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There are a number of members here who believe that we should reject attempting to work within the American system that has enslaved us. It certainly is a valid perspective to believe that America will never grant African Americans the measure of freedom and opportunity that are due us. That said, though, what is the alternative? If we are to stay here in the U.S. how do we achieve the kinds of gains that are necessary to move our communities forward, to secure a "better life" for our children? Certainly "organization" is a key tactic; we will never collectively achieve anything without it. Nevertheless, what are the strategies to progress? If we remove ourselves from "the system" what are some of the things that black people can do to create progress for ourselves in the many ways that we need to? Some favor armed insurrection to force America to concede to our demands. Others suggest leaving altogether. IMHO it seems like those represent extreme ends of the spectrum of options. Is there anything in between?

I am sincerely interested in your thoughts.

© MBM

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My suggestion is long-standing. I offer it again as 'part of the mix.'

I believe ancestral nationality is the first step to acquiring our fair share, and proper position if American society.

I believe ancestral nationality is the reconstruction that can recover many of children with a socially aberrant behavior.

I believe this will in turn save many, and salvage others from the clutches of America's jurisprudence trap.

I also believe ancestral nationality will help fill the void left by often lamented family structure. It will not replace that need, help in meeting the function.

I also believe ancestral nationality will be the interdiction needed to defeat the current language and methods of our society which are designed to marginalize us as a people.

I also believe ancestral nationality will provide the foundation to enable us to think politically as a people, and with less vulnerability to every appeal to religious vulnerabilities. Witness Election 2004.

I could go on, but I think the idea is clear.

PEACE

Jim Chester
quote:
Originally posted by MBM:
There are a number of members here who believe that we should reject attempting to work within the American system that has enslaved us. It certainly is a valid perspective to believe that America will never grant African Americans the measure of freedom and opportunity that are due us. That said, though, what is the alternative?...

Some favor armed insurrection to force America to concede to our demands. Others suggest leaving altogether. IMHO it seems like those represent extreme ends of the spectrum of options. Is there anything in between?

I am sincerely interested in your thoughts.


Revolution is extreme. There is no "in between". "In between" and "alternatives" to revolution... aren't revolution by definition. No offense meant by this, but it sounds more like you are talking about suggestions for "Evolution 2005".
There's nothing wrong with evolution, if that is your political objective. It's just not the same thing as revolution. Progressive evolutionaries and revolutionaries can come together in solidarity for specific issues that they have commen interests in, but we also must know and respect and be clear where we differ when defining our said fronts and sometimes very different overall objectives.
"Some favor armed insurrection to force America to concede to our demands. Others suggest leaving altogether. IMHO it seems like those represent extreme ends of the spectrum of options. Is there anything in between?"

In the middle is education, hard work, unification, and integration. Secularism and racism must be eliminated nationwide in order to achieve a better society for future generations.
quote:
Originally posted by Oshun Auset:
quote:
Originally posted by MBM:
There are a number of members here who believe that we should reject attempting to work within the American system that has enslaved us. It certainly is a valid perspective to believe that America will never grant African Americans the measure of freedom and opportunity that are due us. That said, though, what is the alternative?...

Some favor armed insurrection to force America to concede to our demands. Others suggest leaving altogether. IMHO it seems like those represent extreme ends of the spectrum of options. Is there anything in between?

I am sincerely interested in your thoughts.


Revolution is extreme. There is no "in between". "In between" and "alternatives" to revolution... aren't revolution by definition. No offense meant by this, but it sounds more like you are talking about suggestions for "Evolution 2005".
There's nothing wrong with evolution, if that is your political objective. It's just not the same thing as revolution. Progressive evolutionaries and revolutionaries can come together in solidarity for specific issues that they have commen interests in, but we also must know and respect and be clear where we differ when defining our said fronts and sometimes very different overall objectives.


What I am trying to better understand is the "overall objectives" that you refer to. What exactly are revolutionaries fighting for? Freedom? What does that mean in America in 2005+? What do revolutionaries want? And just as importantly, how is that objective won? What is the plan? Again, "organization" is a tactic. What exactly do revolutionaries want people to do (once organized) and toward what end? Should we be thinking about Castro and Guevarra in the woods plotting to take down the government or is there some other framework that we should be thinking about?

What, generally, is the vision and the model to get us there?
quote:
Originally posted by MBM:
What I am trying to better understand is the "overall objectives" that you refer to. What exactly are revolutionaries fighting for? Freedom? What does that mean in America in 2005+? What do revolutionaries want? And just as importantly, how is that objective won? What is the plan? Again, "organization" is a tactic. What exactly do revolutionaries want people to do (once organized) and toward what end? Should we be thinking about Castro and Guevarra in the woods plotting to take down the government or is there some other framework that we should be thinking about?

What, generally, is the vision and the model to get us there?


Well, speaking on the Pan-African front(there are many different revolutionary organizations... One would have to stop limiting the African revolution to the continent of North Amerikkka. The African revolution will primarily take place in Africa. The African diaspora will be the beneficiaries of a liberated and united Africa. Much like the Chinese diapsora benefitted from a liberated unified and socialist China.

The objective of the revolutionary organization I am a part of is the total liberation and unification of Africa under scientific socialism.

Of course military action will be necessary but the prime concern for Pan-African revolutionaries and militants is political and ideological education and training. We are lacking in the immaterial as a people. The only way mass political eduaction and idiological training can take place is through the vehicle(tactic) of organization.

African people in the Carribean(including Cuba) and South Amerikkka have a better chance of trying to have an actual African revolution in the countries they reside in because they are the numerical majority. But their efforts at AFRICAN liberation will be ill fated if the Continent isn't free.

There eventually will be a people's revolution in Amerikkka also. But that will be from a coalition of different revolutionary organizations. We Africans can't retain a liberated status even if a(not THE) revolution occurs here unless we take care of our homework(home base) first... A good example is Cuba. Although the African personality is better respected in socialist Cuba...It won't be liberated and totally respected until the African continent is.

If you want more details about gorilla tactics ect that is not my specialty, I deal mainly with organization and political education. Since that is what we are so sorely lacking.
If you were looking for an AFRICAN revolution to occure in Amerikkka...it isn't going to happen IMO. A socialist revolution will occur eventually... An indigenous revolution maybe(but I doubt it because of a sheer lack numbers...although a socialist revolution would assist their movement)but an African revolution can only take place in Africa.

