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quote:
By the way, before I'm banned or put on everyone's ignore list, what do you guys think of FireFly? She is a member here and I think is white and anti-racist. Do you agree with her views?


Yes, I believe Firefly to be white and an anti-racist; but from what I've read, Firefly's purpose here is vastly different from your's. She asks questions to understand the thoughts of the members and to clarify her own. She has yet [to my knowledge] to pose a question as a platform to defend racialist positions, e.g., the right to discriminate based on race.
quote:
Originally posted by virtue:


Why is it that you ignored all of the other responses to his questions, to focus on this one statement?


Pardon but I currently have a toddler and a baby in my kitchen. I planned on entering my own arguments regarding Zeus's statements later this evening.

I used that particular quote to state that I am the one that suggested he actually ask minorities these questions instead of having other whites blow smoke up his ass about what we supposedly think.

My two cents,
Tannenisis
quote:
Originally posted by blaqfist:


thanx alot tannenisis.. 17

you sure have some neat friends.


Again, I'm wondering what exactly is the problem. I am on another board with Zeus where the majority of the posters are white. When a minority thread comes up, I am usually one of the few posters even trying to say anything from a minority viewpoint. So I suggested that Zeus talk to actual minorities instead of having a chorus of other whites telling him what he wants to hear.
I don't know Zeus personally. Having been here and reading viewpoints often, I believe that there are many here that can effectively challenge his viewpoints and back it up with information from actual black people. That he will not get on that other board.

My two cents,
Tannenisis
quote:
Originally posted by Tannenisis:

Pardon but I currently have a toddler and a baby in my kitchen. I planned on entering my own arguments regarding Zeus's statements later this evening.


Softening...

toddler and baby .... huh?

smile... take care of yourself...

quote:
I used that particular quote to state that I am the one that suggested he actually ask minorities these questions instead of having other whites blow smoke up his ass about what we supposedly think.

My two cents,
Tannenisis


Understood...

FYI... I've been on that site for about a month...

Peace,
Virtue
quote:
Originally posted by virtue:

And Tannenisis( registered last year with accumulative of 13 posts...) invites a white man who is against AA and admits to coming here with an agenda....

As I've previously stated, on the other board I am one of the only minorities that posts in threads concerning race. So my suggestion was that Zeus challenge his own views by asking minorities directly, in effect, placing himself in the position that I am often in.
I don't think having a viewpoint challenged is a bad thing.

Further, I'm not interested in attacking anyone. What I am interested in is a debate. The people on this site are intelligent and well-versed enough to combat these arguments in ways many of those I debate with seem to think we as blacks are not capable of doing.

My post count may be low, but I read the threads here and talk about the posters here often. I have also recommended this site to other blacks looking for stimulating conversation.

My two cents,
Tannenisis
quote:
Originally posted by virtue:

Softening...

toddler and baby .... huh?

smile... take care of yourself...


Thanks. My boys are a handful, but they are wonderful.

quote:

Understood...

FYI... I've been on that site for about a month...

Peace,
Virtue


While IIDB is nice in many respects, I was floored when I initially joined by the threads on race. Other posters began PMing me to not leave the site because minority posters are run off on a constant basis. For that reason, I have stayed on and continue to debate race issues in the political forum. I have since seen many people that I respect leave the site because of those racist viewpoints.

My handle is tangiellis.

Having said that, what do you think of the site?

My two cents,
Tannenisis
quote:
Originally posted by virtue:
Sorry getting my boards mixed up...

On iidb I'm Asia.... I've only been there for a week...

But if you're there...ever hear of "The Ponderer's Guild?" which is now "Common Ascent?"


Peace,
Virtue


I've seen your posts in the last week. Interesting. Big Grin (edited: the posts I thought were yours belonged to someone else with a similar handle; apologies..but feel free to jump in the political forum!!)
No, I haven't heard of the other board. Would you recommend it as a place to go? I'm always looking for new boards.

Wow, are we off-topic or what?

My two cents,
Tannenisis
Last edited {1}
quote:
Originally posted by Tannenisis:
quote:
Originally posted by virtue:
Sorry getting my boards mixed up...

