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Kresge, I Thought about it.
And about 'empathy', again. I am not religious and never was, so I can only theorize. I realize, that religion and belief can be very powerful. When Europeans started to 'follow this order' subdue the earth, and they thought this is a right (even some sort of obligation?), why should such people even question what they are doing?
I found an article, saying, that this attitude of 'othering' nature and life started somewhat in the medieval age. So a quite long time for passing on the tradition of feeling superior.
In another thread you talked about memes, 'traditions', and religion is also a very strong tradition. The Pope with his "silently longing for Christianity"-attitude, this, what he said so blatant is something I believe many whites still think, religious or not. People and nature waiting for the 'white savior', European behavior as if earth and all living and non-living on it belongs to us.
And perhaps, with thinking about this 'religious order' I can somewhat understand the notion of civilization. Also something we Western nations believe to be, a civil civilization. We believe, that we are always better than all the 'others'. The center of the world. We started polluting earth with the industrial revolution, but are quick today to point our fingers on all other nations who are starting with industrialization. We, again, the (paternalistic) educators, while continuing with all our own wrongs.
In many whites this seems to be a automatic reflex, a trained and never questioned behavior: Immediatey shifting away from the own issues and blaming others = feeling better, because then we can be the educators.

I guess I am having a hard time with the assertion of "most". I certainly believe that this may become the case with the spread of global capitalism and the commodification of basically everything, including other human beings, but I would assert that such a disconnect probably does not yet exist for indigenous peoples around the world, or perhaps a more accurate/appropriate way of saying it might be those cultures that are basically still pre-modern.

You are not the only one with having a hard time with the assertion of 'most'. It is the thinking, that Europeans/whiteness is the center of the world, as well as our way of living. To tell for example the about 198 million people, who suffer from chronic hunger=are starving, that they are disconnected from nature, is tough, I would say.
It is this notion 'we are one world, we all have to work together' without realizing, that it is still white supremacy what is in power and causes the most problems, directly or indirectly, globally. That it is our own culture, we whites/Europeans have to change.
Firefly, you still didn't answer the question, why, in your way of thinking, Oshun Auset and Kalliqa used white supremacy rule as excuse. Excuse for what? Your direct response with "what's China's excuse' makes it clear, that you reject white supremacy dominance as main reason.

The planet's & earth's plants. Happy? Then again, if I plant a tree - and I've planted many trees - is it my tree? Or yours? Where's the grammar book. I most probably planted it to share it...

no, not 'happy', because your answer is a childlike one, without reflection of this what you are saying. When you feel it necessary to claim that you plant trees, to 'justify' your 'our nature' statement, this only demonstrates your lack of understanding. It means nothing, how many trees you plant to 'share them' (shall we say thank you for it?), as long as white supremacy is about destruction. You can't 'heal' it with planting a few trees. Even if your little world wants to see it that way. But I guess, that you still don't understand white supremacy, too.
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Posted August 15, 2007 03:44 PM
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Kresge, because you know so much about religion (and I almost nothing): I think also Christianity has to do with the European disconnection from life? This sentence 'subdue planet earth' 'Mach dir die Erde untertan' (I don't know the correct English term for it), was used in many ways to just exploit and destroy. This feeling of having the right to do so.

Everything can be taken from a man but one thing: the last of the human freedoms - to choose one's attitude in any given set of circumstances, to choose one's own way. (V. Frankl)

fro Listener....sometimes you catch me off guard with your insight....your way of seeing things...that up there ^ was real good about man's disconnection from life and how he uses [his] spirituality to justify destroying "planet earth" for his own selfish satisfication and comfort. As if it were his right. Wow! Amazing. I never quite saw it that way....well until now. fro

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