Tookie is the black man [behind bars] whose authorship wrote a book series teaching the worlds' children about the dangers of gang violence.

Tookie is a changed man. He has proven once again that a black man (i.e. Malcolm X, Carl Upchurch) behind bars can spin a creative state-of-mind outside of his own current condition of living.

These days {"I"] strongly question this so-Called society's legal or moral right to render 'death sentences' upon anyone. The judgment of GOD has been superceded, I reckon, by man's own interpretation of what is/is not allowable as a crime punishable by death.


Fine
-------------------------
I signed the Petition (22399)

Petition--
http://www.petitiononlin e.com/stw4804/petition.html

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Stanley "Tookie" Williams Faces Execution This Year If Clemency Not Granted
http://www.indybay.org/archives/archive_b y_id.php?id=3669&category_id=12

On October 11th, the U.S. Supreme Court rejected Stanley "Tookie" Williams' appeal to investigate the racism and discrimination at the heart of the case, as well as Tookie's innocence issues. The prosecutor in Tookie's original case removed all of the Black jurors from the jury, leaving an all-white jury to deliberate the case. During the trial, this prosecutor made racially-coded remarks during his closing argument, comparing Williams to a Bengal tiger in a zoo, and stating that a black community - South Central Los Angeles - was equivalent to the natural "habitat" of a Bengal Tiger.

The Supreme Court's refusal to investigate racism in this case establishes as "case law" for the nation the right for prosecutors to exclude jurors on the basis of race and to denigrate minority defendants in front of all-white juries. The 9th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals posited in 2002 that Tookie's prison writings, in which he renounces his former life as a gangster, could be grounds for the California governor to grant him clemency. If he is not granted clemency, he will be executed on December 13th.

Campaign to End the Death Penalty is sponsoring a "Voices from Death Row" speaking tour. It includes Tookie's friend and advocate, Barbara Becnel, and there were events in San Francisco and Berkeley on October 11th. The Berkeley Fellowship of Unitarians will be screening the movie "Redemption", which is about Tookie's life, on Friday, October 21st, at 7:00 pm, at 1924 Cedar St. at Bonita Ave. in Berkeley.

Always Remember that: "Anytime We As A People Are Not Having Our WaySomeone Else Is Having Theirs...And It's Never To Our Advantage."

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I would much rather fight to have his death sentence commuted to "Life In Prison w/o Parole" than to see the same thing happen to Mumia Abu Jamal - who's body contained a bullet from the officer that he KILL. The last known witness who can attest to the actual events and put much of these conspiracy theories to rest - is now DEAD. "Dead men tell no tales, but live one's do." They may even get a reoccuring segment on "Democracy Now". (I could just imagine the backlash if Bobby Cherry or Killen of the Birmingham Bombing terrorism were given a monthly segment on a conservative talk show). I guess an "offense" is in the eye of the beholder. sck
quote:
Originally posted by Constructive Feedback:
I would much rather fight to have his death sentence commuted to "Life In Prison w/o Parole" than to see the same thing happen to Mumia Abu Jamal - who's body contained a bullet from the officer that he KILL. The last known witness who can attest to the actual events and put much of these conspiracy theories to rest - is now DEAD. "Dead men tell no tales, but live one's do." They may even get a reoccuring segment on "Democracy Now". (I could just imagine the backlash if Bobby Cherry or Killen of the Birmingham Bombing terrorism were given a monthly segment on a conservative talk show). I guess an "offense" is in the eye of the beholder. sck


CF, there is a huge difference between a guy using self-defense toward a crooked cop using deadly excessive force, and a group of cowardly white supremacists who bomb a church, wounding unarmed dozens of the congregation and killing four children.
I am anti-death penalty. Period. But that said, if we are going to have one, we must find a balance between the blood-lust of the victim's family (and for that matter, society) and the rehabilitation and contributions to society of the convicted.

Where is the justice in executing a man who has devoted the latter half of his life to promoting peace and non-violence; while sparing the life of an unrepentant BTK [serial] killer?

quote:
I would much rather fight to have his death sentence commuted to "Life In Prison w/o Parole" than to see the same thing happen to Mumia Abu Jamal - who's body contained a bullet from the officer that he KILL.


Are you saying that Jamal shot that cop? I'm more inclined to believe that something else happenned. BTW, How could a court allow defense witnesse police officers not testify because some were on vacation, and they just could find some of the other cops?
". . . His vocal support of MOVE's uncompromising life-style lost him jobs at Black stations, and he was forced to moonlight to support his family. The mayor's outburst marked the beginning of a campaign of police harassment that included such subtleties as a cocked finger and a 'bang bang' from a smirking cop, and escalated to a late-night police beating of Mumia's brother on the street.

Mumia was driving a cab that night. It is undisputed that he intervened. It is undisputed that both he and officer Daniel Faulkner were shot, and that Faulkner died. What is in dispute is who killed Faulkner. Mumia says it was someone else, and several witnesses saw another shooter flee the scene. Mumia's legally registered .38 was never decisively linked to Faulkner's wounds.

Mumia's murder trial was a policeman's dream. Denied the right to represent himself, he was defended by a reluctant incompetent who was later disbarred (and who has since filed an affadavit in Mumia's support detailing his delinquencies). Mumia was prosecuted by a DA who was later reprimanded for withholding evidence in another trial. He was allowed only $150 to interview witnesses.

But best of all was the judge. A life member of the Fraternal Order of Police, branded as a "defendant's nightmare" by the Philadelphia Inquirer, Judge Albert F. Sabo has sentenced more men to die (31 to date, only two of them white) than any other sitting judge in America. A fellow judge once called his courtroom a "vacation for prosecutors" because of bias toward convictions.

Sabo wouldn't allow Mumia to defend himself because his dreadlocks made jurors "nervous." Kept in a holding cell, he read about his own trial in the newspapers. A Black juror was removed for violating sequestration, while a white juror was given an court escort to take a civil service exam; in the end all the Black jurors but one were removed. A policeman who filed two conflicting reports was never subpoenaed (he was "on vacation"). Mumia's Black Panther history was waved like a bloody flag: Had he said, "All power to the people?" Yes, he admitted, he had said that. Character witnesses like poet Sonia Sanchez were cross-examined about their "anti-police" writings and associations.

