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quote:
Originally posted by Khalliqa:
quote:
Originally posted by Vox:
When a problem exists, we want to address it, right? A social phenomenon is a "problem" if it happens commonly enough.

If the parallel of that problem is just not very common, why spend an equal amount of time bemoaning it?

I hate to side against the brothers (but then again, there shouldn't be sides), but I just don't see a non-lame, bias-free reason for using an example of male on female domestic abuse as an opportunity for delving heavily into the much rarer female on male abuse. When we discuss an example of a black man being denied a job or a home unfairly, we don't countenance the CON-FEED type counter argument about "reverse discrimination."



This is refreshing to hear to say the least... and your example of the cry of reverse discrimination is a good analogy...

Though this sentiment has been expressed for some reason it does not seem to be addressed...


yeah thanks Vox.

I'm disturbed at how this thread started about the beating of what I consider a girl-child, has turned into a discussion of what women do to 'cause' said beatings... Highly disturbed...
quote:
Originally posted by shulamite:
quote:
Originally posted by negrospiritual:
In this situation it would be understandable to WANT to knock her out, but it would be unacceptable to do so...


I fully agree. But logic (as is to what is "acceptable") rarely assuages emotion. And all Kweli and ER are saying is that the burden is upon ALL of us to know ahead of time, before sh*t goes down, when emotion is about to win over logic.

For men (and women), that means walking - or even running, if it takes that - away in the heat of a disagreement.

For women (and men), that means not using words to cut like knives.


Shulamite most abuse situations do not work like that..

There is not this neat scenario of some woman running off at the mouth exacerbating some dude's anger until he just has no choice but to beat her.. (okay I couldn't even really write that but I know that's the thinking here.. *sigh*)

A few scenarios:

1. Abuse happens over time.. with the abuser gaining the woman's confidence and slowly manipulating her sense of duty and loyalty through guilt, blame and shame...

2. Abuse happens when an already toxic relationship (they are both yellers) gets taken to the next level by the male who knows what to do to get the woman angry enough to say what he needs to justify taking out his anger..

3.Abuse happens when a man has exacted complete and total authority ruled through fear so that a woman is scared to say anything for fear of her life IF SHE LEAVES.. she becomes paralyzed not knowing who to trust.. (especially if the people outside of her relationship are judging her)

4. Abuse happens when drugs and/or alcohol are involved and both parties thinking is impaired.. and the cycle begins where the woman feels guilty for not being in her right mind to began with...

Not all women come from healthy relationships where they can recognize abuse... Not all women come from unhealthy relationships where they are doomed to abuse.. most of these cases need to be handled delicately and with concern...



these are a few of these types of situations...

pat "Just leave" answers are often more harmful than good .. because it doesn't allow the community to correct their understanding of an often delicate situation... nor does it allow the woman time to assess the very real threat to her life should she leave and allow her to separate fully from an unhealthy situation...
Okay ... I'm tired of the bs and am going to say what's been on my mind for a while, but didn't want to say because, frankly, you and Ms. K. [amongst others], are too emotionally connected to the subject to even consider what I'm about to say.

I submit that my "insensitivity" towards abused women is far less damaging to abused sisters than you, the [non-abused/abuse escaped] "supportive sisters". The ones that support the abused sisters by talking them into believing that, in real life, it's not their fault ... no matter what they did or said ... it's not their fault, that they were subject to abuse. Bottomline, in abuse situations, it matters not whom is at fault, but you supporting them by convincing them that right express one's self, or the right to remain in the relationship/household trumps, doing what one needs to do to preserve one's life, e.g., not saying sh!t that is likely to get your a$$ kicked, is irresponsible.

It is you that, in the name of what should be right, refuse to allow/teach the abused sister that that you yourself know to be true ... that people - no matter what their relationship - do not always act reasonably, responsibly or with dignity and honor; sometimes, for whatever reason, they act the a$$. And when that happens, it incumbent on the abused to leave and you, the "supportive sisters", to do everything possible and necessary to convince the abused sister to save her own life.

We all understand that when in crisis, no one wants or needs to hear how they contributed to their circumstance, what they could have done better or how they could've avoided the situation in the first place. But if you, the "supportive sisters" are still talking exclusively about "you're the victim" once the abused is out of harms way, then you are not being sensitive to the abused sister's most pressing need ... obtaining the tools that she needs to survive. And yes, one of those tools is self-reflection.

I realize that you have now and forever been consigned to the depths of man hell ... but oh well. All I ask is that you pronounce my name right in your evening prayers.
quote:
Originally posted by Khalliqa:
There is not this neat scenario of some woman running off at the mouth exacerbating some dude's anger until he just has no choice but to beat her.. (okay I couldn't even really write that but I know that's the thinking here.. *sigh*)


Sometimes, not in most cases, but sometimes it is. That STILL doesn't excuse him for the act.


quote:
1. Abuse happens over time.. with the abuser gaining the woman's confidence and slowly manipulating her sense of duty and loyalty through guilt, blame and shame...


Agreed.

quote:
2. Abuse happens when an already toxic relationship (they are both yellers) gets taken to the next level by the male who knows what to do to get the woman angry enough to say what he needs to justify taking out his anger..


Also agreed. But this is a cycle that ususally both parties play - as you said - "in an already toxic relationship". But, imo, both parties have to take responsibility for their parts in this scenario.

