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Yup, ten whole days, and diversity training. He told the student, to sit down Nigga, not using the racially insensitive word NIGGER he said NIGGA as you will see in the story.

Can you lend a Nigga a pencil! This is the teacher who teaches the English with honors class.

NIGGA
-------------------------
There are Negroes who will never fight for freedom. There are Negroes who will seek profit for themselves from the struggle. There are even some Negroes who will cooperate with the oppressors. The hammer blows of discrimination, poverty, and segregation must warp and corrupt some. No one can pretend that because a people may be oppressed, every individual member is virtuous and worthy. Martin Luther King

More to come later! Your Brother Faheem
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Valley Traditional High School is in the middle of a racial controversy. A teacher used a racial epithet towards a student. The word is only six letters long but the impact is far reaching.

We do want to warn you that some of the language in this story is strong and may offend some people, but since this story is not just about the "n" word it's also about the pronunciation, we've decided to leave it in the story for you to decide.
    Murphy: "What did he say to you specifically?"

    Chavers: "Sit down, nigger."
Keysean Chavers is a freshman at Valley, a Boy Scout, a football player, a member of the ROTC, an honor roll student. He was hanging around his teacher's classroom door in December. The teacher, Paul Dawson, told him to sit down. Dawson says Keysean used the word first.

"I was just kind of stunned for a second and I said, 'Well then, get away from the door, niggaz.' I repeated the same insult because that was sort of what I was trained to do." The school district says that's not what they trained Dawson to do. "He tried to say I said it and I didn't say it and no one else in the class said I said it, because I didn't," says Keysean.

Documents from the school investigation show that several of the students interviewed from Valley did not hear Keysean say the "n" word first. Dawson says students use the slang version of the word at Valley High School all the time. He says "nigger" is a racial slur but says students use "nigga" as often as they say "dude" or "hey, man." Dawson says as much as he doesn't like the word, he still used the slang version to feel more comfortable with black students. "Why is this word used so frequently? So I just don't understand it and I'm trying to understand it," Dawson says. "I need help."
    Murphy: "What kind of example are you setting for your students if you are using a word that you don't want them to use?"

    Dawson: "Upon reflection, that's not good."
Dawson was suspended for 10 days without pay from January 9 to January 23 and has to go to diversity training. He says he's learned from this and hopes others think twice before using the epithet. "I will never say any form of nigga. I'm cured of that."

Dawson says he is sorry for the way things were handled, but Keysean says he is not looking for any apologies. "Apologizing isn't going to change the fact that it happened and he's not been punished," he says. What constitutes punishment in Keysean's mind? "Him not having his job anymore."

Dawson says he wants there to be a steadfast policy against using the word. Right now it is dealt with on a case-by-case basis. Keysean is still in Paul Dawson's classroom.

Dawson has been with the district for 20 years. As part of our investigation we found that English teacher Paul Dawson was suspended in 1994, back when he worked at southern high school. According to documents, Dawson directed a student to place a sign on another students back that said, "I am gay." Afterwards, he was assigned to non-instructional duties pending the investigation and he was not supposed to return to Southern High School. The next day he ignored the order and went to Southern anyway. Shortly afterwards, Dawson refused to turn in his grade book to investigators. Dawson was suspended for five days without pay and had to go through an employee assistance program. Dawson also had a letter of reprimand that same year for selling candy to his students.

The school district says even with this most recent incident of him using the word "nigga" toward a student, this veteran teacher will get to keep his job. "It's understandable the frustration and the anger about a situation like this and we sincerely apologize because it is not our mode of operation, but we do believe that we have sent a very strong message," says Jefferson County Public Schools spokesperson Lauren Roberts.

Dawson says he will appeal his 10-day suspension to try and get it off his record. He did not want to talk about his past suspension when we met with him. His latest suspension is the longest suspension the district has ever given a teacher.

Dawson will go before district administrators at the end of the month to appeal his unpaid suspension.



http://www.whas11.com/topstories/stories/WHAS11_TOP_NWord.64363ef1.html
"It's understandable the frustration and the anger about a situation like this and we sincerely apologize because it is not our mode of operation, but we do believe that we have sent a very strong message," says Jefferson County Public Schools spokesperson Lauren Roberts.---article

This the message literally 'sent' to the public by the school district's afministration.

Spokespersons deliver the message of those responsible for the subject being addressed.

Here again, we are lookiing at the parents who elect this administration to run their schools.

Clearly, the children know this language is wrong. Clearly, the teacher knows the language is wrong. Clearly, the administration knnows this language is wrong.

They all react to the wrongness AFTER someone yells 'Foul!'

That school district operates under the direct licensing and supervision of a State agency.

What a mess.


PEACE

Jim Chester
quote:
Originally posted by Nmaginate:
Let me play Murphy...
    Murphy [Nmag]: What kind of shit is this: He said it first??
    So you're on the same level as the student?

    Dawson: That's how I was [potty] trained.
    I need help. [I just sh*t in my pants.]


lol laugh lol

I like your version better. It's more honest.

I am amazed that an grown, educated man thought he was going to make it all better with the ages old Kindergardner defense of "He started it!"

I don't know what's worse, the fact that he said that to a student or his lame assed attempt at defending it.
I personally dont see why we are surprised.....

Just think, now this kid has to sit in this mans honors class.......and pull a grade. (it happens everyday) Seems like no matter what.....the kid loses, and he knows this..

But then again.....this is life, and it amazes me how some blacks/AAs move on in life, without seeing this or caring.
It's actually fairly obvious what the most probable situation was. "Nigga" is an widely used slang word amongst non-racist teenagers, I know because I am a teenager. I for one do not have any trouble believing that this word is in frequent use by students in the class in question. In that case, to use the word in a mocking manner, to critique the language which is often coupled with a specific attitude, one which requires teachers to have to remind students to do simple tasks like sitting down at an appropriate time, (the kid didn't seem stupid from the information given, ergo an attitude of indifference), would be perfectly normal. It would be very much like a situation where a student upon skipping a test because of sheer lack of interest says: "I forgot there was a test that day guy," and a teacher responds "Too bad, you get a zero... guy."

For those pedants among you who would quibble the point that the student did not say the word before the teacher did, thus attempting to negate the argument of sarcastic response in a disciplinary fashion, let me remind you that this is slang we are discussing. Imagine people who say "nigga" as often as some people say "like," then think about the probability that the student said it before entering into conversation with the teacher, thus provoking comment.

To draw a parallel to slang, the word "juke" used to be slang meaning to have sex, thus the word "jukebox" was come upon as they were present in, to put it bluntly, whorehouses. For those of you who have their heads up their asses, (you don't know who you are), I think i'll start a mini-scandal about the word jukebox.
=============================
The Slang Parallel
==============================
Friend: Wow, you have a jukebox in your house? I wish I had one.
Me: (Incensed) DO YOU KNOW WHAT THAT WORD MEANS!
Friend: umm....
Me: YOU JUST SAID I LIVED IN A WHOREHOUSE!
Friend: *stunned silence*

the sarcasm continues...
===========================
The Second Mimic Since Breakfast
===========================
Me: If you are all that concerned about the language, care, first of all, that "AA" kids are using the term, and secondly about a culture where a teacher has to mimic his students [potty] language to grab their attention for a few seconds.

Misc. Angry Person: yaddayadda poor kid yaddayadda hearsay always reliable (implied) yaddayadda. [I wish I could sh*t my pants, but my heads too far up my ass].

Me: *stunned silence*

========================================
Space/Time? Einstein's Got Nothing On Me
========================================
Misc Angry Person: They reacted after someone cried foul. If someone else had have cried foul earlier, then they... hold on a second...

Me: *stunned silence*

========================================
The Black Helicopters, Roswell, and You
======================================
Misc Angry Person: If a subordinate does something wrong, it PROVES all the leadership above that position also is doing the same thing wrong. (Ill defined link suggesting racist government policies).

Me: *stunned silence*

---------------

It isn't hard to see what you expected to see, especially if that's all you're looking for - Anonymous
quote:
It would be very much like a situation where a student upon skipping a test because of sheer lack of interest says: "I forgot there was a test that day guy," and a teacher responds "Too bad, you get a zero... guy."
"GUY" and "Ni@@a" aren't comparable and no teacher with a grasp of LANGUAGE and common sense, much less a critiquing, discriminating grasp, would be so stupid as to view the two as comparable for discipline or otherwise.

quote:
For those pedants among you who would quibble the point that the student did not say the word before the teacher did...
So, I guess you're given to the idiotic idea that the teacher is somehow justified when/if "The student said it first!"

Unreal...

Ni@@a is not just another word in the English language. It's not comparable to "guy" or "like", slang or not.
quote:
the word "juke" used to be slang meaning to have sex,
No one is ignorant of the meaning or connotation of Ni@@a when said in a condescending manner or when trying to be snide or sly or sarcastic, much less when its used in a teacher-student relationship.

This was very clear:
MURPHY [Nmag]: What kind of shit is this: He said it first??
So you're on the same level as the student?


The teacher definitely wasn't ignorant and Ni@@a is nowhere near as archiac as "jukebox" = whorehouse.

Try again...
quote:
Controversial Teacher Reassigned

(LOUISVILLE, Feb. 6th, 2006) A Louisville high school drama teacher was escorted out of school Monday as Jefferson County Public School officials investigate whether or not he should lose his job. In December Paul Dawson called a student the "N-word" after the student used the word with him. Dawson was suspended for 10 days in January from Valley Traditional High...

On Monday, Dawson hoped students would join him in taking a stand with a walkout...
quote:
Dawson said in a written statement that the student first used the word toward him and [said] "[I] responded with the same disrespectful term that he hurled my way. I said: 'Well then, niggah, you get away from my window.' "

...The student, whose name was not released, denied to school officials that he used the term first. He alleged that Dawson said it while trying to get him to sit down. District investigators interviewed several witnesses, who did not confirm Dawson's allegation about the student, who wasn't disciplined.

Officials said the teacher's use of the word in any circumstance was a serious offense.

"It's insensitive, inappropriate language, and it's conduct unbecoming a teacher," district spokeswoman Lauren Roberts said.

...Several Valley High students said yesterday that the word often is used among black students, and sometimes whites, as a term of affection. But they were surprised that a teacher had said it.

"I thought it was very offensive," said Shareka Morrow, 17, who heard about the incident secondhand. "If you're white, you don't say it."

Ray Underwood, 18, another black student, said Dawson is a good teacher who "likes rappin' " and using urban slang and most likely did not "try to hurt feelings."

Ricky Jones, chairman of the Department of Pan-African Studies at the University of Louisville, said some African Americans view the word "nigger" as a derogatory term and "niggah" as a term of affection.

But the latter can be offensive to some, and there's heated debate about whether the prevalence of the term in any form is acceptable, he said. Some argue its use by blacks helps negate the word's derogatory power.

But few condone its use by white people, Jones said -- especially by adults who should fully understand the word's historical context.

http://www.courier-journal.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AI...02030403/1008/NEWS01
quote:
Originally posted by Jaco:
"Nigga" is an widely used slang word amongst non-racist teenagers, I know because I am a teenager.


Yeah, ok....

Youre making this sound as though its ok for you and your (non racist, whatever that means) friends to use this word.

Think again!!!

I dont use it, and you or this teacher using this word, is out of line!!!
Any english teacher knows that "LANGUAGE" is a dynamic syntax, and also that ideas are the essence of communication. Put simply, that means that whatever the two parties involved in conversation perceive the meaning of a word to be, that's what the word means in that conversation.

If both parties concieve "nigga" as an informal form of address, then that's what it means in that conversation, DESPITE ANY OUTSIDERS OPINION!

This means that the student saying "nigga" first would justify the teacher saying it because THE WORD WOULD HAVE A COMPLETELY DIFFERENT MEANING IN THE CONTEXT OF THAT CONVERSATION! The english teacher didn't have to be ignorant of the meaning of the n-word to communicate a completely different meaning of the same word.

So, the final summation.
1) The student, when using this word, did not mean it as a racist remark.
2) If the above is true, and the student used the word in the presence of the teacher, this means there is a high probability that the word, when used by a teacher, ALSO was not racist. If offense was meant (as is probable) it was aimed at the student's vocabulary NOT at his ethnic background.

QED, if you somehow disagree with anything I've said, you're having trouble with connecting two very basic syllogisms.

To clear the record, I do not disagree with the teachers punishment, it was completely nessecary to prevent actual racial discrimination from occuring. You will notice the word probability scattered throughout both posts, because I do recognise there could have been racist intent. My main point is that there probably wasn't, and people should recognise that even though he has to be punished.

What I do have some trouble with, is the tendency for people to cry wolf at any sign of possible discrimination (racist, sexist, you name it). It is completely natural that as people become less bigoted, they will unwittingly make remarks they do not realise the full portent of. To condemn them for this is literally retarded (in the sense of social growth). Show some common sense people, you have no idea where the students are coming from when they say "nigga," but you have the experience to realise innapropiate words become slang. Ask a dog breeder what "bitch" means, ask an extremely elderly farmer what "ass" means. "Nigga" is commonly used slang, whether you like it or not. Deal with it and adjust your perceptions of the word when you used in that context. You had to be flexible to get your head where it was in the first place, surely you wriggle around a little to be, at minimum, understanding of the fact.

