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I'm on my way out the door, and I'd like to know. Assuming reparations were made for slavery, what would that solve, and what problems would it cause?

One thing I know would happen is it will embitter everyone towards blacks, especially those who recently immigrated, or immigrated before slavery, because they believe they are not responsible for it. It would cause more racial tension that people have been working to remove for the longest time.

Really, how much would, say $5,000 to every descendant of a slave, do? That's a somewhat reasonable amount, and one that *could* reasonably be paid out.

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Evil can only triumph when good men do nothing.
--------------------------------------- Evil can only triumph when good men do nothing.
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Now we suppose to accept $5000 to each Black man and woman that is a descendant of Black men and women that were enslaved murdered, raped, killed and abused?

Deal with this Burwick, Franklin Raines the Head of Fannie Mae the second or first biggest Mortgage lender in the United States stated that "if African-Americans had been allowed to keep the property that they owned in the 19th Century, they would have more than $12 trillion of property. And today it's $1.2 trillion."

You can not begin to fix your mouth as to how oppression in the United States has affected the Black man and woman. With land ownership comes equity which would allow for more of us to have went to college, But wait we were not allowed to go to college for a long time. Burwick the amount this nation owes the Black man and woman cannot be tabulated on your computer and to offer $5000 as just compensation is an insult.

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The Black man and woman in America is a nation of people; a stolen and lost nation, but a nation none the less. The U.S. just destroyed Iraq in thirty days and has allocated close to $80 billion to rebuild Iraq. The Black man and woman in America was terrorized and destroyed for well over four hundred years. How much do you think it would take to rebuild a nation that was destroyed and bombed for four hundred years if it takes $80 billion to rebuild a nation destroyed in thirty days?


More to come later!

Your Brother Faheem

[This message was edited by Faheem on July 01, 2003 at 04:39 PM.]
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quote:
Originally posted by Barwick:

One thing I know would happen is it will embitter everyone towards blacks, especially those who recently immigrated, or immigrated before slavery, because they believe they are not responsible for it. It would cause more racial tension that people have been working to remove for the longest time.



I don't see any reason why it should embitter anybody. Do you feel more embittered toward Jews as a result of reperations? Japanese?

As for recient immigrants, I'm sure that they, like everybody else, would prefer not to pay taxes for reperations, or to pay off the national debt, etc. The US Government choose to take actions that caused itself to be in debt. If somebody finds those debts too oppressive, nobody forces them to move here.

"La vida te da sorpresas...
Sorpresas te da la vida...",
¡Ay, Dios!

Rubén Blades---Pedro Navaja


Plowshares Actions
The Nuclear Resister
School of the Americas Watch


    How would reparations be paid?
  • Payment may include all of the following: land, equipment, factories, licenses, banks, ships, airplanes, various forms of tax relief, education, training, to name a few...
  • ...a plan for how reparations could be used collectively to enable the African community to become independent... economically self-sufficient for at least seven generations.

    Who would pay reparations?
  • The US Government would pay reparations in the same manner as they voted for and paid billions to Europe through the Marshall Plan after WWII, or billions to Israel every year since WWII, or to Russia, or Eastern Europe, or to prop up some puppet African Government.
  • Just as Americans did not, as individual, pay for aid to those countries, they will not pay for the debt owed to Africans in America.
  • Nor are we blaming individual Americans, we are simply holding the US Government accountable for its wrongs.

    http://www.ncobra.com/ncobra_info.htm
Barwick...

As a former debate opponent of mine would say:
Your argument about "embittering" Blacks' fellow Americans... IS A KNOWN *LOGICAL FALLACY*!

I believe that would fall under the category of APPEAL TO CONSEQUENCES or APPEAL TO FEAR or APPEAL TO RIDICULE, etc.

It seems PROTESTWARRIORS are keen for pointing out personal attacks... well, I figured I'd do some pointing.

I do believe you have made an APPEAL TO TRADITION in your support of the Constitution and the racist order where "slavery, while immoral, was NOT illegal"... I could be wrong. But that logic doesn't follow, at least not with your conclusion.