That is not to say progressive movements that make things better for African people in particular and all people in general are being ignored by Pan-Africanists...quite to the contrary. That is why solidarity is formed. A good example of this would be the reparations movement.

Many of the future plans will have to be made via democratic centralism.
quote:
If we remove ourselves from "the system" what are some of the things that black people can do to create progress for ourselves in the many ways that we need to? Some favor armed insurrection to force America to concede to our demands. Others suggest leaving altogether. IMHO it seems like those represent extreme ends of the spectrum of options. Is there anything in between?
Well, slightly differing from Oshun... I view even a movement towards "insurrection" as an evolutionary one. There is no way a critical mass or sizeable contingent of Black people are ready for 'armed struggle'. So, IMO, if those things are desirable (something we believe will have the desired effect) then our plan and role now, IMO, is to make it possible in the future by laying the groundwork today.

I don't understand the "remove ourselves from the system" comment. There is a difference between having faith that "working within the system" will be a way to gain "freedom" or what-have-you and not having that expectation. An expectation or idea that apparently hasn't convinced those who hold that view. So the difference is one of a different mindset. A different approach. That different approach, IMO, is to have a transitional plan.

A Transitional Plan means that we are in the "system" but at the same time doing everything in our power to establish and make viable our own structures to, at the very least, sustain us if not now then as soon as possible.

Again, I view that as something evolutionary. Something we have to build up to. But, without the faith to believe that its worthwhile or function or necessary... we will never build anything. Instead, we will just continue to return to these questions.

So the overall objective is to have our own institutions on every level to provide for ourselves, IMO. Now, the critical things is seize control over our socialization and education. How else can we expect to accomplish anything if we're not controlling the content and the context of our people's education? We definitely don't have and won't get a collective mindset to even come close to Revolutionary confrontation by being educated by the very "system" we see as problematic.

MBM, seriously... I would like to know who you were referencing. I don't know "a number of members" who have forwarded those ideas you put forth. You make it sound like everyone who doesn't subscribe to the "working within the system" idea actually have put forth those ideas I quoted.

I say that because I know I've been very critically of the "working within the system" idea and not a one of those things I quoted from you approximates anything I've said. So, please... who are the members who voiced those "extreme" ideas.

Me, I think it all has to do with education. Us reclaiming our right, our duty and obligation to educate our own towards our own purposes and organizing our community and national life around that.
We definitely don't have and won't get a collective mindset to even come close to Revolutionary confrontation by being educated by the very "system" we see as problematic.---Nmaginate

I can't imagine a thinking person cannot agree with that.

As you know, I don't see our solution being achieved by force. In my mind, that is nonesensical.

However, by whatever means, the end result will be the a reversal.

Maybe evolutionary revolution.

Maybe revolutionary evolution.

In no case can it happen without us changing our defintion of ourselves in our society.

That is something we must do.

It cannot, in fact, be done for us.

We are, each, saying it differently, but we are essentially saying the same thing.


PEACE

Jim Chester

PEACE

Jim Chester
quote:
Originally posted by Nmaginate:

I don't understand the "remove ourselves from the system" comment. There is a difference between having faith that "working within the system" will be a way to gain "freedom" or what-have-you and not having that expectation.


It would seem that if one does not have faith that "the system" is a source of solutions, then (if they are committed to progress) they must therefore believe that the asnwers lie outside of the system.

quote:
A Transitional Plan means that we are in the "system" but at the same time doing everything in our power to establish and make viable our own structures to, at the very least, sustain us if not now then as soon as possible.


This makes sense and is the kind of thing I was looking for.

quote:
Again, I view that as something evolutionary. Something we have to build up to. But, without the faith to believe that its worthwhile or function or necessary... we will never build anything. Instead, we will just continue to return to these questions.


Faith is something that people buy into. Without a clear vision to focus the mind and energy, there can be no faith. That's part of why I started this thread, to attempt to better clarify what some of the 'out of the system' solutions might be.

quote:
So the overall objective is to have our own institutions on every level to provide for ourselves, IMO.


In your opinion, does this occur within America or outside of it - or does it matter? I guess what I'm asking is what is the level of "control" that you envision?

quote:
Now, the critical things is seize control over our socialization and education.


AGREE!

quote:
We definitely don't have and won't get a collective mindset to even come close to Revolutionary confrontation by being educated by the very "system" we see as problematic.


AGREE!!

quote:
MBM, seriously... I would like to know who you were referencing. I don't know "a number of members" who have forwarded those ideas you put forth.


Members, off the top of my head, who have expressed ideas that the system may not be the answer are you, Oshun Auset, Faheem, AudioGuy, soul_doctor73. You remeber Noah The African from a year or so ago perhaps as well. Others have embraced both revolution and repatriation in the past.

quote:
You make it sound like everyone who doesn't subscribe to the "working within the system" idea actually have put forth those ideas I quoted.


I made no such claim. As I said, the point of the thread is to flesh out the various approaches to liberation - outside of working the system. For example it seeems that you have an approach while Oshun Auset has another. I am interested in those approaches - in understanding what they have in common and in how they differ.

quote:
I say that because I know I've been very critically of the "working within the system" idea and not a one of those things I quoted from you approximates anything I've said. So, please... who are the members who voiced those "extreme" ideas.


Respectfully, it seems like you're being argumentative here. I defined a continuum with armed insurrection on one end and repatriation on the other and asked if there are any (out of the system) solutions in between. What does that have to do with you?

quote:
Me, I think it all has to do with education. Us reclaiming our right, our duty and obligation to educate our own towards our own purposes and organizing our community and national life around that.


I couldn't agree with you more.
Well, while I can't say that I reject working from within the system, I definitely don't believe that that's going to be the way to get us to where we want to go. The suggestions contained on the National Urban League Report on Black America thread you posted are excellent (a little far-reaching at this point, I think) but unquestionably necessary and would yield extraordinary results.

With that said, an alternative would be to not only organize, but to organize to what end. What is our desination? Economic power. Quality education. Access to capital. Triving communities. Strong families.