On a personal note, Nmaginate, you score 0 for reader comprehension. The word jukebox never has meant whorehouse, but in the sense of the analogy given, could be misconstrued as such by an illogical and over-sensitive person. Way to completely miss the point in a manner that provided a telling example to support it. Yes the meaning of the word "juke" has become archaic to most, just as the word "nigga" has become archaic to some.

**EDIT: Response to pst**

In response to qty's post before this, all I was saying was that people use this word. Nowhere did I say I used it, I only stated that I was in an environment to know that people did use it. You're right up there with Nmaginate on the reader comprehension. Non racist means not racist, there is no way to make it any more clear.

**Edit: keep sneaking extra posts in on me**

Regarding the article psted by NMaginate after his piece responding to my initial post.

'Ray Underwood, 18, another black student, said Dawson is a good teacher who "likes rappin' " and using urban slang and most likely did not "try to hurt feelings."'

The general consensus is that its wrong because only black people are allowed to use the n-word. That is a load of crap. If people look at the color of someone's skin before deciding whether to take offense at a remark, all it shows is that they are at least as racist, and from the comment made regarding the teachers intent, probably more so than the teacher. Don't feed me that crap, bigotry is bigotry. People who accept this as fair and unbiased, "the higher moral ground" so to speak, are hypocrites plain and simple, only because it is obvious this language is in use by the student involved and his peers.

For those who have not yet responded, I apologise for coming off as rude, and ask that you thouroughly read and consider my point of view with a degree of rationality before responding. I always welcome reasonable discussion.
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quote:
Originally posted by qty226:
Jaco

My reading comprehension skills are air tight...so drop the sarcasm.

I live in a white community, and i do not hear, 'non blacks' using this word.

Out of everything that you said.........it boils down to this, justification.

I hear whites call each other, redneck, cracka, etc. Should i therefore use these terms when addressing another black person?

"Yo redneck, Yo cracka".

Doesnt make much sense huh?

The bottom line is, bigotry, and racism is still running rampant in this country.....and no matter what, its a word........that YOU dont have to use.
Air tight? You read that post and thought I used the n-word in everyday conversation and that I condoned its use as a racist term discribing blacks (or in any situation). All I did in my post was offer the point of view that the teacher probably was not a racist. You might have a leak somewhere.

I don't object to people who disagree with using the n-word, in fact I agree with them. What I disagree with is the point of view, first of all that the teacher was being racist, when it seems like he was just trying to make a connection with a kid who wasn't listening. I object to this, frankly because it's insulting to be labelled a racist, more insulting from my point of view, than any racial profiling. I think this way because racial profiling is completely meaningless while being labelled a racist portrays you as a complete dumbass. If the teacher in question was not being racist then he is probably extremely irritated to the point of exasperation at being known as such, and this leads right into my next point. The double standard possessed by many people (excluding qty as she has pointed out), is that it's ok to use the n-word if you are AA and racist if you aren't. As I've said before, if you look at someones skin color to decide whether to take offense at something, you are a racist, plain and simple. If you condone this, you're a racist. If you label someone without proper knowledge, then you're a bigot. If you object to racism but condone blacks using the n-word while condemning whites, then you are a bigot AND a hypocrite.

And one last repartee, before someone else posts...

"The bottom line is, bigotry, and racism is still running rampant in this country.....and no matter what, its a word........that YOU dont have to use."

I'm Canadian.
Jaco, while it would be difficult to disagree that words used in a conversation between two people carries the meaning as understood by the two people conversing, the impact of their language, the words they are using reaches beyond those two. This can be demonstrated by one not being able to speak about a bomb on an airplane. Surely if I turned to a friend on a plane and said "this song I am listening to is the "bomb" he would know what I mean but how will it be perceived by others, should they adjust to the popular use of the word by Black folk or should I have chosen a better word considering the time and place of my comments. Does it matter that the word has a completely different meaning based on the context in which it was used by me while speaking with a friend, of course not, I know better and popular culture is no excuse.
quote:
Put simply, that means that whatever the two parties involved in conversation perceive the meaning of a word to be, that's what the word means in that conversation.

If both parties concieve "nigga" as an informal form of address, then that's what it means in that conversation, DESPITE ANY OUTSIDERS OPINION!
Maybe you ought to think about your futile attempts at logic before you publish it.

Obviously, the meaning "in that conversation" has everything to do with how the "meaning" was received by the student. No matter how the student used the word, the meaning when thrown back at the student, given the way English works, need not be the same. And clearly the student didn't perceive or conceive or receive it as the same.

So, again, think before you throw soft-balls of illogic around. Obviously "both parties" were not cool with the teachers use of the term. Tone, non-verbals and, yes, sarcasm in the English language alters the meaning of words.

"You are so stupid!" lol
"You are so STUPID!!!" upset

Frankly, there is no way in a Two-Way Conversation (which you pretend to be talking) that you can discount how the student perceived, conceived and received the teachers statement. And speaking about READING COMPREHENSION:

District investigators interviewed several witnesses, who did not confirm Dawson's allegation about the student...

So, not only are you trying to forward the childish premise of the teacher ("He Said It First!") but you're trying to argue in support of his idiotic defense and the statement itself when there is nothing but the teachers questionable statement to go on.

quote:
On a personal note, Nmaginate, you score 0 for reader comprehension.

...Yes the meaning of the word "juke" has become archaic to most, just as the word "nigga" has become archaic to some.
Like I said, there is NO COMPARISON and there is little that's "archaic" about the meaning of the N-Word particularly with an English teacher who is, as you suggest, suppose to know something about "LANGUAGE."

quote:
To clear the record, I do not disagree with the teachers punishment, it was completely nessecary to prevent actual racial discrimination from occuring.
When you know what the hell you're talking about then come back with your half-cocked ideas.

And "probability" won't save you. As noted above, you yourself have had to admit that you're not making proper, equivalent comparisons. Like I said:
No one is ignorant of the meaning or connotation of Ni@@a when said in a condescending manner or when trying to be snide or sly or sarcastic, much less when its used in a teacher-student relationship.

The teacher said:
"[I] responded with the same disrespectful term that he hurled my way."

The teacher called the term DISRESPECTFUL. Now what is the basis for your comments here?
quote:
So, the final summation.
1) The student, when using this word, did not mean it as a racist remark.
2) If the above is true, and the student used the word in the presence of the teacher, this means there is a high probability that the word, when used by a teacher, ALSO was not racist. If offense was meant (as is probable) it was aimed at the student's vocabulary NOT at his ethnic background.
Why, even when presented with what the teacher, himself, said about the use of the term... WHY ARE YOU talking about what it "probably" meant or was used for?

In either event, using the term WITH A KNOWN VALUE of having a different perceived meaning and acceptability depending on the race of the sender... In any event, an English teacher, an adult, a conscious, thinking individual could easily think of other ways to make a teaching moment (if that was his intent) out of the incident without traversing the lunacy of using a forbidden term. A KNOWN FORBIDDEN TERM!

And, considering how this is the hip-hop era and how the term was supposedly used frequently AMONG THE STUDENTS... the teacher had ample time and reason to teach about the term. Instead, he said some BS like this:
quote:
Dawson says students use the slang version of the word at Valley High School all the time. He says "nigger" is a racial slur but says students use "nigga" as often as they say "dude" or "hey, man." Dawson says as much as he doesn't like the word, he still used the slang version to feel more comfortable with black students. "Why is this word used so frequently? So I just don't understand it and I'm trying to understand it," Dawson says. "I need help."
Basically, the revelation there is that he DID NOT feel comfortable [enough] around Blacks, for whatever reason. Reasons that obviously had a lot to do with his idoitic use of the term and his equally idiotic defense for his use of it.
quote:
The general consensus is that its wrong because only black people are allowed to use the n-word. That is a load of crap. If people look at the color of someone's skin before deciding whether to take offense at a remark, all it shows is that they are at least as racist, and from the comment made regarding the teachers intent, probably more so than the teacher. Don't feed me that crap, bigotry is bigotry.
And that's what caused the teacher to be in the position he's in. Idiotic EQUIVOCATING and DECONTEXTUALIZING both the meaning and the life of the word.

Just as racist = JUST AS DUMB!!

Even there, there is NO COMPARISON. Somehow, you find it hard to compare like things. And none of this is contingent on it being acceptable to you.

Bigotry is Bigotry is IGNORANCE is IGNORANCE.
That stuff might go for logic where you come from but that BS isn't working here. You can't strip a word of it's CONTEXT, history or anything else that has developed with the life of the word, no matter how much it flies against your idiotic ABSTRACT Abstractions.

Yes, Bigotry Is Bigotry in the ABSTRACT, huh?
Now, let's see you demonstrate how the two are comparable in ACTUALITY. So, yes, let's here you detail how the two are equally or similarly "bigoted" in real life use, impact and effect.
quote:
Ni@@a is not just another word in the English language. It's not comparable to "guy" or "like", slang or not.

quote:
You can't strip a word of it's CONTEXT, history or anything else that has developed with the life of the word, no matter how much it flies against your idiotic ABSTRACT Abstractions.


ek *faints*... and Brotha you know EXACTLY why. I told ya ass about that back in '05! cabbage appl bsm laugh
Frenchy, you ain't told me schitz!!

We can go back to 2005 and you'll still come up short. RHETORIC ain't schitz, Frenchy. Wait, let me rephrase that: Your RHETORIC from 2005 wasn't bout schitz!

So I maintain the same then as I do now. Someone White saying "Ni@@a", especially how this teacher went about saying it, given the reasons he expressed, is a CONTEXTUAL situation and, two, the way the word is received is paramount. There is a HISTORY there and a way the life of the word has developed especially in those types of relationships.

So, go ahead, and tell what your broke reasoning conveyed to me in 2005. You certainly had nothing to say about CONTEXT then. Yours, too, was an ABSTRACTION pretty much on the same idiotic order (idiotic ABSOLUTE order) as JACO's "Bigotry is Bigotry" non-thinking.

http://africanamerica.org/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/791602...631094733#2631094733

http://africanamerica.org/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/79160213/m/1291028282/p/1

http://africanamerica.org/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/791602...931033423#1931033423
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quote:
For those pedants among you who would quibble the point that the student did not say the word before the teacher did, thus attempting to negate the argument of sarcastic response in a disciplinary fashion, let me remind you that this is slang we are discussing. Imagine people who say "nigga" as often as some people say "like," then think about the probability that the student said it before entering into conversation with the teacher, thus provoking comment.

To draw a parallel to slang, the word "juke" used to be slang meaning to have sex, thus the word "jukebox" was come upon as they were present in, to put it bluntly, whorehouses. For those of you who have their heads up their asses, (you don't know who you are), I think i'll start a mini-scandal about the word jukebox.

___________________________________________

There is no excuse in the world that an educated professional, and teacher on top of that, in charge of teaching and educating minors has for using this word. He can attempt to explain and excuse his use of the word all he wants, but he knows, and we all know that it was his intent to be able to call an African American a nigger and get away with it. I'll bet he's never called a 6ft-200+lb African American adult male 'nigga'---I'll be his better judgment would let him know right away not to call a grown man at least his size or less that word, so it seems extremely unlikely that he was not siezing an opportunity to use this derrogatory term without sanction (or a size 12 up his ass).

And the term "juke" really has African origins that basically means a house of ill repute -- not necessarily or only a 'whorehouse' -- it could be a liquour house, gambling house, or even a whorehouse. The term is still used in the south by older people and they are almost never talking about a whorehouse when they say it. It really means a house or a place (juke joint) where people gather to do nearly anything that 'religous' people feel is either a sin or against religous teaching.
One of the things about hopefully being an educator is having enough sense not to engage in behavior or language that is wrong or could seemed as hateful. Just because your students are brain dead doens't mean you have to be also.

Interesting point about juke joints as I spend my fair share in them while going to college in Mississippi. The idea that they were whorehouses speaks to the young not knowing what they are talking about. Granted there was sin going on in the place just not that kind.
Wow, good arguing guys.

Good points I've read

- he wouldn't insult someone who could kick his ass, so it's certain that he would seize the day and insult someone who couldn't (impeccable logic)

- juke joints aren't always whorehouses, thus proving that anyone under the age of (whatever) has no clue about what they're talking about (extra points for recognising the key essentials to my post)

- Nmaginate's parody of the interview, simply rife with meaning

- QTY's quick quantam leap in realising that I use this word in everyday speech. Spot on, this is just part of my scheme to get people to use it more

- The refutation of when I said the teacher's punishment was nessecary. I take that back, you were right when you said it was nessecary

- QTY's quick shutdown of my argument that I was Canadian, that was not in response to "this country" [USA]

"Try again"

My point is simply that the same people who leap to the conclusion that he was being intentionally racist, use the n-word in everyday speech in a non-racist fashion. Italians don't call themelves whomps, Japanese people don't say Nip's, etc etc.

