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quote:
Originally posted by Rowe:

I was raised in a large city, and I guess I would take offense if a southerner assumed that I lacked morals simply because I don't go around cheesing at everyone in sight. I think those from the south should accept that customs will and do change from one location to the next. In the city, especially cities that are wrought with crime, going around smiling and acting silly is a sign of vulnerability. You put yourself at risk when people intending to do you harm suspects that you are "nice" and easy to manipulate.

Hmmmmmm.....

I suppose I would take offense if someone were to assume I lacked morals because they didn't follow my local customs..... however....

I could be mistaken.....

but I haven't suggested that (since you quoted me I assume you're referring to my post)...

I simply gave an account of a custom I was raised with....

I think that a well rounded individual should accept that customs change..... this is part of exposure to the world..... whether they're from the South.... or from the North....

also Rowe.... why do you associate smiling with being silly?

and one more thing...... one thing I learned living in DC is that yes, if you are a nice person a person whose led a hard life or one not used to pleasantries will try to take advantage of you.....

one learns to maneuver and still keep their pleasant personality.... and one learns that the person that does the preying is the one with the problem....


Peace,
Virtue
quote:
Originally posted by virtue:
Rowe.... why do you associate smiling with being silly? One learns to maneuver and still keep their pleasant personality.... and one learns that the person that does the preying is the one with the problem....
Peace,
Virtue


Why is smiling at people associated with having a "pleasant personality?" I don't have a pleasant personality simply because I don't speak to everybody? Growing up in DC, we judged people's personality based on whether or not they are trying to get something from us. If they weren't trying to swindle us, hustle us, or play games, then they had a pleasant personality. In the city, the people who DO smile at you are the ones you learn not to trust. People who smile and grin all in your face are the hustlers and the fake and phony people. I'm telling you had better stay away from those people.
I can't believe some of the things I'm reading.

I'm one of the women who usually doesn't hi back and even I know that every man that greets isn't sexually interested.

Many times a hi is just a hi. If that was universally understood, I wouldn't have to front to men on the street.

I was taught to hi by my mama, too, but things change once you grow tits.

My mom would never scold me for not saying hi back to a strange guy on the street today because she knows it's an invitation for harassment by some men now that I'm grown.

She goes through the same thing sometimes unfortunately.

And I don't make exceptions for a man just because he's attractive. I make exceptions once in a blue moon when I feel safe.

Sometimes I end up regretting it like the other day in the store. sck

It's not about being a feminist, trying to act like a man, attempting not to be emotional, or any of that.
I'm beginning to think Virtue is really onto something... about Northern migrations southward... and it's being illustrated by the current cultural misunderstanding with Rowe the City Girl... excuse me... Woman...

What happens when DC guys - who think eye contact and a smile mean sexual attraction - move southward - where eye contact and a smile are customary? And vice versa?
quote:
Originally posted by ma'am:
Many times a hi is just a hi. If that was universally understood, I wouldn't have to front to men on the street.

I was taught to hi by my mama, too, but things change once you grow tits.

My mom would never scold me for not saying hi back to a strange guy on the street today because she knows it's an invitation for harassment by some men now that I'm grown.

She goes through the same thing sometimes unfortunately.



Interestingly enough, though my Dad was raised in the projects of Southeast, DC, his family is from Memphis, TN. So he came to the city with very southern customs and mannerisms. Demonstrating grandiose acts of kindness like smiling and carrying on in public was and still is very important to him. Whenever he goes out in the street, he has to speak to everyone in sight. No one gets left out. If the person doesn't respond, he just goes on to the next person. He has to hold doors for all the ladies and the old people, ask folks how they day is going, and wave to every baby he sees. Growing up, my mother would say to my sisters and I, "Look at him, your father is so silly." Some people just like doing all that stuff. It makes them feel good I guess.
So far, all of the women who say they engage in this behavior (myself included) have said they do so out of a desire to shield themself from potentially dangerous or annoying/invasive men. Not because they were never taught manners or never taught to greet people, or living in the North vs. South, etc. And all of us have said that it is not something that we do all of the time in every single situation. Only that one has to think carefully beforehand about whether or not you want to put yourself in a position to have to have a potentially extended interaction with this person and that we do not make it a habit to engage everyone.