(...of course, the best answer is to not BE in a toxic relationship where people submit to yelling to work out disagreements...)

quote:
3.Abuse happens when a man has exacted complete and total authority ruled through fear so that a woman is scared to say anything for fear of her life IF SHE LEAVES.. she becomes paralyzed not knowing who to trust.. (especially if the people outside of her relationship are judging her)


Agreed.

quote:
4. Abuse happens when drugs and/or alcohol are involved and both parties thinking is impaired.. and the cycle begins where the woman feels guilty for not being in her right mind to began with...


Agreed.

quote:
"Just leave" answers are often more harmful than good ..


I co-sign this. That advice can also end a woman's life if she doesn't know what she's doing or who she's leaving...

----

Khalliqa, I know because a close relative lived your example # 1 and #3. But unfortunately, she periodically lived #2 (which is what this thread is dealing with). Luckily not #4. What I'm saying is, when I was around her, I saw it all. And there were times that her choice of words was not helpful in de-escalating the disagreement.

It's the truth.
quote:
Originally posted by shulamite:
quote:
Originally posted by Khalliqa:
There is not this neat scenario of some woman running off at the mouth exacerbating some dude's anger until he just has no choice but to beat her.. (okay I couldn't even really write that but I know that's the thinking here.. *sigh*)


Sometimes, not in most cases, but sometimes it is. That STILL doesn't excuse him for the act.


quote:
1. Abuse happens over time.. with the abuser gaining the woman's confidence and slowly manipulating her sense of duty and loyalty through guilt, blame and shame...


Agreed.

quote:
2. Abuse happens when an already toxic relationship (they are both yellers) gets taken to the next level by the male who knows what to do to get the woman angry enough to say what he needs to justify taking out his anger..


Also agreed. But this is a cycle that ususally both parties play - as you said - "in an already toxic relationship". But, imo, both parties have to take responsibility for their parts in this scenario.

(...of course, the best answer is to not BE in a toxic relationship where people submit to yelling to work out disagreements...)

quote:
3.Abuse happens when a man has exacted complete and total authority ruled through fear so that a woman is scared to say anything for fear of her life IF SHE LEAVES.. she becomes paralyzed not knowing who to trust.. (especially if the people outside of her relationship are judging her)


Agreed.

quote:
4. Abuse happens when drugs and/or alcohol are involved and both parties thinking is impaired.. and the cycle begins where the woman feels guilty for not being in her right mind to began with...


Agreed.

quote:
"Just leave" answers are often more harmful than good ..


I co-sign this. That advice can also end a woman's life if she doesn't know what she's doing or who she's leaving...

----

Khalliqa, I know because a close relative lived your example # 1 and #3. But unfortunately, she periodically lived #2 (which is what this thread is dealing with). Luckily not #4. What I'm saying is, when I was around her, I saw it all. And there were times that her choice of words was not helpful in de-escalating the disagreement.

It's the truth.


There are those who believe that when a man cheats its the woman's fault..

and when a man leaves a family its the woman's fault...

Meaning that the woman did not keep herself pretty enough.. she was constantly depressed... or didn't cook his meal right etc.. etc..


Or she was too argumentative.. she lied to him... etc.. etc..

Interestingly this folklore is often challenged by social studies done that reveal that men cheat not out of "lack" at home.. but more like "fulfillment" abroad.. it's a hard concept to grasp because it's not so simple.... as the cause and effect we like to attribute to it...

In other words there could be fulfillment at home but that has no effect on the fulfillment abroad.. whatever is received outside of the home is its own unique satisfaction to the man...

Men don't cheat because of what their wives do or don't do.. but because they want to... it's a decision of how to respond to outside stimulus...

There are men who work through travails with their wives in all of her imperfection and choose not to cheat...

I'm using the male example only because the study is not the same for women.. women typically cheat BECAUSE they feel abandonment from their husbands within the marriage, or they never loved the man in the first place... but that's another story lol... (of course there are exceptions to the rule)


In other words there is a contract and the expectation is one of faithfulness no matter what happens.. there is a normative that becomes broken by a decision made by the man...


In a toxic physical relationship there is a normative.. yelling, screaming, throwing things.. what changes is the man's decision to no longer function at that level and decides to beat her mercilessly...


In a non toxic relationship the man chooses to use any number of reasons to beat her... she didn't cook right.. she forgot to do something she asked.. she should know how angry he gets...


When you tell a woman to stop escalating the situation you are still stuck in the belief that her actions will help control the situation...

Here's the problem.. an abuser does not function from justice.. "If you only talk to me right I won't beat you"... He functions from manipulation and control "If you talk to me right, I'll think you're up to something and beat you for that"...

Women who are trying to escape their husbands began to walk on eggshells to get out of their situation (if they can get to this point because it's very difficult to see the possibility of getting out of this cycle when it becomes a normative and the only "support" you get is the judgmental kind blaming you for his actions)... they are LUCKY if he DECIDES not to do anything but most are not so lucky.. there is always something wrong.. if the man is suspicious because you are too good he will beat you for that...

The nature of abuse can not be viewed through the prism of a normative relationship...

Let's take the worst case scenario.. If a woman is used to "fighting" her man and he fights back then that is a normative for THAT relationship.. she doesn't deem she's getting beat up.. she's just in a destructive relationship... When the man decides to bring his full weight into the situation and terrorize and abuse her then she enters situation #3 above.. and this is what changes things...

In rape cases it is the same way..

