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I definetely think animals and insects have souls. And i am beginning to agree more and more with some of the traditional African religious beliefs that when people pass on they are reincarnated into objects such as a rock or plants according to the way they lived their life especially those individuals who were evil when they were in "the land of the living." reminds me of a mythical story i learned about in a african spritiuality class i took a while ago about "King Buzzard" he was a man in african that sold his own people, his kingdom to european slave traders in return for money, cloth etc... and when he died he was reincarnated into a Buzzard as punishment for it b/c buzzards are viewed as vial creatures that pray on dead things and do not interact with other creatures.
quote:
Originally posted by MBM:
Are humans the only things on earth that have a spirit? Do animals have a spirit? Plants? Insects? A rock?

What do you think?

Points of clarification:
1. What is your definition of spirit?
2. msprettygirl refers to soul. While for some people they are one in the same, in much of the philosophical and theological tradition, they are not. So again, what is the definition that you wish us to consider.
quote:
Originally posted by kresge:

Points of clarification:
1. What is your definition of spirit?
2. msprettygirl refers to soul. While for some people they are one in the same, in much of the philosophical and theological tradition, they are not. So again, what is the definition that you wish us to consider.


Since you identified what appears to be a meaningful distinction could you clarify them and then address the question to each?
With respect to the distinction, I believe that animals have spirit in the sense of that which animates their physical material body. But, in the Augustinian tradition, I do not believe that animals have souls. Soul, is unique to the human for me. Soul is identified with the imago dei.

In contemporary language, one might associate soul with sentience, self-awareness, reflexivity, and reflectivity.

Again, for most Christians, the soul is essential and immortal. After death, this is what "lives" on.
quote:
Originally posted by Melesi:
Is that quite right? I remember reading in many Protestant works the words and thoughts of Augustine. He is often studied right alongside Martin Luther. I have a few of his works on my shelf, in fact, and I remember hearing him quoted by such as Chuck Swindoll, Jack Hayford, and Pope Shimouda III.


You may indeed be right about St. Augustine be referenced in Protestant churches.

My guess, although I certainly don't know, the reference is more likely to be scholarly rather religious. My encounter with St. Augustine has been accidently, and incidental, and only within the last seven years.

In the Catholic Church, I know both he and his mother are revered. He in fact is the author of significant Catholic law and/or procedure.


PEACE

Jim Chester
quote:
Originally posted by MBM:
Are humans the only things on earth that have a spirit? Do animals have a spirit? Plants? Insects? A rock?

What do you think?


Since all the information we have on the subject as Christians come from the scriptures, the following is the Bible's view point on the subject. As you can see humans and animals have a spirit that makes them alive. When that spirit leaves their body they both die, there is no distinction

Spirit That Returns To God Is Active Life
Force, Which Is Sustained By Breathing

Eccl. 12: 7 and the dust returneth to the earth as it was, and the spirit returneth unto God who gave it.

Rev. 11: 11 And after the three days and a half the breath of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them that beheld them.

Job 27: 3 (For my life is yet whole in me, And the spirit of God is in my nostrils); 4 Surely my lips shall not speak unrighteousness, Neither shall my tongue utter deceit.

Ps. 104: 29 Thou hidest thy face, they are troubled; Thou takest away their breath, they die, And return to their dust. 30 Thou sendest forth thy Spirit, they are created; And thou renewest the face of the ground.

Gen. 6: 17 And I, behold, I do bring the flood of waters upon this earth, to destroy all flesh, wherein is the breath of life, from under heaven; everything that is in the earth shall die.

Gen. 7: 22 all in whose nostrils was the breath of the spirit of life, of all that was on the dry land, died. 23 And every living thing was destroyed that was upon the face of the ground, both man, and cattle, and creeping things, and birds of the heavens; and they were destroyed from the earth: and Noah only was left, and they that were with him in the ark.

Eccl. 3: 19 For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath; and man hath no preeminence above the beasts: for all is vanity. 20 All go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again. 21 Who knoweth the spirit of man, whether it goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast, whether it goeth downward to the earth?

When Spirit Goes Out
Conscious Life Ceases

Ps. 104: 29 Thou hidest thy face, they are troubled; Thou takest away their breath, they die, And return to their dust. 30 Thou sendest forth thy Spirit, they are created; And thou renewest the face of the ground.

Ps. 146: 3 Put not your trust in princes, Nor in the son of man, in whom there is no help. 4 His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; In that very day his thoughts perish.
quote:
Originally posted by Oshun Auset:
All life has ashe. Olodumare is in everything.

Oshun,
I understand that all life has ashe. I have a question with the last part regarding Olodumare. How does your statement relate to the other orisha's. The statement seems to be one of a kind of monotheism as opposed to my understanding of Olodumare as the high god with Yemaya, Olorun, Elegua, etc. as others in the pantheon. Is Olodumare in them? What is the distinction between Olodumare and ashe? Is he an incarnation of ashe?

I have a lot more questions along this line. Fagunwa and I had begun a similar conversation in another thread. I wish the brother would come back to the list.
quote:
Originally posted by kresge:
quote:
Originally posted by Oshun Auset:
All life has ashe. Olodumare is in everything.

Oshun,
I understand that all life has ashe. I have a question with the last part regarding Olodumare. How does your statement relate to the other orisha's. The statement seems to be one of a kind of monotheism as opposed to my understanding of Olodumare as the high god with Yemaya, Olorun, Elegua, etc. as others in the pantheon. Is Olodumare in them? What is the distinction between Olodumare and ashe? Is he an incarnation of ashe?

