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Ebony I believe Sunnubian answered my point and everything else I was trying to get across beautifully. Thank you Sunnubian as I have said to you in the past you strike me as a very wise person.

You see Ebony as I was trying to say to MBM I HAVE NO COMMENT on how you interpret Reparation and your expectations from it. To that end as Sunnubian has said in America it is the norm to take money for crimes committed. Let me repeat it again if you think this is the right way based on American way of doing things then fine, but what I want you to look at is how other people would interpret those actions. As you can see I see it as morally repugnant.

You see I want Reparations for slavery but I don't want money. My way of reparations is I want to see the descendants of the slaves go back and rule the bastards that sold them forever. You know something similar to the story of Joseph and his brothers in the Bible. This way this evil would NEVER EVER be repeated on African soil again. Also the returns from such a move would be far more lasting and telling than any amount of money can compensate for.

One thing that disturbs me about taking money for slavery is as I have pointed out in my earlier posts is that others would benefit from it far more than the people it is meant for. Apart from the descendants of the perpetrators there is also the fact that big business would find ways of taking the money from our hands. Do you notice where black people spend money they earn? They quickly give it back to the white establishment. This is bound to happen if we think only about money. We need to be a bit more clever.
ER,

What part of Texas are you in? I may have been gone for a while but the last I remember a Prop 209 type initiative was defeated there(unlike anywhere else in the country) and black colleges are growing stronger...unlike out here where a negro will tell you an education at a black college is not worth anything and affirmative action is not beneficial at all........i somewhat understand where you are coming from due to the fact that it is much easier to provide for oneself back there than it is here....but both cities(Houston and LA) seem to have the majority caught up on material bullschit and not really the issues...here way more than there......the social scene is the thing here......but there has always been a progressive black core to activate the masses...in Houston anyway...all the way back to Barbara Jordan's and Mickey Leland's days. Maybe the prosperity that some enjoyed in the 90's made them aloof.....I don't know, maybe things have changed in that respect since I left in 1984....but if you are referring to the overall masses being unconcerned you are right...i have some friends who work for the BEAT (92.3FM)here and they have been out canvassing the city trying to register people and all.....and many did not know when the election was....nor do they understand the critical nature of the high court appointments...I am still fuming about Prop 209. When a negro asks me am I going to vote for bush....it just tells me how little they know about black issues in the context of that "war on terror" nonsense bush is milking....hell, white people are always going to protect their banks and economic interests....so black people need to worry about our own issues within that framework.....just a thought......
One thing that disturbs me about taking money for slavery is as I have pointed out in my earlier posts is that others would benefit from it far more than the people it is meant for. Apart from the descendants of the perpetrators there is also the fact that big business would find ways of taking the money from our hands. Do you notice where black people spend money they earn? They quickly give it back to the white establishment. This is bound to happen if we think only about money. We need to be a bit more clever.---henry38

You should know your perspective on this issue really improves the landscape of the issue. All sides are benefiting here.

Your concern for the 'ultimate fate' of reparations is a very, very valid concern. We have discussed it on the board before, as MBM as said.

Somewhere in the structuring of the 'return formula' has to be a 'caretaker' function. People expert in the management of money on that scale have to be put in place with proper safeguards on their stewardship. We know money corrupts just like power.

But that reality cannot be a reason for not doing it!!!

I often talk about the 'final bondage' of chattel slavery. International debt may be the final bondage of nations in Africa; in the Caribbean; in Central America and South America. These are constructions of corporate greed; corporate bondage; the continuing bloodsucking of both slavery and imperialism.

We simply have to learn.


PEACE

Jim Chester
Kevin41 ...

I live right to the southwest of Houston, in Fort Bend County. Although it's reported to be the fastest growing country in the state, it's still a place where most people aren't bothered by the things of the Big City ... and we just don't cause "a bunch of mess" like those folks in Houston/Harris County! Big Grin

Yes, things have changed here since you left ... but probably about only as much as things have changed there in L.A., maybe.

