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236 replies

Race relations

NmaginateNmaginateA1
quote:
Originally posted by ZeusTKP:

Why can't you answer a question even if it is ridiculous?



Because that's a ridiculous question and proposition for you to want some type of special treatment, begging us to consider your ridiculous questions like legitimate ones.

Proof that you keep speaking in dialect. Sorry, we don't understand Kiddish.
Last edited {1}
HueyHueyA1
quote:
Originally posted by ZeusTKP:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Nmaginate:
Misdirected Angst... Blacks didn't make those laws.


Yes they did. At least partially. It's not like blacks have no power at all.

[QUOTE]

Zeus, can you explain to me, what Black person or persons actually concocted such a plan of passing laws to dehumanize THEMSELVES? What black people actually went to the so-called "Founding Fathers" and persuaded them in passing laws (either in the Constitution, federal laws, state laws or city laws) where it was not only socially acceptable to lynch/castrate a black man/boy or rape a black woman/girl with impunity, withhold their rights, deny them citizenship, made it illegal to read/write or learn the alphabet, illegal to speak their own languages, express their cultural heritage outside of dancing...but it was also the law ?
NmaginateNmaginateA1
Heuy this is where that statement came from:

Zeus said that Race Relations was a "war" type of conflict that's essentially over a Difference Of Opinions. I asked over what and he said:

Basically laws suchs as affirmitive action and anti-discrimination laws.

I told him those laws weren't crafted by Blacks, Blacks not being among the legislators who wrote those ideas into law. Abandoning what he said earlier:

I know that white legislators support AA, but black people do too. They voted for those legislators.

When I said Blacks Didn't Make Those Laws... He'd figured he'd just say they did.
Z ZeusTKPB4
quote:
Originally posted by Nmaginate:
Okay. Who did?


Are you asking me to name names? Do you not agree that at least some blacks voted for AA laws?

quote:
No. It's disingenuous and OFF-TOPIC to say that "only a small porition of your angst" which was when I said it TOPIC SPECIFIC, specific to "Race Relations"... it's disingenuous to talk about any other issues and where and with whom you have an axe to grind on those issues because I was talking about where your Misdirected Angst is ON THIS ISSUE and this issue only.

That you take issue with things relative to the War In Iraq is IRRELEVANT. We have not been talking about Iraq here and you did not make this thread to talk about Iraq. But thanks for admitting how you know that your Angst Is Misdirected.


Not all of my angst is directed at black people.
Racism is not my top priority.

Those are two statements of fact, can we leave it at that?

quote:
Explaining why you have misplaced and misdirected your the issues you have over laws/legislation when Whites by and large preside over the process to rectify what it is you would like to have overturned.

Do the math.


Wow. Did you realise that you actually answered a question just now?

Anyhoo, I will now do exactly what you've just asked of me, therefore, by definition, I will not be coppin out.

The answer is: I didn't misplace anything. Your question is loaded because it has the false assumption that I've misplaced my "angst". I'm using up very little "angst" here. I'm just trying to ask the board's opinion on some matters. I'm not, and I can't do anything else to you through my computer.

quote:
Okay. Your links to your internet conversations where you take Whites to task for the state of Race Relations via AA, etc.

Links to where you've told them: "It's gonna hurt your side more." Or some such...


http://www.iidb.org/vbb/showthread.php?t=169219

RED DAVE is white I think.

I don't think AA is going to hurt whites more.

quote:
Please... It's your analogy. Not mine. You presented yourself as the representative general for ALL WHITES. That was your pretense.


I never claimed to represent all whites...

quote:
I made it clear to you that if this is about a Truce or "Peace" Accord that you have to settle up with them White Folks to and, considering... in the same manner you feel compelled to settle up with us.


It's only a truce or peace with people who think like me. These people are most likely libertarians. They are most likely of many races. There might even be a black guy or two.

quote:
So where are the Whites Who Disagree with you? When and where did you settle up with them? Where were they in your Analogy?

Oh... I forgot. You get to represent ALL WHITE PEOPLE when you want to. You know, since that never came up before.


I don't represent all white people....

quote:
And what part of *(I'm) NOT* don't you take for an answer?


So are we done here?

quote:
Wrong question. What was the purpose of the generals meeting, again?


I don't know. The analogy doesn't work. I can't answer your question.

quote:
You said you were down.


I'm down with "a total and complete restructuring of this society. Bye, bye Constitution, See ya WHITE SUPREMACY! Everything. Start off fresh = make amends"

Those are YOUR WORDS, I'm "down" with that. Can you ELABORATE? Can you give more detail?

quote:
But you keep asking questions that tell a different story.


Questions don't tell stories. If I want to say something, I'll say it. I do not endorse any stories that you think that my questions tell.

No matter what story you think my question tells, I don't necessarily endorse it.

Tell me what the story is, and I'll tell you if I agree.

quote:
If you were serious then you wouldn't be all reflexive talking about "The Constitution is the law."


What does "you wouldn't be all reflexive" mean?

Can you re-phrase that somehow?

quote:
What are you holding on to it for?


I don't know what you mean by "holding on to it [the constitution]". I'm actually down with "Bye, bye Constitution".

quote:
You said you were down.


And one last time, for good measure,

I'm down with "a total and complete restructuring of this society. Bye, bye Constitution, See ya WHITE SUPREMACY! Everything. Start off fresh = make amends"

Those are YOUR WORDS, I'm "down" with that. Can you ELABORATE? Can you give more detail?
Z ZeusTKPB4
quote:
Originally posted by Nmaginate:
Because I, for one, am not attributing the things you say to you being "angry", "resentful", etc.


Neither am I. If it appars that I am, just remember that I'm not.

quote:
And "Special"....?


I've never seen the term "language of engagement" before. No philosopher that I know of has ever demanded that his/her opponent use a particular "language of engagement".

quote:
It's really a compulsive thing with you, huh?


I'm sorry if I just offended you. Did my explanation help? Are you still offended?

quote:
That's exactly what I'm challenging you to speak. Clear, intelligible English and not in some twisted dialect.


Is this sentence composed using clear, intelligible English?

quote:
I don't really understand your question.


