Skip to main content

quote:
(of course Pace or Empty will come along and say they don't trust the story because it is from Fox News but will never look to another source to validate it.)
Silly ass... You could just as easily find another source. But having anything approaching a desire to present unbiased info. or having some actual INTEGRITY is too much for the oft moralizing CONservatives.

Hell, your PUNK ASS is half-scared to claim you're conservative on this board perceiving it (the term or ideology itself) to have some "baggage" that your own empty ass rhetoric and ineptitude haven't create on their own. But, when you're into "White Boy"-think... what can we expect but a "White Boy's" mentality complete with all the White rhetoric and insecurities?
quote:
Originally posted by Constructive Feedback:

If this is so then please tell me by what authority did the United Nations have in imposing economic sanctions upon Iraq?


This is how it starts -- it being the conversational rathole. You don't realize the fallacy of your question, because you don't realize the shallowness of your thought processes. The US did not impose economic sanctions on its own authority. It went through the UN. Now that's it on the subject of sanctions. You have to be constrained because you have conversational ADD.

quote:
What FORMAL IRAQI GOVERNMENT CHANNEL has asked "the United States to depart their country"?


Nonsensical. The guerilla warfare is ongoing, that is your clue that you are not wanted in another peoples' nation. Additionally, we went in and destroyed the governing body of Iraq and criminalized the Baathists (at least at first). Nonetheless, of the US-sanctioned leaders of the three groups, at least one of them has stated the US needs to get its ass gone!!

quote:
Iraq Foreign Minister Makes Plea For Continued Japanese Presence
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,176676,00.html

(of course Pace or Empty will come along and say they don't trust the story because it is from Fox News but will never look to another source to validate it.)


There are double the amount of sources you can name that say the Iraqi people want the US out of their country.

quote:
So Isome - do you think that the Iraqi people don't realize that under Saddam they only had one candidate to vote and that you had to be a member of the Baath Party to receive resources that allow you to survive?


Don't ask me that stupid question.Saddam was a dictator. Do you think you were being profound by stating the obvious?

quote:
Certainly not everyone agrees with the government but the same is the case within the United States.


The ends does not justify the means! You don't liberate a people by killing tens of thousands of them with shock and awe, and then participating in the torture of others and condoning the torture of yet still more. That is not the institution of democracy, which comes from within, not without.

Watch CSPAN. Stay away from faux news.

quote:
As we debate on and on it is clear that you are able to discard many of the principles that you claim to stand behind depending on the context of the situation.


We're not debating. There are rules to debate and you do not know the first rule. So keep your snide commentary to yourself and try to stick to the issue.

quote:
The fact that so many thousands of people died during the sanctions was no justificiation to realize that they were not working and a new strategy was needed to have Saddam provably comply with the UN sanctions allowing for comprehensive inspections.


We'll put aside the near incomprehensible structure of that comment and address the fact that you are again stating irrelevant information, and repeating the false rationale for war that has been disproven time and again. Stop watching faux news. They're not telling you the truth and neither did Bush.

The inspectors were in Iraq. The US ordered the inspectors out so they could begin bombing. Do you really believe the lie that he wouldn't let them in?

Stop watching faux news, stick with CSPAN, it's straight video, no commentary or pundits to get in the way.

quote:
I think that it is best for you to tell us what YOU DO BELIEVE IN first before we go through real world examples that highlight the execptions that you have to your core principles.


I think it is best for you to stick to the topic and stop trying to pull people into your ratholes. Especially in light of your repeating such a stupid lie that everybody with half a brain knows by now is not true.

quote:
Your analogy is flawed.

No I think I am quite consistent.


Yes, your analogies are consistently flawed... hopelessly flawed.

quote:
I have a consistent view on not turning a blind eye to the suffering of people by the use of POLICY to impose upon them.


You have consistently parroted the conservative viewpoint and had no ability to counter rebuttals.

quote:
The UN sanctions were applied too long and they had thousands and thousands of people to die as Saddam was being "smoked out". There was no new government in place after 10 years of sanctions.


Saddam's government was in place after 10 years of sanctions. Intellectual integrity... get some.

quote:
This war - despite the costs of American lives and American dollars has brought an end to the era of sanctions and has offered the people of Iraq a chance to govern themselves.


