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"Asking for help" means we want somebody [government and businesses]... to geniunely handle the task of making us a better citizen.

I think you need to revert to your "politics [i.e. YOUR opinion] isn't logical" thing again. Because now, instead of talking about the Ogletree Lawyers, Inc. overseeing Reparations you've now said, flatly, it's the US gov't, etc. who are being asked to "make us better citizens"??

In the mainstream media, in [Black] Academia, in the world bodies (the UN WCAR, etc.), and even among those local community organizations with very few people composing those meeting around the issue of Reparations... WHERE is the call for US gov't and business to "make Black people better citizens."???

WHERE do you get this BS from?

So why do we have to ask for their help when their mode of operation has been to the contrary.
I asked you how is it you equate Reparations to "asking for help." You have asserted that Reparations = "asking for help." I beg to differ from your characterization. Why you characterize Reparations in that way, I don't understand. So I'm asking you why. WHY DO YOU SEE IT THAT WAY?

I don't accept your term. That was clear from the start. You cannot answer/address my question by continuing to use that unacceptable term. You have to establish how it is valid. You have not done so. So, to the extent that you see Reparations as "asking for help" then we know you have even more issues as to why you can't explain why you choose to characterize Reparations in that way.

What the gov't, etc. is inclined to do, in your opinion, is not the question. The question is why do you characterize Reparations and, by extention, advocates for Reparations in the disparaging manner you have.

We are again in waiting mode which for me is quite depressing.
I don't give a fuck what you're "depressed" by. I asked you why you say the things you do out your mouth. All this talk about what the gov't did or has done, etc., etc., etc. provides no cover for what comes out YOUR mouth.

Why do you equate advocating for Reparations to "asking for help"???

That's a simple question. You said it. You made the statement. You made the claim. You overburdened it with some BS about "waiting" (which ISOME challenged) and your little weak emotional rhetoric about it certain aspects being "disturbing" or "depressing."

At no point have you said why you called advocating for Reparations as something that amounts to "asking for help." WHY IS THAT??

Are you telling that you purposely said something you know is not the truth and that you purposely tried to mischaracterize the call/demand for Reparations to lend support of your position? Or are you telling me you're not smart enough to explain your own positon?
Has anybody bother to take a poll to see how many of us will be interested in this ?
Are we just going to be told "Well we got you reparation so take it and be happy!"
Do what the rest of us want matter??
Can we atleast choose if we want it or if we just want to be left out of it???
How is forced reparation different from force labor???
I own a house here who will pay for my house when I get sent back to Africa with nothing but a handfull of money???
Originally posted by Isome:
I have never seen a team of well known and trying to be well known lawyers fight for free...

You haven't "seen it" Dusty, but you read the article. Did it mention payment to the attorneys? Did you inquire about it? Is it normal for you to presume the worst of Black people, or just Black lawyers, or people in general?

... and if they win they will be overseers of a trust fund to help the poorest of members. ...

Are you afraid of Black people being your overseers, or are you afraid everyone won't be included? Whatever the case may be, your fears are misplaced and do not justify objections to being paid what is owed.

Check out what some Native American groups do to 'black' members who claim to have 'Native American' DNA.


Plus this time they have the major media on their side. This is very Disturbing.

Is your argument now that press coverage makes them illegitimate or traitors-in-waiting? If it is, isn't it sad that a lack of press coverage makes them ineffective to others. ...can't win for losing on that one. What's worse is that despite the press coverage, there are objections to the very idea of reparations based on assumptions and misinformation.

Meaning Professor Charles J. Ogletree, Jr. considered compensation claims for reparations as lost causes until the UN gave their approval.

With or without UN "approval" of international reparations claims you consider reparations an unworthy, unappealing cause. What is your point?

If reparations are through the Ogletree and Cochran types

Would it make it better if it were "through" some storefront lawyer no one ever heard? Are you saying that lawyers are unnecessary to push the case through the labyrinth of laws? Is there something in their (well, Mr. Cochran is dead so that's a moot point) background that we don't know about? Is there a blemish on Charles Ogletree's record that proves his lack of integrity? Think about that for a moment?

I dont want any part of it.

Though you're wrong about the form they would take, who would force you to accept any benefits? No one. My question is, would you actively campaign or vote against it and those of your ethnicity if such a scenario presented itself?

It is doomed to fail and cause unforseen consequences.

It has failed before when we were just out of shackles and then again when we were disenfranchised. We're neither of those things now, but we still can't get the average Black man to be curious about what is really going on.

There's already wealth, education, imprisonment and healthcare gaps. What more do you think could go wrong "as a consequence"?
What you say sound good in principle but have you really thought of what will happen once the majority of us go back to Africa?
No matter how much money they give us we will need to be able to trade with the rest of the world for us to be progressive , but they will not be a happy bunch to trade with us !!
After all we have just cost them a lot of money , so when we have to trade with them what do you think will happen ?
Is Africa capable of supplying ALL of the necessities so we would not have to depend on them for anything??
They will back our sorry butts in a corner and before you know it we will be paying through the nose for anything we have to buy from them !!!
we will be worse off than the natives!!!
Originally posted by Isome:
Originally posted by Annie:
how are you going to collect it without further enslaving yourselves to the white man terrany?

You collect the same way all other groups collected. They were no more subjected to the white man's tyranny for taking what was rightfully theirs.

Look at what they did with the native Canadians?

There are social ills in the Native community related to the white man's inhumanity. We have social ills related to the white man's inhumanity. From the reading I've done about Natives and you said so yourself, it is the same white folk who discriminate against them. That doesn't make them lazy. And, self-medicating (alcoholism) isn't an automatic consequence of reparations. There are specific variables at play in the Native community and one of the most important being that they are isolated on reservations. We are not.

I want to hold my head high and spit in the face of some of my ancestors.

Your head should always be held high. There is no reason to lower it because others refuse to allow the continued unjust enrichment of white men from the blood and sweat of our forebearers.

Uhhh, I don't think you quite meant that last part the way it was written.

Brother that is exactly what we will get not anything substantal not dignity just more humiliation, that's how the whites keep their slaves as slaves even after slavery has been abolish!!!

Dignity is something that white folks cannot give you. You either have it, or you don't. Before the physical and social bonds of slavery were removed, there were those of us who were dignified in the face of dehumanizing indignities. If they can know their spirit at a time like that, you and I do them a disservice by not recognizing that our diginity comes from within.
We are not asking for help but let's face it they don't want to acknowledge their indebtedness in this, so the only way to explain it will be to write it up as "Handouts to blacks to help them"

The books won't say "Payment for work done hundreds of years ago because their little computers will not know how to file that !!!
I don't care how proper and justified it is they will find a way to turn it into a halo for them and more of the "those N--- cannot make it without handouts from us!!!"
Originally posted by Nmaginate:
Dusty, you didn't answer my question. Charles Ogletree isn't the sum total of the Reparations Movement. Your issue whereby you cast aspersions at his motives (and others) is your issue to deal with. But I asked you simple question(s).

  • What makes you claim the call for Reparations is a "recent" one?
  • And one based on some idea of "asking for help"???
  • Hmmmm.... You at least tried to get around to saying something about the first part, barely, but didn't say a damn thing about the latter. So what was the purpose of your posts?

    If reparations are through the Ogletree and Cochran types I dont want any part.
    Okay... But I don't want to hear that stuff. Those are your issues. I care not for your issues.
    Nor do I care if you want any part of something Ogletree et al are involved in. My thinking (or anyone else's) began to revolve around yours... WHEN?? I asked you to take part in Reparations... WHEN?? Reparations becomes legitimate by you signal you will take part in it... WHEN?

    How come none of that addresses my question(s)?

    Johnny Cochran is deceased. ... "Ogletree types"??? They are _________________ ? Those "types" are __________ ?
    Please... Come up with a logical position. One without all the fallacy. And, I guess if Native Americans do it, we're going to do it too, huh? Roll Eyes

    You must have some stuff twisted in your head. It's the Anti-Reparationists, White ones in particular, who rather openly are trying to decide "Who Is Black?" and calling for "blood" and DNA tests.

    Plus this time they have the major media on their side.
    THIS TIME?? THIS TIME?? Thank you for disproving your own BS. Is Reparations "recent" or not? Thank you, I have your vote for NOT... which renders your claim about it being something that just "recently" appeared as all for naught.

    Please leave the rhetoric at home...

    You can also deal with your issues as they relate to you equating Reparations not only to "asking for help" (which you have not spoken to... figures) but as some sign or statement that "We As A People" are not making it or whatever bunch of irrelevant concepts you want to throw out there. And it's funny how you talk about "We As A People" while at the same time trippin' over a possible team of people who may help in administrating a trust fund to help "the poorest of members".

    I guess "the poorest members" are those who prove your notion that "We As A People" have been "making" it.
    We as a people in this country US have been making it so far so why we need to stop and ask for some help recently.
    Again, what's up with this association of Reparations with "asking for help"?? And what does our "making it", so far or even more so now (if that's what you think or could say)...