Thus with Judge Sabo's help, an award-winning radical journalist with no criminal record was portrayed as a police assassin lying in wait since age 15. After Mumia's conviction, Sabo instructed the jury: "You are not being asked to kill anybody" by imposing the death penalty, since the defendant will get "appeal after appeal after appeal." Such instruction, grounds for reversal since Caldwell vs. Mississippi, was allowed in Mumia's case.

Mumia's appeals have so far gone unanswered. After being on Death Row for thirteen years, he is now the target of a police-led smear campaign. Last year NPR's "All Things Considered" canceled a scheduled series of his commentaries after the Fraternal Order of Police objected. Mumia's book, LIVE FROM DEATH ROW, has been greeted with a boycott and a skywriter circling the publisher's Boston offices: "Addison-Wesley Supports Cop Killers" Officer Faulkner's widow has gone on TV claiming that Mumia smiled at her when her husband's bloody shirt was shown--even though the record shows that Mumia wasn't in the courtroom that day.

Mumia and his supporters want only one thing--a new trial, with an unbiased judge and a competent lawyer. Defense attorney Leonard Weinglass has entered a motion to have Judge Sabo removed from the case because he cannot provide even the "appearance of fairness." The struggle became a race against time last month, when Pennsylvania Governor Ridge, though fully aware of the many questions in the case, signed a death warrant scheduling Mumia for execution August 17.

Mumia Abu-Jamal was not surprised. Several of the essays in his book deal with America's frantic "march toward the death chamber." As he wrote several years ago in the Yale Law Journal, "states that have not slain in a generation now ready their machinery: generators whine, poison liquids are mixed, and gases are measured and readied."

Unless Mumia Abu Jamal's final petition is answered, and he gets the fair trial he deserves, America will see its the first explicitly political execution since the Rosenbergs were put to death in 1953. Frank Rizzo's angry threat will be fulfilled, for one "new breed" journalist at least. It will stop. We won't hear any more criticism of the police from Mumia Abu-Jamal. Forever."

http://www.mumia2000.org/
Tookie was a predator and deserves to die. He is less reformable than a crooked cop.

A cop is a person whose aim is to help his community and keep it safe from predators by upholding the law.

A criminal is a person whose aim is to prey on his community and help himself at the expense of others by breaking the law.

A cop who broke the law once is more valuable to society than a criminal who obeyed the law once.

I grew up in Los Angeles and I know Tookie was a first class degenerate. He used to show up at concerts and have his butt boys oil up his arms. He intimidates people for sport.

In a 20 year period, LA street gangs have killed more than 3x 9/11 and the Crips were responsible in the deaths of hundreds. There is no greater hypocrisy than to claim to have the interests of blackfolks at heart and seek clemency for a murdering gang kingpin.

I will forgive Tookie about 50 years after I forgive Mark Fuhrman.
quote:
Originally posted by Cobb:

Tookie was a predator and deserves to die. He is less reformable than a crooked cop.

A cop is a person whose aim is to help his community and keep it safe from predators by upholding the law.



Mr. Compassion speaks again. Of course you would know this because you've reformed a lot of crooked cops.

A cop is a person who is a borderline thug, as shown by numerous psychological studies and like a gazillion media articles.

A cop is a person whose aim is to help his community, especially the white sections of his community. The Black sections? Well, maybe if there's nothing better to do.

Such logic; I can't continue.
quote:
A cop is a person whose aim is to help his community and keep it safe from predators by upholding the law.

A criminal is a person whose aim is to prey on his community and help himself at the expense of others by breaking the law.

A cop who broke the law once is more valuable to society than a criminal who obeyed the law once.


First, corrupt cops rarely break the law once, unless it is their first time.

Second, you're assuming that criminal is generally not law abiding.

A corrupt cop is a criminal, just as the gang-banger is a criminal.

In my view, the corrupt cop is far more damaging to society than the gang-banger. I would think that a crooked cop should be held to a higher standard, in that they swore to uphold the law they now violate.
I read somewhere that if people who were police officers couldn't be police officers, they'd be criminals. There's a thin line between cop and criminal...
quote:
Originally posted by Kweli4Real:
quote:
A cop is a person whose aim is to help his community and keep it safe from predators by upholding the law.

A criminal is a person whose aim is to prey on his community and help himself at the expense of others by breaking the law.

A cop who broke the law once is more valuable to society than a criminal who obeyed the law once.


First, corrupt cops rarely break the law once, unless it is their first time.

Second, you're assuming that criminal is generally not law abiding.

A corrupt cop is a criminal, just as the gang-banger is a criminal.

In my view, the corrupt cop is far more damaging to society than the gang-banger. I would think that a crooked cop should be held to a higher standard, in that they swore to uphold the law they now violate.


Good point, a criminal is a criminal, it doesn't matter if he was a police officer, firefighter, or mayor once he crosses the line it doesn't matter how he served society.

And yes cops should be held to a higher standard, they swore to uphold the law and protect the innocent and society at large, when they cross the line and become the very thing that they are suppose to protect us from yes they should pay and pay big.
quote:
Originally posted by Isome:
I read somewhere that if people who were police officers couldn't be police officers, they'd be criminals. There's a thin line between cop and criminal...


This was one of the psychological studies I read. But I can't find it on Google.
Constructive Feedback--I would much rather fight to have his death sentence commuted to "Life In Prison w/o Parole" than to see the same thing happen to Mumia Abu Jamal - who's body contained a bullet from the officer that he KILL.

--one of the more sensible responses I've heard from you.

Fine


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Isome--
quote:
I read somewhere that if people who were police officers couldn't be police officers, they'd be criminals. There's a thin line between cop and criminal...


--This statement is valid.

Fine

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Kweli4Real--"I am anti-death penalty..."

--when the convicted dies, a 1,000 more potential criminals spring up in his place. The root of the problem is never solved.

Fine

------------

Sunnubian--off topic

Fine

-----------------
Cobb--"Tookie was a predator..."


Fine--His good deeds far outweigh the crime committed. When is the last time you wrote a series of books globally that had a profound and positive affect on youth?