On iidb I'm Asia.... I've only been there for a week...

But if you're there...ever hear of "The Ponderer's Guild?" which is now "Common Ascent?"


Peace,
Virtue


I've seen your posts in the last week. Interesting. Big Grin
No, I haven't heard of the other board. Would you recommend it as a place to go? I'm always looking for new boards.

Wow, are we off-topic or what?

My two cents,
Tannenisis


Ummmm... yep... I'll send you a PM later today... I'm slouching at work.... gotta make good "face"....

I went to iidb for an even more mental workout...

But there's another poster here, Kai, who linked me to the Ponderer's Guild.... it used to be AN AWESOME place to go for Philosophical battling and what not...

but they dismantled recently and started back up as Common Ascent...

mostly OVER educated rebellioius,white boys..... some really smart white women.... and the sprinkling of choco dust...

ME Big Grin

I come here because this is the MOST MATURE and Intellectual BLACK site I've seen that's ACTIVE... there are other boards like this...

but...

not as active.... and increasingly less mature...plus I've got lots of energy...

ummm.... next time can you give us a heads up before you invite those who are ummmm "inquisitive"? It would help..

I can't speak for everyone.... but I'm generally sweet, but I guard my back door like a pit bull... I don't let up... and if its unnecessary it's good to know....

I'll be back online around 8PM....

ummm... yep running my mouth.... I lurve girl talk... so I'll end this so I won't continue off topic

Smile

onward and upward!

girl


Peace,
Virtue
quote:
Originally posted by blaqfist:
Tann...

Sweetty, your boy zues is not interested in "facts".


Many people who hold such views are usually not very well versed in the "facts" to begin with, hence why they hold them.
We can either do nothing in the face of such views or combat them with sound logic and information. I choose to do the latter.
quote:
Originally posted by virtue:
I come here because this is the MOST MATURE and Intellectual BLACK site I've seen that's ACTIVE... there are other boards like this...

but...

not as active.... and increasingly less mature...plus I've got lots of energy...

So I've noticed. I have been to many black sites and left for the very same reasons. I concur with the opinion on this board. I think it's fantastic.

quote:
ummm.... next time can you give us a heads up before you invite those who are ummmm "inquisitive"? It would help..

I don't plan on making it a habit. And I apologize for giving no notice before hand. In this case, Zeus issued a question to minorities on a site where they are lacking. That doesn't happen often.

I'll check out the site you mentioned.
FYI, I'm from Georgia also (southwest GA).
quote:
Originally posted by Kweli4Real:
Yes, I believe Firefly to be white and an anti-racist; but from what I've read, Firefly's purpose here is vastly different from your's. She asks questions to understand the thoughts of the members and to clarify her own. She has yet [to my knowledge] to pose a question as a platform to defend racialist positions, e.g., the right to discriminate based on race.


Yeah, I wasn't saying that we have the same views. I was just wondering whether there are any whites that you do agree with, and what you agree on.
I agree with her position that rather than striving for a "color-blind" society, we should strive for an egalitarian society where differences are recognized and celebrated.

I agree with her position that, historically as well as presently, Black folk are discriminated against solely because of the color of their skin and that white folk that mouth the "color-blind" mantra are merely attempting to consolidate and/or maintain their position of priviledge, even though they individually have done nothing to achieve the priviledge.

I agree with her that as long as white folk attempt to cling to their ill-gotten priviledge, they forfeit any claim to wanting a just society.

Now, if I have mis-interpreted Firefly's positions, I'm sure she will correct me.

And, BTW ... Firefly is not unique on this board in her being white and anti-racist. However, despite your [unspoken/implied] protestations, you sir are not anti-racist; rather, you represent the bricks and mortar of institutional racism. Namely, a pseudo-intellectual that cloaks his racism in anti-racist terms. You argue for the "right to discriminate [racially]" safely in the comfort of knowing that Black and Brown folk don't have the power to impact your priviledged life by exercising the "right" that you claim, but but for the accident of birth, have done nothing to earn.
quote:
Originally posted by Kweli4Real:
I agree with her position that rather than striving for a "color-blind" society, we should strive for an egalitarian society where differences are recognized and celebrated.

