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[rant]
I was born in Compton and moved to Watts when I was a small child, where I have lived sinced. There is much beauty here, but also a lot of stuff no one wants to deal with: gang violence, failing schools, high unemployment and crime rates, filthy neighborhoods. From a fairly young age, I promised myself that I would do well in school and get a high-paying job so that I could afford to leave South Central and live in a better area. So far I'm getting close--one more semester and I'll have my BA degree. But for the last few years, a question has been nagging me: can I do more good just staying put?

I used to get very angry at the people who always told me to "remember my roots and help my community". Remeber my roots!?! Oh, I'll remember being mercilessly picked on and assaulted for daring to do well in school and be a decent person, I thought. I also wondered why I had to help my "community"; if I could help myself, why couln't anyone else? If they can't-- or won't--how is that my problem?

In the last few years I've become something of a Black nationalists and separatist (can't believe I was actually a Bush supporter in High school! What the hell was I smoking??? God, I'm gonna get some bad karma for that!). I spend much time thinking on how I can help improve the Black American community. Which does more good for a community--staying put with your affluence and trying to invest, or moving away but donating money and time to help?

Staying seems to have so many inherent dangers. I want to live where I won't be afraid to walk down the street in broad daylight, where police helicopters aren't flying around every single night, where people aren't harrassed at train stations by teenagers (who should be in school) hustling for money, where my property won't be vandalized b/c some jackasses with their pants around their knees think its fun. I want my children to not have to be afraid when they go to school, or stuck in an overcrowded class with incompetent teachers. When I look at areas like Watts, I sometimes wonder how I could possibly make any difference.

At the same time, I can't see how moving to the suburbs will actually help. I'm tired of passing store after store owned by jews, Koreans, and Arabs,and having them treat their Black clientel like crap. Sometimes I have this burning urge to create my own neighborhood stores--which won't sell alcohol--get a seat on the city council, invest in community outreach programs, heck, maybe even parter up with a likeminded individual to create clean, gated middle-class areas within the midst of Watts as a form of revitalization.

I don't know, I'm really confused on the issue. What do you guys think?
[/rant]
Original Post
...Indeed Black people need to stay and try to rebuild our own communities, and if this is not in the mix, the Black community will be facing extinction, sooner than realized.

Such a task must start with our own church community, professional community, men, women, and those with the most assets, and/or our own elected representatives. If our own elected representatives truly served the Black community, the constructive influence used would make the inner-city our own "Heaven on Earth". By and large these individual have the resources and influence that a lone individual of lesser means would not have.

.......for this course of action to work though, Black people must be more honest with each other, and stop all this back door cut throat self destructive back stabbing, sleazy, evil, truly selfish, and/or treasonous activity. This counter-productive activity more than anything else is making it exceedingly difficult for Black people to trust each other, have faith in each other, and is a very poor signal to send out to the many young people out there, who cry out for just one opportunity in a chance and constructive direction to make something of themselves.

...no other ethnic group is going to fill the void that Black people should be filling, and/or must be promoting for each other. Generally speaking, those who bear the cross, by and large, wear the crown.

In the event the Hispanics, Koreans, etc., take risks to invest in the "inner-city" it is to move their own people forward, and not Black people. Should you doubt this, which it is certain from what you have shared, Hispanics, Koreans, Arabs, Caucasians, Chinese, Filipinos, etc., etc., tend to look out for their own interests, first and foremost.

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I can't tell you what is right for you, but I can share an experience I shared with the board long ago.

http://africanamerica.org/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/791602...196060451#3196060451

quote:
was born and raised in the Central area of Cleveland, OH. It was then and continues to be one of the poorest sections of the city and had all the problems that you have mentioned, crime, absentee landlords, absentee parents ...

At the age of 15, my parents purchased a home in a "better" section of town. I was encouraged to go to school and then college so that I could escape the ghetto. Upon my graduation, I returned to the Central area. I purchased and rehabbed home about four blocks from where I was raised. All of my childhood and college friends were convinved that I had lost my mind. Here was a young Black college educated and gainfully employed man that chose to live on a street that was surrounded on three sides by projects and/or vacant lots, in a community that had the lowest per capita income of anywhere in the state ...


Actually, the link is below my post.
I think as soon as you use the word flee you have put leaving in a negative light.

It is your life. Helping others is good but if many of them are doing their best to drag you down, you have to decide how you want to live your life. I say forget the guilt trip.

I thought telling people about good books on the internet would be so easy and theoretically could be so productive. In almost 7 years I have had ONE person come back and say he had checked out a book I recommended and told other people on Black Voices they should read it.

I don't know exactly what your situation is but fighting uphill battles is one thing and being stabbed in the back while you try to do it is another.

umbrarchist
uppity...that's a great question and a really tough question.

Perhaps ask yourself what can you achieve if you stay?

Even if it is only one small thing. Perhaps set a time frame to achieve it.

And consider HOW can you fix what you feel needs attention - do you have the skills and experience?

Ask the people in the area what it is they want fixed - and then consider if you are the person to do it - sometimes we think we know what needs fixing, and that isn't always at the top of others' agenda.

I imagine you are finding it hard to know whether if you choose to leave (even if only to short-term to gain some distance and perspective), whether you will indeed return (life is like that)? Noone knows that.

I wish you well in your decision-making.

I don't think the nagging feeling is guilt... I think it is a sign of maturity and willingness to make a positive difference in people's lives with the knowledge you've gained. That is fantastic.