------------

jazzdog--"Good point, a criminal is a criminal, it doesn't matter if he was a police officer, firefighter, or mayor once he crosses the line it doesn't matter how he served society."

And yes cops should be held to a higher standard, they swore to uphold the law and protect the innocent and society at large, when they cross the line and become the very thing that they are suppose to protect us from yes they should pay and pay big.

Fine--ideally, your statements have merit. However, the society in which we live is more flawed than the flawed laws it creates.

I look at all first line law breakers (i.e. cops) as the new pit-bulls of the old Roman Empire.


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Pace Tua--"This was one of the psychological studies I read. But I can't find it on Google."

Fine--Ah, so you do source the internet as an addendum to footwork of library research? hmmm, interesting!
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quote:
Originally posted by Isome:
I read somewhere that if people who were police officers couldn't be police officers, they'd be criminals. There's a thin line between cop and criminal...

________________________________________

Actually the only difference between a crooked cop and a thug is that the crooked cop is a coward and needs a badge to hid behind; the thug goes out and does the exact same things that police do and police go out and do the exact same things that thugs do; the only difference is that a cop can hid his dirt behind a badge or a farce of legitimacy while the thug is wide open without anything to hid behind when they do their dirt.

Thin line? What line?
quote:
Originally posted by Fine:

Fine--Ah, so you do source the internet as an addendum to footwork of library research?


Internet? What's that? Library? What are you talking about? Most of the information I post comes from the checkout counter where I buy groceries. You can't beat the Star for in-depth commentary and factual reporting. Sorta like some of yours.

Ah, also, Fine, there were no "pit-bulls of the old Roman Empire". The breed wasn't developed until the 1800s. Sorry.
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quote:
I read somewhere that if people who were police officers couldn't be police officers, they'd be criminals. There's a thin line between cop and criminal...


My father was a cop. According to those that knew him, until his return from serving/surviving in WWII, he was the 40's version of a thug.

I believe the thin line thing.
quote:
CF, there is a huge difference between a guy using self-defense toward a crooked cop using deadly excessive force, and a group of cowardly white supremacists who bomb a church, wounding unarmed dozens of the congregation and killing four children.


SUZE ME - THE MAN DOES NOT CLAIM TO HAVE SHOT THE NOW DEAD COP - even today.

Please JUSTIFY your claims of SELF-DEFENSE? You have no justification.

The talking point is that some "mystical negro" appeared in the night and actually did the shooting.

If you are going to defend this killer - at least get your story straight.
quote:
Denied the right to represent himself, he was defended by a reluctant incompetent who was later disbarred (and who has since filed an affadavit in Mumia's support detailing his delinquencies).


Sunnubian - please, please, please.

The trial STARTED WITH "Killa Mu" representing himself. HE ATTEMPTED TO put the SYSTEM ON TRIAL and thus he was given legal representation.

You see when you are as GUILTY as he is you need to TALK ABOUT EVERYTHING but the details of your case.

Did you ever see the 60 Minutes interview with "Killa Mu"? I was so happy when the reporter asked him BLUNTLY "What happened"?

"Killa Mu" then went into a soliloquy: "The sky was pitched black like God had stripped it of all color. The stars glistened like they were freshly polished. The moon bore a sense of forboding". I was saying NIGRA PLEASE!!!!! Then the guy asked "DID YOU DO IT". The look on his face was all that I needed to see. I ASSURE YOU NONE OF HIS LEFTWING DEFENDERS EVER ASKED HIM THAT QUESTION SO BLUNTLY AND HE WAS NOT PREPARED FOR IT.

G U I L T Y

Having been convicted a person NOW HAS TO PROVE HIS INNOCENCE. "Killa Mu" hasn't even gotten his story straight yet.

I give it to him - he is a good journalist for "Democracy Now" and the left. I assure you though - no White Conservative would be able to get away with embrasing a White man that killed a Black cop, having him invited on their radio show periodically.
It is absolutely amazing that you are talking about cop psychology, of which you know zilch, instead of the leader of the Crips, astounding!

I had no idea when I came here, I'd land in the center of the Coalition of the Damned.

I just wonder, for the sake of my curiosity and amusement, how many of you have kids in school near gang territory?
quote:
Originally posted by Cobb:
It is absolutely amazing that you are talking about cop psychology, of which you know zilch, instead of the leader of the Crips, astounding!

I had no idea when I came here, I'd land in the center of the Coalition of the Damned.

I just wonder, for the sake of my curiosity and amusement, how many of you have kids in school near gang territory?

***************************
...Can't believe that anyone in their right mind would select a Tookie Williams for any high honor, be it today, or years from today!

****************************
Execution Closer for 'a Model of Humanity'

By Henry Weinstein, Times Staff Writer

October 25, 2005

Lawyers and religious figures on Monday launched what is expected to be a vigorous battle to save the life of Stanley "Tookie" Williams, the reputed co-founder of the Crips street gang, after a judge set Dec. 13 as his execution date.

Because he has lost all his appeals, it appears that only a grant of clemency from Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger could save Williams, 51, convicted 24 years ago of four Los Angeles murders "” the shootings of Albert Owens, who was killed in the robbery of a 7-Eleven store on Feb. 27, 1979, and of motel owners Yen-I Yang and Thsai-Shaic Yang and their daughter, Yee Chen Lin, at the Brookhaven Motel on South Vermont Avenue 12 days later.

No California governor since Ronald Reagan has granted clemency in a death penalty case.

But a coalition of religious leaders and opponents of the death penalty argue that Williams' case is exceptional. Over the last decade, he has published several children's books urging disadvantaged youths to avoid gangs and violence. He has been nominated for a Nobel Prize and last year was the subject of a favorable television movie "Redemption: The Stan 'Tookie' Williams Story."

Williams has "spent his life in jail ... turning people away from crime, turning them away from deeds that tear at the fabric of society," said Rabbi Steven B. Jacobs of Temple Kol Tikvah in Woodland Hills.

"This man has been rehabilitated. We are asking the governor to commute his sentence.... He is a model of humanity, especially for the black man."

But Lora Owens, the stepmother of Albert Owens, said the execution should go forward. She said Williams has not accepted responsibility for his murders and has done nothing to redeem himself.

