Skip to main content

Survey Shows Most Blacks Favor Slavery Reparations

Wave Newspapers, News Report, Kevin Herrera, Oct 18, 2005

LOS ANGELES "” Eighty-nine percent of blacks believe the federal government should offer a combination of cash payments, debt forgiveness and social welfare programs to compensate for the devastating effects of slavery and racial segregation, according to a new survey released Tuesday.

Aimed at unifying a movement that has at times seemed fractured, the Reparations Survey, conducted by the Reparations Research and Advocacy Group, will be used to formulate an articulate platform on reparations that more accurately defines the desires of African-Americans. The platform would then be used in negotiations with the federal government and private corporations that profited from slave labor.

"It will be even more difficult than necessary to try and achieve reparations for black folk without asking black folk what they want," wrote David Horne, Ph.D., who started the survey in April 2002 while teaching Pan African Studies at Cal State Northridge. "In order to forge a unified national agenda on reparations, the credible results of a sound survey of the black American population is absolutely necessary."

Volunteers surveyed 6,680 blacks beginning in April 2002. Those who participated in the survey were between the ages of 17 and 80, with over 50 percent being between the ages of 35 and 55. The responses were collected at shopping malls, conferences, political rallies, churches, block club meetings and sporting events.

The survey was conducted in Atlanta, Kansas City, Chicago, Seattle, Portland, Ore., San Francisco, Los Angeles, San Diego, Houston, New York City, Philadelphia, Baltimore, Washington, D.C., Columbia, S.C., and Jacksonville, Fla.

Each person surveyed was asked to answer 21 questions related to reparations for African Americans. Questions ranged from "Do you consider yourself an African American, a.k.a., black American?" to "Do you think that the idea of reparations for African Americans is an issue of justice long denied and overdue?" and "Should substantial financial assistance from the U.S. government to African Americans who want to leave this country to live in Africa be a part of any agreed-upon reparations?"

Respondents were also encouraged to write in their own ideas on how reparations should be paid, including restitution to those who invested in the Freedmen's Bureau Bank, which folded during the Reconstruction Era. Some have also called for incorporating more African-American history into school curriculum and providing more subsidies to black farmers.

As part of any reparations deal, 70 percent of blacks said the president should apologize on behalf of the federal government for the years of Jim Crow discrimination.

Seventy percent also favored a 50-year educational fund for all black youth, allowing them to attend the university of their choice if admitted.

Nearly 80 percent believe that achieving reparations will help heal the racial divide in this country and 80 percent believe that reparations will not make things worse for African Americans.

While the survey failed to ask whether or not blacks think whites should pay for reparations, 80 percent of those surveyed said white Americans, even though they did not own slaves, continue to be enriched from the unpaid labor of slaves.

Horne said volunteers will continue to conduct the survey until 50,000 or more people participate. That figure should be reached or exceeded by next fall, he said. Horne will be attending the Millions More Movement this weekend in Washington, D.C., where he will gather more responses.

© MBM

Original Post

Replies sorted oldest to newest

quote:
Originally posted by Nmaginate:
And nobody cares, B-Nite...

There are people from here from those cities who apparently weren't asked either. People who do agree. So, really? The value of your comment was?


Simply that I disagree and that we need to get beyond talks of reparations. We are better than that. We can build ourselves up and we don't need to keep asking white people for something we aren't going to get.

An even better question is why are you coming at me with such negativity? We need to address each other better.
You could have address this thread and the topic "better" but you chose to be "negative"...

Don't complain when I follow suit and respond with underwhelm-ment at the typical BS with all the ridiculous underlying ideas in your posts.

Your type of rhetoric can be a whole lot better.

  • We need to get beyond talks of reparations.

    What does that mean? To "get beyond" reparations?

  • We are better than that.

    Hmmm.... This is not logically related to the idea that "we aren't going to get [Reparations]."

    Did you even read the quote header for this forum? Think on that for a bit and factor that information into your rhetoric and how you address "us" and this forum.

  • We can build ourselves up...

    And this is related to Reparations HOW?
    This is a counterargument to Reparations HOW?
    How is that idea of yours, which is not lost on anyone here... How Is It Mutually Exclusive to Reparations? How is Reparations, advocating/fighting for it, delaying or forsaking that idea?

    Simply, you are saying what you would prefer rather than Reparations. Nevertheless, proponents for Reparations, plenty if not all, are all about "building ourselves up" WITH or WITHOUT Reparations. That has always been the case.

    So what is your point?
    There is absolutely no idea that can be sustained that suggest, as you do, that Reparations is such an obsession or activity that renders Black people from being incapable of doing anything else in terms of "building themselves up". You logic simply does not follow.

    Since you like stereotypes... How about this one? Since Black folks are known to have good "rhythm"? What makes you feel as if "we" are not able to advocate for Reparations AND "build ourselves up"?

    I mean, please show how one absolutely can't be done while doing the other. Simply, what you're saying doesn't make sense. So while you're revealing what you agree and disagree with, tell us exactly why you are against Reparations. It simply can't be because it is "counterproductive" or time/effort consuming as to take away from "building" ourselves up.

    People balance work/business and their personal lives all the time. Explain how such a balance is not and cannot be achieved and maintained when it comes to Reparations and us "building ourselves up".

    Also, please tell us by what authority have you been called to "preach"... I would appreciate that. You know, since you're making all these rhetorical statements about what we "need" and don't need to do.

    But, beyond that... Your idea that "since we're not going to get it" runs counter to OUR history. I'm sure there were plenty of Black folks talking about "Ya'll slaves need to stop begging White people for freedom... you know they ain't gonna do it."

    So, again, I ask you: WHAT IS THE VALUE OF YOUR COMMENTS?

    I'm sure some Negroes, during Slavery and even during the heart of the Civil Rights Movement, were (with clear history as my witness) exactly what you're trying to: That We Are "Better Than" That. All proud and accepting of the racist status quo, resigned to do precious little in the way of showing enough self-respect as to not accept "NO" - i.e. their "place", their imposed condition, etc. - for an answer.

    Again, please reflect on the forum header quote.

    quote:
    An even better question is why are you coming at me with such negativity?
    Simply put, your "preaching", the condescension therein, is not at all "positive".

    We are "better than that", in your eyes because of what? Those of us who agree with Reparations, advocating for it are what then in your eyes?

    That's your NEGATIVITY. You certainly were not complimenting us.
  • quote:
    Originally posted by blacknite:
    We are better than that. We can build ourselves up and we don't need to keep asking white people for something we aren't going to get.


    Perhaps it's a matter of perception... others may see it as refusing to accept nothing, when we deserve so much for all that continues to be done to us as a whole. We aren't going asking, we are demanding.

    Can we do better than begging the white man, yes. And, we are, especially because no one is asking him for some of what he has, we are preparing to demand some of what we have helped to produce.

    Do we stop with that? Absolutely, not. There are those who will continue with their self-sustaining ways and attempt to spread the word (and deed).
    quote:
    Originally posted by Frenchy:
    Considering where they got the poll participants and the way the questions were posed, I'm not surprised at all (which is not to say that I think Black people don't favor Reparations). I'd be really interested to see a study of how white America feels.


    In spite of the professed 'understanding' heard in the 'halls of the 'liberal', the coin would flip to 89% against.

    I would be really interested to see a 100%-poll of the two houses of Congress.