Sometimes people find a way to achieve great things before they even realise it.

umbrarchist said something about people not responding to his recommendations on books... it's worth reflecting that one book may have had a profound effect on that one person, or perhaps someone they in turn told.... The fact is, the wind scatters these positive 'seeds' and 'we' never know quite where they will end up, if they bear fruit, and who will be nourished by them. But somewhere, someone is.
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Leaving that community does not mean you are abandoning the need to 'give back'. There are other communities in other places.

Feed yourself first, then you can 'give back'.

I never occurred to me to stay where I was raised. For my time, the town I lived in was considered the worst in the county, and possibly leading the list for all of Western Pennsylvania.

My goal was a paycheck. I was willing to leave wherever that was happening.

After living in two locations, my wife insisted, and agreed, we would actively seek to get involved in community volunteerism in our next location.

We did, and we are still here.

You do what you can when you can.

Nothing says you have to diminish yourself to help others.

PEACE

Jim Chester
UppityNegress,

I grappled with the same thing years ago sort of, and after coming to the conclustion that too many of our people DO NOT WANT help, advice, concern from other Blacks (but will suck it up like kool-aid) if it is coming from some other (usually white) race/group of people; and after accepting the fact that the same community that I was living in had changed drastically from the time we first moved their to the time I had a family of my own. Although, it had not yet become a matter of being dangerous, it was weighed down with some of the most ignorant, uninformed, unambitiously satisfied negroes you could imagine.

After I came to the conclusion that the major problem with the poor black communities is not that they are poor, but that in reality, like any other community, children are influced as much by their environment as they are their parents, i.e., two parents (or one parent) inside their homes influence + 300+ people outside their homes directly and/or indirectly influencing young minds, well the parents or parent is grossly out numbered; (and after watching documentaries, news, movies, etc., about the most horrible places that Black people lived in America, and saying to myself, why don't they just leave?/ if it were me, I would get on a bus, train, plane and go to the smallest, safest little town in America to get away from all that, etc.) I decided that if I wanted my children to be influenced primarily by me and a predominately positive greater community environment and direct as well as indirect influences, then my choice had to be to move.

I chose to move for the sake of my children's well being, otherwise, had I chose to not have children, I think I would have stayed. After coming to the above conclusion, I did decide that my career would be primarily social service, legal and volunteering; my way of not completely turning my back on the community, yet not force the negative influences of the community down the throats of my children while trying to live my ideology as if it would only have and impact on my life alone.

So, it would be great if Black people did not abandon the Black community, but at what price? The way I see it, you don't have to live in the belly of the beast to not forget that you came from it, or to give something back to those still there, or to have an impact on it.
Hummm. The truth comes out when it's "Just Us Chickens".

As I said yesterday - the Black community is in the middle of a CULTURAL WAR. The Sambos have won the first battle. What you are really saying Uppity is that the environment that the SAMBOS have created have made you fear your once safe and peaceful community. There are thousands and thousands of Black mothers who do not allow their young children to play outside in front of their house for fear of being hit by a stray bullet.

It is time that we MANAGE our communities, block by block and make sure that each of the residents live according to some type of standard. I have advocated the need for a "Community Covenance" for all such communities. In the subdivision that I live in we are required to sign on to these rules for living as a condition of living here. It is for the shared interests of the community for everyone to maintain their property.


Those who are in REBELLION have taken over. They have struggled for so long AGAINST the system that when it comes time for them to build their own system their "rebellion training" has not prepared them adequately to do so.

I may be disagreeable to many of the PERSPECTIVES that you all have BUT I AM NOT BLIND NOR CRAZY. By attacking me you are not doing one thing to address the critical issues that impact far more Black people than you want to acknowledge.

We need a FUNCTIONAL CULTURE to be implemented in these communities.
Ideally we need CONSCIOUS Black people to move in and have the SAMBOS to change their ways or be shunned. Right now you all use too much energy to SHUN those disagree with you ideologically BUT SAY NOTHING TO THOSE SAMBOS WHO ARE PROVING TO BE THE MOST HARMFUL TO YOU.

The reason why you see so many Asians, Indians and Jews peddling their wares to Black folks in urban shopping centers is because they are merchants and they have been watching you and "your people" and how Blacks tick. This is not a "conspiracy". Black folks buy right into it. Black people's consumer behavior in the context of Asians living in America is a microcosim to America's consumer behavior with respect to China.

Black America will have to decide to relinquish some of their AMERICAN STANDARD OF LIVING in order to draw back and walk upon a path that builds up the community for the community's interest.

I personally live in an integrated community. We moved from a majority Black community. The only way that I would consider moving back is if EVERYONE in the community was bound to a convenance that was enforced.

So often folks focus on DEMANDING upon the "non-SAMBO Blacks". We need to start asking that the "SAMBO BLACKS" live up to some standards.

Absent any standards for them to live up to THEY WILL NOT DISAPPOINT YOU as they live DOWN to your low expectations that you have assigned to them.
quote:
Originally posted by Nmaginate:
quote:
We need a FUNCTIONAL CULTURE to be implemented in these communities.
Make up your mind, CONvoluted Feedback.

You said African American CULTURE is INTACT. By definition, that suggests FUNCTIONALITY.


Little Fella:

Why must you make things so different.

When I say "functional" I am speaking of FUNCTIONING to BRING THE PEOPLE CLOSER TO THEIR COMMON SOCIETAL GOALS.