"To be redeemed means to accept responsibility or assume responsibility and not use it as a means of getting out of just punishment," Owens said.

"He chose to be judge, jury and executioner in a matter of seconds, and yet it has taken years for him to come to justice," she said.

Asked whether she was convinced that Williams murdered her stepson, Owens said: "From the facts given to me, I have no doubts." Then she added, "I was not the one who convicted him; I am not the one who sentenced him; I am trying to keep the memory of Albert alive because he is the one who was done wrong."

Owens was working at the 7-Eleven store, which Williams and three others robbed of $120, according to court records.

Williams has denied committing the four killings. On Monday, Verna Wefald, his current appellate attorney, said, "The evidence against him is very weak," adding that it was based on unreliable testimony from "informants and longtime con men." She said the defense is "continuing to explore" options.

Alfred Coward, an immunized government witness, testified at trial that he, Williams, and two other men smoked cigarettes laced with PCP before the robbery. Coward testified that Williams shot out the store's television monitor before shooting Owens in the head.

Four witnesses provided testimony identifying Williams as the perpetrator of the Yang killings, according to court records.

On Monday, Superior Court Judge William R. Pounders rejected a request by defense attorneys to delay the execution date to Dec. 22 to give them more time to prepare their clemency papers, which are due Nov. 8.

"This case has taken over 24 years to get to this point," Pounders said. "That is a long delay in itself, and I would hate to add to that delay."

Neither state nor local officials would comment on the looming clemency battle, but they are expected to argue that Williams has never formally accepted responsibility for his crimes.

In California and the 36 other states that have the death penalty, an individual facing execution has a right to apply to the governor for clemency, but there are virtually no rules on how to respond. In California and most other states, the governor has complete discretion.

Since becoming governor, Schwarzenegger has rejected two clemency requests from death row inmates "” Donald Beardslee, who was executed early this year, and Kevin Cooper, who won a last-minute reprieve from a federal appeals court last year. Cooper's appeals are pending.

Earlier this month, Andrea Hoch, the governor's legal affairs secretary, sent a letter informing attorneys involved in the case that materials submitted to the governor's office regarding clemency would be sent to the Board of Parole Hearings "as a matter of course." Hoch also said the governor may call for a hearing on the clemency request.

In the last detailed ruling on the case, in September 2002, a three-judge panel of the U.S. 9th Circuit Court of Appeals upheld Williams' death sentence but suggested, in a rare move, that then-Gov. Gray Davis consider commuting the sentence because of Williams' "laudable" anti-gang efforts while in prison. Davis did not commute the sentence.

In February of this year, over objections from nine of its 24 active judges, the 9th Circuit refused to grant Williams another hearing based on his claim that he was a victim of racially biased jury selection. The prosecutor rejected all three blacks who might have served on the jury.

Judge Johnnie Rawlinson, writing for the dissenting judges, said, "A prosecutor publicly castigated by the Supreme Court of California for his pattern of racially motivated peremptory jury challenges removed all blacks from Williams' jury. In declining to [rehear] this case, our court bestows an implicit imprimatur upon the trial court's denial of a constitutionally mandated jury selection process."

Nathan Barankin, a spokesman for Atty. Gen. Bill Lockyer, said last February that the trial prosecutor had "good reasons not related to race" for dismissing the black jurors. One was excused because of a work hardship, another because she said she would require prosecutors to meet a higher standard of proof than normal and the third out of concern that he would be guided by his background as a psychologist rather than the evidence, Barankin said.

In early October, the U.S. Supreme Court declined to hear Williams' case.

Because that denial appeared to be the last realistic chance for Williams to have his sentence reversed in court, his lawyers and supporters are concentrating on clemency arguments.

"He went through a personal metamorphosis 15 years ago and since then has reached out to young people," said Peter Fleming, the New York lawyer who is leading Williams' clemency team. "He has made extraordinary efforts to reach out to young people to dissuade them from engaging in the kind of [gang] activity he did," Fleming said in an interview.

In addition to Jacobs, the clergymen supporting Williams' bid for life include the Rev. James Lawson, a longtime civil rights leader; Catholic priest Christopher Ponnet; and Rabbi Leonard Beerman, the founding rabbi of Leo Baeck Temple in West Los Angeles.

"When the first case of murder in all of human history was confronted by God, God decided not to execute the murderer by stoning or hanging or by laying him on a gurney," Beerman said. "God ordained that [Cain] not be executed, but that a mark be placed on his head and no one else was to kill him. If this decision was good enough for God, is it not good enough for the governor of California?"

Copyright 2005 Los Angeles Times

***************************
Execution Closer for 'a Model of Humanity'

By Henry Weinstein, Times Staff Writer

October 25, 2005

Lawyers and religious figures on Monday launched what is expected to be a vigorous battle to save the life of Stanley "Tookie" Williams, the reputed co-founder of the Crips street gang, after a judge set Dec. 13 as his execution date.

Because he has lost all his appeals, it appears that only a grant of clemency from Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger could save Williams, 51, convicted 24 years ago of four Los Angeles murders "” the shootings of Albert Owens, who was killed in the robbery of a 7-Eleven store on Feb. 27, 1979, and of motel owners Yen-I Yang and Thsai-Shaic Yang and their daughter, Yee Chen Lin, at the Brookhaven Motel on South Vermont Avenue 12 days later.

No California governor since Ronald Reagan has granted clemency in a death penalty case.

But a coalition of religious leaders and opponents of the death penalty argue that Williams' case is exceptional. Over the last decade, he has published several children's books urging disadvantaged youths to avoid gangs and violence. He has been nominated for a Nobel Prize and last year was the subject of a favorable television movie "Redemption: The Stan 'Tookie' Williams Story."

Williams has "spent his life in jail ... turning people away from crime, turning them away from deeds that tear at the fabric of society," said Rabbi Steven B. Jacobs of Temple Kol Tikvah in Woodland Hills.

"This man has been rehabilitated. We are asking the governor to commute his sentence.... He is a model of humanity, especially for the black man."

But Lora Owens, the stepmother of Albert Owens, said the execution should go forward. She said Williams has not accepted responsibility for his murders and has done nothing to redeem himself.