This war has killed tens of thousands of Iraqis, garnered one election (which does not a democracy make) and with the use of DU weaponry, will undoubtedly affect many more long after the fighting has ceased. We have no moral authority and democracy is not instituted at the point of a gun. Iraqis, on the whole want the US out.

You cannot disprove that.

quote:
It is quite true that they may squander this opportunity, bowing down to the pressure of the insurgents living among them. Sadly though these were the same people who had been oppressing their own people during the years of sanctions.


It is quite true that a sovereign nation has its own ideas on how it will be run, whether we like it or not. Cultural arrogance is not cultural superiority. Don't believe what white people tell you, they're not truthful.

quote:
Now you appear to suggest that we should be listening to their demands for us to withdraw rather than the pleas of the people who know what will happen if we leave too soon before the government is able to defend itself.


What people? Chalabi? He was in exile for decades. He's not representative.

We have refused to allow another nation to take the lead on peacekeeping. If we did that a real coaltion could ensure their safety. We are a lightening rod for violence and need to get the hell out of there. Did you not know we refused to allow another nation to take the lead, or were you under the impression that no one would take the lead?
    In big peacekeeping missions, the United Nations usually takes the lead and covers most costs of sending troops. In this case, the Bush Administration did not want to surrender its lead role to the UN, so it had little choice but to build and underwrite the peacekeeping coalition itself.

    A defence analyst at the Brookings Institution, Michael O'Hanlon, assessed that it might cost the US $250 million to fund the estimated 20,000 troops for the next year.

Because we are hell-bent on maintaining ultimate control over the region, in 2003 India refused Chimpy's request for 17,000 peacekeeping troops because he refused to allow the U.N. to head the operation. The result was that in total, the alleged "coalition of the willing" was little more than a few militarily-weak nations sending a few hundred troops, "on a mission that is straining the powers of 148,000 top-notch American soldiers."

So much for righteous declarations of spreading democracy and self-serving recitations of all that Iraq did not have under Saddam; if those were the true motivations, abdicating the lead role for a lesser one would have been done expeditiously and with grace.

We should go!
Last edited {1}
:: Article Excerpt ::
    The Sunni can't take Baghdad. They can't penetrate the main Kurdish and Shia areas. How exactly is the US military preventing a civil war at the moment? The refusal of the Shia to retaliate is the most important factor here and this is primarily the result of Grand Ayatollah Ali al-Sistani standing firmly against it.

    Now suppose Sistani calls for a withdrawal? Then the US and Britain will have little choice but to go, probably over an 18 month period. This very week, incidentally, a gathering in Cairo of Sunni, Shiite, and Kurdish leaders (under the auspices of the Arab League) called for a timetable for US withdrawal and also said that Iraq's opposition had a "legitimate right to resistance." The Sunni are not going to stop fighting while the occupation continues. The quid pro quo for the US leaving would presumably be a ceasefire by the Sunni and an end to suicide bombing attacks.

    What Cole [Juan] is recommending is very similar to what the British did in Iraq after the rebellion of 1920. They relied on airpower and "Bomber Harris", the man in charge of the RAF effort made no effort to conceal that he was going after civilians and their villages. ...

We should go!
:: Another Blast from the Past ::
    In the 1920's when spying for the British, in another ultimately ill fated Mesopotamian adventure, Gertrude Bell wrote of the Iraqis: " .. The enterprise, the rigors, the courage ..." In spite of all, it is still undiminished. The US-driven embargo killed as many as Pol Pot and this has been Iraq's Year Zero, but the coalition of the arm twisted and unwilling is unraveling and - as throughout history - the invaders will have to leave and Iraq, will once again, rebuild.
Those with imperialist leanings have trouble processing inconvenient facts, when they are able to recognize them, and they should invest as much time in learning about the cultures they wish to subjugate, errrr, liberate as much as they do in defending their goal. The western world created the idea of an independent self, which is the opposite of how self is defined in Islam. Self, to Muslims, is not a private notion encompassing only the individual, it is defined by its intrapersonal actions and obligations to other members of society. As a result, our ideas of democracy and self-determination will not fit their society because their idea of self is not the same as ours.