    Anonymously of course.


    PEACE

    Jim Chester
    quote:
    Originally posted by Nmaginate:
    You could have address this thread and the topic "better" but you chose to be "negative"...

    Don't complain when I follow suit and respond with underwhelm-ment at the typical BS with all the ridiculous underlying ideas in your posts.

    Your type of rhetoric can be a whole lot better.

  • We need to get beyond talks of reparations.

    What does that mean? To "get beyond" reparations?

  • We are better than that.

    Hmmm.... This is not logically related to the idea that "we aren't going to get [Reparations]."

    Did you even read the quote header for this forum? Think on that for a bit and factor that information into your rhetoric and how you address "us" and this forum.

  • We can build ourselves up...

    And this is related to Reparations HOW?
    This is a counterargument to Reparations HOW?
    How is that idea of yours, which is not lost on anyone here... How Is It Mutually Exclusive to Reparations? How is Reparations, advocating/fighting for it, delaying or forsaking that idea?

    Simply, you are saying what you would prefer rather than Reparations. Nevertheless, proponents for Reparations, plenty if not all, are all about "building ourselves up" WITH or WITHOUT Reparations. That has always been the case.

    So what is your point?
    There is absolutely no idea that can be sustained that suggest, as you do, that Reparations is such an obsession or activity that renders Black people from being incapable of doing anything else in terms of "building themselves up". You logic simply does not follow.

    Since you like stereotypes... How about this one? Since Black folks are known to have good "rhythm"? What makes you feel as if "we" are not able to advocate for Reparations AND "build ourselves up"?

    I mean, please show how one absolutely can't be done while doing the other. Simply, what you're saying doesn't make sense. So while you're revealing what you agree and disagree with, tell us exactly why you are against Reparations. It simply can't be because it is "counterproductive" or time/effort consuming as to take away from "building" ourselves up.

    People balance work/business and their personal lives all the time. Explain how such a balance is not and cannot be achieved and maintained when it comes to Reparations and us "building ourselves up".

    Also, please tell us by what authority have you been called to "preach"... I would appreciate that. You know, since you're making all these rhetorical statements about what we "need" and don't need to do.

    But, beyond that... Your idea that "since we're not going to get it" runs counter to OUR history. I'm sure there were plenty of Black folks talking about "Ya'll slaves need to stop begging White people for freedom... you know they ain't gonna do it."

    So, again, I ask you: WHAT IS THE VALUE OF YOUR COMMENTS?

    I'm sure some Negroes, during Slavery and even during the heart of the Civil Rights Movement, were (with clear history as my witness) exactly what you're trying to: That We Are "Better Than" That. All proud and accepting of the racist status quo, resigned to do precious little in the way of showing enough self-respect as to not accept "NO" - i.e. their "place", their imposed condition, etc. - for an answer.

    Again, please reflect on the forum header quote.

    quote:
    An even better question is why are you coming at me with such negativity?
    Simply put, your "preaching", the condescension therein, is not at all "positive".

    We are "better than that", in your eyes because of what? Those of us who agree with Reparations, advocating for it are what then in your eyes?

    That's your NEGATIVITY. You certainly were not complimenting us.
  • You have some serious self esteem issues, dude. You have attacked me in every post and you seem to ramble and come off as self righteous and arrogant. People have their OWN opinions, they don't have to make their posts to fit YOUR personal interests. I can and will post what I feel, regardless if it is a popular opinion or not so learn to live with it.

    We are on the same side, we want whats best for our people so try to remember that when people post and stop being so quick to attack people.
    B-NITE,

    Attack that lack of support for you premise.
    Do that so my self-esteem can be made whole. Forget the side issues. Substantiate the stuff you said. Stop taking stuff personal when it's all about what you said and how you said it or rather how much you didn't establish.

    And just because "we are on the same side", when you're saying some stuff like "We Are Better Than That"... Again? What are you saying that's "positive" about the proponents of Reparations?

    Check that... then get back to me.

    If you don't like the way I responded to you.
    Check that... then get back to me.
    quote:
    Originally posted by Nmaginate:
    B-NITE,

    Attack that lack of support for you premise.
    Do that so my self-esteem can be made whole. Forget the side issues. Substantiate the stuff you said. Stop taking stuff personal when it's all about what you said and how you said it or rather how much you didn't establish.

    And just because "we are on the same side", when you're saying some stuff like "We Are Better Than That"... Again? What are you saying that's "positive" about the proponents of Reparations?

    Check that... then get back to me.

    If you don't like the way I responded to you.
    Check that... then get back to me.
    There is nothing positive about reparations, period. Now check yourself.
    quote:
    Originally posted by ddouble:
    quote:
    Originally posted by blacknite:
    There is nothing positive about reparations, period. Now check yourself.


    That's a BOLD statement - Can you please elaborate on why there is nothing positive about reparations?
    It's a pie in the sky thought to actually believe we will ever recieve them. It's more of us sounding like victims instead of the strong people that we are who understand that this country has always hated us and that we need to build everything we get for ourselves. Although in theory it's a good idea, it's too little way too late.
    Look I mean we've been asking for reparations for years. If we are 89% in favor of this, we need to set a time limit to our demand. Not just keep asking because there will never be a resolution, we'll stay in a loop.
    Secondly, in the meantime we can be working together on a way to get our just due by forming coaltions with the Carribbean, Africa and Latin American nations with significant populations of African descended people. As far as debt relief goes, if anyone knows anything on this subject, the only way that debt relief is being offered to African and Latin American nations is through TOTAL privization of every industry their countries. As a matter of fact I suggest that each of you all go to the World Bank's website and read up on their debt relief program, even do a google search on this topic.
    quote:
    If reparations are "too little," then what would be adequate? You don't seems to be at odds with the fact that Black America is owed something.
    And so he pokes holes in his own logic.

    B-Nite, you complained about "negativity" but again you seem to be okay with you giving off the negativity... That and you're pretty damn comfortable with not supporting, logically, a damn thing you've said.

    quote:
    It's more of us sounding like victims instead of the strong people...
    And so you're calling proponents of Reparations "WEAK". That's very "positive", I hope you know...

    quote:
    We... understand that this country has always hated us and that we need to build everything we get for ourselves.
    So you would either resign us to Manumission or just outright acceptance of either the station of Slavery or the second-class citizenship of post-Slavery/pre-Civil Rights America. Hmm... Which is pretty interesting. Because some very STRONG and PROUD Black People were instrumental in the dismantling of both of those Most Racist Regimes. But you, you would just resign us to merely "doing for ourselves" and not changing the very system that hampers us optimizing that very Do-For-Self and self-determination you espouse as if it exists and is uneffected by the large society and the way that society is ordered.

    quote:
    It's a pie in the sky thought to actually believe we will ever recieve them.
    And so said the slave who depreciated AGITATION against Slavery. So said the scared and/or proud (happy with his "place") Negro during Segregation.

    Now, certainly if our forebears in an age with there were much more reason due to the brutality (imposed with impunity) during those Most Racist Regimes could Do/Force The Impossible Regime Change in their time, when they had much more to lose (like with near certainty their life, etc.)... then, with that as a lesson, your SENTIMENTS (voiced without conviction) only show how comfortable you are with resigning to let that "hate" and disrespect to our peoplehood go.