"To be redeemed means to accept responsibility or assume responsibility and not use it as a means of getting out of just punishment," Owens said.

"He chose to be judge, jury and executioner in a matter of seconds, and yet it has taken years for him to come to justice," she said.

Asked whether she was convinced that Williams murdered her stepson, Owens said: "From the facts given to me, I have no doubts." Then she added, "I was not the one who convicted him; I am not the one who sentenced him; I am trying to keep the memory of Albert alive because he is the one who was done wrong."

Owens was working at the 7-Eleven store, which Williams and three others robbed of $120, according to court records.

Williams has denied committing the four killings. On Monday, Verna Wefald, his current appellate attorney, said, "The evidence against him is very weak," adding that it was based on unreliable testimony from "informants and longtime con men." She said the defense is "continuing to explore" options.

Alfred Coward, an immunized government witness, testified at trial that he, Williams, and two other men smoked cigarettes laced with PCP before the robbery. Coward testified that Williams shot out the store's television monitor before shooting Owens in the head.

Four witnesses provided testimony identifying Williams as the perpetrator of the Yang killings, according to court records.

On Monday, Superior Court Judge William R. Pounders rejected a request by defense attorneys to delay the execution date to Dec. 22 to give them more time to prepare their clemency papers, which are due Nov. 8.

"This case has taken over 24 years to get to this point," Pounders said. "That is a long delay in itself, and I would hate to add to that delay."

Neither state nor local officials would comment on the looming clemency battle, but they are expected to argue that Williams has never formally accepted responsibility for his crimes.

In California and the 36 other states that have the death penalty, an individual facing execution has a right to apply to the governor for clemency, but there are virtually no rules on how to respond. In California and most other states, the governor has complete discretion.

Since becoming governor, Schwarzenegger has rejected two clemency requests from death row inmates "” Donald Beardslee, who was executed early this year, and Kevin Cooper, who won a last-minute reprieve from a federal appeals court last year. Cooper's appeals are pending.

Earlier this month, Andrea Hoch, the governor's legal affairs secretary, sent a letter informing attorneys involved in the case that materials submitted to the governor's office.

regarding clemency would be sent to the Board of Parole Hearings "as a matter of course." Hoch also said the governor may call for a hearing on the clemency request.

In the last detailed ruling on the case, in September 2002, a three-judge panel of the U.S. 9th Circuit Court of Appeals upheld Williams' death sentence but suggested, in a rare move, that then-Gov. Gray Davis consider commuting the sentence because of Williams' "laudable" anti-gang efforts while in prison. Davis did not commute the sentence.

In February of this year, over objections from nine of its 24 active judges, the 9th Circuit refused to grant Williams another hearing based on his claim that he was a victim of racially biased jury selection. The prosecutor rejected all three blacks who might have served on the jury.

Judge Johnnie Rawlinson, writing for the dissenting judges, said, "A prosecutor publicly castigated by the Supreme Court of California for his pattern of racially motivated peremptory jury challenges removed all blacks from Williams' jury. In declining to [rehear] this case, our court bestows an implicit imprimatur upon the trial court's denial of a constitutionally mandated jury selection process."

Nathan Barankin, a spokesman for Atty. Gen. Bill Lockyer, said last February that the trial prosecutor had "good reasons not related to race" for dismissing the black jurors. One was excused because of a work hardship, another because she said she would require prosecutors to meet a higher standard of proof than normal and the third out of concern that he would be guided by his background as a psychologist rather than the evidence, Barankin said.

In early October, the U.S. Supreme Court declined to hear Williams' case.

Because that denial appeared to be the last realistic chance for Williams to have his sentence reversed in court, his lawyers and supporters are concentrating on clemency arguments.

"He went through a personal metamorphosis 15 years ago and since then has reached out to young people," said Peter Fleming, the New York lawyer who is leading Williams' clemency team. "He has made extraordinary efforts to reach out to young people to dissuade them from engaging in the kind of [gang] activity he did," Fleming said in an interview.

In addition to Jacobs, the clergymen supporting Williams' bid for life include the Rev. James Lawson, a longtime civil rights leader; Catholic priest Christopher Ponnet; and Rabbi Leonard Beerman, the founding rabbi of Leo Baeck Temple in West Los Angeles.

"When the first case of murder in all of human history was confronted by God, God decided not to execute the murderer by stoning or hanging or by laying him on a gurney," Beerman said. "God ordained that [Cain] not be executed, but that a mark be placed on his head and no one else was to kill him. If this decision was good enough for God, is it not good enough for the governor of California?"

Copyright 2005 Los Angeles Times
****************************
...and Cobb,

What is really shocking is that the so called Black clergy in our own community are recommending that "Tookie" Williams be given clemency, etc.,......

.....while the plight of numerous truly innocent Black men and women, presently behind bars, or whose good character has been seriously tainted, are ignored by the typical Black preachers, the Caucasian liberals, our own elitist self-serving elected leadership and/or those who praise them.

.....Furthermore, virtually unknown Caucasian writers, are making money behind the sale and distribution of children's books claimed to have been written by Tookie Williams. It is very doubtful that Tookie Williams will benefit financially or otherwise from the sale of any children's books financed by these formerly unknown Caucasian liberal opportunists, one being the editor Barbara Cottman Becnel.


.....and Cobb, can you believe that Tookie Williams was selected to be a candidate for the Nobel Peace Prize. Surely, with all the highly educated, and talented Black people around, who have made huge contributions to society, a better selection could have been made from our community to be honored to be selected as a candidate worthy of the Nobel Peace Prize.

......not to mention the havoc, loss of life, grief, and injury to numerous law abiding individuals, many of them being Black people, who have been victimized by the actions of Tookie Williams, and/or other Crip set gang members.

It is very doubtful that Republican California Governor Arnold Schwarzenegger will have any sympathy for the likes of keeping Tookie Williams in the land of the living.

Sincerely,

Michael Lofton
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quote:
Originally posted by Cobb:
I will forgive Tookie about 50 years after I forgive Mark Fuhrman.


