Racism in the U.K and U.S.A: a comparison

Based upon your statements,I'd ask Britain is a white liberal country, right? Just like France?
Yet France has had increasing racial attacks on non-whites in their country and have kept Africans from their former colonies in refugee housing since the Algerian revolution forming run-down ghettos.
In the U.K. during the "promotion" of the war in Iraq, some uninformed government offical proclaimed that the British should support the U.S. effort in Iraq and that there were close ties between the U.S. and in some cases actual relations. I couldn't believe that the liberal British would even make such a proclamation! This was just a part of the promotion of this war. In the Northeast, the closest relations to the British I can compare their modus operandus to the whites that still reside in Britian. They do a lot of talking around and double talk. You can't trust one part of anything that comes out of their mouths. Northern whites are the ones who originated gerrymandering disenfranchising hundreds of thousands of black voters in the north for years. A tactic that the former Democrats, now Republicans have taken to the national level. Example 2000 presidental elections in Florida.
Other than that I don't even think about white Britons, even while I was living over there. I was content for once being arouond almost all black people. It was very refreshing to not be around them on my free time. I was hanging out in Brixton and Herne Hill during my stay there.

Our people have made the mistake of confusing the methods with the objectives. As long as we agree on objectives, we should never fall out with each other just because we believe in different methods, or tactics, or strategy. We have to keep in mind at all times that we are not fighting for separation. We are fighting for recognition as free humans in this society
Malcolm X, 1965

The Naragansett, Mashantucket and Wampanaug Indian Tribes can give you the low-down on the British. They'll have no qualms in doing so. Will tell you alllllll about it.

I have to admit that in the UK I never feel the need to stick to my own racial group. Many African Americans who visit the UK say the same thing. However in the US I sometimes feel awkward when white people are around even though some complement me on my nice accent. Its almost as if I expect the word nigger to pop up at any moment and this has happened to me on only one occassion.

I have always wondered how white Britons viewed Black Americans. One Black American stated " they either love you or hate you". When Samuel Jackson was in the UK filming Formula 51/51st State, a racist white called him a nigger. When Sam called him a mother fucker the idiot replied " oh you're American, sorry". Obviously he bought the old violent black American stereotype not the oh you're actually American so you're better than British blacks stereotype.

Remember during WW2 when black GIs were very popular among British whites? I'm pretty sure black britons were still treated as second class citizens.

Britain might claim to be Liberal but there is still no black equivalent of Colin Powell, black footballers are still called monkeys during matches and many blacks have died while in police custody. Call it strange but I still feel "safe" among all this than I do in the United States.

Oh Yssys you've been to Brixton. I hope you enjoyed your stay in the UK. I will soon post a thread about black on black crime in the UK and compare it to the States. Hope to hear your thoughts.

Thanks for the topic Maverick. I've always wondered what the black experiance was like in the UK. The experiances posted here are very interesting.

This is very interesting to me. We all know the African Diaspora induces change in the social fabric wherever its people reside. I am speaking only of the African Diaspora, and not African immigrants as a "documented" population. I mean those people who descendants of Africans of unknown ancestry. those people who are "out of Africa" against their will.

It has become more, and more apparent to me there is a dynamic going on that has each society in an ongoing state of change. Russell enters the game and nature of competition changes. Chamberlain arrives to compete with him and they want to raise the hoop two feet. Outlaw dunking its showboating. I pick these sports examples because they more graphically illustrate the phenomenon.

When we enter a room identity changes from ancestral nationality to simple color.

Language changes to accommodate us. Overtime we adopt their language change and they take it back in our form and change it to fit their mentality. Example: Brother to "Bruh" to "Bro."
The examples become as sophisticated as the circumstance.

I have decided to give this phenomenon a name. It is as large in world civilization as the African Diaspora. I call it Afrigenesis. Afrigenesis is the reciprocal societal reconstruction and rebirth, created typically in European American society with incorporation of African American-Americans. The definition needs refining, but covers the basics.

I'm working on it.

It is a part of who we are in society. It happens wherever Africans of unknown African ancestry "achieve numbers" in a society, and most notably in European-driven societies.

PEACE

Jim Chester

You are who you say you are. Your children are who you say you are.

Jim, will you give some more examples of this phenomenom? I'm just not sure if the dynamics of this societal reconstruction are the same for each displaced African.

Maverick, thanks for allowing us these insights!

and JWC this statement is profound...