I agree with her position that, historically as well as presently, Black folk are discriminated against solely because of the color of their skin and that white folk that mouth the "color-blind" mantra are merely attempting to consolidate and/or maintain their position of priviledge, even though they individually have done nothing to achieve the priviledge.

I agree with her that as long as white folk attempt to cling to their ill-gotten priviledge, they forfeit any claim to wanting a just society.

Now, if I have mis-interpreted Firefly's positions, I'm sure she will correct me.


I was more interested in her position on reparations, I kind of guess the rest of that.

quote:
And, BTW ... Firefly is not unique on this board in her being white and anti-racist.
However, despite your [unspoken/implied] protestations, you sir are not anti-racist;


I never claimed to be anti-racist.

quote:
rather, you represent the bricks and mortar of institutional racism. Namely, a pseudo-intellectual that cloaks his racism in anti-racist terms.


I don't use anti-racist terms.

If you want my desire to eliminate laws of compulsion racist, that's your choice.

Do you think that the fact that I support freedom of speech for NAZIs makes me a NAZI?

quote:
You argue for the "right to discriminate [racially]" safely in the comfort of knowing that Black and Brown folk don't have the power to impact your priviledged life by exercising the "right" that you claim, but but for the accident of birth, have done nothing to earn.


You didn't answer my question: why should someone be forced to hire you? Why should someone be forced to share their priviledge with you?
quote:
Originally posted by Kweli4Real:
Now, if I have mis-interpreted Firefly's positions, I'm sure she will correct me.

lol you know me well!

Tick. Tick. Tick. Thank you for stating my thoughts accurately and so eloquently.

It's been busy thread while I've been sleeping!

Here are my thoughts on Reparations...


Although I read it occasionally, I've kept out of the discussion on Reparations because I have nothing tangible - and therefore in my mind - of value to contribute.

That doesn't mean I don't continue to think about it. But for all the ideas or solutions I try to contemplate, I can only conceive of desirable rather than than viable and equitable solutions.

I want to believe Reparations are achievable (actionable, not merely cerebral) and what I'm trying to do - perhaps like most people? - is to envisage what form will be the most equitable. And to try to imagine it in it's complete form... to cover all 'contingencies', to avoid it being attacked, abused, and dismantled... perhaps that's not the way to do it, perhaps it's better that it happens slowly and organically, piece by piece? I truly don't know, and I do think about it often.

To me the key requisite is that any solution (for want of a better word) not be short-term but capable of continuing effectiveness to be 'successful'. That is not impossible, however it also needs to be flexible, and capable of adapting to changing cultural or political circumstances without losing it's potentcy and protection, to be ongoing.

More later... I need to leave for work in half an hour.
First up, ZeusTKP, I kind of wonder why we - as in you and I - are having this conversation - it feels to me like some irksome discussion of 'what's right for other folks.'

It's beyond me to intellectualize about something that I have no true experience or deep knowledge of. Affirmative Action and Reparations, in particular, are profoundly about people, a human experience, history and healing, not an intellectual exercise I choose to toy with.

Sure I can throw up some of my thoughts but I feel they're meaningless (beyond posturing) unless I can offer some concrete ideas that are actionable. I'm honest enough to admit I can't. While I have a vision of sorts, I feel it's pointless if I can't also suggest the mechanics of it. But back to your question...


I'm in Australia, so I have limited knowledge of the practicalities, actualities, and outcomes of Affirmative Action - it's further down on my Afr Amer studies reading list.

So... my answer is broadstrokes. I'd have to say that any system of 'fairness-by-legislation' is legislation created to enforce fairness, where fairness only exists selectively.

Any system has the potential to be exploited or create dependancy - is that your the gripe about it ?? - however in my opinion it's more important to ensure equality of opportunity and potential for employment for everyone. To not penalize many because of the few who may exploit those rights.

To answer your question more directly, until I see no need for Affirmative Action by those who it directly affects, I'd deem it as 'necessary' - and as something quite separate to Reparations.