It is true that the SAMBO culture has a "function" but it fails to make use of all of the productive capacity of the people who are beholden to it.
quote:
Originally posted by sunnubian:
UppityNegress,

I grappled with the same thing years ago sort of, and after coming to the conclustion that too many of our people DO NOT WANT help, advice, concern from other Blacks (but will suck it up like kool-aid) if it is coming from some other (usually white) race/group of people; and after accepting the fact that the same community that I was living in had changed drastically from the time we first moved their to the time I had a family of my own. Although, it had not yet become a matter of being dangerous, it was weighed down with some of the most ignorant, uninformed, unambitiously satisfied negroes you could imagine.

After I came to the conclusion that the major problem with the poor black communities is not that they are poor, but that in reality, like any other community, children are influced as much by their environment as they are their parents, i.e., two parents (or one parent) inside their homes influence + 300+ people outside their homes directly and/or indirectly influencing young minds, well the parents or parent is grossly out numbered; (and after watching documentaries, news, movies, etc., about the most horrible places that Black people lived in America, and saying to myself, why don't they just leave?/ if it were me, I would get on a bus, train, plane and go to the smallest, safest little town in America to get away from all that, etc.) I decided that if I wanted my children to be influenced primarily by me and a predominately positive greater community environment and direct as well as indirect influences, then my choice had to be to move.

I chose to move for the sake of my children's well being, otherwise, had I chose to not have children, I think I would have stayed. After coming to the above conclusion, I did decide that my career would be primarily social service, legal and volunteering; my way of not completely turning my back on the community, yet not force the negative influences of the community down the throats of my children while trying to live my ideology as if it would only have and impact on my life alone.

So, it would be great if Black people did not abandon the Black community, but at what price? The way I see it, you don't have to live in the belly of the beast to not forget that you came from it, or to give something back to those still there, or to have an impact on it.


I agree.

I also have to add:

1) We should create change and reform in economics to provide more federal aid and create more better-paying jobs to people in impovershed neighborhoods. There should be more scholarships awarded to good students in these neighborhoods to encourage higher college enrollment. There should also be more school education in these places the encourages professional careers.

2) Those of us who have "moved out" and "made it" should send aid to our relatives still in those places to help them have a chance at bettering their living standard, and possibly helping others out in the Community.
quote:
Originally posted by UppityNegress:

I don't know, I'm really confused on the issue. What do you guys think?


I grew up in the hood, and I live right next to it, in what I guess I can describe as "hood lite." It's not a beautiful place, but it's not Jamrock either. Jamrock is a few blocks away.

When I have the opportunity to, I will move to a more affluent area near here. The question in my mind is settled, and it's been so for a long time.

The problem is, no matter how heavily society at-large impacts the state of things for African-Americans, the real problems that we have to deal with in these neighborhoods consists of the chosen acts committed by people who live there. No matter how much evidence there is that flight, white racism & so on are the root reasons for things, no amount of retrenchment on your part is going to benefit somebody who willfully chooses to do things that he/she shouldn't do. Unless you're a multi-billionaire, who can buy up blocks and build schools and community centers, your presence there is not going to make the kind of difference that will make it worth it for you to live there dealing with the risks of being there. That's because, as you know, the problems you'll be faced with are not some amorphous "condition" as much as it is, stated simply, people who don't know how to act doing F'ed up things to you and yours (and to them and theirs, really).

Staying in the hood, you will only make a difference to those people who already are struggling to improve their condition. The ones out there banging will not respond favorably to you. Move out, and maintain some sort of volunteer or business presence in the hood. Living there is not the move unless u're gonna have some major resources to make huge changes.
This is the "head" Dr. Claud Anderson refers to in his new dialogue of rebuilding the black community....!

Fleeing is an updated word for integration. It weakens the community left behind and splinters the individuals leaving into a smaller...

Personally, I prefer the ole days when doctors and lawyers lived in the neighbor hood and provided strong mentorship...
quote:
Originally posted by Blacksanction:
Perhaps its time to abandon "the community" and to create a new healthy community/ collective where everyone has the same goal safety, good education and prosperity.

There is a time when its best to let go of the drowner who is more intent on pulling you under than in saving themselves.

Perhaps this is why the doctors left (triage)


Where do you suggest that this "new community" be created?

I'm sorry, but your solution sounds like a quick-fix akin to "White Flight". This "Black Flight" is just another form of "brain drain". All the successful, educated people who could help uplift the community flee away to start some idealistic "new community" and leave the poor and uneducated to rot.

That sounds like "out of sight, out of mind". That's one of the main problems of Africa today. Brain drain, all the educated, successful Africans emigrate to the West and leave Africa to rot and don't try to help reform and improve it.


I have to say, I don't think this "Get out of Dodge" attitude will help. It only benefits a few, and leaves the many to the wayside. That's gentrification.
quote:
Originally posted by Constructive Feedback:

I personally live in an integrated community. We moved from a majority Black community. The only way that I would consider moving back is if EVERYONE in the community was bound to a convenance that was enforced.


Why did you choose to not move into Cascade or Guilford Forest or any of the middle class African American communities? You act as if you had no choice.
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Well Fine, (I really enjoy reading all of the interesting information that you post here),

While I totally understand this premis, where does Dr. Claud Anderson live? Also, I agree, in a way that 'fleeing is an updated word for integration' - at least an updated way it is achieved.

Also, I too, "Personally, I prefer the ole days when doctors and lawyers lived in the neighbor hood and provided strong mentorship...", but another thing that I think should make or break flight is, property ownership and property ownership percentage, which is what we had before integration, lots of it, but in our quest to squeeze up into the white man's world, the majority of it has been sold and we are no longer the primary property owners in these same predominately Black, and now, poverty and crime infested communities, and property ownership makes a big difference in whether or not to 'flee.'
Empty Purnata
quote:
Where do you suggest that this "new community" be created?