Meaning a prostitute ( a woman that sells her body for sex.. and is often aware of the dangers of her trade) can be RAPED.. why? because essentially she is in a situation that is going against her will and can not get out of her own accord in that moment.. He is controlling the situation and rendering her paralyzed with fear.. The man DECIDES to violate her.. He takes "sex" to another level...

Incidentally rape is usually a close cousin to physical abuse...

Blaming the woman only makes the observer feel like justice is served but the truth is in MOST situations a woman's actions does not MAKE a man or INCREASES the likelihood that a man will use abuse as a means of controlling another human being.. Abusers don't function from justice...

Also a toxic relationship is different from an abusive one and here too "advice" is usually from the wrong perspective.. toxic relationships where there is not really abuse so much as dysfunctional expression is usually confused with abuse but the difference is the woman still feels a measure of control.. You can tell this woman to stop and to de-escalate yada yada.. but she won't because she has a measure of control wherein she believes, unhealthily, that relationships function in this manner... This has less to do with the man than how the woman perceives a relationship SHOULD be.. meaning it will take a very long time to cultivate her mind differently... It's akin to trying to teach perfect English diction to someone used to Ebonics.. they are just not used to it and can't really see the point... because what they are doing works just fine for them....

An abusive relationship is one that is ESCALATED by the man.. it is no longer toxic but now TERROR.. and fear and control..


And honestly I feel it is disengenious to focus on toxic relationships because it is a stereotype.. in MOST cases I've counselled the women are in fear of their life desperately trying to do whatever they think will appease the man and sometimes they slip up and think for themselves or do what is normal for a grown woman to do but flies in the face of the man's sense of control and she gets her a** beat... Any SENSE towards independence GREATLY increases the probability that she will encounter more beatings..

Attitudes in the community need to change because they unwittingly empower the abuser... and there are just way too many cases where the reason the woman won't seek help is because frankly there is no one to trust.. not her husband/boyfriend/... she partly believes herself that she is to blame for getting beat.. and her friends and family do too.... Most family members are usually abuse enablers as crazy as that seems..

but after reviewing this thread...

maybe not....
quote:
Originally posted by Khalliqa:

Attitudes in the community need to change because they unwittingly empower the abuser... and there are just way too many cases where the reason the woman won't seek help is because frankly there is no one to trust.. not her husband/boyfriend/... she partly believes herself that she is to blame for getting beat.. and her friends and family do too.... Most family members are usually abuse enablers as crazy as that seems..

but after reviewing this thread...

maybe not....

yeah I find this thread extremely disheartening. I guess part of me was naive enough to believe that as a community, real progress had been made with respect to not blaming the victim. Abuse is not about reason, it is not about justice, it is not about logic, it is not about cause and effect, it is about control.
Peace...



The abuser is always wrong...

Always...

Now...Can the abuser be changed so that he will stop abusing the woman? Who knows..And for that matter who cares?

Abuse is an exigent situation which requires action, and post analysis, but immediate action..What should happen once abuse is discovered? The abused has to be removed from the situation..Either by her own will, or by the will of those who love her...

The very first thing someone will do is appeal to the abused by offering a rational argument for leaving, and in the interim period before leaving, what can be done to avoid further conflagration..Someone who offers such advice is not trying to justify the abuser..They probably would love to hurt the abuser, however, focusing on the abuser is not the important thing..Helping your friend survive is what is priority number one..

Get out of the burning house and then we will deal with finding and prosecuting the arsonist.

Both are extremely important, however one needs to be done immediately..The other shortly thereafter..

Should men abuse or hit a woman?? Never out of anger...If you are poised to strike a woman becuase she angered you as a man you are wrong..If you strike her because you are afraid and this fear is justified by imminent danger..Well, every life form has a right to fight for it's own survival, or to prevent material harm to their person.

Men who abuse women are cowards...Most times they only pull that crap off in private..They know better than to do that Sh** while other men are watching...Because some brothers like myself would not look very favorably on them..Not at all..

We don't know who the abusers are until the sisters speak out..And often in domestic disputes women are quick to jump to the defense of the abuser..

Like so many other social ailments, this can only be properly dealt with with an overhaul of our culture..


Whirling Moat
Changing the attitudes of the community is essential because the attitudes are usually judgmental (often in favor of the abuser) which is why many women don't leave..

Meaning "Why don't you just leave?" "Why don't you just do this or that?"

The appeal is not to logic it is an erroneous appeal laced with judgment and subtle irresponsibility leveled at the victim...

What do you say to someone who is living in fear and/or abused?

Often nothing.. you do more listening than talking.. hoping there is enough time to guide them out of it.. this goes counter to someone who thinks they've figured everything out sensibilities...

You also can lovingly suggest REALISTIC (meaning the local shelter may not be realistic) places to start over and hide but this is such a drastic move some women are more afraid of THAT...

You can offer encouragement and hope the sister will become empowered by your words but if the sister does not consider who you are to her as a person valuable .. you would do better to send someone to her who she does respect... a person can't often tell this themselves..

I can't stand doing this because the truth is most people are very self righteous and judgmental.. I believe people care.. but their caring is tainted with a lot of negativity unwittingly or not.. this does not help the situation at all...

But to gain a woman's trust in a situation where her psyche is held hostage by her abuser.. which is why women often return to the abuser.. ironically she will trust him (becuase that's what they do.. they give the woman enough to make her feel like he's all she's got and everyone else is an outsider)

The problem again is that most people do not see the situation like this.. they see an irresponsible woman letting herself get abused so they approach her in that manner..

again: "Whydontcha just leave" doesn't work...

