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Ocatchings, so your decision is based on what really? You have never lived in a turbulent country in whole your life like I did for awhile in Angola. You have never been torn by war, alienated by your homebase army who has done so many inhumanities on you and your people that you wish you could die. Come live in Angola for only a month, you will have so many problems there because of the government forces that after I bet you will understand me. I link the savagery of the Angolan armies with the US armies. Your military operate because of your government, they are united! Power of the government is able because of the military. You make me sad all of you. Especially the blacks who have experienced tragedies, how can you support the US army who is a notorious international terrorist? But I get your subtle point. Maybe I should shut, after all I'm not an African American. I go ahead mind my own business Confused.
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Originally posted by ThaWatcher:
http://www.virtualarmory.com/VAWS_Redesign/home/heroband/Images/band.jpg

Everyone should be wearing one of these. I don't care if you don't agree with the war in Iraq. What matters is that there are men and women over there fighting for us. Dying for us. Giving their lives to protect the lives of others.

There is one wristband for every soldier in duty right now. Honor a soldier by wearing one of these. This signifies that you support that soldier and care for that soldier and hope that that soldier comes home safely. They are doing an incredible job, and need every ounce of support they can get.

You can order a free wristband by clicking this link, it should bring you to a site that has options to order or register your wristband:

http://www.virtualarmory.com/VAWS_R.../home/heroband/


Man,

Have you stumbled on the wrong site to present your positive message! These people hate America and everything it stands for. The posters on this message board exist in a kind of socialist-inspired, virtual fantasy world of counterfactualism where the prevailing thought current goes something like this:

BLACK MAN = everything positive and beautiful - from music, art and science to world peace.

WHITE MAN = everything wicked and evil - from slavery, war and materialism to ring-around-the-collar

Better take you message somewhere else, bud...
Maybe I should shut, after all I'm not an African American. I go ahead mind my own business---Kisongo

Don't let that be a reason to not participate.

Egbertsouse isn't African American either.

The only criteria that matter have to do with behavior.

Opinion is the goal.

Welcome.


There is no substitute for knowing.

America is a unique place. All Americans are from some other place, in the sense of ancestry. We are all the descendants of immigrants. Except those of us of the original nations.

Some of them against our will.

Those were our ancestors.

It leaves us without a known African ancestry, but of African ancestry nonetheless.

PEACE

Jim Chester
quote:
Originally posted by KISONGO:
Maybe I should shut, after all I'm not an African American. I go ahead mind my own business Confused.


Fist off, you are a human being so your opinion is welcomed. Secondly, almost everyone I personally know in the American imperialist Army are continental Africans...So you have all the validation you need to talk right there(if you run into people who think because you aren't a U.S. citizen you can't)...Thirdly, you and Faheem have said everything that I would have wanted to say about why I don't support the troops...So all I have to do is agree with you 2.
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Originally posted by MBM:
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Originally posted by Oshun Auset:

Thirdly, you and Faheem have said everything that I would have wanted to say about why I don't support the troops.


OA - what would have the poor, mostly under-educated, largely minority people do who currently join the military?


Not joined. I understand why you have sympathy, but for me there can't be any sentimentality when it comes to an imperialist army. I have friends in the military...they know my stance. When they joined, they signed up to work for the enemy. I understand the shituation that has "us" joining at higher rates, but we have to draw the line somewhere.
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Originally posted by Oshun Auset:

I understand why you have sympathy, but for me there can't be any sentimentality when it comes to an imperialist army.


For the sake of argument, doesn't one who pays taxes support the government in just as literal a way? With all due respect, for someone who feels as you do, isn't the only real solution to find a country that you feel more aligned with to live? Doesn't any other solution compromise your beliefs and identity? If so, how do you balance those apparent contradictions?
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Originally posted by MBM:
quote:
Originally posted by Oshun Auset:

I understand why you have sympathy, but for me there can't be any sentimentality when it comes to an imperialist army.


For the sake of argument, doesn't one who pays taxes support the government in just as literal a way? With all due respect, for someone who feels as you do, isn't the only real solution to find a country that you feel more aligned with to live? Doesn't any other solution compromise your beliefs and identity? If so, how do you balance those apparent contradictions?


Paying taxes is mandatory not voluntary. So I don't see it as the same thing. But I personally do have "some guilt" about the the idea that the taxes I pay are supporting the shitstem...but I balance that contradiction by actively fighting the system that doesn't give me an actual option to pay the taxes or not(and not be imprisoned) ...while simultaneousely working towards eventually relocating(but not everyone has that option). No matter where one is located the governments aren't guaranteed to be doing everything you agree with. But voluntarilly picking up a gun and fighting and killing for the capitalist/imperialist elite is an entirely different level of compliance and support IMO.
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Originally posted by Vox:
First, to clarify something. AudioGuy, the ordinary German troops in WWII I don't think were subject to any war crimes prosecution, unless individual troops actually did commit atrocities outside of the actual combat theater. It was the SS troops, however, who did. The SS was more than just the regular German army; they were the paramilitary arm of the Nazi party...


It is my understanding that the Ger. army was the army - although they had dif div's of the army, they all were still in the army. Some fought on the front lines, some protected Hitler, some ran the con. camps, some made the volkswagons, some drove the trains, etc. If a jewish con. camp victim saw someone today that they recognized, it would not matter what their rank or position was in the army, there would still be a vehicle for them to be prosecuted.

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It would be like if the neo-cons ever started a professional paramilitary group outside of the regular military.


Those bitch-ass, sissy MF's don't have the heart.

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As for the "support of troops" issue... For me there's a different issue now. I support the troops, and I probably would anyway, but right now, whether we like it or not, it is imperative that they do their job and do it effectively. What Bush did...


Ultimately, this was a climate that was created by his father, not when he was prez, but when he was cia dir. I believe that this whole "take over Iraq" plan was hatched way before any of will ever really know.

Many people on this site have made some very good arguments - on both sides. I, however, am still torn. Members of the military are "just doing their jobs", but the job they are doing is beyond the scope of their employ - through no fault of their own. I guess that I could "support the troops" if, 1. the people who made the war decisions had a stake in what was going on, i.e. children/family in the military who were really in harm's way... 2. The "leaders" of this country were honest about their intentions/rationale for going to war... 3. the "leaders" were consistant in their policy making throughout the world - in Somalia they lost a few helicopters (black hawk down) and had a man dragged through the street (not insignificant events) and they pulled out. No concern for leaving the gov. destablized, no concern for the "people of the country" , no concern about "democracy", etc., yet we loose troops everyday in Iraq.

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My opposition to the war in Iraq is limited to the actual starting of it. Now that it began, nothing but disaster will result if we can't get some stability there...


Disater already has struck. In the form of 1000's of lives.

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And the Iraqis will never be able to do it themselves, one, because the insurgency is too determined, two, because Iraq is too fragmented, and three, because the USA has destroyed Iraq's infrastructure...

...we simply can't afford to let that place fester under the disaster that this jackass president of ours created. There is absolutely no possible sequence of events from this point forward that will undo the damage done...


If you believe the theory behind 9/11, then you realize that M. Atta, the supposed ringleader, started taking flying lessons in 1991, at approx 23yrs old - that would mean that the rest of the hijackers would have been children. What do you think is going through the minds of Iraqi children today?