    I don't recall ever discussing this with you but (in this :: EDIT :: ) I understand what ISOME said (below) about you being against Reparations, anyway. IRRELEVANT concepts like the "making it so far" idea and trying to LIE TO YOURSELF (and us) about the call for Reparations being "recent" just show how you're trying desperately to justify your pre-conceived position instead of having sound reasons for having the position you do.

    Please come back when you have eliminated your issues -- aka NON-ISSUES.
    Originally posted by Annie:
    Has anybody bother to take a poll to see how many of us will be interested in this ?
    Are we just going to be told "Well we got you reparation so take it and be happy!"
    Do what the rest of us want matter??
    Can we atleast choose if we want it or if we just want to be left out of it???
    How is forced reparation different from force labor???
    I own a house here who will pay for my house when I get sent back to Africa with nothing but a handfull of money???

    Oh my gawwwd, you're like the Saturday Night Live character Emily Letitia... who gets all worked up over an issue, but she has misunderstood what the issue is.


    There is no forced removal to another continent or country involved. Compensation, monetarily or otherwise, is the sole action involved.


    That is when someone is sent or moves back to their country of origin. It isn't really applicable to descendants of African slaves because they've never been anywhere but where they are. However, many people mistakenly use it in reference to our situation and the Continent.
    We are not asking for help but let's face it they don't want to acknowledge their indebtedness in this, so the only way to explain it will be to write it up as "Handouts to blacks to help them"
    NO. The truth is not contingent on anyone acknowledging it as the truth. They can spin it any way they want, as if they haven't already.

    Is there actually a point to your comments?
    I don't care how proper and justified it is they will find a way to turn it into a halo for them and more of the "those N--- cannot make it without handouts from us!!!"
    AND??? sck

    Oh... so you're talking about the only way [FOR THEM] to explain it... bsm

    When you learn what being coherent is... then comeback.
    Last edited {1}
    Thanks all for have triggers some pleasants thoughts.

    Keeping you mind and heart on being sincere and the answer will come.

    Now I am going into fool mode so here's my folly

    Here are the rewards with following Olgatree and Cochran in the Reparation Movement. Olgatree should be telling you this not I.

    Let's lay the ground work.

    Q: Name a company or organization that is being sued for reparations?
    A: JP Morgan Chase

    Q: Which poster posted an article showing the Reparation Movement is in trouble?
    A: MBM

    Q: In the article what does the federal judge do with the suit naming JP Morgan Chase among others as responsible for slavery and liable to pay for the damages?

    Last week in Chicago, a federal judge threw out a 2002 lawsuit that, if successful, would have made 17 corporations that profited from the African slave trade, including J. P. Morgan Chase and R. J. Reynolds Tobacco pay, the descendants.

    In his 104-page opinion, U.S. District Court Judge Charles Norgle said the attempt to seek reparations "more than a century after the end of the Civil War and the formal abolition of slavery fails."

    Norgle recognized that slavery has caused "tremendous suffering and ineliminable scars," but "present day Americans are not morally or legally liable for historical injustices,...the debt to African-Americans has already been paid, and ...reparations talk is divisive, immersing African-Americans in a culture of victimhood."

    Judge Norgle went on to say those seeking reparations through the courts "face insurmountable problems..."
    in proving that they have been suffered "at the hands of the defendants (corporations)." He added that despite terms like "intentional representation" and "unjust enrichment," plaintiffs failed to prove in "concrete" terms that they've been individually harmed, and thus, fail to have standing.

    "Plaintiffs cannot establish a personal injury sufficient to confer standing by merely alleging some genealogical relationship to African-Americans held in slavery over 100, 200, or 300 hundred years ago," Norgle wrote, adding that the lawsuit was brought too late, and only the president of the United States or the Congress has the power to make amends.

    "Claims asserting harms against groups of long-dead victims, perpetrated by groups of long-dead wrongdoers, are particularly difficult to bring in modern American courts of law."

    Norgle's decision effectively kills the reparation drive in federal District Court. Its only chance now is in the US Seventh Circuit Court of Appeals.

    Now another ground rule when I mention:

    *white gods = JP Morgan Chase and other in the suit for reparations

    Q: How are the 'white gods' celebrating this quoted victory by a federal judge?

    Check it out :

    Ok if you dont see check out the right hand corner there...See something yeah which leads me to this answer one or more of the following questions:

    How 'white gods' caught Olgletree, the Reparation Movement as I defined earlier, and their supporters in their own craftiness and ended up making fools out of them?

    How being trained entirely by 'white gods' and their ruthless minions equal failure for poor American*[Note anybody living in the system they run is considered poor, you could be a billioniare or penny-naire you still poor to them] especially the 'black' Americans with greedy intentions who challenge their authority directly like this case of reparations and expecting to live confortably in their presence?

    How 'white gods' make a mockery of you [could be anyone, but lets leave it as us living 'black' Americans' who expect wins from our victory over them and then expect to be a peace from challenging them in their system] and not your 'wise' ancestors?

    Oh I got the answer what is the mockery I am refering to check this website:

    How 'white gods' are above the law of the land?

    How we should be studying the ways of our ancestor in their approach at handling this situation and not make fools of their legacy?

    How 'white gods' waste your energy ie will? Your will become a sacrifice or prayers to the 'white gods' to rain manna into your empty pot since you discard it to them in the first place. Your energy is directed at the white gods fat wallet instead of the great will and guidance that our slave ancestor left for us?

    One more thing where is Olgatree, Jr. he should be the one telling us this not a mere fool like me?

    I don't see an answer to my question in all that BULLSHIT you just wrote Dusty. It's not that hard:

    Why do you equate advocating for Reparations to "asking for help"???

    This is what you said:
    And we as a people in this country US have been making it so far so why we need to stop and ask for some help recently.

    Now, I'll ask you again:
    Why do you equate advocating for Reparations to "asking for help"???

    Notice you had little, hell nothing at all to say about "White gods"... You were talking about "We As A People"... So I've asked you why you try to FRAME things in the way you do. And, on that, you have been SILENT.

    Of course you are and remain SILENT. You and I both know exactly how IRRELEVANT those two concepts -- us "making it" and "asking for help" -- are to the idea of Reparations. That's why you're running around like a chicken with your head cut-off ranting about Ogletree when you can't even support your on little statement that I questioned back on PAGE 1.

    It's no wonder why you self-identify as a "FOOL." sck
    Fool mode again

    Here's a time line

    Olgatree started his 'team' in 1999 and this decision against JP Morgan Chase happen in 2002 and now its 2005 meaning Olgatree 'spent' 7 quality health years psyching you up on false promises that will be a guanranteed failure assured by the 'white gods'. In order to beat the 'white gods' currently you will need the majority to champion your cause. The majority include those bitter judges dismissing cases.

    Who is the majority? Well let me see, they look really pale and they sometime treat you almost like an equal and other time see you as a threat to their existance. They run the gamut in intelligence. They speak a language called American English. If you watch TV play games etc you have cross them. They say they are Republican. They say they are Democrat. They look up to so called 'great' people like George Washington, Thomas Jefferson, etc who shape this country despite their tremendous flaws.

    However since they have emotions like you, they sometimes show signs of compassion and this is what you have to strike in order to get that victory otherwise Olgatree is ready to 'spend' another 7 more years, wow a lucky number, of your life in premeditated defeat.

    Ah how history repeats itself and no wonder our living old black members among us say we dont have common sense.

    Dont let greed spoil our ancestor reparations. Its as simple as that.

    Finished again.
    I don't see an answer to my question in all that BULLSHIT you just wrote Dusty. It's not that hard:

    Why do you equate advocating for Reparations to "asking for help"???

    This is what you said:
    And we as a people in this country US have been making it so far so why we need to stop and ask for some help recently.

    Now, I'll ask you again:
    Why do you equate advocating for Reparations to "asking for help"???

    It's no wonder why you self-identify as a "FOOL." sck
    Olgatree [sic] is ready to 'spend' another 7 more years, wow a lucky number, of your life in premeditated defeat.

    That is absolute convoluted sophistry at its not so finest.

    Besides Olgetree, Robinson, Franklin, et al, the National Black Law School Students Association, is also working on the reparations front. The only ones 'spending' anything on premediated defeat are those like you Dusty. You've spent precious time trying desparately to justify your naysaying of an effort you admit is just.

    Black folks have a record of not wanting to rock the boat, to go along to get along, to be better than the white folks or to prove how we don't need them to succeed by stoicly accepting unjust treatment. Even the victims of the 1921 Tulsa Riot ran for their lives and then refused to share the whole story with even their descendants because "the past is past", though in fact the past determines the future... the past is prologue. In that instance, their silence and meekness laid the foundation for their defeat in seeking justice.