What you're referring to are actually two different things that happened around the same time. Right after I moved here, in 1996, while Ward Connerly was sharpening up his fangs to come here and cause his trouble, the U.S. Supreme Court let stand an Appeals Court ruling to abandon Affirmative Action in state-run colleges in Texas, Louisiana and Mississippi. As a result of that, Connerly gave up his fight never did come this way and spread any of his venom. Maybe it scared him a little bit that either right before or right after that same time, Houton's mayor, a White Democratic, mustered up enough support to have Affirmative Action remain in effect for city and county projects. It was a good election and a great victory ... considering he was leaving on term limits, and Houston elected its first Black mayor, Lee Brown, on that same day!! He turned out to be the most ineffective thing that could have happened to Houston.

In California, the mindset is focused on "doing your own thing" and that progressive Black core you speak of has never been paid any attention to. Even in the time of the Black Panthers ... there was probably more influence in other places around than country than in actually in L.A. They were doing their thing, and everybody else was doing theirs ... mostly wondering about the car they were driving, if they had seen the latest movies, who was at the club and what they did, the concert that was coming to town ... or the ever popular, what was happening with the stars and Hollywood! If social issues were your thing, fine. I think there is probably a bigger such "core" here in Texas.

The materialistic factor is an interesting one, because I think there, it's more about having the latest, the best, starting the trends ... etc. Whereas here, these people are busy trying to be what L.A. is ... or better, what their version of what L.A. is. And it just doesn't really work!! However, they are still determined to work for the social equality that people in California have always enjoyed from the beginning and that's what, I think, keeps the fire burning here.

The Black organizations, radio shows, and others are pushing the get out and vote card hard down here. I complained here on the board a while ago that everything was focused on registering these people to vote, but not educating them on how and why ... not anymore! They've come out swinging ... targeting the colleges and voting-age youngsters, they've got carpools and rally's ... voter information BBQ's ... it's really a sight to see! Smile

However .. you mention the reparations issue around here ... and very few people will know anything about what you're talking about. Roll Eyes
quote:
Originally posted by henry38:
You see I want Reparations for slavery but I don't want money. My way of reparations is I want to see the descendants of the slaves go back and rule the bastards that sold them forever. You know something similar to the story of Joseph and his brothers in the Bible. This way this evil would NEVER EVER be repeated on African soil again. Also the returns from such a move would be far more lasting and telling than any amount of money can compensate for.


Sounds to me like what you want is not Reparations ... but good ol' fashion REVENGE!!! Eek LOL

But, I do totally understand your point now that you have explained it. And especially your point about how bad we are apt to spend it. So, for me, although I agree we shouldn't only think about money, I definitely think we should also think about money in terms of compensation!! Hitting a White person in the pocketbook is worse than hitting in him the gut ... it's one of those lessons he does not easily forget!

When you say "rule over them" do you mean financially or socially ... or do you mean, like, by outnumbering them, such as in South Africa .. becoming the dominate race?
quote:
Originally posted by henry38:

You see Ebony as I was trying to say to MBM I HAVE NO COMMENT on how you interpret Reparation and your expectations from it.


Quite the contrary. Your comment is that it is "blood money".


quote:
You see I want Reparations for slavery but I don't want money.


You may want some form of justice or an apology or a pat on the head, but you do not want reparations.

quote:
My way of reparations is I want to see the descendants of the slaves go back and rule the bastards that sold them forever.


Please do not be confused about who created and propogated the institution of slavery. It was not Africans. They were complicit, but they much more so "duped" than active participants. Beyond that, what do your comments have to do with MBM is talking about?

quote:

One thing that disturbs me about taking money for slavery is as I have pointed out in my earlier posts is that others would benefit from it far more than the people it is meant for.


So, using that logic, we shouldn't give black people pay checks, because in reality the money ends up helping 'the man' more than the people who earn it. Are you serious? Confused Roll Eyes

quote:
Do you notice where black people spend money they earn? They quickly give it back to the white establishment.


What's the problem here brother? What is the real issue that's bothering you? You're now spouting some rather ridiculous, self-hating stuff. Again, are you serious? Eek

For the record, I encourage a vigorous debate about reparations. I enjoy it. I wish I had more time to participate here. Maybe we should be spending our time on activities that have a greater potential for success? Maybe we need to forget about appealing to the white man and "do for self"? Maybe we should be offended by the idea of receiving payment for slavery? These are legitiamte positions that black folks need to debate. I just hope that we can be honest about our feelings and motivations and cut the BULLSHIT. Perhaps I'm too blunt, but I've spent 10 minutes on this topic here and it's clear that this guy has another agenda that is not consistent with honest dialog.
quote:
Originally posted by LibDem:

Maybe we _should_ be spending our time on activities that have a greater potential for success? Maybe we need to forget about appealing to the white man and "do for self"? Maybe we should be offended by the idea of receiving payment for slavery? These are legitiamte positions that black folks need to debate. I just hope that we can be honest about our feelings and motivations and cut the BULLSHIT.