There will be no end to conflict in Iraq.


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...unless America succeeds at fixing Iraq (if we're even trying to). That's why I support the troops wholeheartedly.


If Iraq had no oil, there would be no fixin'.
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Originally posted by KISONGO:
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Originally posted by jazzdog:
You don't like the policies that lead to the war then vote the bastards out, but to hold the troops responsible for foreign policy is a cheap shot.

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Yeah, I suppose we could all hold hands and sing "we are the world" but the truth is even if we didn't think we needed a military there are countries and people out there that make having one necessary. If people don't realize that then they surely have their head stuck somewhere.

You should know that the army, the police, and the judiciary alike reflect the government. They are structures designed to protect the ruling elite of the government not the masses of people like you think, it's especially not the case in capitalist/imperialist countries. That's why I support any army, especially anything that is imperialist in nature. Everyday the US forces are looting and murdering Iraqis civilians. Your army is occupying Iraq for illegal reason. Yet like you too many in the U.S are pro-troops which to me is to be pro-war. In fact, I want to see the world without ethnic militias, (Iraqi) jihadists, or America terror armed forces. And if that makes me a naïve person then I am only endorsing the plights of the majority of civilians of poor countries who have been suffering the most because of unlawful, vicious, and barbaric wars - the US and its allies have played major roles in creating those wars, so I don't support American troops period.


Having come from a country like Angola I can see where you perception of the army, police and judiciary cloud your opinion, but just because thats how you lived does not mean thats how life in this country is. For instance I'm positive that every person served by the police and the judiciary are not ruling members of the elite but ordinary everyday people who needed help. And yes while the military is an extension of the government and its decisions, the government is an instrument of the people and are still voted in by the people, don't like the government or its policies vote them out, so there is really a big difference in how you lived and how we live and our opinions of the institutions.

Additionally you display that flawed thinking in that this corruption of power is only displayed in capitalistic/imperialist countries whereas history as clearly shown the corruption of power happens in all political/economic systems whether it be capitalistic or socialist it doens't matter, all you are doing is just re-spewing that same old tired capitalism is evil statement.

You like many people totally condemn the suffering inflicted by the american military but for some reason fail to mention or condemn the suffering that militant Iraqis are inflicting on their own, does not those innocents also suffer or is it simply ok since they are killing their own. If war and the killing of innocents is wrong its wrong for everybody however for some reason the notion of it being wrong only seems to applied when the person is an American soldier.
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Originally posted by jazzdog:
Having come from a country like Angola I can see where you perception of the army, police and judiciary cloud your opinion, but just because thats how you lived does not mean thats how life in this country is.


Cheap shot Jazzdog...irrelavant and tacky IMO.

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For instance I'm positive that every person served by the police and the judiciary are not ruling members of the elite but ordinary everyday people who needed help.


So are you saying the military and police haven't been and/or aren't used as an oppressive force by the elite, or the interests of the elite in this country? Are you serious?

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And yes while the military is an extension of the government and its decisions, the government is an instrument of the people and are still voted in by the people, don't like the government or its policies vote them out, so there is really a big difference in how you lived and how we live and our opinions of the institutions.


Jazzdog you speak for yourself...The "we" you use means who exactly?...I hope you aren't speaking for all Africans born in Amerikkka. If you don't see how government is an extension of the corprate elite in Amerikkka...you need to take the blinders off. Cointelpro?...how soon we forget. For the people and by the people is a crock of schit! Keep believing that patriotic BS if you want to... You can't vote out the corporate control of government when all you have are corporate controlled political parties to pick from.

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Additionally you display that flawed thinking in that this corruption of power is only displayed in capitalistic/imperialist countries whereas history as clearly shown the corruption of power happens in all political/economic systems whether it be capitalistic or socialist it doens't matter, all you are doing is just re-spewing that same old tired capitalism is evil statement.


Corruption of power is everywhere but Capitlaism MAAXIMIZES it. Capitalism is evil. Unless you are looking through "Euro-centric elite rose coloured" glasses. How is it benefitiary if looked at the mass working class and poor African-centered(or even just non-European elite) perspective? The interests of the oppressed CAN NOT BE the same as the interests of the oppressor.

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You like many people totally condemn the suffering inflicted by the american military but for some reason fail to mention or condemn the suffering that militant Iraqis are inflicting on their own, does not those innocents also suffer or is it simply ok since they are killing their own. If war and the killing of innocents is wrong its wrong for everybody however for some reason the notion of it being wrong only seems to applied when the person is an American soldier.


Militant Iraqis are largely targetting different ethnic groups other than their own so all this (their own) crap is hogwash. That's about as logical as saying the White southerners who lynched Black folks were "targetting their own". They are different people. Iraq is not an ethnically homogenous society. Secondly, I sure don't think there would be militant Iraqi insurgents if there wasn't an imperialist occupation in the first place! Do you really take the U.S. media's reports on who is killing who at face value? You don't think even some reports may be being manipulated especially when it comes to those fighting against the U.S. imperialism?

Give me a break.
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Originally posted by jazzdog:
You like many people totally condemn the suffering inflicted by the american military but for some reason fail to mention or condemn the suffering that militant Iraqis are inflicting on their own, does not those innocents also suffer or is it simply ok since they are killing their own.

The US didn't care about the killings of Iraqi people when Saddam and his terror squads were not threatening the US interest. The US government was apparently content to not stop Iraqi jihadists kill their own people before. The world sees your governments as they all are/were total hypocrites.

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If war and the killing of innocents is wrong its wrong for everybody however for some reason the notion of it being wrong only seems to applied when the person is an American soldier.

Americans always favor punitive actions than diplomacy. You Americans resort to force first to conduct your foreign policy; don't be surprised if the world sees you with horror. For me an American soldier is responsable of as many crimes as a soldier in Angola, or an Iraqi soldier they are all threats to peace, especially if our governments have supremacist ideology. It's the same.
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Originally posted by KISONGO:
But I get your subtle point. Maybe I should shut, after all I'm not an African American. I go ahead mind my own business Confused.

First off I don't send subtle points and if I wanted you to shut the F@@k up I would say so. This is a discussion board and everyone has their own opinion, as they rightfully should.

If everybody sits around agreeing with each other nothing gets accomplished

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Ocatchings, so your decision is based on what really?

I've always felt it was every persons responsibility to do something for the betterment of their country and for me the military was something I always wanted to do. I could sit around on some street corner, with a bunch of bastard babies running around blaming the white man for my decisions but that's not my style.
Personally speaking I don't think we should help anybody out and we should take care of our own here first. As the saying goes teach another nation to read and write and they first thing they learn is "Yankee go home". Like the ingrates in Indonesia, we want aid but we'll tell you how we want it;I would have pulled everybody out, period.

As far as coming to Angola, we were alot closer than most people know, but back on track......What savagery are you referring to? Yes things happen but I'm sorry its killed or be killed. I never see any of you pacifist condemming anyone else for the acts they commit, but the US. Do you have this same sense of condemination while these people are getting heads cut of and having it broadcast? Or are you one of these that turns a blind eye and puts it in the category "they deserved it"? (after all they are just Americans) Roll Eyes
True our government has many low lifes deep inside but to blame all the ills on the military is totally asinine.

catch
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Originally posted by Oshun Auset:
quote:
Originally posted by jazzdog:
Having come from a country like Angola I can see where you perception of the army, police and judiciary cloud your opinion, but just because thats how you lived does not mean thats how life in this country is.