We are all too familiar with the APPEAL TO POPULARITY citing that so many Americans are against REPARATIONS... What a solid argument! Smile
Reparations
and
Eradicating
Racism



Racism in America is manufactured over time much like Ford manufactures cars and works only after all parts are in place and operational. Just as it would be useless for Ford Motor Company to produce automobiles without engines, racism as a concept is equally useless when it exist in only one segment of society and not in others. Societal racism must be pervasive in order for it to be operational and useful as a concept. That is, societal racism has to be consistent throughout a given society in order to be operationally detrimental to its host. In other words, racism must exist in education, economics, religion, labor, etc, - it must be prevalent in virtually all areas of the lived experience with equal consistency and sameness, - just like the manufacture of automobiles. This essential point explains why for example, all American textbooks praise slaveholders like Thomas Jefferson, George Washington and Andrew Jackson. No such American textbook written and intended for American classroom education denigrates these and other rich white slave holders! Yet ironically, grade school children in America are taught that Adolf Hitler the icon of Nazism is bad because he is responsible for the death of 10 million Jews. No white school age child is taught the truth that the only difference between Hitler's Nazism and American slavery is the race of the victims! In higher education white scholars and scientist have for decades written that blacks are intellectually inferior. Accepted as standard science in universities around the world, this bogus science is thus manufactured and enjoys the same consistency Ford Motor Company enjoys in the manufacture of their automobiles!

Religion is another clear example of manufactured racism in American society. Irrespective of what form of the Christian faith is practiced, e.g., Catholicism, Mormonism or Southern Christianity and even including fringe groups like the KKK or Aryan nations, - all Christian beliefs and practices are not only presented as something white, but more importantly all have placed proclamations in their tabernacles that bemoan and denigrate black people and/or black skin. This consistent conspicuousness is no mere accident! Herein rest the core of religious racism that literally works to confirm and give affirmation to the whiteness of the Christian faith while disallowing black scriptural denigration of white people.

Thus, monetary reparations are but one small part of solving the racism dilemma. In fact, even if all 40 million black people tomorrow received reparations checks from the government, racism in labor, housing, education, religion, criminal justice and all areas black people come in contact with would still exist just as it did before checks were issued! In other words, Negroes would have a few more bucks in their pocket, that aside little else in American society would change! To end racism in America will require a massive deconstruction of all and every area of the American lived experience where racism has been constructed. This literally means extracting racism from education, religion, science and everywhere else whites constructed and manufactured racism. Reparations checks alone will never eradicate racism!

[This message was edited by kraaaal on July 01, 2003 at 06:39 PM.]
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Excellent perspective KRAAAL...

You know, I never heard anyone promote REPARATIONS as some final resolution of race problems. You make some excellent points. And, in an answer to the topic question set by BARWICK, REPARATIONS can be fashioned in a way to eliminate/minimize the effects of racism.

My post of the objectives from N'Cobra, a leading Reparations organization, highlights SELF-SUFFICIENCY as the ultimate goal. That's the way you eliminate/minimize the effects racism. It matters not whether an individual of whatever race habors ill-will/views. What does matter and must be dealt with is the opportunities that those people with those views have to impose their views or rather subjugate you by them in spheres of government, employment, housing, education, religion, the criminal justice & judicial system, etc.

I would insist that REPARATIONS as it is primarily being promoted by organizations like N'Cobra do not favor the so-called "Checks In The Mail" solution. You can see that by my post (of N'Cobra's 'How Would It Be Paid' as well as my own personal remarks) as well as others, MBM in particular.

I think YSSYS said it best...
The Black community's infrastructure is emploding... and that will be priority as well as the least among us, which KEVIN so adequately dedicates emphasis to so often.
quote:
Originally posted by Barwick:
I'm on my way out the door, and I'd like to know. Assuming reparations were made for slavery, what would that solve, and what problems would it cause?

One thing I know would happen is it will embitter everyone towards blacks, especially those who recently immigrated, or immigrated before slavery, because they believe they are not responsible for it. It would cause more racial tension that people have been working to remove for the longest time.

