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First, I'm not going to do this justice but I'll share my thoughts...

When the US went into Iraq and removed So-Damn Insane, etc., etc. widespread lawlessness broke out as a result. In fact, as some see it, that event and those things that were not done to restore order in Iraq made Iraq "A Haven For Terrorists."

Though perhaps an extreme case, I believe it is instructive of the type of vacuum in which gangs, as we know of them (Crips, etc.), came to be.

Simply put, a breakdown or shift in the social order, became the breeding grounds for gang activity, not to mention the spike in drugs, etc.

We see clearly with Iraq that pre-invasion, though there was a criminal, and perhaps even a terrorist element, it was nowhere near what it is now and arguably would not have ever came to fuition under the old Iraqi regime (whatever you think about it). So, in truth, the US invasion made Iraq into a "Haven For Terrorists", etc.

And I just decided to bring this up because of the huge disconnect going on around here with people acting like Black Gangs came from out of nowhere and are the sole, terrible creations of the Tookie Williams' of the world.
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Brother , one fact we have to accept. White Supremacy is alive and well. Out of all the placess in the world that are i despair we gonna take freedom to Iraq, what about Rwanda, Sudan, its a joke peroid. Everyone knows Iraq has been bottled up since the first invaision. and now we trying Sadaam for crimes we sanctioned. In the 80's we gave him gas, we supplied him with weapons, know he is a Tyrannt.I was watching C-Span one day and a brother from the continent confronted the Two white scholars, they were talking about terrorism and the middle east or whatevea, and he plainly stated. Isnt the whole middle east an artificial creation of Europe and America. i mean From Saudi Arabia, to Iraq, to Jordan, Lebanon etc, they countries were created, by Europeans, and everyone knows Iraq as we know it today was drawn on a map by Britain, and it deliberately created ethnic tensions thats what they do divide and conquor
quote:
Originally posted by Nmaginate:
First, I'm not going to do this justice but I'll share my thoughts...

When the US went into Iraq and removed So-Damn Insane, etc., etc. widespread lawlessness broke out as a result. In fact, as some see it, that event and those things that were not done to restore order in Iraq made Iraq "A Haven For Terrorists."

Though perhaps an extreme case, I believe it is instructive of the type of vacuum in which gangs, as we know of them (Crips, etc.), came to be.

Simply put, a breakdown or shift in the social order, became the breeding grounds for gang activity, not to mention the spike in drugs, etc.

We see clearly with Iraq that pre-invasion, though there was a criminal, and perhaps even a terrorist element, it was nowhere near what it is now and arguably would not have ever came to fuition under the old Iraqi regime (whatever you think about it). So, in truth, the US invasion made Iraq into a "Haven For Terrorists", etc.

And I just decided to bring this up because of the huge disconnect going on around here with people acting like Black Gangs came from out of nowhere and are the sole, terrible creations of the Tookie Williams' of the world.


Yes!! The "Root" cause is poverty. Social enginnering.

ZAKAR noted the Sudan. Poverty, lawlessnes abounds, drugs, and no hope.

If I woke up every day in S. LA or Jordan Downs projects, I may of been Tookie Williams.

Let me clarify, I am not making a excuse for crime, I am saying the "enviornment" creates crime, lawlessness and poverty. Social enginnering.
quote:
Originally posted by Iam:
quote:
Originally posted by Nmaginate:
First, I'm not going to do this justice but I'll share my thoughts...

When the US went into Iraq and removed So-Damn Insane, etc., etc. widespread lawlessness broke out as a result. In fact, as some see it, that event and those things that were not done to restore order in Iraq made Iraq "A Haven For Terrorists."

Though perhaps an extreme case, I believe it is instructive of the type of vacuum in which gangs, as we know of them (Crips, etc.), came to be.

Simply put, a breakdown or shift in the social order, became the breeding grounds for gang activity, not to mention the spike in drugs, etc.

We see clearly with Iraq that pre-invasion, though there was a criminal, and perhaps even a terrorist element, it was nowhere near what it is now and arguably would not have ever came to fuition under the old Iraqi regime (whatever you think about it). So, in truth, the US invasion made Iraq into a "Haven For Terrorists", etc.

And I just decided to bring this up because of the huge disconnect going on around here with people acting like Black Gangs came from out of nowhere and are the sole, terrible creations of the Tookie Williams' of the world.


Yes!! The "Root" cause is poverty. Social enginnering.