In addition, we have seen time and time again that you can physically remove a sister from the environment and the laws are not where the man will stay locked up for too long.. even if its years when he gets out he will come to kill her... and of course if his hold over her or her fear of him is great she will choose the "security" of his beat downs over the insecurity of the "world".. in a society that already judges her a lot of important missteps take place in terms of protecting the woman...

women know this.. they know his friends that will act on his behalf etc..

My point is.. again these are delicate situations and the community needs to be re-educated... regarding how to properly handle it...

Here are a few embedded community problems which won't aid abuse victims:

1. Accusations and/or insinuations in attitude of the victim being somehow responsible for the abuse

2. Playing hero and jumping into the situation before understanding the gravity of the dynamics of their relationship...

3. Assuming that police and jail (temporary restraining orders) are enough to stop an abusers vengeance.. (an exception to this is emotional but not physical abusers usually are afraid of police so.. this is a realistic solution for a woman who is being psychologically but not necessarily physically terrorized)

These approaches usually end up in disaster... as always there are exceptions to the rule.. but too often there are not...
quote:
The very first thing someone will do is appeal to the abused by offering a rational argument for leaving, and in the interim period before leaving, what can be done to avoid further conflagration..Someone who offers such advice is not trying to justify the abuser..They probably would love to hurt the abuser, however, focusing on the abuser is not the important thing..Helping your friend survive is what is priority number one..

Get out of the burning house and then we will deal with finding and prosecuting the arsonist.

Both are extremely important, however one needs to be done immediately..The other shortly thereafter..


yeah

Someone please tell me where in this thread blaming the victim came about.

There is a distinct difference between saying: "It is your fault or even your actions caused him to beat you" and "There are things that you can do to stop/prevent him from beating you."

As I see it, the former is, in fact, blaming of the victim, but further is non-solution based and disempowering; whereas the latter does not place blame [because blame doesn't matter, survival and healing is paramount]. Further, the latter is solution-based. Finally, and probably most importantly, the latter is empowering ... giving the victim the tolls [and confidence] to move from this and other abusive situations.

But with that, and barring any objection ... MBM, I request thatyou lock this thread and/or move it to the BIG HOUSE.
quote:
Originally posted by Kweli4Real:
quote:
The very first thing someone will do is appeal to the abused by offering a rational argument for leaving, and in the interim period before leaving, what can be done to avoid further conflagration..Someone who offers such advice is not trying to justify the abuser..They probably would love to hurt the abuser, however, focusing on the abuser is not the important thing..Helping your friend survive is what is priority number one..

Get out of the burning house and then we will deal with finding and prosecuting the arsonist.

Both are extremely important, however one needs to be done immediately..The other shortly thereafter..


yeah

Someone please tell me where in this thread blaming the victim came about.

There is a distinct difference between saying: "It is your fault or even your actions caused him to beat you" and "There are things that you can do to stop/prevent him from beating you."

As I see it, the former is, in fact, blaming of the victim, but further is non-solution based and disempowering; whereas the latter does not place blame [because blame doesn't matter, survival and healing is paramount]. Further, the latter is solution-based. Finally, and probably most importantly, the latter is empowering ... giving the victim the tolls [and confidence] to move from this and other abusive situations.

But with that, and barring any objection ... MBM, I request thatyou lock this thread and/or move it to the BIG HOUSE.


see above ....
quote:
Originally posted by Kweli4Real:

Someone please tell me where in this thread blaming the victim came about.



Here is an example:

quote:
Originally posted by EbonyRose:
quote:
Originally posted by Kweli4Real:
Okay Ko ... Too often we forget to tell our women-childs to keep their hands to themselves.


I understand your point, Kweli .. and agree with Ms. Koco that everybody ought to be taught to keep their hands to themselves.

However ... in my experience, it's not the hands or fists that are usually the women's weapon of choice. It's her mouth that usually causes the most harm ... and/or gets the most harm done to her.

I've known women that have said some things to a man that, if those same things were said to me, I would have beat the shit out of whoever said them, too! Eek

I suppose most think that a verbal assault doesn't/shouldn't have the same impact as a physical one. However, "hurt" can be just as devastating from an emotional/mental standpoint as it can by a physical one. Just because there is no blood doesn't mean there isn't any pain.
For all of this talk about women enraging guys with words, or hitting the man first, aren't the vast majority of domestic violence cases about control, rather than boiling over anger?

Are there any stats on that? Because the Ike & Tina type of violence was supposed to be the standard scenario, where it's fundamentally about control.

It was the same thing with the girl in Chicago. I think we had a thread about it, where the boyfriend didn't want her going anywhere, didn't like her doing well at work, and slowly started getting violent until he killed her. Is this the less common variety of domestic abuse? Is it more common for dudes to just snap and smack a woman who's provoking him?
quote:
Originally posted by kresge:
quote:
Originally posted by Khalliqa:

Attitudes in the community need to change because they unwittingly empower the abuser... and there are just way too many cases where the reason the woman won't seek help is because frankly there is no one to trust.. not her husband/boyfriend/... she partly believes herself that she is to blame for getting beat.. and her friends and family do too.... Most family members are usually abuse enablers as crazy as that seems..

but after reviewing this thread...

maybe not....

yeah I find this thread extremely disheartening. I guess part of me was naive enough to believe that as a community, real progress had been made with respect to not blaming the victim. Abuse is not about reason, it is not about justice, it is not about logic, it is not about cause and effect, it is about control.