Really, how much would, say $5,000 to every descendant of a slave, do? That's a somewhat reasonable amount, and one that *could* reasonably be paid out.

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Evil can only triumph when good men do nothing.


Reparations for Japanese and European Jews were totally accepted by the American people. How did they get those reparations? These two groups put constant pressure on the United States gov't. During the 1980's Japan had a choke hold on the American economy and they used this leverage to get reparation for the wrongfully imprisoned Japanese.
European Jews got reparations based on the shared ideology of Christians in the U.S. and Europe. Not only are the Jews 60 + years after the end of WWII still going to world court to get additional monetary reparations for their desecendants, but they ended up getting their own country!Eek
The leverage that these two groups used was economic pressure to get what the reparations they deserved. They also had lobby or pressure groups to spread the word.
I don't see anyone getting upset with Asians or Jewish people because of this. There is no racial strife between Asians or Jews and other racial groups. SO why would African reparations cause racial strife between blacks and other racial groups, except for the almighty whitey?
I don't get it. Need more of an explaination.

Our people have made the mistake of confusing the methods with the objectives. As long as we agree on objectives, we should never fall out with each other just because we believe in different methods, or tactics, or strategy. We have to keep in mind at all times that we are not fighting for separation. We are fighting for recognition as free humans in this society
Malcolm X, 1965
So you say that instead of $1.2 trillion it would $be 12 trillion? Figures and projections can be fashioned to work in any manner you want them, I could probably find a figure that would say that instead of $1.2 trillion, it would be $0.8 trillion.

There is no monetary amount that can be set to pay people back for their fathers and mothers, grandfathers, brothers, and sisters, being shot or lynched. We start down that trend of trying to figure out what would have been if slavery didn't happen, and what are we going to do? Start lynching white people because it's payback for the slaves that were lynched?

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Evil can only triumph when good men do nothing.
"but the only one capable of fixing all the wrongs left this earth 2000 years ago, and we're not sure when He's gonna make it back here next"

Barwick, what you just said is baloney! For almost the last 200 years the US government has been paying Native Americans "Indian annuities" and today many own casinos. The Jews received reparations in the form of Israel, - dollars that come directly out your pocket! Japanese Americans received government checks for wrongs perpetrated against them by this US government.

Now cut your waiting till Jesus comes back crap and explain why African Americans shouldn't' receive the same consideration as the others who were wronged by the US government!!!
Barwick posted,

So you say that instead of $1.2 trillion it would $be 12 trillion? Figures and projections can be fashioned to work in any manner you want them, I could probably find a figure that would say that instead of $1.2 trillion, it would be $0.8 trillion.


**yes, figures can be manipulated....but figures can also be justified based on expenses, past monetary amounts converted to present-day values and projections based on sound logical market and finance principles. To really be astute in what one does, they need to employ scientific and management principles and not just spout off contradictory rhetoric.....that is the lazy person's way of trying to attain credibility without doing any work.....I am sure as we speak...someone is at work trying to assess a tangible price for the MONETARY aspects of reparations....that will not be easily dismissible by naysayers........contrary to popular belief...everyone cannot be right.......the amount of logic applied that is beyond rebuttal determines who is really right........
quote:
There is no monetary amount that can be set to pay people back for their fathers and mothers, grandfathers, brothers, and sisters, being shot or lynched.
So I guess the thing to do then is... NOTHING! ... huh BARWICK??

There incalculable price so what's the use in counting anything?? What in the world kind of reasoning is that??