If a law is not going to get us that (and at this point, they're even taking back the ones they do eventually manage to give us) then we need to be turning our attention to getting it ourselves. We have at least one of us in just about every sector of society. We have our doctors, our lawyers, our accountants, our bankers, our rich and famous, artsists, scientists, big business people, etc. Organization would bring us together, and our mission and goal should be to turn that back onto ourselves and create schools that educate our children and neighborhoods that have everything we need for survival. Businesses, trades, professional services, our own theaters and entertainment establishes. Things like that. We should, with a strong economic plan in hand, seek to establish ourselves as a strong, capable, talented, interested and educated people. We can't convince anybody else we are that until we are able to convince ourselves.

Also, I believe that as far as trying to work within the system is concerned, only once we are in a position to really play the game of the system, will we have any effectiveness in it. The only thing the system understands is money. Oh, and power. And without either one of them, they aren't going to be listening to us or anybody else!! Eek The Hispanic population will probably get recognition before we do, because they have numbers ... and there is power in that.

But, if the dollars we spend in their businesses were suddenly taken out of their coffers and ended up as a form of "clout" in ours, you can best believe they would be willing to play by our rules a lot faster to get it back!!

To me, the revolution should not fighting to try to force our enemy into submission ... but rather to use our force to build ourselves up and out. To get ourselves strong. To mind our own business. To heal our own sick and support our own welfare. And any help we get from the other side (within the system), whatever gains we may make, are welcomed and no doubt can be/will be used to our advantage when it becomes available. The more the merrier! Smile
We should, with a strong economic plan in hand, seek to establish ourselves as a strong, capable, talented, interested and educated people. We can't convince anybody else we are that until we are able to convince ourselves.---EbonyRose

This is the statement I think is basic to every position I have seen posted on this issue. I certainly is basic to mine.

I call that beginning 'Identity'.

I see identity as the foundation of everything.

From personal issues to Pan-Africanism.


PEACE

Jim Chester
quote:
Faith is something that people buy into. Without a clear vision to focus the mind and energy, there can be no faith. That's part of why I started this thread, to attempt to better clarify what some of the 'out of the system' solutions might be.
Unfortunately, IMO, it will take a critical mass with a particular sizeable following to accomplish larger revolutionary goals. I don't see that happening until our education is back in our hands so to speak.

Honestly, the feeling is mutual. I don't see the "working the system" vision or at least not one that's aimed at the objectives it seems most of us across the board deem important.

The vision for Working Outside The System is a means and ends unto itself. It's a matter of principle. That alone is a vision that's worthwhile.

I do submit that it's particularly asking for more from non-conformists (aka those who do not believe in "working within the system") because there is no existing template, so to speak, for them to draw on. For those like you who believe in "working the system"... well, you have the system itself and the "successes" produced by it as your "vision".

quote:
Members, off the top of my head, who have expressed ideas that the system may not be the answer are you, Oshun Auset, Faheem, AudioGuy, soul_doctor73. You remeber Noah The African from a year or so ago perhaps as well. Others have embraced both revolution and repatriation in the past.
Well, MBM, it's pretty clear that none of those posters besides Soul Doctor (and the un-named BlaqFist) have presented the most "extreme" positions. That was my point. At one time, it seemed you confused me with BlaqFist... It just think it's important to be accurate. I understand your focus here but it doesn't help when you don't recognize the actual positions of the most prolific or steady posters with opposing views from yours.

Back to the faith thing... vision or not, most people are not going to have faith in something until they have resounding evidence that it works. And really that isn't even the best way to describe it. Most people will simply ride the bandwagon.

Faith is the substance of things hoped for... The Evidence of things not seen...

If you believe that to be an acceptable definition of faith then, IMO, it really amounts to the PRINCIPLES you deem as unconditional and ones you feel can't be compromised.

You say you agree with my point about Education... but it seems the "working within the system" mindset has compromised that principle and some can't seem to grasp the importance of it.

I've said:
No People Can Expect The Best From Its Youth When They Leave It To Others To Educate Them.

Now, I welcome critiques of that but that is that exact education principle I mentioned that I'm sure everybody would agree with but when put in that axiomatic form causes some people to voice something less than agreement for whatever reason.

My question is: How do we approach educating ourselves (our people) and in-turn turning our situation around without a mindset like that?

For one, that's a Statement Of Faith. A statement that says we are capable of educating ourselves at a high level complete with a focused and Liberation Oriented emphasis. And Revolution is first and foremost a mindset.

So, realistically, anything I have said before in opposition, philosophically or otherwise, to the idea of "working the system/working within the system" takes the evolutionary steps of education into account.

I also believe in a Town Hall Meeting approach towards political mobilization. You might recall our Black Assembly discussions. Well, towards any collective political ends, I see those type of grassroots actions as imperative.

It's no mystery to me that we agree on certain things. And, IMO, our differences are mostly philosophical. Perhaps, a more pointed question about what's the economic plan... the education plan... the political plan, etc. might help flesh out the things you want to hear here. I dunno. Your question as it is, is very broad. IMO, that's what gives you the vague responses you get. Or maybe its just me.
Your question as it is, is very broad. IMO, that's what gives you the vague responses you get. Or maybe its just me.---Nmaginate

I agree.

Of course, space has never been a limitation here. But...

Where do you stop?

The question, as ask, requires personal issues as well as group issues to be addressed.

All areas of the social, political, and economic landscapes have to be covered.

Whatever the solution for revolution, we must begin with ourselves.

Maybe reframing the question would help.