Cheap shot Jazzdog...irrelavant and tacky IMO.

Whats cheap about it he clearly has indicated that his opinion is based on his life experiences living in Angola. I simply pointed out that his experiences are not atypical of life in this country. Not cheap just the truth.

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For instance I'm positive that every person served by the police and the judiciary are not ruling members of the elite but ordinary everyday people who needed help.


So are you saying the military and police haven't been and/or aren't used as an oppressive force by the elite, or the interests of the elite in this country? Are you serious?

Not at all, what I'm saying is that the military and the police serve more then just the interest of the elite in this country as anybody who has called for help and received can attest to.

quote:
Additionally you display that flawed thinking in that this corruption of power is only displayed in capitalistic/imperialist countries whereas history as clearly shown the corruption of power happens in all political/economic systems whether it be capitalistic or socialist it doens't matter, all you are doing is just re-spewing that same old tired capitalism is evil statement.


Corruption of power is everywhere but Capitlaism MAAXIMIZES it. Capitalism is evil. Unless you are looking through "Euro-centric elite rose coloured" glasses. How is it benefitiary if looked at the mass working class and poor African-centered(or even just non-European elite) perspective? The interests of the oppressed CAN NOT BE the same as the interests of the oppressor.

But he didn't say that and neither do most people. I find it always amazing that the people who complain the most about capitalism are the ones who most fail to take advantage of it. Capitalism is not a system strictly limited by birth right or even color of skin, if that was the case then no people of color anywhere in the world would be taking advantage of it. So there is a mass working class, ok so what, everybody successful in this world with the exception of those born with a silver spoon in their mouth has spend some time in the mass working class and even working poor.

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You like many people totally condemn the suffering inflicted by the american military but for some reason fail to mention or condemn the suffering that militant Iraqis are inflicting on their own, does not those innocents also suffer or is it simply ok since they are killing their own. If war and the killing of innocents is wrong its wrong for everybody however for some reason the notion of it being wrong only seems to applied when the person is an American soldier.


Militant Iraqis are largely targetting different ethnic groups other than their own so all this (their own) crap is hogwash. That's about as logical as saying the White southerners who lynched Black folks were "targetting their own". They are different people. Iraq is not an ethnically homogenous society. Secondly, I sure don't think there would be militant Iraqi insurgents if there wasn't an imperialist occupation in the first place! Do you really take the U.S. media's reports on who is killing who at face value? You don't think even _some_ reports may be being manipulated especially when it comes to those fighting against the U.S. imperialism?

Give me a break.


You really need to take a break yourself, so its ok for them to kill each other because they are actually different ethnics groups but its bad when we do it. If the whole nortion is that innocents being killed is bad then shouldn't it be bad for everybody. I seriously doubt that the person being killed appreciates his or her fate better knowing that it is a fellow Iraqi versus an American putting a bullet in their head. And to suddenly doubt the medias reporting on the deaths happening among non-combatants when even foreign media sources had reported the facts seems borne more out of some tired old idea that the entire US media foundation reports stories on the whim of the government. If that was the case we wouldn't have the stories that we have coming out of Iraqi.
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Originally posted by KISONGO:
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Originally posted by jazzdog:
You like many people totally condemn the suffering inflicted by the american military but for some reason fail to mention or condemn the suffering that militant Iraqis are inflicting on their own, does not those innocents also suffer or is it simply ok since they are killing their own.

The US didn't care about the killings of Iraqi people when Saddam and his terror squads were not threatening the US interest. The US government was apparently content to not stop Iraqi jihadists kill their own people before. The world sees your governments as they all are/were total hypocrites.

WELL GEE there's a revelation, got news for you guy, the US didn't care about the killings in Rwanda (Clinton era) or the on-going suffering in the Sudan. That is no big news, I realize that Americas interest in suffering is based on what we get out of getting involved in the situation. My complaint is the notion that you and others put forth that somehow the only people being killed in Iraqi are being killed by american soldiers and their allies which is clearly not true. If you are going to stand on the mountaintop and throw the truth down, throw the whole truth not just the parts that fit in with your own thinking.

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If war and the killing of innocents is wrong its wrong for everybody however for some reason the notion of it being wrong only seems to applied when the person is an American soldier.

Americans always favor punitive actions than diplomacy. You Americans resort to force first to conduct your foreign policy; don't be surprised if the world sees you with horror. For me an American soldier is responsable of as many crimes as a soldier in Angola, or an Iraqi soldier they are all threats to peace, especially if our governments have supremacist ideology. It's the same.


Thats a pretty broad statement to make saying that americans always favor punitive action. Obiviously you have not been paiding attention to our liberal media who work for the evil government when they deliberately show average americans on TV saying that the war is wrong and we should be talking instead of fighting. Hell, they probably aren't even real Americans, probably are from Canada pretending to be concerned americans.
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Originally posted by jazzdog:
I find it always amazing that the people who complain the most about capitalism are the ones who most fail to take advantage of it. Capitalism is not a system strictly limited by birth right or even color of skin, if that was the case then no people of color anywhere in the world would be taking advantage of it. So there is a mass working class, ok so what, everybody successful in this world with the exception of those born with a silver spoon in their mouth has spend some time in the mass working class and even working poor.


Capitalim is moving more towards people being "equal opportunity oppressors"...Oh yeah! Woopy! I can oppress someone else just like the white man!

I also find it presumptuous and arrogant for you to "ass-ume" people sho speak against capitalism are the one's taking the least advantage of it. What is your definition of "success" anyway? What were you trying to imply about us socialist Jazzdog? Do you know how "sucessful" we are or not? And do we even share the same deiinition of success?

"I want people to judge me not by my riches, not by my awards, but by how I worked for humanity" -MLK
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Originally posted by KISONGO:
Americans always favor punitive actions than diplomacy. You Americans resort to force first to conduct your foreign policy; don't be surprised if the world sees you with horror. For me an American soldier is responsable of as many crimes as a soldier in Angola, or an Iraqi soldier they are all threats to peace, especially if our governments have supremacist ideology. It's the same.


Is that a fact, dude? Tell me, how do those American marines, sailors and airmen delivering aid supplies by helicopter to the tsunami victims in Indonesia and Sri Lanka fit into your definition of "punitive actions" you claim Americans favor, or Americans always using force as a first resort?

Then again, I guess someone like you, being from a country in "Mama Afrika," wouldn't know the first thing about rendering foreign aid.
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quote:
Originally posted by Oshun Auset:
quote:
Originally posted by jazzdog:
I find it always amazing that the people who complain the most about capitalism are the ones who most fail to take advantage of it. Capitalism is not a system strictly limited by birth right or even color of skin, if that was the case then no people of color anywhere in the world would be taking advantage of it. So there is a mass working class, ok so what, everybody successful in this world with the exception of those born with a silver spoon in their mouth has spend some time in the mass working class and even working poor.


Capitalim is moving more towards people being "equal opportunity oppressors"...Oh yeah! Woopy! I can oppress someone else just like the white man!