yeah and... I object to this thread being locked or sent to the Big house... I'm also very confused to why such a suggestion would be made... With all the thread of folks cussing each other out ect., why suggest locking or moving this one? Confused
quote:
Originally posted by EbonyRose:
quote:
Originally posted by Vox:
ER, are you trying to explain the "explanation vs. justification" point again? I guess you didn't learn your lesson from the last time. I know I did! giveup


LOL ... that's probably what took me so long to decide to leap off into it again! Big Grin

That thread was exhausting, wasn't it?? lol

But ... on a serious note ... ignorance is notI bliss. sck And when it comes to trying to stop my sisters from hurting themselves through the way they allow men to hurt them ... I just can't learn that lesson or stop trying to explain. Smile

I ain't stupid, though! In this instance, I know my $500 bucks is gonna stay $$$ in the bank! Big Grin appl


Well, I'm going to try to work this out.

Khalliqa and NS. I recently joined a new group on Meetup.com. I haven't gone to a Meetup, but apparently a group of about 6 of them, including the group organizer, held a movie night last Friday. According to a group e-mail the moderator sent, there was only one guy at this event. Says the moderator, the guy was very rude, verbally abusive, and threatening. He made the night pretty lousy for everyone, and the moderator has since banned him from the group.

Although the group is thin on guys, she cut him, and when she stated so, she made the comment that, "he's no loss, ladies; he was just an Ike looking for his Tina."

There is a difference between blame for an incident that has happened and a prescription for prudent behavior taken to prevent the likelihood of future abuse (i.e., a LESSON LEARNED).

The moderator COULD have kept this gentleman in the group, not warning the women in the group about him, thereby allowing him to meet some female member who wasn't there last week, and slowly develop the relationship into an abusive one. Or, she could have said, "Listen girls, he was cute and had a good job, so he's still a good catch, and if he does end up abusing you, it's all his fault no matter what, even if you bitingly criticize his manhood, so go ahead and do whatever and don't worry."

The absurdity of that last option leads me to doubt that either of you seriously agree with it. But this is fundamentally the distinction that's being made on this thread by K4R, ER and others.

We teach young men to be polite during a police stop. But even if they're rude and nasty, we still don't give the cop a pass for a needless shooting. Similarly, we don't let the abuser off the hook in a domestic violence situation, even though we're still able to counsel would-be victims on the behavior dos and don'ts.
quote:
Originally posted by Khalliqa:
In a toxic physical relationship there is a normative.. yelling, screaming, throwing things.. what changes is the man's decision to no longer function at that level and decides to beat her mercilessly...


But it changes along a *continuum* of bad behavior. It's not that the man is under control and then makes this cataclysmic leap to punching. The toxicity functions much like a "sigmoidal curve" in biochemistry kinetics. The longer the "yelling, screaming, throwing things.." goes on, the faster it goes and the more it escalates to something else. It's not about someone needing to be in control. It's about emotions going haywire. The control stuff happens in your scenarios #1 and #3.

And there can be a point of no return, where the reaction WILL move forward period (to put it on a happy note, it's kind of like sex; you can have increasing foreplay/making out all day long and then stop but once the clothes come off, it's very hard if not damn near impossible to reverse the outcome).

What I'm saying is that it is incumbent for both parties to make sure the reaction (of violence) doesn't get to the point of no return.


quote:
When you tell a woman to stop escalating the situation you are still stuck in the belief that her actions will help control the situation...


No I'm not "stuck" in the belief. But a woman's action (at the right time) CAN guide some situations.

quote:
The nature of abuse can not be viewed through the prism of a normative relationship...



I'm viewing this through the eyes of someone who saw, in her relative's life, anything BUT a normative relationship and I am telling you that she sometimes contributed needlessly to the "forward reaction" with her words. He was a horrid abuser but there were some times she abused him with words. And he hit back in the only way he knew how.

As to your other points...

I am not blaming the woman. I am not empowering the abuser. I am saying that all adults need to know how to de-escalate an argument. Read John Gottman on this to learn why it is critically important to know how to "fight fairly" to keep it from going there.

quote:
Originally posted by Vox:
The absurdity of that last option leads me to doubt that either of you seriously agree with it. But this is fundamentally the distinction that's being made on this thread by K4R, ER and others.


Right. I don't think that this can be written any clearer than that, frankly. This is, I think, a distinction either people get or they don't.
quote:
Originally posted by shulamite:

As to your other points...

I am not blaming the woman. I am not empowering the abuser. I am saying that all adults need to know how to de-escalate an argument. Read John Gottman on this to learn why it is critically important to know how to "fight fairly" to keep it from going there.


You will probably need to say this about 99 more times before anything near comprehension starts to sink in. Wink

We have had this discussion before .. and, it has not progressed much past the first time we had it.

Perhaps (hopefully) those who are not understanding it now, will grow into the knowledge with maturity. With age comes wisdom. On that you can bet. And sometimes, it's the only way to acquire it.

Baby steps. Smile
quote:
Originally posted by Vox:
We teach young men to be polite during a police stop. But even if they're rude and nasty, we still don't give the cop a pass for a needless shooting.


Brothers get shot by police for being rude and nasty? News to me...

quote:
Similarly, we don't let the abuser off the hook in a domestic violence situation, even though we're still able to counsel would-be victims on the behavior dos and don'ts.