    Personally, I'd rather stand with the roused rabble who have always paved the way for the rest of us to walk a bit easier on.
    Three Banks Targeted by Reparations ActivistsBy Carmen Cusido

    © 2005

    December 14, 2005
    A slavery-reparations group has launched a boycott against three national banks it alleges have ties to slavery. The boycott is aimed at reducing their student-loan portfolios.
    The three banks whose predecessors have been linked to slavery declined to comment on the boycott or the pending lawsuit for reparations affecting two of them. However, all said they are actively involved in helping black students obtain affordable college educations.
    The boycott has been coordinated by The Restitution Study Group, a nonprofit organization headed by Deadria Farmer-Paellmann, the lead plaintiff in a slavery-reparations lawsuit against several corporations, including JPMorgan Chase and FleetBoston, which was bought out by Bank of America in 2004. Wachovia, which is one of the banks targeted in the boycott, is not part of the lawsuit.

    The campaign, titled "One Student," is advising students not to take loans from these banks. Farmer-Paellman said there would be students on campuses distributing fliers about the campaign.
    "We do intend to make them aware. The companies already know what our demand is," she said. Although she declined to specify amounts, the demands are for a trust fund to be set up for more scholarships and funds for black students and overall to "better the lives of black Americans."
    DiversityInc Bookstore

    DiversityInc Book Review When Affirmative Action Was White
    An Untold History of Racial Inequality in Twentieth-Century America
    Political science and history professor, Ira Katznelson, explains that all the key programs passed during the New Deal and Fair Deal era of the 1930s and 1940s were created in a deeply discriminatory manner. This was no accident...
    For More Information
    The three banks all have long histories of strong involvement with the black community. JPMorgan Chase is No. 25, Bank of America is No. 26 and Wachovia is No. 31 on The DiversityInc Top 50 Companies for Diversity list.
    Farmer-Paellmann is the lead plaintiff in the lawsuit filed in 2002 in New York but later moved to Chicago. It was dismissed initially but she is appealing that now in the Seventh District Court of Appeals.

    U.S. District Judge Charles R. Norgle said in a Jan. 26, 2004, CNN interview that the longstanding doctrine in matters involving political questions "bars the court from deciding the issue of slavery reparations, an issue that has been historically and constitutionally committed to the legislative and executive branches of our government."
    As for the timing, he said the plaintiffs had failed to show how the wrongs cited in the lawsuit fall within the statute of limitations. The judge again dismissed the reparations lawsuit in July 2005.

    The three banks that are being boycotted all responded to DiversityInc.
    A spokesperson for JPMorgan Chase provided a statement that said in January, the bank made a public announcement about its predecessors, Citizens Bank and Canal Bank of Louisiana, which had links to the enslavement of approximately 13,000 Africans for the collateral of loans and owned 1,250 slaves. JPMorgan Chase apologized and established a $5-million scholarship program for black students living in Louisiana. Dubbing it SmartStart Louisiana, JPMorgan Chase offers full tuition for black undergrads to attend colleges in their home state.
    Angela Barker, communications manager for Wachovia, said Wachovia provides affordable loans and innovative, customer-friendly services to help a broad, diverse group of students achieve their educational goals. "Wachovia seeks to create an inclusive business environment alike where people are treated fairly regardless of differences," she said.

    Wachovia is not named in the lawsuit. Farmer-Paellmann the Restitution Study Group, met with Wachovia in the summer. "We had an expectation that they would make reparations payments," she said. In June, DiversityInc reported that Wachovia made the announcement that two of its predecessor companies either owned slaves or held them as collateral.

    In Wachovia's apology issued earlier this summer, the bank said that research revealed that two of its predecessor institutions, the Georgia Railroad and Banking Company and the Bank of Charleston, did own slaves.
    Bank of America conducted internal and external research, hiring the Heritage Research Center firm for its external research, and formally announced the results of the study in August of this year.

    "The study concluded that the bank did not identify any instances or occasions that it made a profit from slavery," said Bank of America spokesperson Diane Wagner.

    Wagner said the bank took steps to go to an outside firm after the city of Chicago's request for disclosure of any potential profits from slavery in the company's history.

    A prepared statement by Bank of America said the research firm Heritage Research Center did find two examples of connections to slavery in the histories of the bank's predecessors. Wagner said those institutions were Boatman's Bank, Southern Bank of St. Louis and the Bank of the Metropolis in Washington, D.C., involving customers who listed slaves as collateral for personal debts. In each case, the debts were paid and the banks never took possession of the slaves. The Bank of America Charitable Foundation, which Wagner said is one of the largest philanthropic charities in the nation, contributes greatly to the black community, she said.

    "We regret any of the actions that our predecessors have taken that support or tolerated the institution of slavery in America. We contribute to the economic progress of the African-American community through affordable-housing issues or philanthropic giving," said Wagner.
    Black folks have a record of not wanting to rock the boat, to go along to get along, to be better than the white folks or to prove how we don't need them to succeed by stoicly accepting unjust treatment. Even the victims of the 1921 Tulsa Riot ran for their lives and then refused to share the whole story with even their descendants because "the past is past", though in fact the past determines the future... the past is prologue. In that instance, their silence and meekness laid the foundation for their defeat in seeking justice.

    Personally, I'd rather stand with the roused rabble who have always paved the way for the rest of us to walk a bit easier on.

    We survived. It's not a complete loss. That is why I try to keep the faith like them, our slave ancestors and their pioneering descendants, that something greater is in store for us. We are their hope that this promise continues to be fulfilled. Our slaves ancestors werent paid in money and were penniless poor and broke. Today because of ourselves including the "white gods" we would not embrace them readily without them telling and PROVING to us we are of the same blood. In essence they have become strangers whose worth is equated in dollars and cents. That is slave thinking in my opinion. We should not boast not only in they did 'works' alone [building this country up] but in their faith ie 'decisions' also. These two things are interconnected and cannot stand alone by themselves. So this promise of hope is their only reward and we should all slave (agree) and free (disagree) share in it. Dont let it go to the wayside because of greed (you work, I eat ie relax no work mentality).

    Those that werent rabble rousers did ensure that we wont be alone in sharing in this great gift. Beside there will always be work to be done even after the point of acceptance. We all just need to ready to share in it. That's how I see it.

    Fool mode

    Here's what I got at JP Morgan Chase when I typed reparations in their search box.
    Results of Search for reparations. Results 0-0 of about 0. Search took 0.0 seconds.
    Sort by: Date / Relevance

    Did you mean: preparations


    Wow they are testing if you are ready for them. They have great confidence just like a "god"?

    Now here is what I get a Wachovia when I type reparations.


    Search Results

    You asked: "reparations" Search Tips
    We weren't able to find any helpful information.

    Please review the following search tips and try your search again:
    "¢ Use English or Spanish words
    "¢ Use correct spelling
    "¢ Use spaces between words (like you are typing a sentence), if you are searching by question or phrase


    No help it says. How can you call yourself a 'god'?

    Lastly here is Bank of America when I typed 'reparations'.



    Bank of America | Help | Overview

    Bank of America | Personal Finance | Foreign Currency | Overview

    Bank of America | Careers | Overview

    Bank of America | Inside Bank of America | Investor Relations | Overview

    Bank of America | Facts | Overview

    Bank of America | Student Center | Overview

    Bank of America | Financial Education and Tools | Overview

    In essence you are either working for them or get with their program. Basically 'WORSHIP' them. No payback there.

    'White gods' seem to have 'everything' under control.

    Last edited {1}
    Question? Where would they get the money to pay us? More then likely the US govt. would do something crooked to pay us. I agree with Anne more then likely they would give us blood money. Not money money free of blood or strings. They would do something to that money. That either taxes us more or takes away something we already have. I'm for reparations. The Copr and Govt aren't going to give us anything williy nilly. You can't trust the US govt for reparations for us.
    Reparations must happen. But Reparations doesn't necisarrily have to be constructed as a cash settlement. It could be engineered in the form of a lifetime income and property tax deferment. Business tax deferment. Free college education. Free lifetime healthcare.

    I believe these options would be more viable and actually benefit us in the long run rather than a cash settlement.
    Fool mode

    Wants to thank art_gurl for this topic she posted.

    PBS: Slavery And the Making Of America

    Now we all know how much PBS, public broadcasting service, provide documentaries on the African experience in America. Well PBS dont want to tell you, JP Morgan and PBS were good friends before this time playing another one of those mind games the made mockery of the REPARATION MOVEMENT.

    I will continue at another moment something slightly better came up....

    Fool mode off

    Back with being a fool again. Now here it is.

    PBS with another J.P. Morgan mockery. AKA White GODS

    Here's the groundwork.

    1) Name another former series on PBS that spoke of the experience of enslaved
    Africans in the United States of America?

    African in America

    2) Who was their national sponsor?

    Bankers Trust

    3) Who is Bankers Trust?

    Bankers Trust aka Bankers Trust Corporation aka...