THE TEACHER WAS INSULTING THE TENDENCY OF A DEMOGRAPHIC TO HABITUALLY INSULT THEMSELVES! Its called parody, its funny, and wasn't racist at all.

Throw the book at the guy up for all I care, it would probably stop quite a bit of racism in the future. Just don't get all worked up because an english teacher insulted some kid's command of the english language.

(Feel free to continue misinterpereting anything I've said hereon in, I'm done reasoning with you twits. Snide comments about the second last sentence are also welcome.)
"My point is simply that the same people who leap to the conclusion that he was being intentionally racist, use the n-word in everyday speech in a non-racist fashion. Italians don't call themelves whomps, Japanese people don't say Nip's, etc etc.""
------------------------------------------
The teacher was wrong. I never use the word. I teach at the university/college level, and there many student's in the '13th' grade, who remain immature and oblivious to decorum. They curse, yell, shout, insult (I've had skinheads as students make all sorts of horrendous comments in my classes) me and so on. I struggle, (but win)in not responding in kind, because its unprofessional, it would get me fired, and if its a differing ethnic group,I make certain to only acquaint myself with deragatory cultural epithets, not use them. He was wrong, culturally insensitive, unprofessional and, obviously has exhausted his ability to competently 'control' his classroom.
quote:
Originally posted by Jaco:
My point is simply that the same people who leap to the conclusion that he was being intentionally racist, use the n-word in everyday speech in a non-racist fashion.

Your missing the point here. A white man cannot use the word nigger in a non-racist fashion. The weight of history is behind that word.

quote:
Italians don't call themelves whomps, Japanese people don't say Nip's, etc etc.

This has nothing to do with anything. Who cares what Italians and Japanese do or don't call themselves? And Whomp and Nip don't have any where near the historical significance of nigger. Don't mix apples and oranges.

quote:
THE TEACHER WAS INSULTING THE TENDENCY OF A DEMOGRAPHIC TO HABITUALLY INSULT THEMSELVES! Its called parody, its funny, and wasn't racist at all.

How do you not understand the lack of logic here? Listen carefully, If I choose to insult myself, that does not give you or anyone else leave to do so. It was not parody, it was not funny, and it was as racist as all get out.

quote:
Just don't get all worked up because an english teacher insulted some kid's command of the english language.

I am not upset because an English teacher insulted some kid's command of the English language. I am upset because a white man in a position of power over a Black child humiliated and degraded that Black child while simultaneously insulting my entire race.
quote:
THE TEACHER WAS INSULTING THE TENDENCY OF A DEMOGRAPHIC TO HABITUALLY INSULT THEMSELVES! Its called parody, its funny, and wasn't racist at all.
Okay, let's see you do some street-corner comedy doing the same thing.

But, as I have to tell people coming from lame angles like yours pretty often... you SELF-FUCKED (i.e. CONTRADICTED yourself). Here you are betraying what you said before in order for your CIRCULAR REASONING to work. You said:
Put simply... whatever the two parties involved in conversation perceive the meaning of a word to be, that's what the word means in that conversation.

To which I countered:
Obviously, the meaning "in that conversation" has everything to do with how the "meaning" was received by the student. No matter how the student used the word, the meaning when thrown back at the student, given the way English works, need not be the same. And clearly the student didn't perceive or conceive or receive it as the same.... Obviously "both parties" were not cool with the teachers use of the term... Frankly, there is no way in a Two-Way Conversation (which you pretend to be talking) that you can discount how the student perceived, conceived and received the teachers statement.

Nothing that comes out of what we know the TWO PARTIES felt about the communication lends to this BS you're trying to sell:
Frown Its called parody, its funny, and wasn't racist at all. Frown

Now, where did the TWO PARTIES *both* say that?

And to the other unthinking part of what you said... YOU CAN READ:
quote:
In either event, using the term WITH A KNOWN VALUE of having a different perceived meaning and acceptability depending on the race of the sender... In any event, an English teacher, an adult, a conscious, thinking individual could easily think of other ways to make a teaching moment (if that was his intent) out of the incident without traversing the lunacy of using a forbidden term. A KNOWN FORBIDDEN TERM!


Yeah, you say "Good Arguing"... but obviously you can't extend that to yourself. CIRCULAR REASONING? Nah! Doesn't cut it. Now chew on this:
quote:
There is no reason why whites should audibilize
[the N-Word], ever.


...Fact is, history has been a double standard too, and it is this history that explains why the n-word is so much more offensive when coming from a white mouth than the mouth of an African American.

...Simply put, the historic use of the n-word in the white community is not one of mixed meaning. It is not a history in which we called our black friends or colleagues such a term, as if it meant little more than "hey there dude, let's go grab a burger and fries at the Mickey D's." In the mouths and hearts of whites, that word has only been used in the context of contempt, of presumed white superiority, of anti-black bigotry.

...That many whites won't be able to understand this simple point is testimony to nothing so much as our own sense of entitlement. In other words, we are not used to anyone telling us that we can't do something, or shouldn't, and as such take great offense when our own freedom, including the freedom to offend, is constrained.

I can think of no other reason than the desire to maintain a certain form of white privilege: the privilege of saying whatever we want, whenever we want, and feeling as though our right to lecture others on their behavior should logically take precedence over controlling our own.

...The same privilege that (as the flipside to racism itself) has historically given the n-word its power to injure in the first place. As with all racism, it is power and position that gives a racial slur its ability to injure. This is why slurs against whites like cracker or honky seem more juvenile than truly offensive. And this is why the n-word, spoken by whites, is so fundamentally less acceptable than the same term spoken by blacks, however potentially problematic the latter may be.

http://www.lipmagazine.org/~timwise/DoubleStandard.html


The thing is, it's really telling when people like you make an issue out of and try to justify Whites using the N-Word. Really, it reflects on an twisted idea that runs counter to things you want to profess: Obviously, Whites that make such an argument feel they should have a right to call a Black person "Nigger".

That's what it boils down to and that says a lot about the person making any such argument.

So, instead of all the cowardly shenanigans... Start that Street Corner Comedy Show. Film it. So we can laugh every time someone blast your silly azz! Oh but make sure you tell them, you meant it in a nice way. lol
What if the teacher was Black??
I am sure if the teacher was Black this would not be news, and you probably would not care. This is a very serious issue that 'WE' need to fix.

Pop culture is Black! All the popular music and TV shows involve Blacks people in some entity. If the word 'nigga' is used so freely in 'pop culture' it gets adopted by all. 'WE' need to stop this. I love the Dave Chappelle show, Boondocks, pretty much all black movies (I just love black people) and we use the word too much.

It is very hard to not find the word 'nigga' on a rap or hip hop CD. Do you know how popular Kanye West's "Gold Digger" song was. Have you ever seen white folks sing that song??? It is hillarious but wrong!! When I am around they substitute nigga with the radio editted beep..... but when i am not around it is NIGGA NIGGA Gold diggin NIGGA.

I grew up in the hood, unfortunately the word 'nigga' was said more than my own name. I grew insensitive to it. More and more whites are growing insenistive to it too. That is 'Our' fault.

My wife has forbid the word in our house. I used to use the word alot. Things have really changed and I raely use it now. I think that is for the better. Try it out.... Every time you say Nigga do 25 Push ups, you will be swoool in 3 weeks!
quote:
Originally posted by Nmaginate:

The thing is, it's really telling when people like you make an issue out of and try to justify Whites using the N-Word. Really, it reflects on an twisted idea that runs counter to things you want to profess: Obviously, Whites that make such an argument feel they should have a right to call a Black person "Nigger".



Exactly....

I hear whites, call each other 'Redneck' all the time........

Should i call a black man that (as whites call each other nigger) .......or a white man a 'Redneck', when addressing him, just because i 'hear' this all the time?
quote:
Originally posted by Omega4ul:
What if the teacher was Black??

What if?
quote:
I am sure if the teacher was Black this would not be news, and you probably would not care.

That is not a safe assumption, IMO. A teacher is required, certainly in a public school, to set a better example than this. I would take issue with a Black teacher using this word with a student.

But, a white teacher using this word with a Black student is an entirely different ball of wax. When the word nigger comes from a white person it is derogatory, subjugating, and inflammetory. And he did this in public, in front of other students, which to my mind just throws gas on the fire! Ask yourself this, if both these people were grown adults with no power relationship and this had happened on the street, what would the outcome had been? The white man would run a good chance of being socked in the mouth! But in the student/teacher relationship, the boy doesn't have the power to defend his own honor. That's why there are rules in place that are supposed to defend that honor for him, even if his teacher's a complete idiot.

quote:
If the word 'nigga' is used so freely in 'pop culture' it gets adopted by all. 'WE' need to stop this. I love the Dave Chappelle show, Boondocks, pretty much all black movies (I just love black people) and we use the word too much.

I don't disagree with you here. But, when we use it, it's our problem, not theirs. The difference between "nigger" and "nigga" is not the spelling, it's the context in which it is used. The people using the word are a part of that context. Even a Black person who uses that word with me out of context is liable to be slapped. For white people, there is not, nor will there ever be, an appropriate context.

quote:
More and more whites are growing insenistive to it too.

I don't think this is true at all. I hear white people confusedly asking all the time why we can use it and they can't. The fact is that whatever we choose to call ourselves is not their business or perogative. White people will never get a pass on this, and they know it. Unless, of course, they are completely stupid. Even then they'll learn soon enough.

quote:
My wife has forbid the word in our house.

Tell your wife she's got a fan in me! tfro
quote:
Exactly....

I hear whites, call each other 'Redneck' all the time........


QTY, what I wanted to say is that there is this perverse desire where WHITE PEOPLE WANT TO CALL BLACK PEOPLE "NI@@ER" and so this becomes an issue for them.


And then you have some other folk sniffin' on that Anal ABSTRACT glue.
quote:
More and more whites are growing insenistive to it too. That is 'Our' fault.
BULLSHIT!!!

Whites are responsible and know the word, FOR THEM is FORBIDDEN. Otherwise JACO wouldn't be trying to make the limp argument he does (which is not unlike others) trying to justify it.

And your reasoning is even more limp, OMEGA.
Try actually saying something relevant to the actual topic. Yeah... that might help.
I lied when I said that was my last post.

http://haacked.com/archive/2004/02/06/169.aspx

There's your comedy show.

" lol "

In any case, to repeat myself again, I'm not trying to get you to say it's ok for me or any other person to use the n-word. I'm letting you know I don't take this kids sob story seriously because he had obviously heard the word from his peer group before, without bringing up a huge scandal. English teachers do crap like this all the time. My english teacher counted incorrect uses of the word "like" during one of my classmate's presentation (there were 137), then announced it to her in the presence of her peers. That student watches how much she uses the word in an innapropiate context now. A black student in my english class last year brought in a CD labelled "Nigga music" and handed it in as part of a presentation. The teacher blasted this kid. "Turn off that 'Nigga Music'." (he was listening to music in a lesson about a week later). Did the kid go cry to his parents? No, he was mature enough to realise that it was a pretty stupid idea to use the word in everyday speech, and truth be told, he uses it on a less regular basis now.

Grow up, quit using the word, (guess what word I learned Richard Pryor says he hasn't used for 20 years), quit condoning its use and people will respect you for it, as well as paying more attention when you do dissaprove its use.
---------------------------------------------
Another good argument: I think its three times now that people have brought up the idea of solving problems through an asskicking. I would like to build on that positive trend by saying that my dad can beat up your dad. Keep the streak alive!

**EDIT**
Omega is quite right Nmag, before I watched Dave Chappelle and developed somewhat of a friendship with a group of blacks who use this word constantly, I was much more sensitive to its use. White's started its use in the context we know it today, but I hear blacks use it more than any whites do. Spot on Omega. And for the third or fourth time, I have no desire to be granted the dubious privilege of using this word, quit arguing that point.
quote:
In any case, to repeat myself again, I'm not trying to get you to say it's ok for me or any other person to use the n-word. I'm letting you know I don't take this kids sob story seriously because he had obviously heard the word from his peer group before, without bringing up a huge scandal. English teachers do crap like this all the time. My english teacher counted incorrect uses of the word "like" during one of my classmate's presentation (there were 137), then announced it to her in the presence of her peers.


So Jaco ... Using your logic, you'd be okay with someone outside of your immediate peer circle, including an adult in authority telling you to sit down "Bitch" or "Fag" or "Asshole" ... Because you and they have heard it used in your peer circle, even by you? bs

You'd run your little teenage Canadian ass to the nearest snitching post to have that adult's head.

quote:
My english teacher counted incorrect uses of the word "like" during one of my classmate's presentation (there were 137), then announced it to her in the presence of her peers.


How is this even relevant? What part of cultural loaded word/phrase don't you understand? The above nonsense clearly demonstrates that you have no clue as to the cultural baggage associated with the word nigger. Maybe you don't understand because you are Canadian, or maybe because you are white. At any rate, since you clearly don't understand the concept, stop trying to speak as an authority. nono
quote:
Originally posted by Nmaginate:
quote:
Exactly....