I hope that makes sense without being caustic. Reparations need a profound solution. A people solution... a healing, solution. A spiritual as well as financial solution. A selfless and intelligent grand vision. Beyond all that, it also needs a project management solution on a grand scale. Not every idea will suit everyone, or benefit everyone in the way it aims to.
.
In a word, No. I would not support the elimination of affirmative action or anti-discrimination laws, even if reparations for slavery was to be paid.---K4R

I agree with this. I also agree with the rationale subsequently offered.

What is being proposed here is the question: How much (payment) would it take to have equal opportunity and decisions based on merit taken out of the laws of the United States.

I am going against a basic rule to explain, or even discuss, racism to/with a European, but...

As alluded to by others, there is nothing in America's history to indicated this society will willingly make decisions based on merit, nor to cease penalizing on the basis of color.

The standing example is the compliance record of the States with the Voting Rights Act of 1965.

Thirteen State STILL (41 years later) REFUSE to comply the the law.

And...the federal government, the United States, fails AND refusing to prosecute that non-compliance.

The original number not complying was sixteen.

At that rate (roughly 20%) it will take another 205 years before all the CURRENT States will willingly comply with the requirement to allow, and enforce, equal access to the voting booth on the basis of 'race and color'.

And....please note that the color-construction of the United States is STILL based on 'black' and 'white'.


PEACE

Jim Chester

PEACE

Jim Chester
quote:
I was more interested in her position on reparations, I kind of guess the rest of that.


I couldn't speak to Firefly's position on reparations because she hadn't stated one. But reading her response I can imagine that anything she thinks would be dramatically different from your position because you two are coming from different places. She is trying to close [as much as possible] the racial divide by learning; whereas, you seek to maintain, or even increase the divide, to maintain your [unearned] priviledge.


quote:
If you want my desire to eliminate laws of compulsion racist, that's your choice ...

You didn't answer my question: why should someone be forced to hire you? Why should someone be forced to share their priviledge with you?


You have it twisted, the are no laws of compulsion with regards to race and discrimination, only laws of prohibition. For the most part public and private employers can hire whomever they wish for whatever reason they wish, so long as the reason is not one prohibited by law.

There is no law that requires a public or private employer to hire anyone, other than the "law" of prudent business practices that you stated earlier:
quote:
If someone hires inferior workers, then their company will suffer and will lose out to companies that hire the best workers regardless of race.


But yes, your desire to eliminate so-called "laws of compulsion" is racist when the only laws that you seek to eliminate are anti-discrimination laws.

quote:
What is being proposed here is the question: How much (payment) would it take to have equal opportunity and decisions based on merit taken out of the laws of the United States.


I beg to differ, JWC. The question Zeus is posing is: "How much is it going to take for Black folks to stop whining about discrimination?" Or, restated, "What price do you place on my being able to consolidate/maintain my [unearned] position of priviledge?"

To these questions I answer: "YOU CAN'T AFFORD IT." This is a country that MY parents and grand-parents and great-grands helped to build, despite the obstacles placed in their path. I find it offensive that some CHUCKIE-COME-LATELY would come to this country, sitting upon some unearned priviledge and attempt to present false choices as solutions.
I beg to differ, JWC. The question Zeus is posing is: "How much is it going to take for Black folks to stop whining about discrimination?" Or, restated, "What price do you place on my being able to consolidate/maintain my [unearned] position of priviledge?"---K4R

I can't disagree with that.

Clearly the (unstated) goal here is to 'keep us on the 'downside'.

There is a clear arrogance in the inquiry.

Why would well intended person even ask such a question?

How much will you take to let me keep repressing you?

DAMN!!!

I don't know why I even responded to this mentality.


PEACE

Jim Chester
I missed this post at first.

quote:
Originally posted by Kweli4Real:
With all due respect, this statement betrays your sophmoronic understanding of constitutionally protected free speech.


I'm not saying that the reason free speech is protected by the constitution is the same reason that I outlined.

quote:
But that is not unusual for those of your ilk.


What ilk is that?

quote:
You latch onto the psuedo-scholarly talking points of "racialists"


What talking points are that?

quote:
posing as race-neutral libertarians; but fail to understand/confuse the argument.