    B. Relevant Bankers Trust Entities

    During the relevant time period, Bankers Trust was a wholly-owned subsidiary of Bankers Trust New York Corporation ("BTNY") (now known as Bankers Trust Corporation), a publicly-held bank holding company incorporated in New York, New York. At all relevant times BTNY's stock was registered with the Commission pursuant to Section 12(g) of the Exchange Act and was listed and traded on the New York Stock Exchange.1 On June 4, 1999, Deutsche Bank A.G. completed its acquisition of Bankers Trust Corporation. Bankers Trust Corporation subsequently was merged with a wholly-owned subsidiary of Deutsche Bank, with Bankers Trust Corporation as the surviving corporation.


    and also


    Bankers Trust New York Corporation, headquartered in New York City, is a registered bank holding company incorporated in 1965. Its principal banking subsidiary, Bankers Trust Company, began business in 1903 as a trust company and became a commercial bank in 1917. In the early 1980's, BT sold its retail branch network and redirected its resources toward wholesale banking. BT focused its business on major corporations, financial institutions, governments and high net-worth individuals worldwide. BT is a universal bank holding company that operates in the world's financial markets.

    Consistent with this business strategy, BT is organized globally into two principal units. The first, Financial Services, brings together the firm's financing, derivative, advisory and trading capabilities. The second is Global Assets, which contains the trust, investment management, securities processing, cash management and private banking businesses. Domestic, corporate debt and equity underwriting powers are exercised by BT Securities Corporation, a wholly-owned subsidiary. Within and across these businesses, there are five business functions that represent the fundamental roles that are performed in the marketplace: client finance, client advisory, client financial risk management, client transaction processing and trading and repositioning.

    For additional information, Bankers Trust



    3) Who help found Bankers Trust?

    Bankers Trust Corporation

    This company was founded in 1903 as a trust company for commercial banks which were precluded from engaging in trust business at the time. Therefore, in fact as well as in name, it was a trust company for banks. The banks were not allowed to perform any fiduciary services, and it is for this principal reason that J. P. Morgan and other colleagues were instrumental in the forming of Bankers Trust Company.


    4) Where is JP Morgan and what is he doing now?

    JP Morgan now in matrimoney with Chase. and totally playing a good joke on the REPARATIONS MOVEMENT. What is a joke?

    5) What is PBS with the big money it made from Bankers Trust doing now?

    Trying to get more money with

    Finished.... But I just discovered something else

    Back to fool mode....

    Last edited {1}
    Political foot balls. Our favorite affirmative action opponent in California Proposition 209 has a few words to share.

    Mr. Ward Connelly has his views but he just laid the groundwork for PBS.

    Who stole the REPARATION MOVEMENT check?

    Here's the story

    The new shakedown

    by Ward Connerly and Edward Blum Saturday, Mar. 30, 2002 at 9:02 PM

    Every Mafiosi knows that once a business starts paying him for protection, the premiums grow larger and larger until he gets it all.

    In a warm-up match for the forthcoming battle over slavery reparations, MetLife Inc., the nation's largest life insurance company, recently announced it will set aside a quarter-of-a-billion dollars to settle a class-action lawsuit brought by former black policyholders. Nearly 60 years ago, MetLife sold life insurance policies to blacks that were more expensive and provided fewer benefits than policies marketed to whites.

    For this past practice, MetLife shareholders, employees and policyholders will pay a steep price. In its defense, MetLife claimed the statute of limitations had run out for the plaintiffs. Furthermore, it argued, the company began phasing out race-based underwriting in 1948 and hadn't used race at all since the mid-60s. In any event, the company also claimed that selling these weekly-pay burial policies to low-income, inner-city customers made perfect sense because most had difficulty paying larger monthly premiums. Besides, the actuarial cost of insuring blacks "” whose life expectancy was much shorter and incomes much lower "” was dramatically greater than insuring middle-class whites. None of these arguments, however, persuaded a New York appellate court, which rejected MetLife's motions for summary judgment and paved the way for a full trial. Sensing a public relations nightmare, MetLife crumbled and wrote the check.

    Meanwhile, the slavery reparations movement "” including high-profile black lawyers such as Johnnie Cochran "” has just filed a new lawsuit against Aetna, CSX and FleetBoston claiming they profited from the American slave trade prior to 1865. Although the slavery reparations lawsuits will eventually target the U.S. government, most observers "” even the pro-reparations activists themselves "” understand that getting the courts to find for the descendants of slavery and against the federal government, 137 years after the institution was abolished seems remote. So Mr. Cochran, Jesse Jackson, Al Sharpton and the others really have their sights leveled on corporate America. They anticipate that the cry for help from the two-dozen or so blue-chip corporations they target "” who, like MetLife, face litigation and boycotts "” will pressure the federal government to fashion a legislative remedy.

    But even if the federal government doesn't offer them a bailout, the reparations lawyers know it is in the court of public opinion where most racial-bias lawsuits are settled. Texaco, Denny's, Coca Cola and others have settled specious bias claims rather than have Mr. Sharpton, Mr. Jackson and the members of the Congressional Black Caucus call for a nationwide boycott of their companies. This is not some big, secret strategy for the reparations crowd, either. Randall Robinson, author of "The Debt," the manifesto of the reparations movement, was quoted in USA Today as admitting, "Once the record is fleshed out and made fully available to the American people, I think companies will feel some obligation to settle. Regret is not good enough. Aetna made money derivatively at least, from the business of slavery ... Aetna has to answer for that." And judging from how most of corporate America has responded to racial-bias allegations in the past, they will pay up once again, even though polling results indicate only 11 percent of white respondents believe corporations that made profits from slavery should make cash payments to black Americans who are descendants of slaves. But frankly, in a perverse way, many of these companies deserve their fate.

    Once they started down the road of paying for lawsuit protection in the form of diversity training, affirmative action hiring and promotion, and cultural awareness, they were doomed. Every Mafiosi knows that once a business starts paying him for protection, the premiums grow larger and larger until he gets it all. MetLife should have gone to court and fought. Other American companies, however, should learn an important lesson from this: elevating an individual's race as an element in contracting, hiring and promoting won't indemnify your company from a racial-bias litigation. In the end, every American pays for this capitulation since companies inevitably pass on their expenses to consumers. But most tragically of all is the cost borne by black Americans, who ultimately pay the steepest price for this corporate surrender.

    As author Shelby Steele has noted, too many blacks suffer "from bad ideas, from ignorance, fear, a poor assessment of reality and from a politics that commits them to the idea of themselves as victims." His voice is complimented by National Public Radio's Juan Williams who has stated that slavery reparations "would tell Americans . . . that blacks, especially poor blacks, are a broken people who must be treated as wards of the state. Black people would be more highly stigmatized and negatively stereotyped than ever before." Our society struggles to overcome the myth that many blacks are simply unable to make it in America. Slavery reparations are tailor-made not only to foster a sense of black victimhood, but further reinforce the stigma of black inferiority. If corporate America takes the easy way out and abandons principle, it won't be a surprise "” only a shame.

    Ward Connerly is chairman and Edward Blum is director of legal affairs at the American Civil Rights Institute.


    Seems like Metlife wet the appetite of Mr Cochran and Mr. Olgetree to go directly head on at the White Gods. But didnt Olgetree want some of those dollars.  He probably had to ask (no bold enough to demand what he did not work for) but guess who was the decision-maker in the case

    Who is that? That's New York Met Life.

    So if MetLife is the decision maker. What did they do with the money?  Check out what Atlanta Life Insurance, the largest black insurance company in America got from MetLife.



    ATLANTA, GA (Monday, November 14, 2005) – Atlanta Life Insurance Company and MetLife, through its MetLife Resources division, announced its agreement with the Rainbow/PUSH Coalition to launch a retirement education program to the 1,000 Churches Connected.

    "This is an exceptional opportunity for Atlanta Life," said Ronald D. Brown, President and CEO, Atlanta Life Financial Group. "We proudly take our place as part of the team that will help to educate and provide assistance to the entire 1,000 Churches Connected family."

    1,000 Churches Connected is an initiative of the Rainbow/PUSH Coalition designed to bring the message of economic responsibility to families through churches across the country. The focus of the program is to assist pastors, churches, church employees, and individual congregation members who currently lack or need to supplement their retirement benefit programs.

    "MetLife Resources is honored to be chosen by Atlanta Life to partner with them to help educate ministers about retirement issues and the financial solutions available to them," said Thomas G. Hogan, head of MetLife Resources. "Being a part of the recent 1,000 Churches Connected conference in Atlanta was a great first step. MetLife’s vision is to build financial freedom for everyone, and our representatives look forward to fulfilling this vision through continuing this educational program on a local level with ministers and their congregations."

    "The Atlanta Life Financial Group and MetLife look forward to working with each member of the 1,000 Churches Connected to achieve economic liberty and prosperity," said Leonard Grimes, Vice President, Group and Reinsurance Sales.

    Following the event, MetLife Resources representatives will travel to local churches to continue to educate about retirement issues.

    MetLife’s and Atlanta Life’s relationship began in 2002 when MetLife and Atlanta Life’s flagship insurance subsidiary, Atlanta Life Insurance Company, formed a reinsurance alliance to provide group life insurance and accidental death and dismemberment benefits. Atlanta Life is also the investment manager of $150 million of MetLife’s general account assets.