Similarly, was Tina really giving lip to Ike? Most of the women I've known who have gotten beat are pretty sheepish... and just like with polic shootings/brutality, it's largely the mindset of the perpetrator/abuser that's all screwy.
Originally posted by Negrospiritual
quote:
There is no valid reason for a beatdown of your romantic partner. NONE.


Sista Negrospiritual….I agree that there isn't a valid reason why there's a beatdown but there are "reasons" why one may feel compelled to do so. For example it may NOT make sense to us why a man/woman will bust someone up side the head just for using words i.e. "you're stupid!" but children/adolescent masqarading themselves as "adults" do it all the time. Why? Because their cognitive ability STILL HAVE NOT matured/developed enough to allow them to think logically and sensibly to understand that you do not hit. If they did understand this as adults, domestic violence would not be such an issue as it is today and has been for several years. It is hard to believe that many think for example...."that's how we[men] do it back in the day i.e. Slap a hoe if she disrespects me or I'm a man you do what I say or else" is all right and normal thinking. And it is extremely difficult believing that those cruel mentalities still exist in our culture even though it makes no sense at all. We should have evolved from this long ago. But clearly we haven't.

However, it is easy to go back and forth as to the dynamics and manipulations of words having no direct influence on one's action...but! Ask that person WHY were they provoked to hit and they will say time after time...cuz she/he said "this or that and it made me MAD cuz I felt disrespected. So I hit him/her" And you say to them WTF?...and that person is completely seriously and committed to that asine perspective and it frightening cuz they think it's all the justification they need "to let a ho/mofo know who's they fockin' with." Hence, in their mind....legitimatizing and validating their "REASON" for conducting themselves violently. To the civilize world this is NOT jusitification to conduct violence on another person....but! I see this all the time in adolescent behavior. Especially when the adolescent is slow in development but grown in every sense of the word including age. fro
quote:
Originally posted by shulamite:
quote:
Originally posted by Khalliqa:
In a toxic physical relationship there is a normative.. yelling, screaming, throwing things.. what changes is the man's decision to no longer function at that level and decides to beat her mercilessly...


But it changes along a *continuum* of bad behavior. It's not that the man is under control and then makes this cataclysmic leap to punching.


Of course.. I never said it happened spontaneously *sigh* I'm noting a demarcation that's all.. Plus, I've already expressed this sentiment.. You agreed when I wrote this before, so I'm not sure why you are repeating my statement again:


quote:
Originally posted by Shulamite:
quote:
Originally posted by Khalliqa:

1. Abuse happens over time.. with the abuser gaining the woman's confidence and slowly manipulating her sense of duty and loyalty through guilt, blame and shame...




Agreed.


quote:
It's not about someone needing to be in control. It's about emotions going haywire. The control stuff happens in your scenarios #1 and #3.


I'm sorry but please visit any battered women's counseling center for some time.. you will find that control over the woman is an overwhelming reason for the great majority of scenarios... the reason why the woman is in fear for her life.. confused about her rights.. and distrustful is because someone has control over her sense of self protection.. abusers know this and manipulate it..

quote:



What I'm saying is that it is incumbent for both parties to make sure the reaction (of violence) doesn't get to the point of no return.


I think in a toxic relationship where there is no control issue but two out of control mean spirited physically violent people that may make sense..

but that relationship is different from the type of abuse that commonly occurs.. and that is a situation where the woman is in fear.. it seems like the scenario you are describing is a mutually degrading toxic relationship.. but this is the scenario I called toxic.. and has no bearing on the majority of abuse cases... where the women seek shelters out of fear.. not to just get a break from a violent relationship.. (meaning that's how they relate to each other...)



quote:
quote:
When you tell a woman to stop escalating the situation you are still stuck in the belief that her actions will help control the situation...


No I'm not "stuck" in the belief. But a woman's action (at the right time) CAN guide some situations.


Regarding the situations we have been describing.. yes you are.. regarding the situation you are describing.. perhaps not.. the thinking for one situation can not be brought into the other scenario...



quote:
quote:
The nature of abuse can not be viewed through the prism of a normative relationship...



I'm viewing this through the eyes of someone who saw, in her relative's life, anything BUT a normative relationship and I am telling you that she sometimes contributed needlessly to the "forward reaction" with her words. He was a horrid abuser but there were some times she abused him with words. And he hit back in the only way he knew how.


Normative in this case simply means what happens frequently.. there are cases of toxic relationships that follow a pattern and become a normative for TOXIC relationships.. Normative does not mean healthy.. just frequent..

I can't really comment on a specific situation I am unfamiliar with.. I would have to know more about their particular relationship .. but my off hand assessment would not be that the problem is her talking back.. where someone would read that automatically as cause- her talking effect- he hits back..

that lays blame to her immediately..

I would first look to see if the scenario is not actually...

cause- his beating her down

has the effect of

- her struggling to hold on to whatever dignity is left and is fighting back with words...

You could very well be right.. she may just be a sado masochist and just get off on talking so he can beat her.. or she may be fighting for her sanity and the only instinctive way she knows to let him know he doesn't have the best of her is to curse him out.. or lash out with her tongue...

If it is the latter she won't leave until she feels like she can have a life without him.... she remained there for some reason.. the quest is to find out what that is.. before I would lay cause at her feet though...

Ultimately I pray she gets the real help she needs...

But who knows.. ER has told the tale of how she once counseled what she considered "WEAK" women out of abusive relationships by giving them a piece of her mind ...