Why is this being discounted/skipped right over in favor of assumptions? I'm really bristling at the path of this thread where women who actually do it have explained why they do it, and then from nowhere we've jumped to casting aspersions about the lack of home training of women, etc. as "the logical conclusion" for this behavior. Wha?

I have to disagree with the characterization of those women who want to be men as espousing some kind of feminist ideal. The core of feminism is loving womanhood and fighting against those things and people that degrade and reduce womanhood down to something insignificant or trivial, not celebrating what it is to be a man or be like a man. A group of "feminists" doing something doesn't make it a feminist thing. The motivation you gave, V, puzzles me and I suspect the real core of it is survival/being keenly aware of danger/etc. But who knows?
quote:
Originally posted by Frenchy:
Why is this being discounted/skipped right over in favor of assumptions? I'm really bristling at the path of this thread where women who actually do it have explained why they do it, and then from nowhere we've jumped to casting aspersions about the lack of home training of women, etc. as "the logical conclusion" for this behavior. Wha?


My statements about the women in Athens, GA needing home-training was half serious. Brother Honestbrother understood that. That is why he included a smilie next to his statement. We're merely exploring a topic, not coming to any definite conclusion. I've already made the argument that simply because I don't walk around with a Joker grin on the daily does not make me an unpleasant person. But I appreciate your summarization of our discussion. It was very insightful.
Last edited {1}
quote:
Originally posted by Rowe:

[quote]Why is smiling at people associated with having a "pleasant personality?"

Because a smile is considered pleasant by most people I know.... and frankly in this culture.... that is why smiles are seen often in our entertainment and news..........


quote:
BuI don't have a pleasant personality simply because I don't speak to everybody?


I didn't accuse you of this.....

quote:
Growing up in DC, we judged people's personality based on whether or not they are trying to get something from us. If they weren't trying to swindle us, hustle us, or play games, then they had a pleasant personality. In the city, the people who DO smile at you are the ones you learn not to trust. People who smile and grin all in your face are the hustlers and the fake and phony people. I'm telling you had better stay away from those people.

I am aware of this.....

I find it sad....

In the sense that there is such a cultural disconnect that we judge each other too quickly ..... based off of a smile... or not....

But I find it sad that someone who smiles is considered artificial.... something's wrong with them... or they're out to get you..... where as a blank nonexpressioned face means sincerity....???

Yet..... Like I said.... I spent 12 years in DC.... but raised in Atlanta.... so I've experienced both.....

but I think my upbringing trumps my adult flight to DC.... I still prefer friends that easily smile... it feels natural....

I suppose it would feel just as natural if I were raised differently to be around those who were more reserved with their emotions....


By the way I sense an underlying hostility to those who feel freer with their emotions... is this because you grew up suspicious of them? You keep associating smiling with "silly" and "joker grin"....


cultural difference...


Peace,
Virtue
quote:
Originally posted by Frenchy:
So far, all of the women who say they engage in this behavior (myself included) have said they do so out of a desire to shield themself from potentially dangerous or annoying/invasive men. Not because they were never taught manners or never taught to greet people, or living in the North vs. South, etc. And all of us have said that it is not something that we do all of the time in every single situation. Only that one has to think carefully beforehand about whether or not you want to put yourself in a position to have to have a potentially extended interaction with this person and that we do not make it a habit to engage everyone.

I agree......

quote:
I have to disagree with the characterization of those women who want to be men as espousing some kind of feminist ideal. The core of feminism is loving womanhood and fighting against those things and people that degrade and reduce womanhood down to something insignificant or trivial, not celebrating what it is to be a man or be like a man. A group of "feminists" doing something doesn't make it a feminist thing. The motivation you gave, V, puzzles me and I suspect the real core of it is survival/being keenly aware of danger/etc. But who knows?


I like your definition of feminism..... but the way it has played out historically belies a different description....

to me....

because ultimately we would began to argue points of value....

don't want to that...

it would be nonproductive here.....

however... I understand your point.... you believe feminism to be an empowering term.... that embraces your womanhood.... I get that....

ummmm.... I reserve my opinion of the girls.... I was trying to be a mouthpiece for their opinion...... they claimed feminism.... and that's what it meant to them.....