And what do you blame Fuhrman for? Getting caught on tape perjuring himself actually saying the racist comments he denied making??? Confused
quote:
Originally posted by Constructive Feedback:
quote:
CF, there is a huge difference between a guy using self-defense toward a crooked cop using deadly excessive force, and a group of cowardly white supremacists who bomb a church, wounding unarmed dozens of the congregation and killing four children.


SUZE ME - THE MAN DOES NOT CLAIM TO HAVE SHOT THE NOW DEAD COP - even today.

Please JUSTIFY your claims of SELF-DEFENSE? You have no justification.

The talking point is that some "mystical negro" appeared in the night and actually did the shooting.

If you are going to defend this killer - at least get your story straight.


I'LL GET MY STORY STRAIGHT WHEN YOU GET YOURS STRAIGHT DAMN IT!

If you're trying to justify a supremacist for bombing a church and killing children, then you're certifiably deranged. bang

How dare you tell me to get MY story straight. This troglodyte of a human Killen was an ordained pastor, who not only broke the laws of both God and man, (and unlike Mumia who immediately went to jail) it took prosecutors over 40 years to put that SOB in jail for his crimes, because there a sordid time in America's past of white folks being acquitted for murdering black folks, which wasn't THAT long ago.
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quote:
If you're trying to justify a supremacist for bombing a church and killing children, you certifiably deranged.


I will note - Never to introduce an example that allows Huey side track from the main issue at hand.

I was speaking of relative offense in accepting a convicted killer back into your community after the fact.

You are no doubt one of the many who believe that a white man who kills one Black out of a fit of rage over racism has performed a worse crime that a black man who kills 5 Black people during a robbery.
quote:
Originally posted by Constructive Feedback:
quote:
If you're trying to justify a supremacist for bombing a church and killing children, you certifiably deranged.


I will note - Never to introduce an example that allows Huey side track from the main issue at hand.

I was speaking of relative offense in accepting a convicted killer back into your community after the fact.

You are no doubt one of the many who believe that a white man who kills one Black out of a fit of rage over racism has performed a worse crime that a black man who kills 5 Black people during a robbery.


Get it right, CF. It wasn't one Black person, it was four Black girls in a church bombing.
If prison is supposed to be about rehabilitation, then Tookie needs to be pardoned, or have his sentance commuted to life. This man has been rehabilitated.

What will killing Tookie solve that being in prison for 26 years hasn't already solved? If you kill him, the crips will still be alive and well.
quote:
Get it right, CF. It wasn't one Black person, it was four Black girls in a church bombing.


Once again - Your response has NO LINK to any point that I was attempting to make. Yet another diversion on your part.

The bombers of the chruch in Alabama are just as reprehensible as the incident last week in which the body of a young woman was found on a farm, having been burned in order to discard the evidence. You appear to be focused on the "message" behind the killing rather than the fact that in both cases - the person is DEAD. In your interpretation of these "messages" your SUBJECTIVITY allows you to put your thumb on the scale and vary your judgement based on your own personal bias.
quote:
Originally posted by Escaped Slave:
If prison is supposed to be about rehabilitation, then Tookie needs to be pardoned, or have his sentance commuted to life. This man has been rehabilitated.

What will killing Tookie solve that being in prison for 26 years hasn't already solved? If you kill him, the crips will still be alive and well.


********************************

"Costs to government to operate the criminal justice system;

Medical costs to individuals and government for crime-related injuries;

Property loss and damage;

Loss of productivity due to death or injury;

Loss of work time by victims and their families;

Loss of property values in high-crime neighborhoods;

Pain and suffering of crime victims. 19
Many of these costs are difficult to estimate with precision, so there is a wide range of estimates about the total social cost of crime, and the cost of the average individual crime. In 1992, the Department of Justice estimated only the direct property loss from crime to be $17.2 billion. A 1993 study by three scholars for Health Affairs concluded that violent crime costs about $178 billion annually. 20 A new study by the National Institute for Justice estimates the annual cost of crime at more than $450 billion. 21 U.S. News and World Report surveyed a number of economists and government sources to estimate that the total cost of crime is over $650 billion a year.22 There is good reason for supposing even these estimates to be low. 23 Hence, estimates of the total cost per individual crime range from a low of about $2300 to well over $10,000.

There are a variety of estimates, using average and median cost per crime figures, showing that incarceration, even at a relatively high cost of $25,000 per prisoner per year, is cost effective. For example, to utilize the most conservative figures from the range of estimates of the average number of crimes per criminal (12) and the average cost per crime ($2300), keeping a criminal behind bars for a year would save $27,600 in social costs.

This is a rock-bottom estimate. Most studies suggest much higher cost advantages. A 1990 study commissioned by the National Institute of Justice concluded that "the lowest estimate of the benefit of operating an additional prison cell for a year ($170,000) is over twice as high as the most extreme estimate of the cost of operating such a cell ($70,000)."24 John DiIulio and Anne Morrison Piehl of the Brookings Institution concluded that the median cost-benefit ratio of incarceration was 2.8 to 1; in other words, every dollar spent on incarceration saves $2.80 in social costs.25

This analysis has several important implications for California. It suggests that "three strikes" and similar measures that will impose longer prison sentences will yield substantial social cost savings to California. If RAND's $5 billion cost estimate for "three strikes" is correct, Californians can look forward to savings of $10-14 billion, simply from incapacitating criminals. If "three strikes" should also prove to be an effective deterrent to crime, the cost savings will be even greater. In other words, it will be far more costly to California if it does not build adequate prison space to incapacitate criminals."

*************************************

.......but keeping Tookie Williams alive won't bring closure to the heirs of his victims, or reduce the expense of the high cost of incarcerating "Tookie Williams", the cost of penal incarceration for life of any prison inmate, being much higher today.
quote:
Originally posted by Cobb:

I had no idea when I came here, I'd land in the center of the Coalition of the Damned.



Cobb, I have a simple question for you on the issues of consistency and sincerity.

How do you reconcile this statement you wrote in your "Coalition of the Damned" article,

"Every man's death diminishes me, and every child's death is a tragedy"

... with the statements you have made here?