    I believe one of the great lessons of the Civil Rights Movement was that challenging the established order was a very positive thing for the Black Soul. Now, they did that knowing full well that "White People HATED" them, in a way that was much more vivid and "real" then than it supposedly (and perhaps actually) is today. So what is the problem?

    I suggest that that same type of thing is a major part of what makes the fight for Reparations "positive".

    quote:
    As I have written previously, the greatest challenge in the national debate over African-American reparations is in convincing black people, not whites, that we can actually win. The greatest struggle of the oppressed is always against their own weaknesses, doubts, and fears. The reparations demand is most liberating because it has the potential for transforming how black people see themselves, and our own history.

    http://www.zmag.org/sustainers/content/2002-10/30marable.cfm
    Simply put, I agree with that logic and historically proven sentiment.

    The fact that you use the words "victims" with a negative connotation (when that's actually what reparations/restitution is about - compensating, restoring to "victims" what "they" have lost) shows how you have some very "NEGATIVE" attitudes that run counter to the spirit of some of the STRONGEST examples of Strong Black People in our history here.

    Now, check your "Foolish Pride" and other "they hate us" sentiments against that. Check it against the very history of the work and sacrifice of some very STRONG BLACK PEOPLE who have contributed to whatever it is you think we can and should do in terms of "building ourselves up".

    But still, you've never spoke to how fighting to change the system or placing demands on the system is either counterproductive to or mutually exclusive from "building ourselves up".

    Show your "self-esteem" and contend with that.

    quote:
    I can and will post what I feel, regardless if it is a popular opinion...
    As I have done with you. Now, why are you crying to me because you don't like the way I feel about what you have written, here or wherever?

    Take your own apparent advise:
    LEARN TO LIVE WITH IT.

    Also, as arrogantly as I can... Please, learn how to support your claims and contentions. Sweeping (and/or unsupported) statements will be CHECKED, btw.
    quote:
    Originally posted by Frenchy:
    quote:
    it's too little way too late.

    If reparations are "too little," then what would be adequate? You don't seems to be at odds with the fact that Black America is owed something.
    Actually I am at odds with the idea that black America is "Owed" something. I think the people that were owed died years ago. We are their decendants yes, but if you owe an enemy a debt and that enemy and their child dies without recieving any payment, what would make you want to pay off your debt to their grandchildren? In this case we are the grandchildren and the American government has always been an enemy to our people so if they didn't pay our great grandparents what they were owed what makes you think they would give it to us? This is just a general question, it's not directed at you.
    quote:
    Actually I am at odds with the idea that black America is "Owed" something. I think the people that were owed died years ago.
    Then that's what you "need" to have said from the Get-Go instead of all that "negative" *ish!

    I know I could give $$$$ what you think about someone who's a proponent of Reparations. But, we have you on record with that "negative" *ish. You think proponents of Reparations are essentially "WEAK".

    Speaking about that four-letter word in quotes above... (I'm trying Frenchy):
    quote:
    In this case we are the grandchildren and the American government has always been an enemy to our people so if they didn't pay our great grandparents what they were owed what makes you think they would give it to us?
    Once again, without me asking the value of your rhetorical question (which is almost inherently problematic): SO SAID THE SLAVE... SO SAID THE NEGRO.

    We can just substitute that emotion-born, Lack Of STRENGTH-and-Resolve laden SENTIMENT of yours like so:

    SLAVE:
  • If they didn't [free] our parents/grandparents, etc. what makes you think they [will free] us?

    NEGRO:
  • If they didn't [stop Jim Crow] for our parents/grandparents, etc. what makes you think they [will end it] for, because of us?


    Your view again butts up against, is complicated and CONTRADICTED by, a STRONG and POWERFUL (and proud) BLACK HISTORY of not resigning to those types of thoughts. Those type of non-centered, conviction lacking SENTIMENTS.
  • quote:
    Originally posted by blacknite:
    Actually I am at odds with the idea that black America is "Owed" something. I think the people that were owed died years ago. We are their decendants yes, but if you owe an enemy a debt and that enemy and their child dies without recieving any payment, what would make you want to pay off your debt to their grandchildren?


    That conclusion is not related to the first part of your comments.

    You are saying:
    1. Slaves were owed payment
    2. Their children were owed inheritance for what their parents did not receive
    3. Why would white people want to pay it to any future heirs?

    I'm not following your line of thinking. It seems to me that what white people would want to do (while somewhat important), is completely unrelated to whether or not Black people are owed Reparations.

    My thinking is:
    1. Slaves were owed payment
    2. Their children were owed inheritance for what their parents did not receive
    3. Their grandchildren were owed inheritance for what their grandparents did not receive

    And so forth. I understand that you don't think that actually receiving Reparations is likely, but I still don't see where you feel that Black people are not owed something separate and aside from that and whether or not any real or imagined statute of limitations has run out.

    quote:
    Speaking about that four-letter word in quotes above... (I'm trying Frenchy)


    I know! cabbage Wink
    quote:
    Originally posted by blacknite:
    quote:
    Originally posted by ddouble:
    quote:
    Originally posted by blacknite:
    There is nothing positive about reparations, period. Now check yourself.


    That's a BOLD statement - Can you please elaborate on why there is nothing positive about reparations?
    It's a pie in the sky thought to actually believe we will ever recieve them. It's more of us sounding like victims instead of the strong people that we are who understand that this country has always hated us and that we need to build everything we get for ourselves. Although in theory it's a good idea, it's too little way too late.


    Being a strong people is definitely a plus for us, however the issue at hand is how can a country as powerful as the US not reconigze and acknowledge the role that african slaves played in building this country.

    While the idea of us lifting ourselves up is a fine one it would probably work much better if there wasn't a foot pushing us back down. To build something for us quite simply takes capital and material, and since the "man" controls all of it, it only stands to reason that compensation for what we have suffered should include both.
    I believe we are owed, BUT, I am not so sure we should be pursuing reparations. I think that we could spend the time and energy on seeking reparations to build wealth- and have greater success. I also think that a lot of black folks don't understand what reparations would mean. I think we could never sream "foul" again. We could never complain about unfair treatment. Affirmative Action would go away, permanently. So called minority set-asides would disappear.

    I reject the neocon arguments that race relations would suffer or that it would be to difficult to execute, etc.

    But, I think we do better when we expect nothing from "them" and focus on achieving our objectives with great passion.

    Unpopular, I'm sure, but just MHO.
    quote:
    Originally posted by Warren:

    I also think that a lot of black folks don't understand what reparations would mean. I think we could never sream "foul" again. We could never complain about unfair treatment. Affirmative Action would go away, permanently. So called minority set-asides would disappear.


    In my opinion you are talking about apples and oranges. Reprations, as I see it, is about recuperating lost wages. Period. Affirmative action, for example, is about counterbalancing white racism and sexism. The two - while perhaps connected by a common defendant - have little to do with each other.
    Warren has a point.

    Reparations has to be settlement. If done correctly, that settlement will include a 'facilitating mechanism' that will minimize, if not preclude, continued obstruction by system.

    All codification, both legal and institutionall policy, has be included in that settlement, as well as the mechanism for ultimate authority to identify and expunge/negate.

    Maybe an ultimate 'court of review.'

    For lack of a better term.

    PEACE

    Jim Chester
    MBM wrote:

    quote:
    Reprations, as I see it, is about recuperating lost wages.