"When we enter a room identity changes from ancestral nationality to simple color."

wow! u mean a man's identity is "italian" or "irish" or "german" until an african enters the picture and then he becomes a "white male"? !!!wow in the case of raising the hoops/standards when an african enters an arena- then "Afrigenisis" would appear to be a negative thing since it encourages the ole "we gotta work twice as hard..." mantra

Here in Canada people tend to be more racist against Indians and "Hindus" than against black people. Probably because they've had more contact with the former and comparitively little contact with the latter.

"You liberals with your conspiracy theories are starting to sound like your own version of the John Birch Society"-Rush Limbaugh

Well isn't that because there are more (east) Indians/Hindus than blacks anyway in Canada?

quote:

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Originally posted by keylargo:
Jim, will you give some more examples of this phenomenom? I'm just not sure if the dynamics of this societal reconstruction are the same for each displaced African.

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I don't have a standing list. But, as I think about the phenomenon it becomes more and more apparent for me. Sometimes the revelation comes in the form of a validation of an earlier conclusion.

I mentioned the reaction of the NBA to Chamberlain's entry into the league. I later remembered that it had to be a reaction to him being African American, and not simply about height. There was a guy out of Notre Dame, I believe, who was the toast of the NBA. His name was George Mikan. He played for the then Minneapolis Lakers. He was near to, but less than 7ft. They didn't raise the hoop. The knicks brought in "Sweetwater" Clifton from the Harlem Globetrotters, who shorter. The was no cry to raise the basket. Clifton abided by the "gentleman's agreement", 'No dunking.' Chamberlain came on the scene, he didn't. He wa as tall as Mikan. He was quicker than Mikan. He could also play Mikan into the floor. The cry came to "raise the basket." Chamberlain was unfair.

I'm trying to stay with ordinary things. Dance. In the 40's, African Americans were doing a dance (I'm told. ) called The Lindy. Wide swings out, over the head, through the legs, leap frogs, etc. Europeans brought it "downtown", but since it couldn't be the same they called "The Jitterbug." Different. Only in color. But dance in America was changed forever.

Everyone thinks "high fives" are new. We were 'doing five' in front, in the back, etc. It was a way for us to say publicly to each other "in your face." But you didn't do it on the field of competition. But, over time European wanted the joy of the expression. They began to adopt it. It spread everywhere. We took to another with forearms, and now body bumps to maintain individuality.

We imitated them as well. The religion thing was started by Europeans who were Catholic. They used to "cross" themselves at the foul line in basketball, before extra points in football, in their corners and at the ref's briefing to fighters in boxing. We took that to the next level.

Language. Things that were impolite in my community were "slipped" into our music. Europeans took it as "hip" and adopted into their everyday language. Nitty Gritty was a term about the lack of body hygiene. I told you about "Bruh" and "Bro." When I first heard the word "soul" in a recording it was startling. Not because it was bad, but because it was a word that was about "doing it our way." The song was "One Mint Julip" by Raymond Charles. The was a break in the song and Raymond said, "Just a little bit of ____." We used to lay on the floor with our ears to the speakers to settle arguments whether he said "soda" or "soul now." It was never settled. Europeans (students) used to see our great interest and began to bounce the word back at us to show the were "hip." A word in itself.

You have things you have noticed but maybe not this particular context. We are constantly pushing and pulling with European America adjusting the shape of our society.

Let me know when you discover examples of you own. I love 'em.

PEACE

Jim Chester

You are who you say you are. Your children are who you say you are.

quote:

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Originally posted by negrospiritual:
Maverick, thanks for allowing us these insights!

and JWC this statement is profound...

_"When we enter a room identity changes from ancestral nationality to simple color."_

wow! u mean a man's identity is "italian" or "irish" or "german" until an african enters the picture and then he becomes a "white male"? !!!wow in the case of raising the hoops/standards when an african enters an arena- then "Afrigenisis" would appear to be a negative thing since it encourages the ole "we gotta work twice as hard..." mantra

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Precisely. It's also true for Asians, Hispanics, everybody, except us.

When Asians are in the room alone they distinguish themselves by their ancestral nationality. When asked, "What are you?" a person from Central America doesn't reply, "I'm Hispanic." That person will say, "I'm Guadamlan, or San Salvodoran, or whatever."

We are the only people in the world who identify ourselves to the world, and to ourselves with the same words. We may say, "My folks are from Georgia, or North Carolina, or Louisiana." But, that's it, we are from the State our family came from. And, in most cases that is likely to be the State our family originated in. It is certain to be the one our family left.