Have you ever talked to another white person on this board who disagreed with you? Was race the topic of any of those conversations? If so, was the language used by the white person appropriate?

quote:
But, I don't remember this ever being a problem with anyone else, so it seems you are special after all. LOL!

What the hell... Here's one big ole thread for ya.

http://africanamerica.org/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/1551033683.../r/70070744#70070744


This is a quote of one of your posts:
"JONAS...

SILLY RABBIT!
............... Tricks Are For KIDS!!
I eat that kind of bullshiit (you're speaking) FOR BREAKFAST!!

As in ... I break that bull UP/DOWN FAST!!!
Like it's an unconscious exercise utilizing very little energy...

YOU ARE ALL SO VERY......... TRANSPARENT!!!"

Would you say that conversation is going well?
Z ZeusTKPB4
quote:
Originally posted by Nmaginate:
Because that's a ridiculous question and proposition for you to want some type of special treatment,


I would expect you to answer anyone's questions, not just mine. Likewise, I can and WILL answer any question even if I think it's ridiculous. One of the reasons I do this, is because it helps both people to understand each other better and to see where they've made logical errors or incorrect assumptions.

quote:
begging


I haven't begged for anything. I don't understand what you think begging is.

quote:
us to consider your ridiculous questions like legitimate ones.


Asking you to answer what you cosider to be ridiculous questions is not the same as asking you to consider the questions to be legitimate.

quote:
Proof that you keep speaking in dialect.


I don't think you're using the term dialect correctly: http://m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary&va=dialect

quote:
Sorry, we don't understand Kiddish.


That's strange. If you consider my ideas to be infantile, shouldn't you not only be able to understand them, but also be able to address them and show their flawed nature? A child can't put up a very solid argument, and easy to refute, why not do it?
FireFlyFireFlyA1
quote:
Originally posted by ZeusTKP:
quote:
Originally posted by FireFly:
quote:
Do you think that people like FireFly would be racist if it weren't for the current laws?


whaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaat? Eek
geesh... I just logged in briefly from work to read this ish!

Are you trying a divide and conquer tactic with me? I'm a big gurl and I can think for myself thank you very much... I don't need laws to tell me how to behave ... I work it out for myself. Do you have any idea how incredibly rude you are?

Listing atheists first and blacks/asians last was bad enough... Eek Roll Eyes and I'm an atheist! Roll Eyes Maybe you put typed the list in backwards, by mistake, there is no other justification for your stupidity and/or ignorance.

I give up! You've made your bed now lie in it.
Like I said over and over, what does what I think have anything to do with the actual topic of AA and Reparations... which I THOUGHT the topic at hand???
.


Just for reference:

If I ask someone: "Do you fly to work?"
I'm not saying "You fly to work."

Likewise: "Do you think ... FireFly ... racist."
I'm not saying "FireFly is racist"

I'm sorry that I've offended you.

P.S.

Is there anything that you care about more than ending racism?


what I genuinely care most about is the potential for planet earth to live up to its full potential. To me, that involves a cohesive, harmonious global society. And guess what 2 things would make that a vague possiblily? True equality - no racism, no imperialism, diversity instead of a monocultural mindset, and religious freedom. It's a bit difficult for mere humans, but it's a nice aspiration. In fact it is actually DO-ABLE if only.... well, you join the dots.
.
ps yes your comment was offensive... but you don't understand why. And the reason you don't understand, is one of the reasons that Equal Opportunities and Affirmative Action should never be dismantled. At least until aliens land from out of space with a new plan.
.
Z ZeusTKPB4
quote:
Originally posted by FireFly:
what I genuinely care most about is the potential for planet earth to live up to its full potential. To me, that involves a cohesive, harmonious global society. And guess what 2 things would make that a vague possiblily? True equality - no racism, no imperialism, diversity instead of a monocultural mindset, and religious freedom. It's a bit difficult for mere humans, but it's a nice aspiration. In fact it is actually DO-ABLE if only.... well, you join the dots.
.


I meant in more practical terms. What do you devote your energies to? What do you do with your life other than eating and sleeping?
Z ZeusTKPB4
quote:
Originally posted by FireFly:
how long have you got? Big Grin

If you're wanting a checklist of what good things I do for humanity, then I'm not gonna bite.


What if I bite and honestly answer my own question?

I honestly told you that fixing race relations does not take up a large part of my time, and you said:
"Listing atheists first and blacks/asians last was bad enough"

I didn't list atheists first. I didn't rank people.

Right?

So now you won't even say what you do during the day? Are you ashamed of your life?
Z ZeusTKPB4
quote:
Originally posted by FireFly:
addendum:

I spend most of my waking moments trying to UNDERSTAND.


I'm spending some of my free time trying to do that here. Obviously, with very little success.

Actually, my knowledge of the world IS moving forward. Every second my views are influenced by what I see. Every response, and especially lack of a response on this board adds up.
FireFlyFireFlyA1
quote:
Originally posted by ZeusTKP:
quote:
Originally posted by FireFly:
how long have you got? Big Grin

If you're wanting a checklist of what good things I do for humanity, then I'm not gonna bite.


What if I bite and honestly answer my own question?

I honestly told you that fixing race relations does not take up a large part of my time, and you said:
"Listing atheists first and blacks/asians last was bad enough"

I didn't list atheists first. I didn't rank people.

Right?

So now you won't even say what you do during the day? Are you ashamed of your life?

don't try to convince me you are merely insane with that comment... Roll Eyes 20

Now, to this comment:
"I didn't list atheists first. I didn't rank people".
Don't plead insanity on this one either ok?
In my simple mind... that ole 'list' of yours says "I put my individual spiritual belief system before everything else."

Well, hey, do that by all means. But there's a time and a place to disclose that... namely to YOURSELF noone else. tongue

If you fail to see that it was rude/ignorant/insulting/tragic/condescending/patronizing to even post that list AT ALL... then what can I say?

Well, there's stuff I could say, but... I'm feeling too mellow.

You may not realize that in Australia, Russians are part of cultural group on the list of people who actually BENEFIT from Equal Opportunity laws 'quotas'.
Z ZeusTKPB4
quote:
Originally posted by FireFly:
don't try to convince me you are merely insane with that comment... Roll Eyes 20


Do you feel that this level of sarcasm on your part is appropriate?