PEACE

Jim Chester
1. Map out African America
2. Select our own community, state, regional and national leaders
3. Wage a campaign to buy/own every ounce of land in African America/predominately African America
4. Have our leaders solicit businesses/corporations, etc. that will set up shop in predominately African American communities/town, cities, that will create jobs
5. Take advantage of every government grant that is available to fund community, youth, and education projects
6. Raise funds for a national, regional, state African American Legal Defense Fund
7. Raise funds to support African American Universities and Colleges and campaign for more African Americans attending college to attend traditionally African American colleges and universities (more money and government grants/scholorships that could be going to predominately Black colleges and universities
8. Form community policing units to police our own communities
9. Vow to fight the social statefication that leaves us too splintered through this country to be stong enough to stand any particular ground
10. Start to demand that the United States Prison Industry build prisons in and close to African American communities (since all prisons are predominately Black, then they should be in predominately Black areas of a state, or the country)
11. Create a serious Diplomacy Program whose aim it would be to create/re-create a link between African Americans and Africa and Africans' descendants throughout the world
12. Create more African American private schools for at least primary education levels
13. Live and work for African America as if we are a separate country from the rest of America until we have built up economic, socio, and educational independence
14. Hold rich African Americans who have made their money with, by or because of African Americans accountable to a moral duty to reach back, contribute to African American youth activities and education and community safety, i.e., if they don't contribute to African American charities, youth programs, etc., then they should be boycotted
15. Make conscious decisons everyday to not (on our part) allienate ourselves from other minorities; we need to make more allies than enemies
______________________________________
. . . Just to name a few
quote:
Originally posted by sunnubian:

1. Map out African America
2. Select our own community, state, regional and national leaders
3. Wage a campaign to buy/own every ounce of land in African America/predominately African America
4. Have our leaders solicit businesses/corporations, etc. that will set up shop in predominately African American communities/town, cities, that will create jobs
5. Take advantage of every government grant that is available to fund community, youth, and education projects
6. Raise funds for a national, regional, state African American Legal Defense Fund
7. Raise funds to support African American Universities and Colleges and campaign for more African Americans attending college to attend traditionally African American colleges and universities (more money and government grants/scholorships that could be going to predominately Black colleges and universities
8. Form community policing units to police our own communities
9. Vow to fight the social statefication that leaves us too splintered through this country to be stong enough to stand any particular ground
10. Start to demand that the United States Prison Industry build prisons in and close to African American communities (since all prisons are predominately Black, then they should be in predominately Black areas of a state, or the country)
11. Create a serious Diplomacy Program whose aim it would be to create/re-create a link between African Americans and Africa and Africans' descendants throughout the world
12. Create more African American private schools for at least primary education levels
13. Live and work for African America as if we are a separate country from the rest of America until we have built up economic, socio, and educational independence
14. Hold rich African Americans who have made their money with, by or because of African Americans accountable to a moral duty to reach back, contribute to African American youth activities and education and community safety, i.e., if they don't contribute to African American charities, youth programs, etc., then they should be boycotted
15. Make conscious decisons everyday to not (on our part) allienate ourselves from other minorities; we need to make more allies than enemies
______________________________________
. . . Just to name a few


Now THAT'S what I'm talking about!!! tfro
I am in favor of going back to Africa (repatriation); but for those who refuse to leave the plantation I will throw you a bone...

I think the fact that we pump almost 1/2 trillion dollars into the American economy each year, we should try to leverage our economic power..

We could effectively shut a company down; if we decided to say not eat at McDonalds until we get reparations...

We have had this conversation before, ya'll know where I am at on this one...
quote:
Originally posted by Nmaginate:

And I'd second that motion.

Now, MBM, does that provide a vision?
Are people going to follow that simply because its packaged in a nice and neat form?


I'll come back when I have more time, but in general, I'm just saying that people need to be able to get their heads around a tangible goal to invest of themselves and even potentially sacrifice their lives for it. The government did it with their Iraq War by selling the masses on the fact that we were "liberating Iraq" and in describing Sadam as the anti-Christ. All of that 'marketing' gave soldiers, their families, and America the tangible rationale for why they were sacrificing their lives and taking many thousands of others (much less bankrupting the country).

The phrase "keep your eye on the prize" comes to mind. We just need to clearly articulate in full detail what that "prize" is. Now perhaps the prize will be different things to different people, but nevertheless they must be articulated and sold. If brothers and sisters know that they are fighting for a black homeland or for their hard earned birthright in the form of reparations, or are fighting for a vision of Pan African global liberation and solidarity, or to take control of the education of their children or whatever - we just need to be able to see and taste and feel and hear the full dimension of that vision and those objectives. That takes leadership of course. But I guess that's another thread! bsm
BTW - as I've said before, I believe that it's going to take a combination of 'working the system' and revolutionary efforts to fully liberate us. I think working the system is like the running game. Jerome Bettis busted lots of holes up the middle - even occasionally breaking the long run for a touchdown. At the end of the day, though, the passing game is what provides much of the scoring and critical yardage to win games. Not a perfect analogy, but you get my meaning. bsm
I too can accept sunnubian's 'Starter List.'

1. Map out African America

O.K. This adopts the separatist solution of course, and I don't. Anyway...

2. Select our own community, state, regional and national leaders

An initial 'Steering' or similarly named group would be need, of course. I agree.

3. Wage a campaign to buy/own every ounce of land in African America/predominately African America

Excellent goal. The 'how' of it is an absolute bear. Most formidable would be to find 'willing' sellers let alone buyers.

4. Have our leaders solicit businesses/corporations, etc. that will set up shop in predominately African American communities/town, cities, that will create jobs

Worthy goal. Who are the owners of these businesses to be solicited. They are likely to be 'hard' to persuade after separation.

5. Take advantage of every government grant that is available to fund community, youth, and education projects

Whose government? We just set up our own. Right?

Again, after separation this government with the grants is likely to be reluctant. We will have taken key work force. Not irreplaceable, but key. It will hurt.


6. Raise funds for a national, regional, state African American Legal Defense Fund

With what? Do we take our jobs with us when we separate? Maybe, but I think it will unlikely to be accepted.

7. Raise funds to support African American Universities and Colleges and campaign for more African Americans attending college to attend traditionally African American colleges and universities (more money and government grants/scholorships that could be going to predominately Black colleges and universities

Again, I call the source of money into question. Again, it is a worthy goal.

8. Form community policing units to police our own communities

With volunteers? Money again.

9. Vow to fight the social statefication that leaves us too splintered through this country to be stong enough to stand any particular ground

This is do-able. The 'vow' that is.

10. Start to demand that the United States Prison Industry build prisons in and close to African American communities (since all prisons are predominately Black, then they should be in predominately Black areas of a state, or the country)

That would have to be negotiated. The prison system would not belong to African America. Separation, remember?

11. Create a serious Diplomacy Program whose aim it would be to create/re-create a link between African Americans and Africa and Africans' descendants throughout the world

This would have to be one of the first things done in any separatist solution.

12. Create more African American private schools for at least primary education levels

It is clear the assumption in this solution is retaining jobs currently held. It's a shaky assumption. I think by now 'Charlie' would be slightly pissed.