Agree!
quote:
Originally posted by henry38:

Ask yourself if I kidnapped your daughter raped and killed her would you see it as Okay if I offered to pay you some money for what I did?


Of course not. I would expect the Criminal Court System to put you away in prison for the rest of your life.

And in addition I would sue you for every penny you have in the Civil Court System, in the hope that your entire fortune will go to support my grandchildren, that is, my daughter's children, and not you.

Think of Reperations as taking advantage of the Civil Court System.

The perpetrators of past injustices are dead, and beyond the reach of the Criminal Courts. The Criminal Courts can only deal with the perpetrators of present injustices.

Civil Courts, however, are equiped to deal with past injustices, in addition to present injustices, because the penalties deal with tangible things such as money and wealth, which survives long after the perpetrators escape the reach of Criminal Courts through death.
This seems to be a very complex issue...I see both sides but I have to say...

I don't see reparations happening.

I once had a conversation with a white person who admitted that he hated Black people, because "A Black man stole a job from my dad and I went starving for 2 years". Yeah, it's true. Anyway, his argument was that we've ALREADY been given our reparations. He said white people did us a favor by bringing our ancestors over here, making us civilized, and tearing us away from "the paganism of Africa". He said that in all actuality, for everything white people have "done for us", WE OWE THEM. So that's when I hung up the phone.

That guy isn't the only white person who believes that. It would take a miracle from God AND an act of Congress to ever get any reparations. And with racism STILL so abundant, it's definitely not the right time. It will never be the right time as far as I'm concerned, because the Man only knows two things: Lies, and EXCUSES.
quote:
Originally posted by SistahSouljah:

It would take a miracle from God AND an act of Congress to ever get any reparations. And with racism STILL so abundant, it's definitely not the right time. It will never be the right time as far as I'm concerned, because the Man only knows two things: Lies, and EXCUSES.


You may be right, but in my opinion, it's part of the quest for justice that we must continue to fight for - without regard to white folks' willingness to do it. It's the right thing and we must fight for it because it is right and we deserve it. We earned it. It's our money!

Also, IMO, it was a bigger fight to get to where we are now versus what we have to do to go forward and win reparations.
quote:
Originally posted by SistahSouljah:
It would take a miracle from God AND an act of Congress to ever get any reparations. And with racism STILL so abundant, it's definitely not the right time. It will never be the right time as far as I'm concerned, because the Man only knows two things: Lies, and EXCUSES.


All we need is the miracle ... even Congress can't do anything about one of those!! Big Grin
quote:
Originally posted by MBM:
quote:
Originally posted by SistahSouljah:

It would take a miracle from God AND an act of Congress to ever get any reparations. And with racism STILL so abundant, it's definitely not the right time. It will never be the right time as far as I'm concerned, because the Man only knows two things: Lies, and EXCUSES.


You may be right, but in my opinion, it's part of the quest for justice that we must continue to fight for - without regard to white folks' willingness to do it. It's the right thing and we must fight for it because it is right and we deserve it. We earned it. It's our money!

Also, IMO, it was a bigger fight to get to where we are now versus what we have to do to go forward and win reparations.




True, true. I definitely feel we are owed compensation. Perhaps I'm being a pessimist, but we've been disappointed by the government before, and I just don't see any extreme changes happening in my lifetime. (And for goodness sakes I'm only 17, that's a long life to live! Roll Eyes)
quote:
Originally posted by SistahSouljah:
This seems to be a very complex issue...I see both sides but I have to say...

I don't see reparations happening.

I once had a conversation with a white person who admitted that he hated Black people, because "A Black man stole a job from my dad and I went starving for 2 years". Yeah, it's true. Anyway, his argument was that we've ALREADY been given our reparations. He said white people did us a favor by bringing our ancestors over here, making us civilized, and tearing us away from "the paganism of Africa". He said that in all actuality, for everything white people have "done for us", WE OWE THEM. So that's when I hung up the phone.