Anywhere that the crackheads can't follow.

The cold reality is you can't save everyone and if folks are not interested in helping themselves then too bad, time to move on. I had posted previously that in order to change behaviour you sometimes have to create an urgency perhaps abandonment will motivate the drowners to kick their feet and save themselves.

Its time to make serious hard choices not continue to feed the blood sucking vermin that live off the good people in the cummunity.
I haven't read all of this thread (I will), but I wanted to mention that from a strictly financial standpoint, the answer to this is pretty clear. There are many traditionally black communities that are currently the focus of tremendous investment and growth (i.e. gentrification). The more we can hang in there in these communities, or be a part of the reinvestment plans, the more we will obtain both financial and community benefits.
"I haven't read all of this thread (I will), but I wanted to mention that from a strictly financial standpoint, the answer to this is pretty clear. There are many traditionally black communities that are currently the focus of tremendous investment and growth (i.e. gentrification). The more we can hang in there in these communities, or be a part of the reinvestment plans, the more we will obtain both financial and community benefits."

---posted by MBM

_______________________________________________


"Gentrification Of Urbran Neighborhoods" thread by Empty Purnata:



Posted December 30, 2005 10:36 AM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gentrification

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Posts: 602 | Registered: October 29, 2005
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Response:


sunnubian
Master of The Universe

Posted December 30, 2005 10:58 AM
This is something else I have witnessed taking place a lot over the past two decades. I remember when I was working for social services in my hometown and I was talking with one of the social workers who was new to the state, etc., and he said that he lived in "__________ apartments", and I remember telling him that he may want to find somewhere else to live, etc., but was then interupted by another co-worker, who basically said, 'oh, it not like that anymore, they have renovated that whole block" . . . which was the truth and one of my first exposures to 'gentrification.'

This process brings me to why Cosby's statements, flipping the scrip onto the the poor just burns me up, since, if anyone has 'dropped the ball' it has been the Black upper class, those with the money to invest in these communities (and get rich doing so) since the property value in some case is damn near nothing, and would be a way that Black people with money COULD invest in declining Black communities, and in turn, having all or most of the property owned and not rented, and by other Black people at that - and with property owners collectively having more say so in community rights, ordinances, rules and regulations, be able to turn predominately Black communities around, even if through 'gentrification' of sorts, but leaving all or the majority Black owned.
quote:
Originally posted by Blacksanction:
Anywhere that the crackheads can't follow.

The cold reality is you can't save everyone and if folks are not interested in helping themselves then too bad, time to move on. I had posted previously that in order to change behaviour you sometimes have to create an urgency perhaps abandonment will motivate the drowners to kick their feet and save themselves.

Its time to make serious hard choices not continue to feed the blood sucking vermin that live off the good people in the cummunity.


You seem to be saying that people are all poor because they are just lazy. Your plan would leave a good 80%+ of the commnunity SOL. What kind of plan is that? Out of sight, out of mind? That sounds too close to Social Darwinism.


You should read my thread on gentrification. This isn't all on the poor. The middle class and the wealthy class are also responsible for why so many people are poor and remain poor. Your view of poor people seems typical of a person who lived a middle-class, privileged life. "Oh, those poor people? Why can't they just all get jobs/better-paying jobs? Oh come on, people are just poor because they don't work hard enough."

You can work 5 jobs, and if you are undereducated, all of them are minimum wage, and the city goverment works to benefit wealthy investors, and purposely works to benefit corporations and keep you poor, you cannot win.

Rich people are just as much to blame for poor people being poor as poor people are (probably even more so). I'm sorry, but this Rush Limbaugh/Ronald Reagan-like philosophy just doesn't add up to reality.
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quote:
Originally posted by MBM:
quote:
Originally posted by Constructive Feedback:

I personally live in an integrated community. We moved from a majority Black community. The only way that I would consider moving back is if EVERYONE in the community was bound to a convenance that was enforced.


Why did you choose to not move into Cascade or Guilford Forest or any of the middle class African American communities? You act as if you had no choice?


Brother MBM:

We moved FROM Fulton County.

In doing research on both the TAXES, insurance reduction and the school system there was simply no contest.

I INSTANTLY saved about $2000 per year in property taxes.

My auto insurance rate decreased nearly in half for 2 cars.

Fayette County's schools system ranks near the top of the state. My wife and I plan to have our children lift up or maintain this academic standard NOT drag upon it.

The house that I purchased in Fayette started out less expensive than anything of comparible size in the communities that you have mentioned. 8 years later our value has either caught up or exceeded these very areas. Taxes still being lower.

My subdivision is "gentrifying" Black. I am just fine with this. Out of the two new neighbors that I have gained this year - both share my same general values and both are good drinking buddies.

I am happy where I am. Don't plan to move.
quote:
Originally posted by Constructive Feedback:

I am happy where I am. Don't plan to move.


Since you constantly attack anything black, then it must be the white influence in your new neighborhood that makes you "happy" where you are. That's disappointing, particularly since there are wonderful ALL black neighborhoods, with multi-million dollar homes, in close vicinity to you in the Atlanta area.

BTW - do you believe there are "cultural wars" there?
quote:
When I say "functional" I am speaking of FUNCTIONING to BRING THE PEOPLE CLOSER TO THEIR COMMON SOCIETAL GOALS.