I have a lot more questions along this line. Fagunwa and I had begun a similar conversation in another thread. I wish the brother would come back to the list.


When I have time to explain, I'll respond. In a bit of a hurry at the moment.
quote:
Originally posted by kresge:
quote:
Originally posted by Oshun Auset:
All life has ashe. Olodumare is in everything.

Oshun,
I understand that all life has ashe. I have a question with the last part regarding Olodumare. How does your statement relate to the other orisha's. The statement seems to be one of a kind of monotheism as opposed to my understanding of Olodumare as the high god with Yemaya, Olorun, Elegua, etc. as others in the pantheon. Is Olodumare in them? What is the distinction between Olodumare and ashe? Is he an incarnation of ashe?

I have a lot more questions along this line. Fagunwa and I had begun a similar conversation in another thread. I wish the brother would come back to the list.


In my understanding Olodumare is the totaliter aliter oh sorry that's my Barth joke. Olodumare is the Yoruba name for God which is the name we give to that unknowable entity who's existance is beyond human understanding. The Orisha are in the simple version, the manifestations of this entity in the earth (nature) realm. Ifa is a monotheisic religion.
Ashe is like Ruach or Pneuma combined with dunamis. It is the animating spark which gives life and is used in combination with the Ori to understand and aprehend the manifestations of Olodumare in our lives. The energy signatures for these manifestations are called Odu.
The explanation for this theology would take a series of books and some years under qualified Elders along with the initiations which prepare the Ori for the receipt of this information. My little explanations do not do it justice.
Ask away Kresge and forgive me OA for answering this question for you.
Fagunwa or OA,
That helps a lot. But your Barth joke does raise another issue related to my previous question. If you are saying that Olodumare is totally other, in what sense do you mean it. For Barth, God's otherness has to do with there being no other like God. God is not of a kind, of a category, of a class. But God's otherness for Barth means that God can be radically with us as no other can be.

This is where I disagree with people who suggest in Barth that immanence disappears, and Barth's God is simply transcendent. But what of Olodumare? One of my professors mentioned that Olodumare is fully transcendent. Indeed, he said that Olodumare is really not concerned about the affairs of human beings, as the ruler of the universe.

How do you understand the issue of transcendence and immanence? I had thought initially from OA's comment that this might be an Ifa might actually be not only monotheistic but panentheistic.

Finally, if you were to recommend couple of books on this theology, what would they be - remembering that you are talking to a poor lil' baptist preacha in Texas. bsm
quote:
Originally posted by kresge:
Fagunwa or OA,
That helps a lot. But your Barth joke does raise another issue related to my previous question. If you are saying that Olodumare is totally other, in what sense do you mean it. For Barth, God's otherness has to do with there being no other like God. God is not of a kind, of a category, of a class. But God's otherness for Barth means that God can be radically with us as no other can be.

This is where I disagree with people who suggest in Barth that immanence disappears, and Barth's God is simply transcendent. But what of Olodumare? One of my professors mentioned that Olodumare is fully transcendent. Indeed, he said that Olodumare is really not concerned about the affairs of human beings, as the ruler of the universe.

How do you understand the issue of transcendence and immanence? I had thought initially from OA's comment that this might be an Ifa might actually be not only monotheistic but panentheistic.

Finally, if you were to recommend couple of books on this theology, what would they be - remembering that you are talking to a poor lil' baptist preacha in Texas. bsm


I agree %100 with your professor Olodumare is fully transcendant. I see the issues of transcendence and immanance the same as any ex-divinity student (smiling).

Books are tough because of the initiatory nature of the religion. That said I love anything by Wande Abimbola and Fa lokun Fatunmbi. I also love Drewal.Especially "900 years of Yoruba Thought. Robert Farris Thompson's "Face of the Gods". These touch the surface, but for true depth one must be initiated into these mysteries and sit under a qualified Elder.
quote:
Originally posted by Fagunwa:
quote:
Originally posted by kresge:
quote:
Originally posted by Oshun Auset:
All life has ashe. Olodumare is in everything.

Oshun,
I understand that all life has ashe. I have a question with the last part regarding Olodumare. How does your statement relate to the other orisha's. The statement seems to be one of a kind of monotheism as opposed to my understanding of Olodumare as the high god with Yemaya, Olorun, Elegua, etc. as others in the pantheon. Is Olodumare in them? What is the distinction between Olodumare and ashe? Is he an incarnation of ashe?

I have a lot more questions along this line. Fagunwa and I had begun a similar conversation in another thread. I wish the brother would come back to the list.


In my understanding Olodumare is the totaliter aliter oh sorry that's my Barth joke. Olodumare is the Yoruba name for God which is the name we give to that unknowable entity who's existance is beyond human understanding. The Orisha are in the simple version, the manifestations of this entity in the earth (nature) realm. Ifa is a monotheisic religion.
Ashe is like Ruach or Pneuma combined with dunamis. It is the animating spark which gives life and is used in combination with the Ori to understand and aprehend the manifestations of Olodumare in our lives. The energy signatures for these manifestations are called Odu.
The explanation for this theology would take a series of books and some years under qualified Elders along with the initiations which prepare the Ori for the receipt of this information. My little explanations do not do it justice.
Ask away Kresge and forgive me OA for answering this question for you.


Thanks Fagunwa...you answred better then I could have.....Sorry Kresge...I completely forgot about this thread....

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