Peace,
Virtue
quote:
Originally posted by Frenchy:
Why is this being discounted/skipped right over in favor of assumptions? I'm really bristling at the path of this thread where women who actually do it have explained why they do it, and then from nowhere we've jumped to casting aspersions about the lack of home training of women, etc. as "the logical conclusion" for this behavior. Wha?


Frenchy, I haven't forgotten you... I think there may be multiple things going on here... and not a single explanation.
quote:
Originally posted by Frenchy:

Why is this being discounted/skipped right over in favor of assumptions? I'm really bristling at the path of this thread where women who actually do it have explained why they do it, and then from nowhere we've jumped to casting aspersions about the lack of home training of women, etc. as "the logical conclusion" for this behavior. Wha?


Hmmmmm.....

Because being friendly to people is a skill usually taught at home..... usually by the mother.... in the South... it was a value.....

so since its disappearance....

one must ask what happened to this character trait....?

Well.... something that was once passed from mother to daughter is no longer done.... so I was trying explain why.....

Northerner's do not typically have this tradition..... especially in the cities.... as Rowe pointed out..... smiling and greeting strangers socially is seen as a threat..... since I've returned to Atlanta.... almost everyone I meet is from New York..... and I mean EVERYONE..... and most women find me either odd, acting white, too happy, from another country, or trying to steal their man...... never just friendly until they get to know me.......consequently this is not true of men.... I wanted to know what Rowe thought about this.... most men I meet from New York actually buy into the Southern Belle stereotype and seem to express their desire for this type of woman...... in our discussions there seems to be a need to run away from what they consider the hardened woman of the North (please refrain from throwing tomatoes at me too quickly..... I'm simply repeating what is told to me......) I only have my experiences..... so I'm sure there are different experiences from mine...... but since it seems to be a consistent sentiment I encounter and relevant to the topic, I thought I'd share it....

Ummmmm..... back to my original point.... Frenchy I was not attempting to place judgment on anyone....


Peace,
Virtue
Well here is my explaination...

Growing up in NY.........no one speaks, and its something you never think about doing, unless you move to the south, New York is crowded as hell. NY'ers are competitive, and that behavior is carried, in everything that we do.

Living in Florida....is different, people either smile or speak. (something i had to get use to...........and as i mentioned, young people dont speak, the older ones do)

My problem was since i grew up in NY, i've always had the 'mean mug'.....and had to learn to adjust. Its hard NOT to speak to someone older, that says hi, or smile.

I dont have a problem saying hi to 'anyone' that speaks, especially men. Since i travel so much.......I've just learned to respond respectfully, and keep it moving.

If i like you.......you'll get a warm smile and a hi. If i dont.....you'll get a short smile, and a stern hi.


It works for me... Big Grin
quote:
Originally posted by qty226:
I dont have a problem saying hi to 'anyone' that speaks, especially men. Since i travel so much.......I've just learned to respond respectfully, and keep it moving.

If i like you.......you'll get a warm smile and a hi. If i dont.....you'll get a short smile, and a stern hi.


It works for me... Big Grin



Smile I like this qty! This is the same conclusion I have come to......

its a reasonable and balanced solution....

I, too, speak when I feel it will be taken with the proper intention it was given.....

when I sense fear I retract and keep moving....

when I am unsure.... I give a nod, a brief smile and a very professional "hello" or "Good afternoon"....


and when a person is rude/ or propositioning me in an uncomfortable way..... I say nothing.... and move quickly...

but since I rarely encounter the negative.... perhaps because of the environment I like to keep myself in...... I am usually open, smiling and friendly.......


Peace,
Virtue
Most of the the intrenched population in DC is from the South, North Carolina, South Carolina, Virginia. I live in all sections of the city. One thing a southerner will learn about a black city like DC, is the people have no hospitality.If you talk to the older people they still carry the southern tradition , but the younger crowd is very rude and the youth growing up espeically in SE act like they have never heard of a thing called home training. No respect what so ever for their elders.
quote:
Originally posted by Black Viking:
Brothers, the responses on this thread are one of the reasons why I advocate ignoring strange women. If they have any interest in interaction, of any kind, they'll initiate it (usually with eye contact, at least).

Wise-man say...