"Tookie was a predator and deserves to die." - Stanley "Tookie" Williams, 10-26

"2,000 is a blip." - U.S. Military Deaths Reach 2,000 in Iraq, 10-26

Inconsistencies and apparent insincerity bother me and I'm always curious how a writer or speaker explains and rationalizes them, or perhaps just ignores them.
The more fundamental belief that I have closer to the core of my soul is that people have the right to make life and death decisions.

That is consistent with me being FOR legal abortion, and FOR assisted suicide, and FOR second amendment rights and FOR the raising of armies under civilian control and FOR the death penalty and FOR authorization of police to use deadly force under certain circumstance, and generally FOR a man or woman to spill their seed on the sidewalk if they damned well please.

Perfectly consistent to me.

However, I believe equally strongly two corrollaries from this. One is that people have the right to shirk this responsibility and punt it off to a proxy. That is to say, that if you feel squishy about guns, you can pay taxes to have cops carry the guns. If you feel squishy about torture, you can extradite prisoners to third countries. Everybody is not disciplined to the responsibility of their natural right to make life and death decisions. Some people I wouldn't trust to take care of a three legged dog.

Secondly, if you live by the sword, you damned well better be prepared to die by the sword. In other words, you have to have a warrior code if you're going to be a warrior. Otherwise, you're just a criminal.

I'm not a warrior. I'm a writer. There are plenty of days when I feel that I should be a warrior, but that's another story.

I hope this clears up things.

But in reading it I see another couple legs this needs for completeness.

A) God has endowed human beings with His own capacity to recognize good and evil.

B) People are morally obligated to pursue justice.
quote:
Originally posted by Constructive Feedback:
quote:
Get it right, CF. It wasn't one Black person, it was four Black girls in a church bombing.


Once again - Your response has NO LINK to any point that I was attempting to make. Yet another diversion on your part.

The bombers of the chruch in Alabama are just as reprehensible as the incident last week in which the body of a young woman was found on a farm, having been burned in order to discard the evidence. You appear to be focused on the "message" behind the killing rather than the fact that in both cases - the person is DEAD. In your interpretation of these "messages" your SUBJECTIVITY allows you to put your thumb on the scale and vary your judgement based on your own personal bias.


bs And you haven't brought a point at all. What "message" are you talking about? I'm talking about a group of bigots who were indicted for a killing, which they should've been convicted for 40-plus years ago, which YOU brought up when comparing it to the crimes of Williams and Mumia. If anyone is spinning and creating a diversion, it's you.
quote:
Originally posted by Cobb:

The more fundamental belief that I have closer to the core of my soul is that people have the right to make life and death decisions.

That's is all fine and well, but I don't see how that answers my question. You cannot claim that the death of every man diminishes you and then say that two thousand is a blip on the screen. You must be a very large man, else the diminution of two thousand would reduce you to nothing
quote:
Originally posted by Escaped Slave:
What will killing Tookie solve that being in prison for 26 years hasn't already solved? If you kill him, the crips will still be alive and well.


It will satisfy the bloodlust of those with whom vengeance is theirs. That's it. They prefer the ultimate punishment above all else. Sadly, many of them still don't get "closure".
quote:
That's is all fine and well, but I don't see how that answers my question. You cannot claim that the death of every man diminishes you and then say that two thousand is a blip on the screen. You must be a very large man, else the diminution of two thousand would reduce you to nothing


Yeah I'm large. That's my excuse. Now before you check my soul, there's somebody around here whose icon is of Mao:

There is a great deal of controversy over the number of deaths by starvation during the Great Leap Forward. A mainstream figure is that some thirty million people died during the famine that followed. In 1957, before the Great Leap, about 7–10 million people died. Due to the tremendous crop failure in 1959 caused by incompetent policies from the Great Leap Forward, around 9 to 12 million people died.

So if you're checking souls, you should check with the founder of this website. I'll wait my turn.
quote:
Originally posted by Cobb:

A mainstream figure is that some thirty million people died during the famine that followed. In 1957, before the Great Leap, about 7–10 million people died. Due to the tremendous crop failure in 1959 caused by incompetent policies from the Great Leap Forward, around 9 to 12 million people died.

So if you're checking souls, you should check with the founder of this website. I'll wait my turn.


I hardly know what to say to this. The callous nature of anyone who would write such a thing in defense of a comment on lesser numbers astounds me.

What does magnitude have to do with any of this? You're the one who said that the death of any man diminished you. Was that just sorta poetic license... it looked good on paper? Or were you sincere? That's what I asked originally.

As I think you believe from a previous post, only the One True God can judge souls. But to say that the lives of two-thousand soldiers is just a blip on the screen is callous, insensitive, and cowardly. You can hide behind miles of wire in cyberspace and say such things but you would never dare say such a thing to a veteran or the parent of a dead soldier.
I say what I mean and I mean what I say. I'm wide open and have been online for 14 years. This picture is my face. Cobb is my middle name. My full name is Michael David Cobb Bowen.

What's yours?
quote:
Originally posted by Cobb:
I say what I mean and I mean what I say. I'm wide open and have been online for 14 years. This picture is my face. Cobb is my middle name. My full name is Michael David Cobb Bowen.

What's yours?


Alright, Mr. Bowen. I'll accept what you've said here on aa.org as your true feelings. The lives of two-thousand young men and women are insignificant. I believe that this is what you think, relative to the magnitude of other human catastrophes.

To me, these deaths are a tragedy, as well as the deaths of almost countless Iraqis, especially since the whole war could have been prevented. Sincere or not, you got it right when you implied that death deminishes all of us.

And of course you must realize, that by extention and according to what you have said, the lynching, torture and deaths of thousands of AA slaves in nearly four-hundred years of bondage is also insignificant, numerically speaking.

So, no. These young men and women are not just a blip on the screen.

But I cannot belittle all this death and loss by consigning it to be just a difference of opinion. Morally, you have said nothing worth considering.
Street gangs in Los Angeles County alone have killed more Americans in the past 20 years than all the lynchings in American history.

I am doing what I can to determine what percentage of that is 'black on black' crime, but it doesn't look good.

So yes, I am trying to reconcile the outrage of black progressive and liberal politics with death and destruction on a global scale. I started some of this because I grew sick and tired of hearing daily body counts on NPR about the miserable Israelis and the miserable Palestinians a couple years ago.