ZAKAR noted the Sudan. Poverty, lawlessnes abounds, drugs, and no hope.

If I woke up every day in S. LA or Jordan Downs projects, I may of been Tookie Williams.

Let me clarify, I am not making a excuse for crime, I am saying the "enviornment" creates crime, lawlessness and poverty. Social enginnering.


AGAIN, QUOTED FOR TRUTH.

Wise insight, both of you! tfro
quote:
Let me clarify, I am not making a excuse for crime, I am saying the "enviornment" creates crime...
And I'm saying in the absence of ORDER or a situation where there is DISORDER then there is a... call it a Power Vacuum that gives the criminal element the opportunity to flourish, again, in the absence of ORDER.

I am saying that the criminal element is there. Always there. People who came of age in the late 60's and 70's can attest to there being gangs and pimps, etc. who had little by which to lure the type of numbers gangs attracted in the 80's, etc. until drugs became so prevalent. The proliferation drugs being but one element in the breakdown of the social ORDER. The obvious lack of counterveiling forces implicate a lot more than the criminal element though just like the disorder in Iraq is attributable to more than just the "terrorists" or insurgents.

There were clearly other forces that came to bear and, in part, produced the lawlessness that swept Iraq during and after the invasion. Funny how people can even go so far as to say that US actions (by pulling) would contribute to "Civil War" via factional (i.e. "gang") fighting but that type of analysis is somehow taboo with respect to African-American communities infested with gangs. I presume it's due to the personal pain and impact involved... or just the conventional framing of issues.

People can see a variety of factors involved in the Iraqi situation but can't seem to get past the gangs themselves in the [African] American situation. As if they exist on an island by themselves.
quote:
We see clearly with Iraq that pre-invasion, though there was a criminal, and perhaps even a terrorist element, it was nowhere near what it is now and arguably would not have ever came to fuition under the old Iraqi regime (whatever you think about it). So, in truth, the US invasion made Iraq into a "Haven For Terrorists", etc.

quote:
We see clearly with Iraq that pre-invasion, though there was a criminal, and perhaps even a terrorist element, it was nowhere near what it is now and arguably would not have ever came to fuition under the old Iraqi regime (whatever you think about it). So, in truth, the US invasion made Iraq into a "Haven For Terrorists", etc.



So young. So confused.

Many of the same people who are setting off bombs in Iraq TODAY are the main people who keep the society supressed with the theat of violence as they imposed their Islamic law upon the people.

After years of living with this threat and having their free will beat out of them some of the regions of Iraq are not willing to stick their necks out and take advantage of the opportunity because the risk of terrorist violence is too great.

The Kurds in the North are the key exception. They are not looking back. The are using their new found freedom from oppression to develop a stable region. The Sheeites are doing the same but they are located in areas that are more heavily populated with insergents.

It is interesting that you didn't inspect how the MINOIRTY Sunni population was able to dominate the majority Sheeites and also the Kurds in the north. I GUESS THEY USED "GOOD TIDINGS" to impose their will upon these people?

How about starting you analysis of the situation there WITHOUT A STACKED DECK? Maybe then you will see that there is a group of people who want to be free and they are looking for defense from the terrorist threat that lives among them.


A few months ago when 900 people were killed on the bridge they didn't scramble after hearing "The Americans are coming. The Americans are coming to set off a bomb". They hear some one tell of a TERRORIST setting off a bomb and they ran for their lives trampling people and pushing others off of the bridge to their deaths.
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Many of the same people who are setting off bombs in Iraq TODAY are the main people who keep the society supressed with the theat of violence as they imposed their Islamic law upon the people.
What Iraq are you talking about? ISLAMIC LAW??

Hmmm... I feel a STFU coming on.

quote:
The Kurds in the North are the key exception... The Sheeites are doing the same but they are located in areas that are more heavily populated with insergents.
ENGLISH!!! Hell, even some right proper Arabic would do. Sh-EE-ites? What the fuck are you the perpetually UNLEARNED??

Hmmmm... And you had the nerve to talk about ISLAMIC LAW being imposed and then dare talk about Shi'ites taking advantage of opportunities in the supposed absence of the "imposition of ISLAMIC LAW"???