If you are not ashamed of you life as it relates to good things that you do for humanity, could you please tell me what good things you do for humanity?

quote:
Now, to this comment:
"I didn't list atheists first. I didn't rank people".
Don't plead insanity on this one either ok?
In my simple mind... that ole 'list' of yours says "I put my individual spiritual belief system before everything else."


Do you feel that this level of sarcasm on your part is appropriate?

From what you're saying, it seems that you misunderstood me. I do not, in fact, "put my spiritual belief systems before everything else". I'm not even sure what that means. How can I put a belief system "above" "everything else"? I don't stand on a corner and preach all day, if that's what you mean.

What I was talking about, was actually opressed groups in this country. These groups include atheists, gays, asains, blacks and many others. I think that atheists are more opressed than blacks, at least in some ways. For example, when people are asked if they would rather vote for a black president or an atheist, they chose black.

Obviously, you guys (on this board) will disagree with me about who is more opressed. But why is it offensive for me to be honest?

quote:
Well, hey, do that by all means.
No, thanks.
quote:
But there's a time and a place to disclose that... namely to YOURSELF noone else. tongue
OK, but I neither disclosed that (at least on purpose) nor do I think that.

quote:
If you fail to see that it was rude/ignorant/insulting/tragic/condescending/patronizing to even post that list AT ALL... then what can I say?


I see why your interpretation of what I said seemed offensive, but I don't see why you didn't confirm it with me first, unless you're simply trying to pick a fight.

quote:
Well, there's stuff I could say, but... I'm feeling too mellow.

You may not realize that in Australia, Russians are part of cultural group on the list of people who actually BENEFIT from Equal Opportunity laws 'quotas'.


Too bad for them. I think it will hurt them in the end.

And obviously, I don't agree with all Russians just like I don't agree with all whites. Some of the people that I hate the most are/have been Russians.
FireFlyFireFlyA1
quote:
If you fail to see that it was rude/ignorant/insulting/tragic/condescending/patronizing to even post that list AT ALL... then what can I say?


You are the one who listed your priorities. You put atheistists (a belief system???) before everything/everyone else, not me. That's your choice, but to do that and list African Americans last on an African American website is ... um... rude don't ya think? It may be that you're being 'honest' but it's also rude.

I am not trying to pick a fight with you - or anyone else.

It's not my 'interpretation', it just is.

I have tried to connect with you on a 'humanity' level (which is how I operate with everyone) but it hasn't opened up any doors of communication with you. I have not tried to be hostile with you. Quite the opposite.

Under the roar and fire of some posters you will find grains of truth. Ignore the fireworks and think about the content. You can learn a lot from this site if you choose to. I think it's obvious that the choice is yours, noone else's. Rise to the challenge.
.
Z ZeusTKPB4
quote:
Originally posted by FireFly:
You are the one who listed your priorities. You put atheistists (a belief system???) before everything/everyone else, not me.


I'm telling you now, straight from the horse's mouth, I did not.

quote:
That's your choice, but to do that and list African Americans last on an African American website is ... um... rude don't ya think?


Doesn't it matter what the list is? What I actually said/meant?

quote:
It may be that you're being 'honest' but it's also rude.


I'm sorry. I didn't mean to be rude. Yes, if someone didn't actually read what I wrote, then it would look rude. So I'm apologizing and, now, I've better explained what I meant.

quote:
I am not trying to pick a fight with you - or anyone else.


Do you accept my apology? Does my explanation make sense? Is it rude?
FireFlyFireFlyA1
ZeusTKP... we don't have a personal 'beef'. I see it that you were rude to the posters in general - not me - that's the issue.

You can be rude to me and I don't care... (although I WILL point it out tongue ) I am merely pointing out that when in African America... blah blah

Don't get caught in the defensive trap... unless you feel you need to be right. State your case but also be mindful - if you want to expand your own 'knowledge-base' - that true wisdom often comes more from considering and entertaining others' opinions which are different from yours, than from building a concrete case for your own. And that is in no way meant to be patronizing. Peace. Smile
NmaginateNmaginateA1
quote:
Originally posted by ZeusTKP:

Are you asking me to name names? Do you not agree that at least some blacks voted for AA laws?


That is not the issue. YOU CAN READ:

"When I said Blacks Didn't Make Those Laws... He'd figured he'd just say they did."

quote:
ON July 08, 2006 11:12 PM, YOU POSTED
quote:

Nmaginate: "Misdirected Angst... Blacks didn't make those laws (e.g. AA and anti-discrim. laws.)"


Zeus: Yes they did. At least partially. It's not like blacks have no power at all.


Name names... Give me a count. Whatever.

Tell me what Blacks made those laws. VOTING and drafting legislation is two different things. You know that. I know that. And you know I know that. Now what, besides not being able to be honest, is your problem?

This is a perfect example of why you're not ready.

___________________________________________
NmaginateNmaginateA1
quote:
Originally posted by ZeusTKP:

Not all of my angst is directed at black people.
Racism is not my top priority.

Those are two statements of fact, can we leave it at that?



Nope. You've basically said that Affirmative Action and Anti-Discrimination laws are your issues here. Issues that you place under the rubric of "RACE RELATIONS." When I pointed out the obvious that WHITE LEGISLATORS are the ones responsible for MAKING those laws you have such a problem with for some reason that throws you off.

It throws you off because what I've said is undisputably correct: Your angst with Black people over those laws is largely misplaced and misdirected. Not only are there Whites who vote... but the very legislators who crafted the AA and Anti-Discrimination laws you have an issue with are WHITE.

So, by and large, your issue is not with some portion of that Black 12% of the US population... your issue, properly placed, should be first and foremost with that portion of Whites who outnumber Blacks at least a couple of times over and, most importantly, those Whites who sit in seats of power who can pass bills and make laws with or without Black input or approval.

DO THE MATH!

quote:
The answer is: I didn't misplace anything. Your question is loaded because it has the false assumption that I've misplaced my "angst". I'm using up very little "angst" here. I'm just trying to ask the board's opinion on some matters. I'm not, and I can't do anything else to you through my computer.