Care to elaborate? How am I not race-neutral?

In my world, everyone could wear a mask and be exactly the same color. Assuming that the wrongs of the past have been made right, what's so bad about this color-blind society?

quote:
While one COULD advance a 1st Amendment association argument for race-based discrimination, the free speech argument doesn't even make sense. Roll Eyes


I'm not invoking the 1st amendment, I'm actually justifying the 1st amendment.

quote:
I see that your objection to interference in private business is merely a picking and choosing of legitimate expressions of the public will, based in white [male] priviledge. Consumer protections, e.g., contracts, environmental protections and health codes, all clearly touch on your life, and upholding them is to your benefit;


I never said that I'm for consumer protections, please don't put words in my mouth. Likewise, I said, I'd have to elaborate on health codes. I'm actually against them.

If you don't think that the environment is a special case like national defense, then please explain yourself.

And please explain to me how upholding contracts benefits only "white [male][s]".

Finally, explain to me why the things you listed touch my life but discrimination laws do not? Everyone would be as free to discriminate against me as they would against you. If reparations were paid, and control of many major coroporations were given to black folk, they would be just as free to discriminate.

And please don't scream that these kind of reparations are unrealistic. That's a different issue. I just want to get an answer as to how is it justifiable to restrict the actions of people if they harm no one. (Also, consider the Jews. They have been able to successfully sue for reparations.)

quote:
whereas, your inability to see anti-discrimination laws directly benefiting you prevents your advocacy.

Can one provide a better example of an argument based in white supremacy/priviledge?


You've all but flat-out called me a member of the KKK. Fine. This is your board, and I'm not going to lose sleep over it. But logic is logic, you can't wish it away. I would appreciate it if you would not dissmiss my arguments because my pasttime happens to be burning crosses, but point out the actual logical flaws.
quote:
Originally posted by FireFly:
First up, ZeusTKP, I kind of wonder why we - as in you and I - are having this conversation - it feels to me like some irksome discussion of 'what's right for other folks.'


Why do you say that? I'm asking them what reparations would be enough to erase the past. It might be that nothing can. If that's the case, I just want them to say that. But they are too mad to even say that. They are just totally pissed off, period.

quote:
It's beyond me to intellectualize about something that I have no true experience or deep knowledge of.


Words like "intellectualize" and "deep" knowledge are foreign to me, I'm afraid. To me, somethings is logical or it's not.

quote:
Affirmative Action and Reparations, in particular, are profoundly about people, a human experience, history and healing, not an intellectual exercise I choose to toy with.

Sure I can throw up some of my thoughts but I feel they're meaningless (beyond posturing) unless I can offer some concrete ideas that are actionable. I'm honest enough to admit I can't. While I have a vision of sorts, I feel it's pointless if I can't also suggest the mechanics of it. But back to your question...


I'm in Australia, so I have limited knowledge of the practicalities, actualities, and outcomes of Affirmative Action - it's further down on my Afr Amer studies reading list.

So... my answer is broadstrokes. I'd have to say that any system of 'fairness-by-legislation' is legislation created to enforce fairness, where fairness only exists selectively.


What % of the Australian population is African-Australian? How did they get there?

quote:
Any system has the potential to be exploited or create dependancy - is that your the gripe about it ??


No.

quote:
- however in my opinion it's more important to ensure equality of opportunity and potential for employment for everyone. To not penalize many because of the few who may exploit those rights.

To answer your question more directly, until I see no need for Affirmative Action


When do you think that will be? What would it be like then?
quote:
Originally posted by James Wesley Chester:
In a word, No. I would not support the elimination of affirmative action or anti-discrimination laws, even if reparations for slavery was to be paid.---K4R

I agree with this. I also agree with the rationale subsequently offered.

What is being proposed here is the question: How much (payment) would it take to have equal opportunity and decisions based on merit taken out of the laws of the United States.

I am going against a basic rule to explain, or even discuss, racism to/with a European, but...


If you have such a "rule", that means that you don't think that you can gain anything from negotiating with the "enemy". Is this the case? Do you trully do not want to have any dialog and just want fight it out?

quote:
As alluded to by others, there is nothing in America's history to indicated this society will willingly make decisions based on merit, nor to cease penalizing on the basis of color.