I hear whites, call each other 'Redneck' all the time........


QTY, what I wanted to say is that there is this perverse desire where WHITE PEOPLE WANT TO CALL BLACK PEOPLE "NI@@ER" and so this becomes an issue for them.



I was hoping this wasnt true........but i see your point!
quote:
I'm not trying to get you to say it's ok for me or any other person to use the n-word.

IRRELEVANT!!!

And everything else you're "trying" - i.e. displaying - with your lawn chair logic is IRRELEVANT as well.

Now, whoever you thought you were talking... Where did they(I) say, "You're trying to get us(me) to say it's ok for Whites(you) to use the N-Word."

Logically, you can't get that out of anything I said, for certain:
  • The thing is, it's really telling when people like you make an issue out of and try to justify Whites using the N-Word.

    That is, indeed, what you've "tried" to do by defending and declaring that didn't say "anything racist at all."

  • Obviously, Whites that make such an argument feel they [WHITES] should have a right to call a Black person "Nigger".

    That is, indeed, the result of trying to defend the indefensible. That is, indeed, the logical result of this BULLSHIT:

    quote:
  • The double standard possessed by many people... is that it's ok to use the n-word if you are AA and racist if you aren't.

  • The general consensus is that its wrong because only black people are allowed to use the n-word. That is a load of crap. If people look at the color of someone's skin before deciding whether to take offense at a remark, all it shows is that they are at least as racist, and from the comment made regarding the teachers intent, probably more so than the teacher. Frown Don't feed me that crap, bigotry is bigotry. Frown
  • Come on and get your jokes on... while you get your Intellectually Challenged ass straight to addressing what I said:
    quote:
    Bigotry is Bigotry is IGNORANCE is IGNORANCE.
    That stuff might go for logic where you come from but that BS isn't working here. You can't strip a word of it's CONTEXT, history or anything else that has developed with the life of the word, no matter how much it flies against your idiotic ABSTRACT Abstractions.

    Yes, Bigotry Is Bigotry in the ABSTRACT, huh?
    Now, let's see you demonstrate how the two are comparable in ACTUALITY. So, yes, let's here you detail how the two are equally or similarly "bigoted" in real life use, impact and effect.
    Either address that or STFU!!!

    That Sleight of Hand BS, that anal abstract BS doesn't fly. And you can't even follow your own standards:
    Put simply... whatever the two parties involved in conversation perceive the meaning of a word to be, that's what the word means in that conversation.

    Now, what I did say you were trying to sell was this CONTRADICTED bullshit:
    Frown Its called parody, its funny, and wasn't racist at all. Frown

    REPEATING....
    Now, where did the TWO PARTIES *both* say that?

    That's the question before. That's the question that dismantles all your BULLSHIT about what the teacher said, intended to say, why he said what he said.... yada... yada... etc., etc.

    When you learn how to formulate an argument/position that doesn't self-destruct under its own weight (by virtue of the very ideas and standards you articulate) then you come back and see how that works. Right now, all you're doing is embarrassing yourself.

    You beg to differ?? Answer my question:
    Now, where did the TWO PARTIES *both* say situation was "funny", a "padody" and "not racist at all"?

    List DAWSON'S statement(s).... <<< H E R E >>>
    List the students statement(s)... <<< H E R E >>>
  • quote:
    I'm letting you know I don't take this kids sob story seriously because he had obviously heard the word from his peer group before, without bringing up a huge scandal.
    Now, this clearly displays your lack of logic or anything that can credibly be called an objective view of the situation.

    The students "sob story" notwithstanding... There is still the clear, blatant, obvious and absurd SOB STORY of the teacher that you don't and haven't scrutinized. Instead, you talk about some IRRELEVANT BULLSHIT about "English Teachers" without addressing this English teacher and analyzing what he said and the clear SOB STORY he tried to pawn off.

    Again, you've shown how you have difficulty applying your standards objectively and across the board. Anyone objective looking at what the teacher in this case said can hardly find him any more credible than the student.

    But thanks for playing... DUMB!
    I've told you what I think, you've had a load of fun attacking that, now heres something you can attack and possibly get somewhere. Why I think it.

    The only uninterested party who is credible, is the one who's opinion decides nothing, and has nothing to gain or lose by the situation. We only have two opinions as to the teachers intent (excluding the teacher as he obviously has the most to lose and is directly involved).

    1) We have the negative opinion of someone who was in conflict with the teacher and, as such, has a potential motive to screw over the teacher by not bothering to consider what the teacher meant by the phrase. It is also likely he belongs to the group (#3) that does not consider intent when qualifying speech, rather, looking only at skin colour. This person is also intrinsically involved with the issue, placing him on the same ground as the teacher as far as involvement goes.

    2) We have the positive explanation of a student who had enough knowledge to make a judgement call in a personal situation, yet who was apparently uninvolved enough to allow his opinion to remain credible. His statement as to the teacher knowledge of the slang and ability to "rap" with the students is backed up by the video of the teacher explaining use of the word in various situations (including examples which I know, as a teenager exposed to the slang usage of the word, occur). It is possible that he was in conflict with the student in question, however the fact that his opinion matters little in the outcome offsets that to a degree.

    3) We have the statements of various other groups, which make no attempt to guess the teachers intent, but simply assume that everytime the word "nigga" is used by a white person, it is meant in a racist fashion. This is despite their own use of the word, infering that despite civil rights movements, the colour of your skin does matter as far as objective treatment in concerned. (To forestall argument, those who have been wrongfully treated deserve compensation, etc etc but this is true of all peoples, the situation simply occurs frequently among blacks. Skin colour is not a deciding factor at all)

    Only 1 and 2 offer opinions on intent (intent is important, the difference between murder and mansluaghter for example), while 3 simply says it is always wrong (like killing is considered always wrong). Of the two opinions on intent it is obvious which is more credible (#2, for the slow folks at home). This is why I think that the probability is that the teacher was not being racist. However I also recognise that the lower probability exists, and also that the word is not appropiate for ANYONE to use, so I support the teachers punishment. I do not support the leap to the conclusion that the teacher was being racist simply because there has been cases where the word has been applied in a racist fashion.

    THIS IS MY ONLY POINT! INTENT WAS THE ONLY THING I WAS DISCUSSING! EVER! My only thesis if you will. Everything I have said agrees and coincides with this. I'll repeat it again so it is very clear.

    The probability is that the teacher was not being racist. I also recognise that the lower probability exists and also that the word is innapropiate for ANYONE to use, so I support the teachers punishment. I do not support the leap to the conclusion that the teacher was being racist simply because there has been cases where the word has been applied in a racist fashion.

    So to the undefended part of my argument, why intent is important. Here's why. If the teacher was being intentionally racist, he is a racist, is ignorant, should not be allowed near anyone, and deserves treatment as such. If the teacher only meant to get a response out of the kid by insulting his grammer, then the teacher is somewhat of a jerk and a dumbass (in his method of doing so), and deserves treatment as such. If the teacher was honestly trying to make a connection with the kid (no, I don't think he was, I think he was being a jerk), then he's a naive dumbass and should be treated as such. In any case, the punishment will be the same because this is not an ideal situation where we can determine intent. Where intent does matter is in people's opinions of him. Noone likes to be wrongfully accused, no matter who you are. True, our opinion will not personally affect him, but it's probably good practice to be somewhat of a decent human being and give him the benefit of the doubt. Just because we are shocked at possibilities, does not make those possibilities automatically true, we still should give reason due process. Which is what I've doen to the best of my ability. It's also why the claims that all I'm trying to do is justify use of the n-word are completely meaningless along with the pompous whining about how white people can never accept that they can't do something.
    -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Useless rebuttal (noone will actually read it objectively before they respond) which will probably become the focus of the argument as opposed to the above

    "So Jaco ... Using your logic, you'd be okay with someone outside of your immediate peer circle, including an adult in authority telling you to sit down "Bitch" or "Fag" or "Asshole" ... Because you and they have heard it used in your peer circle, even by you? bs You'd run your little teenage Canadian ass to the nearest snitching post to have that adult's head."

    Nope, I'd tell him to go fuck himself, if the insult was that clear. Mutual blackmail you dumbass, only he would way have more to lose then me. However if he took a word I used often in a completely idiotic and senseless way (hint: there isn't one, the worst a teacher could do is critique my work ethic), then I would be embarrased as hell and sit down. In any case, if he used a term that was in use by me and my friends to address eachother (as was the word "nigga" in the students case), I'd say hi and sit down. If he insulted my ethnic background, (I'm primarily Dutch, have at it), I'd ignore it if it was groundless (as it would be, it's racism), maybe give it a chuckle if it was witty, and sit down. One question though, why was it neesecary to include the word Canadian? Completely unnessecary, unless of course you're a hypocritical piece of shit.

    "What part of cultural loaded word/phrase don't you understand?"

    Hmm, read my posts. I don't think the word was used in a racist context, I think it was a critique of language. Intent does matter. If someone is really that offended, and the person is more than a nameless face off the street, they should probably take the time to have a conversation to determine intent and also to make it clear that they don't appreciate the possible slur. We learned steps to problem solving in what, grade 3?

    "or maybe because you are white"

    That however probably was racist. You could have meant that no white person could fathom the depths of your sorrow, but I'm not betting on it. You could learn something from me simply not caring.

    "Sad, isn't it. Many white people have a hard time being told that they can't do something."

    Also could be taken as racist, but I'm going to assume you realise it's true of all people, including your own. Noone likes to be told that they can't do something they would like to do. Moving out of the general case, it is racist if you're assuming all white people want to be racist. If you honestly think that white people in general are more arrogant and demanding than your average human, I'd have to lump you in with the hypocritical shit there too.

    "IRRELEVANT!!!" (re: my defense against the accusation that I wanted to say "nigga")

    Relevant, only because your dumb asses accused me of it.

    How are the two cases of bigotry comparable? Well for starters...

    Bigot: a person obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his or her own opinions and prejudices

    The students involved take offense at the word only if white people say it. There is, as you say, history to explain why this occurs, however it is still only a reason behind the bigotry and not an excuse for the bigotry. Verdict, bigotry. You obviously think the english teacher was being racist, despite his knowledge of how the students peers used the word in everyday conversation, and from that, his knowledge of how to use it himself in everyday conversation as is the fashion. The connection is obvious, I have no clue how you didn't grasp it. If you want to argue the line between abstract and the applicable, perhaps you had better define clearly what that line is. Right now all your doing is repeating a grey area at me without qualifying it. In any case, this isn't exactly the cornerstone of my point of view, attacking this does nothing. If it makes you feel better to win, I'll admit that there are differences between the two, however the common aspect of prejudice still exists (but only if the teacher was being racist). Note I covered the outcome of the teacher not being racist by using the phrase "more racist." No contradiction.

    "Now, this clearly displays your lack of logic or anything that can credibly be called an objective view of the situation."

    Read: "I, Nmaginate, pronounce you illogical. Explanation will not be forthcoming."

    The teachers sob story? Its the exact same thing as what I've been saying, that he (probably) wasn't being racist. Why the hell did you need me to tell you that? His story agrees with everything I've said, I don't have to justify it, you just have to thouroughly read what I wrote, and objectively listen to what he said. They agree, I've been explaining his story the whole time, I shouldn't have to point that out to you.

    "Put simply... whatever the two parties involved in conversation perceive the meaning of a word to be, that's what the word means in that conversation."

    I fail to see the conflict. If the teacher was making a parody and the student failed to understand it, then there is nothing more than a misunderstanding. The fact that the student didn't understand (or chose to deliberately not understand), does not change the teachers intentions. Its a conditional statement, the concept works if and only if both parties do understand the meaning. Again, I shouldn't have to explain that.
    quote:
    I've told you what I think, you've had a load of fun attacking that, now heres something you can attack and possibly get somewhere. Why I think it.
    JACO! The whole point here is that YOU GETS NOWHERE WITH YOUR FAULTY LOGIC, idiotic Circular Reasoning and Anal ABSTRACTIONS!

    First, foremost and ALWAYS...
    THE TEACHER'S INTENT IS IRRELEVANT!

    INTENT defines nor determines NOTHING! INTENT is not the End All, Be All of anything. As the saying goes, The Road To Hell Is Paved With Good Intentions.

    The Teacher's INTENT is IRRELEVANT because:
    Put simply... whatever the two parties involved in conversation perceive the meaning of a word to be, that's what the word means in that conversation.

    Now, reconcile that or admit that you can go around and around and around and there is NO WAY for you to make your CIRCULAR REASONING work, much less stick.

    As far as YOUR #1... That's IRRELEVANT!! I already said:
    The students "sob story" notwithstanding... There is still the clear, blatant, obvious and absurd SOB STORY of the teacher that you don't and haven't scrutinized.