A waste of cyberspace. Nowhere there did you establish how your issues here (call it an "angst" or not) are not misplaced. Again, you've basically said that Affirmative Action and Anti-Discrimination laws are your issues here. I've told you Blacks didn't make those laws.

You told a LIE before History and Reality and said "they did." In a word... "WOW!!"

quote:
I never claimed to represent all whites...


That's not what you said via analogy. It was you who made that an issue with one of those lame Talking Points. See how stupid they sound?



quote:
I made it clear to you that if this is about a Truce or "Peace" Accord that you have to settle up with them White Folks [too] and, considering... in the same manner you feel compelled to settle up with us.

It's only a truce or peace with people who think like me.


Ha! Ha!! Nope! You have to settle up with White folks who don't think like you. Make your analogy work, WHITE General.

quote:
I don't represent all white people....


Dude, you presented yourself as THE WHITE GENERAL. It's your analogy. Make it work.

You presented yourself as REPRESENTING ALL WHITE PEOPLE. That's your analogy. I can't help it if you don't like the implications of your own analogy. I tried to tell you how your underlying thoughts which produced it were flawed but you wanted to hold on to it.

Sucks to be you.

quote:
I don't know. The analogy doesn't work.


That's not what you said before...

quote:
Those are YOUR WORDS, I'm "down" with that. Can you ELABORATE? Can you give more detail?


It's clear you're not "down" with that. You keep having too many issues for that to be true.

I'm down with "a total and complete restructuring of this society. Bye, bye Constitution, See ya WHITE SUPREMACY! Everything. Start off fresh = make amends"



quote:
But you keep asking questions that tell a different story.


Questions don't tell stories. If I want to say something, I'll say it. I do not endorse any stories that you think that my questions tell.

No matter what story you think my question tells, I don't necessarily endorse it.

Tell me what the story is, and I'll tell you if I agree.

quote:
What does "you wouldn't be all reflexive" mean?


You professed to be down then you did the Knee-Jerk over the Constitution - as if the Constitution wasn't included in the total and complete restructuring.

If you're down with "Bye, bye Constitution" then there should be nothing for me to explain or elaborate on. Period.

I answered your question regarding what would "make amends." You have not paid for this information and education. I am not your 20 Questions answering station. You have to contribute something to the conversation.
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NmaginateNmaginateA1
quote:
I can and WILL answer any question even if I think it's ridiculous.


And??

quote:
One of the reasons I do this, is because it helps both people to understand each other better and to see where they've made logical errors or incorrect assumptions.


When it's come to the logical errors and incorrect assumptions you've made, particularly those couched in those idiotic, emotive terms... well, you've had a hard time dealing with that. You've missed too many meetings.

Admitting your addiction is half the battle. You've been in denial. "I don't have to use those terms." But you did and continued to even after being informed about them.

quote:
I don't understand what you think begging is.


When you use rhetorical questions with the intent to get someone to agree with you or adopt the type of approach you want them to have... YOU ARE BEGGING. It's clear your reasoning is not agreeable. So stop BEGGING for someone to agree with you

Why can't you answer a question even if it is ridiculous? = BEGGING

You're begging for us to answer you ridiculous questions even after it's been said over and over that your questions aren't worth considering. That's BEGGING.


quote:
Asking you to answer what you consider to be ridiculous questions is not the same as asking you to consider the questions to be legitimate.


But you don't get to determine what questions are legitimate when you're asking us, especially when you can't demonstrate (or haven't demonstrated) how they are legit. Spare me the BS.


quote:
That's strange. If you consider my ideas to be infantile, shouldn't you not only be able to understand them, but also be able to address them and show their flawed nature? A child can't put up a very solid argument, and easy to refute, why not do it?


Because a child like you will keep asking fraudulent questions because your core positions are fraudulent and, just as you've done over the emotive terms... You'll keep trying to defend a flawed, suffering and losing position.

There is absolutely no reason for any of us to do that. Again, YOU WANTED/WANT this conversation. Not us. There is nothing for us to gain. Period.

There is nothing in this for us. As such, this is a One Way deal. We're helping you out. Again, YOU want this conversation. No one here requested your audience. No one gives a damn what you think, much less what your infantile argument is, flaws and all.

That's why.

Easy to understand too. It's in puree form for you.
Z ZeusTKPB4
quote:
Originally posted by FireFly:
BTW: I think it's admirable that you're sticking around to tough it out.
You have no idea how many white males frequent this site who are dumb ass trolls. It makes me want to scream. Mad
Aside from an embarrassment, I call them '1k's', as in 1 kilobyte brain power. 20


I'm trying to reply to every single thing that's being said to me. I'm ignoring all the insults and just plain jibberish.
Z ZeusTKPB4
quote:
Originally posted by Nmaginate:
quote:
Originally posted by ZeusTKP:

Are you asking me to name names? Do you not agree that at least some blacks voted for AA laws?


That is not the issue. YOU CAN READ:

"When I said Blacks Didn't Make Those Laws... He'd figured he'd just say they did."

quote:
ON July 08, 2006 11:12 PM, YOU POSTED
quote:

Nmaginate: "Misdirected Angst... Blacks didn't make those laws (e.g. AA and anti-discrim. laws.)"


Zeus: Yes they did. At least partially. It's not like blacks have no power at all.


Name names... Give me a count. Whatever.

Tell me what Blacks made those laws. VOTING and drafting legislation is two different things. You know that. I know that. And you know I know that. Now what, besides not being able to be honest, is your problem?

This is a perfect example of why you're not ready.

___________________________________________


I don't know if any black politicians actually drafted any AA legislation. My guess would be yes, especially at the state and municipal level.

I thought we were talking about support for AA legislation, not just who actually drafted the bills.

Do you agree that people who elect representatives are responsible for the laws those representatives draft?

Do you or do you not support AA laws?
Z ZeusTKPB4
quote:
Originally posted by Black Viking:
I did answer one of your ridiculous questions...


Was it so hard to do?

Why can't you do it in principle? I can.

quote:
But, since you refuse to educate yourself, there's nothing more I can do for you.


Fine, I'll educate myself. Just give me some time, OK?

quote:
How quickly you double back over your tracks as soon as you know that you are responding to a White woman instead of a Black woman.