I also find it presumptuous and arrogant for you to "ass-ume" people sho speak against capitalism are the one's taking the least advantage of it. What is your definition of "success" anyway? What were you trying to imply about us socialist Jazzdog? Do you know how "sucessful" we are or not? And do we even share the same deiinition of success?

"I want people to judge me not by my riches, not by my awards, but by how I worked for humanity" -MLK


We probably do not share the same definition of success as we surely do not share the same definition of capitalism. You look at capitalism as being a system that oppresses one group of people for the other, while I look at capitalism as an opportunity for one to move up from one level of economic condition to another. The whole concept of the system is based on private or corporate ownership of goods and investments and business decisions based on individual needs and wants and not the states. And since the whole notion is based on a free market system where people can invest money, material or labor into the market, just how is it oppressing people. Are we to then assume that black america in its drive to overcome economic suppression is then taking on the role of the oppressor by embracing capitalism as a method of rising up. After all the idea of more individual black owned businesses not state owned is at the forefront of any economic revival that might happen in the black community.

Somehow I get the feeling that you equate great success as having to come at the expense of someone else versus the notion that individual hard work and effort can also equally produce success. My statement about those speaking out taking the least advantage of the system is just an observation that when one wholly embraces the idea of capitalism one tends to find out that the system works as equally for them as it does for others, it may not work overnight but it works. If your problem is that there are always a group of people on the bottom working to uplift people above them thats the cycle. If anything the notion that thought individual effort one can rise themselves above their condition is a powerful motivator. Somehow I imagine in a socialist system where everybody is the same with of course the obivious exception of the power holders that they is a lack of motivation in that all efforts go to the improvement of the state and not the individual.

My definition of success is the obtainment of goals that I have set for myself and my family, reaching a desired state of fulfillment that allows me to do what I want when I want.
Jazzdog, Ocatchings, EgbertSouse,

First of all I am not a "pal" but a girl. Secondly your arguments show me anything new or convincing to me, I still don't understand why a black person would support the military. I guess when you see that many black Americans who would do what they can get no matter to get dollars, I sort of understand. But I still couldn't allow myself to be pimped for the sake of dollars and free college. It's funny that it's so easy to go die for white hegemony, but what blacks can accomplish is all of the divisiveness among us. Your troops are trained heroes/puppets, when they confidently lead genocide and civil wars in Africa that money is worth it? Another question if you are insensible to the plight of continental Africans - when the US decides to hunt down terrorists in Harlem will you supports them to do that? The world laugh at the blacks in the US military and their black supporters knowing how blacks are pimped and b**ch slapped at home. In this world the militaries are not created to combat enemies but for theft, racism, and murder!
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Originally posted by KISONGO:
Ocatchings, so your decision is based on what really? You have never lived in a turbulent country in whole your life like I did for awhile in Angola. You have never been torn by war, alienated by your homebase army who has done so many inhumanities on you and your people that you wish you could die. Come live in Angola for only a month, you will have so many problems there because of the government forces that after I bet you will understand me. I link the savagery of the Angolan armies with the US armies. Your military operate because of your government, they are united! Power of the government is able because of the military. You make me sad all of you. Especially the blacks who have experienced tragedies, how can you support the US army who is a notorious international terrorist? But I get your subtle point. Maybe I should shut, after all I'm not an African American. I go ahead mind my own business Confused.


Kisongo ... let me try and explain a couple of the differences Jazzdog is talking about.

First, please try to consider that in Angola and all around Africa and other countries, the government, it's army and police force worked to commit those attrocities against YOU ... their own citizens! While our government and military may go and commit and/or fund or otherwise sponsor crimes against humanity in other countries, we do not experience that here. Army soldiers do not come through our towns and cities and kick in doors to rape, torture or arrest people. Therefore, your perception and experierce of government-sponsored militaries would have to be different than ours. Not that we don't have our differences with the government, but that isn't one of them!

Second, the link between the government and the military is not one in which both think alike. Our military are paid employees and average Joes just like anybody else. They are not enlisted just to make favor with the ruling governmental class and it's not a join-the-army-or-die situation. Our soldiers take an oath to protect the people of the nation ... and not only the government itself.

War is hell, and bad things are going to happen when there is one. Innocent people are going to die for no good reason. And that's on both sides of the conflict. But it is the war itself that is the culprit. And those who order it are the evildoers. But as far as the average soldier goes ... taking an oath to protect the citizens of their nation does not make someone a bad person. Nor does it mean they are going to have to do bad things. Wars and conflicts make a person do bad things. Plus, no soldier gets to decide to one day just go hop a plane and start bombing another country. In fact, I would think one would choose not to, if given the choice, knowing how horrible a thing it is.

And you certainly don't have to shut up or mind your own business or not be able to talk here just because you aren't African American! Smile But, I think it is because you aren't African American - and most of us are not African - that we need to understand each other's differences of opinion in the context of totally different experiences! And I think that would go a long way towards better communication between us all. Smile
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quote:
Originally posted by KISONGO:
Jazzdog, Ocatchings, EgbertSouse,

First of all I am not a "pal" but a girl..........
Your troops are trained heroes/puppets, when they confidently lead genocide and civil wars in Africa that money is worth it?............

Another question if you are insensible to the plight of continental Africans - when the US decides to hunt down terrorists in Harlem will you supports them to do that?


OK "girly", please give me some facts where the military has lead any military missions on Africa without knowledge of the government? Pretty please!!!!!!! I'm not sure whats wrong with your search engine but our government does not operate in that fashion.

Getting money from the military....... rotflmao....Next topic please!!!!

AS far as hunting down terrorist in Harlem (and other cities) the sooner the better. And I'll back them removing the thugs, hoodlums and drug lords as well.

I hate to type and run but I'm due for another round of rapeing, pilligaging and plundering for d white mon

brocool
catch
EbonyRose,

Your post is fair thanks for that. You are right to say that because of my experience with the military of my country I am seeing the American view as irrational, or I said that myself? Anyway, today I'm not able to bless any military in this planet; I am involved in many groups in my country that reach out to my people victims of so many human rights abuses by the armed forces. So you see sister I'm an active participant of what I urge. Ever since I came to live in Canada I've made it a priority to ever criticize the armed forces that kill mostly black peoples (in the US army blacks and latinos are in front lines on the battlefield), On top of that they don't even have their dignity. I agree with the fact that in the US military soldiers reap many benefits, they can be proficient in many areas without a degree, but we all know military career aren't that great, and when you tear up a limb you have to get out..

I am only speaking form an African point of view that has seen serious injustice by US Special Forces or mercenaries as well as Angolan forces. If you have never been in that situation you really have no idea what I am talking about, that's why I said maybe I should've ignored this topic and mind my own business. Every black peoples experience is different. Black Americans would risk their lives for the US, but me there is no way I can support being, or anyone being in the military that exists for commercial interests of the government, they don't exist to keep the people safe. I had this 'direct' experience it's not a happy story.
quote:
Originally posted by ocatchings:
OK "girly", please give me some facts where the military has lead any military missions on Africa without knowledge of the government? Pretty please!!!!!!! I'm not sure whats wrong with your search engine but our government does not operate in that fashion.

