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REPARATIONS MOVEMENT IN TROUBLE, A NEWS ANALYSIS, WEEK OF JULY 14-20, 2005

by CASH MICHAELS
The Wilmington Journal
Originally posted 7/18/2005

Is the movement to have reparations paid to the descendants of enslaved Africans in trouble?

Recent events, particularly a legal setback last week, suggests that the momentum slavery reparations advocates had in recent years may have significantly slowed, if not come close to a halt.

And public opinion, which was never really on the side of the movement, seems to have turned even more aggressive in its opposition.

Last week in Chicago, a federal judge threw out a 2002 lawsuit that, if successful, would have made 17 corporations that profited from the African slave trade, including J. P. Morgan Chase and R. J. Reynolds Tobacco pay, the descendants.

In his 104-page opinion, U.S. District Court Judge Charles Norgle said the attempt to seek reparations "more than a century after the end of the Civil War and the formal abolition of slavery fails."

Norgle recognized that slavery has caused "tremendous suffering and ineliminable scars," but "present day Americans are not morally or legally liable for historical injustices,...the debt to African-Americans has already been paid, and ...reparations talk is divisive, immersing African-Americans in a culture of victimhood."

Judge Norgle went on to say those seeking reparations through the courts "face insurmountable problems..."
in proving that they have been suffered "at the hands of the defendants (corporations)." He added that despite terms like "intentional representation" and "unjust enrichment," plaintiffs failed to prove in "concrete" terms that they've been individually harmed, and thus, fail to have standing.

"Plaintiffs cannot establish a personal injury sufficient to confer standing by merely alleging some genealogical relationship to African-Americans held in slavery over 100, 200, or 300 hundred years ago," Norgle wrote, adding that the lawsuit was brought too late, and only the president of the United States or the Congress has the power to make amends.

"Claims asserting harms against groups of long-dead victims, perpetrated by groups of long-dead wrongdoers, are particularly difficult to bring in modern American courts of law."

Norgle's decision effectively kills the reparation drive in federal District Court. Its only chance now is in the US Seventh Circuit Court of Appeals.

Saying that this was only the beginning, attorney Lionel Jean-Bapiste, the plaintiffs' lead counsel, acknowledged that the ruling was a bitter setback, but he assured that it will be appealed.

"There will be not be any slowing down of the efforts to get these corporations to pay back what they have amassed on the backs of millions of Africans," he said.

This isn't the first blow against slavery reparations struck by Judge Norgle.

In January 2004, Norgle threw out a consolidated lawsuit against the corporations, saying that no direct connection was established by the plaintiffs to prove harm.

Dr. Conrad Worrill, chairman of the National Black United Front, called Judge Norgle "a liar" regarding the plaintiffs' "failure" to establish a direct connection, and further accused Norgle of being a product of "conservative, right-wing, judicial political decisionmaking."

This recent federal ruling flies in the face of corporations like Wachovia and Bank of America admitting that companies in their lineage did profit from the slave trade. Both companies, which were required in cities like Philadelphia and Chicago to make those disclosures, have made apologies, and have set up token scholarship programs in certain areas.

But there are those who vehemently oppose even the idea of reparations for the long ago cruel institution of slavery.

˜Before Wachovia Bank Chairman and CEO Ken Thompson and his Bank of America counterpart Ken Lewis do too much hand wringing about their companies' past ties to slavery, they should set aside "white guilt" and consider the issue from a historical perspective," Bill Ward, a Salisbury-based writer wrote in his July 7 op-ed for the Charlotte Observer. "If they don't, they'll be fair game for every race-baiting extortionist that comes along."

"Corporate leaders owe themselves and their stockholders a strong defense against intimidation by fast-buck operators seeking deep pockets under the guise of make-believe justice," Ward added.

Reparations for slavery isn't the only kind getting the thumbs down from the legal system.

Last May, the US Supreme Court let stand a lower court ruling that the statute of limitations had run out on any claims by the surviving victims of the 1921 Tulsa, Okla. race riots – where hundreds of blacks were murdered by angry whites. Many blacks there lost their businesses and property as a result. The Oklahoma Legislature, which authorized a commission to research and officially ratify the facts, turned down all requests for reparations, as did the Oklahoma courts.

Here in North Carolina, business lobbyists pressured a Democrat House committee chairman to effectively kill a slavery info/state contract bill that, if passed, would have required most businesses wanting to contract with state government to open their books to determine if they ever profited from the slave trade. Doing so would not inhibit getting the contract, but not opening the books would.

That bill's sponsor, Rep. Larry Womble [D-Winston-Salem], promised to reintroduce it next year. He insisted the goal of his bill was not reparations, but better information about the potential companies the state would be doing business with.

But conservatives like John Carlisle, director of policy at the National Legal and Policy Center (NLPC), a nonpartisan foundation based in Falls Church, Va., saw it differently.

In an article titled "Slave Disclosure Bill Would Worsen Racial Tension," published by the conservative Carolina Journal Online, Carlisle warned, "In addition to stoking racial bitterness, the measure will likely spark a barrage of costly lawsuits and hurt North Carolina's ability to attract business."
Peter Flaherty, president of the NLPC, charged that the ultimate goal of [Womble's] legislation, "is to provide a massive payday for 35 million blacks across the nation."

"It's totally ridiculous to pay them," Flaherty is quoted as telling the Carolina Journal. "We are doing what we can to stop it."

The NAACP doesn't think so.

At its annual national conference in Milwaukee, Wisconsin this week, the nation's oldest and largest civil rights organization announced that it will target major corporations with historical ties to slavery for reparations.

"We will be pursuing reparations from companies that have historical ties to slavery and engaging all parties to come to the table," Dennis C. Hayes, interim president/ CEO told reporters. "Many of the problems we have now including poverty, disparities in health care and incarcerations can be directly tied to slavery."

Hayes said the NAACP will lobby cities to adopt slavery information measures before doing business with new corporations.

© MBM

Original Post

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The trouble, that I have is, Who pays?

First! Khemitian people spent about 65 billions dollars in the economy.

ALL if not most companys, are inter twine with each others. Big companys control small ones et, et.

Millions of Black folks work for these companys and pay taxes,to the goverment.
So when the goverment, and companies start writting checks. Won't the money just come from our selfs?