    About Rainbow/PUSH Coalition
    The Rainbow PUSH Coalition is a progressive organization, which seeks to protect, defend and gain civil rights, even the economic and educational playing fields in all aspects of American life and bring peace to the world. The organization is headquartered at 930 E. 50th St. in Chicago. For more information about the Rainbow PUSH Coalition, please visit the organization’s website,, or telephone (773) 373-3366.

    About MetLife
    MetLife Resources, a division of MetLife (Metropolitan Life Insurance Company), provides retirement plans and other financial services to healthcare, education, and not-for-profit organizations. Annuities issued by Metropolitan Life Insurance Company, New York, NY 10166. MetLife variable annuities are sold by prospectus only. The prospectus contains information about the product's features, investment objectives, risks, charges and expenses and the investment objectives, risks and policies of the underlying funding options, which should be considered carefully before investing. Please read the prospectus carefully before investing.

    MetLife, a subsidiary of MetLife, Inc. (NYSE: MET) is a leading provider of insurance and other financial services to millions of individual and institutional customers throughout the United States. Through its subsidiaries and affiliates, MetLife, Inc. offers life insurance, annuities, automobile and homeowner’s insurance and retail banking services to individuals, as well as group insurance, reinsurance and retirement and savings products and services to corporations and other institutions. Outside the U.S., the MetLife companies have direct insurance operations in Asia Pacific, Latin America and Europe. For more information, please visit

    About Atlanta Life
    Atlanta Life Insurance Company is an operating unit of Atlanta Life Financial Group. Atlanta Life Insurance Company provides group life products to Fortune 500 companies and funding products to help consumers preplan and prearrange their funerals. Atlanta Life Financial Group, Inc. is a privately owned financial services company that helps consumers, businesses and communities build and protect wealth. Its other business unit, Atlanta Life Investment Advisors, offers portfolio products that help institutions and high net worth individuals build and protect wealth. For more information about Atlanta Life, please visit the company's Web site at


    Holly Sheffer
    (212) 578-4072
    2004 Press Releases
    2004 Press Releases
    Search MetLife News

    As you begin to notice, About Rainbow/PUSH Coalition aka Jesse Jackson had to get involved with MetLife to aid in its commitment to creating a race neutral environment.  MetLife did not intiate this alone.  Metlife had to be pushed and seemingly they were begrudgely upholding or forming this relationship. 

    Life a fool said they never like US from the start and THEY still dont like us now [government and businesses].

    So some money has been spent but not a quarter of a billion dollars.  Now who is getting the REPARATIONS check from MetLife.

    Public Broadcasting Service or PBS with MetLife sponsoring Slavery in America series this upcoming February a part of 'black' history month.

    Who decided this?

    Oh, psychological problems with white people again and another mockery by the WHITE GODS to the REPARATION MOVEMENT

    PBS got your check!

    Look, the only way to have reparations is simple:

    Only give reparations to grand children of actual slaves.

    This would help end the debate over reparations.

    How can any American who immigrated to the U.S. after slavery (Irish and Italians mainly) be forced to pay reparations. They weren't not complicit in Slavery.

    Final Point: I remember the Abestos lawsuits. The primary lawyer was Peter ?, owner of the Baltimore Orioles. The average abestos claimant got about 25K, while Peter got nearly 400 million and bought a baseball team with this money.

    If actual money changes hands, what will the lawyers get vs the claimants?
    Originally posted by Major Barber:

    Look, the only way to have reparations is simple:

    Only give reparations to grand children of actual slaves.

    I'm not sure I understand you. Are you saying "grandchildren" literally or figuratively? Of course reparations would not be appropriate for anyone who was not a slave descendent.

    Are you suggesting, though, that there was damage, but that it was repaired by the third generation after slavery? If so, how?

    How can any American who immigrated to the U.S. after slavery (Irish and Italians mainly) be forced to pay reparations. They weren't not complicit in Slavery.

    In my view, reparations has nothing to do with personal complicity and everything to do with satisfying an obligation of the U.S. government. In the same way that my tax dollars, in part, pay for all sorts of things that I had nothing to do with or do not support, reparations would be handled in the same manner.

    Final Point: I remember the Abestos lawsuits. The primary lawyer was Peter ?, owner of the Baltimore Orioles. The average abestos claimant got about 25K, while Peter got nearly 400 million and bought a baseball team with this money.

    If actual money changes hands, what will the lawyers get vs the claimants?

    It would seem fairly easy to construct this in a way that makes sense vis-a-vis that issue. Also remember though - this will probably be as much of a political issue as a legal one.
    Originally posted by Major Barber:

    How can any American who immigrated to the U.S. after slavery (Irish and Italians mainly) be forced to pay reparations. They weren't not complicit in Slavery.

    Does this mean that my wife doesn't have to pay federal income taxes on her share of the federal debt, since she was living in Colombia when the debt was incurred?


    Why do some African Americans against reparations make statements such as "you can't put a price tag on my ancestors suffering, etc.?" However, the slave master was able to put a price tag on the worth of that same slave when he put said slave on an auction block.

    Why are we the only ethnic group making such nonsensical statements? The Jews had NO problems putting a price tag on their relative's pain and suffering. The Japanese had NO problems putting a price tag on theirs. Another thing, when an African American is accused of committing a crime against a member of another race the survivors of the victims have NO problem putting a financial value on their deceased or injured love one. The families of Nicole Brown Simpson and Ronald Goldman had NO problem putting a price tag on the lives of their loved ones. The victims (or alleged victims) of sexual abuse by Michael Jackson had NO problem throwing out a dollar figure on what they feel their abuse was worth. The white victims of 9/11 had NO problems putting a price tag on what they feel the Saudi Arabian govt owed them for the death of their relatives.

    Have some African Americans been so damaged by slavery and racism that we no longer feel as if our lives or the lives of our ancestors have no worth? It seems to me that this is the case since we always seem to have a problem putting a financial value on our pain and suffering when we are the human beings who have been damaged the most.
    Why do some African Americans against reparations make statements such as "you can't put a price tag on my ancestors suffering, etc.?" However, the slave master was able to put a price tag on the worth of that same slave when he put said slave on an auction block.

    I dont think African Americans are against reparation. You may have not listen or understood well enough. We just want to have freedom and equality in this system also. The Jew with his new found money want to be in this system. As long as he can do more than before with his new found money. Still there are whites that dont like them but the Jew can use that to his advantage with white skin and comparing himself or herself to blacks. The Jew likes his position in society [ask an average Jew if they would want to be in an average black position and there's your answer] but wants to gain more money. The same with the Japanese Americans. Since they have the money and higher racial caste priviledge [compared to blacks] they will receive better treatment in white society that have us inside at the bottom of the caste. With our money white society will STILL see us as UNEQUAL.

    If we take the money and still looked at as the bottom of this racial hierachy it will not do us any good. That is why we have to use different techniques than the Jew and the Japanese etc in combatting not only past crimes but our present predicament and ...


    Originally posted by Dusty Elbow:
    With our money white society will STILL see us as UNEQUAL.

    It doesn't matter how THEY look at us. With or without money or education or dark skin or light skin or straight hair or small noses, etc., they will look at us as inferior. The effort is not to change their opinion of US. Anyone who gives one whit about their opinion after all evidence proves they will never hold us in high regard is sadly dependent on their approval.

    That is why we have to use different techniques than the Jew and the Japanese etc in combatting not only past crimes but our present predicament and ...

    There's nothing we need to do different EXCEPT stop looking for their approval and reacting from a subordinate psychological position, because their APPROVAL or CHANGED OPINION is not the goal or purpose of reparations.
    Nothing wrong with what you said except that is what these court cases for reparations represent. To get somebody's approval. And these court cases dont take place in black communities but downtown mainstream communities where your bound to see your white counterpart weighing this cause for reparations. And they dont need to put on black face to insult you this time around. It's all premeditated.

    Fool mode

    Don't despair though, it seems that the Cherokee Nation's highest court is willing to take you in. You do want Cherokee approval don't you. Enough black Americans publically and privately attest their beauty to some Cherokee ancestor.

    Well here's your chance.

    Indian court recognizes descendants of black freedmen

    TAHLEQUAH, Okla. The Cherokee Nation's highest court says descendants of freed slaves who joined the tribe in the 1800s must be recognized as citizens of the tribe.
    The ruling by the Judicial Appeals Tribunal overturns a previous decision against the so-called "freedmen." The court says the Cherokee Nation Council was wrong in limiting tribal membership because it contradicts the 1975 tribal constitution.

    The freedmen included free blacks and former slaves who settled in the lands of the Five Civilized Tribes following the Trail of Tears. Those freedmen were listed with the Cherokees in an 1866 Treaty with the U-S government.

    The ruling means as many as thousands of new members are now eligible to vote in tribal elections and have access to tribal health care, housing and other services.