NOW! You are clearly being an OBSTRUCTIONIST! Now... you have NO claims that you have NOT done anything. You are actively standing in the way of progress. You are actively standing in the way of what is right by your DO NOTHING suggestions. Yes even YOU recoginze that a terrible inJUSTICE has been done and that JUSTICE has been long avoided. Yet, your answer is:
    That will be too painful. It won't help things now. Just forget it. It's been so long ago.
Now... you have clearly aligned yourself with the racist, obstructionist of the past. No, BARWICK, you are in no wise any different. Your language, your creedo is all the same.
    /No amount of gold could provide an adequate compensation for the exploitation and humiliation of the Negro in America down through the centuries. Not all the wealth of this affluent society could meet the bill. Yet a price can be placed on unpaid wages. The ancient common law has always provided a remedy for the apppropriation of the labor of one human being by another. This law should be in the form of a massive program by the government of special, compensatory measures which could be regarded as a settlement in accordance with the accepted practice of common law. Such measures would certainly be less expensive than any computation based on two centuries of unpaid wages and accumulated interest.
    - Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. 'Why We Can't Wait' 1963
Nmaginate posted,

NOW! You are clearly being an OBSTRUCTIONIST! Now... you have NO claims that you have NOT done anything. You are actively standing in the way of progress. You are actively standing in the way of what is right by your DO NOTHING suggestions. Yes even YOU recoginze that a terrible inJUSTICE has been done and that JUSTICE has been long avoided. Yet, your answer is:
That will be too painful. It won't help things now. Just forget it. It's been so long ago.

Now... you have clearly aligned yourself with the racist, obstructionist of the past. No, BARWICK, you are in no wise any different. Your language, your creedo is all the same.

* Nmaginate,

when will we learn that dialogue with 95% of whites is fruitless?...because their mantra is to accept it or leave...and neither one will never be satisfactory for black people...that is why when whites speak of AA and white resentment....who really gives a shiit? i mean damn, they always have a problem with anything that even hints of equality in this country...but as they have been finding out..it is about change...not the status quo they so dearingly try to hold onto............
Fine, if that's the case, I demand payment from the ancient people who've invaded my ancestors countries, and from those here in the United States who oppressed my family when they were here. Those who put my ancestors into slavery hundreds of years ago, well before your ancestors even left the continent of Africa. I demand reparations from them, too, because that would only be fair. I'm entitled to it. I deserve it, if they weren't put in slavery, I might be a wealthy landowner in Europe right now.

But I'm not. And I'm over it. Yes that's my answer, it sucks, and it's not fair, but I'm over it, and things would be more than fine if people would quit whining about what they're entitled to because of past wrongs, and just get on with life. The Jews in the holocaust, I'm sorry, it's already happened, reparations were made, and they'll never stop until people just say "yes it was horrible, it sucked, but it's over now, let's move on". Same thing with Native Americans and Japanese Americans, EVERYBODY deserves something for some injustice that was done to them. Let's move on.

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Evil can only triumph when good men do nothing.
Well... KEVIN

For one, I'm not so deluded as to call this a dialogue. That requires people on both sides to be reasonable. I mean... look at Barwick! When we don't yeild to his thinking (I guess we're suppose to since he has the best grip on things... Wink) he resorts to telling us what the conclusion is or will be in order to discourage our pursuit of JUSTICE.

I realize in terms of both sides 'coming to terms' with one another that this is a useless exercise. However, somebody has to stand in the gap and let them know where we stand... and that we stand FIRM, unmoveable... undetered by their OBSTRUCTIONIST, distracting tactics.

We Shall Not Be Moved...
quote:
The Jews in the holocaust, I'm sorry, it's already happened, reparations were made, and they'll never stop until people just say "yes it was horrible, it sucked, but it's over now, let's move on". Same thing with Native Americans and Japanese Americans, EVERYBODY deserves something for some injustice that was done to them. Let's move on.
Sooooo... in your book...
All those named above were justified if for no other reason than the fact that they already got theirs???

And, let me correct you... REPARATIONS/restitution ARE (present/future tense) being made to the JEWS. They are in constant negotiations. They have received restitution for their persecution (gassing), for slave labor, enough cash for not only survivors but for "humanitarian aid" and the like. And low and behold... the U.S. State Department is instrumental in implementing not only the arrangements for compensation but for RESEARCH & EDUCATION about the HOLOCAUST.