What do you think the military 'aid' programs of the US, largely planned and administrated by the Pentagon and the CIA are? US Special Operations or mercenaries back UNITA guerillas in Angola. They participated in extermination of Tutsis then Hutus in both Rwanda and Eastern Congo. Your military have questionable 'aid' in military and paramilitary forces all over Africa. If you don't believe me inquire with the US Defense Office in Rwanda, and US embassies in Angola, and Congo. Critical self-inspection is mostly needed for you. You Americans have no clue of your nation role in the global world, or you are content to remain ignorant.

quote:
I hate to type and run but I'm due for another round of rapeing, pilligaging and plundering for d white mon

Yeah go ahead that's what you do best foolish wars of 'conquest' for our enemy.
quote:
Originally posted by KISONGO:
Jazzdog, Ocatchings, EgbertSouse,

First of all I am not a "pal" but a girl. Secondly your arguments show me anything new or convincing to me, I still don't understand why a black person would support the military. I guess when you see that many black Americans who would do what they can get no matter to get dollars, I sort of understand. But I still couldn't allow myself to be pimped for the sake of dollars and free college. It's funny that it's so easy to go die for white hegemony, but what blacks can accomplish is all of the divisiveness among us. Your troops are trained heroes/puppets, when they confidently lead genocide and civil wars in Africa that money is worth it? Another question if you are insensible to the plight of continental Africans - when the US decides to hunt down terrorists in Harlem will you supports them to do that? The world laugh at the blacks in the US military and their black supporters knowing how blacks are pimped and b**ch slapped at home. In this world the militaries are not created to combat enemies but for theft, racism, and murder!


Thats ok if you don't understand the reasoning a black person would join the military, I don't understand and I don't mean you in particular how a black person can rage about living in this country with all the horrors but continue to stay and live in the shit, if it is son freaking bad then leave. If someone threw you in a pit of shit would all you do is complain while sitting in it, I kinda of doubt it, you would probably get your butt out of it.

Moving on to genocide and civil war in Africa the last time I checked the only people waging genocide and civil war were africans killing other africans, do we have a secret third war going on in africa that nobody knows anything about where american troops are actively engaged in combat. If the US decides to hunt down terrorist in Harlem absolutely I will support that issue, the key word and its one that you used is "terrorist" not innocent civilian but "terrorist" and if they are the kind of terrorist like in Iraqi that are actually killing their own, damn right they need to be hunted down.

Its amazing that military in your words are created for theft, racism and murder but the stone cold facts are that we did not go into Iraqi even with the weak excuse of WMD's until after 9/11 when we were attacked. It seems that if we were so intent on inflicting murder and theft that for starters we would have invaded Cuba long ago especially considering its closeness to our own country, we would have invaded Libya with its massive oil fields, Syria with its fondness for supporting terrorists but we haven't. Your whole argument and so called analysis is based on our war in Iraqi while ignoring the obivious opportunities that if we were as you say we are that we have failed to capitalize on.

Finally, considering how our fellow brothers and sister in africa pimp and bitch slap each other, I really wouldn't talk about blacks in america. Somehow being pimped by one of your own is 10 times worse then being pimped by your oppressor.
quote:
Originally posted by KISONGO:
quote:
Originally posted by ocatchings:
OK "girly", please give me some facts where the military has lead any military missions on Africa without knowledge of the government? Pretty please!!!!!!! I'm not sure whats wrong with your search engine but our government does not operate in that fashion.

What do you think the military 'aid' programs of the US, largely planned and administrated by the Pentagon and the CIA are? US Special Operations or mercenaries back UNITA guerillas in Angola. They participated in extermination of Tutsis then Hutus in both Rwanda and Eastern Congo. Your military have questionable 'aid' in military and paramilitary forces all over Africa. If you don't believe me inquire with the US Defense Office in Rwanda, and US embassies in Angola, and Congo. Critical self-inspection is mostly needed for you. You Americans have no clue of your nation role in the global world, or you are content to remain ignorant.

quote:
I hate to type and run but I'm due for another round of rapeing, pilligaging and plundering for d white mon

Yeah go ahead that's what you do best foolish wars of 'conquest' for our enemy.


Thats really an interesting observation that US Special Forces were involved in the extermination of first the Tutsis and then the Hutus when the facts presented by both US and other parties show just the opposite. And just what did America get out of killing members of both tribes, because if there is one constant about US Foreign policy and the use of our troops is that we always look to get something out of the deal. What are getting out of involving ourselves in Rwanda and the Eastern Congo; oil, natural resources an additional foot hold for US forces, what are we getting for our involvement. I find it amazing that you would make such claims when history has shown that President Clinton actually failed to realize just how bad the civil war was in Rwanda and thus did nothing to help. Other countries did send troops to help and I have yet to read a report or statement that indicated that US Special Forces were seem being involved in the genocide.
Jazzdog,

US military forces are stationed and are operating RIGHT NOW in Angola, Congo, Uganda, and Rwanda amid throngs of vicious guerrillas, troops, and rebels! Inquire with the US military intelligence officers if you don't believe me. American troops have a long history of supporting civil wars in Africa in order to gain our countries natural resources!! It's how black Americans in the military assist their government in oppressing African civilians on the continent through covert operations, sabotage, subversion and assisting guerillas movements. Don't act like you don't know this. You can condemn African nations all you want, but to forget the racism and despotism of the US in Africa is a case of brainwashing. In doing so, you believe the lies of The Bush administration and the Europeans who have this hypocrite and self-righteousness attitude about them, which is their foreign policy motivations. Bill Clinton played the same hypocrite attitude in Rwanda in 1994 when the whole world knows the Rwandans troubles was significantly manipulated by the allies, like the Great lakes conflicts, those in Sudan, Liberia, and elsewhere in Africa. This knowledge is out there just check it.

It makes sense you would support your military wreaking havoc in black neighborhoods in America. It seems you see no problem killing your own people too for white men interest. Why? Because blacks hate themselves the world over. I just finished reading about 2 young black American men who were murdered by young black American men who bragged about making them suck the gun and blowing their brains out. This was in Chicago. I've heard of many violent encounters between black Americans and other black Americans in the USA. The self-hatred is way too deep. This doesn't make you angry or sad as hell? Unfortunately for me it does.

For your information I don't live in the US I can't stand anything about America!! But what type of childish rhetoric is it to expect black Americans who don't like there to leave instead of remaining there in disagreement, debating the issues to deal with them in substance? No, to me those blacks are neither unpatriotic nor imbeciles. What is the US forces combating? Black folk enemy or the white men enemy? One thing I can see is that those blacks you criticize are not supporting the blacks who are fighting along side white and spilling blood for white. What good is a war if blacks don't even fight their real enemy? There is no good reason for me to support any army directly or indirectly lead by whites, they are supremacist and imperial machines WAKE UP!!!!
quote:
Originally posted by jazzdog:
We probably do not share the same definition of success as we surely do not share the same definition of capitalism. You look at capitalism as being a system that oppresses one group of people for the other, while I look at capitalism as an opportunity for one to move up from one level of economic condition to another.


Capitalism is a system that functions of the oppression and exploitation OF THE MAJORITY of humanity. A few people can move up out of the oppressed group into being an oppressor(largely only within the G-8 countries...which I don't expect you to think outside of, evidence being your later posts about your lack of knowledge of CIA covert opperations in Africa). I guess as long as you are in the big house. All those in the field, remain nameless faceless masses that don't matter.

quote:
The whole concept of the system is based on private or corporate ownership of goods and investments and business decisions based on individual needs and wants and not the states.