Let be honest?
Rich black folks don't need the money. So only poor folk really need it.
But what happen if they do get checks?
HAlf will spent all of it in months.
Some will invest it. But that puts it right back in the hands of company's and goverment.
Some will buy products, the money goes back in to the hands of companys & Goverment.
SOme will build schools & companys, the money goes right back into the hands of goverment and companys.
quote:
Judge Norgle went on to say those seeking reparations through the courts "face insurmountable problems..."
in proving that they have been suffered "at the hands of the defendants (corporations).



It is shameful how this entire movement has degraded into a display of the FLAWED ideological basis that the people advancing this movement now have.

In my readings I have learned that the movement was advised that they would have an easier time suing CORPORATIONS than suing the GOVERNMENT. This is because with the GOVERNMENT most people would see resources paid in Reparations as resources taken AWAY from the interests of the general public (schools, Social Security, etc).

In suing CORPORATIONS, however, they can take advantage of the animous that many people have against them in order to obtain a favorable outcome.

For me the ideological hypocracy of the movement can be seen by their SILENCE over the frontal assault by the Democratic Party, an entity that has been in continuous operation since slavery. There is NOT A SINGLE Jim Crow law on the books that does not have it's roots in a Democratic strategy for White Supremacy.

The arguments that the BANK of today is still liable regardless of if it has new management who don't practice these same policies SOME HOW DOES NOT APPLY TO THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY who's new leadership has changed as well.

White the "corporate" continued liability but not the same for the Democratic Party organization?
quote:
Originally posted by Constructive Feedback:

In my readings I have learned that the movement was advised that they would have an easier time suing CORPORATIONS than suing the GOVERNMENT.


So, you're criticizing the reparations movement for being strategic? Confused

quote:
This is because with the GOVERNMENT most people would see resources paid in Reparations as resources taken AWAY from the interests of the general public (schools, Social Security, etc).


The government doesn't work that way. Just becuase there is an Iraq War, doesn't mean that folks won't get their Social Security check!

quote:
In suing CORPORATIONS, however, they can take advantage of the animous that many people have against them in order to obtain a favorable outcome.


Here we are talking about "feelings" again. The black man has too much resentment toward the white man. Roll Eyes People have animus toward corporations. Roll Eyes

BS.

This is about collecting on a long overdue investment and the legal strategy to do that. Period.

quote:
For me the ideological hypocracy of the movement can be seen by their SILENCE over the frontal assault by the Democratic Party, an entity that has been in continuous operation since slavery. There is NOT A SINGLE Jim Crow law on the books that does not have it's roots in a Democratic strategy for White Supremacy.


When a black conservative has nothing else to say what comes out of their mouth? Democrats used to be racists!

How do you rationlize your criticism of 19th century Democrats with your embrace of 21st century racist Republicans?


quote:
The arguments that the BANK of today is still liable regardless of if it has new management who don't practice these same policies SOME HOW DOES NOT APPLY TO THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY who's new leadership has changed as well.


The bank earned profit and acquired assets as a result of its business practices. How is this comparable to the 19th century Democratic party CF?

Beyond that, who cares what the 19th century Democrats did? How is that relevant at all to today?
Roll Eyes

quote:
White the "corporate" continued liability but not the same for the Democratic Party organization?


Reparations has nothing to do with hurt feelings or bad treatment and everything to do with tangible assets - value that was inveseted by slave families and that subsidized the economy and the over-all standard of living for a nation. How is it anything but _fair_ for those families who invested of their labor for hundreds of years in this nation to receive a return on that investment. This is particularly so when America has been enjoying the benefit of that investment since that time. How is it not America's duty to repay that investment - with interest?
While I understand the reparations movement, I'm concerned about the allocation of funds should something like this come to pass.

I don't think checks should be mailed out to everyone because that money would be quickly wasted. If rewarded, that money should be put aside for programs that develop and improve the community. The money should be used for programs like; inner city healthcare, after-school programs, college scholarships, job training, business and economic development initiatives.
quote:
Originally posted by Negrological:

I don't think checks should be mailed out to everyone because that money would be quickly wasted.


Well, it's their money. As I've said in the past, hopefully people would do constructive, positive things with it, but if they wanted to buy Twinkies with their reparations award - so be it.
Not that I agree with reperations for the fact that it keeps us looking for something that we are NOT going to get.

If it was to happen is should have happen by now. THEY will never apolgize or make restiution. They can't. You can PAY for all the generations of Black people that spent their entire lives being slaves.

We didn't get our 40 acres and a mule and we never will. We have had to settle for Affirmative Action and Welfare.

What we SHOULD get isn't a "check from the government. We should get free education up thru College since we were denied that and even killed for trying to learn. AND we shouldn't have to pay taxes since we were denied the right to vote i.e. taxation without representation.
quote:
Originally posted by MBM:
Well, it's their money. As I've said in the past, hopefully people would do constructive, positive things with it, but if they wanted to buy Twinkies with their reparations award - so be it.


it's not 'our' money in the sense that we earned it...the reparations is our ancestors money. i'm of the opinion that we as a people OWE it to our ancestors to ensure that that money be spent positively and constructively.
quote:
Originally posted by Negrological:

it's not 'our' money in the sense that we earned it...the reparations is our ancestors money.


Exactly. In the same way that our nation is set up to pass assets/wealth down through the generations - since we are the ones next in line - the assets (while earned perhaps by our forbears) are ours.

quote:
i'm of the opinion that we as a people OWE it to our ancestors to ensure that that money be spent positively and constructively.


I also agree 100% But we should be clear that this obligation (to do the right thing) is on no way connected to the manner that we are paid back what is due us. Whether in cash or tax breaks or additional government services or whatever - that obligation still exists. Furthermore, arguments that suggest that reparations are inappropriate becuase they would be spent irresponsibly hold no merit in my view.
quote:
Originally posted by James Wesley Chester:
The trouble, that I have is, Who pays?---Shadow

America pays.

The continuing liability; the continuing onus, of chattel slavery lies in the lap of the United States of America.

All the other ratinale of victim fiscal incompetence, and individual culpability is less than thoughtful.


PEACE

Jim Chester


I see your point, but THings are not the same.
Black folks are a part of the paying companies.
WE will be paying our selves. HOw is this reparations?

Where is the puishment for the past.

SEcond point? All if not most companies will simple uses the tax code to get back the out lay. >>Tax deductions. Plus companies will simply, raise prices,cortail pay raises, /black folks included,/ and use other sorted legal business pratice's to recope the lost.
Again, how is this punishment?