Despite all the rah rah jingoism of America the peaceful, we do not value true diplomacy. The consequence is a muddled yet vehement support of war (and/or pro-longing this one) among some Americans. Greater curiosity (as opposed to being incurious) and a willingness to see the wide-angle view of the crisis we created is required before Americans will place this invasion in the proper context of moral behavior.
Last edited {1}
The former prime minister of Iraq, Iyad Allawi, claims that human rights abuses in Iraq are as bad today as they were under Saddam Hussein. During an interview with the Observer newspaper of London he said "We are hearing about secret police, secret bunkers where people are being interrogated. A lot of Iraqis are being tortured or killed in the course of interrogations."

We should go!
Isome wrote:
quote:
they should invest as much time in learning about the cultures they wish to subjugate, errrr, liberate as much as they do in defending their goal. The western world created the idea of an independent self, which is the opposite of how self is defined in Islam. Self, to Muslims, is not a private notion encompassing only the individual, it is defined by its intrapersonal actions and obligations to other members of society. As a result, our ideas of democracy and self-determination will not fit their society because their idea of self is not the same as ours.


"If you know the enemy and know yourself, you need not fear the result of a hundred battles. If you know yourself but not the enemy, for every victory gained you will also suffer a defeat." - Sun Tzu

umbrarchist
quote:
Originally posted by umbrarchist:
"If you know the enemy and know yourself, you need not fear the result of a hundred battles. If you know yourself but not the enemy, for every victory gained you will also suffer a defeat." - Sun Tzu


I love Sun Tzu in that it can be used as an allegorical reference for simply navigating the workplace!

When it comes to our invasion of Iraq, I like USMC General Smedley Butler's quote:

"War is a racket!"

Smile
::George Bush, Meet Reality::

article excerpt from the Village Voice
    President Bush's speech this morning at the Naval Academy is a reflection of his stubborn, narrow-vision approach to governing. More and more, what he says is devoid of reality. To listen to Bush is to enter a dreamworld.

    Faced with incontrovertible facts of increasing costs ($6 billion a month), soldier deaths day after day(2,100), growing disenchantment in Congress (The Senate is demanding periodic reports on how the war is faring), the failure of the Iraqi security forces to protect the country, all signs of a coming defeat, he keeps on keeping on with pledges of total victory. He won't set "artificial deadlines" for withdrawal. "No war has ever been won on a timetable - and neither will this one," the National Strategy for Victory in Iraq says.

    "These decisions about troop levels will be driven by the conditions on the ground in Iraq and the good judgment of our commanders, not by artificial timetables set by politicians in Washington," Bush said in his followup address.

    Bush's swaggering style reinforces his image and that of the country of being a bully and, worse, a loser.

    "America will not run in the face of car bombers and assassins so long as I am your commander-in-chief," says Bush, the man who squirmed his way out of Vietnam duty.

    ...

    Much of this present--and long overdue talk of an actual strategy for Iraq began with the pre-Thanksgiving call by Representative John Murtha to begin withdrawing troops from Iraq. Murtha, ...

    And then came the smacks from conservative Democrats, like Connecticut senator Joe Lieberman. In the Wall Street Journal, Lieberman argued, "I am convinced almost all of the progress in Iraq and throughout the Middle East will be lost if those forces are withdrawn faster than the Iraqi military is capable of securing the country." He added that he was disappointed by "Democrats focusing on how President Bush took America into the war in Iraq almost three years ago, and by Republicans who are more worried about whether the war will bring them down in next November's elections than they are concerned about how we continue the progress in Iraq in the months and years ahead."

    ...

    All of this seems removed from reality, in which the U.S. can't guarantee security and its allies in the Iraqi military are commonly viewed as U.S. puppets sent out to conduct torture. The Iraqis want the U.S. out.

    Most of all, Bush himself and his strategy statement omit oil, a major reason--if not the only reason--for invading Iraq to begin with. And here the U.S. is on the verge of executing a total takeover of the once nationalized industry, turning it instead into a privatized business to be run by the big international companies--descendants of the original oil companies that colonized Iraq to begin with.

Add Reply

Post
×
×
×
×
Link copied to your clipboard.
×