    Copyright 2006 Associated Press. All rights reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten, or redistributed.

    Yeap I wonder if the white cherokee oxymoron and black cherokee oyymoron can drop their labels with just being Cherokee.

    They got a setup for you. Dont turn this down if your low on determination and wish to be sitting pretty with you "other" ancestors. The only drawback is that most blacks that boast of Cherokee blood do not have the "documents" to back it up. Something this Cherokee high court knows so well.

    Wow 31 years of barring black freedman and now your opening the door. Very mysterious and very suspect. Now who had the bleeding heart to make a decision like this.

    Me, I will stick with what I got and the hope that our enslaved African ancestors left for us to follow. It has worked so far in my current life why pursue another.

    Last edited {1}

    What! Oh no Cochran legacy is turning a different tune.

    Just read.

    L.A. blacks alarmed by Cochran changes


    LOS ANGELES (UPI) -- Many in the black community of Los Angeles are upset by major changes in the law firm of the late Johnnie Cochran Jr., it was reported Thursday.

    Cochran became an international figure during the 1995 trial of O.J. Simpson, but before than he was known and respected among fellow blacks for tackling police abuse and civil rights cases, The Los Angeles Time said.

    His Cochran Firm, which boasts more than 125 attorneys in more than a dozen cities, has expanded from civil rights and civil cases but has come under fire for adding a criminal division, the newspaper said.

    Two black partners recently left the firm and the perception they were forced out by Cochran's three surviving co-founders -- two of whom are white -- has caused some alarm, the Times said. Even Cochran's family released a statement saying they were "disappointed in the personnel changes."

    "You can go to the barbershop, you can go to the supermarket, the church and hear the rumor about white folks taking over Johnnie Cochran's firm," Los Angeles political consultant Kerman Maddox said. "He's our last remaining hero. There are attorneys, and then there is Johnnie Cochran. All of us feel some kind of kinship with Johnnie."

    Copyright 2006 by United Press International.

    Guess reparations wont be on the agenda no more from Cochran side. Cochran a rich and famous man still toppled by White God Minions.  Olgetree we need you front and center.

    Oh the psychological problems with WHITE GODS still remain!

    Another mockery brought to us by WHITE GODS.

    Research finds racial divide among blacks, young Indians

    By Ron Knox

    Thursday, April 6, 2006

    Generations ago, many American Indian tribes and blacks searching for a free life held strong bonds.

    "Indian people had a perspective that everybody had a right," Haskell professor Mike Tosee said.

    But after years of research and interviews with current Haskell students, Tosee and others have found a stark difference in opinion in some younger American Indians.

    Experiences vary widely from reservation to reservation, Tosee said, and with some tribes having little exposure to black communities growing up, some young American Indians today judge blacks in a less than favorable light.

    Not surprising

    As a professor at Haskell, the results of the research so far haven't surprised him, he said. But he wants to see the trend end.

    So now, his project, the Ford Foundation-funded Shifting Borders of Race and Identity, will spend the next seven months constructing a curriculum to help fight the troubling trend where it often begins: in the classrooms that shape young American Indians' core values.

    For more than two years, the joint Haskell-Kansas University project has used a $300,000 Ford Foundation grant to explore the cultural connections between native and black communities, two groups the project deemed as the most historically significant minority communities in America.

    Similar histories

    The two distinct cultures share similar histories, the projects' researchers say. From the Creek-Freedman Indians to bonds between the Buffalo Soldiers and the Cherokee Tribe, American Indians and members of historical black communities lived and worked side-by-side.

    "There have been moments in history where there have been connections and alliances," said Zanice Bond de Perez, co-director of the project.

    To capture the connections, researchers and KU Indigenous Nations Studies graduate students have collected oral history interviews and other research that helps tell the story of a mutual racial understanding.

    But in the course of researching, Tosee said that the interviews have focused on cultural perceptions and views between the two races. And for some tribal members whose reservations were far removed from black culture, Tosee said it became difficult to see that similarities existed.

    Shared struggles

    In northern Wisconsin just outside of Green Bay, Jancita Warrington never saw many black faces on her reservation.

    "There were never blacks intermingled in the tribes," she said. "If so, it was very sporadic."

    The Menominee and Prairie Band Potawatomi native said her tribal elders knew the history of black tribal members around the country. But it took modern history to shed light on the shared struggles of the two cultures.

    In her time working with the project, Warrington, a KU graduate student, said she has heard similar stories from other American Indians.

    During the civil rights movement of the 1950s and '60s, black communities around the country fought for equal rights. And along with that, Warrington said, the American Indian movement grew "” the same struggle for equality by a different group of people.

    "They experienced the same kind of feelings of being outcast," she said. "It was a lot of the same things in the same context."

    Bond de Perez agrees. With so many parallels during modern struggles in often marginalized communities, she said that the connections between the races should be difficult to overlook.

    "I think it would be difficult, at least on some level, to not share culture," she said.

    Sharing connections

    But now the project's focus will center on how to share those connections. Bobbi Rahder, who is on the project's steering committee, said that she has spent time with her graduate students in KU's Indigenous Nations Studies department working on just that.

    Her focus has been on two areas, she said: how to present the information visually, and collecting data from oral history projects to help form healing narratives "” stories that will bridge the gap between tribal and black communities.

    But to truly bridge whatever gap may exist, the project's researchers say constructing a curriculum focusing on the historical and cultural parallels is necessary.

    "We have to help both races understand that they weren't singled out. They weren't the only ones going through this," Warrington said.

    The project will take the next five months leading up to its national conference in November to mold the sum of their findings into tools that educators can use to show the similarities, and, in some cases, the differences between the two groups.

    The education will begin on the college level, Rahder said, with KU classes forming as soon as next semester. But it's just a start.

    The project's directors hope teachers can teach the cultural connections to students of all ages.

    "I hope that will happen eventually," Rahder said.

    Contact forbidden

    Nikki Crowe, a Haskell sophomore, hopes so, too. A Chippewa from Wisconsin, she grew up in a home where her parents forbid contact with black kids her age. She couldn't watch the shows she wanted to, she said. Shows featuring black actors such as "Sanford and Son" and "The Jeffersons" were forbidden.

    She overcame her upbringing, she said, eventually marrying a black man. But she wished now that she could have seen the parallels between the cultures at a young age to learn then that native and black cultures have walked down similar paths.

    "It would have been nice," Crowe said, "if we'd have known the truth."


    Now where was the white indian in what I highlighted. Nowhere but black is mentioned as a front runner in change with WHITE GODS which helped who grow? Native Americans grow in disgust of the treatment WHITE GODS administer to us all in this country including whites who are disable, jew, etc.

    Let me repeat I do not want anybody to credit black people for anything because if its not in you dont do it.

    The truth will.
    Forum focuses on aid to black male students


    (Original publication: March 31, 2006)

    MOUNT VERNON "” When it comes to black males, public education is a broken system that needs to be restructured to ensure an equal education for all students.

    That was the sentiment of many parents and educators who attended a forum yesterday at Mount Vernon High School to discuss black males in public schools.

    At the African American Men of Westchester's "The Plight of the Black Male in Education II "” Dialogue to Action" forum, about 400 parents, activists and educators listened as a panel of experts discussed ways to combat the "crisis" of low test scores, high dropout rates and low college enrollment for black males.

    "The black male is incarcerated more than he is being educated," said Mount Vernon Mayor Ernest Davis. "We have to understand a system that is producing such dysfunction in the black male."

    But the forum didn't focus long on problems, such as crime and the reported sense of hopelessness black males feel in school. Instead, panelists, including officials from Mount Vernon and Woodlands high schools, shared ideas and programs that have succeeded in boosting black males' achievement.

    Ray Sanchez, assistant superintendent for elementary education and human resources in Ossining, said his district's "High Hopes and Expectations: The College Track" program is grooming black males for college, beginning in the sixth grade.

    Woodlands High School recently implemented its Woodlands Individualized Senior Experience, or WISE, program that allows students to implement self-directed projects and craft curriculums that interest them. A main critique of black male students is that established courses don't interest them, the educators said.

    In a wide-ranging talk that touched on racism, school segregation and black history, Harvard Law Professor Charles Ogletree said schools have to experiment with different methods to reach black males and teach them about their history to instill a sense of pride.

    "We are facing a crisis of unparalleled proportions," said Ogletree, calling on more adults to mentor youths. "You have to be committed to lifting the community up. We've accomplished so much with so little for so long. We can do it."

    Many parents said they hope more school districts launch similar programs.

    "We have to make sure that schools are more creative in keeping our students interested in learning," said Darnell Waters of White Plains, who attended the forum with her son. "But it starts at home with parents staying on our kids and keeping them busy."

    Her son, Steven Waters-Spady, 12, said his mother's involvement has helped him improve his grades and kept him from joining peers when they are cutting class.

    "I have to go to college, so I have to get good grades," said Steven, who wants to be an animator.