The standing example is the compliance record of the States with the Voting Rights Act of 1965.

Thirteen State STILL (41 years later) REFUSE to comply the the law.

And...the federal government, the United States, fails AND refusing to prosecute that non-compliance.

The original number not complying was sixteen.

At that rate (roughly 20%) it will take another 205 years before all the CURRENT States will willingly comply with the requirement to allow, and enforce, equal access to the voting booth on the basis of 'race and color'.

And....please note that the color-construction of the United States is STILL based on 'black' and 'white'.


Do you realize that I'm agreeing with you on this particular topic? I think that the government must be completely impartial.
quote:
Originally posted by Kweli4Real:
I couldn't speak to Firefly's position on reparations because she hadn't stated one. But reading her response I can imagine that anything she thinks would be dramatically different from your position because you two are coming from different places. She is trying to close [as much as possible] the racial divide by learning; whereas, you seek to maintain, or even increase the divide, to maintain your [unearned] priviledge.


What % of my "privilege" is unearned would you say? Everything? Down to the shirt on my back? I just want to know what you think.

quote:
You have it twisted, the are no laws of compulsion with regards to race and discrimination, only laws of prohibition. For the most part public and private employers can hire whomever they wish for whatever reason they wish, so long as the reason is not one prohibited by law.


The discussion about compulsion vs prohibition will be pretty long. Would you mind if we postponed it or put it in a different thread?

quote:
I beg to differ, JWC. The question Zeus is posing is: "How much is it going to take for Black folks to stop whining about discrimination?" Or, restated, "What price do you place on my being able to consolidate/maintain my [unearned] position of priviledge?"

To these questions I answer: "YOU CAN'T AFFORD IT." This is a country that MY parents and grand-parents and great-grands helped to build, despite the obstacles placed in their path. I find it offensive that some CHUCKIE-COME-LATELY would come to this country, sitting upon some unearned priviledge and attempt to present false choices as solutions.


Do you see anything wrong with making my posts for me and then replying to them?

Again, if you can't/don't want to EVER forgive white people, just say so.
quote:
Originally posted by James Wesley Chester:
I can't disagree with that.

Clearly the (unstated) goal here is to 'keep us on the 'downside'.

There is a clear arrogance in the inquiry.

Why would well intended person even ask such a question?


Keep in mind that there are lot's of different people with different backgrounds who think differently from you.

quote:


How much will you take to let me keep repressing you?

DAMN!!!

I don't know why I even responded to this mentality.


PEACE


Really?

quote:


Jim Chester
The problem you're having here, Zues... is that you're trying to mix apples and oranges. Reparations is about the past. Anti-Discrimination law and Affirmative Action are about the present and future. One can't cancel out the other, because one has nothing to do with the other.

If you want' to argue the merits of either one, you'll find many people here willing and able to do so. But, no one is going to let you muddy the waters by treating them as if they are the same thing.
quote:
Originally posted by Black Viking:
The problem you're having here, Zues...

(Do you and blaqfist spell "Zeus" as Zues on purpose?)
quote:
is that you're trying to mix apples and oranges. Reparations is about the past. Anti-Discrimination law and Affirmative Action are about the present and future. One can't cancel out the other, because one has nothing to do with the other.

If you want' to argue the merits of either one, you'll find many people here willing and able to do so.

(I'm not as optimistic)
quote:
But, no one is going to let you muddy the waters by treating them as if they are the same thing.


Anyway, I see what you're saying, but if I ask "what's the point of AA?" wouldn't people just say "to right the wrongs of the past". Isn't that reparations?
ZeusTKP I'll respond to your questions later...

As a non-African American, before you immerse yourself in the rest of the discussion, I'd like to suggest/ask (whichever you find less offensive) you do one thing... Smile

Take a quiet moment and ask yourself - honestly - which is your core motivation in seeking and discussing your solution to the two seperate issues of AA and Reparations? Is it to find a solution for African Americans themselves; is it to find an equitable solution on a national scale; is it to find a personal solution; is it a desire to project manage; or maybe it's a combination?