    So, no... You gets NOWHERE until you do that and, since you insist, analyze the Teacher's actual words, actions and behaviors to determine what was or wasn't his intent. Whether what he professed was actually "credible" or not, we can determine whether he was being TRUTHFUL, deceptive or otherwise less than forthcoming when he said/did what he said/did. And, more than anything, if you're going to try to gauge what his intent is... you have to talk about what he actually did and not just what you think or call his intent. And, no, "teachers do this all the time" says little about what DAWSON actually did.

    As for YOUR #2... Please... Get A GRIP!!
    What are all the Mental Gymnastics (CIRCULAR Reasoning somersaults) for when the information from the story clearly stated:
    District investigators interviewed several witnesses, who did not confirm Dawson's allegation about the student...

    Hmmm.... Curious term, huh? ***WITNESSES***
    Why what a strange thing and a strange "group" of people to consider as having credibility or actually being able to offer relevant information. Witnesses!!? Can you believe that? Witnesses?!?

    Hmmm... Nothing indicated that the statement given by Mr. Ray Underwood (black student) was a WITNESS STATEMENT - i.e. a person who actually was around and actually heard and/or saw the controversial conversation/incident.

    Hmmmm.... Funny how you placed a "positive" value on Mr. Underwood's statement without knowing that critical information. With that said, Mr. Underwood's statement is about as pertinent as Ricky Jones' (the Pan-African Studies chair) or, more comparably, SHAREKA MORROW'S. Now, how come you didn't list her statement as #4 or something? How come didn't give equal weight to her statement? Hers is as valuable as Underwood's when it comes to determining the teachers character (which is about all Underwood's is good for, given the information). How come you didn't include her statement in your not-so systematic consideration of DAWSON'S INTENT? She said:
    "I thought it was very offensive. If you're white, you don't say it."

    Now, the article was clear in saying she heard about the situation via secondhand information. The article, however, never indicates anything, one way or the other, about Mr. Underwood's knowledge of the situation - whether it was first hand or otherwise. And actually, Mr. Underwood's statement actually hinges on something I said a long time ago:
    Considering how this is the hip-hop era and how the term was supposedly used frequently AMONG THE STUDENTS... the teacher had ample time and reason to teach about the term.

    So, you've tried and have gotten NOWHERE with trying to claim that the INTENT was a Teaching Tool via "parody", etc. (*mocking* is much more accurate). Now, for some reason we haven't been privileged to your expositions explaining why the teacher after having presumably PLENTY of opportunities to make a Teaching Moment or draw up a lesson plan discussing the N-Word... NOTHING from you exploring WHY the teacher, whom you imbibe with such innocuous INTENT (with nothing but your own prejudices/biases to base your claim on)... NOTHING from you that says WHY he hadn't actually approached the situation in a serious, ADULT and academic manner which (hey!) as a teacher he is actually paid to do.

    Mr. Underwood's statement coincides with DAWSON'S own admission:
    quote:
    Dawson says students use the slang version of the word at Valley High School all the time. Dawson says as much as he doesn't like the word, he still used the slang version to feel more comfortable with black students. "Why is this word used so frequently? So I just don't understand it and I'm trying to understand it."
    Hmmm... Even after all that, instead of exerting an ounce of analytical power or time on WHY DAWSON NEEDED/WANTED TO FEEL [MORE] COMFORTABLE with Black Students and ever examining WHY when DAWSON suggested that he didn't or wanted to "understand" the use of the term... WHY DIDN'T HE DEVOTE REAL TEACHING TIME TOWARDS IT when he clearly would have had ample opportunity?? Especially given how students like Underwood were able to ascertain or assume that he "liked rappin'"???

    EVERYTHING YOU SUGGEST falls flat. That's what CIRCULAR REASONING does for you. NOTHING!

    quote:
    3) We have the statements of various other groups, which make no attempt to guess the teachers intent, but simply assume that everytime the word "nigga" is used by a white person, it is meant in a racist fashion.
    In this situation, given what is admitted by BOTH PARTIES, there is no way you can clean it up. THERE IS NO WAY FOR THE TEACHER'S STATEMENT, however it was "intended", can be anything other than IMPROPER and "RACIST" in effect.

    How about actually keeping up and actually addressing my points?

    I said and my point still remains that:
    No one is ignorant of the meaning or connotation of Ni@@a when said in a condescending manner or when trying to be snide or sly or sarcastic, much less when its used in a teacher-student relationship.

    DAWSON statement where he said he didn't like the term speaks volumes. He knew what the hell he was saying and he knew and had every reason to know how it was going to be received.

    Put simply... whatever the two parties involved in conversation perceive the meaning of a word to be, that's what the word means in that conversation.

    Okay! Now, what we clearly have he is the student, Chavers, PERCEIVING Dawson's statement as "racist", condescending, improper or whatever. Now, uphold your standard and honor the PERCEPTIONS of BOTH PARTIES. You can't justify giving one "The Benefit Of A Doubt" when you have no basis other than your AVERSION to being on the wrong side of a "double-standard" that informs your ignorant, decontextualized, off-centered and devoid of logic views.


    quote:
    I support the teachers punishment. I do not support the leap to the conclusion that the teacher was being racist simply because there has been cases where the word has been applied in a racist fashion.
    And your "support" of the teacher's punishment changes nothing and serves as no disclaimer or caveat. It is you who have been proven to make the leaps in logic as you try, feebly, to land safely after performing all those twisted logical flips your CIRCULAR REASONING forces you to do.

    Most importantly...
    WHO GIVES A FUCK what you do and don't support??

    quote:
    KWELI said:

    Since you clearly don't understand the concept, stop trying to speak as an authority.
    I'll put it in my own words, WHAT YOU THINK IS NOT A STANDARD FOR ANYTHING, as proven. And you are NO AUTHORITY and, as such, NOTHING YOU SAY has any automatic credibility or authority vested in it. When you talk about what you do and don't support, that shit presupposes:

    [1] That we give a shit; and
    [2] That what you support matters and is suppose to mean something; that you or rather what you say or how you see things is important when in truth, all you're doing is trying to assert your self-importance of which you have NONE here. No credibility on GP here.

    So, again... WHO GIVES A FUCK what you support?
    Who the fuck are you? When and where did anybody here say your idea about this matters (more than anyone else's or becomes the standard by which the opinions of others are judged)??

    You might want to take a long, hot, soapy shower... You're smelling yourself. And that funk is strong!


    quote:
    No one likes to be wrongfully accused, no matter who you are. True, our opinion will not personally affect him, but it's probably good practice to be somewhat of a decent human being and give him the benefit of the doubt.
    Give him the benefit of the doubt... WHY???

    That's something you obviously can't see "supporting" when it came to the student? You give an ADULT... AN ADULT... and, worst yet, A TEACHER! ...An English Teacher (someone who we agreed should know something about language)... THE BENEFIT OF A DOUBT??? lol

    Wait a minute... What did you say about the student?
    quote:
    upset "I'm letting you know I don't take this kids sob story seriously because he had obviously heard the word from his peer group before, without bringing up a huge scandal. upset
    BLATANT BIAS there, JACO...

    That Chavers had "heard the word from his peer group before" is IRRELEVANT. What part of a TEACHER-STUDENT relationship don't you understand? They are NOT peers. It is IMPROPER and, yes, in this case RACIST for the teacher to use a KNOWN FORBIDDEN TERM for any purpose it could have been used for in that situation.

    The way Chavers would have used or heard the N-Word used amongst his peers is fundamentally different than anything the teacher could have said because HE WAS A TEACHER stupid!! Dawson was not and is not Chavers' peer.

    But thanks for showing your prejudice in clear and convincing fashion.
    quote:
    We still should give reason due process.
    And, using that CIRCULAR version, you have not done so.



    Now, say this (below) real slow and witness for yourself how you have abandoning sound reasoning trying to assert and defend your weird and twisted (and untenable) CIRCULAR REASONING:
    No one likes to be told that they can't do something they would like to do.

    Now, since you're in to telling WHY... LOL
    Why do you suppose White people "would like to" call Black people "ni@@er", "ni@@a", etc.?

    And... NO ONE SAID THIS! STAY ON TOPIC!!
    Frown It is racist if you're assuming all white people want to be racist. Frown

    And, again, you pretend to be an authority as if what you say is so, just because you say so. Please stop smelling yourself and get off the low-tech BULLSHIT! No one said anything about ALL WHITE people. IDIOT!! This situation, when you want to talk about probability, can't possibly incorporate ALL WHITE people for ALL WHITE people aren't driven to trip over the so-called "double-standard" of who can use and who can't use the N-Word. So what are you talking about?

    quote:
    The students involved take offense at the word only if white people say it. There is, as you say, history to explain why this occurs, however it is still only a reason behind the bigotry and not an excuse for the bigotry. Verdict, bigotry.
    That SHIT does not logically compute. More of your pathetic CIRCULAR REASONING... Go on now... Read up and take some lessons or something. You're just not capable of discussing things here. Your reasoning, YOUR CIRCULAR REASONING leaves a lot to be desired.

    But, go ahead... Actually translate that bullshit into real, intelligible, coherent ENGLISH!!

    quote:
    You obviously think the english teacher was being racist, despite his knowledge of how the students peers used the word in everyday conversation, and from that, his knowledge of how to use it himself in everyday conversation as is the fashion.
    You obviously DON'T KNOW WHAT THE HELL YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT!!

    There is no "everyday" conversation where a teacher can effectively speak as a student's peer [does]. Now, what part of that do you find hard to grasp?

    Such speech, such communication is inherently problematic and IMPROPER and the teachers INTENTIONAL desire to "communicate" TO BLACK STUDENTS (note, he did not say the rainbow, hip-hop generation) is, itself, RACIALIZED. So, by your own abstract definitions what the teacher said was RACIST!!

    quote:
    If it makes you feel better to win, I'll admit that there are differences between the two
    STFU!!! You said: "Bigotry is bigotry." By saying that you were emphatically saying (and unequivocally saying, then) that THE TWO ARE THE EXACT SAME or rather amount to the same exact thing with there being no significant differences.

    Beyond that, given your poor displaying of coherent and comprehendable ENGLISH!!! You have not establish how the student's or any Black person's idea that NO WHITE PERSON CAN SAY "NI@@A" amounts to "bigotry" or "racism". Hmmm...

    quote:
    I've been explaining his story the whole time
    BULLSHIT!!! You've been displaying your personal prejudices and injecting your ideas and transposing them on the teachers without no regard for the teacher's actual story.

    quote:
    I fail to see the conflict.
    And that truth is not contingent on you acknowledging it as such.

    You clearly did not privilege the perceived meanings of BOTH PARTIES equally. That is clear.
    quote:
    If the teacher was making a parody
    See... that's exactly what you have transposed and imposed without cause or reason. Did the teacher say or suggest he was making "parody."???

    That conflicts with the idea that he was merely using youthful slang as he tried to relate to Chavers in ways his peers do. Certainly his peers aren't about making parody.

    NEXT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    Last edited {1}
    quote:
    3) ...everytime the word "nigga" is used by a white person, it is meant in a racist fashion. This is despite their own use of the word, infering that despite civil rights movements, the colour of your skin does matter as far as objective treatment in concerned.
    JACO, know the hell you're talking about before you open your mouth.

    Again, THE INTENT or "how it is meant" coming from a White person is IRRELEVANT!!!

    Second, Black people use of the term has nothing to do with how Black people should regard White people's use of it. There is NO SITUATION (or a very .0000001% few) where a White person can say the word and it not be inherently problematic.

    As they say, Black people use it AMONGST THEMSELVES as a term of endearment/affection. Simply put, White people (most if not all) just aren't and can't be in those circles of endearment/affection. The TEACHER definitely wasn't.
    quote:
    Dawson... used the slang version to feel more comfortable with black students.
    Obviously he had neither earned nor was he privy to those circles of endearment/affection. Given that, without those bona fides, he had no place or reason. Given that, you have no place and no reason to think there is some way for a White person, hell any White person, can or should be so privileged as to have equal access and equal use of such terms of "endearment/affection", much less this teacher.

    So, once again... The Teacher is not the PEER of the student. Therefore the type of affection/endearment, by definition, cannot be the same. So there is no way for the use to be the same.

    Also, those bonds of affection/endearment are AUTHENTIC. Not artificial. For the teacher to try to "relate" or "speak the language" of his BLACK STUDENTS (i.e. RACIALIZED focused), he is admitting that his connection or desire to connect (since you endow him with that intent which makes no sense, unless you're openly saying that it was "RACIST" in nature, because it was clearly RACIALIZED)... his desire to connect is ARTIFICIAL - i.e. not a natural, organic progression from an actual relationship and intimacy that grants those endearing privileges.

    Now, onto the CIVIL RIGHTS confusion of yours...

    First, don't you ever fix your mouth... don't you ever place yourself as The Interpreter and Authority on what the Civil Rights Movement was about and what it is suppose to mean to Black people.

    And please illustrate how being able to call some one "Ni@@a" is a Civil Rights issue? I mean seriously? How does this relate?

    What is the "OBJECTIVE TREATMENT" in this whole WHITES CAN'T SAY THE N-WORD thingy that amounts to anything worth mentioning in the same conversation as the Civil Rights Movement?