Reparations would have been a great idea, back in the early 1900's to the early fifties.
Most of the wealth made during slavery made even more wealth during this period. After the fifties, Black folks had first hand in the making of companies wealth and were payed.
But today, excepte the money part, Reparations dosn't make sense. Morally yes!
quote:
But today, excepte the money part, Reparations dosn't make sense. Morally yes!
What you've had to say here doesn't make sense.

quote:
Some will invest it. But that puts it right back in the hands of company's and goverment.
Some will buy products, the money goes back in to the hands of companys & Goverment.
SOme will build schools & companys, the money goes right back into the hands of goverment and companys.
Sounds like a selling point for White America. lol

Seriously, though... Something is wrong with your framing. Please develop a consistent ideology on this.

quote:
Won't the money just come from our selfs?
Yes! I think that's why White Americans are against it. Certainly it will "just" come from Black people. Roll Eyes

And we can really tell you are a proponent of there being "punishment" for the past:

quote:
Reparations would have been a great idea, back in the early 1900's to the early fifties. Most of the wealth made during slavery made even more wealth during this period. After the fifties, Black folks had first hand in the making of companies wealth and were payed. But today, excepte the money part, Reparations dosn't make sense.
If you put half as much time and effort thinking (outside-of-the-box) in terms of a position FOR REPARATIONS that address the so-called "trouble" you see with Reparations then perhaps you can make sense out of Reparations.

Funny how you limit yourself and your thinking as to conveniently match your pre-determined conclusion about Reparations.
quote:
Originally posted by MidLifeMan:
We didn't get our 40 acres and a mule and we never will. We have had to settle for Affirmative Action and Welfare.


Neither one of those are like reparations. Welfare is part of a social safety net that everyone has access to. AA is to ensure past discrimination does not continue, and again includes others (white women) . Why do you equate either of those with reparations?

quote:
What we SHOULD get isn't a "check from the government. We should get free education up thru College since we were denied that and even killed for trying to learn. AND we shouldn't have to pay taxes since we were denied the right to vote i.e. taxation without representation.


Uhhh, that is similar to what is being proposed; although other aggrieved groups have gotten a check in their hand.
quote:
Originally posted by Isome:
quote:
Originally posted by MidLifeMan:

What we SHOULD get isn't a "check from the government. We should get free education up thru College since we were denied that and even killed for trying to learn. AND we shouldn't have to pay taxes since we were denied the right to vote i.e. taxation without representation.


Uhhh, that is similar to what is being proposed; although other aggrieved groups have gotten a check in their hand.
ISOME, man people wear me out saying stuff from uninformed positions... That aside, I'll be brief with comments on TAXATION.

There's at least a couple of lessons that can be gained from revisiting the idea:
quote:
...The differentiation between actual and virtual representation was really a convenient fiction from the American side. Most colonists realized the total impracticability of sending representatives across the Atlantic... and any American representation would be so badly outnumbered as to make it totally ineffectual.

If taxes were necessary, then the Americans wanted their own assemblies to impose them. Further, the colonists wanted Parliamentary recognition of this perceived right.
Essentially, "No taxation without representation" really meant, "No taxation by Parliament. No representation in Parliament. Let us run our own affairs."


Oh for that "Revolutionary" spirit... and insight.
quote:
Furthermore, arguments that suggest that reparations are inappropriate becuase they would be spent irresponsibly hold no merit in my view.


My point exactly....


I think reperations would bea boon to the economy...

The joke the rperations would make Cadillac the #1 car dealership in the country is pretty valid...

I have no problems w/ how someone might spend their "reperations"..

They could burn it in the streets it's their money..
I for one don't want their blood money
I think they will pat themselves on the back if we got money and did well with it , but not if we work for every penny we get so they cannot take credit for our accoumplishments .
My opinion is Let them shove their blood money where the sun don't shine and just stay the hell out of my way because I will make it without their help and when I do they won't be able to take the credit !!!
To the ones who want to go after reparation , I say why bother ??? we waste a lot of time fighting them let's pick up the pieces and build our nation strong, stronger than before so they can shake in their boots because they cannot stop us !!!
Only then can we be really free !!!
Their money will have strings attach we will get $5.00 if we dance with our hands in our pants and $50.00 if we sit in the corner and shut up !!!
Is this what we are fighting for ??
I want no part of it !!
I say let's put them in their place by rising above what they think we are !! Work together build a strong nation < Not America, but African everywhere !!!
quote:
Originally posted by Shadow:
The trouble, that I have is, Who pays?

First! Khemitian people spent about 65 billions dollars in the economy.

ALL if not most companys, are inter twine with each others. Big companys control small ones et, et.

Millions of Black folks work for these companys and pay taxes,to the goverment.
So when the goverment, and companies start writting checks. Won't the money just come from our selfs?

Let be honest?
Rich black folks don't need the money. So only poor folk really need it.
But what happen if they do get checks?
HAlf will spent all of it in months.
Some will invest it. But that puts it right back in the hands of company's and goverment.
Some will buy products, the money goes back in to the hands of companys & Goverment.
SOme will build schools & companys, the money goes right back into the hands of goverment and companys.
quote:
I for one don't want their blood money
I think they will pat themselves on the back if we got money and did well with it , but not if we work for every penny we get so they cannot take credit for our accoumplishments .
My opinion is Let them shove their blood money where the sun don't shine and just stay the hell out of my way because I will make it without their help and when I do they won't be able to take the credit !!!
To the ones who want to go after reparation , I say why bother ??? we waste a lot of time fighting them let's pick up the pieces and build our nation strong, stronger than before so they can shake in their boots because they cannot stop us !!!
Only then can we be really free !!!
Their money will have strings attach we will get $5.00 if we dance with our hands in our pants and $50.00 if we sit in the corner and shut up !!!
Is this what we are fighting for ??
I want no part of it !!
I say let's put them in their place by rising above what they think we are !! Work together build a strong nation < Not America, but African everywhere !!!



There is great strength in your words. And we as a people in this country US have been making it so far so why we need to stop and ask for some help recently. We need to put that energy back into our will.

I know some white people owe us but they certainly are not gonna pay us for the suffering caused to us in their presence.
@Nmaginate

http://www.black-collegian.com/news/special-reports/resparations2002-1st.shtml

I have never seen a team of well known and trying to be well known lawyers fight for free and if they win they will be overseers of a trust fund to help the poorest of members. Basically they will decide who is a member and who is not. Even if you have evidence of your ancestors suffering they decide.