I didn't double back. I explained in more detail what I meant.

The black woman just stopped listening to anything I had to say.

quote:
You are a disingenuous liar.


What did I lie about?
NmaginateNmaginateA1
quote:
Originally posted by ZeusTKP:

I don't know if any black politicians actually drafted any AA legislation.


You got Selective Memory or something? As you can see I quoted you saying, "THEY DID." To hell with your "guess", this is all a matter of public record, Z. Having actual solid info. (or being familiar with the Historical Record) as to back up your position is a prerequisite, Z.

quote:
My guess would be yes, especially at the state and municipal level.


If you don't know then: WHY ARE YOU HERE?

Public Record will tell you when these laws went into effect. The Civil Rights Act of 1964 is a good point of reference. DO THE RESEARCH!

quote:
I thought we were talking about support for AA legislation, not just who actually drafted the bills.


STOP LYING!!

What part of Blacks didn't make those laws did you not understand? And which part of it did you CONFUSE to be mere "support" (which is problematic for you as well)?

Note: I took a glance at that forum and you didn't link me to a thread or a series of posts where you were addressing White posters, en masse, taking them to task for their possible support of AA laws et al.

quote:
Do you agree that people who elect representatives are responsible for the laws those representatives draft?


The Civil Rights Act of 1964. Who voted in those legislators who drafted that legislation? By no stretch of the imagination can you ever get whatever amount of Black voters to even come close to outnumbering the White voters who voted for those legislators.

And what part of The Voting Rights Act don't you understand?

Also, be sure to tell me how it is you absolve the actual legislators of responsibility/accountability? Legislators are elected to respond to situation with regards to the will of their constituents and/or their conscience. They can vote or sponsor legislation however they see fit.

Your questioning is ILLEGITIMATE. Your dodging, typical.
You are not ready.

quote:
Do you or do you not support AA laws?


I thought you were down. LOL!
I told you I support "total and complete" restructuring. And, seriously, there is no recovering from your LIE. You knew what I said but you thought you could get by with a LIE.

Now you're trying to rationalize it, spin away from it, DENY how your focus/angst is MISPLACED - i.e. MISDIRECTED - and change the whole topic.

DO THE MATH!

Whites were definitely 70% of the US pop. when these laws were adopted. Black folks around 12%. You can cut White folks up in a lot of ways but you still won't be able to find anything to justify your MISPLACED focus.
Z ZeusTKPB4
quote:
Originally posted by Nmaginate:
Nope. You've basically said that Affirmative Action and Anti-Discrimination laws are your issues here. Issues that you place under the rubric of "RACE RELATIONS." When I pointed out the obvious that WHITE LEGISLATORS are the ones responsible for MAKING those laws you have such a problem with for some reason that throws you off.


I don't have any problem with the fact that white legislators drafted those laws. This is one of the many things that you're imagining.

quote:
It throws you off because what I've said is undisputably correct: Your angst with Black people over those laws is largely misplaced and misdirected.


There's not much angst to speak of at all. The only problem I have with the people on this message board is that they refuse to discuss anything with me in a rational manner.

quote:
Not only are there Whites who vote... but the very legislators who crafted the AA and Anti-Discrimination laws you have an issue with are WHITE.


OK, and?

quote:
So, by and large, your issue is not with some portion of that Black 12% of the US population... your issue, properly placed, should be first and foremost with that portion of Whites who outnumber Blacks at least a couple of times over and, most importantly, those Whites who sit in seats of power who can pass bills and make laws with or without Black input or approval.


And?

quote:
A waste of cyberspace. Nowhere there did you establish how your issues here (call it an "angst" or not) are not misplaced.


What are you calling "angst"? Is trying to talk to someone "angst"?

quote:
Again, you've basically said that Affirmative Action and Anti-Discrimination laws are your issues here. I've told you Blacks did make those laws.


I never claimed that blacks made those laws.

Do you or do you not support those laws?

quote:
You told a LIE before History and Reality and said "they did."


No I didn't.

quote:
In a word... "WOW!!"


Calm yourself.

quote:
That's not what you said via analogy.

No, I didn't. You interpreted it that way. Regardles, I'm telling you now that I'm not claiming to speak for all whites. That's absurd.
quote:
It was you who made that an issue with one of those lame Talking Points. See how stupid they sound?


What "talking points"? When did I ever use such a phrase?

quote:
Ha! Ha!! Nope! You have to settle up with White folks who don't think like you.

So are you saying that I should unite all white people before I can talk to black people? Wow.
quote:
Make your analogy work, WHITE General.

quote:
I don't represent all white people....


Dude, you presented yourself as THE WHITE GENERAL.


No I didn't. You imagined that part.

Also, consider what you're saying:
"you: You said you were Superman, now fly around!
me: I never said that, that's absurd.
you: It's your analogy make it work!"

(Obviously, that's not literally what you're saying, but I think that if I didn't just point that out, you would call me a liar and tell me that you never actually told me to fly around, etc, etc, etc...)

quote:
It's your analogy. Make it work.


You have some absurd analogy in your head. Not only can I not defend it, nor do I agree with it, I don't even know what it is exactly.

quote:
You presented yourself as REPRESENTING ALL WHITE PEOPLE.

No.
quote:
That's your analogy.

No it's not. It's your twisted interpretation of it.
quote:
I can't help it if you don't like the implications of your own analogy. I tried to tell you how your underlying thoughts which produced it were flawed but you wanted to hold on to it.


"but you wanted to hold on to it."

ORLY?

What about:
"You're saying that it's a very bad analogy. Fine. I can try to re-phrase my position if you let me."
"I don't know. The analogy doesn't work. I can't answer your question."

You are the only one beating this dead horse. Can you please stop?

quote:
Sucks to be you.


You're entitled to your opinion.

quote:
That's not what you said before...


I have the ability of admitting error on my part.

quote:
It's clear you're not "down" with that. You keep having too many issues for that to be true.


But I am. You asked me if I am, I'm telling you that I am. Why did you even ask then?

And even if you think that I'm not, why can't you elaborate? Just finish your thoughts.

quote:
You professed to be down then you did the Knee-Jerk over the Constitution - as if the Constitution wasn't included in the total and complete restructuring.