What world are your living in? Individual needs and wants...What or whos "individuals wants"? It sure isn't the needs and wants of the suffering masses! REnt the movies "The Corporation" and "Life and Debt"...then get back to me. You must have no idea how this system is making the masses suffer. Probably largely because those masses are now outside of the U.S. boarders. How soon the former slaves forget.

quote:
And since the whole notion is based on a free market system where people can invest money, material or labor into the market, just how is it oppressing people.


Are you serious? You can't be this ignorant of global affairs! Free trade my ass! You are really buying the capitalist jibberish the elite are feeding you aren't you? Check out how "free trade zones" work and get back to me. I don't have time to teach the basics.

quote:
Are we to then assume that black america in its drive to overcome economic suppression is then taking on the role of the oppressor by embracing capitalism as a method of rising up. After all the idea of more individual black owned businesses not state owned is at the forefront of any economic revival that might happen in the black community.


How many multi-national corporate gods do you know that are Black? I can give you a hint...NONE...People always confuse private buisiness ownership, basic economics and trade with capitalist imperialism...that's rediculous! There is nothing wrong with haveing buisinesses. We are talking about international mega corps that run the U.S. foreign(and sometimes domestic) policy and have the government(ours and other hired militia men) oppressing people, and promoting internal conflicts the world over so they can exploit the natural resources of their respective countries.

quote:
Somehow I get the feeling that you equate great success as having to come at the expense of someone else versus the notion that individual hard work and effort can also equally produce success.


That depends on your definition of "great success".

quote:
My statement about those speaking out taking the least advantage of the system is just an observation that when one wholly embraces the idea of capitalism one tends to find out that the system works as equally for them as it does for others, it may not work overnight but it works.


Really now? I think you are talking about being the petit-bourgeoisie. I'm not criticizing that group(except for their attitude, like yours, that ignors the suffering of the majority) Tell the cocoa farmers in West Africa working their asses off. The tea and coffee farmers in East Africa, the countless people globally that live on, and are the rightful owners of oil rich or precious metal or stone rich land that get exterminated, robbed, or displaced by AMERIKKAN corporations that their "hard work" will pay off. You aren't looking at the bigger picture, or you just are completely ignorant about it. The Chiquita Bannana labourers who were forced to work at gun point in Costa Rica by that Amerikkkan Corp. would have to disagree with you. Wake up to what this capitlaist mulktinationals are doing the world over.


quote:
If your problem is that there are always a group of people on the bottom working to uplift people above them thats the cycle.


I thought your whole argument is that the "people" (aka the masses) on the bottom were working to uplift themselves? WHat happened to that? Are you now admitting their labour is being exploited by an elite? And are you ok with that?

quote:
If anything the notion that thought individual effort one can rise themselves above their condition is a powerful motivator. Somehow I imagine in a socialist system where everybody is the same with of course the obivious exception of the power holders that they is a lack of motivation in that all efforts go to the improvement of the state and not the individual.


Try 'everyone having THE BASICS!' I'm for individual AND collective effort...and the people putting in that effort benefitting from it. Not an elite class benefitting off of other peoples land, natural resources and exploited labour.

quote:
My definition of success is the obtainment of goals that I have set for myself and my family, reaching a desired state of fulfillment that allows me to do what I want when I want.


Success IMO can only be measures by the forward movement and progress of the masses. If most of my people, and/or the majority of humanity is suffering(at the hands of the elite BTW), even if I'm rich and can buy and sell people because of the oppression and exploitation of the masses(aka do whatever I want)...That's not progress.

BTW members of the ANC(African National Congress) in Apartheid South Africa, the Black Panther Party in the U.S., The Mau Mau in Brittish colonial Kenya, ect. were all refferred to as "terrorists" at one point. One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter.
quote:
I hate to type and run but I'm due for another round of rapeing, pilligaging and plundering for d white mon
Yeah go ahead that's what you do best foolish wars of 'conquest' for our enemy.


What enemies are you speaking of? The ones that "claim" black unity and stab me in the back? Or are those the ones you consider true heros and patriots?

quote:
It makes sense you would support your military wreaking havoc in black neighborhoods in America. It seems you see no problem killing your own people too for white men interest. Why? Because blacks hate themselves the world over. I just finished reading about 2 young black American men who were murdered by young black American men who bragged about making them suck the gun and blowing their brains out. This was in Chicago. I've heard of many violent encounters between black Americans and other black Americans in the USA. The self-hatred is way too deep. This doesn't make you angry or sad as hell? Unfortunately for me it does.



I thought the question was terrorist? No one said anything about our own, we'll leave that speciality to those across the waters in Africa, South America, Europe etc.
For the record self hatred and any crime bothers me especially black on black crime here. I'm all for sending all these bums, hoodlums and thugs regardless of color on a one way trip to saturn. But as Ebony mentioned before our military does not patrol the streets here, so what does that have to do with getting rid of terrorist?

Other than your BS claims that the US "operatives" participated in the massacre of millions of Africans, can you provide some facts? B/C all I see is an extension of black on black crime and hatred when any reports come in. Africans killing Africans is the fault of the US military, makes sense to me!

quote:
For your information I don't live in the US I can't stand anything about America!!

I'm sure you'll have to take a number to join a growing list, but please don't expect me to lose any sleep or really give 10 cents about what you feel about America. brosmile

catch
quote:
Originally posted by EbonyRose:
Kisongo ... let me try and explain a couple of the differences Jazzdog is talking about.

First, please try to consider that in Angola and all around Africa and other countries, the government, it's army and police force worked to commit those attrocities against YOU ... their own citizens! While our government and military may go and commit and/or fund or otherwise sponsor crimes against humanity in _other_ countries, we do not experience that here. Army soldiers do not come through our towns and cities and kick in doors to rape, torture or arrest people. Therefore, your perception and experierce of government-sponsored militaries would have to be different than ours. Not that we don't have our differences with the government, but that isn't one of them!


EbonyRose... you cannot be serious! The various police agencies are the domestic version of the military and they do kick in doors and kill people - Amadou Diallo ring a bell? Cointelpro sound familiar? LAPD rampart division?? Black men get stopped everyday for DWB (driving while Black) and some of those brothers get killed... by the police! What about the Haitian brother (name escapes me) in NYC who was taken into a bathroom and had a broom handle shoved up his butt, while at the police station - supposedly while under "arrest" (all charges were dropped). Are you familiar with the Assatta Shakur story??

I could go on, the point is that the police commit govt. sanctioned atrocities everyday on it's own citizens and have been for quite some time, the fact that they don't wear fatigues does not mean that they do not operate in a military fashion.
AG ...

I knew somebody was going to bring that up ... was just waiting for "who" it was gonna be! Big Grin

Of course I realize what you are saying, but that is why I specifically only mentioned gov't and the military in that specific instance.

Although the ongoing racially-motivated discrimination attacks that have always plagued us (whether by police, or KKK or slaveowners on back) still continue to do so today through the police and their tactics against us, it is still a different matter than having the government send it's military troops through a city, burning every building, shooting every man, raping most if not all the women and girls and kidnapping the boys to become military soldiers. And that is what happens in (way too many) countries in Africa today.