It is true that the SAMBO culture has a "function" but it fails to make use of all of the productive capacity of the people who are beholden to it.
There you go with more BULLSHIT ASS RHETORIC!

"Common Societal Goals"??? (CSG)

What the fuck are you talking about?
You speak as if there are such things there... then you say some BULLSHIT about a having a CONVENANT enforced?

In truth, CSG is just some BULLSHIT you say. You know that BS has no meaning. And then you go on to further BULLSHIT talking about "functioning" and so-called SAMBOs serving a "function." Dude, none of your idiotic play on the word FUNCTIONal is functioning... You are not communicating in intelligible ENGLISH!!!

How in the hell can SAMBOs be a part of an "INTACT" Culture and be seen as people who have goals IN COMMON with whoever else is you claim is suppose to have CSG in mind? (You know, yet another of your undisclosed, unexamined BULLSHIT ass categories - CSG.) How is it that you determine if even everybody besides the SAMBOs have the same CSG when you feel like a critiques of certain people's methods are warranted? When you feel like your little WHITE BOY CHALLENGE of "America Love It Or... Let's See If You'll Leave It... and remove yourself from 'EVIL' America" is warranted?

The shit you say is, as noted, CONVOLUTED. You don't even know what the hell you're talking about. Again, a Culture that is INTACT suggest that it is fully FUNCTIONAL.

INTACT = untouched especially by anything that harms or diminishes

So you need to make up your mind, PUNK.
You need to get your shit straight before you open up your mouth. You can't talk about a Cultural War and the effect you suggest SAMBO's have had in forcing people out of what used to be "peaceful" communities, etc. and hold the position you profess: That the Culture is INTACT and not diminished by the presence of Sambos, BLPF, etc.

Basically, if you're trying to hold this idea of CSG... basically you're saying that you have GOALS in COMMON with people you refer to as BLPF. Okay, either way...
WHAT ARE THESE SUPPOSED COMMON SOCIETAL GOALS??
    DEBUNK #1: You only advocate fighting on ONE FRONT... So, obviously, you don't share goals in common with most Black people about their place, position and status, etc. in American SOCIETY.
So what COMMON GOALS are you talking about?
It's not that hard. It ain't even difficult. You've alluded to "shared" or "common goals" a lot but you have NEVER specified what they are in order for us to determine if indeed they are held IN COMMON.

I am not one to accept unqualified statements. I have to challenge you to specify what the hell you think you are talking about.
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Empty

I came from a poor country St. Kitts West Indies. I lived in a small village and my parents worked on a sugar cane plantation. I was fortunate that both my parents were motivated enough to want more for their children than to be cane workers.I still remember the house where I spent the first seven years of my life. One of my favorite toys was a stick and a steel rim from a bicyle that I would race my friends with down a dirt road in our village. Oh yea I was middleclass poor.
My father left the island and found work in his trade on several other islands. He saved his money until he had enough to go to Canada (he had to show his bank book at the Canadian embassy on a weekly basis to prove he was capable saving and be responsible prior to being allowed to emigrate). He worked in Canada for two years and saved enough to send for my mother, brother and me in the early seventies. I started school and had endure strange white kids asking about my funny accent.

My point is I truley know what it is to be poor and being on welfare in a subsidize house in America or Canada is not even close.

I also work with the poor in my community and sit on several community board groups who focus is the safety of the community and coordinating with various social agnecies aswell as advocacy for those citizens who can't represent themselves such as the mentally ill. The one thing that I find is that there is a lot of apathy.
For a community to really be a community everyone must contribute not just consume.

I do know what I am talking about as I have been doing it for over 19years. You can call it Social Darwinism or what ever, you still missed my point that sometimes a crisis is the only way that some people are going to be motivated to shift their ass. It is high time that we stop excusing a lack of an education for a person not to do what is right as there are more uneducated persons with common sense than there are educated with.

What are you doing for your community??
This topic reminds me of my time in New York City. I got the bright idea to move into a neighborhood in Bed-Sty (Brooklyn). My parents cried after they helped me move, but I was thrilled to be in a place just brimming with Black folks and so close to people who were struggling that I could maybe help or just learn from. Shortly thereafter I was violently mugged by two men, packed my bags and moved right to the Upper East Side.

Let the police and grass roots organizations, etc help the "blighted communities." Go in business for yourself as a developer if you want to get in on the gentrification. Or rent out your place until the area improves. Otherwise, live somewhere safe and suitable to your class, so you're not as much of a walking target.

Clearly, crime and "blight" are everywhere. But some areas are certainly more dangerous than others. Life is more desperate in some places than others. You just can't ignore that in favor of some idealistic view of "keeping it real." JMHO.
It is a difficult decision to determine whether one should leave their blight-ridden community behind and migrate to the suburbs. I think as far as safety is concerned, it would be in your best interest to move to an environment that would lessen the chances that you and or your children would become a statistic.

If there is a way out, then take advantage of it, but never forget where you came from. It is very important that we remember our roots and those that have been left behind. We should continue to give back to our communities and strive to make a difference, even if we are no longer physically residing in the neighborhoods we grew up in.

You can still make investments, volunteer, and give your time toward making advances. Hopefully all of your hard work and dedication will pay off and there will come a time when the middle and upper class minority will no longer join in abandoning our communities due to urban crime and poor educational standards.

You stated that you are at a point in your life in which you had thoughts of being a separatist, well, there are plenty of thriving black middle class communitites which you can consider settling.
quote:
Originally posted by UppityNegress:
I don't know, I'm really confused on the issue. What do you guys think?