    With all due respect, MBM, I have an issue with that logic. The wages were not lost to us... or even our parents... or in most cases our grandparents. That is not to say that I don't see that institutional racism has played a part in keeping Blacks from achieving the levels of success that most of us here think we should. But the problem and the expressed solution seem somewhat disconnected.

    I wrote this passage in response to a similar statement expressed in a seperate discussion in this forum and would love to get your reaction (edited):

    *****************************
    I hear what your saying. If my dad passed away tomorrow I would expect to pick up the check he earned for the month.

    But, let's take a closer look at that (and this isn't a criticism of the logic, only probing for understanding):

    If my great grandfather died while working in 1920 would his employer, ownership of which by now has changed hands 5-6 times, be expected to pay me for wages he didn't pick up? For the sake of argument, let's assume that no one picked up that check back then.

    What if I wasn't a blood relative but claimed a connection based on the fact that we had the same last name? Would you, as the new owner, demand some proof of blood connection?

    What if I claimed that not only were his wages due to me but they had now grown to include an adjustment for inflation and pain and suffering? Would you be interested in paying that too?

    What if not only you were required to pay me this expanded fee but your in-laws had to chip in too because in 1920 they owned a business on the same street as your business, even though my Great Grandfather never worked for them?

    *****************************

    You can read the entire thread here, including a vigorous defense of reparations by Nmaginate.

    MBM, I simply think that the entire effort, while the proposed end result is noble, is at best a quixotic notion. Knowing what I know -- hell, what we all know -- about white people and American politics... it will never happen in America. Ever.

    So... we beat each up about it, rather than probing for understanding of the opposing position. Anyone who says they are not for it is devalued and, sooner or later, called an Uncle Tom, a sell-out, or a mouth-piece for whitey. All for pieces of pie that will never be baked.

    And regarding the survey... if you ask anyone about getting money/benefits/services for nothing (and don't take offense to that... I mean not as a direct result of effort on their part) anywhere in America they will be for it. No matter what their race or ethnicity.

    In my very humble opinion.
    quote:
    In my opinion you are talking about apples and oranges. Reprations, as I see it, is about recuperating lost wages. Period. Affirmative action, for example, is about counterbalancing white racism and sexism. The two - while perhaps connected by a common defendant - have little to do with each other.


    MBM your point is well taken, but I don't think that any of that would matter to yt. They would be like okay, here you go. Now the playing field is even and quit your bitchin. Understand that I'm not saying that they would be right or that we aren't owed. I am saying that in my experience, the black folks who have the greatest success in this country are the ones who act (and work and network) as if nobody owes them anything and this is the greatest country on earth. It just seems that subconciously once you accept that "they" are foul and "we" have to work twice as hard to get half as far and "they" will never deal with "us" fairly, you (we) can focus on living our dreams. Corny, yeah. Hoky, probably. But this has been my experience.
    quote:
    Originally posted by NativeAlien:
    MBM wrote:

    quote:
    Reprations, as I see it, is about recuperating lost wages.


    With all due respect, MBM, I have an issue with that logic. The wages were not lost to us... or even our parents... or in most cases our grandparents.


    The way I see things, slave families contributed critical "venture capital" at the 'start-up' of the US economy. Their labor capitalized this nation and, in so doing, subsidized the standard of living for Americans from day one to the present. Those same families exist here in the United States. That same United States government exists. The same US government has an opportunity to allow the same families to cash in the investment that they have been holding onto for generations. In the same way that, say, a government bond issued in the past would be payable on demand today, in my opinion, our investment in this nation created value for this country, and deserves to be repaid. Certainly our nation is now capable of redeeming that investment. Certainly it is the moral and right thing to do.

    quote:

    I hear what your saying. If my dad passed away tomorrow I would expect to pick up the check he earned for the month.


    Two sides to this analogy: if your dad passed away with assets - certainly those assets would pass down to heirs. If he had debts, they also would be the responsibility of his estate. Same concept applies here - IMO.
    quote:

    If my great grandfather died while working in 1920 would his employer, ownership of which by now has changed hands 5-6 times, be expected to pay me for wages he didn't pick up? For the sake of argument, let's assume that no one picked up that check back then.


    Why not? What would have occurred to have canceled that moral obligation of the company?
    quote:

    What if I claimed that not only were his wages due to me but they had now grown to include an adjustment for inflation and pain and suffering? Would you be interested in paying that too?


    There are plenty of scenarios that can be created to make it seems as if reparations is unsound. The core fact remains that there are families in this country today who invested of their blood, sweat, and tears in this nation - in this economy - for hundreds of years. Let's remember that slavery was about pure and unadulterated greed and avarice. It was simply about reaping more profit - at any and all cost. So called Christians rationalized their behavior in treating other human beings worse than livestock all because they wanted more money. There was obviously absolutely nothing in the slightest that was honorable or redeeming about the institution. So with that as context, and based upon the fact that current American wealth is - in part - due to what slaves contributed to/invested in this nation - then I see no reason for America not to repay this long over-due investment.
    quote:
    Knowing what I know -- hell, what we all know -- about white people and American politics... it will never happen in America. Ever.


    In my humble opinion, the distance from where are today to the point where America would pay reparations is much closer than where were as chattel property to where we are today. If reparations is an end point, IMO, we are already great than 50% there.
    It sure is fascinating that the fallback position of anti-reparationists (of all persuasions) is:

    Knowing white people it will never happen in America. Ever!

    That being the case, that always being a part, hell a ploy, of their positions? Why bother to pretend as if they are quarreling with the merits of the argument for Reparations?

    What part of the "It's Not Going To Happen" lyric even begins to be in a discussion about the merits of Reparations?

    N-Alien claimed to differ under this pretense:
    With all due respect, MBM, I have an issue with that logic.

    Well, with all due respect, talking about whether something concieveably will or won't happen is not a discussion about the "rightness", "wrongness" or even the LOGIC of it.

    quote:
    Anyone who says they are not for it is devalued and, sooner or later, called an Uncle Tom, a sell-out, or a mouth-piece for whitey. All for pieces of pie that will never be baked.
    N-Alien, take some ownership of your position and the stuff your regurgitated. There is definitely a discussion, a debate and even a polar For vs. Against argument we can have over Reparations. But I'd be damn if you or anybody is going to come into such a discussion/debate and insult my intelligence or anyone else's repeating verbatim what has been repeated in the WHITE MEDIA ad nasausem.

    The point is, if we are going to debate or discuss this don't bring no dumb WHITE $hit into the conversation. (You can reflect back on your Talking Points list of things you put in that other thread). While you may have taken some time in drafting your thoughts on fighting for Reparations For Africa, you obviously didn't take much time to vet that list of questions I could get from David Horowitz or any White guy on the net who wants to argue it. Even a White guy who will say, "I'm willing to be convinced."

    So you can chill with that BS about "Uncle Tom" this and that. You made the choice to virtually Cut & Paste, essentially, White sentiments in the form of those questions.

    FOR EXAMPLE:
    Horowitz #3 = What of the majority of southerners who did not own slaves?
    Horowitz #3 & Jeff Jacoby = How about the families of the 300,000+ union troops that died during the Civil War, in part to end slavery? Do their descendents get a free pass on paying reparations?
    Horowitz #1 = What of freedmen who owned slaves?, etc.

    http://www.freerepublic.com/forum/a3a54b37c6b16.htm
    http://www.boston.com/news/globe/editorial_opinion/oped...e_slavery_shakedown/

    And regarding the survey...
    Beyond your Appeal To Motive, somehow you remove yourself from that "ANYONE". There simply is no such automatic correlation, no matter how greedy Americans are. I doubt very seriously that proponents on this site, for one, are those who advocate for Reparations for the sake of what they can personally get out of the situation.