Dude, get a fuckin' grip and at least comment with at least a cursory knowledge about WHAT THE FUCK YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT!!

quote:
It is interesting that you didn't inspect how the MINOIRTY Sunni population was able to dominate the majority Sheeites and also the Kurds in the north.
And its rather sad though all so typical of your NOT TO HAVE SHIT TO SAY THAT'S ON TOPIC!!

quote:
How about starting you analysis of the situation there WITHOUT A STACKED DECK? Maybe then you will see that there is a group of people who want to be free and they are looking for defense from the terrorist threat that lives among them.
Who and what are you talking about?
How is whatever you think you're saying related to my topic? Roots Of Lawlessness: Creation of Gang Culture

With no comments from you to that effect... SHUT THE FUCK UP!!!

Please note (though you did quote it to no avail due to your lack of understanding common fuckin' ENGLISH!!): I don't give a FUCK what you think about the Iraqi situation. That is specifically why I used the term/phrase "arguably" and, more importantly, "whatever you think about it [the Iraqi situation or the regime pre-invasion]".

Talking about Iraq was not that purpose of this thread (of this topic) and you know it. And that's why you earn yet another... SHUT THE FUCK UP!!

Now, tell me??? Why are you talking about IRAQ??

Tell me where did you get this idea that ISLAMIC LAW was "imposed" in Saddam's Iraq?
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Unlearned or not, we sure know CON-Feed is unread. If he had actually read something about SHI'ITES then he would be at least faintly familiar with how to spell it.

I mean, spelling is one thing but do that shit in the process of Insulting My Intelligence by saying dumb shit about Islamic Law being imposed in Iraq and to somehow pose Shi'ites as the "victims" of it... Well, it just bears illustrating exactly how plum ignorant CON-Feed is.

But here's a little trivial question for CON-Feed: What's type of Muslims uphold the Islamic Law in Iran? Sunni? Shi'a? or Sufi?
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nd I'm saying in the absence of ORDER or a situation where there is DISORDER then there is a... call it a Power Vacuum that gives the criminal element the opportunity to flourish, again, in the absence of ORDER.



Ha! There's plenty of law and order in this country. But the gangster rejects that law and order. There is no 'gang culture' that is based upon some vacuum. The same people in the same neighborhoods as gangs work for an honest living. Banger reject that law and order, reject civility and steal and bully instead.

They make the same excuses as many liberals do. Bush lied, so I can lie too. America is corrupt, so I'm corrupt. This is not a culture simply because it's common - it is the fully conscious decision of men to be sociopathic. That's why they call you and me 'buster'.
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There's plenty of law and order in this country. But the gangster rejects that law and order.
Ummm... Your Point???

Ummm... Your logical consistency?

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When lowlifes start to control the streets and conditions are not right for raising families, people should draw lines and defend those lines.
How can this "control" happen when there is "plenty of Law and ORDER"?

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The same people in the same neighborhoods as gangs work for an honest living.
Huh? Confused
You have ENGLISH problems too?

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Banger reject that law and order, reject civility and steal and bully instead.
Wow!! What a revelation. Thanks, Cobb... Roll Eyes

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They make the same excuses as many liberals do.
You mean "excuses" like this? Some fully conscious "excuses" like this:
  • White racism and systematic oppression created the ghetto, 'defunded' the ghetto and then ignored cries of help from the ghetto.

    ...See, what I'm saying is that nobody can survive in the ghetto black or white, without a certain set of ghetto survival skills.

  • ...In either case there is no denying that white supremacy created and maintained the borders of black, brown, jewish and asian ghettos through a variety of means...

    The ghetto *is* a plantation. It is a jail. It's a trap. I've said over and over that it is a soul crushing place.
Which one is it, Cobb? Is it something "created" by White Racism & Systematic Oppression? You know, a "plantation" or sorts... Or is it, the "ghetto" - i.e. the gangster's terrain and area of purview - is it the product of their own fully independent and fully conscious decisions?

Is there Law and Order or not? I mean, how do you fathom, let alone explain, how gangsters (aka "lowlifes") gain "CONTROL" where, as you say, "there is plenty of law and order"??


Courtesy Of Some Stuff I'm Supposed To "Give Up"... for your sake, obviously.
quote:
Originally posted by Nmaginate:
quote:
There's plenty of law and order in this country. But the gangster rejects that law and order.
You mean "excuses" like this? Some fully conscious "excuses" like this:
  • White racism and systematic oppression created the ghetto, 'defunded' the ghetto and then ignored cries of help from the ghetto.

    ...See, what I'm saying is that nobody can survive in the ghetto black or white, without a certain set of ghetto survival skills.