That guy isn't the only white person who believes that. It would take a miracle from God AND an act of Congress to ever get any reparations. And with racism STILL so abundant, it's definitely not the right time. It will never be the right time as far as I'm concerned, because the Man only knows two things: Lies, and EXCUSES.


Reparations is a bad idea and unconstitutional:

An old aristocratic notion: Corruption of blood.

If you're pro-reparations you will in the end set a legal precedent for visiting crimes of the parents / grandparents / ancestors on the present day children.

Plus you will have to bring back the old bloodlines racist crap:

Does Halle Berry pay reparations to herself? (White / Black)

What about Tiger Woods? (Black/Asian)

How "black" do you have to be? Is it 25%, 10%, 50% etc?

Much like everyone pooh pahed the lawsuit against big tobacco when other businesses said it would lead to lawsuits against them: McDonalds and fast food ring a bell.

Ironically pro-reparations if actually passed would set the stage for a totalitarian National Socialis Worker's Party regime given that you have just codified into law punishing people for the "actions" of their ancestors.

No one thinking rationally about the matter rather than emotionally could support that.
If you're talking about reparations for slavery, then you're correct; punishing for the crimes of ancestors. However, reparations goes beyond the emancipation proclamation, because the vestiages of slavery,e.g., Jim Crow, Black codes, and the other forms of lawful discrimination, continued. In fact, the fact that we continue to be faced with unlawful discrimination to this day, is what reparations is all about.

I don't understand you comment pro-reparations if actually passed would set the stage for a totalitarian National Socialis Worker's Party regime given that you have just codified into law punishing people for the "actions" of their ancestors.). Please explain.
Nay. It would have been legitimate compensation for the transgressions of slavery had it been done in the first couple of generations after abolition, but 140 years later? Why should I get a check paying me for the hardships of my ancestors? Also, if reperations occured, would not the institutions of white America then say, "well, we're done, everything's a clean slate now?" You can't give me a check for the scars of my ancestory and then tell me it's done and forgotten, which is what they would have the right to do.
quote:
Originally posted by Kuya Pat:

Ironically pro-reparations if actually passed would set the stage for a totalitarian National Socialis Worker's Party regime given that you have just codified into law punishing people for the "actions" of their ancestors.

No one thinking rationally about the matter rather than emotionally could support that.


And you're not thinking irrationally/emotionally are you? brosmile
quote:
Originally posted by ScoopLa1:

Why should I get a check paying me for the hardships of my ancestors?


Because you have been denied the economic benefits of your ancestors' contributions to this nation. If you had had the benefit of the accumulated earnings and investments that your family had made since they set foot in this country, you (proverbially speaking of course) would be significantly better off today than you are. The fact that the government denied your family the benefit of education, earning wages for your labor, home ownership, the right to own other assets etc. for hundreds of years is a crime that can be made good today.

BTW - if you doubt that there is any connectivity between you and your ancestors look no further than George H. W. Bush, who without the benefit of his father and grandfather would likely be working in a mill somewhere now making slightly more than minimum wage.

Also - here is the link to some additional discussion about the issue that you may find helpful.
My 2 cents-
I am for reparation. I need to state that upfront. Reading some of the postings here, I can't understand why anyone of African American descent would be against reparation. I am enraged over the domino affect of slavery in my country. Even though American slavery ended June 19, 1865, we were still held hostage to the institutional system of slavery years afterwards. And those who exercised their new found freedoms were met with terrorism and death.

In 1897 Louisiana, my great-great grandfather, was murdered by white men who wanted his land. He was killed as he worked in his fields. A friend told me her father's story. He was one of the youngest of 15 children, no more than 5 years old, his father bought land in North Carolina and moved the family there from South Carolina. White men came and took the land away from him and they let him keep the cow because he had babies. My friend's father said they had to walk back to South Carolina and his father was never the same after the experience. There are many stories like these and when some say "NO" to reparations for moral reasons. In America, whites live and breathe money NOT morals. Why do you think terrorist hit the World Trade Center? They know the way to get to Americans is through their pockets, cost them financially that's where their HEART is located. White Americans are not moral beings. They are the OPPRESSOR and will never understand the OPPRESSED.
Malcolm X on reparations:
"If you are the son of a man who had a wealthy estate and you inherit your father's estate, you have to pay off the debts that your father incurred before he died. The only reason that the present generation of white Americans are in a position of economic strength...is because their fathers worked our fathers for over 400 years with no pay...We were sold from plantation to plantation like you sell a horse, or a cow, or a chicken, or a bushel of wheat...All that money...is what gives the present generation of American whites the ability to walk around the earth with their chest out...like they have some kind of economic ingenuity.
Your father isn't here to pay. My father isn't here to collect. But I'm here to collect and you're here to pay."
El-Hajj Malik El-Shabazz (Malcolm X); November 23, 1964, Paris, France; [Malcolm X: By Any Means Necessary, New York: Pathfinder Press, 1970, p123]