13. Live and work for African America as if we are a separate country from the rest of America until we have built up economic, socio, and educational independence

Great! This should be number one on the list.

14. Hold rich African Americans who have made their money with, by or because of African Americans accountable to a moral duty to reach back, contribute to African American youth activities and education and community safety, i.e., if they don't contribute to African American charities, youth programs, etc., then they should be boycotted

This is also not likely to happen. Armstrong Williams ain't comin'. There's a long list of others who are not coming. We might be surprised at who 'won't get on the train.'

15. Make conscious decisons everyday to not (on our part) allienate ourselves from other minorities; we need to make more allies than enemies

These folks are likely to be among those who don't want to get on the separatist train. Remember they came here to partake of the American Dream.

I would suggest African America ain't it.

I think the list is structured in the right direction.

I think the solution is in the identity decision of each individual.

All groups are made of same-minded individuals.


PEACE

Jim Chester
"1. Map out African America

O.K. This adopts the separatist solution of course, and I don't. Anyway...
____________________________________

JWC,
I don't mean to literally separate from America (especially considering that America is just as much ours as anyone else's, if not more so), but I mean that we should consider all predominately Black areas, cities, communities African America, and that we should go about out lives, ambitions, and socio-economic development AS IF we are; focus on ourselves and our communities, and our future and the future of our children and our socio-economic independence of racist white America---be able to do for ourselve all that we need done---and we actually circulate enough money into this economy now to be able to do just that, however, the money is not focused where it should be or would do the most good for African Americans/America, at least not as much good as it all is doing for the rest of America.
I think sunnubian laid down quite the roadmap!! tfro I found her answer extremely comprehensive and thought-provoking! Smile

I also think that there are two major hurdles that we face as a people that need to be removed to achieve the kind of cohesiveness and organization that we seek.

The first is those of us who are quick to shoot down those kinds of suggestions because they are not seen (in that person's eyes) as achieveable. It's somewhat of a crabs-in-a-barrel type of effect. Support for each other and good ideas is imperative to upward mobility. And we seem to lack that as a group.

The second is inactivity or non-involvement, due to the fact of not thinking that we (or one) can/does make a difference. One day, every four years we want to stand up and say we matter by casting a vote for the next White male that will be leading our country. But, on those other 1459 days, voicing our displeasure with our government or offering our time, support or words to positive organizations or emailing our ideas of what is right or wrong with our society to someone who needs to hear it never seems like it's 'going to be enough" or a "waste of time." More often than not, doing something is better than doing nothing. And a lot of us need to do much more and believe that we do make a difference, individually and as a unit, 365 days a year. Once we believe that is when it will actually become a reality.
Hmmm.... When SUNNUBIAN said, "Map Out African America" I had absolutely no idea what he was talking about. The idea alone didn't cause me to think of anything but a "map" as in plotting out locations.

Since it wasn't followed by.... All Blacks Should Move To Those Areas for X, Y, & Z reasons... I had no reason to believe it was a "separatist" solution and no one else did either.

Simply asking, "What did you mean by that" would have been in order, IMO, because I don't think you could read anything into that.

As far as "separatist" solutions I keep feeling compelled to share this bit of wisdom that properly sets the criterion:
quote:
According to the great black scholar and activist W.E.B. DuBois 70 years ago,
    "There [should be] no objection to colored people living beside colored people if the surroundings and treatment involve no discrimination, of the streets are well lighted, if there is waters, sewerage and police protections, and if anybody of any color who wishes, can live n that neighborhood...never in the world should our fight be against association with ourselves because by that very token we give up the whole argument that we are worth associating with."
In a similar vein, DuBois once noted that black school children
    "need neither integrated education nor segregated education; what they need is education."
http://www.dissidentvoice.org/Aug04/Street0814.htm
Why we act like Integration is a virtue unto itself is maddening. "It adopts a separatist solution and I don't"... Hmm... then what are you "adopting" or preferring?

God forbid anyone suggest we shouldn't be all up under the "White Man". Lord knows we can't make it without him. That's what that BS sounds like. Perhaps it would be different if it was followed up by a principled position that, like MBM has asked, shows a functional alternative. Everyday we say "integration" is, at best, flawed. But I guess it's better than "being on our own".

This is the stuff that irks me. The whole body of what SUNNUBIAN said is dismissed and that one statement taken out of CONTEXT because we have this aversion to anything that could possibly suggest so-called "separatism". JWC??? Where is the "separatism" in all of SUNNUBIAN's other points? Aren't they all parts of a whole? Why did you SEPARATE that one from the rest?
quote:
The first is those of us who are quick to shoot down those kinds of suggestions because they are not seen (in that person's eyes) as achieveable. It's somewhat of a crabs-in-a-barrel type of effect. Support for each other and good ideas is imperative to upward mobility. And we seem to lack that as a group.
Well, Ebony, that's easier said than done. The very "shoot down" approach is more or less what this thread is about or where it evolved from. Fortunately, MBM has tried to offer a forum where those things he doesn't personally think are practical or achieveable can be expressed and possibly highlight areas of common ground.

But on any given thread, any number of us have more or less acted like "crabs", you included. And, of course, I don't exclude myself. Part of that is just the thin-line that is expressing our views. At issue here, IMO, is how can we show support for ideas other committed brothers and sisters have that we may not philosophically agree with?

The issue, to me, is not one of UNITY. When I hear that it sounds like we should all be doing the same thing... The issue, IMO, is how do we WORK IN CONCERT with each other as not in ways that counteract the positives we are all striving for from the different angles we're taking towards supposedly the same goal. (I say "supposedly" for a definite reason.)

So, I have nothing but praise for MBM, no matter how much I "argue" with him. His thread here provides us with an opportunity to do just that: Explore different angles. I do think, however, that we have to move beyond just this. This is only a start: To see where we essentially agree and have common ground.

IMO, it's a matter of everybody Doing Their (Positive) Thang. I think our views on things show where our interests and talents lie. It doesn't make a lot of sense worrying about who is inclined to think how you do. My Motto is DO YOUR THANG. I have full faith and confidence that all of the core posters here, e.g., will do and have done positive things.