It's always better to let them come to you. bsm


Blk viking-
good points. I personally ignore most 'strange' or 'strangers to me' black women on the street. I think it's just a sign of the times.

to HB -
You won't get the answer you are looking for here, esp. since the many of the women responding assuming that you are attempting to 'mack on' the women you are saying 'hello' to. I thought 'hello' was a pleasant greeting between two or more people...I guess i'm nuave. Please forgive me. Aren't Black women the same ones complaining about not being able to meeting 'decent' men. How can they meet new, decent men if a guy can't even say hello??

I think this all boils down to her attitude. T
quote:
Originally posted by RadioRaheem:
Please forgive me. Aren't Black women the same ones complaining about not being able to meeting 'decent' men. How can they meet new, decent men if a guy can't even say hello??

I think this all boils down to her attitude. T


I hear what the ladies are saying.... especially about the safety factor... and I wouldn't want people to do things that might put them at risk... but at the same time, for those of us brothas who are civilized and have no clue about what's going through your mind, the perception is that ya'll are really cold and unapproachable, especially when we get a better reaction from white women....(please note that I said 'perception' as opposed to 'reality' - my comment is not intended as a reproach or insult)


Not only do I not want to approach you on the streets... I'm less likely to want to approach you anywhere...

But that's just my opinion...
quote:
Originally posted by HonestBrother:

... but at the same time, for those of us brothas who are civilized and have no clue about what's going through your mind, the perception is that ya'll are really cold and unapproachable....


Not only do I not want to approach you on the streets... I'm less likely to want to approach you anywhere...

But that's just my opinion...


I feel you HB!

This is the unfortunate part about this issue. I could see the same woman in a setting where she feels comfortable speaking, but the first impression (which is tough to override) is of her rebuffing my cordial greeting in public. Now, I'm dismissive of her and she thinks I'm callous. And neither of us ever understood why the other person behaved the way they did.
HB....

I really tried hard, not to say this........but since you keep bringing it up....i will.

Black men/women have had a longgggggg history. We've hurt each other....and because of this, we have a very low tolerance towards certain behaviors.

White women, have never dealt with, (some) black men and their behavior.......a lot of them havent been hurt.......YET. (Although i do have college peers, that are now alone.....after the baby was born, need i say more?)

The bottom line is this.....white women will be more receptive towards your smiles, etc.

White women are the only ones, that are able to walk around....in society, without constantly being attacked.

Black men are attacked, black women.........and white men are attacked (for obvious reasons).

This may be the reason why, white women can walk around........smiling.

Im not attacking you........but this is truly something to think about.
quote:
Originally posted by qty226:
HB....

I really tried hard, not to say this........but since you keep bringing it up....i will.

Black men/women have had a longgggggg history. We've hurt each other....and because of this, we have a very low tolerance towards certain behaviors.

White women, have never dealt with, (some) black men and their behavior.......a lot of them havent been hurt.......YET. (Although i do have college peers, that are now alone.....after the baby was born, need i say more?)

The bottom line is this.....white women will be more receptive towards your smiles, etc.

White women are the only ones, that are able to walk around....in society, without constantly being attacked.

Black men are attacked, black women.........and white men are attacked (for obvious reasons).

This may be the reason why, white women can walk around........smiling.

Im not attacking you........but this is truly something to think about.


I hear you, Qty... I started this thread because I really wanted to try to understand this from your point of view. The responses have really made me think...
I may have shared this once before...

I had a conversation with a cousin years ago. We meet for drinks and dinner and were talking and catching up on what each had been up to...when he out of the blue asked, "oh, and what is up with the sisters these days". I didn't ask what do you mean I said, "do you mean why is it that when you see one they look at you like you owe them money"...He said "YA!...everywhere I go these days it's the same thing"

I have to ask do the black women respond to white men who speak to them with such venom? Probably not. And the reason is that from their experiencse and from the societal hype ...black men are predators. We are the enemy. We are potential rapists.

I lived down south for a few years in Georgia. And people did know how to speak back then. I don't think it's a migration issue but rather an overall societal one. Many men don't know how to act like they have home training or were not raised in a barn.

I would suggest that the brothers who don't understand why they are getting greeted with scowls from the sisters start paying attention to how brothers approach women...see how many are respectful and how many look at them and treat them like a piece of meat.
quote:
Originally posted by ddouble:
We get it now MidLifeMan - it's just saddening. The action speaks to the ladies' outlook on humanity & decency, especially how they view it in their brothers. Frown No one wants to be punished for someone else's actions and that's how it comes across from the general sentiment expressed here.