Even before that, I was shocked when I learned that all of the lynching in America had been documented to be about 3000 according a Eric Foner I heard on a radio broadcast sometime in 2003. So all the time I had been invoking 'those who had died for us, the children of the Civil Rights Movement' I didn't think the number was so small.

So Murder by Numbers in the context of escalating the conflict against Saddam:
http://www.mdcbowen.org/cobb/archives/000081.html
March 08, 2003

Murder By Numbers

In the matter of civilian casualties, OxBlog gives us a number of figures to consider. Those of you who read up in Cobb, know that I've set the radar at 1 lynch factor which equals 3,000 lives, the approximate number of African Americans lynched between the failure of Reconstruction and the triumph of justice. That's also approximately the number dead on both sides from the intifada since 1968 as we keep counting them off, busload by busload in the census of inexorable human butchery.
I cannot recall any figures for heart disease, but here are some for women. I'm not sure how many people die of drowning every year, but here's a great page on mortality due to bizzare twists of fate. So according to these statistics, even if I was a Kosovar during Clinton's bombing or an Afghan during GWBush's bombing, I'd be more at risk drowning by accident than being a casualty of American Aggression. Small comfort if you own a swimming pool.

But let's leave aside the freak accidents and stare down the barrel of hostility. In 2000, there were 16,765 homicides in these great United States. That's a right fat number. As much as we fear muggers and crooks, most Americans don't worry too much about being murdered, yet a good number of us are murdered. So what of this character Saddam and his Ba'ath party? Even though OxBlog cites 'em I want to go directly to Human Rights Watch's numbers. How about killing off 190,000 folks in a decade?  This is the kind of stuff that is difficult to read through, especially if you don't want to know. I don't want to know, and I don't want to be responsible. But now that I know.. well, now I know.

Several weeks ago, I asked the rhetorical question whether or not the world will accept this imperial show. I wondered out loud if Saddam, of all the nasty bastards on the planet, and Iraq of all the gawdawful spots in the world, were the right targets for our first venture. Perhaps I am waiting for the right person to do the right thing in consideration of the fact the GWBush is wrong for just about everything which calls for an intelligent command of the oratory worthy of free world leadership. I want my emperor to be kingly, and why oh why did I get GW? Do you hear me pissing and moaning?

Yet if I could stop for a minute and start dealing with the hideous facts of the matter on the ground in Iraq (and probably a half dozen other horrible places), I wonder if I would mind so much if my president is Shrek instead of a Handsome Prince. I'm a policy snob in the face of Saddam's clear and present danger. Not to me, to Iraqis. It's not about me.

Since it is not about me, and a busybody neighbor is better than an abusive parent, I have to concede the fact that an ugly rescue is better than benign neglect. I feel that our geopolitical snobbery and posing are pretty worthless right about now, and the fact that we have to wheedle our way around the diplomatic chicanery of the UN and everyplace else is only necessitated by a failure of brotherhood and an ignoble squeamishness which is not rescued by our well-meant outrage at Bush's mendacity. I do believe in class warfare.That means noblesse on our part and revolt by the Shi'a.

The focus of the world is on Saddam Hussein. WMD or no, Iraqis are hopeless without our intervention. Now is the time for action, political snobs be damned. No matter how physically wreckless we may be, and I have a strong feeling that we won't be, this war is better happening than not. No matter how diplomatically wreckless we have been, and I know for damned sure that we have been, those are only words and hard feelings, but they're not lives. Lives are more important than words.

Let's go kick some ass and not worry so much about collateral damage.


It is precisely this calculus by which I judge the relative moral merits of causes which blacks are invited to speak up. So I see direct parallels between the Coalition of the Damned, and the Iraqi Sadrists. They are both so anti-American that they refuse help from the people who are getting rid of their deadliest enemies.

So Tookie Williams? He's the ex-leader of an extra governmental terrorist militia. He should be held politically responsible for their activities. But in addition to that, he has been convicted of four counts of murder, and so he should be put down.
quote:
Originally posted by Cobb:
Street gangs in Los Angeles County alone have killed more Americans in the past 20 years than all the lynchings in American history.

I am doing what I can to determine what percentage of that is 'black on black' crime, but it doesn't look good.


Yes, please do. As a Los Angeles native, I happen to know that it is never reported that satistically, many of the gang-related deaths in L.A. are done by and suffered by the ruthless Hispanic gangs that have taken over where the truce between Bloods and the Crips after the '92 riots left off.
quote:
Even before that, I was shocked when I learned that all of the lynching in America had been documented to be about 3000 according a Eric Foner I heard on a radio broadcast sometime in 2003. So all the time I had been invoking 'those who had died for us, the children of the Civil Rights Movement' I didn't think the number was so small.



you stupid azz N-gga listen to yourself.....SMALL? Was 9-11 small also? what the fuck is your problem?..if somebody raped your mom or daughter would you consider that just a blip because it was only one individual?......you are one sorry azz self-loathing SOB....all you house negroes are.....wow
quote:
uote:
Even before that, I was shocked when I learned that all of the lynching in America had been documented to be about 3000 according a Eric Foner I heard on a radio broadcast sometime in 2003. So all the time I had been invoking 'those who had died for us, the children of the Civil Rights Movement' I didn't think the number was so small.

___________________________________________

Do you honestly believe that even a tenth of those lynched were even documented? Hell to lynch a Black person in this country back then and until it was outlawed (and presently today in some places) meant no more to the people doing the lynching than it did for them to shoot a dog or hunt down a fox and kill it. In a lot of case slavery was the only thing saving the majority of Blacks in America from being hunted like animals and murdered; after slavery Blacks were easy and frequent targets all the time. There is a city in South Carolina where 5,000 Blacks left over night; wonder why? And just how many do you supposed never made it.

Yea, I wish I would believe the 'documentation' that has been either doctored to lessen the visability of just how sick racist whites were/are in this country, or just go to hell and wait for the illiterate, backwoods, inbred s.o.b.'s that were doing the majority of the lynching and terrorizing Blacks in America (primarily to steal their land - another thing that somehow did not get totally documented) to learn to even read or be able to even spell the word 'documentation' . . .

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