that said, Mr. Underwood's statement is about as pertinent as Ricky Jones' (the Pan-African Studies chair) or, more comparably, SHAREKA MORROW'S. Now, how come you didn't list her statement as #4 or something? How come didn't give equal weight to her statement? Hers is as valuable as Underwood's when it comes to determining the teachers character (which is about all Underwood's is good for, given the information). How come you didn't include her statement in your not-so systematic consideration of DAWSON'S INTENT? She said:
    "I thought it was very offensive. If you're white, you don't say it."

    Now, the article was clear in saying she heard about the situation via secondhand information. The article, however, never indicates anything, one way or the other, about Mr. Underwood's knowledge of the situation - whether it was first hand or otherwise. And actually, Mr. Underwood's statement actually hinges on something I said a long time ago:
    Considering how this is the hip-hop era and how the term was supposedly used frequently AMONG THE STUDENTS... the teacher had ample time and reason to teach about the term.

    So, you've tried and have gotten NOWHERE with trying to claim that the INTENT was a Teaching Tool via "parody", etc. (*mocking* is much more accurate). Now, for some reason we haven't been privileged to your expositions explaining why the teacher after having presumably PLENTY of opportunities to make a Teaching Moment or draw up a lesson plan discussing the N-Word... NOTHING from you exploring WHY the teacher, whom you imbibe with such innocuous INTENT (with nothing but your own prejudices/biases to base your claim on)... NOTHING from you that says WHY he hadn't actually approached the situation in a serious, ADULT and academic manner which (hey!) as a teacher he is actually paid to do.

    Mr. Underwood's statement coincides with DAWSON'S own admission:
    quote:
    Dawson says students use the slang version of the word at Valley High School all the time. Dawson says as much as he doesn't like the word, he still used the slang version to feel more comfortable with black students. "Why is this word used so frequently? So I just don't understand it and I'm trying to understand it."
    Hmmm... Even after all that, instead of exerting an ounce of analytical power or time on WHY DAWSON NEEDED/WANTED TO FEEL [MORE] COMFORTABLE with Black Students and ever examining WHY when DAWSON suggested that he didn't or wanted to "understand" the use of the term... WHY DIDN'T HE DEVOTE REAL TEACHING TIME TOWARDS IT when he clearly would have had ample opportunity?? Especially given how students like Underwood were able to ascertain or assume that he "liked rappin'"???

    EVERYTHING YOU SUGGEST falls flat. That's what CIRCULAR REASONING does for you. NOTHING!

    quote:
    3) We have the statements of various other groups, which make no attempt to guess the teachers intent, but simply assume that everytime the word "nigga" is used by a white person, it is meant in a racist fashion.
    In this situation, given what is admitted by BOTH PARTIES, there is no way you can clean it up. THERE IS NO WAY FOR THE TEACHER'S STATEMENT, however it was "intended", can be anything other than IMPROPER and "RACIST" in effect.

    How about actually keeping up and actually addressing my points?

    I said and my point still remains that:
    No one is ignorant of the meaning or connotation of Ni@@a when said in a condescending manner or when trying to be snide or sly or sarcastic, much less when its used in a teacher-student relationship.

    DAWSON statement where he said he didn't like the term speaks volumes. He knew what the hell he was saying and he knew and had every reason to know how it was going to be received.

    Put simply... whatever the two parties involved in conversation perceive the meaning of a word to be, that's what the word means in that conversation.

    Okay! Now, what we clearly have he is the student, Chavers, PERCEIVING Dawson's statement as "racist", condescending, improper or whatever. Now, uphold your standard and honor the PERCEPTIONS of BOTH PARTIES. You can't justify giving one "The Benefit Of A Doubt" when you have no basis other than your AVERSION to being on the wrong side of a "double-standard" that informs your ignorant, decontextualized, off-centered and devoid of logic views.


    quote:
    I support the teachers punishment. I do not support the leap to the conclusion that the teacher was being racist simply because there has been cases where the word has been applied in a racist fashion.
    And your "support" of the teacher's punishment changes nothing and serves as no disclaimer or caveat. It is you who have been proven to make the leaps in logic as you try, feebly, to land safely after performing all those twisted logical flips your CIRCULAR REASONING forces you to do.