If you don't stand for something you will fall for anything!
quote:
Originally posted by MBM:
We haven't had a meaningful discussion about reparations here in quite awhile. There are a number of new members who did not participate in the reparations debates when we had them.

Where are you on the issue? Do you believe that it is a 'just' cause? Do you believe that descendents of slaves _deserve_ reparations? Do you believe that it is a worthwhile issue to fight for? Do you believe that fighting for reparations is more pandering to white America and that our solutions must come exclusively from within? Do you believe that America will ever seriously consider it? Do you believe as some do that there is no standing (legal and otherwise) for current African Americans to petition for reparations? Do you have any thoughts on how to wage this battle?

What do you think?


Reparations ie corruption of blood is a bad idea and would harm the black community more than anything else.

As a pratical matter I don't see the Vietnamese, Chinese, Pacific Islander, Middle Eastern, Hispanic, white, etc. communities voluntarily giving up their money to the black community for the actions of people's ancestors.

Hell everytime someone goes on a rant about this you pretty much piss off every other ethnic group in the States because they don't want to pay for it.

In short my beliefs are simply just because your mother / father was a criminal does not mean you're a criminal anymore than anyone is responsible for the actions of one's ancestors.

To suggest otherwise ie corruption of blood concept (which is what reparations is) leads down a road with a long, sordid past.
quote:
Originally posted by Nmaginate:
quote:
This would give a defined period and a defined class

KWELI,
As soon as obstructionists tried to play the "It's TOO Late For Slavery" Card, the Jim Crow post-"citizenship" era breaches and damages from America's sanctioned APARTHEID Segregation were (and are) being emphasized.

There are a whole set of statistical findings that show exactly how UNEQUAL "separate" was and continues to be.

[1] http://www.millionsforreparations.com/feagin.html
[2] http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2003/06/29/IN309191.DTL

Speaking about taxes... I believe federal income taxes went into effect in the 1920's. We know for a fact that Blacks weren't reaping the benefits from the taxes they(we) paid. In fact, we were paying for our own persecution and there are without a doubt class action set of LIVING SURVIVORS of that unequal protection - our parents and our grandparents for sure (if not some of us).


It started in 1910 and with the passage of the 16th ammendment was constitutional in 1913.

Originally the income tax only targetted the very rich but by the 1940's pretty much everyone who was working was paying into it.

That's why I like the Fair Tax Act HR 25 - www.house.gov and www.fairtax.org

But I digress and go off topic. Wink
quote:
Originally posted by MBM:
We haven't had a meaningful discussion about reparations here in quite awhile. There are a number of new members who did not participate in the reparations debates when we had them.

Where are you on the issue? Do you believe that it is a 'just' cause? Do you believe that descendents of slaves _deserve_ reparations? Do you believe that it is a worthwhile issue to fight for? Do you believe that fighting for reparations is more pandering to white America and that our solutions must come exclusively from within? Do you believe that America will ever seriously consider it? Do you believe as some do that there is no standing (legal and otherwise) for current African Americans to petition for reparations? Do you have any thoughts on how to wage this battle?

What do you think?


Well first, we must all be on the same page. Meaning, we all must agree that we are due reparations for the "free-labor" slaves performed. Reparations could mean a free college education for descendants for the next 20 years or something similar. The playing field will never be levelled. And, as long as there are Blacks in America there will always be a form of discrimnation. But, life could be more comfortable/bearable if we had access to obtain an education or skills.

Believe me, Martin Luther King's dream is just that a dream! A dream that will not come true in America. Because there are those (whites) who will not allow their status to be demoted to being least than a Black. Are there places that you would not go because you are Black? Are there places that you feel unsafe becasue you are Black? I know myself, I would not randomly walk into a bar in Wheeling, West Virginia but I know whites that don't have a problem with going anywhere in this country.

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