Here's what I think. If you're going to leave, then go. But don't leave, and then once you make it, talk shit about the people you leave behind. Simply be grateful that you have been given the opportunity to better yourself. Why do people have to talk bad about others when their "ticket" comes in. Just be happy and move your ass on. I'm from S.E. Washington, D.C., and my parents are both from the projects. Now, they live in a half a million dollar home, but they remember from where they came, and this helps them to identify with the friends and relatives who still live in those communities. Progress takes time. So don't down people in poor neighborhoods while they are there.

What upsets me is when Black people leave predominately Black communities, and then after living among Whites for a period of time, begin to adopt the same nauseating attitudes as Whites. After awhile, these Blacks, who are obviously suffering from a severe case of amnesia, can't go anywhere where "those kind of people" are around, they can't eat in "those kind of restaurants" or travel in "those parts of town." Please. You used to be one of "those kind of people," and you need to remember that. Besides, if it weren't for "those kind of people," America would not be where it is today. Many of America's highly-esteemed past and present talent comes from "those kind of neighborhoods." So loose the snooty attitude. That's all I have to say.
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quote:
What upsets me is when Black people leave predominately Black communities, and then after living among Whites for a period of time, begin to adopt the same nauseating attitudes as Whites. After awhile, these Blacks, who are obviously suffering from a severe case of amnesia, can't go anywhere where "those kind of people" are around, they can't eat in "those kind of restaurants" or travel in "those parts of town." Please. You used to be one of "those kind of people," and you need to remember that. Besides, if it weren't for "those kind of people," America would not be where it is today. Many of America's highly-esteemed past and present talent comes from "those kind of neighborhoods." So loose the snooty attitude. That's all I have to say.


I think I understand what you are saying, Rowe, but I suppose some of that is just a matter of exposure. Once you've seen better, tasted better, experienced better, etc, you really can't go back to whatever you were used to before and be satisfied. I think that's only natural and not really indicative of morphing into White people.
quote:
Originally posted by Frenchy:
...but I suppose some of that is just a matter of exposure.


I would disagree. Exposure is not a direct route to snobbery.

quote:
Once you've seen better, tasted better, experienced better, etc, you really can't go back to whatever you were used to before and be satisfied.


That's wasn't the point being made. It was that once you have achieved a certain measure of success, it is not a license to denigrate those who have not.
I grew up in Watts as well. Whether you choose to move or stay you can still make an impact.

What type of change do you want to make is my question? When I lived in L.A., I volunteered with Black organizations in an attempt to make change. Don't know how much change was made but all you can do is try no matter where you live.

Personally, I had much more peace not hearing the helicopters and gunshots before going to sleep. Being able to walk down the streets without fear was nice.

Living in Watts is no joke. There are places that aren't too bad but some areas are dangerous and you must consider the danger not only to yourself, but to any children you may have.

Good luck.
"I grew up in Watts as well. Whether you choose to move or stay you can still make an impact.

What type of change do you want to make is my question? When I lived in L.A., I volunteered with Black organizations in an attempt to make change. Don't know how much change was made but all you can do is try no matter where you live.

Personally, I had much more peace not hearing the helicopters and gunshots before going to sleep. Being able to walk down the streets without fear was nice.

Living in Watts is no joke. There are places that aren't too bad but some areas are dangerous and you must consider the danger not only to yourself, but to any children you may have.

Good luck." by honie

*******************************

...and Honie,

....for those who remain, Watts, South Central Los Angeles, etc., are in store for brighter days. The move to make Los Angeles a world class city continues, and the undesirables are being driven from area, to make this area more business friendly, safer, and financially attractive, to which property values, employment opportunities, etc., are on the rise. LAPD, Federal police, and other policing authorities are making use of HR 1279 to rid this area of gangmembers, drug dealers, and/or any co-conspirator in such activity.

Over the past decade criminal activity, gang violence, senseless shooting and maiming, etc., in Watts, Compton, South Central Los Angeles, etc., is on the decline. For few Black people who have remained, who also own property, their property values have soared, businesses that formerly treated this area as if it had the "cooties" are now returning. New public schools and libraries have been built and/or are being built. The demographics of South Central Los Angeles, Watts, and Compton have changed from formerly predominately Black people to Hispanic, the majority of the property owners, and small business owners of Watts, South Central Los Angeles, and Compton are now predominately Hispanic.

*******************************

Police Make Presence Felt on South L.A. Homicides, Ranks of detectives are being doubled in the area, which has a history of high caseloads and unsolved crimes. Early results are promising.

By Jill Leovy, Times Staff Writer

December 30, 2005

Los Angeles police officials are in the process of nearly doubling the number of detectives devoted to homicide cases across the most violent swatches of South Los Angeles.

The plan is part of a larger effort to address the hundreds of unsolved homicides in the city's most violent area.

In addition to adding detectives, it calls for improving treatment and protection of victims and witnesses, and launching a new billboard campaign to encourage the public to cooperate with investigators.

Calling the high caseloads of Los Angeles Police Department detectives in high-crime areas "substandard," Deputy Chief Earl Paysinger, head of the LAPD's South Bureau, said the addition of detectives "is an investment this organization must make in the future."

Homicide detectives in South Los Angeles have long had the highest caseloads in the city and produced some of the lowest rates of solved killings.

The result for years has been that murderers have been more likely to get away with their crimes in South L.A. than in wealthier, safer parts of the city.

By expanding the ranks of homicide detectives and reducing high caseloads, Paysinger said, he hopes to ensure that South Los Angeles killings get more police attention.