One solution: Don't take it personal......

Meet women who you find in and through your current circle.....

Continue to be pleasant.....

we notice.....


smile...

Peace,
Virtue
quote:
Originally posted by RadioRaheem:
to HB -
You won't get the answer you are looking for here, esp. since the many of the women responding assuming that you are attempting to 'mack on' the women you are saying 'hello' to. I thought 'hello' was a pleasant greeting between two or more people...I guess i'm nuave. Please forgive me. Aren't Black women the same ones complaining about not being able to meeting 'decent' men. How can they meet new, decent men if a guy can't even say hello??

I think this all boils down to her attitude. T


What the fuck???

I've already said that not every hi is a come-on and I'm one of the ones who doesn't make it a habit to respond. Roll Eyes

Several of you here must not have experienced frequent harassment just because you've made eye-contact or responded to a hello.

That's not a bad thing. It's rather fortunate.

But imagine what it's like for those of us who haven't been so lucky.

You claim Black women aren't finding decent men because we don't smile to strangers on the street?

We should open ourselves up to harassment for a date???

Ha. If all the men who said hi to us were decent we wouldn't have to front in the first place.

I'm from NY and I haven't seen a shortage a greetings in NYC.

My dad walks to work saying, "Hey, mon," to all the men along the way. My brothers are more "wazzah."

But none are unusual.

Actually I've been regarding it as one of those cultural differences between people in NYC (especially those in strongly ethnic neighborhoods) and people in the burbs.

My mom cracks up at the strange looks my dad gets Upstate. He gets that do I know you look.

And I can't believe this is an issue of men having more hometraining than women.

I was taught to greet myself.

I grew up knowing this is one of the those courtesies.

But I stopped because it increases harassment by the men who don't think hello is just a pleasant greeting between two people.

They seriously think that hello means I want you. And some get aggressive once you let them know that isn't the case.

I shouldn't have to forgo my sense of comfort just to comfort some stranger with a hello.

Understand where this comes from and don't take it personally when someone doesn't greet you.

Men can help a lot by simply saying something.

I've found that I can curse a sexually harassing man up and down and all that will do is either piss him off or get him raddling sorry excuses, but a man can just look at or nudge him and get him to stop.

I've even been apologized to after men have stuck up for me.

I think there is a generational element to this.

I feel comfortable saying hi back to older men because I've found that an older man who takes it as a flirt is an oddity.

But it's also only older men who I see telling other men to cool down.

That is probably why many in my generation of women won't smile back.

Because we have had more ugly experiences.

Someone asked if those of us who don't say hi to Black men do it to White men.

I don't say hi to any man unless my gut ruled it safe to. It doesn't matter the race.

Usually it's according to whether it's one of those areas rampant with harassment, whether he is far enough from me, whether he greeted the person in front of me, whether I recognize the face and things of that sort.

However the issue comes up a lot less with White men as they usually don't nod at me unless they are old or not from around here.

I could even initiate and get that head turn thing or they ask, "Don't I know you from somewhere?"

I don't think it's a part of the area's culture. At least not with younger White men (or women for that matter).

I'm more likely to hi back the old White guys as the old Black guys.

It's that generational understanding thing.

I'm not going to smile back just to seem warmer. I'm not going to focus and making men feel better with a smile by putting my feelings as a woman on the backburning.

Call it rude if yuh want, but don't expect me to change my attitude until things change.
quote:
Originally posted by qty226:
HB....

I really tried hard, not to say this........but since you keep bringing it up....i will.

Black men/women have had a longgggggg history. We've hurt each other....and because of this, we have a very low tolerance towards certain behaviors.

White women, have never dealt with, (some) black men and their behavior.......a lot of them havent been hurt.......YET. (Although i do have college peers, that are now alone.....after the baby was born, need i say more?)

The bottom line is this.....white women will be more receptive towards your smiles, etc.

White women are the only ones, that are able to walk around....in society, without constantly being attacked.

Black men are attacked, black women.........and white men are attacked (for obvious reasons).

This may be the reason why, white women can walk around........smiling.