I intentionally did not say that we are not persecuted here in America - of course I know we are, and in everyway you just mentioned and then some!! Eek Bbut, I was just not speaking of that in this comment, and the persecution we face may be of the same mentality, but is not conducted in the same way as it is in Angola. Plus, over there, it is not just the gov't, and the military, but also any police, or any other group or tribe the gov't may decide to give arms to.

It's a different ballgame. And in Kisongo's case, I can understand her being anti-military in any form!! I am glad to be able to say that although I can't trust any police force in any city in the country (and although they are indeed government-sanctioned, it's more state gov't than federal), I can trust my federally-sponsored troops not to do me like that ... at least for now, anyway!
quote:
Originally posted by KISONGO:
Jazzdog,

US military forces are stationed and are operating RIGHT NOW in Angola, Congo, Uganda, and Rwanda amid throngs of vicious guerrillas, troops, and rebels! Inquire with the US military intelligence officers if you don't believe me. American troops have a long history of supporting civil wars in Africa in order to gain our countries natural resources!! It's how black Americans in the military assist their government in oppressing African civilians on the continent through covert operations, sabotage, subversion and assisting guerillas movements. Don't act like you don't know this. You can condemn African nations all you want, but to forget the racism and despotism of the US in Africa is a case of brainwashing. In doing so, you believe the lies of The Bush administration and the Europeans who have this hypocrite and self-righteousness attitude about them, which is their foreign policy motivations. Bill Clinton played the same hypocrite attitude in Rwanda in 1994 when the whole world knows the Rwandans troubles was significantly manipulated by the allies, like the Great lakes conflicts, those in Sudan, Liberia, and elsewhere in Africa. This knowledge is out there just check it.

I have no doubt that we have military personnel in africa as I myself have seem briefings showing the disposition of US forces around the world, I'm just waiting for proof of your statement that they had been involved in the mass killings in Rwanda. Once again you confuse american troops with government policy makers, american troops do not have a long history of supporting civil war in africa, american foreign policy as decided by corrupt elected officials might but I guarantee that most military officers could give a shit about civil war in africa.

It makes sense you would support your military wreaking havoc in black neighborhoods in America. It seems you see no problem killing your own people too for white men interest. Why? Because blacks hate themselves the world over. I just finished reading about 2 young black American men who were murdered by young black American men who bragged about making them suck the gun and blowing their brains out. This was in Chicago. I've heard of many violent encounters between black Americans and other black Americans in the USA. The self-hatred is way too deep. This doesn't make you angry or sad as hell? Unfortunately for me it does.

You are so incredible sad, by your own use of the word "terrorist" you described the character of the individual who would be wrecking havoc in black neighborhoods and because he or she is black they get a pass, not only are you sad but dangerous. This is not a matter of self hatred, this is a matter of seeking justice aganist people who are full of self-hate and intent on destroying their own. Killing terroist in my neighborhood is not in the interest of the white man its in my best interest, if they are so full of self hate that they would kill their own, my own self interest says take them out. As for black on crime reading about it is never the same as seeing it and living it, yes the amount of black on black crime bothers me and makes me angry but if black terrorist are wreaking havoc in black neighborhoods i.e. as in Iraqi yes I fully expect the military, the police, fire department, US Postal service and any other local, state and federal agency to do something about it.

For your information I don't live in the US I can't stand anything about America!! But what type of childish rhetoric is it to expect black Americans who don't like there to leave instead of remaining there in disagreement, debating the issues to deal with them in substance? No, to me those blacks are neither unpatriotic nor imbeciles. What is the US forces combating? Black folk enemy or the white men enemy? One thing I can see is that those blacks you criticize are not supporting the blacks who are fighting along side white and spilling blood for white. What good is a war if blacks don't even fight their real enemy? There is no good reason for me to support any army directly or indirectly lead by whites, they are supremacist and imperial machines WAKE UP!!!!


I'm not criticizing blacks who don't support the war, I don't support the war but as an ex military officer some of your notions about the military and it deciding foreign policy are just plan silly. To somehow blame the troops for policies decided upon by men not even in uniform and as with this administration men who never wore the uniform I have a problem with.
quote:
Originally posted by EbonyRose:
it is still a different matter than having the government send it's military troops through a city, burning every building, shooting every man, raping most if not all the women and girls and kidnapping the boys to become military soldiers. And that is what happens in (way too many) countries in Africa _today_.

I intentionally did not say that we are not persecuted here in America - of course I know we are, and in everyway you just mentioned and then some!! Eek Bbut, I was just not speaking of that in this comment, and the persecution we face may be of the same mentality, but is not conducted in the same way as it is in Angola. Plus, over there, it is not just the gov't, and the military, but also any police, or any other group or tribe the gov't may decide to give arms to.

I can trust my federally-sponsored troops not to do me like that ... at least for now, anyway!


Black Wallstreet/Tulsa Oklahoma anyone?...There were AIR STRIKES...How soon we forget...


Ocatching,

Check the links to Imperialist wars launched by the U.S. I posted it on this thread. Lamumba, Kwame Kkrumah, and countless other coups of democrastically elected leaders, particularly in Africa, are all courtesy of the CIA. Bin Laden and Sadaam were not the only people trained by the CIA to do their bidding in international locations. We can't remain ignorant of these facts. Also check Thetalkingdrum.com...Do you honestly think the CIA would stop with internal COINTELPRO?

Marcus Garvey's Pan-African movement got the CIA to recruti it's first Black Agent. It wasn't just because he was effecting Africans in Amerikkka...
quote:
Originally posted by EbonyRose:
AG ...

It's a different ballgame. And in Kisongo's case, I can understand her being anti-military in any form!! I am glad to be able to say that although I can't trust any police force in any city in the country (and although they are indeed government-sanctioned, it's more state gov't than federal), I can trust my federally-sponsored troops not to do me like that ... at least for now, anyway!


Isn't the FBI federally sponsored? They have done more harm than almost any other entity.

Have read the patriot act? If you do, you might want revise your opinion.
quote:
Originally posted by Oshun Auset:
Ocatching,

Check the links to Imperialist wars launched by the U.S. I posted it on this thread. Lamumba, Kwame Kkrumah, and countless other coups of democrastically elected leaders, particularly in Africa, are all courtesy of the CIA. Bin Laden and Sadaam were not the only people trained by the CIA to do their bidding in international locations. We can't remain ignorant of these facts. Also check Thetalkingdrum.com...Do you honestly think the CIA would stop with internal COINTELPRO?

Marcus Garvey's Pan-African movement got the CIA to recruti it's first Black Agent. It wasn't just because he was effecting Africans in Amerikkka...

Let him know Oshun Auset because the propaganda machines FOX and CNN won't report that! This brother just show how the American public are so ignorant or in denial, or at best indifferent. What a tragedy!