Is this waht we really want for our communities if these lawyers are overseers. Check out what some Native American groups do to 'black' members who claim to have 'Native American' DNA.

http://www.latimes.com/news/printedition/la-sci-indiand...,0,209616,full.story

Plus this time they have the major media on their side. This is very disturbing.

second

http://www.usaweekend.com/02_issues/020818/020818reparations.html

quote:
Compensation claims, until recently, were marginalized as goals of radicals and fringe groups. However, the effort gained ground after last year's U.N. Conference Against Racism issued a document defining slavery as "a crime against humanity." The case has reached a fever pitch, culminating in this weekend's planned "Millions for Reparations" march in Washington. Since spring, two class-action lawsuits have been filed in the Northeast, and there is one in South Africa focusing on international claims of reparations related to the apartheid regime.


Meaning Professor Charles J. Ogletree, Jr. considered compensation claims for reparations as lost causes until the UN gave their approval. This international organization started him to take this issue seriously enough to come down from his high Harvard chair to eat peanut butter san'miches with the marginalized black Americans he saw living in rotting housing in the distance driving to and from work. Before he was not entirely there. Very suspicious already.

If reparations are through the Ogletree and Cochran types I dont want any part of it. It is doomed to fail and cause unforseen consequences.
I am not saying they don't owe us
HELL YES !!!! they owe us big time but how are you going to collect it without further enslaving yourselves to the white man terrany?
Look at what they did with the native Canadians ? I don't know if you have the same problem in the U.S. as we have here in Canada with the Natives but those bastards turn that nation into a nation of welfare drunks and drug addicts.
No please don't tell me they didn't force them , When you take away a person will to succeed and give hom money instead he is lost and have no direction
A proud race was renegated to living on government reparation payments .
In most cases they cannot find work as much as there are jobs in abundance here people won't hire them or they get only medioca jobs.
Everytime one of them break away and do something all the white trash look at them and talk about the millions they get annually from the government not about their struggle to succeed.
I would like to see something better for our people
I want to hold my head high and spit in the face of some of my ancestors .
Yes my great grandmother was the daughter of a slave master her mother was raped by the son-of-a-bitch who made them work I want his relatives to know me as a fighter not as a coward, living on their scraps,
Brother that is exactly what we will get not anything substantal not dignity just more humiliation, that's how the whites keep their slaves as slaves even after slavery has been abolish!!!
quote:
Originally posted by Dusty Elbow:
quote:
I for one don't want their blood money
I think they will pat themselves on the back if we got money and did well with it , but not if we work for every penny we get so they cannot take credit for our accoumplishments .
My opinion is Let them shove their blood money where the sun don't shine and just stay the hell out of my way because I will make it without their help and when I do they won't be able to take the credit !!!
To the ones who want to go after reparation , I say why bother ??? we waste a lot of time fighting them let's pick up the pieces and build our nation strong, stronger than before so they can shake in their boots because they cannot stop us !!!
Only then can we be really free !!!
Their money will have strings attach we will get $5.00 if we dance with our hands in our pants and $50.00 if we sit in the corner and shut up !!!
Is this what we are fighting for ??
I want no part of it !!
I say let's put them in their place by rising above what they think we are !! Work together build a strong nation < Not America, but African everywhere !!!



There is great strength in your words. And we as a people in this country US have been making it so far so why we need to stop and ask for some help recently. We need to put that energy back into our will.

I know some white people owe us but they certainly are not gonna pay us for the suffering caused to us in their presence.
quote:
I have never seen a team of well known and trying to be well known lawyers fight for free...


You haven't "seen it" Dusty, but you read the article. Did it mention payment to the attorneys? Did you inquire about it? Is it normal for you to presume the worst of Black people, or just Black lawyers, or people in general?

quote:
... and if they win they will be overseers of a trust fund to help the poorest of members. ...


Are you afraid of Black people being your overseers, or are you afraid everyone won't be included? Whatever the case may be, your fears are misplaced and do not justify objections to being paid what is owed.

quote:
Check out what some Native American groups do to 'black' members who claim to have 'Native American' DNA.


Meaning...?

quote:
Plus this time they have the major media on their side. This is very Disturbing.


Is your argument now that press coverage makes them illegitimate or traitors-in-waiting? If it is, isn't it sad that a lack of press coverage makes them ineffective to others. ...can't win for losing on that one. What's worse is that despite the press coverage, there are objections to the very idea of reparations based on assumptions and misinformation.

quote:
Meaning Professor Charles J. Ogletree, Jr. considered compensation claims for reparations as lost causes until the UN gave their approval.


With or without UN "approval" of international reparations claims you consider reparations an unworthy, unappealing cause. What is your point?

quote:
If reparations are through the Ogletree and Cochran types


Would it make it better if it were "through" some storefront lawyer no one ever heard? Are you saying that lawyers are unnecessary to push the case through the labyrinth of laws? Is there something in their (well, Mr. Cochran is dead so that's a moot point) background that we don't know about? Is there a blemish on Charles Ogletree's record that proves his lack of integrity? Think about that for a moment?

quote:
I dont want any part of it.


Though you're wrong about the form they would take, who would force you to accept any benefits? No one. My question is, would you actively campaign or vote against it and those of your ethnicity if such a scenario presented itself?

quote:
It is doomed to fail and cause unforseen consequences.


It has failed before when we were just out of shackles and then again when we were disenfranchised. We're neither of those things now, but we still can't get the average Black man to be curious about what is really going on.

There's already wealth, education, imprisonment and healthcare gaps. What more do you think could go wrong "as a consequence"?
Dusty, you didn't answer my question. Charles Ogletree isn't the sum total of the Reparations Movement. Your issue whereby you cast aspersions at his motives (and others) is your issue to deal with. But I asked you simple question(s).

quote:
  • What makes you claim the call for Reparations is a "recent" one?
  • And one based on some idea of "asking for help"???
  • Hmmmm.... You at least tried to get around to saying something about the first part, barely, but didn't say a damn thing about the latter. So what was the purpose of your posts?

    quote:
    If reparations are through the Ogletree and Cochran types I dont want any part.
    Okay... But I don't want to hear that stuff. Those are your issues. I care not for your issues.
    Nor do I care if you want any part of something Ogletree et al are involved in. My thinking (or anyone else's) began to revolve around yours... WHEN?? I asked you to take part in Reparations... WHEN?? Reparations becomes legitimate by you signal you will take part in it... WHEN?

    How come none of that addresses my question(s)?