    Before the discussion began, Carlene Wallen of Chestnut Ridge sat solemnly with her two daughters and son. She is hoping to find a mentor for her son, a sophomore at a Catholic high school in the Bronx, to keep him from heading down the path of underachievement too many black males travel.

    "His grades are terrible. I have to find a way to give him some motivation," Wallen said as her son sat silently a few seats away. "I think it's a shame when we see our young men in jail or on the street with no prospects. I don't want that for him."

    To boost achievement among black males, teachers need to be willing to adopt different education techniques to address their needs, said Kevin Banks, dean of students at Pace University in White Plains. He said many black students face extraordinary pressure from and are chided by their peers for "acting white" if they do well in school.

    Banks said group projects and cooperative learning opportunities, in which students help each other, could benefit all students. But they also could combat the peer pressure faced by black males because students are setting goals for each other.

    Alan Colon, an education and African world studies professor at Dillard University in New Orleans, said black communities have to come together to save this and future generations of black males.

    "Education, real education, is the passport to our future," he said.

    Fool mode...

    Seems like Ogletree is doing what he does best.

    Follow the money.

    No where is he talk reparation with desperation like he did a year before.

    After New York Times published a report about the plight of young black males Ogletree jumped on the bus to give nationwide leacture to PROFIT off the misery of young black males.

    Too bad his message is getting watery by the second.

    Guess those WHITE GODS retire him pretty quick.

    Fight over Cherokee identity intensifies
    print | email this story

    Lucy Allen says she has Cherokee blood and maintains that members of her family, once slaves to Cherokee Indians, became freedmen and citizens of the Cherokee Nation under a federal treaty of 1866.
    By ADAM GELLER | Associated Press
    February 10, 2007

    TAHLEQUAH, Okla. "” When Lucy Allen sets out to tell her family's story, she first finds an empty room with plenty of open table space.

    Others, she knows, illustrate their ancestral legends by passing around a single prized photograph or diagram of the family tree. But Allen arrives wheeling two big black suitcases, each stuffed with enough supporting evidence to do Perry Mason proud.

    "This is my father," she begins, and directs long, thin fingers to a vintage oval-framed photograph swaddled in a towel.

    A long time ago, the man in the picture told his little girl she was born of Indians. They were Cherokees, he said, proud people, descended from a regal line.

    The girl loved those stories. But it wasn't until she had children of her own, that Allen realized the tales might have dimensions she'd never considered. And years later, a long-forgotten document proved her suspicions right.

    It was just as her parents told her. Yes, she was black. But there was Cherokee in her veins, too.

    There was a catch, though, and it was bound to persist no matter how clear the evidence might seem to Allen.

    She could call herself an Indian. She and others like her could argue that, Indian blood or not, they had as much right to the Cherokee Nation's identity as anyone else.

    But Allen's "proof" could just as easily be cited to show her people were not real Cherokees at all, but a human burden a defeated tribe had been forced to shoulder.

    A century past, Allen's ancestors had secured what they thought was a permanent place in the tribe. Now, though, it was clear the only way she could ever be acknowledged as Cherokee would be to take on the very
    Cherokees who refused to count her as one of their own.

    Masters of black slaves

    This begins as one woman's story, but it is much more. It is the story of identity. Who are we? Who decides who we are?

    Each September, a crowd gathers under the shade trees surrounding the weathered brick of the old Cherokee Capitol to celebrate the remarkably resilient identity of the nation's largest Indian tribe.

    It is a pride-filled afternoon, with speeches, and songs performed in Cherokee by a children's choir.

    But as they celebrate their identity, Cherokees acknowledge the brutal history of efforts to extinguish it.

    "We stand here today on the shoulders of our ancestors, who endured the Trail of Tears and brought us to this place we call home," a speaker told the crowd last fall in Tahlequah.

    And yet while Cherokees are proud of their journey, there is one chapter most aren't taught.

    Long ago, as Cherokees struggled to remain independent of a white government, they were masters of black slaves.

    Cherokees and other tribes brought slaves with them, when the federal government forced them to leave the Southeast and march to the Indian Territory that would become Oklahoma. After the tribe backed the losing side in the Civil War, the government demanded Cherokees free slaves and make them citizens of the Cherokee Nation.

    The people, dubbed freedmen, embraced citizenship. They voted in tribal elections and ran for office. They served on the tribal council. They started businesses and became teachers in schools for freedmen children.

    What's difficult to know is how much "” before and after slavery ended "” the lives of Cherokees and blacks intertwined and the lines between them blurred.

    In the last 20 years, modern-day freedmen "” descended from former slaves, free blacks, and others "” have tried to reclaim citizenship. The resulting conflict provokes charges and countercharges that racism, greed and dirty politics are all at play.

    "Do you want non-Indians...using your Health Care Dollars?" warned an e-mail circulated last summer by backers of a vote on citizenship. "...getting your Cherokee Nation scholarship dollars?...making your Housing wait list longer?...being made Indians?"

    Now, the vote on citizenship is set "” for March 3.

    As they consider their decision, Cherokees have reason to be suspicious.

    The federal government pays about three-quarters of the tribal government's $350 million annual budget. But thanks to casinos,
    Cherokees' power to generate wealth and provide benefits is increasing.
    Meanwhile, dozens of groups of self-described lost Cherokees have popped up, some claiming a right to recognition.

    But Chad Smith, principal chief of the Cherokee Nation, says his tribe's conflict over citizenship "” similar to those confronting a number of tribes "” is not about politics or race.

    "It's just a fundamental right of not only determine your own future, but to determine your own identity," he says.

    The conflict, though, has drawn scrutiny to a part of history some Cherokees would just as soon have set aside. Circe Sturm, a University of Oklahoma professor, recalls how Cherokees tried to dissuade her when she began studying the issue a decade ago.

    "I think for some people it was sort of a shame about that being part of history," she says. "There was a kind of discomfort attached to it in many ways. It was like we've dealt with it and it's over."

    Well, maybe to some it was over.

    But that was a notion Lucy Allen and many others just couldn't abide.

    A blood link

    After 20 years spent raising a family and following her husband in his Army career, Lucy Allen discovered the blessing of time.

    Before long, she was spending hours in historical archives, prospecting for clues to back up her family's oft-told mythology.

    "Once you start on this, if you get something, you're hooked," she says.

    Oh, was she ever.

    Allen, now 74 and the widow of a career Army man, quickly found her ancestors on Cherokee citizenship rolls from the early 1900s. The lists were compiled by the Dawes Commission "” set up by a Congress bent on breaking up Indians' collective lands and parceling them out to tribal citizens. Many Indians were soon swindled out of their land, or lost it to financial hardship.

    The Commission, though, drew up two rolls. One listed Cherokees by blood. The other, where Allen's ancestors were listed, was for freedmen "” a roll of blacks, regardless of whether they had Indian blood.

    Then, in the early 1990s, nearly two decades after beginning her search, a manila envelope from the National Archives arrived in Allen's Tulsa mailbox. Papers inside offered a window back to a long forgotten afternoon.

    On that Thursday in 1901, a black farmer named William Martin "” Allen's great-grandfather "” headed for the colony of tents pitched by the Dawes Commission along a creek two miles outside his hometown.

    "How old would you be?" a mustachioed white official asked Martin, when he reached the tribunal's table.

    "Something over 40, I judge," replied Martin, son of a freed slave woman. She, too, was questioned.

    "What is your father's name?"

    "Joe Martin."

    "Was Joe Martin an Indian and a citizen of the Cherokee Nation?" the questioner asked Martin's mother.

    "Yes sir."

    The aged transcript was the link, Allen says, connecting her to Capt. Joseph L. Martin, a Confederate officer and Cherokee lord of a legendary 100,000-acre ranch.

    He owned 103 black slaves. And one, it seemed, had born him a son "” Allen's great-grandfather.

    As Allen studied the documents it became clear, "I'm more than my Dad ever told me. They're telling me his (William Martin's) daddy was a chief.

    Oh, yeah, I'm sticking my chest out, because I'm pretty proud."

    Indian lineage Allen unearthed on her father's side was at least as rich.

    But since the early 1980s, her request for a Certificate of Degree of Indian Blood "” issued only to those who can prove a link to someone on the commission's "by blood" rolls "” has been rejected eight times, Allen says.
    Rejection stings, she says, and others agree.

    Around Ruth Adair Nash's dining table in Bartlesville, discussion quickly fans indignation. Nash and brother Everett Adair say their genealogical sleuthing has turned up clear evidence that they are descendants of Cherokees.

    So Nash bridles at the suggestion that she claims blood just to get tribal benefits. Sure, they want access to benefits, she says. They are determined to have them precisely because the Cherokee Nation has continually denied them, she says.

    "They don't want this to be true," Nash says, waving copies of genealogical records.

    "It's because we're black. And when you're black "” get back!"

    Johnny Toomer, a forklift driver in Muskogee, sees it a little differently, his view framed by working alongside Cherokees. They look at his high cheekbones and dark eyes set against mocha skin, and tell him he must be right.