*damn weak women letting themselves get abused.. damnit.. don't you know you're better than the trifling woman I see before me?? I mean why you keep ticking ray ray off? get your a** outta that abusive situation before I.. I..*

oh.. sorry the dramatics just highlight the sentiment so much better than the colorful BS spewed from big words.. where was I?


If an abused woman responds to this tougher love than what she's getting at home.. so be it..


or there are other options available than looking down upon the one you're trying to uplift..

With regards to this,I believe you expressed it best..

quote:
Originally posted by Shulamite:



I don't think that this can be written any clearer than that, frankly. This is, I think, a distinction either people get or they don't.



@Vox:

The problem with your scenario is that the attitude displayed in sentiments like "She got her a** beat* or "I would beat the sh*T out of her too" or "he hit back in the only way he knew how are what we call judgmental and/or abusive enabling words that more fully round out and give context to the positions they've taken.. I'm sorry sentiments like that just don't jive with someone being desirous of preventing future behavior.. it belies the sentiment of someone who is irritated with a behavior and wants it to stop because it seems ridiculous to them...

the former being genuine humanitarian concern.. the latter being negatively judgmental and haughty

as they observe an ABUSE VICTIM..

let's not forget that we have taken this discussion away from any sympathy for the victim... and that is the point ..

in addition, the solution expressed "stop pissing ray ray off" doesn't solve anything...

just makes the observer feel better...

control situations don't always function like we want them to...
quote:
Originally posted by Khalliqa:
quote:
Originally posted by shulamite:It's not about someone needing to be in control. It's about emotions going haywire. The control stuff happens in your scenarios #1 and #3.


I'm sorry but please visit any battered women's counseling center for some time.. you will find that control over the woman is an overwhelming reason for the great majority of scenarios...



Khalliqa. Read carefully. I'm not talking about "the great majority of scenarios". I'm talking about scenario #2 - which you posited in your own post. And of which you yourself say below...


quote:
quote:
Originally posted by shulamite:What I'm saying is that it is incumbent for both parties to make sure the reaction (of violence) doesn't get to the point of no return.


I think in a toxic relationship where there is no control issue but two out of control mean spirited physically violent people that may make sense..


We aren't disagreeing. And, futhermore, THIS is exactly what Kweli and EbonyRose have argued for all along... sck
I've said in the other thread and I will say here: there is absolutely no excuse for a Man, who's calling HimSelf a Man, to put his hands on a Woman.

There's no argument regarding whether or not she deserved it, because Mature Men were brought up in the School of Thought that real Mean don't hit Women....for a whole host of reasons. MoreOver, if Men are going to claim being the "head", then it goes WithOut saying that they must exercise some serious restraint when situations like these arise.

Now, that is not saying that I condone a Woman beating up or abusing a Man. I, too, believe that words can hurt and can be a form of abuse...and I believe that some Women can and do use words as a means to inflict harm upon a Man....and while I believe that this should be avoided at all costs, I DO NOT UNDERSTAND THE LOGIC that one's mouth can be used as a defense for SomeOne's InAbility to control ThemSelves.

As I was saying in the "Bitter Black Women" thread, each person is Responsible for his or her own behavior, ReGardLess of what another does. That means if a person is inflicting harm upon another, MAN OR WOMAN, then they should be held to the same standards set forth WithIn the legal arena.

"Wisdom Is A Real Woman!"
quote:
Originally posted by shulamite:
quote:
Originally posted by Khalliqa:
quote:
Originally posted by shulamite:It's not about someone needing to be in control. It's about emotions going haywire. The control stuff happens in your scenarios #1 and #3.


I'm sorry but please visit any battered women's counseling center for some time.. you will find that control over the woman is an overwhelming reason for the great majority of scenarios...



Khalliqa. Read carefully. I'm not talking about "the great majority of scenarios". I'm talking about scenario #2 - which you posited in your own post. And of which you yourself say below...


What I stated was this:

"2. Abuse happens when an already toxic relationship (they are both yellers) gets taken to the next level by the male who knows what to do to get the woman angry enough to say what he needs to justify taking out his anger.."


I've tried to give you the benefit of the doubt.. but either you are being insincere or you are not reading properly... #2 states A situation where a male takes advantage of a woman's emotions so that he can JUSTIFY beating her..

The man calculates and plans on this so he can CONTROL her..


But the great majority of scenarios are NOT the situation where you have a woman who just sado masochistically taunts a man whose going to beat her.. Most scenarios are of a woman completely manipulated and controlled by her male partner...

We do not place in the same category with abused women, two sado masochistic people going after each other... why you all are doing this is ridiculous to me... and really just evil...


quote:




quote:
quote:
Originally posted by shulamite:What I'm saying is that it is incumbent for both parties to make sure the reaction (of violence) doesn't get to the point of no return.


I think in a toxic relationship where there is no control issue but two out of control mean spirited physically violent people that may make sense..


We aren't disagreeing. And, futhermore, THIS is exactly what Kweli and EbonyRose have argued for all along... sck



Now you're being disingenuous.. because you did not post the clarifier right after the initial paragraph...
quote:
Originally posted by Khalliqa:


I think in a toxic relationship where there is no control issue but two out of control mean spirited physically violent people that may make sense..

but that relationship is different from the type of abuse that commonly occurs.. and that is a situation where the woman is in fear.. it seems like the scenario you are describing is a mutually degrading toxic relationship.. but this is the scenario I called toxic.. and has no bearing on the majority of abuse cases... where the women seek shelters out of fear.. not to just get a break from a violent relationship.. (meaning that's how they relate to each other...)