    Johnny Cochran is deceased. ... "Ogletree types"??? They are _________________ ? Those "types" are __________ ?
    Please... Come up with a logical position. One without all the fallacy. And, I guess if Native Americans do it, we're going to do it too, huh? Roll Eyes

    You must have some stuff twisted in your head. It's the Anti-Reparationists, White ones in particular, who rather openly are trying to decide "Who Is Black?" and calling for "blood" and DNA tests.

    quote:
    Plus this time they have the major media on their side.
    THIS TIME?? THIS TIME?? Thank you for disproving your own BS. Is Reparations "recent" or not? Thank you, I have your vote for NOT... which renders your claim about it being something that just "recently" appeared as all for naught.

    Please leave the rhetoric at home...

    You can also deal with your issues as they relate to you equating Reparations not only to "asking for help" (which you have not spoken to... figures) but as some sign or statement that "We As A People" are not making it or whatever bunch of irrelevant concepts you want to throw out there. And it's funny how you talk about "We As A People" while at the same time trippin' over a possible team of people who may help in administrating a trust fund to help "the poorest of members".

    I guess "the poorest members" are those who prove your notion that "We As A People" have been "making" it.
    quote:
    We as a people in this country US have been making it so far so why we need to stop and ask for some help recently.
    Again, what's up with this association of Reparations with "asking for help"?? And what does our "making it", so far or even more so now (if that's what you think or could say)...
    WHAT DOES ANY OF THAT HAVE TO DO WITH REPARATIONS?

    I don't recall ever discussing this with you but (in this :: EDIT :: ) I understand what ISOME said (below) about you being against Reparations, anyway. IRRELEVANT concepts like the "making it so far" idea and trying to LIE TO YOURSELF (and us) about the call for Reparations being "recent" just show how you're trying desperately to justify your pre-conceived position instead of having sound reasons for having the position you do.

    Please come back when you have eliminated your issues -- aka NON-ISSUES.
    Last edited {1}
    quote:
    Originally posted by Annie:
    how are you going to collect it without further enslaving yourselves to the white man terrany?

    You collect the same way all other groups collected. They were no more subjected to the white man's tyranny for taking what was rightfully theirs.

    quote:
    Look at what they did with the native Canadians?


    There are social ills in the Native community related to the white man's inhumanity. We have social ills related to the white man's inhumanity. From the reading I've done about Natives and you said so yourself, it is the same white folk who discriminate against them. That doesn't make them lazy. And, self-medicating (alcoholism) isn't an automatic consequence of reparations. There are specific variables at play in the Native community and one of the most important being that they are isolated on reservations. We are not.

    quote:
    I want to hold my head high and spit in the face of some of my ancestors.


    Your head should always be held high. There is no reason to lower it because others refuse to allow the continued unjust enrichment of white men from the blood and sweat of our forebearers.

    Uhhh, I don't think you quite meant that last part the way it was written.

    quote:
    Brother that is exactly what we will get not anything substantal not dignity just more humiliation, that's how the whites keep their slaves as slaves even after slavery has been abolish!!!


    Dignity is something that white folks cannot give you. You either have it, or you don't. Before the physical and social bonds of slavery were removed, there were those of us who were dignified in the face of dehumanizing indignities. If they can know their spirit at a time like that, you and I do them a disservice by not recognizing that our diginity comes from within.
    Last edited {1}
    quote:
    ...just more humiliation...
    I think we have a Winner!!!!

    Of all the layers of the onion, at the core are inane sentiments circumscribed around... "humiliation"???

    Now that is a question of DIGNITY.
    quote:
    There were those of us who were dignified in the face of dehumanizing indignities.
    Hmmm... And I'm thinking to those great people "humiliation" wasn't a thang. They were, in the Black Church venacular, DIGNIFIED Any-HA (Anyhow), sure of their humanity and what it meant, despite... hell in spite of what White folk thought or how White folks tried to psychologically assault their humanity.

    So what seems to be the problem? Explain the importance of this "humiliation" concept. Why is it a concern or even a point?
    @Isome

    quote:
    You haven't "seen it" Dusty, but you read the article. Did it mention payment to the attorneys? Did you inquire about it? Is it normal for you to presume the worst of Black people, or just Black lawyers, or people in general?


    Does it have to? If you worked all your life to be a lawyer for free to the public than I know plenty of people who need your service. For all the work you put into something you definitely want to be the first to harvest.


    quote:
    Are you afraid of Black people being your overseers, or are you afraid everyone won't be included? Whatever the case may be, your fears are misplaced and do not justify objections to being paid what is owed.


    Not afraid. Too the contrary I wish Black people to be overseers but they would still be accountable to the ones [US coporations and government] who give US the money and they were no good from the start and no good now. Meaning white people will still be in this REPARATION MOVEMENT business. Where the independence in that? Still waiting on someone to dole out a check for me when they gave the impression they dont like me from the start. Psychological problems with white people all over again.


    quote:
    Check out what some Native American groups do to 'black' members who claim to have 'Native American' DNA.


    quote:
    Meaning...?


    You can have physical evidence of your ancestry and still be denied in the club these lawyers will form. They will be the decision makers.

    quote:
    Plus this time they have the major media on their side. This is very Disturbing.


    quote:
    Is your argument now that press coverage makes them illegitimate or traitors-in-waiting? If it is, isn't it sad that a lack of press coverage makes them ineffective to others. ...can't win for losing on that one. What's worse is that despite the press coverage, there are objections to the very idea of reparations based on assumptions and misinformation.


    The media record on the black community and its issue is atrocious and to suddenly have this reparation movement on major media publications is very suspect in my opinion and these lawyers dont see the danger they may be causing. They werent their for civil rights reconstruction emacipation etc. 'We' had to be our community informants. Not major media.



    quote:
    With or without UN "approval" of international reparations claims you consider reparations an unworthy, unappealing cause. What is your point? [?QUOTE]

    My point is that reparations mean different things to different people. Just one type of people have stepped up suspiciously.

    [QUOTE]
    Would it make it better if it were "through" some storefront lawyer no one ever heard? Are you saying that lawyers are unnecessary to push the case through the labyrinth of laws? Is there something in their (well, Mr. Cochran is dead so that's a moot point) background that we don't know about? Is there a blemish on Charles Ogletree's record that proves his lack of integrity? Think about that for a moment?