So, when it comes to something like the Hip Hop discussion we had, EBONY, the bottom line is you have my full blessings to DO YOUR THANG. Obviously, you are motivated to do what's right and you're insistent on us taking responsibility. Not a problem. I am too. We just view that responsibility in a different light. My opinion was more in line with what our collective responsibility was/is and yours more geared towards individual responsibility. The two go hand-in-hand. One without the other is weak, at best. So, DO YOUR THANG.
EBONY (continuing...)

I wish we could get away from the "There's Only ONE WAY Syndrome." But that will take purposed organization that recognizes there is more than one way as a matter of principle.

We would have to take pledge not to speak ill of someone who just happens to have a different idea but is a part of our collective vision that we're all in this together and doing our part. We would have to dispense with the idea that there is One Way that's better or worse than others and accept as a Matter Of Principle certain ideas, movements, ideologies, leaders, etc. a bonafide and credible as positive things for us no matter how much (or little) they seem to add.

So, on a grand scale, I think it all goes back to the Black Assembly idea we discussed a long time ago. SUNNUBIANS second point intersects with that by placing a premuim on us selecting our own leaders. Beyond just doing that, IMO, we need to have an organizational structure and a mission statement, so to speak, that recognizes and legitimates the different positive thrusts we have amongst us whether that's from the Black Radical Left (the Revolutionary ideas this thread is about), the Black "Mainstream" or varying degrees of Black conservativism that really cuts across the political spectrum. (e.g. IMO, the "We Are Our Own Worst Enemies" sentiment is a conservative notion more or less. One that's shared by Blacks in the NOI, those who are card carrying members of the Republican party, and people like you who fall somewhere in between those two "extremes".)

I really wanted to have this discussion on how to "work together" when Sweetwuzzy made a thread referencing this article from the Black Commentator: For whatever reason, when Sweetwuzzy posted it the thread never really went anywhere. Without a serious discussion (and organizational if not a conceptual structure) how we "navigate" or propose to fight on many fronts then we will continue fall into the trap of trying to insist one is more "right" than the other.

You had no problem with suggesting I wasn't as committed (or what-have-you) because my views didn't mirror yours or whatever on the Hip Hop thread. I say that not because I have an issue with that, say what you want... but I mention it just to highlight how we all can be a bit overzealous and self-righteous thinking that our views and our particular articulation is the epitome. (Notice you did share a testimonial for some reason.)

So, in total agreement with SUNNUBIAN, I believe selecting our own leaders is critical. Right now, WHITE SUPREMACY skews and has skewed everything we've called "Black Leadership" To-Date, including the Civil Rights leadership from Day One til present. At the very least, by an internal selection/election we would know who speaks for us specifically with our own authentic concerns and interests in mind.

Me, personally... at this juncture I would prefer a process & structure that would legitimate and bring to the table all Black leaders (grassroots to elected officials to organizational representatives) from every walk of life and under every ideology.

To me, that's a vision I feel we all can wrap ourselves around. To me, it's a matter of principle. Just as SUNNUBIAN said is reason enough, IMO. It is our right to be able to choose our own leaders. If nothing else, suggest a process will counteract the BS that's going on with Black CONservatives being propped up and pushed out as THE "New Black Leadership".

Our response by establishing our own election process would be: "No Thank You. We've Already Selected Our Own New Black Leadership."

Again, if nothing else, we would be establishing our own countermeasure against such blatant White Supremacy Games. By inviting Black Conservatives to the table and establishing a role for everyone willing to do something positive then we can counteract some of the BS that comes out of merely playing
the game" (and in the end being completely played).
quote:
Originally posted by sunnubian:
"1. Map out African America

O.K. This adopts the separatist solution of course, and I don't. Anyway...
____________________________________

JWC,
I don't mean to literally separate from America (especially considering that America is just as much ours as anyone else's, if not more so), but I mean that we should consider all predominately Black areas, cities, communities African America, and that we should go about out lives, ambitions, and socio-economic development AS IF we are; focus on ourselves and our communities, and our future and the future of our children and our socio-economic independence of racist white America---be able to do for ourselve all that we need done---and we actually circulate enough money into this economy now to be able to do just that, however, the money is not focused where it should be or would do the most good for African Americans/America, at least not as much good as it all is doing for the rest of America.


I agree.

Learning how that can be done while living in a society that is, actively, competitive against that is the real task.



PEACE

Jim Chester
quote:
Originally posted by Nmaginate:

Fortunately, MBM has tried to offer a forum where those things he doesn't personally think are practical or achieveable can be expressed and possibly highlight areas of common ground.


To be clear, I've said this earlier in the thread:

quote:
Originally posted by MBM:

BTW - as I've said before, I believe that it's going to take a combination of 'working the system' and revolutionary efforts to fully liberate us.


My differences with purely revolutionary agendas are ones of strategy and not objectives. I just believe that an exclusively revolutionary approach, because of the gargantuan scope of what that must entail, causes us to ignore more incremental gains that can help our people in the short term. If we can create progress in our communities today, while fighting for our ulitmate objective at the same time, then we essentially cover all bases.

Plus - 'working the system', in my opinion, provides the kind of experience and training that can only better position our community to most effectively secure a revolutionary objective, as well as "administer" a revolutionary state.

Lastly, there will be some of us who opt for the revolutionary objective, while others choose to 'work the system'. I don't think that one's blackness or commitment to their people can be questioned based upon where their personal preferences fall in this matter. Working both agendas provides opportunity for the widest cross-section of African America.
If we can create progress in our communities today, while fighting for our ulitmate objective at the same time, then we essentially cover all bases.---MBM

I agree.

We all stand in individual circumstances even while being contained in the same system.

That system impacts of us differently.

As a matter of fact, I don't believe we will ever agree on a (complete) definition of who we are.

It much like religion. Complete agreement is almost impossible.

You can get agreement on God, but not the name.

You can get agreement on religion, but not division.

You can get agreement on division, but not denomination.

I believe we are in an evolutionary revolution.

The more clear each of us is as to who we are as individuals, the more quickly will be the coalitions needed to assert ourselves as a people.

For whoever we call ourselves, we still share the common and unique experience and history of unknown African ancestry and chattel slavery and its derivatives.


PEACE

Jim Chester
quote:
Originally posted by MBM:

If we can create progress in our communities today, while fighting for our ulitmate objective at the same time, then we essentially cover all bases.