What do you mean by "doing a Knee-Jerk over the Constitution"? I just asked you what you're going to replace it with. That implies the complete removal of such.

quote:
If you're down with "Bye, bye Constitution" then there should be nothing for me to explain or elaborate on. Period.


That's not true. Here are a couple of questions that come to mind:

So what happens to the Supreme Court of the United States? What happens to the rest of the government?

quote:
I answered your question regarding what would "make amends."


Where? Can you link or copy+paste?

quote:
You have not paid for this information and education. I am not your 20 Questions answering station.


Then why did you tell me in the first place and then ask me if I'm "down"?

quote:
You have to contribute something to the conversation.


I think I've answered nearly every single question from everyone on this board. Do you agree?
NmaginateNmaginateA1
quote:
Originally posted by ZeusTKP:

I don't have any problem with the fact that white legislators drafted those laws.



Then WHY ARE YOU HERE?

I have been clear that your focus/angst here is MISDIRECTED. That you don't have "any problem" with White legislators who drafted those laws speaks volumes and confirms how your focus/angst is MISPLACED. MISDIRECTED.

It's a hypocritical position. The one you have. Legislators didn't comply with the Black Political Consensus over the war in Iraq. And Black folks been voting for candidates for a long time, to no avail. Your argument is dead. Black folks didn't change in 1964 in terms of why they voted for certain legislators.
Z ZeusTKPB4
quote:
Originally posted by Nmaginate:
quote:
I can and WILL answer any question even if I think it's ridiculous.


And??


If I can, why can't you?

quote:
When it's come to the logical errors and incorrect assumptions you've made, particularly those couched in those idiotic, emotive terms... well, you've had a hard time dealing with that. You've missed too many meetings.

Admitting your addiction is half the battle. You've been in denial. "I don't have to use those terms." But you did and continued to even after being informed about them.


What terms does that include? When is the last time that I've used them?

quote:
When you use rhetorical questions with the intent


You assume what my intent is and are usually wrong.

quote:
to get someone to agree with you or adopt the type of approach you want them to have... YOU ARE BEGGING. It's clear your reasoning is not agreeable. So stop BEGGING for someone to agree with you


Anyway, I think I've said before that I won't use rhetorical questions. If I do, point it out BEFORE responding, and I'll re-phrase.

quote:
Why can't you answer a question even if it is ridiculous? = BEGGING

You're begging for us to answer you ridiculous questions even after it's been said over and over that your questions aren't worth considering. That's BEGGING.


Your definition of begging encompasses any question at all. I can't ask a question that you would not consider to be begging.

quote:
Asking you to answer what you consider to be ridiculous questions is not the same as asking you to consider the questions to be legitimate.


But you don't get to determine what questions are legitimate when you're asking us, especially when you can't demonstrate (or haven't demonstrated) how they are legit.[/QUOTE]

Again, I'm not trying to demonstrate that a question is legit. I'm just asking you to answer it regardless.

quote:
Spare me the BS.


You're imagining the BS, I can't do anything about that.

quote:
Because a child like you will keep asking fraudulent questions because your core positions are fraudulent and, just as you've done over the emotive terms... You'll keep trying to defend a flawed, suffering and losing position.


But you have no proof of this. You haven't actually answered my questions, how can you know what I'll do if you actually answer them?

quote:
There is absolutely no reason for any of us to do that. Again, YOU WANTED/WANT this conversation. Not us. There is nothing for us to gain. Period.


That's like saying that there's nothing to gain by not spewing insults at me. Technically it's true, but for some people, there is something to lose by losing your cool.

I guess it depends on who you are.

quote:
There is nothing in this for us. As such, this is a One Way deal. We're helping you out. Again, YOU want this conversation. No one here requested your audience. No one gives a damn what you think, much less what your infantile argument is, flaws and all.


Don't you think that you have anything to gain by having at least a cordial relationship with whites like me?
NmaginateNmaginateA1
quote:
The only problem I have with the people on this message board is that they refuse to discuss anything with me in a rational manner.


You have not been "rational."

When you tell a BOLD-FACED LIE:
"I thought we were talking about support for AA legislation..."

It's clear your issues aren't about how rational the discussion is. And again, this thread, as you presented it wasn't about a "discussion." And no one requested your audience and therefore no one has any reason to talk to you especially given how you can't be true to things you say.
Z ZeusTKPB4
quote:
Originally posted by Nmaginate:
You got Selective Memory or something? As you can see I quoted you saying, "THEY DID." To hell with your "guess", this is all a matter of public record, Z. Having actual solid info. (or being familiar with the Historical Record) as to back up your position is a prerequisite, Z.


Post a link. I'm pretty sure I was talking about SUPPORTING legislation, not drafting it. You are the one who started talking about drafting.

quote:
If you don't know then: WHY ARE YOU HERE?

Public Record will tell you when these laws went into effect. The Civil Rights Act of 1964 is a good point of reference. DO THE RESEARCH!


There are many more AA laws than the Civil Rights Act. But in any case, I've never brought up the subject of drafting laws.

Also, how do you know that no African Americans had any input on the drafts?

quote:
STOP LYING!!

What part of Blacks didn't make those laws did you not understand?


I don't consider drafting the laws to be the only part of making the laws. None of it can happend without voting.

quote:
And which part of it did you CONFUSE to be mere "support" (which is problematic for you as well)?

Note: I took a glance at that forum and you didn't link me to a thread or a series of posts where you were addressing White posters, en masse, taking them to task for their possible support of AA laws et al.


No. But I've never posted on any race-oriented board before this one. (And no, I'm not a supporting member at stormfront, har har)

quote:
The Civil Rights Act of 1964. Who voted in those legislators who drafted that legislation? By no stretch of the imagination can you ever get whatever amount of Black voters to even come close to outnumbering the White voters who voted for those legislators.


By no strech of the imagination did I ever claim that blacks were mostly responsible for AA.

quote:
And what part of The Voting Rights Act don't you understand?


???

quote:
Also, be sure to tell me how it is you absolve the actual legislators of responsibility/accountability?