    Harvard has not been kind in intiating movement in the black community especially in their own area in Boston. This time they have black people on their faculty and not a word from them to volunteer their expertise to helping the black community since they 'know' how much we suffer through their picture books on 'black' sociology.

    quote:
    I dont want any part of it.

    Though you're wrong about the form they would take, who would force you to accept any benefits? No one. My question is, would you actively campaign or vote against it and those of your ethnicity if such a scenario presented itself?


    No I am not in the way of the 'needs' of my community. If this is just than go for it. Many of the black ancestors I personally look to as great that accomplished something for US (black) doesnt have to be material either and this country (meaning white, chinese, Native American, etc) who left their written outlook on life after being let out of 'chattel' slavery
    never written about being paid back for false promises. I am sure they knew white people owed them and werent going to pay them so they did not sit around waiting for the government and corporations to fess up to wrong doing and put a pot of money on their lap. They achieve what they did (even the wrong was done to them at an earlier point in life) for I believe something greater was in store for us beyond this exercise in the REPARATION MOVEMENT. If you have weights on you that you know will be met unfullfilled, then your still chained up unable to accomplish much more in life to those you care for.

    quote:
    It has failed before when we were just out of shackles and then again when we were disenfranchised. We're neither of those things now, but we still can't get the average Black man to be curious about what is really going on.

    There's already wealth, education, imprisonment and healthcare gaps. What more do you think could go wrong "as a consequence"?


    Civil rights is in trouble. Those gains are eroding fast in top offices of our government. So are constitutional accountability. It may be on the books or paper but the interpretation is self preservation of the establishment. If the establishment still exist after 'our' win for REPARATIONS they still will be making self interest decision not tearful compassionate ones on our behalf.
    Last edited {1}
    @Nmaginate and Isome

    quote:
    Originally posted by Nmaginate:
    Dusty, you didn't answer my question. Charles Ogletree isn't the sum total of the Reparations Movement. Your issue whereby you cast aspersions at his motives (and others) is your issue to deal with. But I asked you simple question(s).


    Reparations Movement in this context is a college campus fight shifted to the courthouse. I have not seen my neighbors or our communities in my vicinity petition their local government to get the state and federal government to champion their causes. Even elected black officials do not talk about reparations when they garnish votes from the American public especially from us. I have only seen the talk of reparation held by small sometimes vocal people in our communities. They hand out flyers for meetings and rallying. Very few people from our community show up. They receive no major media attention.

    Currently a group of lawyers from big league schools with members of academia showing up getting the media attention is very suspect.

    quote:

    UN view and no clear consensus yet on the issue of reparations Even with ourselves it seems.

    http://www.un.org/ecosocdev/geninfo/afrec/vol15no3/153racis.htm


    quote:
    Prez Bush and Congress views
    Support from the White House and Congress still remains weak: President Bush is said to oppose paying slave compensation, and U.S. Rep. John Conyers' proposal to set up a commission to study the impact of slavery has languished for over a decade.

    http://www.npr.org/programs/specials/racism/010827.reparations.html



    I think these people who represent US for reparations really know something about the future of black people in this country and are willing to risk their reputation to get this win for the future. Basically take the money and run from some kind of bad omen ahead. That is my opinion.

    In this context of the initial poster MBM the REPAPRATION MOVEMENT, defined by our media and the major faces involved is what I am refering too.
    -------MY OPINION to Nmaginate and Isome------


    quote:
    Hmmmm.... You at least tried to get around to saying something about the first part, barely, but didn't say a damn thing about the latter. So what was the purpose of your posts?

    quote:
    If reparations are through the Ogletree and Cochran types I dont want any part.
    Okay... But I don't want to hear that stuff. Those are your issues. I care not for your issues.
    Nor do I care if you want any part of something Ogletree et al are involved in. My thinking (or anyone else's) began to revolve around yours... WHEN?? I asked you to take part in Reparations... WHEN?? Reparations becomes legitimate by you signal you will take part in it... WHEN?

    How come none of that addresses my question(s)?

    Johnny Cochran is deceased. ... "Ogletree types"??? They are _________________ ? Those "types" are __________ ?
    Please... Come up with a logical position. One without all the fallacy. And, I guess if Native Americans do it, we're going to do it too, huh? Roll Eyes

    You must have some stuff twisted in your head. It's the Anti-Reparationists, White ones in particular, who rather openly are trying to decide "Who Is Black?" and calling for "blood" and DNA tests.

    quote:
    Plus this time they have the major media on their side.
    THIS TIME?? THIS TIME?? Thank you for disproving your own BS. Is Reparations "recent" or not? Thank you, I have your vote for NOT... which renders your claim about it being something that just "recently" appeared as all for naught.

    Please leave the rhetoric at home...

    You can also deal with your issues as they relate to you equating Reparations not only to "asking for help" (which you have not spoken to... figures) but as some sign or statement that "We As A People" are not making it or whatever bunch of irrelevant concepts you want to throw out there. And it's funny how you talk about "We As A People" while at the same time trippin' over a possible team of people who may help in administrating a trust fund to help "the poorest of members".

    I guess "the poorest members" are those who prove your notion that "We As A People" have been "making" it.


    When is politics logical? If you can get logic out of it, so be it. Things that we as mankind do many times is irrational to the matter in question.

    quote:

    quote:
    We as a people in this country US have been making it so far so why we need to stop and ask for some help recently.
    Again, what's up with this association of Reparations with "asking for help"?? And what does our "making it", so far or even more so now (if that's what you think or could say)...
    WHAT DOES ANY OF THAT HAVE TO DO WITH REPARATIONS?

    I don't recall ever discussing this with you but (in this :: EDIT :: ) I understand what ISOME said (below) about you being against Reparations, anyway. IRRELEVANT concepts like the "making it so far" idea and trying to LIE TO YOURSELF (and us) about the call for Reparations being "recent" just show how you're trying desperately to justify your pre-conceived position instead of having sound reasons for having the position you do.

    Please come back when you have eliminated your issues -- aka NON-ISSUES.


    Check my response with Isome.

    I must be playing the trumpet wrong for the sound I am making isnt making anyone dance.

    Oh well so be it too.
    Last edited {1}
    quote:
    Originally posted by Dusty Elbow:
    Does it have to?

    Yes. Otherwise, your assumption should be based on something concrete, not just your bias against lawyers in general.

    quote:
    Not afraid. Too the contrary I wish Black people to be overseers but they would still be accountable to the ones [US coporations and government] who give US the money and they were no good from the start and no good now. Meaning white people will still be in this REPARATION MOVEMENT business.