  • ...In either case there is no denying that white supremacy created and maintained the borders of black, brown, jewish and asian ghettos through a variety of means...

    The ghetto *is* a plantation. It is a jail. It's a trap. I've said over and over that it is a soul crushing place.
Which one is it, Cobb? Is it something "created" by White Racism & Systematic Oppression? You know, a "plantation" or sorts... Or is it, the "ghetto" - i.e. the gangster's terrain and area of purview - is it the product of their own fully independent and fully conscious decisions?


Well, well, weeeellll!

The truth is, and remains, incontrovertible: the fish rots from the head down.
quote:
Simply put, a breakdown or shift in the social order, became the breeding grounds for gang activity, not to mention the spike in drugs, etc.


True, the rules of lawlessness that the gangs, spawned by the Tookies of America, follow are not their invention. The Mob was doing drive bys, selling drugs, etc. long before there were Crips and Bloods.

But just as the people that have created and invented the weapons of war like napalm didn't create war, they did contribute to it.

So his part in creating the Crips, leaves him culpable in the lose of life from gang violence.

The break down and shift in social order is easy to see in Iraq. But how, when, who etc did it happen in America to breed modern gangs?

Did it happen when programs were cut by the conservatives that may have given young black men training and better opportunities AND the drugs like crack became the "business" of choice? Was it when the middle class black moved out of the city and to the suburbs and forgot about the people left behind?
A Barbaric End to a Barbaric Life
Steve Lopez
Points West

December 14, 2005

In an odd way, the most disturbing thing about watching a man die by lethal injection is how discreetly death creeps into the room.

No sudden jolt, no snapping of the neck at the end of a rope, no severed head.

The inmate gets a shot, he closes his eyes, he sleeps.

The room where Stanley Tookie Williams was killed Tuesday morning is set up like a theater, with neat rows of spectators sitting or standing on risers to view the execution.

Late Monday night, as one of 39 witnesses, I was ushered past dozens of guards and prison officials and into the viewing area a few feet from the octagonal death chamber.

Before us in the stuffy little auditorium, the curtains were opened, Williams was led in by guards, and the midnight show began "” a dark, sinister, medieval drama in an archaic prison.

Never having witnessed an execution, I had tossed my name into the ring of potential spectators in order to see precisely what we're all a party to in a state that sanctions capital punishment. And now here I was, watching the clinical, calculated procedure used by the state of California to kill a man.

I watched the executioners struggle to tap a vein, digging into Williams' arms for minutes that seemed like hours. He was calm, if exasperated by the delay. Splayed out on his back and secured with tape and restraints, he lifted his head to study our faces, and he mouthed goodbyes to supporters who shared these close quarters with the relatives of his victims.

There was no apparent sign of suffering on Williams' part when the lethal injection did its duty. He lay motionless for several minutes before he was declared dead and the curtains were closed, show over.

"The state of California just killed an innocent man," three of his supporters shouted in unison.

That struck me as an insult to the families of Williams' victims. Of all the things Williams might have been, he wasn't innocent, and watching him die made me feel no differently about the man.

His victims, all four of them, were shotgunned as if it were a cheap thrill for Williams. And as one of the first Crips, he started something that destroyed everything in its path, bringing genocide to neighborhoods on top of all the other problems.

Williams was a tough guy in prison too, spending years in solitary confinement for his mayhem behind bars before he took a different tack. His anti-gang books and speeches from death row were great gestures, but the Nobel Peace Prize nominations were preposterous, and the marketing of Williams as a hero was offensive.

If he were truly redeemed, he would have taken responsibility for the murders, he would have rejected the duplicitous code of honor among those who refuse to tell what they know, and his dying words would have been a call for the dismantling of the gang he started.

Those who tried to cast Williams as a martyr, including the usual Hollywood rabble, once again picked the wrong man to carry the banner against the death penalty. They made a cause of Tookie Williams as others have done with Mumia Abu Jamal, the Philadelphia cop killer and death row inmate whose claim of innocence is pure fiction, despite the celebrity bestowed on him.

And yet, watching Williams put to death Tuesday morning by agents of the government "” his execution sanctioned in a country where godliness and virtue are synonymous, even as torture and execution are defended "” made me all the more certain that capital punishment is barbaric.

Though I don't question Williams' guilt, no one can dispute that across America, class, race and money figure prominently in the circumstances of crime and the quality of legal defense. Since 1973, in fact, 122 death row inmates have been exonerated or granted new hearings. A better poster child for abolishing the death penalty is No. 123, whoever that might be.