Im not attacking you........but this is truly something to think about.


......."Black men are attacked, black women.........and white men are attacked (for obvious reasons).

This may be the reason why, white women can walk around........smiling......"


Something about this part of your statement is so profound, and true; and for the life if me,I cannot say why. Years ago on the show, 'In Living Color', there was a character, played by the show's only white female cast member. In her many skits, this particular character was always out with her Black girl friend, whose character was somewhat surly but hopeful, as they were out cruising for guys; the white female character was this persona, who was extremely giddy, happy, 'free-spirited', and who screamed a lot, when happily expressing things that made her even more excited. Now of course most American white females are not like that character, but, that character sort of captured what most men and others see when they view white women; especially young(ish) (16-35) white women. That persona, or the extremely fast walking 'gotta get there' white woman. Men are attracted to that. I remember once, one of my associates, who was dating a policeman, who happened to be a white man; told her that she was 'his first' Black woman. She asked him why he had not dated a Black woman prior to her, and his answer was that, 'you(meaning he) can see the Black woman's misery' all over her, but especially in her face, at the mall, at bus stops, on trains etc. My friend was a 'giddy' acting Black woman, and he liked that.
quote:
What the fuck???

I've already said that not every hi is a come-on and I'm one of the ones who doesn't make it a habit to respond. Roll Eyes

Several of you here must not have experienced frequent harassment just because you've made eye-contact or responded to a hello.

That's not a bad thing. It's rather fortunate.

But imagine what it's like for those of us who haven't been so lucky.

You claim Black women aren't finding decent men because we don't smile to strangers on the street?

We should open ourselves up to harassment for a date???

Ha. If all the men who said hi to us were decent we wouldn't have to front in the first place.

I'm from NY and I haven't seen a shortage a greetings in NYC.

My dad walks to work saying, "Hey, mon," to all the men along the way. My brothers are more "wazzah."

But none are unusual.

Actually I've been regarding it as one of those cultural differences between people in NYC (especially those in strongly ethnic neighborhoods) and people in the burbs.

My mom cracks up at the strange looks my dad gets Upstate. He gets that do I know you look.

And I can't believe this is an issue of men having more hometraining than women.

I was taught to greet myself.

I grew up knowing this is one of the those courtesies.

But I stopped because it increases harassment by the men who don't think hello is just a pleasant greeting between two people.

They seriously think that hello means I want you. And some get aggressive once you let them know that isn't the case.

I shouldn't have to forgo my sense of comfort just to comfort some stranger with a hello.

Understand where this comes from and don't take it personally when someone doesn't greet you.

Men can help a lot by simply saying something.

I've found that I can curse a sexually harassing man up and down and all that will do is either piss him off or get him raddling sorry excuses, but a man can just look at or nudge him and get him to stop.

I've even been apologized to after men have stuck up for me.

I think there is a generational element to this.

I feel comfortable saying hi back to older men because I've found that an older man who takes it as a flirt is an oddity.

But it's also only older men who I see telling other men to cool down.

That is probably why many in my generation of women won't smile back.

Because we have had more ugly experiences.

Someone asked if those of us who don't say hi to Black men do it to White men.

I don't say hi to any man unless my gut ruled it safe to. It doesn't matter the race.

Usually it's according to whether it's one of those areas rampant with harassment, whether he is far enough from me, whether he greeted the person in front of me, whether I recognize the face and things of that sort.

However the issue comes up a lot less with White men as they usually don't nod at me unless they are old or not from around here.

I could even initiate and get that head turn thing or they ask, "Don't I know you from somewhere?"

I don't think it's a part of the area's culture. At least not with younger White men (or women for that matter).

I'm more likely to hi back the old White guys as the old Black guys.

It's that generational understanding thing.

I'm not going to smile back just to seem warmer. I'm not going to focus and making men feel better with a smile by putting my feelings as a woman on the backburning.

Call it rude if yuh want, but don't expect me to change my attitude until things change.

Let it go, my darling. If it's not understood by this point, after all the many times and ways it's been said, it's because people do not want to understand, do not want to change their preconceived notions, "aren't trying to hear it." Wink

People are apparently much more comfortable making villains out of us.
quote:
Originally posted by Frenchy:

Let it go, my darling. If it's not understood by this point, after all the many times and ways it's been said, it's because people do not want to understand, do not want to change their preconceived notions, "aren't trying to hear it." Wink

People are apparently much more comfortable making villains out of us.