    Again, you are basing it on your assumptions of the movement and the form of the payments.

    quote:
    You can have physical evidence of your ancestry and still be denied in the club these lawyers will form. They will be the decision makers.


    Look at how many erroneous conclusions you've come to based on assumptions or misinformation. This is tragic that your gut reaction isn't to find out more, but to resolutely make up your mind on the basis of scant information.

    quote:
    The media record on the black community and its issue is atrocious and to suddenly have this reparation movement on major media publications is very suspect in my opinion and these lawyers dont see the danger they may be causing.


    First, what major media outlets are harping on reparations? Second, do you not see that people like David Horowitz helped put the issue on the public's radar screen? And, finally, what danger do you foresee from the media's coverage, besides their obvious bias?

    quote:
    They werent their for civil rights reconstruction emacipation etc. 'We' had to be our community informants. Not major media.-


    Sadly, there were a great number of us who didn't want to rock the boat and had a cornucopia of excuses as to why civil rights agitation wasn't a good idea. And, if you've ever listened to the narratives of former slaves, you would hear that some of them, bless their hearts and damn the shitty frame of reference they had, praised their former owners and had unkind words for the 'coloreds' that came after them.

    My point is that we weren't as unified in the past as you make it sound. It would be nice if just this once we could be supported, even if not encouraged, by our brethren for taking a stand for what's right.

    quote:
    My point is that reparations mean different things to different people. Just one type of people have stepped up suspiciously.


    What do reparations mean to you and what type of person has has stepped up? Are we back to lawyers? I'm not an attorney.


    quote:
    Harvard has not been kind in intiating movement in the black community especially in their own area in Boston.


    Then perhaps Charles Ogletree's involvement (beginning about 5 years ago) has also piqued the interest of the media.

    quote:
    If this is just than go for it.


    That's good to hear.

    quote:
    ...they did not sit around waiting for the government and corporations to fess up to wrong doing and put a pot of money on their lap. ...If you have weights on you that you know will be met unfullfilled, then your still chained up unable to accomplish much more in life to those you care for.


    Whoooops! From not standing in the way you zoomed right over to derision of your own ethnicity... not for doing anything illegal or advocating anything unethical, but for pursuing justice that is being denied to all of us and was denied our forebearers!

    Who is sitting around waiting? It is so insulting to all of us (including the experienced legal scholars and organizations) to suggest that we do nothing else in life except wait. If you cannot see that, it is beyond my ability to clear up a brother's faulty vision. Good luck with that!

    quote:
    Civil rights is in trouble. Those gains are eroding fast in top offices of our government. So are constitutional accountability. It may be on the books or paper but the interpretation is self preservation of the establishment. If the establishment still exist after 'our' win for REPARATIONS they still will be making self interest decision not tearful compassionate ones on our behalf.


    That isn't totally clear to me, but I will say this: the movement has been ongoing without us ever neglecting to fight for our civil rights/liberties. The main person in WA, John Conyers, has been on the forefront of both issues, without fail. So your objections are still impotent and inappropriate.
    quote:
    Originally posted by Dusty Elbow:
    Reparations Movement in this context is a college campus fight shifted to the courthouse. ...I have only seen the talk of reparation held by small sometimes vocal people in our communities. ...They receive no major media attention.


    I'll let you finish editing or whatever, but you just responded to me by saying that MAJOR media attention is a warning flag for you. Which is it?
    Question to you both Isome and Nmaginate

    Would you accept an official apology written and bradcasted to the world from our goverment and businesses involve as a form of reparation? Would this be enough?

    If not then it will involve somebody orchestrating this whole 'form of payment'. Who will decide? 1)US (black people through a national vote and referendum), 2) the government and corporations who will utimately agree or not agree with it, and 3) the forefront fighters, lawyers and academia and if you want yourselves included.

    In the end there is still work to be done. Like spending the money (building black businesses actually restructing the black community on all levels) and keeping the land, making sure guidelines are followed etc. Who will decide this. For me it doesnt take much thought on who because they already decide already. So it wont be lawyers then its gonna be our government. And again they are weak in supporting the REPARATIONS MOVEMENT.

    You can use my responses as you please.

    As I mentioned before

    quote:
    I know some white people owe us but they certainly are not gonna pay us for the suffering caused to us in their presence.
    quote:
    Originally posted by Dusty Elbow:
    Question to you both Isome and Nmaginate

    Would you accept an official apology written and bradcasted to the world from our goverment and businesses involve as a form of reparation? Would this be enough?


    Where were you? A sitting president has already apologize, and no, it is not enough.

    quote:
    If not then it will involve somebody orchestrating this whole 'form of payment'.


    It will and it does.

    quote:
    Who will decide? ... 3) the forefront fighters, lawyers and academia and if you want yourselves included.


    I don't know what "academia" has to do with it, but without question we the people who give a damn will have our say.

    I've answered your questions. In the spirit of reciprocity, mine should be answered as well.
    In all the arguments you've made DE, it seems as though you either didn't read the entire USA article, or you weren't able to glean any useful information from it:
      ... the reparations effort is not solely focused on money. Underlying this movement is a unifying principle we can't continue to ignore: This is about making America better, by helping the truly disadvantaged. For more than a year, we have traveled the world to make the case for reparations, holding presentations in Chicago, Memphis, Detroit and Africa. We have spoken at large conferences as well as small black churches. People are excited and relieved that someone is finally focusing on the fact that in many respects blacks are bottom-stuck to this day.
    quote:
    Originally posted by Isome:
    quote:
    Originally posted by Dusty Elbow:
    Question to you both Isome and Nmaginate

    Would you accept an official apology written and bradcasted to the world from our goverment and businesses involve as a form of reparation? Would this be enough?


    Where were you? A sitting president has already apologize, and no, it is not enough.

    quote:
    If not then it will involve somebody orchestrating this whole 'form of payment'.


    It will and it does.

    quote:
    Who will decide? ... 3) the forefront fighters, lawyers and academia and if you want yourselves included.


    I don't know what "academia" has to do with it, but without question we the people who give a damn will have our say.

    I've answered your questions. In the spirit of reciprocity, mine should be answered as well.

    Note I said government including Congress, Supreme Court, State and local government and BUSINESSES (Corporations) attached to it.

    That hasnt happened yet. Will this be enough?