We, the people of the African Diaspora, are the only people in the world without an ancestral nationality. That's the way "Charlie" designed it. It is designed to "keep us in a funk" as the saying goes.

The good news we have the power to fix it, each as individuals. That's what I did.

About being trapped into 'having to do more', you have it in reverse. Europeans know that when an African American enter the scene, he/she has already done something special to get there. It is they who have to do better. The pressure in on them, and they know it. That is why there is the ready challenge that "the only way you got here is because of Affirmative Action."

Once when I was interviewing a guy for an engineering position, he began the process by saying had he known "what" I was he would not have driven "all the way from Harrisburg" for the interview. I ask, "What do you mean?" He replied, "Well, I don't have a chance. You got your job through Affirmative Action,and will be looking to hire another "Black." I was cool.
I said there are no "blacks" as you call us. Second, I didn't get my job because of Affirmative Action. There was no such thing when I started. And you're right, you don't have a chance. You just talked yourself out of the running.

A level playing field with African Americans scares most European Americans TO DEATH!! They know they have been "running down hill" all their lives.

PEACE

Jim Chester

You are who you say you are. Your children are who you say you are.

[This message was edited by James Wesley Chester on September 09, 2003 at 04:50 PM.]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by shebakoby:
Here in Canada people tend to be more racist against Indians and "Hindus" than against black people. Probably because they've had more contact with the former and comparitively little contact with the latter."

I ran across a piece on the internet about African Canadians that threw a lot of light on the situation there, for me. I learned (according to the piece) that most Canadians of unknown African ancestry live "in the major cities and eastern Canada." Mostly Nova Scotia, because of the Underground Railroad.

When you look at a map, it becomes clear, New Hampshire, Maine, Nova Scotia, New Brunswick.

There is also probably some level of resentment for Indians (people of Asia Sub-continent) because of economic impact as well. Color just makes it easier. I would be surprised if it is related to their religion.

Incidentally, one of the biggest, if not the biggest, facility dedicatedd to Hinduism is located very near here, in northeast Pennsylvania, in a town called Schuylkill (schoolkill) Haven. FYI

PEACE

Jim Chester

You are who you say you are. Your children are who you say you are.

[This message was edited by James Wesley Chester on September 10, 2003 at 04:54 AM.]

quote:

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Originally posted by keylargo:
Jim, will you give some more examples of this phenomenom? I'm just not sure if the dynamics of this societal reconstruction are the same for each displaced African.

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Rather than "each displaced African", I am looking at societies in which a significant portion of the population becomes members of the African Disapora. It is normal for an exchange to take place among diverse populations within a given society. English in the U.S., for example, incorporates many of the languages of immigrant populations. It is a benign exchange. I perceive something different happening with Afrigenesis. There is an antagonism. A kind of yanking back and forth. There is a claim of dominance. Or a denial of legitimacy in the society. I don't know enough about other societies to to evaluate them. But I see it in America's society repeatedly.

I think I will open the subject on the board's "Issues" forum to see if the members have examples to fit the phenomenon. I am convinced it is a defineable phenomenon. For an example to be valid, it must clearly involve denial of access/legitimacy, or the enactment of a potition of dominance.

An assessment by the board will help evaluate this behavior.

PEACE

Jim Chester

You are who you say you are. Your children are who you say you are.

Hey Jim good points about African-based cultural influences on European culture in America. The same thing happened in Europe with black music. How many times have you heard the Rolling Stones, Sting say how Reggae or early American rock-n-roll influenced their music? We know that many of some of our best musicians and actors fled to France during the 1920's and just after WWI helping to make France's cultural scene the most popular in the world.
Basically, our culture has got it going on bottom line.

Yssys:

As life would have it, my family became involve when a cousin, a musician, went to Europe became involved with two separate women, at separate times. The result, and first knowledge to me, at our 2001 family reunion there were the two women, friendly thank God, each with their daughters. One girl is living in the U.S., is a 22-year old twin. The other girl is a 14-year old. Both were eager to meet their father's family. And proud to be Swedish-African American, or I guess its more appropriately African American-Swedish. I couldn't have been more proud.

And of course I eagerly gave each of them copies of my books. They loved them.

I am convinced the phenomenon of African Diaspora influence is an identifiable force in every society. In America, I believe it is continuing to shape us both socially, and politically.