Twelve U.S. states no longer use capital punishment, and the possibility of a mistake is one of the reasons 40 countries have abolished the death penalty since 1990, including Mexico, Bosnia-Herzegovina and Senegal. In 2004, the United States followed only China, Iran and Vietnam in the number of executions.

Coming down the death row pike in California is a violent killer named Horace Edwards Kelly, whose wicked crimes are not in question. But he has been diagnosed as severely mentally ill, if not retarded, and was virtually tortured as a child.

Should we feel just as good about killing Kelly as we're supposed to feel about killing Williams? Will the premeditated and clinical execution of a feeble-minded man make us more civilized, more humane or any safer? Is life in a cage not enough to satisfy our puritanical beliefs or lust for blood?

Apparently not. Modern as we are, we still live by the law of an eye for an eye "” as long as it doesn't get too messy.

The needle is perfect. He closes his eyes, he's gone.

It's much easier to handle that way. Not just for the person put to death, but for us.

Reach the columnist at steve.lopez@latimes.com and read previous columns at latimes.com/lopez.
quote:
The break down and shift in social order is easy to see in Iraq.
But how, when, who etc did it happen in America to breed modern gangs?

Well, Slavery and Segregation can, no doubt, be seen as Acts of War. A different sort of occupation. Some have called our situation one that resembles a Domestic Colony.

A quick look at how our leaders (particularly in the 60's and 70's, though its a constant) are/were undermined if not assasinated (sic) shows how a virtual Power Vacuum was created.

Afghanistan may be a more direct parallel.
Intelligence or (IQ) is essentially the measure of one's ability to recognize patterns. Thus, when you look at the most violent countries of the world....in terms of street violence....what is the pattern? Well....lets take a look at the top few. At the head of the pack is South Africa, followed by Columbia, Brazil and Jamaica. What are some of the things they have in common? Well...they are all former colonies. They are all Democracies or Republics in one form or another. They are all capitalistic. They all have high rates of poverty.

Columbia is different from the general rule of the pattern because it does not have a large African/black population. It is also different because it is a source country for cocaine and there is an internal war going on between the drug cartels and the government which manifest in many killings. Thus, another very important pattern to note is the history of violent racial oppression of a people.

A seemingly ignored pattern throughout the world is that wherever blacks have been enslaved or brutalized under racial oppression, rates of violence are much higher than where this has not been the case or been the case to a lesser degree. The murder and violent crime rates of blacks in the vast majority of Africa is MUCH lower than those areas of the globe where blacks have cohabitated with whites for a long period of time.

How many of you knew that 4 of the five countries in the world with the lowest homicide rates were in Africa? I once read it in some book or rankings at a book store, which compiled statistics on cities countries and other things. I don't remember the total five, but I remember Burkina Faso, Benin and I think Cameroon and other West African country was one of the top five. The only non black county in the top 5 lowest homicide rates for countries was Ice land.

For the most part the pattern is that violence among blacks has risen historically as a reaction to contact with whites, which historically has been negative in the aggregate. First, warfare and tribalism in Africa was exacerbated in the divide and conquer strategy of Europeans who wanted to buy war captives between Africans and use them for slaves in their "new world". Then they used violence and degradation to control Africans in the new world for centuries. In other words, while they were abusing blacks via violence....the cultural affect was that they were acculturating black people to violence and a lesser degree of respect for black humanity as black against white violence was not tolerated while black-on-black violence went barely punished for most of history.

I could go on....but that suffices in exposing the TRUE pattern and cause of hyper violence in the black communities and ultimately the root ingredient to gang violence.
quote:
Originally posted by MidLifeMan:
quote:
I could go on....but that suffices in exposing the TRUE pattern and cause of hyper violence in the black communities and ultimately the root ingredient to gang violence

appl


It should be plain by now that to remonstrate against the symptom without addressing the source is no more effective than a doctor overlooking a patient's broken leg and prescribing medication for the pain.
quote:
It should be plain by now that to remonstrate against the symptom without addressing the source is no more effective than a doctor overlooking a patient's broken leg and prescribing medication for the pain.


What is the SOURCE Isome?

Have you or any other BQPF attempted to move away from the field of radition that this "source" casts upon you?

Or are you working to change the basic properties of this kryptonite so that it no longer emits it's harmful radition?

You just may succeed in changing the properties. There have been centuries of alchemists who have been attempting to change cheap metals into gold.

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