    And that just shows how ridiculous and hypocritical positions like yours are. You enter this whole conversation making an untenable allegation: That the arguments for Reparations (or some unidentified ones) are born out of some curious (preconcieved, let the truth be told) notion of yours that they are typified by "They benefited, now [it's] our turn" type of emotional and, hence, unreasoned argument. You do that but at the same time want to whine and cry about how your arguments are characterized (and with greater accuracy, I might add).

    So, not only have you repeated the Obstructionist questions that prevail in White America - a Statement Of Fact - but you have also been very quick to ascribe the same motive to proponents for Reparations that prevails in White America. And to top that off, you've registered your concerns for how Whites will percieve us... So, frankly, none of that stuff can go unnoticed and unaddressed. Those are you issues that you have to deal with accordingly.

    But back to how you color yourself as someone, presumably, morally superior. Of course that was done from the outset. You projected what have been demonstrated to be your emotional and fallacious argument onto proponents of Reparations. You claimed "our" arguments were emotion-based and unreasoned when the fact of the matter is those are, by far, better descriptions of your arguments right down to your "self-respect" and "how will Whites view us" sentiments.

    Also, again, you position yourself to be morally superior because you will pretend that you have no selfish motive involved, even suggest that you would defy your own take on what people would do or say to get "something for nothing" but, by extension, make no such allowance for those of us who are in favor of Reparations. Apparently, our position must be selfishly, personally motivated.

    The title survey here, aside... (and I think Frenchy may have requested something like this)... it appears that, at least in 2003, every Black person (accepting your framing of the issue as "getting something for nothing" via cash checks, I'm sure) wasn't on that bandwagon:



    http://www.harvardmagazine.com/on-line/050319.html
    quote:
    Originally posted by NativeAlien:

    MBM, while we are still far apart on the issue I truly appreciate the respectful tenor and tone you took in your response. As reasonable people we can surely agree to disagree when middle ground cannot be found.

    Thank you.


    Do you have specific disagreements with my points?
    As an immigrant from the West Indies I am some what bummed that I will not be getting reparations anytime soon.
    I am further confused as to what my reparation amount would be as I (although look black through and through) do have a hint of white, indian and asian in my ancestory.
    Do I get to claim for native american genocide as well or what about my great, great great great grandfather being an indentured servant?

    Like where do I begin or end with reparation? Now that I have moved to Canada can I file here or do I file back in the West Indies? No wait best to file here in Canada cause I would be laughed at back on my home island.

    Reparation is a great idea if you have living victims like the the japanese or jews but there are not more living slaves from the 1800's.
    Nmaginate:

    You off your meds again, dog? You know what the doc said.

    You and I don't converse because you're the brotha at the picnic that talks the loudest and the longest and when everyone walks aways bored... you mistaken it for victory.

    You must really need the loot to get so wrapped up in this, my man. I can spare a little change for you, dude.

    Ciao! heart
    quote:
    You must really need the loot to get so wrapped up in this, my man.
    In other words, you have no counterargument... You just want to whine because your feelings get hurt when you are subjected to the scrutiny you prefer to hold others to.

    That's why you're relishing MBM's "tenor" because he allowed you to save face.

    Again, it's really pretty simple:
    You made the choice to virtually Cut & Paste, essentially, White sentiments... Don't cry, bitch or moan when your C&P is indentified for what it is and your argument is demonstrated for it's clear lack of reason and overbearing emotional nature.

    quote:
    Frown We beat each up about it, rather than probing for understanding of the opposing position. Anyone who says they are not for it is devalued and, sooner or later, called an Uncle Tom, a sell-out, or a mouth-piece for whitey. Frown
    So, again, take some ownership and some responsibility. Your entry into this conversation was not an example of "probing for understanding" without you throwing out some "devaluing" and character assasinating assertions out of your own.

    Next time, please be sure to say that you need someone to treat you with kit-gloves when it comes to discussing or debating this subject.

    But, please... please list your statements that valued proponents of Reparations. Funny how you talk about hand outs but apparently want all types of special considerations and allowances just for you and those in/for your position. I guess you're suppose to have a valuable position just on GP or something. You're suppose to be "heard" just because you think you have something to say (as you repeat things already said by "Whitey").

    Now, WTF is that?

    quote:
    You and I don't converse because you're the brotha at the picnic that talks the loudest and the longest and when everyone walks aways bored... you mistaken it for victory.
    No, I properly see it as your inability to stand up to a challenge. Seems to be a theme with you on this...

    Obviously, you want to talk shit but still want to be coddled when it's your turn to have your views examined.
    quote:
    Originally posted by blackbutterfly:
    Am I mistaken or did the Japan as well as the Jews receive reparations?


    Yes, both groups did. The Jewish survivors of the holocaust, if I'm not mistaken, also received or are in the process of negotiating some kind of payment from Swiss banks that held onto money & valuables deposited by Nazis and their partners-in-crime.
    We're not as far removed from slavery as people (usually our people) have been misled to believe. Consider this excerpt from an article written in 2001:
      My family owned slaves in eastern North Carolina, and when, seven years ago, I happened to meet a descendent of those slaves, I felt, strangely, vexed. Miss Mattie Ebron was tiny, ancient and frail. All her life she had worked at the crab house, ironed white people's linens and tended to white people's children. Her house was dark and dank, boarded up.

      Miss Mattie was matter-of-fact about her connection to my family. In fact, she remembered my grandparents with affection. Still, there were uncomfortable truths: A century and a half after slavery, Miss Mattie and her family were poor. Many of them were in bad health. Few had managed to leave the county they'd been brought to generations earlier. Sitting in her kitchen I considered the parallel fates of our families. Could the enormous incongruities be traced back to slavery? Before I met Miss Mattie that question would have been unsettling; now, with her sitting before me, gaunt and toothless and impossibly cheerful, it seemed horrifying.
    Reparation is a great idea if you have living victims like the the japanese or jews but there are not more living slaves from the 1800's.---Blacksanction

    You didn't specify where in West Indies you immigrated from. If your came from a U. S. Territory, you are American from birth of course.

    Typically, the understanding of 'West Indies' is muddy n the minds of most Americans. The West Indies is perceived as all the islnnds of The Caribbean.

    Reparations is an issue between United States and African American. If you belong to either you belong to both.

    In the case, the intent of your exercise is curious.

    Further, it is likely that the most African American-Americans have not be able to retain a purely African lineage.

    What is your point?


    PEACE

    Jim Chester
    JWC

    I came from St. Kitts B.W.I.

    I my intent was sarcasm as I full well know that neither I nor my ancestors are going to get reparations anytime in the future.As well due to some of my great great grand parents mixing with white and asian I am not 100% black but in appearance. So I was wondering aloud how this would factor in (reparation payments) as some afro-americans face the same problem.

    I further believe that if the Native North Americans are not getting settlement claims for their lands and the genocide perpatrated against their ancestors it is unlikely to expect reparation for former slaves- the cost is not one that the majority would want to pay for some thing that they were not involved with.
    quote:
    Originally posted by Blacksanction:
    JWC

    I came from St. Kitts B.W.I.