Here is the part I don't get WHY Americans insist in believing all the BS their government feed them when it's notorious that for 500 years the US government is a corrupt system. It's well known the CIA is friends with the Bin Ladens, and the Saudi Monarchy who sponsor terrorism in the Middle East and Africa. And, when Al-Queda - lead by the Saudis - attacks the US, Americans act like it's a surprise! Facts: NO nuclear weapons were found in Iraq. Saddam Hussein was NOT responsible for the attacks on September 11. It was REAGAN who sent billions of dollars of credit and WMD to Iraq! But George Bush keep lying to Americans, and his business friends are richer when black men go into the military and take most of the bullets! If soldiers have no moral blame for the wars they are in they just fight them, then are INTERNATIONAL TERRORIST "PUPPETS," they are "professional" criminals for the warmongers Bush, Cheney & Co. Now I understand Eek .
quote:
Originally posted by Oshun Auset:
quote:
Originally posted by EbonyRose:
it is still a different matter than having the government send it's military troops through a city, burning every building, shooting every man, raping most if not all the women and girls and kidnapping the boys to become military soldiers. And that is what happens in (way too many) countries in Africa _today_.

I intentionally did not say that we are not persecuted here in America - of course I know we are, and in everyway you just mentioned and then some!! Eek Bbut, I was just not speaking of that in this comment, and the persecution we face may be of the same mentality, but is not conducted in the same way as it is in Angola. Plus, over there, it is not just the gov't, and the military, but also any police, or any other group or tribe the gov't may decide to give arms to.

I can trust my federally-sponsored troops not to do me like that ... at least for now, anyway!


Black Wallstreet/Tulsa Oklahoma anyone?...There were AIR STRIKES...How soon we forget...


Ocatching,

Check the links to Imperialist wars launched by the U.S. I posted it on this thread. Lamumba, Kwame Kkrumah, and countless other coups of democrastically elected leaders, particularly in Africa, are all courtesy of the CIA. Bin Laden and Sadaam were not the only people trained by the CIA to do their bidding in international locations. We can't remain ignorant of these facts. Also check Thetalkingdrum.com...Do you honestly think the CIA would stop with internal COINTELPRO?

Marcus Garvey's Pan-African movement got the CIA to recruti it's first Black Agent. It wasn't just because he was effecting Africans in Amerikkka...


Thanks for the links OA.
Maybe I'm missing something here but I never said the US was not full of crooked, backstabbing, low life SOB's. But to try to blame the military for this is a bunch of BS. I'll look at the links again b/c maybe I'm missing something.



catch
Okay Oshun Auset and AudioGuy ... I get your points!! winkgrin

But, with all due respect, Black Wall Street was in the 1920's and Cointelpro was in the 1960's. Federal agents do not wear fatigues and march by companies into neighborhoods and conduct crimes against humanity. (Civil rights violations, yes! But, that's another story.)

As bas as we have it here today with those very real forces working against us, I sincerely hope you don't seriously compare it to places like Angola, Sudan, the DRC, and other African countries where the government actually does order it's military troops to go into cities, towns and villages to commit heinous crimes against its own citizens not every 30 or 40 years ... but did so today, and tomorrow and yesterday! Eek

Yes, we are targeted and harassed and persecuted here ... but killed, raped or burned out of our homes en masse ... I think not!

And KISONGO ...

May I ask why do so many Continental Africans such as yourself so loudly and vehemently condemn us African Americans for our failure to control our government and assume that the reason we don't control our government is because we are totally ignorant of the things our government does ... when you and your people are no better at doing either with your own governmental institutions?

It totally amazes me how many African-born people all say that very same thing, yet their own knowledge and ability cannot/does not stop their own governments from the corruption and domination that invades them?? Confused May I ask why you assume that we don't know the actions of our own government?? And what it is that you believe that we are not doing or don't do in order to make them stop? And also why Angola is still experiencing 20 years of civil war if you have the knowledge of how to stop it? Confused
quote:
Originally posted by KISONGO:
quote:
Originally posted by Oshun Auset:
Ocatching,

Check the links to Imperialist wars launched by the U.S. I posted it on this thread. Lamumba, Kwame Kkrumah, and countless other coups of democrastically elected leaders, particularly in Africa, are all courtesy of the CIA. Bin Laden and Sadaam were not the only people trained by the CIA to do their bidding in international locations. We can't remain ignorant of these facts. Also check Thetalkingdrum.com...Do you honestly think the CIA would stop with internal COINTELPRO?

Marcus Garvey's Pan-African movement got the CIA to recruti it's first Black Agent. It wasn't just because he was effecting Africans in Amerikkka...

Let him know Oshun Auset because the propaganda machines FOX and CNN won't report that! This brother just show how the American public are so ignorant or in denial, or at best indifferent. What a tragedy!

Here is the part I don't get WHY Americans insist in believing all the BS their government feed them when it's notorious that for 500 years the US government is a corrupt system. It's well known the CIA is friends with the Bin Ladens, and the Saudi Monarchy who sponsor terrorism in the Middle East and Africa. And, when Al-Queda - lead by the Saudis - attacks the US, Americans act like it's a surprise! Facts: NO nuclear weapons were found in Iraq. Saddam Hussein was NOT responsible for the attacks on September 11. It was REAGAN who sent billions of dollars of credit and WMD to Iraq! But George Bush keep lying to Americans, and his business friends are richer when black men go into the military and take most of the bullets! If soldiers have no moral blame for the wars they are in they just fight them, then are INTERNATIONAL TERRORIST "PUPPETS," they are "professional" criminals for the warmongers Bush, Cheney & Co. Now I understand Eek .


Roll Eyes
I thought the point was the military was leading this great crusade? Now its the CIA, FBI, (dot dot ditty dot dot dash). As Jazzdog pointed out we don't make policy. I'm g;ad you finally jumped on the bandwagon and realized that there are no WMD's but I along with many of the other terrorist realized that over a year ago, so I'm not impressed with your outdated stats.
By the way you should lend your support to the latest hostage, I'm sure your arguements will help win his freedom. sleep


catch
quote:
And KISONGO ...

May I ask why do so many Continental Africans such as yourself so loudly and vehemently condemn us African Americans for our failure to control our government and assume that the reason we don't control our government is because we are totally ignorant of the things our government does ... when you and your people are no better at doing either with your own governmental institutions?

It totally amazes me how many African-born people all say that very same thing, yet their own knowledge and ability cannot/does not stop their own governments from the corruption and domination that invades them?? May I ask why you assume that we don't know the actions of our own government?? And what it is that you believe that we are not doing or don't do in order to make them stop? And also why Angola is still experiencing 20 years of civil war if you have the knowledge of how to stop it?




Great point ER and I can't wait to see who the fall guy will be for this. Wink

catch
[Dalontay thinks that joining the military will give him the necessary confidence and discpline that he never received at home. Do you think Dalontay is thinking about "Bush & Co lame propagandas" or his future???[/QUOTE]

The troops have a conscience, they are conscience of the facts that they need to eat, have a career and a chance for a better education. Dont bash the troops, they didnt send themselves into a preemptive,unjustified, no-win situation of Iraq. Many are there bc they wanted a better life economically. If you havent noticed, there are no quality jobs. If you cant afford college, military may be a sacrifice to get you there, and they know the consequences of being in the military, but yet they still want that better opportunity in life, so they sign up. I have many family members and friends in the military who just happen to be in the middle of their enlistment when these wars started. They dont agree with Iraq war now that they know the facts about WMDs, but they have time left on their enlistment,sothey have to go. I will always support the troops, one in particular the most, my husband who is a SGT in the Marines who is packing up for Iraq soon. I support all the troops and pray for their safe return to their loved ones.

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