    Most importantly...
    WHO GIVES A FUCK what you do and don't support??

    quote:
    KWELI said:

    Since you clearly don't understand the concept, stop trying to speak as an authority.
    I'll put it in my own words, WHAT YOU THINK IS NOT A STANDARD FOR ANYTHING, as proven. And you are NO AUTHORITY and, as such, NOTHING YOU SAY has any automatic credibility or authority vested in it. When you talk about what you do and don't support, that shit presupposes:

    [1] That we give a shit; and
    [2] That what you support matters and is suppose to mean something; that you or rather what you say or how you see things is important when in truth, all you're doing is trying to assert your self-importance of which you have NONE here. No credibility on GP here.

    So, again... WHO GIVES A FUCK what you support?
    Who the fuck are you? When and where did anybody here say your idea about this matters (more than anyone else's or becomes the standard by which the opinions of others are judged)??

    You might want to take a long, hot, soapy shower... You're smelling yourself. And that funk is strong!


    quote:
    No one likes to be wrongfully accused, no matter who you are. True, our opinion will not personally affect him, but it's probably good practice to be somewhat of a decent human being and give him the benefit of the doubt.
    Give him the benefit of the doubt... WHY???

    That's something you obviously can't see "supporting" when it came to the student? You give an ADULT... AN ADULT... and, worst yet, A TEACHER! ...An English Teacher (someone who we agreed should know something about language)... THE BENEFIT OF A DOUBT??? lol

    Wait a minute... What did you say about the student?
    quote:
    upset "I'm letting you know I don't take this kids sob story seriously because he had obviously heard the word from his peer group before, without bringing up a huge scandal. upset
    BLATANT BIAS there, JACO...

    That Chavers had "heard the word from his peer group before" is IRRELEVANT. What part of a TEACHER-STUDENT relationship don't you understand? They are NOT peers. It is IMPROPER and, yes, in this case RACIST for the teacher to use a KNOWN FORBIDDEN TERM for any purpose it could have been used for in that situation.

    The way Chavers would have used or heard the N-Word used amongst his peers is fundamentally different than anything the teacher could have said because HE WAS A TEACHER stupid!! Dawson was not and is not Chavers' peer.

    But thanks for showing your prejudice in clear and convincing fashion.
    quote:
    We still should give reason due process.
    And, using that CIRCULAR version, you have not done so.



    Now, say this (below) real slow and witness for yourself how you have abandoning sound reasoning trying to assert and defend your weird and twisted (and untenable) CIRCULAR REASONING:
    No one likes to be told that they can't do something they would like to do.

    Now, since you're in to telling WHY... LOL
    Why do you suppose White people "would like to" call Black people "ni@@er", "ni@@a", etc.?

    And... NO ONE SAID THIS! STAY ON TOPIC!!
    Frown It is racist if you're assuming all white people want to be racist. Frown

    And, again, you pretend to be an authority as if what you say is so, just because you say so. Please stop smelling yourself and get off the low-tech BULLSHIT! No one said anything about ALL WHITE people. IDIOT!! This situation, when you want to talk about probability, can't possibly incorporate ALL WHITE people for ALL WHITE people aren't driven to trip over the so-called "double-standard" of who can use and who can't use the N-Word. So what are you talking about?

    quote:
    The students involved take offense at the word only if white people say it. There is, as you say, history to explain why this occurs, however it is still only a reason behind the bigotry and not an excuse for the bigotry. Verdict, bigotry.
    That SHIT does not logically compute. More of your pathetic CIRCULAR REASONING... Go on now... Read up and take some lessons or something. You're just not capable of discussing things here. Your reasoning, YOUR CIRCULAR REASONING leaves a lot to be desired.