    Seriously? What Civil Right is being violated when we say WHITES CAN'T and BETTER NOT SAY THE N-WORD?

    What is the harsh, unfair and DISADVANTAGING treatment that's being visited/imposed on Whites by making the N-Word off limits?

    If you don't have a serious, logical, reasoned and functional answer for that then you better think about the BS you say before you let it come out your mouth. That's the problem with your silly ABSTRACT, idiotic "Bigotry is Bigotry" type of thinking. It is flawed and fallacious to it's core.
    quote:
    I'll admit that there are differences between the two...
    And, FYI, it matters not what you are willing to admit. No validation or acknowledgement was requested much less needed from you for me to know and be certain that there are clear, objective and meaningful DIFFERENCES between two things you tried to group into one little idiotic (and inappropriate) little catch-term.

    quote:
    (To forestall argument, those who have been wrongfully treated deserve compensation, etc etc but this is true of all peoples, the situation simply occurs frequently among blacks. Skin colour is not a deciding factor at all)
    And what the FUCK was this? Stay on topic, deal with what is said and what is being contended with or STFU!!!
    (That's SHUT THE FUCK UP... in case you didn't know.)

    But while you're talking, let's get to the nitty gritty. What is the OBJECTIVE WRONG being done to Whites? How are Whites HARMED by not being able to say the "N-Word"?

    Look up, become acquainted with, go to bed and sleep with the knowledge of what the FALLACY OF EQUIVOCATION is. At every turn, with your play on the idea of Bigotry and your evoking of the Civil Rights Movement... at every turn you have turned logic on its head, perverted the very meaning of the terms -- and, in fact, implied DIFFERENT and incompatible meanings for Black ["Bigotry" vs. White BIGOTRY and the DISCRIMINATION or Objective, Unfair and HARMFUL/DISADVANTAGING "Treatment" Against Whites vs. the clear history of measureable, significant and profound, material Racial Discrimination Against Africans/African-Americans.

    You have tried to pawn off some idiotic SLEIGHT OF HAND LOGIC via abstractions even when you know the profound and fundamental DIFFERENCES...

    But, go ahead... Tell us all:
    HOW ARE WHITES HARMED BY NOT BEING ABLE TO SAY "NIGGER"?

    If an official U.S. law was made that banned the N-Word and made it something that only Whites had to abide by (not saying it)... HOW WOULD WHITES BE HARMED??
    "Very mistaken"

    When Rickey Moore's friends mourned his death last month, they built a wooden memorial with a cardboard sign for handwritten tributes from friends. One of the first tributes read: "To my nigga forever. We miss you already."

    A more recent tribute says: "We gon miss you my nigga."

    Yet the white Cincinnati police officer who shot Mr. Moore was disciplined five years earlier for using the same n-word variation.

    Officer Thomas Haas says he was trying to subdue a difficult prisoner at the Hamilton County Justice Center in November 1996, when he pulled a knit stocking cap over the man's face and called him "nigga."

    "Officer Haas claims he used the term in a friendly manner and that he was not attempting to be disrespectful," a police report of the incident says. "He also claims this is an acceptable term used by persons on the street, primarily drug dealers. He states that he is trying to be a good community police officer by "acting the role' and by presenting himself in a manner close to the persons he serves."

    Capt. Kenneth Jones, the police supervisor who wrote the report, disagreed with Officer Haas.

    "Officer Haas is under the belief that in order to communicate with members of the community, it is OK to talk exactly as they do," Capt. Jones wrote. "He is very mistaken.

    "We must be aware that there are various cultures within our community where certain language may be acceptable within that culture, but not by outsiders."



    http://www.enquirer.com/editions/2001/08/05/loc_1the_n-word.html


    ________________________________________________
    Slurs often adopted by those they insult

    Racial slurs such as "spic," "dago" and "mick" still are considered offensive by many people of Hispanic, Italian and Irish descent. But the words also are acceptable slang to many within those ethnic groups.

    Use of derogatory words by the defamed group is not unusual, some linguists say. Dr. Philip Herbst, author of The Color of Words, says some disenfranchised people believe that taking ownership of offensive words saps them of their power.

    In his book, Dr. Herbst says the n-word can sometimes be used within the black community to indicate solidarity or affection. However, he adds that African-Americans' attempts to demystify the word have not worked very well over the years.

    ....Garlinda Burton, author of Never Say Nigger Again: An Anti-Racism Guide for White Liberals, says no other racial slur is as derogatory as the n-word is to African-Americans.
    You refuse to acknowledge I've constantly said any of the following, instead "arguing" by restating them as if they were an opposing viewpoint.

    1) Yes, the teacher used a word innapropiate to the situation, I've said this several times, as have you. We agree, quit harping on the goddamn point.

    2) I HAVE NO FUCKING PROBLEM WITH WHITES NOT BEING ALLOWED TO SAY "NIGGER!" NONE! ZERO! I'VE STATED THIS EXPLICITLY SEVERAL GODDAMN TIMES! QUIT HARPING ON IT AS A VALID REFUTATION OF WHAT I'VE SAID! IT ISN'T! I only disputed intent, NEVER punishment.

    People feel shitty when wrongfully accused of something. I'd rather be called a dumbass then be called a racist (this is why I'm even offering my opinion for those of you who haven't clued in yet). The probability was that the guy was being a dumbass and not a racist, because of intent.

    Intent IS irrelevant as far as the impact of the word goes. I've confirmed this SEVERAL times by agreeing that the teacher should be punished.

    Intent IS NOT irrelevant as far as the label that this guy is going to have to live with for a good portion of time (the reason im posting). Check out my analysis (repeated below) to see why I think he's a dumbass and not a racist.

    "As far as YOUR #1, that's IRRELEVANT!... So, no, you gets [sic] NOWHERE until you do that and, since you insist [upon it], analyze the Teacher's actual words, actions and behaviors to determine what was or wasn't his intent."

    You completely missed the point that #1 was part of the analysis showing why I held my view. I cannot take the teachers testimony at face value, simply because I support his statement. I attach neither a positive, nor negative influence to it. To recap my analysis of the events which occured:

    The analysis was only to determine objectivity concerning intent. We have 4 statements concerning intent.

    1a) Student - the teacher used the word "nigga" when addressing me. I felt this word was used in a racist fashion (belongs to group #3 who states the word is always taken in a racist fashion from a white person to a black person, WHICH SHOWS IT IS EXTREMELY PROBABLE HE DOESNT FUCKING CARE WHAT THE TEACHERS INTENT WAS!)

    1b) Teacher - I did not mean the word in a racist fashion

    2) Student - from my personal experience with the teacher, he would not use this word in a racist fashion

    3) Students - the word is always taken in a racist fashion when coming from a white person to a black person (no comment regarding intent), the student did not call the teacher a "nigga" first. Our peer group does use this word constantly (thus showing the teacher how it is used in a non racist way).

    It is 1a's intention to nail this guy, stating racist intent will help his cause, not to mention the probability that he doesn't care what the teachers intent was.
    It is 1b's wish to escape punishment, denying racist intent will help his cause (I left this out initially because it was so obviously a possible self-serving testimony).

    After this we are at an equilibrium (neither statement is credible as far as intent is concerned).

    It is 2's intent to offer his opinionon whether the teacher had racist intent
    It is 3's intent to offer their opinions on the racist nature of the comment, NOT ON INTENT.

    We have only one objective viewpoint as to intent, I'm siding with that guy, QED bitch, my opinion that the teacher was not a racist is viable.

    It is interesting to note that if the intent was as I think, the teacher would not have used the word had it not been in common use by the students going to that school (no this isn't an excuse, its an explanation). That explanation is why I think the hypocracy exists, more specifically, the students protesting a situation they had a direct hand in creating (notwithstanding the teachers responsibility for his own actions etc etc).
    ---------------------------
    More rebuttal

    "If an official U.S. law was made that banned the N-Word and made it something that only Whites had to abide by (not saying it)... HOW WOULD WHITES BE HARMED??"

    By the government officially setting a standard which made a distinction upon the basis of ethnicity. I would expect someone this vocal about racism to recognise that as a negative trend.

    As far as the actual usage of the word goes, I personally wouldn't be hurt at all. Its nice to see we agree on a concept we've both repeated over and over again.

    "["Bigotry" vs. White BIGOTRY and the DISCRIMINATION or Objective, Unfair and HARMFUL/DISADVANTAGING "Treatment" Against Whites vs. the clear history of measureable, significant and profound, material Racial Discrimination Against Africans/African-Americans.]"

    Thats not what I was comparing. I wasn't comparing the extent of ALL bigotry against whites against the extent of ALL bigotry against blacks. I was simply stating that prejudicial intent existed in this specific situation, but not in the way most on this forum were viewing it.

    "And what the FUCK was this? Stay on topic, deal with what is said and what is being contended with or STFU!!!"

    I was expecting you to go off on a tangent about how the case of blacks is unique, thus showing blacks did deserve special treatment (unfair when not taking history into account) which is unique to them (as some do). I was simply pointing out that anyone would deserve this unique compensation, so you wouldn't link another 4 or 5 opinion pieces to "prove" me wrong. Looking back on it, it was silly of me to even presume you bringing up up such nonessential points to what I was discussing (intent) such as: that white people should not be allowed to say "nigga", or that the teachers comment was percieved as racist or that my contrasting of prejudices was incorrect on some levels because other blacks HAVE been racially discriminated against. I don't know what got into me, I should lay off the crack.

    "WHO GIVES A FUCK what you do and don't support??"
    You give a fuck, or else you wouldn't be bothering to respond. Fucking twit.
    I did read your whole post, but this is the major disconnect that your having...

    quote:
    Originally posted by Jaco:
    Intent IS irrelevant as far as the impact of the word goes.

    The impact on the student has nothing to do with the intent of the teacher. Why is this so hard for you to understand? It has nothing to do with whether or not the teacher is punished. Whatever damage that was done is already done. It doesn't matter in the slightest what the teacher's intent was. He can control his intent, but not the effect. Coincidently, and especially, because he is a teacher, he must be mindfull of the effect he has on his students!

    quote:
    Intent IS NOT irrelevant as far as the label that this guy is going to have to live with for a good portion of time (the reason im posting). Check out my analysis (repeated below) to see why I think he's a dumbass and not a racist.

    No one cares if he's racist or not. His actions were racist, even if his intent was not.

    quote:
    who states the word is always taken in a racist fashion from a white person to a black person, WHICH SHOWS IT IS EXTREMELY PROBABLE HE DOESNT FUCKING CARE WHAT THE TEACHERS INTENT WAS!)

    Bingo!!! You said it this time, not one of us. Now, re-read that statement until it makes sense to you.
    I wonder if the teacher thought he could and would have a better relationship with his Black students if he used the N-word. I feel the teacher should have known better protest

    I don't use the word nor do I like hearing anyone use it. Some try to say the N-word is a word to show affection to another African American. I feel it's a disrespectful word that was created to demean our people for years. I have always been told that you can't polish up SH!+, you can try to buff it, you can also try to shine it - but it's still SH!+. That is what the N-word means to me.
    quote:
    People feel shitty when wrongfully accused of something.
    Dude, you didn't come here under the pretense that you were presenting a WHITE PERSPECTIVE. You tried to feign objectivity. Now make up your fuckin' mind what your approach is before you open your mouth.

    First, you haven't, can't and won't be able to detail how the teacher was "WRONGFULLY ACCUSED". You've went about this predetermined process of GIVING HIM THE BENEFIT OF THE DOUBT which heavily prejudiced every Got-Damn thing you said. You have taken this teacher's side with no just cause. You have never been objective. PERIOD!!

    quote:
    Intent IS NOT irrelevant as far as the label that this guy is going to have to live...
    SHUT THE FUCK UP!! A fuckin' adult with any amount of gray matter would know the consequences and modify his/her behavior, speech and actions accordingly. The fact that this teacher didn't doesn't afford him any sympathy points or any pre-granted Benefits Of A Doubt (as you have bias-ly done here).

    quote:
    Check out my analysis (repeated below) to see why I think he's a dumbass and not a racist.
    NO ONE GIVES A FUCK WHAT YOU THINK!! You have proven you don't know what the hell you're talking about and, consequently, how your definitions and distinctions are skewed by your own predetermined and prearranged CIRCULAR REASONING whereby you are fitting your "analysis" to a conclusion you arrived at before doing a substantive, honest and realistic analysis of the ACTUAL situation.

    Calling the guy a "DUMBASS" is no consolation. The dude is a DUMBASS because of his RACIALIZED views. Remember... He was trying to relate and feel [more] comfortable with (*ahem*) BLACK STUDENTS. Not White... Not Hispanic... Not Asian... Not Arab/Middle Eastern... BLACK STUDENTS. Now, by your own definition, since it is a situation where ONE "RACE" is singled out... that's "RACIST."