Somehow... I don't get the LET'S MOVE ON signal from that!
Nmaginate,

Like yourself, I know damn well black people will never be deterred....and unlike the lofton's of the world, we will never concede failure....but you are right, the idea of a white kid telling me about the black perspective/reality is about as funny and arrogant as can be. I understand where he is coming from...it is the standard mindset used by many non-blacks when facing the issue of black progress as defined by blacks......i read a "white man's code of ethics" once that said to always think counter to blacks.....even when they are right....
quote:
Originally posted by Nmaginate:
quote:
The Jews in the holocaust, I'm sorry, it's already happened, reparations were made, and they'll never stop until people just say "yes it was horrible, it sucked, but it's over now, let's move on". Same thing with Native Americans and Japanese Americans, EVERYBODY deserves something for some injustice that was done to them. Let's move on.
Sooooo... in your book...
All those named above were justified if for no other reason than the fact that they already got theirs???

And, let me correct you... REPARATIONS/restitution ARE (present/future tense) being made to the JEWS. They are in constant negotiations. They have received restitution for their persecution (gassing), for slave labor, enough cash for not only survivors but for "humanitarian aid" and the like. And low and behold... the U.S. State Department is instrumental in implementing not only the arrangements for compensation but for RESEARCH & EDUCATION about the HOLOCAUST.

Somehow... I don't get the LET'S MOVE ON signal from that!


And it's about time they stopped paying reparations to the Jews too. Yes, I've said it's horrible, but damn it'll go on forever, the debt will never be repaid. Money isn't going to solve problems. Who decides when something is "bad" enough to deserve reparations? Who decides how much is "fair" to give? If you start reparations, then someone will always think they didn't get enough (because it'll never be enough), and the whole friggin' thing will go on for EVER, and we'll be having this debate 80 years from now. Either they'll have to KEEP paying reparations to descendants of former slaves, or they'll have to stop and listen to the demands of those who are "entitled" to more, AGAIN, like they are right now.

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Evil can only triumph when good men do nothing.
And your answer is to do nothing...

Just want to know so I have you on record. Barwick... I do believe you started posting under the facade of being fair, reasonable, etc...

Now look at you!
You're grasping at straws pleading with us to accept you feable points.

"Oh! When will it end!!??" What does that say about what you think of Black people??
So, noone has dared to claim that reparations would really help or solve anything in our communities. I would like to comment on the fact that if the land 'taken' or cheated from our ancestors would today have a worth of say a trillion dollars, the amount would be far far higher for those non-blacks who likewise over the centuries have lost their lands and property through cheats and force. So don't get hung up over the fact that if blacks had never lost any land or property that the one or so trillion dollars would mean prosperity for all of today's black folk. Thats a wildly optimistic speculation. Its far more likely that instead we'd have a rich black class of heirs, numbering in a percentage point or two, who are hardly willing to share their family fortunes with the rest of us. Thats just common sense. You don't see the great rich white heirs to fortunes walking around making all white folks rich do ya? Fact is there is nothing that can be done for past hardships, whether the victims were white, black or otherwise. And you certainly cannot hold accountable someone who was not born when the deed was done. Its a waste of time worrying about reparations. I mean, where do you think the money would actually come from? Its pathetic.
power posted,

Its a waste of time worrying about reparations. I mean, where do you think the money would actually come from? Its pathetic.



***It is a waste of time to YOU.....read some of the other posts and see the many forms of reparations mentioned.....it goes beyond that simplistic azz mindset of getting a check that benefits only a few....it also includes righting some of the racial disparities in many sectors of this society.......as so far as the money.....if Iraq can be fixed.....it'll be figured out where it will come from.
Reparations whatever form is a MEANS...

Is the money going to Iraq going to rebuild Iraq just by the virtue of being money???
That's a stupid question.

GO TO N'COBRA website...

Reparations will be a means to foster self-sufficiency. That's the emphasis of N'Cobra and any Reparations organization seriously undertaking this issue...

BLACK CONTROL OF BLACK TAXES... That's my opinion... ANSWERS... Where is it gonna come from?? How long will it last?? ALL THAT!!

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