    I my intent was sarcasm as I full well know that neither I nor my ancestors are going to get reparations anytime in the future.


    That's true because this particular issue is about African Americans. But, if St. Kitts has some kind of movement in the future...

    quote:

    As well due to some of my great great grand parents mixing with white and asian I am not 100% black but in appearance.


    Oh', you're an MGM (multi-generation mixture). You're special. There is a website and a thread about people just like you.

    quote:
    So I was wondering aloud how this would factor in (reparation payments) as some afro-americans face the same problem.


    Problem? What problem?

    quote:
    I further believe that if the Native North Americans are not getting settlement claims for their lands and the genocide perpatrated against their ancestors it is unlikely to expect reparation for former slaves- the cost is not one that the majority would want to pay for some thing that they were not involved with.


    No one here was involved in the decision to intern the Japanese, but our tax dollars paid for their reparations. We didn't benefit financially from it, either. But no one asked me if it was okay to take my tax dollars. Dagnabit!!

    I wonder why the political disenfranchisement of the formerly enslaved is never addressed by the opponents of the movement. The debt of a government isn't limited to the lifespan of human beings. That should be clear considering Haiti was extorted for reparations (loss of slave labor) to France, with the backing of the U.S. government, and it took them 100 years to pay it... but pay it they did.

    As someone posted previously, the rightness or wrongness of reparations is the issue, not whether it seems feasible to any one individual.
    Nmaginate wrote (in crayon during a sweat dripped frenzy):

    quote:
    In other words, you have no counterargument... You just want to whine because your feelings get hurt when you are subjected to the scrutiny you prefer to hold others to.


    My heart continues to beat at its previous pace. No feelings hurt here, brotha. You're the one exhibiting the uncontrolled rage.

    quote:
    Obviously, you want to talk shit but still want to be coddled when it's your turn to have your views examined.


    Yawn! Brotha... are you still jawing?

    Yours truly in love and affection.

    I Remain,

    NativeAlien
    MBM wrote:

    quote:
    The way I see things, slave families contributed critical "venture capital" at the 'start-up' of the US economy. Their labor capitalized this nation and, in so doing, subsidized the standard of living for Americans from day one to the present. Those same families exist here in the United States. That same United States government exists. The same US government has an opportunity to allow the same families to cash in the investment that they have been holding onto for generations. In the same way that, say, a government bond issued in the past would be payable on demand today, in my opinion, our investment in this nation created value for this country, and deserves to be repaid. Certainly our nation is now capable of redeeming that investment. Certainly it is the moral and right thing to do.


    I am not disagreeing with the reasoning behind why it is you and others feel reparations are warranted. Clearly someone was exploited and someone reaped the rewards. Additionally, the exploitation was morally reprehensible.

    My concerns are more centered around the realistic prospects of obtaining them and, even if they were won, how much difference would they really make?

    MBM, I will respond to your thoughful and well-reasoned points a little later today... but I would like to pose some questions for you, and others, to consider in the interim and if you like we can gather back here to discuss them this evening.

    What plan have you seen that comes closest to your vision of the implementation of reparations? If you haven't seen it, can you describe what you are thinking when you say 'reparations'?

    Who qualifies for reparations? How? Is there some sort of proof required? Can you be a second generation African American, for instance?

    Is there a means test? Do wealthy (or even middle class) African Americans get access to the pool?

    How are reparations financed? If they are long term benefits/services, how are they sustained?

    What is the marketing strategy? What's in it for them (white folks)... morally, finacially, ethically? I know this is a question that some will be offended with but with only one Black Senator the message will have to resonate with an all white Senate and predominately white House of Reps, and a country moving ever-more to the right.

    Much like Congress just passed laws shielding food companies and gun manufacturers from victim lawsuits, do you think that will occur with regards to companies being sued for reparations? Or, even the government itself?

    Again, I am curious about how you, and others, came to think in the manner which you do. I am not disputing the reasons behind your call for reparations, just whether reparations are the solution to the issues at hand and if it is realistic to even pursue. Currently, my answer to both questions are no.

    Chuck
    quote:
    Originally posted by NativeAlien:
    MBM wrote:

    I am not disputing the reasons behind your call for reparations, just whether reparations are the solution to the issues at hand and if it is realistic to even pursue. Currently, my answer to both questions are no.


    Reparations is the solution to the debt owed. That's the only problem it is meant to rectify.

    Once upon a time, agitating for civil rights was seen as unrealistic. As a result, it was the courageous Africans in America who were willing to march, boycott, protest, sit-in, etc. The rest of them sat back and reaped the benefits.
    Insome wrote:
    quote:
    Reparations is the solution to the debt owed. That's the only problem it is meant to rectify.


    Respectfully, I have an issue with that. I don't see anything as being owed to me except a fair chance at the things I need. I, personally, didn't earn it. That doesn't mean I think what happened was good or fair. It is just that I did no work for it and no one promised me, personally, money for it.

    quote:
    Once upon a time, agitating for civil rights was seen as unrealistic. As a result, it was the courageous Africans in America who were willing to march, boycott, protest, sit-in, etc. The rest of them sat back and reaped the benefits.


    (removing egg from face) Well said.

    But I think the general political climate was different in that the south (and by association, the more conservative wing of the GOP) held significantly less legislative power in the federal governement during that time. Now you have a party moving towards the far right of its fringes and consolidating hold on power that may last a generation or more.

    Even with that said, I stand corrected on your second point and will refrain from using that line of dissent in the future.

    Your first point though, is a point I just can't get past. I have worked hard to place a different ethos in my kids regarding work, expectations, and compensation. If that is the central line of reasoning behind the call for reparations then it is folly for me to continue to discuss the issue, as it is a point that I can not, personally, level with my beliefs.

    I appreciate you taking the time to help me walk through this issue.
    quote:
    Originally posted by NativeAlien:
    Isome wrote:
    quote:
    Reparations is the solution to the debt owed. That's the only problem it is meant to rectify.


    Respectfully, I have an issue with that. I don't see anything as being owed to me except a fair chance at the things I need. I, personally, didn't earn it. That doesn't mean I think what happened was good or fair. It is just that I did no work for it and no one promised me, personally, money for it.


    Reparations includes recompense for that fair chance that you want, and that those before you did not get. The wealth gap in this country can be directly linked to the headstart afforded slave owners by free slave labor, businesses run and owned by white folks that profited from the slave trade, Jim Crow, discriminatory hiring, etc. The effect of that disenfranchisement was that whites were able to prosper in great numbers, compared to the formerly enslaved and their progeny, and then pass the wealth on to the next generation. (I posted the excerpt from an article about the descendant of a slave owner and it alluded to the cummulative effect of wealth handed down.)

    However, I think you may also be under the impression that the payment is a personal check in your hand. It is not. (If it were that would be a whole other can of worms to discuss.) White people put that out there to scare other white people, and since the MSM (main stream media) is broadcast far & wide, we are innundated with the same misinformation.
    quote:
    Originally posted by NativeAlien:

    What plan have you seen that comes closest to your vision of the implementation of reparations? If you haven't seen it, can you describe what you are thinking when you say 'reparations'?

    Who qualifies for reparations? How? Is there some sort of proof required? Can you be a second generation African American, for instance?