You might be surprised about who has heard what...
quote:
Originally posted by TruEssence:
I totally agree with you! Smile This is how I am normally approached by men. I speak to everyone who approach me. But like the women have said alot of men take it as flirting when I am just being friendly. Either way I still speak. But there are men who I have spoken to that have dissed me after I have smiled and said hello.
A couple of weeks ago while I was walking on campus a brotha was coming in the direction I was. I smile and spoke right away. He ignored me and keep walking as if I had not said anything! I was like okay what was that about. I am thinking brotha I was not hitting on you just trying to be polite!
Said nothing??!! WOW!! What was that all about??!! Are you sure that "brother" did not have a certain "swish & sweetness" to him?? Maybe it was the eye in the center of your forehead that scared him off!! lol
quote:
Originally posted by Rowe:
quote:
Originally posted by HonestBrother:
Rowe, I'm not sure if you're from the south.. but in the southern states it is traditional to greet those who you pass... So if you're in a southen city, it REALLY stands out when black women systematically resist this custom.

My question was not at all about mating behavior...


I'm not discounting your geographical explanation. There could be many reasons why some men do not get the responses from women that they desire. Other men could have a completely different experience with women, however. I doubt that men who are unusually attractive has this problem. Let's just keep it real. Women will smile back at men who they find attractive. I've done it. If I find a brother attractive, and he's giving me the stare down, I will let him know that I'm interested. Believe me.

Women know the difference between platonic greetings and greetings that express interest.


I should add that when I am in a big city I don't expect people to meet my gaze or return my smile... I know better than to go around smiling at folk... In NYC (the big city I'm most familiar with) I know how to negotiate the social dynamics... I also know when women (black, yellow, purple, or tan) are interested Wink ... In the city, I can take care of mine cabbage
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Originally posted by RadioRaheem:
Aren't Black women the same ones complaining about not being able to meeting 'decent' men. How can they meet new, decent men if a guy can't even say hello??


Women want decent men who they also find attractive. Being "decent" and "Black" are not the only two qualities that women look for in men. And a woman can't be certain that a man is "decent" simply he has the ability to smile, for a liar can smile just as easily and readily as a honest person. Moreover, and I've mentioned this before, I seriously doubt that men who are attractive must deal with this problem of being constantly dissed and overlooked by women. Like men, women in general will respond (sometimes even more strongly) to people they find attractive. I find it interesting, however, that whenever I introduce this reality, I get told that "this topic has nothing to do with the dynamics of mating," when clearly it does.
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Originally posted by virtue:
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I mean EVERYONE..... and most women find me either odd, acting white, too happy, from another country, or trying to steal their man...... never just friendly until they get to know me.......consequently this is not true of men.... I wanted to know what Rowe thought about this.... most men I meet from New York actually buy into the Southern Belle stereotype.


The "Southern Belle" represents what to a lot men a woman should be. When we think of a Southern Belle we imagine a woman who is very docile, meek, ultra feminine, submissive, and traditional. A lot men have been brainwashed into believing these are the characeristics that make an ideal woman. Thus, those women who fail to demonstrate these characteristics are deemed as undesirable because of their "agresssiveness." It's no coicidence that Black women are negatively characterized and depicted in the media as being the opposite of this narrow conception of womanhood, since Black women are capable of producing more Black people. I don't usually like to engage in conspiratory discussions, but I think making this segment of the American population seem ugly and undesirable while at the same time criminalizing the Black male has helped the movement to destroy the Black family tremendously.
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Originally posted by Rowe:
I find it interesting, however, that whenever I introduce this reality, I get told that "this topic has nothing to do with the dynamics of mating," when clearly it does.