I'm not.

quote:
Legislators are elected to respond to situation with regards to the will of their constituents and/or their conscience. They can vote or sponsor legislation however they see fit.


OK, but usually, they have a platform that they run on repeatedly. Do you actually want to debate this?

quote:
Your questioning is ILLEGITIMATE. Your dodging, typical.
You are not ready.


How can I possibly become ready if you guys refuse to speak to me? By what means would I ever become "ready" to speak to you? What school do I go to to learn your "language of engagement"? Even if I get a diploma in it, what's to stop you from still calling me not "ready"?

Why don't I need any special treatment from you, and I can even ignore multiple insults? Why don't the great philosophers of many skin colors need a language of engagement to talk to each other? Why can you even finish your own thoughts that you started?

quote:
I thought you were down. LOL!
I told you I support "total and complete" restructuring.


Do you support AA laws in the interim? Do you even care about AA laws one way or another?

quote:
And, seriously, there is no recovering from your LIE. You knew what I said but you thought you could get by with a LIE.


Saying something doesn't make it so, even if you capitalise it.

quote:
Now you're trying to rationalize it, spin away from it, DENY how your focus/angst is MISPLACED - i.e. MISDIRECTED - and change the whole topic.


By asking you if you support AA?

quote:
DO THE MATH!


There's no point in repeating a statement that makes no sense to me...

Why not elaborate? Use multiple sentences.

quote:
Whites were definitely 70% of the US pop. when these laws were adopted. Black folks around 12%. You can cut White folks up in a lot of ways but you still won't be able to find anything to justify your MISPLACED focus.


huh? Do you want like a matching program, where for every word here, I post 7 words somewhere else criticising whites? Would that work?
Z ZeusTKPB4
quote:
Originally posted by Nmaginate:
You have not been "rational."

When you tell a BOLD-FACED LIE:
"I thought we were talking about support for AA legislation..."

It's clear your issues aren't about how rational the discussion is. And again, this thread, as you presented it wasn't about a "discussion." And no one requested your audience and therefore no one has any reason to talk to you especially given how you can't be true to things you say.


No, I don't agree with your claim that I was initially claiming that blacks were mostly responsible for AA.

However, I'm willing, for the sake of argument, to entertain that I, infact DID argue that blacks were mostly responsible for implementing AA.

I have no idea why I thought that. Because I don't think that now.

So, let me recap:

It seems that I claimed that blacks were mostly reponsible for AA. This is not true. I don't claim that now. I'm at a TOTAL AND COMPLETE LOSS AS TO WHY I WAS CLAIMING THAT. I guess temporary insanity?

Oh well, I'm better now.

Let's move on?
NmaginateNmaginateA1
quote:
Originally posted by ZeusTKP:

If I can, why can't you?


Me... I can speak with knowledge about who drafted Civil Rights legislation and so-called AA laws with no quibbling about "I don't know [BUT]" or any of that.

When you can uphold the basic standards of knowledge and honesty then maybe you can find someone willing to discuss things with you. Since it's clear that you can't or rather won't do that (because it compromises your contradicted position)... Well, that's why I won't do as you claim you can do.

STOP BEGGING me for a conversation you're not ready to have.

quote:
Anyway, I think I've said before that I won't use rhetorical questions. If I do, point it out BEFORE responding, and I'll re-phrase.


Sorry. No handicaps allowed. Police your own posts.

quote:
I can't ask a question that you would not consider to be begging.


Maybe YOU can't but there are plenty of questions that can be asked in an intelligent manner.

quote:
I'm just asking you to answer it regardless.


Sorry. No handicaps allowed.

quote:
You're imagining the BS, I can't do anything about that.


When you can't ask intelligent questions and can't approach a conversation in a manner conducive to conversation but figure you should still be able to have the conversation just because you want it... That's BULLSH!T on Reality (forum) TV.

quote:
That's like saying that there's nothing to gain by not spewing insults at me.


Yeah... sck

Again, you are the one who WANTS a discussion. That means that, frankly, no one cares what your arguments are, etc., etc., etc.

The "why won't you answer my questions" bit is answered right there. NO ONE CARES what your arguments are.

quote:
Don't you think that you have anything to gain by having at least a cordial relationship with whites like me?


I did not stutter. Clearly, I don't care what your position or argument is. To me, it is immaterial. You've stated you're against AA, etc. I don't care why. It's not important to me. And no. I don't have anything to gain from a One Way 'conversation' with you.

I'll repeat that:
I don't have anything to gain from a conversation with you.

You simply have nothing to offer. You have shown how you have nothing to add to a conversation about RACE RELATIONS (your title). And, as I said from Post 1:

No one asked you if you cared. And, frankly, no one here cares.

You can take that as me speaking for myself (alone) or not. I also told you then that there is no such White Privilege here. Again, what you think isn't important to me and given how you can't answer things honestly in these exchanges we've had... Well, you prove my point. You have nothing to offer. Nothing to add. All you can do is subtract.
NmaginateNmaginateA1
quote:
Originally posted by ZeusTKP:

No, I don't agree with your claim that I was initially claiming that blacks were mostly responsible for AA.


What claim are you talking about? I made no claims. I pointed to what you said and questioned WHY ARE YOU HERE since your issue is suppose to be about your disagreement over AA and Anti-Discrimination laws.

That question still stands, whether you respond to it, in earnest, "for the sake of argument" or otherwise.

So what you can "move on" to is taking your issues up in relation to and in proportion to this new/renewed perspective you have.

So get your General over there to meet and settle up with the other WHITE General(s)...

quote:
Do you want like a matching program, where for every word here, I post 7 words somewhere else criticising whites? Would that work?


I've charged you with not having a "matching program" or not having the same type of focus and approach with Whites. You pretended like you had a "matching program" - that your focus here wasn't unique or MISPLACED/misdirected.

DO THE MATH.

Using your multiples... WHY ARE YOU HERE?
Using multiples in line with the reality of the number of Whites who favor AA in contrast to the proportion of the total number of Blacks... WHY ARE YOU HERE?

I did not stutter. I said nothing about the number of posts or words. I charged you with not taking the same approach, approaching Whites in the same manner you have approached us here. Clearly, you have not (from what you linked to).