    Who apologized? Even critics havent heard it happen.

    http://www.alternet.org/columnists/story/16353/


    Academia as in University & colleges (not HBCU) and those who went through that system.
    quote:
    Originally posted by Dusty Elbow:
    Note I said government including Congress, Supreme Court, State and local government and BUSINESSES (Corporations) attached to it.

    That hasnt happened yet. Will this be enough?


    It's too bad you didn't hear it, but it doesn't matter. Clearly the answer is no.

    quote:
    University & colleges (not HBCU) and those who went through that system.


    What does that mean? College graduates?
    quote:
    Originally posted by Isome:
    In all the arguments you've made DE, it seems as though you either didn't read the entire USA article, or you weren't able to glean any useful information from it:
      ... the reparations effort is not solely focused on money. Underlying this movement is a unifying principle we can't continue to ignore: This is about making America better, by helping the truly disadvantaged. For more than a year, we have traveled the world to make the case for reparations, holding presentations in Chicago, Memphis, Detroit and Africa. We have spoken at large conferences as well as small black churches. People are excited and relieved that someone is finally focusing on the fact that in many respects blacks are bottom-stuck to this day.


    Politicians do this all the time. Go places to garnish support. Ultimately you create great expenses in the process. So you expect somebody to pay besides yourself. Money is in there.

    Again the political wait game Ogletree plays is depressing.

    People are excited and relieved that someone is finally focusing on the fact that in many respects blacks are bottom-stuck to this day.

    Who is that someone? Its definitely not 'US' (black people).
    quote:
    Originally posted by Dusty Elbow:

    Who is that someone? Its definitely not 'US' (black people).



    First off, Charles Ogletree (the author of the article you linked to) is not a politician. Plus, how else will anyone know what we want if we don't go and talk to them to find out?!

    Second... What are you talking about? Of course it is US. It is me! It is Nmaginate. It is the countless others like he and I. It may not be YOU. But it certainly is US.

    For your edification: "reparations advocates have proposed a variety of compensation plans, from ...a land redistribution to a wide-ranging Marshall Plan that would pour money into social programs and economic development. Others have recommended tax breaks and free college tuition, similar to benefits available under treaties the U.S. government maintains with Native Americans."
    And since we are coming to a consensus on what REPARATIONS represent this is what is needed in our community. It will makes us better in the process.

    My time here is up. I just wanted to say there was great strength in somebody Annie's words and my intial intentions was not go page to page arguing opinions because that is what politics is opinion no truth.
    quote:
    When is politics logical? If you can get logic out of it, so be it.
    What's with all the excuses and evasions? Why can't you substantiate your position?

    Now, I didn't make or provoke you to take your position. If you can explain your position then it seems that you would do best to either re-examine your position or remain silent about it. Either that or accept the fact that your position will be called out for the BS that it is.

    You claimed that Reparations was "recent"... That was something you said that was unprovoked as far as I'm concerned. Yet you've never been able to actually establish that as a fact. All this stuff about "what you've seen", this, that and the other is IRRELEVANT. The world does not revolve around what you've seen or experienced. The world doesn't revolve around your sentiments, quirks, fears and hysteria either.

    Don't fix your mouth to say anything to me until you straighten out that BS that I asked you about. And do it directly. Honestly. Otherwise, there is nothing to talk about. I don't give a damn about what you think about Reparations (otherwise). So save that talk for someone who does.

    In other words, stop wasting my time... and yours. If you can't defend your position... Well, we've already talked about what you need to do with your position.

    I asked you this:
  • What makes you claim the call for Reparations is a "recent" one?
  • And one based on some idea of "asking for help"???

    Anything you have to say outside of directly answering those questions (NO EXCUSES ALLOWED - "politics logical?") you can save. And I've yet to SEE you answer either one of those questions in earnest. And you must be terrified of the second one or something...
  • quote:
    Originally posted by Dusty Elbow:
    My time here is up. I just wanted to say there was great strength in somebody Annie's words and my intial intentions was not go page to page arguing opinions because that is what politics is opinion no truth.


    You didn't argue opinion, you argued your false suppostions. Good luck with that.

    I personally find no strength in opposing something based on what white folks will think of us.
    quote:
    I think these people who represent US for reparations really know something about the future of black people in this country and are willing to risk their reputation to get this win for the future. Basically take the money and run from some kind of bad omen ahead. That is my opinion.
    I did not ask you about your opinion about "these people." I asked you to explain your statement.

    I asked you this:
  • What makes you claim the call for Reparations is a "recent" one?
  • And one based on some idea of "asking for help"???

    WHY ARE YOU STILL TALKING ABOUT ANY AND EVERYTHING OTHER THAN THAT?
  • quote:
    I did not ask you about your opinion about "these people." I asked you to explain your statement.

    I asked you this:
    # What makes you claim the call for Reparations is a "recent" one?
    # And one based on some idea of "asking for help"???


    WHY ARE YOU STILL TALKING ABOUT ANY AND EVERYTHING OTHER THAN THAT?



    Reparations Movement is recent with regard to the mainstream media, academia, and a sponsoring world body UN taking note of our condition in exchange for acknowlegement (profit sharing in credit), accountability and political discourse from those who continue to this day put obstacles in our path to determination. That is the recent I am referring to.

    "Asking for help" means we want somebody [government and businesses] who already waste much time and effort on consensus taking statistics etc, who sees our condition everyday, every year, for centuries not reaching out to geniunely handle the task of making us a better citizen. Instead of being obligated to fulfill their duties as a legal entity making decisions for us without asking, we now have to get together (which hasnt taken place yet state and national on all levels just these small forerunners asking based on their own consensus) to ask for them to help us through so called politically inspired lack of economic security in challenging the government and businesses on reparations.

    They are the same entity [businesses and government] who aided and continue in creating the conditions we are in the same place. So why do we have to ask for their help when their mode of operation has been to the contrary. We did ask before and it did not work. Emancipation Reconstruction etc., even have Northern states help out. All went unfullfilled. We had to be our own forerunners. Check out black farmers. They were granted by the Supreme Court monies on restitution from discrimination against them. However the payout has not been made, it will eventually as long as the government is still around, and they are still trying to figure out who will be getting this and that. The government will decide when it will pay. But in the meantime discrimination still takes place from the Department of Agriculture against black farmers to this day.

    We are again in waiting mode which for me is quite depressing.

    Instead in the meantime we have to develop other ways of obtaining our independence as a people. We have them in our history and should be doing at this moment what we can we what we have. Because that may be enough.

    That should following the opinions I submitted. I apoligize for ignoring you questions. Take care.

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