    Now, I wished you'd stop HATIN' on yourself...

    quote:
    I'd rather be called a dumbass then be called a racist
    WHO GIVES A SHIT!! Who cares? That's a PERSONAL PROBLEM you have which is IRRELEVANT to this situation even if the teacher feels the same way.

    There is no Pick & Choose options. That is antithetical to objective analysis. Stop perpetrating and just say you're coming from a purely biased WHITE PERSPECTIVE and be done with it. You will note how that WHITE PERSPECTIVE was not solicited here. You decided to give your input (under false pretenses) without an invitation. As such, your silly little biased opinions have been effectively un-invited. NO BULLSHIT WANTED.

    Either you can make real objective points and maintain an objective posture or spare us the BULLSHIT!

    quote:
    It is 1a's intention to nail this guy, stating racist intent will help his cause
    NO BULLSHIT WANTED!

    There is no objective standard used here by you in gauging the INTENT of Chavers. You have subjectively, very subjectively and prejudice-ly, ascribed a motive to Chavers that you cannot establish and maintain as an objective treatment and consideration of what Chavers actual INTENT is.

    Take your WHITE BULLSHIT on down the road.
    quote:
    he doesn't care what the teachers intent was.
    And, obviously, your biased ass doesn't care what Chavers INTENT was... You have and you will just assign one to him without an honest analysis.

    NO BULLSHIT WANTED!

    quote:
    my opinion that the teacher was not a racist is viable.
    NO IT IS NOT!

    Hmmmm.... Funny how you placed a "positive" value on Mr. Underwood's statement without knowing that critical information. With that said, Mr. Underwood's statement is about as pertinent as Ricky Jones' (the Pan-African Studies chair) or, more comparably, SHAREKA MORROW'S. Now, how come you didn't list her statement as #4 or something? How come didn't give equal weight to her statement?

    You have not answered for your SELECTIVITY and blatant BIAS.

    quote:
    We have only one objective viewpoint as to intent, I'm siding with that guy
    NO! You have not objectively weighed his viewpoint. [1] You don't know whether he was an actual WITNESS of the incident; [2] You haven't identified the possible prejudices he has (just because he's had "positive" experiences with the teacher does make his experiences a negater of Chavers' experience); and [3] There is MORROW'S viewpoint that you continue to not account for, individually. Her's was a viewpoint separate from #3.

    You have done nothing but employed CIRCULAR REASONING, Picked & Chose what fits your predetermined conclusion. NOTHING from that type of process is "viable".

    quote:
    if the intent was as I think
    Telling... NO BULLSHIT ALLOWED!

    quote:
    the teacher would not have used the word had it not been in common use by the students going to that school
    This is BULLSHIT! And BULLSHIT is not allowed. THERE IS NO HYPOCRISY unless it's hypocritical, in this case in particular, to hold teachers and ADULTS to different standards that students/kids are held to.

    This is the utter LUNACY of your "explanation." There is a "double-standard" in how Teachers and Students are "treated"... But you have no beef with that. Until it conflicts with your idiotic WHITE PERSPECTIVE.

    quote:
    the students [are] protesting a situation they had a direct hand in creating
    Thanks but NO BULLSHIT ALLOWED.
    Blaming the "Victim"... is so utterly retarded here. You're back to that "HE SAID IT FIRST" juvenile BULLSHIT! And that's the basis of your argument...

    Now that says a lot about you and your "analysis."

    quote:
    I was expecting you to go off on a tangent...
    And this shows your RANK prejudices. Those things you ASSUME without reason. And yes... that shit, too, is RACIALIZED. Expect me to check your BULLSHIT at every point. That's what you can expect. Other than that, stop showing how incredibly ill-equipped and PREJUDICED you are.

    And you can read BOLD PRINT:
    HOW ARE WHITES HARMED BY NOT BEING ABLE TO SAY "NIGGER"?

    quote:
    "WHO GIVES A FUCK what you do and don't support??"

    You give a fuck, or else you wouldn't be bothering to respond. Fucking twit.
    NO THE FUCK I DON'T....

    Expect me to check your BULLSHIT at every point. There is no other correlation. But such is your pre-school level of logic. You come to this forum but you presume what you say and think to be important because you came to this forum??

    Get the fuck out of here!

    Expect me to check your BULLSHIT at every point.
    quote:
    I wonder if the teacher thought he could and would have a better relationship with his Black students if he used the N-word.


    JACO?? Put up or SHUT UP!


    HOW ARE WHITES HARMED BY NOT BEING ABLE TO SAY "NIGGER"?

    Put up or SHUT UP!
    You called it "hypocrisy", you invoked the Civil Rights Movement et al... Answer the question.

    quote:
    I was simply stating that prejudicial intent existed in this specific situation
    What the FUCK does that mean?

    HOW ARE WHITES HARMED BY NOT BEING ABLE TO SAY "NIGGER"?

    "ALL" my azz! Answer the question.
    quote:
    This is despite their own use of the word, infering that despite civil rights movements, the colour of your skin does matter as far as objective treatment in concerned.
    What is the "OBJECTIVE TREATMENT" in this whole WHITES CAN'T SAY THE N-WORD thingy that amounts to anything worth mentioning in the same conversation as the Civil Rights Movement?

    Seriously? What Civil Right is being violated when we say WHITES CAN'T and BETTER NOT SAY THE N-WORD?

    What is the harsh, unfair and DISADVANTAGING treatment that's being visited/imposed on Whites by making the N-Word off limits?


    Prejudicial my azz!! The teacher's use of the word was PREJUDICIAL. It was RACIALIZED. He picked out ONE RACE. There is no info. about him trying to "feel more comfortable" with any other racial/ethnic group of students.

    And you didn't just call the student(s) protests "prejudicial" you call them RACIST - "BIGOTED".

    quote:
    If people look at the color of someone's skin before deciding whether to take offense at a remark, all it shows is that they are at least as racist... Don't feed me that crap, bigotry is bigotry.
    STOP HATIN' ON YOURSELF!!
    Those were your words. So what happened when I pressed you and EXPOSED your BULLSHIT?

    NMAG:
    Now, let's see you demonstrate how the two are comparable in ACTUALITY. So, yes, let's here you detail how the two are equally or similarly "bigoted" in real life use, impact and effect.

    JACO:
    Frown I'll admit that there are differences between the two Frown


    Now you know why I say NO BULLSHIT ALLOWED.

    quote:
    quote:
    I was simply stating that prejudicial intent existed in this specific situation
    And you're simply telling a BOLD FACED LIE!

    You said:
    They are at least as racist..."



    Expect me to check your BULLSHIT at every point.
    From your last post you repeated the question "HOW ARE WHITES HARMED BY NOT BEING ABLE TO SAY "NIGGER"?"

    The post before it I answered
    "By the government officially setting a standard which made a distinction upon the basis of ethnicity... As far as the actual usage of the word goes, I personally wouldn't be hurt at all. Its nice to see we agree on a concept we've both repeated over and over again."

    You didn't bother reading my post. Nor the posts where I said I didn't think the word nigga was appropiate. Nor the posts where I said I agreed with the teachers punishment. I have a hard time believing you thouroughly read any of my posts before vomiting out your preconcieved rebuttals to what you assumed I was saying.

    "Dude, you didn't come here under the pretense that you were presenting a WHITE PERSPECTIVE."

    Racist as hell. Perspectives are situational and based upon personal experience. They don't come as a package deal with the colour of your fucking skin.

    "QTY, what I wanted to say is that there is this perverse desire where WHITE PEOPLE WANT TO CALL BLACK PEOPLE "NI@@ER" and so this becomes an issue for them."

    Racist. What kind of dumbass comes across the idea that all white people having the perverse desire to call black people "nigger." Answer, a racist one.

    "Remember... He was trying to relate and feel [more] comfortable with (*ahem*) BLACK STUDENTS. Not White... Not Hispanic... Not Asian... Not Arab/Middle Eastern... BLACK STUDENTS. Now, by your own definition, since it is a situation where ONE "RACE" is singled out... that's "RACIST."

    Then the use of the word "nigga" is racist in any situation, yet you condone its use among blacks. There is a conflict of cognitions there, one that is apparently not new, looking back at your conversations with Frenchy. You are a racist, and a confused one at that.

    Whats more you come across as an ignorant sack of shit. I'd respect your opinion more if you actually read my posts rather than assuming what they might contain. The racism doesn't help much either.

    In closing, you have no intention of productive discussion, go fuck yourself you ignorant and obstinate son of a ruptured bitch. You can have the last word now you goddamn troll.
    quote:
    The post before it I answered
    "By the government officially setting a standard which made a distinction upon the basis of ethnicity... As far as the actual usage of the word goes, I personally wouldn't be hurt at all. Its nice to see we agree on a concept we've both repeated over and over again."
    Ummmm.... That was an answer to a different question. And the question was NEVER about you "personally."
    quote:
  • HOW ARE WHITES HARMED BY NOT BEING ABLE TO SAY "NIGGER"?

  • If an official U.S. law was made that banned the N-Word and made it something that only Whites had to abide by (not saying it)... HOW WOULD WHITES BE HARMED??
  • See!? You faked like you answered THE SECOND ONE. HOW WOULD...? HOW ARE...? = Different questions. And, again, NEITHER asked about you "personally."

    But, thanks... Now it's all clear that all your talk about the thing with the teacher being "JUST AS RACIST" and it being "BIGOTRY" is/was nothing but BULLSHIT!!

    quote:
    You didn't bother reading my post. Nor the posts where I said I didn't think the word nigga was appropiate. Nor the posts where I said I agreed with the teachers punishment. I have a hard time believing you thouroughly read any of my posts before vomiting out your preconcieved rebuttals to what you assumed I was saying.
    I read all of that. And all of that is IRRELEVANT! You're still speaking about you "personally." My question wasn't "personal" to you. So what you think, "personally", is IRRELEVANT.

    Despite all those things you "personally" feel, you still maintain and have tried to defend the teacher. Despite all that you claimed the charge against him was "RACIST" and a form of "BIGOTRY." And that's exactly what my question set out to ascertain but you have pulled up lame and gone mum. You can muster anything intelligent or intellible that explains or justifies that BULLSHIT position of yours.

    quote:
    Racist as hell. Perspectives are situational and based upon personal experience. They don't come as a package deal with the colour of your fucking skin.
    BULLSHIT!! You are here speaking from a WHITE PERSPECTIVE. That's clear. Your position is noted and noted as completely biased towards the WHITE teacher who you clearly give/gave THE BENEFIT OF THE DOUBT because of your "personal" perspective which is laden with the way you view it as a White person. PERIOD.

    The whole time you have transposed and imposed HOW YOU FEEL and what you think AS A WHITE PERSON if you were in that situation as opposed to what the actual situation is. You have tried to forward the notion of being "FALSELY ACCUSED" because that's what your WHITE ASS thinks and that's your "pre-packaged", BIASED thoughts on the issue and not the result of an objective examination of the issue.

    Besides, your "personal experience" is IRRELEVANT to this case. It is not about you save for when you make logical errors when trying to bastardize the facts of the case as you have done.

    quote:
    Racist. What kind of dumbass comes across the idea that all white people having the perverse desire to call black people "nigger." Answer, a racist one.
    Ha! Ha! CRYING RACISM isn't going to help you. And there was NO such statement that declared that "ALL" WHITE people anything...

    PROOF THAT YOU DON'T READ:
    quote:
    And... NO ONE SAID THIS! STAY ON TOPIC!!
    Frown It is racist if you're assuming all white people want to be racist. Frown

    And, again, you pretend to be an authority as if what you say is so, just because you say so. Please stop smelling yourself and get off the low-tech BULLSHIT! No one said anything about ALL WHITE people. IDIOT!! This situation, when you want to talk about probability, can't possibly incorporate ALL WHITE people for ALL WHITE people aren't driven to trip over the so-called "double-standard" of who can use and who can't use the N-Word. So what are you talking about?

    Posted February 15, 2006 07:50 PM
    When you catch the fuck up, let me know.

    quote:
    Then the use of the word "nigga" is racist in any situation, yet you condone its use among blacks. There is a conflict of cognitions there, one that is apparently not new, looking back at your conversations with Frenchy. You are a racist, and a confused one at that.
    NO CONFLICT AT ALL... Those yours is properly noted.

    YOU CAN READ!

    Now, by your own definition, since it is a situation where ONE "RACE" is singled out... that's "RACIST."

    *Ahem*.... BY YOUR DEFINITION. You forwarded that definition, NOT ME! So it's all about your DUMB ASS and your DUMB ASS definition which, when applied across the board, cuts against you.

    You will note, I made no such determination. No such lame, anal, abstract (and lacking) definition. So there is no "Then..." that's applicable to me. It's your definition, not mine. So, in actuality, the CONFUSION and CONTRADICTION is all yours as that very quote of mine made clear.

    quote:
    Then the use of the word "nigga" is racist in any situation
    I have consistently maintained that it isn't. You, not I, have tried to define "racism" in such an inane fashion. That's why you can't answer my question responsibly, effectively:
    HOW ARE WHITES HARMED BY NOT BEING ABLE TO SAY "NIGGER"?