    But, go ahead... Actually translate that bullshit into real, intelligible, coherent ENGLISH!!

    quote:
    You obviously think the english teacher was being racist, despite his knowledge of how the students peers used the word in everyday conversation, and from that, his knowledge of how to use it himself in everyday conversation as is the fashion.
    You obviously DON'T KNOW WHAT THE HELL YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT!!

    There is no "everyday" conversation where a teacher can effectively speak as a student's peer [does]. Now, what part of that do you find hard to grasp?

    Such speech, such communication is inherently problematic and IMPROPER and the teachers INTENTIONAL desire to "communicate" TO BLACK STUDENTS (note, he did not say the rainbow, hip-hop generation) is, itself, RACIALIZED. So, by your own abstract definitions what the teacher said was RACIST!!

    quote:
    If it makes you feel better to win, I'll admit that there are differences between the two
    STFU!!! You said: "Bigotry is bigotry." By saying that you were emphatically saying (and unequivocally saying, then) that THE TWO ARE THE EXACT SAME or rather amount to the same exact thing with there being no significant differences.

    Beyond that, given your poor displaying of coherent and comprehendable ENGLISH!!! You have not establish how the student's or any Black person's idea that NO WHITE PERSON CAN SAY "NI@@A" amounts to "bigotry" or "racism". Hmmm...

    quote:
    I've been explaining his story the whole time
    BULLSHIT!!! You've been displaying your personal prejudices and injecting your ideas and transposing them on the teachers without no regard for the teacher's actual story.

    quote:
    I fail to see the conflict.
    And that truth is not contingent on you acknowledging it as such.

    You clearly did not privilege the perceived meanings of BOTH PARTIES equally. That is clear.
    quote:
    If the teacher was making a parody
    See... that's exactly what you have transposed and imposed without cause or reason. Did the teacher say or suggest he was making "parody."???

    That conflicts with the idea that he was merely using youthful slang as he tried to relate to Chavers in ways his peers do. Certainly his peers aren't about making parody.

    NEXT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    Last edited {1}
    quote:
    3) ...everytime the word "nigga" is used by a white person, it is meant in a racist fashion. This is despite their own use of the word, infering that despite civil rights movements, the colour of your skin does matter as far as objective treatment in concerned.
    JACO, know the hell you're talking about before you open your mouth.

    Again, THE INTENT or "how it is meant" coming from a White person is IRRELEVANT!!!

    Second, Black people use of the term has nothing to do with how Black people should regard White people's use of it. There is NO SITUATION (or a very .0000001% few) where a White person can say the word and it not be inherently problematic.

    As they say, Black people use it AMONGST THEMSELVES as a term of endearment/affection. Simply put, White people (most if not all) just aren't and can't be in those circles of endearment/affection. The TEACHER definitely wasn't.
    quote:
    Dawson... used the slang version to feel more comfortable with black students.
    Obviously he had neither earned nor was he privy to those circles of endearment/affection. Given that, without those bona fides, he had no place or reason. Given that, you have no place and no reason to think there is some way for a White person, hell any White person, can or should be so privileged as to have equal access and equal use of such terms of "endearment/affection", much less this teacher.

    So, once again... The Teacher is not the PEER of the student. Therefore the type of affection/endearment, by definition, cannot be the same. So there is no way for the use to be the same.

    Also, those bonds of affection/endearment are AUTHENTIC. Not artificial. For the teacher to try to "relate" or "speak the language" of his BLACK STUDENTS (i.e. RACIALIZED focused), he is admitting that his connection or desire to connect (since you endow him with that intent which makes no sense, unless you're openly saying that it was "RACIST" in nature, because it was clearly RACIALIZED)... his desire to connect is ARTIFICIAL - i.e. not a natural, organic progression from an actual relationship and intimacy that grants those endearing privileges.

    Now, onto the CIVIL RIGHTS confusion of yours...

    First, don't you ever fix your mouth... don't you ever place yourself as The Interpreter and Authority on what the Civil Rights Movement was about and what it is suppose to mean to Black people.