    Here are some thoughts from a post from awhile ago to kick start things:

    quote:
    Originally posted by MBM:
    quote:
    Originally posted by AudioGuy:

    How do we decide to disseminate them? In other words, who gets what and how?


    I'll, of course, offer my thoughts. brosmile< !--graemlin::brosmile:--> I look forward to others' thoughts as well!

    Who gets paid? Slave descendants. How? There are a variety of potential schemes to do so. Some are tax incentives and are therefore cash flow negative. Here are some others:

  • a home mortgage fund designed to collateralize the down payments of first time mortgages

  • a fund creating scholarships for private and public schools, colleges, secondary schools, vocational training, etc.

  • creating more, and more valuable economic empowerment zones encouraging the start of new businesses in our communities

  • a venture capital fund designed to capitalize new businesses in our communities

  • a fund devoted to investing in the development (physical infrastructure etc.) of neighborhoods and communities

  • a fund designed to create more localized and better quality health care in our communities

  • individual payments - in the form of cash or special bonds that might encourage long-term investment to maximize their appreciation

    ETC.

    quote:
    Do those who were against the concept benefit? (Ward Connerly, C. Thomas, Tiger, etc.)


    Sure. Why not. If they want to donate their proceeds to some other cause, God bless them!

    quote:
    Do those who "don't need the money" (pro atheletes, entertainers), benefit?


    IMHO, Africans who succeeed in America do so in spite of racism and discrimination and not because there is an even playing field. Therefore, the people who succeed, still only do so despite "swimming upstream". I wonder what Oprah or Reginald Lewis or Bob Johnson would have acheived if they hadn't had to deal with the racial 'drag' created by our society. Oprah has $1B, maybe she would have had $$2B. She deserves a reparation. IMO, all slave descendents should receive a benefit.

    quote:
    Do those whose families that were not enslaved (i.e. immigrants) get a piece of the pie?


    No. Although they were aggrieved, it was not by the U.S. government in the same way. I would, of course, support them in their effort to recieve reparations for thieir specific situation.

    quote:
    How much should we get?


    Here's a post of mine from 7/7/03

    Originally posted by MBM:

    As you've read I characterize slave labor as an "investment" in America. I've also described it as America's 'start-up capital'. To continue that analogy a more appropriate way to think about this would be to calculate the total unpaid wages and think of it as an actual investment in the United States. Doing so would create an equity (ownership) percentage in the United States' economy. That gives slave descendants ownership in the current Gross Domestic Product (GDP) of our economy. So, for the sake of argument, 250 years of slavery for 5 million or so slaves generates a one third equity stake in our economy. Naturally, economists and historians would produce the appropriate numbers to create a more precise figure. First quarter 2003 U.S. GDP was $10.7 trillion. Let's guess that 2003 total GDP will be $45 trillion. 33% of that is $14.85 trillion. Following the logic of this thinking, descendants of slaves would have an equity interest worth almost $15 trillion!
  • quote:
    Originally posted by jazzdog:
    quote:
    Originally posted by blackbutterfly:
    Am I mistaken or did the Japan as well as the Jews receive reparations?


    Japan the country did not receive reparations, Japanese Americans who were interned during the war without due process were for the loss of homes and businesses.


    But then again, the country of Japan did get re-built after the war. Does that qualify as reparations?
    MBM:

    I was going to send this in a private message, but I figured that I probably needed to post it publicly.

    The message follows:

    MBM:

    Hmm. I am certainly not above admitting that there are some specifics that you detail that I had not considered. Which is why I asked you those questions.

    I have much to think about... as well as a little less talking and a little more listening to do.

    To give you some background: It has been hard-wired in me by my Grandparents, Mom, Aunt and Uncles that I wasn't owed anything by anyone in this life and that if I wanted something I had to be the one to go out and get it. Period. Education was stressed in my family as the great equalizer, rightly or wrongly, in a capitalist system. And even then you couldn't trust those in power not to undercut you. I understood that we had to work twice as hard to gain half the success, and I took that as a challenge... not an obstacle. People who know me will tell you that I am extremely focused, excessively driven, and absolutely unflappable. So, I guess it is hard (no, extremely difficult) for me to grasp that people don't look at the situation as I do and just take it on? It is what it is... now go!

    To illustrate this I'll share this personal example; when I am in Gary IN, where my folks live, and I hear brothas gip'n about how bad the white man this... how bad the white man that... my response is, "So. What are you going to do? What if everything you say is true? What are you are going to do about it? You either stand here and whine or you make a plan and go about it." It's what my grandfather used to say to people. Same thing. I always get the most incredulous looks. It isn't that I have an affinity for the white man, I just know how he is and I'm not intimidated by him or anything he can throw up in my way. He will not stop me.

    Something so strongly engrained doesn't disappear overnight... but you have given me insights to consider.

    Thank you for your time.
    quote:
    Originally posted by Blacksanction:

    My parents taught me the same thing- that success is earned through hard work. The only person that can deny you success is yourself.


    If your hard work and perseverance earned you X, but had there not been racism and discrimination you would have earned 3X - would you be interested in recouping the other 2X that was lost - that you had fairly and squarely earned? This is how I view reparations.

    Moreover, it is interesting that some of us are concerned with this broad concept of fairness - of getting only what we earn (which is quite noble I might add), yet white folks are where they are today, largely, because they did so on the backs on black and brown people. To be clear, they didn't earn it, they stole and exploited it.

    As I see it, we invested in this nation and deserve the right to cash that investment in. It's that simple. bsm
    quote:
    Originally posted by NativeAlien:

    It has been hard-wired in me by my Grandparents, Mom, Aunt and Uncles that I wasn't owed anything by anyone in this life and that if I wanted something I had to be the one to go out and get it. Period.


    Does the bank "owe" you the money you deposited in it? Do you feel guilty about withdrawing it at any time?

    Well it's the difference between someone owing you something and it being yours. Your forbears built this country, and in so doing, created an asset in this nation that your family owns. Like all other assets it passes down through the generations. You may not have been able to claim it yet, but it is yours, no doubt!
    tfro

    BTW - to be clear - nothing that I am saying in any way contradicts what your wise family taught you. I was taught the exact same thing - as probably all of us have. tfro
    MBM

    What you are talking about is unquantifiable as in most cases you will never know how much you were really discriminated against therefore whether you earned x as opposed to 3x does not matter unless you can clearly prove that a systemic block caused your loss of earnings.
    There have been cases where this has happened but they tend to be the exeption not the norm.

    Yes you could make up arbitrary figures of selfworth or you could focus on changing the rules and playing your own game. I will keep saying it over and over focus on what you have and can prove . You have a mountain of suspicion and a molehill of proof.
    Not to throw another group of the victimized but lets take the Chinese immigrants who built the railroads in both the US and Canada, they had to pay a head tax to work on the RR and many lost their lives working in very unsafe conditions. The RR opened up the west to industry and then mining and such. So my question should reparation be given to the families of the Chinese who worked to make the RR rich and powerful? and if so how much would be enough?
    Yes I know our people worked in the same conditions at the same time I just wanted to contrast...

    Perhaps I am a bit jaded by the things I see at work and around me. The attitude of "you owe me"

    Morally yes something should be done to recognize the evil profit of the slave trade and industry but that does not mean at the cost of undermining the numerous achievements that our brothers and sisters have made over the past 60 years.
    quote:
    Originally posted by Blacksanction:

    Morally yes something should be done to recognize the evil profit of the slave trade and industry but that does not mean at the cost of undermining the numerous achievements that our brothers and sisters have made over the past 60 years.