The motivation for introducing the topic did have less to do with the dynamics of mating behavior... Unless you're in a place like DC where people really only look at people they find attractive.... but if you're in the south where greeting those you pass is commonplace and expected, the phenomenon is noticeable - and by the way I'm not bad on the eyes - so I know that doesn't have a whole lot to do with it.
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Originally posted by AudioGuy:
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Originally posted by TruEssence:
I totally agree with you! Smile This is how I am normally approached by men. I speak to everyone who approach me. But like the women have said alot of men take it as flirting when I am just being friendly. Either way I still speak. But there are men who I have spoken to that have dissed me after I have smiled and said hello.
A couple of weeks ago while I was walking on campus a brotha was coming in the direction I was. I smile and spoke right away. He ignored me and keep walking as if I had not said anything! I was like okay what was that about. I am thinking brotha I was not hitting on you just trying to be polite!
Said nothing??!! WOW!! What was that all about??!! Are you sure that "brother" did not have a certain "swish & sweetness" to him?? Maybe it was the eye in the center of your forehead that scared him off!! lol

Cool Whatever the reason was it just showed me that some people be in their own zone. To me it is all about adjusting. Coming from the south I learned that real quick. There will be people who will not feel me. I adjust and move on...
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Originally posted by Frenchy:
Let it go, my darling. If it's not understood by this point, after all the many times and ways it's been said, it's because people do not want to understand, do not want to change their preconceived notions, "aren't trying to hear it." Wink

People are apparently much more comfortable making villains out of us.


Point taken.
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Originally posted by Rowe:
..... I think Honestbrother really wants to know is why don't women initiate greetings. Why do men have to offer greetings first. The answer is gender socialization. Women are socialized to be chased, not to be the chasers. Going around smiling at men is chaser behavior, and in some traditional sense, the behavior of loose women......


Sexism in our society says: It is not proper for women to initiate greetings. These are the invisible handcuffs of social detainment that arrest and silence the full sexual expression of women.

Contrary to a woman's innate feelings and natural inclinations, deeply ingrained social concepts limit her individual right and freedom to assert sexual interest, regardless of feelings of attraction and loneliness, she is to remain mute and inhibited.

Like all social ideology, this is also a means of control (fueled by a belief system of irrational insecurities) to maintain an uneven balance of power by keeping one gender strong, proactive and dominant, the other weak, reactive and submissive. The linguistic suppression is evident in our vocabulary. The synonyms of the word aggressive have positive denotations while the synonyms of the word passive have negative denotations.

As long as there is sexist stigma attached to the sexual boldness of women, you will never see balance; just male/female, expression/constraint, free will/restriction when it comes to who does the initiating.
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Originally posted by detroit1:
Sexism in our society says: It is not proper for women to initiate greetings. These are the invisible handcuffs of social detainment that arrest and silence the full sexual expression of women.

Contrary to a woman's innate feelings and natural inclinations, deeply ingrained social concepts limit her individual right and freedom to assert sexual interest, regardless of feelings of attraction and loneliness, she is to remain mute and inhibited.

Like all social ideology, this is also a means of control (fueled by a belief system of irrational insecurities) to maintain an uneven balance of power by keeping one gender strong, proactive and dominant, the other weak, reactive and submissive. The linguistic suppression is evident in our vocabulary. The synonyms of the word aggressive have positive denotations while the synonyms of the word passive have negative denotations.

As long as there is sexist stigma attached to the sexual boldness of women, you will never see balance; just male/female, expression/constraint, free will/restriction when it comes to who does the initiating.


Great observation.
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Originally posted by Rowe:
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Originally posted by virtue:
Many reasons.... especially now that I'm back I can see a stark difference...

**influx of northerners bringing their mores....
** lax parenting in general.....
**feminist negative coloring of the practice....
**culture that's male dominated (including hip hop).... where "courtesies" are seen as weak or white...
**no continuity in learning... (read--not as much intergenerational transference of culture)


I was raised in a large city, and I guess I would take offense if a southerner assumed that I lacked morals simply because I don't go around cheesing at everyone in sight. I think those from the south should accept that customs will and do change from one location to the next. In the city, especially cities that are wrought with crime, going around smiling and acting silly is a sign of vulnerability. You put yourself at risk when people intending to do you harm suspects that you are "nice" and easy to manipulate. In these hostile environments, being "friendly" will get your ass killed. Therefore, both women and men existing in these environments learn at a very early age that they must put on their "mug face" just so no one will try to jack them up. That's just reality.



And not only that, Americans in general tend to say hello to strangers more than lets say the French.

People often say French are mean and snobby, merely because they are reserved. Cultural differences in greeting does not mean one lacks morals.

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