Plus - 'working the system', in my opinion, provides the kind of experience and training that can only better position our community to most effectively secure a revolutionary objective, as well as "administer" a revolutionary state.

Lastly, there will be some of us who opt for the revolutionary objective, while others choose to 'work the system'. I don't think that one's blackness or commitment to their people can be questioned based upon where their personal preferences fall in this matter. Working both agendas provides opportunity for the widest cross-section of African America.
Well said. I mostly hope you don't think I've ever questioned your "Blackness".

I'd like to think all of us who have thought about this long enough and thought beyond our own perspectives have realized that.

And since we're doing the obligatory "I've said as much before"...
quote:
MBM... Whether we agree philosophically in the final analysis is of little concern, to me. Given that we do see the uniqueness of our situation as a people and the need for a specific focus and agenda because that is really the most important thing.

While I reserve my right to vehemently and passionate disagree with you (philosophically), more than anything I respect you because, unlike [some] Black Conservatives, I have no reason to doubt your commitment to our people -- in word or deed.

The Elusive Quest for the "Black Conservative"!
quote:
Originally posted by Nmaginate:

quote:
Originally posted by MBM:

If we can create progress in our communities today, while fighting for our ulitmate objective at the same time, then we essentially cover all bases.

Plus - 'working the system', in my opinion, provides the kind of experience and training that can only better position our community to most effectively secure a revolutionary objective, as well as "administer" a revolutionary state.

Lastly, there will be some of us who opt for the revolutionary objective, while others choose to 'work the system'. I don't think that one's blackness or commitment to their people can be questioned based upon where their personal preferences fall in this matter. Working both agendas provides opportunity for the widest cross-section of African America.
Well said. I mostly hope you don't think I've ever questioned your "Blackness".

I'd like to think all of us who have thought about this long enough and thought beyond our own perspectives have realized that.

And since we're doing the obligatory "I've said as much before"...
quote:
MBM... Whether we agree philosophically in the final analysis is of little concern, to me. Given that we do see the uniqueness of our situation as a people and the need for a specific focus and agenda because that is really the most important thing.

While I reserve my right to vehemently and passionate disagree with you (philosophically), more than anything I respect you because, unlike [some] Black Conservatives, I have no reason to doubt your commitment to our people -- in word or deed.

The Elusive Quest for the "Black Conservative"!


Nmaginate, thanks for the thoughtful post. I wasn't speaking to anyone, in particular. I just wanted to make plain that black folk should have the freedom to strive for liberation as they define it.

BTW - I think it is a human attribute that when others are achieving great things that those who are achieving good things will at some point reach for the ultimate objective.
quote:
Originally posted by MBM:
If we can create progress in our communities today, while fighting for our ulitmate objective at the same time, then we essentially cover all bases.


MBM, just a question ...

What, in your opinion, is our "ultimate objective"?

And actually, I'll just throw it out there for anybody else that would care to answer, as well. Smile
quote:
Nmaginate, thanks for the thoughtful post. I wasn't speaking to anyone, in particular. I just wanted to make plain that black folk should have the freedom to strive for liberation as they define it.

BTW - I think it is a human attribute that when others are achieving great things that those who are achieving good things will at some point reach for the ultimate objective.
I most certainly hope so but, IMO, when can't ignore how the White Supremacy dynamics skew the idea of Who Is Seeking/Achieving GREAT Things vs. Who Is Seeking/Achieving GOOD Things. And the ultimately thing is problematic in the sense that it is can be so gradual.

That's why I think the "(S)Electing Our Own Leaders" idea is crucial. In so doing, we speed up our own self re-examination process (or rather institutionalize it), if nothing else.

I guess it is a process of us reaching the proverbial "Political Maturity" some have spoken about...

As far as my post to you, while it was especially true for you, it fits most of the core posters here. There should be no mistake about that.

My concern is How Do We Navigate Our Differences (Our Quest For The GREAT/GRAND as well as For The GOOD) and, more importantly, how do we make both into a COORDINATED EFFORT?

One of these days... (when I find my notes)... I'll post some things you inspired me to write the last time you were "tired of my shananigans"... lol

I think we have to think of innovative ways that make it natural for us to rely on each other. One of those ideas from my notes were to try to get churches to combine their "building fund" money and aspirations to make Interfaith centers to be Faith & Community hubs. They could combine Community Centers along with a number of chapels to accomodate their different congregations and house them all under One Roof, consolidating various functions from Day Care to After School Tutoring, Mentoring, etc. Things like that could get us to the point to where we associate with each other in ways that will hopefully build more trust and, more importantly, understanding where more and more of us can see that a lot of us unequivocally want "the same thing".

Anyway... That's me trying to add something and "put myself out there"...
quote:
Originally posted by Nmaginate:

I think we have to think of innovative ways that make it natural for us to rely on each other. One of those ideas from my notes were to try to get churches to combine their "building fund" money and aspirations to make Interfaith centers to be Faith & Community hubs. They could combine Community Centers along with a number of chapels to accomodate their different congregations and house them all under One Roof, consolidating various functions from Day Care to After School Tutoring, Mentoring, etc. Things like that could get us to the point to where we associate with each other in ways that will hopefully build more trust and, more importantly, understanding where more and more of us can see that a lot of us unequivocally want "the same thing".

Anyway... That's me trying to add something and "put myself out there"...


I love it! It's a GREAT idea!!! tfro
quote:
Originally posted by EbonyRose:

What, in your opinion, is our "ultimate objective"?

EBONY... there you go trying to start something! lol (*joking w/ sarcasm*)

We keep avoiding have a thorough discussion on what the Ultimate Objective is and more importantly how we may conceive/perceive it differently. I really would like for MBM to define that.

IMO, our ultimate Objective is to control our own social/political (and economic) destiny in as much as possible in a shared society. Freedom is a word we throw around a lot when it comes to that. It's something called self-determination, if you ask me.

When we can legitimately say that we have control over whether our people are employed and employable then and only then "will we be free." That is to say that when we can say that we as a people have and are responsible for all level of institutions that can provide employment and education/training for our people then we would have reached some semblance of the Ultimate Goal.

Self-sufficiency, IMO, is the goal. However you define it or choose to term it.