    And you never even faked like you answered this:
    What is the "OBJECTIVE TREATMENT" in this whole WHITES CAN'T SAY THE N-WORD thingy that amounts to anything worth mentioning in the same conversation as the Civil Rights Movement?

    Seriously? What Civil Right is being violated when we say WHITES CAN'T and BETTER NOT SAY THE N-WORD?

    What is the harsh, unfair and DISADVANTAGING treatment that's being visited/imposed on Whites by making the N-Word off limits?


    Obviously you don't/didn't have a pre-fab script that prepared you to answer that. Instead, you'll just make vain claims that it's "Just As Racist" and "Bigotry Is Bigotry"... though you can't produce a functional and objective definition of either term and certainly not one that would qualify what you're calling "racist" either in this situation or with your claims about me as some actual "racism", etc. that meets any serious definition that matches the connotation of the term you invoke.

    EQUIVOCATING and, as a result LYING... will get you nowhere.

    quote:
    Frown Whats more you come across as an ignorant sack of shit. Frown
    Ignorant of what?

    quote:
    Frown I'd respect your opinion more if you actually read my posts rather than assuming what they might contain. Frown
    Big Grin
    JACO SAID: "I was expecting you to go off on a tangent..."

    No SELF-RESPECT, huh? lol

    quote:
    Frown The racism doesn't help much either. Frown
    Yeah and I'm supposed to be fazed by your SUBJECTIVE and SELECTIVE definition and use of the term. As I have shown, you were not calling the TEACHER "racist" for his RACIALIZED activity whereby he singled out BLACK STUDENTS as ones he wanted to "relate" to and feel [more] comfortable with (because of something that's was obviously lacking in his experience and his mindset).

    So, you've already FUCKED THAT UP for yourself. Your selective application of the term renders your accusations MOOT!

    quote:
    In closing, you have no intention of productive discussion, go fuck yourself you ignorant and obstinate son of a ruptured bitch. You can have the last word now you goddamn troll
    Truth is, I've long since demonstrated that you have and never had any intention of having a "productive" discussion because of your noted BIAS. Your noted WHITE BIAS evidenced by you preferencing Underwood's statement to the exclusion of Morrow's...

    That WHITE BIAS of yours is also evidenced by you preferencing the teacher (at every turn). One major contradiction of yours you never reconciled had to do with you not considering BOTH PARTIES' PERCEPTIONS, objectively, in the communication. YOU SAID:
    Put simply... whatever the two parties involved in conversation perceive the meaning of a word to be, that's what the word means in that conversation.

    ... Yet the only party's INTENT or PERCERPTION you effectively explored was that of the WHITE TEACHER'S. You listed nothing but blatant, prejudiced and obstinate opinions about the student. Apparently, how he PERCEIVED things was irrelevant to you. You could just assign him a sinister motive without pause or consideration. Without any type of basis for doing so (save your prejudiced opinions) but you had all types of elaborate schemes/reasons for giving that WHITE TEACHER "The Benefit Of The Doubt."

    You even inserted yourself directly (without the mask) by saying:
    Frown I'd rather be called a dumbass then be called a racist. Frown

    But that's actually revealing. This has really been all about your AVERSION to the term "racist" when applied to someone WHITE. You've certainly have had no such aversion applying it indiscriminately to someone Black. And so, I continue to say NO BULLSHIT WANTED, NO BULLSHIT ALLOWED.

    Your subjective BULLSHIT was readily apparent from the start. What has happened here has been a process by which you couldn't keep the covers you thought you had on your ideas. Basically, you've been Stipped Naked and because of that you reflexive scream "RACISM".

    What an ironic turn of events! lol


    (And, yet again, a selective one to. YOUR DUMB WHITE EQUATION that calls any attention given to race "racism" was what came back to bite you. See...? When we take that lame, abstract and inane concept as the definition of "racism" then we have to judge the teacher as "racist" BY YOUR DEFINITION. Again, his attempt to "relate" to BLACK STUDENTS called attention to their "race". He effectively singled BLACK STUDENTS out and you had/have nothing to say about it. Which figures...)
    quote:
    Originally posted by Nmaginate:
    Not so fast, NAYO...

    I have and will still argue against those with ideas or rather undeveloped sentiments that say "Black folks should never say the N-Word." Not that I support saying it... Just that I, for one, am not that anal nor do I buy the lackluster arguments of most who argue against it.

    Just, FYI...



    So, just playing the devil's argument (for entertainment/cognitive muscle flexing), as opposed to having a pov that you actually support? ok. I'm good with that.

    My pov is that , the 'n' word needs to be obliterated. Since it cannot,and it serves as an excellent tool of institutionalized maintenance of white supremacy/racism, 'I' stand against it anywhere, and everywhere.
    quote:
    So, just playing the devil's argument (for entertainment/cognitive muscle flexing), as opposed to having a pov that you actually support?
    No. There are positions that don't rest at either pole or reside within absolutes.

    quote:
    My pov is that , the 'n' word needs to be obliterated.
    And I'm cool with that... BUT!!
    quote:
    it serves as an excellent tool of institutionalized maintenance of white supremacy/racism
    I don't buy that rhetoric. And beyond that, many of the very people who make that argument aren't so keen at recognizing or attacking actual material elements that function as "tools that maintain White Supremacy/Racism."

    I maintain that the focus on the N-Word is DWELLING ON THE SUPERFICIAL. The N-Word, at best, is symptom, not a cause. It seems to be pretty easy pickings while other more substantive and material things are either ignored or aren't addressed/attacked with the same type of vigor even when those things represent something much more alarming.

    So, no... I don't by that superficial rhetoric. And my position is not about Playing Devil's Advocate.
    ""don't buy that rhetoric. And beyond that, many of the very people who make that argument aren't so keen at recognizing or attacking actual material elements that function as "tools that maintain White Supremacy/Racism."

    I maintain that the focus on the N-Word is DWELLING ON THE SUPERFICIAL.
    __________________________________________

    I do'nt believe that we disagree entirely here. You assume that that is my focal/focus for all things 'white supremacist'--- 'the 'N' word'; that is patently false. I abhor the word because it simply, a loathsome word; full with historical significance as a throwback to the days of African American enslavement.
    ------------------------------------------------

    The N-Word, at best, is symptom, not a cause. It seems to be pretty easy pickings while other more substantive and material things are either ignored or aren't addressed/attacked with the same type of vigor even when those things represent something much more alarming.
    -------------------------------------------

    No argument here; just that because HIV/AIDS is running roughshod throughout the African American/Black community, and unemployment plagues African American youth, and ALL of the social, physical and mental diseases that continue to decimate the African American community are 'bulls in a china shop', still does not lessen the hideous connotative/denotative meaning of the 'N' word. No one is still permitted to call ME that; and not get an adequate response.
    quote:
    You assume that that is my focal/focus for all things 'white supremacist'--- 'the 'N' word'; that is patently false.
    No. I assumed nothing. I was clear in qualifying what I said (and feel) by saying:
    "...many of the very people who make that argument aren't so keen at recognizing or attacking actual material elements..."


    I was simply stating my position. Not attacking or assuming anything about yours for we have not had that type of discussion.

    quote:
    Just because of X, Y, and Z impacting the African-American Community still does not lessen the hideous connotative/denotative meaning of the 'N' word.
    That is not in contention. But those things mention as "Bulls In The China Shop" really don't speak to "tools" that function in a way to institutionalize and maintain white supremacy/racism."

    X, Y, Z are symptoms or products of White Supremacy/Racism or simply the Black Condition/Predicament in the USA. So right here we have lost sight of White Supremacy, what installs it and keeps it in place.

    I mean, you didn't intend to say Black Unemployment, AIDS and all types of diseases within the Black Community "serve as tools of institutionalized maintenance of white supremacy/racism"?? Did you?

    Your statement would only makes sense relative to mine if you did. But I don't think that's what you were trying to say. When I said what I did, I was NOT merely saying there are more important issues, other things to focus on.

    I charge plenty of people who are quick to associate the N-Word with White Supremacy with being incapable or incredibly lacking when it comes to identifying "more substantive and material" elements of White Supremacy. Talking about the X, Y and Z as you have, at least for the purposes of this discussion, shows that you aren't as keen in recognizing or identifying or attacking other things related to White Supremacy.

    That's why I call it rhetoric. It's a pretty popular thing to say... But certain things that aren't that "popular" and aren't that personal or that personally offensive or repulsive go unexamined.

    When I've pressed, few have been able to say what the existence of the N-Word has actual done to the Black Community... or what would happen if the N-Word magically disappeared.

    quote:
    No one is permitted to call ME that...
    That has never been the issue. People who are so personally repulsed by the N-Word want to control what other people say even when it's not directed towards them. That's the issue. Or, more precisely, those people want to be the grand interpreters of what the N-Word means to everyone else. And all that based on how they feel about it.

    But, perhaps, you can tell me when and where those who say the "N-Word" (within the Black Community) have insisted on calling people who feel like you by that name. And, no, the music industry doesn't count. I think we can find a broad consensus against it when it comes to that.
    http://www.wired.com/news/technology/0,70259-0.html?tw=wn_index_2

    Actor Tries to Trademark 'N' Word

    By Rogers Cadenhead | Also by this reporter
    02:00 AM Feb, 23, 2006 EST

    The actor Damon Wayans has been engaged in a 14-month fight to trademark the term "Nigga" for a clothing line and retail store, a search of the U.S. Patent and Trademark Office's online database reveals.

    Wayans wants to dress customers in 14 kinds of attire from tops to bottoms, and use the controversial mark on "clothing, books, music and general merchandise," as well as movies, TV and the internet, according to his applications.

    But, so far, his applications have been unsuccessful. Trademark examiner Kelly Boulton rejected the registration dated Dec. 22, citing a law that prohibits marks that are "immoral or scandalous." A previous attempt by Wayans was turned down on identical grounds six months earlier.

    "While debate exists about in-group uses of the term, 'nigga' is almost universally understood to be derogatory," Boulton wrote to Wayans' attorney, William H. Cox, according to the application.

    Cox and other representatives of the actor did not respond to interview requests about the registration.

    Wayans can appeal the rejection, but experts in trademark law differ on his chances for success.

    Lynda Zadra-Symes, a trademark lawyer in California, said Wayans may be successful. She compared "Nigga" to the successful registration of Dykes on Bikes. The San Francisco Women's Motorcycle Contingent fought the Trademark Office for three years to overturn an initial rejection of a Dykes on Bikes trademark. The mark was published Jan. 24.

    "Because the application was by a group of lesbians it was eventually allowed to publish," Zadra-Symes said.

    "This is a great victory," the group proclaimed on its website. "It affirms our right to determine who we are and how we present ourselves to the world."

    However, Tawnya Wojciechowski, another trademark attorney practicing in California, compared Wayans' application to the ongoing legal case where Washington Redskins trademarks have been challenged by seven Native Americans. "They're going to have a really tough time," Wojciechowski predicted.

    The word "nigga" is ubiquitous in hip-hop music, where it provides half of a rhyming couplet radio listeners never get to hear in the Grammy-winning song "Gold Digger" by Kanye West.

    Ol' Dirty Bastard used the term 76 times in the 1999 album [Censored] Please, not counting repetitions in a chorus.

    In January, an episode of the late-night Cartoon Network series Boondocks was criticized for putting the word in the mouth of a fictionalized Martin Luther King Jr.

    The effort to commercialize "nigga" drew a sharp response from a black school official who participated in a forum about the word earlier this month at Arkansas State University in Jonesboro.

    "I don't care for it in any form," said Dr. Lonnie Williams, associate vice chancellor for student affairs. "Either way you pronounce it, spell it, anything associated with it -- I find it offensive."

    If Wayans succeeds in persuading the Trademark Office to permit the mark, he may have to deal with Keon Rhodan, a 29-year-old entrepreneur in Charleston, South Carolina, who has been using "Nigga" on a line of T-shirts, hoodies and other attire for six years in a part-time, trunk-of-his-car business.

    Rhodan attempted to register "Nigga'Clothing" as a trademark in 2001 and was denied by the Trademark Office.

    "They said it was disparaging," he said.

    Rhodan, who is black, said that he's sold around 2,000 of the shirts at events. When he began selling the shirts, emblazoned with the term "Nigga," he thought he would take criticism, especially from older people.

    "I was in the mall with one of the shirts on, and an old lady said, 'Where did you get that shirt from?'" he said, expecting the worst. "She followed me to the car and bought five shirts for her grandchildren."

    Rhodan believes that affectionate use of the term within the black community should make it an acceptable mark, but the Trademark Office has thus far has not been persuaded by that argument.

    "The very fact that debate is ongoing regarding in-group usage, shows that a substantial composite of African-Americans find the term 'nigga' to be offensive," Boulton wrote in rejecting Wayans.

    Though attempts to commercialize "Nigga" coincide with a generational shift in how the word is perceived, the clothing is still likely to test some boundaries, as Rhodan demonstrated in a phone interview.

    "You couldn't wear it," he said.

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