By the way, I used to play in a rock group. One guy used to tell me how to sing to sound like a "black" guy!!!! I told him I can do that whenever I want to, or need to. You trying to tell me, a "black" guy how sound like a "white" guy who is singing like a "black" guy.

You know how that story ended.

I gave it a name. Afrigenesis.

PEACE

Jim Chester

You are who you say you are. Your children are who you say you are.

quote:

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Originally posted by maverick:
There is a saying in the U.K " Racisis in America are direct and in your face while racists in Britain are more subtle and 2 faced". Some blacks in the UK believe that there are more opportunities for black people in the US. They say at least in the U.S you can tell who your enemy is straight away so you know who to turn and not turn to. I believe Malcolm X said he'd rather talk with a man that lets him know where he stands even if he is wrong than talk to a man that comes across as an angel but is really a devil in disguise. Makes me wonder anytime a white Briton is being helpful to me is he/she genuine or is just putting on a happy face while hiding a racist attitude? When I am in America I feel a need to stick to black people. Call me ignorant for making assumptions about white Americans but I am but I am working on it. Have any of you been to the U.K and if so does your attitude change? What are your assumptions of white Britons?

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I wish there were Indian posters here to talk about how the racism they go through in the UK compared to the U.S. About 2 years ago, there was a race riot in England where white Britons trashed an Asian Indian neighborhood.

Now according to some of the people that I knew in college that visited in England, that there are skinheads there also like here in America. And sometimes, they'll call an Indian the N-word as quick as they'll call a black person that, maybe because in those skinhead's racist eyes, they hate Indians and blacks equally.

Plus, on one census, British Indians were once called Afro-Asians, due to also being called "black" by the British Empire.

Why Indians and blacks don't have closer relations to each other despite both are catching hell from racists on both sides of the Atlantic, I'll never know.

What are your views on that, maverick?

Even though the majority of them are descended from black Dravidians and the Dahlit/Dalit class who "immigrated" to that area through the Arab slave trade from East Africa. And the lowest castes of their society are filled with black skinned people, they will still try to act as if they are better than blacks who claim recent African ancestry.
Because they simply don't want to be associated with the negative connotation given to the term "black" by westerners. Although, Vijay Singh (the golfer) does call himself black. I believe he's West Indian/Caribbean of South Asian heritage.

Sorry Ive been away for a while. Huey, Yssys is right but let me add something here. Unlike in America blacks in the UK are actually not the largest minority. The Asians are and yet when you look at commercials and tv shows there are hardly any asian faces on them. There are also no asian footballers. I have already dismissed the notion that the reason they dont play football is due to them being physically weaker than black or white players since it crosses into Bell Curve territory. However I wonder if their exclusion from the mainstream is due to racism or Asian culture.

Mind you while they are seen as a model minority they still experience a lot of racial hatred. It is even now common for racist whites to tell blacks how much they prefer them to "Pakis" (a racial slur for Asians)and they even expect you to join in their racism. Sadly some black britons have a hatred for asians too. Although most are simply reacting to what they percieve as asian racism there are the odd ignorant few that hate the way asians look, smell and etc. During the 1970s and 80s black and asian gangs fought side by side against white skinheads. However control of the drug markets has caused a rivalry between the two groups who are now more criminally motivated than political.

Many also feel that the asian community hasnt tried to build better relations with black people. You could actually sit and chill with an asian guy but God forbid you want to marry his daughter, son, sister or brother. 2001 was a year that saw clashes between white and asian youths. Whites charged that asians did not want to assimilate into Britsh culture and were taking jobs. Sept 11 also caused a rift in the asian community with mostly Indian Hindus distancing themselves away from mostly Pakistani muslims. The BNP (think the KKK but with some intelligence)tried to exploit this rift and the anti-muslim prejudice that was floating around by offering to ally with the Hindus against the muslims. This alliance never came to pass though.

This is the way I see it but like you said it would be best for a SE Asian to give his/her views. Maybe the black community could do more to reach out to asians I dont know. Who experiences the most racism? I honestly couldnt say but just bear this in mind: Despite the fact that blacks are outnumbered by both whites and asians in the UK, blacks still outnumber both whites and asians in prisons.

JWC,
I commented upon the change white man's change in identity from "italian/european-american" to "white man" when a black man walks into the room to highlight the mentality of white people. I do not support/advocate black people changing their identity to "african-american-american" to alleviate such mental illness on the part of white americans. Despite whatever contortions in identity euro-americans go through, I remain what i was when i entered this life/world/country/universe/time/space

A BLACK WOMAN