The LAPD's South Bureau handles the city's three most dangerous divisions: Southwest, 77th Street and Southeast. The new initiative has increased the number of homicide detectives working in those divisions about 50% in recent months.

Rates of solved killings are improving as detectives get more time for each case, he said.

To get the detectives, cuts will be needed elsewhere, including gang details and robbery-detective squads, police officials conceded.

Homicides in South Los Angeles and the police department's ability to address them have been the focus of a series of Los Angeles Times articles over the last two years. The articles have documented the high caseloads in the South Bureau, the lack of equipment for detectives, the corresponding low rates of cleared homicides and the mistrust of police by residents skeptical that authorities are able to solve crimes.

An internal LAPD review this year produced similar findings: In general, when detective caseloads are highest, murderers are most likely to go free, Paysinger said.

As the impetus for the department's new effort, Paysinger cited both the internal study and a Times article last June that followed a homicide squad as it sought to solve the murder of auto-parts salesman Jerry Wesley Jr.

The effort to beef up homicide investigations marks a departure from more conventional crime-fighting strategies in South L.A.

Typically, those have sought to prevent crime and have hinged on increasing the visibility of police "” particularly uniformed officers "” on the streets.

By boosting the number of plainclothes detectives trying to crack the scores of unsolved South-Central homicides, Paysinger is going at crime from another direction, trying to improve the way police react.

In part, said LAPD South Bureau Cmdr. Michael Downing, officials believe that many killers are multiple murderers. Catching them will prevent subsequent crimes, he said.

The department is also seeking a long-term, less easily measured result: improving trust.

Vast numbers of unsolved homicides in black and Latino communities of South Los Angeles have reinforced a belief among residents that the police don't care or can't be relied on to stand up to predators, Downing and Paysinger said.

That belief has persisted even though the South Bureau has posted the second-steepest drop in homicides of any of the LAPD's four bureaus this year. As of Dec. 24, South Bureau homicides stood at 202, down 14% from the 234 recorded last year.

Nonetheless, the rate is still high, and the unsolved homicides reduce people's willingness to cooperate with the police and further weaken the ability to rein in lawlessness, they said.

The goal of the new effort is to try to break that cycle.

"We have to give the community confidence that we have the ability to solve crime and that we can put perpetrators in jail," Downing said. "Right now, people are afraid to cooperate, and we have to deal with that fear.

"In time, we can raise the community's expectations, and that's when we will get a long-term preventive effect," he said.

Added Paysinger: "When homicides resonate so much in the hearts and minds of this community, this organization has an extra responsibility to respond."

The three divisions in the South Bureau have 52 detectives, up from about 35 in early 2005, Paysinger said. More detectives are in training or being selected.

The rate at which killings are resolved in some way "” either by an arrest or by the identification of a suspect who is being sought, is expected to top 60% in the LAPD's South Bureau this year for the first time in six years, up from 38% in 2000.

The department is also making other small, practical changes in its response to homicide. A mobile home once used to shelter witnesses and victims' family members has been returned to service, Downing said. And detectives in the Southeast Division have been given equipment to record interrogations.

The strategy carries risks in addition to the possibility of depleting other parts of the force.

Preventive policing has dominated research in criminal justice for years, leaving LAPD officials with few studies to draw on as they try to figure out how to improve investigative policing. The long-term trust-building effect that Downing cites remains largely theoretical.

Finally, improving the quality of homicide investigations may take many years to pay off, a daunting prospect in Los Angeles, where crime trends are measured week to week and police commanders are under pressure to produce quick results.

Opinions about the recent changes in the South Bureau varied among rank-and-file detectives. Some said the LAPD's resources would be better spent on expanding patrol ranks. But many gave the recent changes rave reviews.

"It's worth the money," said Det. Stan Evans of the LAPD's Southwest Division, which used to have 11 homicide detectives and now has 20. "It makes a difference."

Evans described a case from earlier this year "” the daytime killing of 17-year-old Lance Brodis near Crenshaw Mall.

Shortly after the shooting, the suspected killer was spotted at a nearby address. There were many witnesses, two crime scenes and rival gangs involved (though police had no evidence of Brodis' being a gang member, Evans said).

A pair of detectives per crime scene is often all that the LAPD can manage. But this time, Evans said, Southwest was able to put a dozen homicide detectives on the case right away. They interviewed 15 witnesses within hours of the shooting and made an arrest a week later, Evans said.

Similarly, Det. Rocky Sato of the LAPD's 77th Street Division said more detectives there have "absolutely" improved the department's response to homicide.

Sato was unapologetic about homicide cases drawing away resources from other areas. "Homicide is the ultimate crime as far as I'm concerned," Sato said. "What's worse?"

In the Southeast Division, Det. Chris Barling, whose frustration with the low public priority assigned to homicide was described in the Times story in June, said he remains plagued by the sense that most people don't care about urban homicide so long as it remains confined to poor minority neighborhoods.

But he said Paysinger's recent efforts have changed his view somewhat.

Paysinger "really does care," Barling said. "He may not know the answers. But at least he cares."

Copyright 2006 Los Angeles Times

*******************************

In addition, South Central Los Angeles, Compton, Watts, etc., are becoming more integrated than at any other time since the 60s. I live at the south most edge of Korea Town, on the borderline between South Central Los Angeles, and Korea Town, to which just last Friday, LAPD and Federal policing authorities worked in conjunction to make arrests, place barridades, place yellow caution tape, etc., to block access, for at least four hours, for any resident in the neighborhood, myself inclusive to return to their place of residency.

HR 1279 in pdf.