The majority of cases are what are important because they set the standard of abuse.. however each case must be weighed individually so that one knows what are the appropriate measures to take to aid the woman...


Why you all have chosen to focus on a situation where a woman is in control and equate this with the majority of abuse cases , I don't know.. perhaps to satisfy your need to blame the victim?

I won't speculate any futher, but the great majority of abuse cases are about control.. and have NOTHING to do with what a woman has done to her abuser to GET him to beat her..

I pray that there will never be a woman in your vicinity that would have to lean on any of you for help..

She would not receive it.. she would be further punished through your inability for sympathy regarding her situation and your arrogance regarding what you think you know about the level of control she has.. and would cause more harm than good...

scroll up and read about women getting killed for trying to get away too soon.. the hero syndrome or beating up the woman in ADDITION to her abuse at home by "well meaning" friends and family.. abuse doesn't work like that...


I find this whole thread disgusting...

and the victim blaming attitudes even more so...
Last edited {1}
quote:
Originally posted by kresge:
quote:
Originally posted by Khalliqa:

Attitudes in the community need to change because they unwittingly empower the abuser... and there are just way too many cases where the reason the woman won't seek help is because frankly there is no one to trust.. not her husband/boyfriend/... she partly believes herself that she is to blame for getting beat.. and her friends and family do too.... Most family members are usually abuse enablers as crazy as that seems..

but after reviewing this thread...

maybe not....

yeah I find this thread extremely disheartening. I guess part of me was naive enough to believe that as a community, real progress had been made with respect to not blaming the victim. Abuse is not about reason, it is not about justice, it is not about logic, it is not about cause and effect, it is about control.


appl Well said, Kresge.

I can't believe folk are saying (in essense) 'words' can cause physical abuse (in an abusive relationship). Eek

The bottom-line is 'words' don't compare to 'hitting', leaving bruises or an 'all around' 'azz whipping'.

Wow. unbelievable. The message I'm getting is

a woman better watch what she says

or the man is justified in kicking her azz.

THAT is beyond sick.

It's ALL about 'control'
quote:
Originally posted by Huey:
quote:
Originally posted by EbonyRose:
quote:
Originally posted by ocatchings:
Well all the talk of whose right or wrong has been a waste.
I have officially lost all respect for both parties. Why would she go back?
http://www.people.com/people/a.../0,,20262240,00.html


Because she 'loves' him. Roll Eyes


And she can "change" him. bang Roll Eyes


Yeah ... that too. sck

As stong an emotion as love is ... it IS just an emotion. And with all emotions ... the person experiencing them can/will/does eventually get past/over it, when the time comes to let it go.

I wish she would realize that *love* ain't got nothin' to do with an ass beating. And is no reason to give him the opportunity to do it again. sck
quote:
Originally posted by negrospiritual:
I wonder if going back will have a negative effect on her career, considering the public outpouring of sympathy and support for her? 19


I don't think so.. but I'm not sure.. I think people will probably act like she may..

They will be stunned..

confused...

but if the stars are able to "dazzle" them... and make them "remember" why they loved them in the first place they will forget the incident and write it off as a "fluke"...

unless it happens again...

If they become very good at wooing the public.. the public will overlook the "transgression of abuse"...

Someone pointed out "James Brown" and that's a good point..

Much of the general public is as uninformed as most susceptible women about the nature and cycle of abuse...

But this could be just a dysfunctional relationship wherein Rihanna feels as if she has a certain amount of control..

She is not seeking help...

Honestly, although I'm participating, speculating like this makes me uncomfortable... because we REALLY don't know much about the nature of their relationship.. at that is key to assessing something like this accurately...

So I don't truly know what to make of it.. in her case other than as a rule, no woman deserves to be beaten...
These two are not unlike any other type of couple that has had BOUNDARY issues in their relationship.

You have to be prepared to BOUNCE whenever things even start to LOOK toxic.

Everyone should keep their hands to themselves.. and blah blah blah.. that's a given.

But everyone should WATCH their mouth too.

People despise being single and celibate so much that they'd let people talk to them ANY kinda way.

You yell or curse at me once - you get a final written warning. The next time it happens - I will walk.

This should be EASY for non-married people. For married folks, you better have some real courage. I'm not saying you should get a divorce, but a separation IS in order when that sort of thing happens.

People have to take responsibility for every WORD and DEED they manifest. Period.

And I can tell that more than a few of you sisters have no problem being mean and verbally abusive to your partner. I wouldn't hit you - I'd just pack up my shit and leave and wish you the best.

Too many fish in the sea to engage with a rank and contentious woman - OR man.
quote:
Originally posted by THEBIGDODDY:

And I can tell that more than a few of you sisters have no problem being mean and verbally abusive to your partner. I wouldn't hit you - I'd just pack up my shit and leave and wish you the best.


I guess that's why the domestic violence shelters are constantly full of women and their children seeking to escape beatings, stabbings, broken bones, chronic verbal putdowns and death...
quote:
Originally posted by THEBIGDODDY:

Oh, and I'm not about or interested in that dominant/submissive role play either.

I believe in mutual submission/partnership and respect. You take turns doing EVERYTHING. You resolve conflict through contrition and understanding, not asserting your will over another person.



But you promised you would wear the studded collar on thursday nights Confused

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