    And please illustrate how being able to call some one "Ni@@a" is a Civil Rights issue? I mean seriously? How does this relate?

    What is the "OBJECTIVE TREATMENT" in this whole WHITES CAN'T SAY THE N-WORD thingy that amounts to anything worth mentioning in the same conversation as the Civil Rights Movement?

    Seriously? What Civil Right is being violated when we say WHITES CAN'T and BETTER NOT SAY THE N-WORD?

    What is the harsh, unfair and DISADVANTAGING treatment that's being visited/imposed on Whites by making the N-Word off limits?

    If you don't have a serious, logical, reasoned and functional answer for that then you better think about the BS you say before you let it come out your mouth. That's the problem with your silly ABSTRACT, idiotic "Bigotry is Bigotry" type of thinking. It is flawed and fallacious to it's core.
    quote:
    I'll admit that there are differences between the two...
    And, FYI, it matters not what you are willing to admit. No validation or acknowledgement was requested much less needed from you for me to know and be certain that there are clear, objective and meaningful DIFFERENCES between two things you tried to group into one little idiotic (and inappropriate) little catch-term.

    quote:
    (To forestall argument, those who have been wrongfully treated deserve compensation, etc etc but this is true of all peoples, the situation simply occurs frequently among blacks. Skin colour is not a deciding factor at all)
    And what the FUCK was this? Stay on topic, deal with what is said and what is being contended with or STFU!!!
    (That's SHUT THE FUCK UP... in case you didn't know.)

    But while you're talking, let's get to the nitty gritty. What is the OBJECTIVE WRONG being done to Whites? How are Whites HARMED by not being able to say the "N-Word"?

    Look up, become acquainted with, go to bed and sleep with the knowledge of what the FALLACY OF EQUIVOCATION is. At every turn, with your play on the idea of Bigotry and your evoking of the Civil Rights Movement... at every turn you have turned logic on its head, perverted the very meaning of the terms -- and, in fact, implied DIFFERENT and incompatible meanings for Black ["Bigotry" vs. White BIGOTRY and the DISCRIMINATION or Objective, Unfair and HARMFUL/DISADVANTAGING "Treatment" Against Whites vs. the clear history of measureable, significant and profound, material Racial Discrimination Against Africans/African-Americans.

    You have tried to pawn off some idiotic SLEIGHT OF HAND LOGIC via abstractions even when you know the profound and fundamental DIFFERENCES...

    But, go ahead... Tell us all:
    HOW ARE WHITES HARMED BY NOT BEING ABLE TO SAY "NIGGER"?

    If an official U.S. law was made that banned the N-Word and made it something that only Whites had to abide by (not saying it)... HOW WOULD WHITES BE HARMED??
    "Very mistaken"

    When Rickey Moore's friends mourned his death last month, they built a wooden memorial with a cardboard sign for handwritten tributes from friends. One of the first tributes read: "To my nigga forever. We miss you already."

    A more recent tribute says: "We gon miss you my nigga."

    Yet the white Cincinnati police officer who shot Mr. Moore was disciplined five years earlier for using the same n-word variation.

    Officer Thomas Haas says he was trying to subdue a difficult prisoner at the Hamilton County Justice Center in November 1996, when he pulled a knit stocking cap over the man's face and called him "nigga."

    "Officer Haas claims he used the term in a friendly manner and that he was not attempting to be disrespectful," a police report of the incident says. "He also claims this is an acceptable term used by persons on the street, primarily drug dealers. He states that he is trying to be a good community police officer by "acting the role' and by presenting himself in a manner close to the persons he serves."

    Capt. Kenneth Jones, the police supervisor who wrote the report, disagreed with Officer Haas.

    "Officer Haas is under the belief that in order to communicate with members of the community, it is OK to talk exactly as they do," Capt. Jones wrote. "He is very mistaken.

    "We must be aware that there are various cultures within our community where certain language may be acceptable within that culture, but not by outsiders."



    http://www.enquirer.com/editions/2001/08/05/loc_1the_n-word.html


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