.......and those in the gang community, and those who harbor them should quit while they are ahead, or else face serious consequences.


HR 1279, etc., a tool of policing authorities to put the illicit drug dealers, and those who harbor them out of commission.

The LAPD, Federal policing authorities, canines, and the use of "Ghetto birds" were used to conduct a several hour policing investigation. At the end of this search and apprehend mission, several Black gangmembers who were brandishing and shooting firearms, who were involved in the illicit drug trade, and/or who forced their way into a residence at gunpoint, a few houses south of where I reside, are now behind bars. These individuals will soon face years of penal incarceration for their involvement in very serious criminal behavior.

It is certain that the owner of the property where this illicit activity took place is also under investigation. In some cases, those who own property, who knowingly rent their property to drug dealers, are being forced by government authorities, to relinquish the ownership of their property to the government. Those actually involved in illicit drug dealing, and/or any property owner who harbors such activity, will pay a steep price for their actions, a price that is making South Central Los Angeles, Compton, Watts, Inglewood, Pacoima, East Los Angeles, Long Beach, Lynwood, etc., etc., much safer places to live.

Hang in there, Honie. My sister and her husband purchased property in the vacinity of 125th and Normandie, and the property values of anyone who owns property in Watts have risen dramatically. This is definitely a very good time to buy property in Watts, South Central Los Angeles, Compton, etc., because property values that have long remained at the bottom of the financial benefit chain, are now rising fast, namely because of the changing safer environment of these areas. In this instance, gentrification and re-gentrification of this area are a good thing, and are a very positive influence in making the community a safer, prosperous living and business environment.

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I want to thank everyone for their input. I was walking to the supermarket today when it hit me: there are hardly any Black people left in Watts, anyways! It's now grown to be about 80% Hispanic, practically overnight. Before I began high school, I had the choice of going to a magnet school 50 miles away in the San Fernando Valley, or Jordan High. At the time, Jordan was ~ 70% Black. I chose the magnet school. I went to check on the statistics of the school a few days ago, and it is now about 80% Hispanic. WTF? This was not even 8 years ago. I've noticed it elsewhere, too; billboards, pedestrians, etc... It seems the even the poorest of the Blacks are moving (being displaced by Hispanic immigrants). There are fewer and fewer Black folk to actually stay for. Looks like I'm headed for Black suburbia.

Is it wrong to be apathetic towards community improvement when said community is not composed of your ethnic/racial/cultural group? Not that I want to see the Hispanics remain poor and uneducated, I merely don't want to expend the time, money, and energy improving a place for people who are more or less displacing my own kith and kin. Anyone know of any good Black suburbs in California? The Crenshaw district has some absolutely beautiful houses and neighborhoods. Anywhere else? As mnay have pointed out, there's no reason I can't live in the safety and comfort of the Black middle class but still invest in poor Black communities, or volunteer my time.
quote:
Originally posted by UppityNegress:
Now about 80% Hispanic. WTF? This was not even 8 years ago. I've noticed it elsewhere, too; billboards, pedestrians, etc... It seems the even the poorest of the Blacks are moving (being displaced by Hispanic immigrants).


I can't tell you how to feel about your situation, but I believe that this is the wrong attitude to have. I am almost certain that before Blacks overcame that community, much like many urban communities, Whites were making the very same racist complaints about their increased presence. Hispanic communities are on the rise, and if we are not maintain our claims of being a "welcoming" and "nonprejudice" society, then this is a reality that we must respect. No one seems to have any complaints about the growing Hispanic population when they want their lawns maintained, luxury homes built, or their businesses renovated! Where else are they and their children suppose to live and go to public schools? I have taught Hispanic children, and they just as loving as other children. Again, people need to loose the snooty attitude. Blacks struggled to become successful in this country, so make way for others to do the same.
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quote:
Originally posted by Michael:
For few Black people who have remained, who also own property, their property values have soared, businesses that formerly treated this area as if it had the "cooties" are now returning. New public schools and libraries have been built and/or are being built. The demographics of South Central Los Angeles, Watts, and Compton have changed from formerly predominately Black people to Hispanic, the majority of the property owners, and small business owners of Watts, South Central Los Angeles, and Compton are now predominately Hispanic.


I am aware of this but do you believe the majority of Blacks who fled Watts owned property? Renting doesn't give ties to a community like home ownership does.

I don't know how many units/apartments there are in the Jordan Downs, Hacienda Village, Imperial Courts or Nickerson Garden housing projects has but a lot of families lived there. Hispanics have large families and I'm surprised that it is only 80% Hispanic.
quote:
Originally posted by Rowe:
quote:
Originally posted by UppityNegress:
Now about 80% Hispanic. WTF? This was not even 8 years ago. I've noticed it elsewhere, too; billboards, pedestrians, etc... It seems the even the poorest of the Blacks are moving (being displaced by Hispanic immigrants).


I can't tell you how to feel about your situation, but I believe that this is the wrong attitude to have. I am almost certain that before Blacks overcame that community, much like many urban communities, Whites were making the very same racist complaints about your increased presence. Hispanic communities are on the rise, and if we are not maintain our claims of being a "welcoming" and "nonprejudice" society, then this is a reality that we must respect. No one seems to have any complaints about the growing Hispanic population when they want their lawns maintained, luxury homes built, or their businesses renovated! Where else are they and their children suppose to live and go to public schools? I have taught Hispanic children, and they just as loving as other children. Again, people need to loose the snooty attitude. Blacks struggled to become successful in this country, so make way for others to do the same.


thanks

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