    "Johnny," they say, "you can see the Indian in you!"

    "Well," Toomer answers, "seeing it and proving it is quite a different thing."

    A victory for freedmen

    Allen continued digging.

    It took her to a meeting of freedmen descendants in 2003, where a man named David Cornsilk rose to speak.

    Cornsilk, 6-foot-2 and green-eyed, jokes that he's often mistaken for white, though he is Cherokee by blood. He worked years ago in the Cherokee Nation office that registers citizens and now is a store manager. But as an unpaid "lay advocate," he's poured himself into battling for freedmen descendants, convinced his tribe must honor its commitments.

    When Allen approached, Cornsilk had recently lost a case in the Cherokee Nation's top court "” which resolves disagreements over tribal law "” on behalf of another woman seeking citizenship. It was the latest in a series of court setbacks for freedmen, dating to the 1980s.

    Still, when "Lucy walked up to me and said, ˜What can I do?' " Cornsilk recalls, "I said, well, let's sue them."

    Lucy Allen v. Cherokee Nation Tribal Council, filed in 2004, asked the court to strike down a law making citizenship contingent on "proof of Cherokee blood."

    The issue, as framed by Cornsilk, was even older than the old Cherokee Capitol, where the judges heard the case.

    "We as a people must look back to where we have been to know where we are today," Cornsilk argued.

    "I apologize to you for being emotional about it. It's not my ego, it's my heart. It's what's been done in the name of David Cornsilk and all of the Cherokee people to these Cherokee people."

    But tribal lawyers argued that Cherokees "” who approved a Constitution in 1975 reserving membership for "citizens as proven by reference to the Dawes Commission Rolls" "” had already made clear freedmen should not be counted among them.

    "It's not unreasonable to require someone to be Cherokee to be a citizen of the Cherokee Nation," Richard Osburn, an attorney for the tribe, told the court.

    Seven months later, a divided court issued its ruling.

    "If the Freedmen's citizenship rights existed on the very night before the 1975 Constitution was approved, then they must necessarily survive today," Justice Stacy Leeds wrote for the 2-1 majority, last March. "The Cherokee Nation is much more than just a group of families with a common ancestry."

    Allen, celebrating the answer she'd been waiting for, drove with her sons to Tahlequah to register as new citizens.

    Many Cherokees fight back

    But the court's decision alarmed many others.

    "It really shook me up," says John Ketcher, a respected former deputy chief. "We're not just going to sit here and twiddle our thumbs and let it happen."

    To Ketcher and others, the freedmen's quest for citizenship looks like a cash-grab "” for tribal health-care benefits, scholarships and other perks "” by people who have little true interest in the Cherokees. Growing up in Indian country, speaking Cherokee as his first language, Ketcher says he never saw a black person until he was 10, leaving him skeptical that freedmen descendants are part of the Cherokee community.

    "I think they want some of the goodies that are coming our way," he says.
    Many Cherokees share that sentiment, says Cara Cowan Watts, a tribal councilwoman.

    "A lot of our citizens, they never ask for anything from the tribe, so they see that as a personal affront," Cowan Watts says.

    "I didn't hear of freedmen until this whole issue came up," she says. "I didn't hear of them or meet them."

    Tribal officials reject criticism that the controversy stems from racism.
    Cherokees are one of the most racially tolerant Indian tribes, "and being portrayed as something hurtful," says Mike Miller, a spokesmen for the tribe.

    After the Allen ruling, critics collected more than 3,000 signatures demanding that Cherokee voters be allowed to decide. Smith, the chief, has called a vote for March 3.

    Earlier this month, a group of freedmen asked a federal judge to stop the vote from taking place. The court's response to that request "” part of an ongoing lawsuit by freedmen challenging the last tribal election because they were excluded from voting "” will be closely watched.

    If the referendum goes ahead, conventional wisdom is that, even with more than 1,500 new freedmen voters registered, they will be denied citizenship again.

    But the issue's complexity is evident in talk over cornbread and ham at a meeting of the Victory Cherokee Organization, a community group gathered above a storefront church in Collinsville. Chairman Danny Stanley calls the issue settled, saying members are "pretty much 100 percent" against having freedmen in the tribe.

    Some, though, say it isn't that simple.

    If freedmen are barred from citizenship, what's to say that people won't next try to bar those with limited Cherokee blood, Jewel Hendrix wonders.

    Her sister, Mary Burr, agrees.

    "I feel like you are (Cherokee) because you feel it in your heart, " Burr says.

    "You know that you are."

    Blood should not matter

    So what makes a Cherokee?

    Is it blood?

    While some freedmen descendants surely have Indian blood, the majority probably don't, says Daniel Littlefield Jr. of the University of Arkansas at Little Rock, and author of a book, The Cherokee Freedmen.

    But, Littlefield says, blood should not matter.

    Cherokees "” who also count Shawnee and Delaware Indians and adopted whites as citizens "” continued adopting blacks as citizens well after a treaty required it, making it hard to argue they were unwanted, he says. Once free to participate, there is ample evidence that black freedmen did just that.

    Is being Cherokee about sharing a culture?

    Long before the Civil War, Cherokee masters and black slaves crafted relationships that confounded stereotypes, says Tia Miles, a professor at the University of Michigan. Her book Ties that Bind: The Story of an Afro-Cherokee Family in Slavery examines those incongruities.

    Cherokees and blacks prayed side by side. Slaves were teachers to Cherokee children. They danced together, staged races together. They spent so much time together, that it frustrated white missionaries bent on keeping them apart, Miles says.

    Did Cherokees and blacks regard each other as family, friends, lovers? It's hard to know with certainty.

    "Yes, there was a line between who was enslaved and who was free and there was a line between who was Cherokee and who was black and who was white," Miles says. "And yet, Cherokee people were much more willing to bend that line than white slaveholders were in the South, and to cross that line."

    It's mostly over the last 100 years, after Jim Crow laws tried to separate races, that the intertwining of Cherokee and black unraveled, she says.
    Today, one of the most striking things about Indian country is the faces.
    Some prominent Cherokees of the past were products of intermarriage, and now a fair number of those who count themselves as Cherokee have fair skin or blue eyes or blond hair "” and limited Indian blood.

    Just 6,000 of the Cherokee Nation's 260,000 citizens speak Cherokee. If the language goes, John Ketcher worries what will become of his tribe.

    Still, he allows, there's long been something about being Cherokee that's defies quantifying.

    On a drive out of town, he points the way down a country road and past an old one-room schoolhouse. Just beyond, a largely forgotten cemetery tops a bluff. There rests John Ross, a legendary chief. He'd almost certainly be against granting citizenship to those without blood, Ketcher says.

    That is despite the fact that Ross was just one-eighth Cherokee.

    "Even though he was very little Cherokee, he was more a full-blood then some of our full-bloods," Ketcher says, with a sigh. "I think it's probably what's in the heart, eventually, you know."

    No quit in her

    The Cherokee Nation "” most of its land gone and its people spread across thousands of miles "” has rebuilt itself, in part, by redefining itself.

    "We basically have changed from a nation of territory to a nation of people," says Smith, the chief.

    Now the Nation will decide which people belong.

    But freedmen descendants, prepared for the prospect that their newly won citizenship could be revoked, say history has already made that decision and they will accept no other.

    If Cherokees reject her, Allen says she'll go back to court.

    "I'm not quitting. I'm still in for the fight," she says.

    "We might not ever see anything. But we're looking out for our children now "” and they wouldn't know where to begin."
    Lucy Allen has collected the documents to tell her family history and trace her ancestry as a member of the Cherokee tribe.
    Ruth Adair Nash, right, a descendent of freedmen, goes over family history papers with her granddaughter Rudi Thompson at Ruth's home in Bartlesville, Okla. Nash and her brother Everett Adair, second from left, say their genealogical sleuthing has turned up clear evidence that they are descendants of Cherokees.
    To John Ketcher and other Cherokees, the freedmen's quest for citizenship looks like a cash-grab "” for tribal health-care benefits, scholarships and other perks "” by people who have little true interest in the tribe.
    Posted on Sat, Feb. 10, 2007

    Court rules tribal casinos subject to labor laws

    Indian tribes are subject to federal labor laws, an appeals court ruled Friday in a case that could lead to stricter labor protections "” and more unions "” at the nation's booming Indian casinos. A three-judge panel of the U.S. Court of Appeals for the District of Columbia Circuit rejected arguments from a wealthy Southern California tribe that as a sovereign government, it should not be subject to those laws. The ruling stemmed from an organizing dispute at a casino run by the San Manuel Band of Mission Indians, 60 miles east of Los Angeles, where a union filed a complaint with the National Labor Relations Board arguing that another union was getting preferential access. At stake are protections and bargaining rights for some 250,000 workers at the nation's 400-plus tribal casinos. The ruling comes as tribal gambling has exploded into a $22 billion-a-year industry "” richer than Las Vegas "” with Indian casinos in 28 states.

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