I understand that that's a process. But there is such a thing as knowing whether you're on that road or not. But, I do, as I've said before, think that Educating Our Own people is a Means and Ends unto itself. That, to me, is a Matter of Principle. Something that should never be compromised.

So, at the very least, talking about Objectives, ultimate or otherwise, is a discussion about our Principles and what we value the most. The important thing is for us not to avoid discussing the ramifications of the ideas we have and how we seek to execute plans in accordance with the principles we say we value.

It's like people saying they they want to lose weight but either put little or no effort towards doing it. We have to be careful that we're not just playing lip service and/or putting forth minimal effort towards said objectives because of how comfortable we feel in our present condition or habits.

Just like me to ramble on... but I hope you get my point.
Another one of those ideas MBM is for us to Adopt A Student. A particular student and their needs, for the "gifted" or otherwise can be matched with an individual or group of individuals who take responsibility for providing for some of the cost to finance things that student needs that their parents can't necessarily provide. This can be coordinated through churches, etc. The emphasis here is to make sure we invest in our best and brightest while trying to uplift those who aren't excelling. That's where forming our own schools is important. Only we can rescue our kids...

Quickly, another aspect of that would be for our rich/fortunate to sponsor education and training for our youth in the fields that are Imperative for our survival and success. So, Athletes, e.g., would Adopt and finance all educational needs not otherwise provided to advance our youth in Medicine and the Sciences from remedial training to more exposure to advance materials.

I wholeheartedly agreed with your statement about "working the system" provides us with the opportunity to learn skills necessary... but we have to take a more focused and structured approach to putting that acquistion of skills to use in the best way possible to benefit as many of our people as possible.
quote:
Originally posted by Nmaginate:
We keep avoiding have a thorough discussion on what the Ultimate Objective is and more importantly how we may conceive/perceive it differently. I really would like for MBM to define that.


Well, we're probably more likely to get a response out of him now that you've asked as well.

::: Crossing my fingers and a couple of toes :::

But I'll wait and see! Smile
quote:
Originally posted by EbonyRose:
quote:
Originally posted by Nmaginate:
We keep avoiding have a thorough discussion on what the Ultimate Objective is and more importantly how we may conceive/perceive it differently. I really would like for MBM to define that.


Well, we're probably more likely to get a response out of him now that you've asked as well.

::: Crossing my fingers and a couple of toes :::

But I'll wait and see! Smile


I think there are probably a number of different 'ultimate objectives'. I can see for some how having an independent black state is the ultimate objective. Others want a unified, Pan African socialist revolution to take back/over Africa. To others, achieving true legal and societal/social and economic parity in this country is the objective. Some want to leave America and go back to Africa. Some probably just want to have enough to feed their kids tonight.

IMHO - all are objectives which deserve serious consideration and investment. As I said, I don't believe we have the luxury of identifying just one basket to put all of our eggs in. Furthermore, I feel it is probably impossible to get all of African America to support just one. There are black folks who sincerely believe that we will never be free in America. They certainly have lots of evidence to support their position. Others believe that this country is just as much ours anyones and that we should fight to make America treat us as we deserve (and have earned). There are considerable merits to that argument as well. As with most communities, I think we'll develop factions which choose to move in varying directions. I just hope we can all respect each other and support whatever mode of liberation that makes sense for each of us.

P.S. ER - when have I dodged a question before? bsm
quote:
There are black folks who sincerely believe that we will never be free in America. They certainly have lots of evidence to support their position. Others believe that this country is just as much ours anyones and that we should fight to make America treat us as we deserve (and have earned). There are considerable merits to that argument as well.
Well, I don't see those ideas, at their rudimentary levels, as Mutually Exclusive. In fact, that's what my Transitional Plan or idea is all about.

In terms of a Coordinated, Unified Effort... we all should collectively do our level best to make sure All Of The Above can become a reality.

Maybe its me. Both philosophies, AMERICA IS OURS and AFRICA IS OUR HOME are both co-equal sentiments I have. I have reconciled them and, for me, I feel it is our collective duty to make both worthwhile and realistic Options for those who prefer one over the other.

The constant in both of those things is "having our own", IMO. Whether its here or in Africa. I believe the two are indispensible and inextricably tied.

Africa can't be what it can be without us being the best we can be here. Listen to the sentiments of our African born posters... They feel we, here in America, are the Key. Regardless, we have to do our part.

quote:
As with most communities, I think we'll develop factions which choose to move in varying directions. I just hope we can all respect each other and support whatever mode of liberation that makes sense for each of us.
Exactly. And I'm saying we have to purposely plan and coordinate things to engender that respect, understanding and support.

quote:
P.S. ER - when have I dodged a question before?
Frankly, MBM, you response didn't address the question forthrightly.

quote:
If we can create progress in our communities today, while fighting for our ulitmate objective at the same time, then we essentially cover all bases.
Ultimate Objective, there, was singular. It suggested that there was ONE Ultimate Objective. Me, I have no problems with there being ONE, though I have said I believe whatever "it" is we may all define it and conceive of it differently.

It would be like trying to define "A Beautiful Woman" (or handsome man, for the sisters). We all have an idea and can even agree on who is "beautiful" but as for who/what is the Ultimate... Our preferences and other variables come into play.

Anyway... MBM, I was and am still requesting you definition, personal or otherwise, of what our Ultimate Objective is.

quote:
If we can create progress in our communities today, while fighting for our ulitmate objective at the same time...
There was a reason why both EBONY and I asked the question...
MBM, IF you don't want to comment on that, how about my stab at what our ULTIMATE OBJECTIVE is?
quote:
When we can legitimately say that we have control over whether our people are employed and employable then and only then "will we be free." That is to say that when we can say that we as a people have and are responsible for [and have control over] all levels of institutions which can provide employment and education/training for our people then we would have reached some semblance of the Ultimate Goal.

Self-sufficiency, IMO, is the [Ultimate] goal... however you define it or choose to term it.
Your critique please?
How does or doesn't my U.O. cover the different things you talked about (below)?

quote:
I think there are probably a number of different 'ultimate objectives'. I can see for some how having an independent black state is the ultimate objective. Others want a unified, Pan African socialist revolution to take back/over Africa. To others, achieving true legal and societal/social and economic parity in this country is the objective. Some want to leave America and go back to Africa. Some probably just want to have enough to feed their kids tonight.
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