    How would reparations undermine anything?

    BTW - I don't imagine it would be too hard for a group of economists and historians to come up with a cumulative value that slavery added to the US economy. Either take that value and discount it at an appropriate rate to come up with a value in current dollars or turn that value into equity in the economy/government. The dollar value of X% today would be worth considerable more than X% historically.
    quote:
    Originally posted by Blacksanction:
    MBM

    What you are talking about is unquantifiable as in most cases you will never know how much you were really discriminated against therefore whether you earned x as opposed to 3x does not matter unless you can clearly prove that a systemic block caused your loss of earnings.
    There have been cases where this has happened but they tend to be the exeption not the norm.


    You base that objection on a personal reward. That is not the form of payment sought. Next!!

    quote:
    I will keep saying it over and over focus on what you have and can prove . You have a mountain of suspicion and a molehill of proof.


    You don't know what proof there is because when you're not knowledgeable on the subject. Next!!

    quote:
    Not to throw another group of the victimized but lets take the Chinese immigrants who built the railroads in both the US and Canada, they had to pay a head tax to work on the RR and many lost their lives working in very unsafe conditions. The RR opened up the west to industry and then mining and such. So my question should reparation be given to the families of the Chinese who worked to make the RR rich and powerful?


    What about them... and what about them... and what about those folks over there? Were immigrants forced into bondage? No, the very definition of immigrant is someone who migrated of their own free will. When they chained & shackled Africans, threw them in a ship's cargohold, transported them across the sea, lined them up like so much cattle, sold them, separated children from mothers, husbands from wives, and forced them to work (including suckle white babies), does that equate to immigration to you? Why would you put forth such a clearly unthoughtful objection? Next!!

    quote:
    Perhaps I am a bit jaded by the things I see at work and around me. The attitude of "you owe me"


    I detect insincerity. Pretentious claims of self-sufficiency seem to be said mostly for the approval of unalikes, not out of any real belief that a debt is not owed. Next!!


    quote:
    Morally yes something should be done to recognize the evil profit of the slave trade and industry but that does not mean at the cost of undermining the numerous achievements that our brothers and sisters have made over the past 60 years.


    You just shot down every last one of your own objections.

      In 1979, the Aleuts of the Pribilof Islands received $8.5 million in partial compensation for the unjust treatment to which they had been subjected under federal administration between 1870 and 1946. In 1988 the Aleuts who had been forcibly removed from their islands during World War II... That act also authorized up to $15 million to compensate the Aleuts for the loss of Attu Island, which had been made into a wildlife sanctuary.

    Hmmm... now would you object to those people getting their due, since clearly not one of us profited from their forcible removal or the loss of their land, and no one from 1870 was alive in 1979. Would you have had the same objections to their reparations?

    Randall Robinson moved to St. Kitts, look him up on your next visit home. He has much wisdom to impart; I wish he didn't have to leave the U.S.
    So I get get dimissed because I can see both sides of an argument and agree with parts??

    Hmmm.

    There are a lots of things that are morally wrong but at the end of the day I still do not want to pay for them.

    Put simply, life is unfair, so stop wallowing in the past and work on the future.You have control of the future and no one can change the past.

    I find it amusing that alot of posters love to try to quiet desention by attacking a person's perceived level of knowledge and education on a subject. How foolishly arrogant.
    quote:
    Originally posted by Blacksanction:
    So I get get dimissed because I can see both sides of an argument and agree with parts??


    Therein lies the rub. You don't see any parts of the other side of the argument, just the oppositional side. Otherwise, you'd address the proponent side that unmistakably and thoroughly rebutts the opposition.

    Besides, which, you're not American. Why would you even concern yourself with it? That's craziness.
    quote:
    Originally posted by Blacksanction:
    I find it amusing that alot of posters love to try to quiet desention by attacking a person's perceived level of knowledge and education on a subject. How foolishly arrogant.


    And, please, for the love of Mike... you know you're not thoroughly versed on the issue. (None of us are, but others find out before making false claims.) If you were, you wouldn't have made such tepid objections - objections that have been "dismissed" years ago. Just be honest, your objections stem from your lack of information and I believe some external hostility that you've internalized.

    Oh' and one last thing, not being an American, your dissension isn't an obstacle, so know that your approval was not being courted.
    I do, because believe it or not what you all do affects not only yourselves but those of us who do not live in the land of "free speech". You do not live in a vacuum.

    Call my aguments,tepid, stupid, whatever, call it what you want. They are still my opinions and a valid as what you have put forth.

    Oh keep those attacks on my esteem coming they reveal so much. Wink
    quote:
    Originally posted by Blacksanction:
    I do, because believe it or not what you all do affects not only yourselves but those of us who do not live in the land of "free speech". You do not live in a vacuum.

    Call my aguments,tepid, stupid, whatever, call it what you want. They are still my opinions and a valid as what you have put forth.

    Oh keep those attacks on my esteem coming they reveal so much. Wink


    No, your uninformed opinions and objections have no validity.

    The other bit of circumvolution isn't going to fly, either. A push for reparations in the U.S. has no negative influence on Black folks in Canada who immigrated from St. Kitts. Get real!

    There were no attacks on your esteem coming from me. But like others of your kind, I expect no less than the shallow understanding of issues and skewed perception of reality that you've already demonstrated.
    quote:
    Originally posted by Kweli4Real:
    quote:
    Originally posted by jazzdog:
    quote:
    Originally posted by blackbutterfly:
    Am I mistaken or did the Japan as well as the Jews receive reparations?


    Japan the country did not receive reparations, Japanese Americans who were interned during the war without due process were for the loss of homes and businesses.


    But then again, the country of Japan did get re-built after the war. Does that qualify as reparations?


    We also rebuild all of Germany and most of western Europe under the Marshal Plan, I doubt if anyone would call that reparations.
    Dr. Isome I presume?

    "your objections stem from your lack of information and I believe some external hostility that you've internalized."

    I hate myself...?

    "There were no attacks on your esteem coming from me. But like others of your kind, I expect no less than the shallow understanding of issues and skewed perception of reality that you've already demonstrated."

    Others of my kind?
    Skewed perception on reality?

    My perception my reality yes very telling Her Doctor
    quote:
    Originally posted by Blacksanction:
    Dr. Isome I presume?

    "your objections stem from your lack of information and I believe some external hostility that you've internalized."

    I hate myself...?

    "There were no attacks on your esteem coming from me. But like others of your kind, I expect no less than the shallow understanding of issues and skewed perception of reality that you've already demonstrated."

    Others of my kind?
    Skewed perception on reality?

    My perception my reality yes very telling Her Doctor


    It's very telling that you either lack reading comprehension, or your powers of perception are skewed... just as I said.

    Internalizing hostility isn't necessarily hating oneself. It does however, manifest itself as believing everything white folks say, as you do with your parroted objections to reparations, and discounting clear historical evidence put forth by Black folks.

    I know, I know it is probably easier for you to embrace a throwaway line like "self-hate" than to actually examine your objections in light of the evidence that runs throughout this thread.

    Good luck with that in Canada.

    Add Reply

    Post
    ×
    ×
    ×
    ×
    Link copied to your clipboard.
    ×