It's clear by the way you've been thinking here that you haven't thought about approach Whites that way. Those are your issues on parade and full display.

I've made the point that, if anything, Whites are way more responsible for the AA laws you have problems with. The aggregate numbers alone show you that. But it's clear you haven't approached the issue that way.

It's also clear that you not only ask THE WRONG QUESTIONS but you come to assume the wrong things. Again, I made the point that WHITES would be mostly responsible via voting for AA (and drafting, passing the legislation, etc.).

I did that so you could get yourself pointed in the right direction; so your focus and issues with AA wouldn't have you here working under the assumptions you've had... with your issues being largely misdirected if not sorely misplaced.

White legislators today, just as it was then can make laws without Black approval. DO THE MATH. So if there's anybody you want to discuss AA with and impress upon them how you feel those laws are wrong or harmful or both, it should be with those who have the voting and legislative pull to pull your wishes off.

You are in the wrong place for that.
Last edited {1}
NmaginateNmaginateA1
quote:
What do you call [it] when the generals of two armies meet on the field and negotiate a peace treaty? Can we do that, or do you want an unconditional surrender on my part?


That was your analogy. Tell me how you presented yourself. The two armies represent what? You represent what?

Not being honest is highly counterproductive.
Black VikingBlack VikingA1
quote:
Originally posted by ZeusTKP:
quote:
Originally posted by Black Viking:
I did answer one of your ridiculous questions...


Was it so hard to do?

Why can't you do it in principle? I can.

What the hell are you talking about???

I did it... but you're asking me why I can't do it?

Keep on spinning... Roll Eyes

quote:
quote:
You are a disingenuous liar.


What did I lie about?

What did you lie about? Just how stupid do you think I am? I'm curious, because it's amazing to me that I have to spell this out for you.

Virtue said...

quote:
Originally posted by virtue:
and what you are going to offer to make it right.

You replied...

quote:
Originally posted by ZeusTKP:
Me, personally? I think I said this before, but racism is not my top priority. I care about whote opression of minorities in roughly this order: atheists, gays, asians, black/hispanic.

Then, Firefly called you on this nonsense...

quote:
Originally posted by FireFly:
You are the one who listed your priorities. You put atheistists (a belief system???) before everything/everyone else, not me.

Then you replied...

quote:
Originally posted by ZeusTKP:
I'm telling you now, straight from the horse's mouth, I did not.

Then, I said...

quote:
How quickly you double back over your tracks as soon as you know that you are responding to a White woman instead of a Black woman. You are a disingenuous liar.

Now, go ahead spinner... ask me again what you lied about. lol
KhalliqaKhalliqaA1
ZEUS

Zeus is the ruler of the Greek gods.

The ruler of a people that worshipped the wooly haired, black skinned Egyptians....

He is the son of Cronos and Rhea, in fact the only son of these two to survive to adulthood. Zeus had been hidden by Rhea so that Cronos would not swallow him like he had all of his other offspring; he had been warned that one of his children would eventually overthrow him.

The offspring of a jealous and enraged ancestry....

Rhea sent Zeus to the island of Crete where he was raised. Zeus eventually killed his father.

hmmm.... lesson: the offspring of jealousy rage and hate... is murder....

After he killed Cronos, he restored life to his brothers and sisters. He then drew lots with his brothers Poseidon and Hades to see who would become ruler of the various parts of the universe. Zeus won the draw and became the supreme ruler of the gods.


hmmm... the restoration of lineage through the murder of the father.... wait..

I think I heard this story before.... somehow snuffing out the image of the father in favor of the ... "son" who restores life and subsequently reigns...

interesting...

He is lord of the sky, the rain god. His weapon is a thunderbolt, made for him by the Cyclopes under the direction of Hephaestus, which he hurls at those who displease him.

In the midst of ruling the most sustaining aspects of the life cycle... he is respresented by the most destructive and non productive symbol within.... created by an entity that is narrow in vision.... used for destruction at his will...


He married a succession of spouses with whom he had many children including: Athena, The Fates, Ares, Apollo, Artemis, and Hermes. His last, and most well-known wife is Hera but he is famous for his many affairs.

womanizer... who creates

Athena- barren offspring created from mental anguish (hehe)

The fates- judgmental offspring too big for their own good (hehe)

Ares- an incestuous rapist....

Apollo- a big ole' guy who just looooved "music" and the "arts" ... *tweet*

Artemis- angry woman always on the prowl...

Hermes- Messenger boy and guide to the dead...



Big Grin

V
Z ZeusTKPB4
quote:
Originally posted by Black Viking:
What the hell are you talking about???

I did it... but you're asking me why I can't do it?

Keep on spinning... Roll Eyes


I'm not talking about answering ONE stupid question, I'm talking about answering all questions, in general. Stupid and not. Was it that difficult to type a few sentences to answer, what you CONSIDER to be a stupid question?

quote:
quote:
You are a disingenuous liar.


What did I lie about?

What did you lie about? Just how stupid do you think I am? I'm curious, because it's amazing to me that I have to spell this out for you.

Virtue said...

quote:
Originally posted by virtue:
and what you are going to offer to make it right.

You replied...

quote:
Originally posted by ZeusTKP:
Me, personally? I think I said this before, but racism is not my top priority. I care about whote opression of minorities in roughly this order: atheists, gays, asians, black/hispanic.

Then, Firefly called you on this nonsense...

quote:
Originally posted by FireFly:
You are the one who listed your priorities. You put atheistists (a belief system???) before everything/everyone else, not me.

Then you replied...

quote:
Originally posted by ZeusTKP:
I'm telling you now, straight from the horse's mouth, I did not.

Then, I said...

quote:
How quickly you double back over your tracks as soon as you know that you are responding to a White woman instead of a Black woman. You are a disingenuous liar.

Now, go ahead spinner... ask me again what you lied about. lol[/QUOTE]

OK. You got me. I lied.

I'm sorry. My mental capacity is limited (too much inbreeding), so I'm prone to getting confused.

I'm going to be MUCH more careful from now on.

I don't consider Atheism to be more important than people. I was wrong to claim so when I replied to Virtue. I realize now how stupid such a statement is. Atheism is a concept. How can I even place it above people? It's apples and oranges.
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