Once you've answered that honestly, and have absolute clarity in your own mind, you may find less need for 'logic for logic's sake', and hopefully a greater empathy, and openness to others' perspectives.
.
quote:
Take a quiet moment and ask yourself - honestly - which is your core motivation in seeking and discussing your solution to the two seperate issues of AA and Reparations? Is it to find a solution for African Americans themselves; is it to find an equitable solution on a national scale; is it to find a personal solution; is it a desire to project manage; or maybe it's a combination?


lol 20 20 lol

Let me take this one ... lol

quote:
My core motivation is to confront and intellectual whip a bunch of negroes, thus demonstrating for all the superiority of the great white race.


lol 20 20 lol

The only reason this guy can be taken seriously is as a reminder.
quote:
Originally posted by ZeusTKP:
quote:
Originally posted by Black Viking:
The problem you're having here, Zues...

(Do you and blaqfist spell "Zeus" as Zues on purpose?)

It's called a typo... don't take it so personally. Roll Eyes

quote:
Anyway, I see what you're saying,

No, I don't think you do. But, that's OK, I didn't really expect you too. Smile

quote:
but if I ask "what's the point of AA?" wouldn't people just say "to right the wrongs of the past".

No. Who says that? And have you ever actually asked someone? A Black someone?

Before you answer that, don't try to say that you did so on this thread. You started out by summarily dismissing the need for AA. You never asked what purpose it serves for us, or why we think it's justified.

Now, I'll take a moment to answer the question you did not, but should have, asked... which is, "What's the point"?

* The point of AA and Anti-Discrimination Law is to resolve current practices of institutional racism.

* The point of Reparations is redress for past crimes against humanity. In this case, specifically African humanity.


quote:
Isn't that reparations?

See above.
quote:
Originally posted by Black Viking:
No, I don't think you do. But, that's OK, I didn't really expect you too. Smile


you're entitled to your opinion.

quote:
No. Who says that? And have you ever actually asked someone? A Black someone?


I didn't claim that any black person ever directly said that to me. But I can't rule it out. I can't always know the race of the person I'm talking to on the 'NET.

So to answer your questions: I'm not sure, yes, maybe.

quote:
Before you answer that, don't try to say that you did so on this thread.


Unfortunately, I'm going to say exactly that.

quote:
You started out by summarily dismissing the need for AA.


No. I said that I don't agree with it, but I'm open to actual discussion. The most I've gotten so far is people calling me a clansman.

quote:
You never asked what purpose it serves for us, or why we think it's justified.


"or why we think it's justified"

Me:
"Why should anyone be forced to associate with anyone else?"
"Why must a shopkeep give employment to anyone who asks for it?"
"You didn't answer my question: why should someone be forced to hire you? Why should someone be forced to share their priviledge with you?"

I haven't received a response. It seems it's beneath you to even respond to such an audacious question. Prove me wrong.

quote:
Now, I'll take a moment to answer the question you did not, but should have, asked... which is, "What's the point"?

* The point of AA and Anti-Discrimination Law is to resolve current practices of institutional racism.


See my questions above.

quote:
* The point of Reparations is redress for past crimes against humanity. In this case, specifically African humanity.


How does "white priviledge" fit in with AA and reparations? Wouldn't removing it be part of making reparations? Or must any extra wealth that white people have at any time for any reason always be turned over to you?
quote:
Originally posted by Kweli4Real:
lol 20 20 lol

Let me take this one ... lol

quote:
My core motivation is to confront and intellectual whip a bunch of negroes, thus demonstrating for all the superiority of the great white race.


lol 20 20 lol

The only reason this guy can be taken seriously is as a reminder.


You're a nothing short of an intellectual giant, Kweli. My white robe trembles in your presence. td6
quote:
Originally posted by ZeusTKP:
quote:
Originally posted by Black Viking:
No. Who says that? And have you ever actually asked someone? A Black someone?


I didn't claim that any black person ever directly said that to me. But I can't rule it out. I can't always know the race of the person I'm talking to on the 'NET.

So to answer your questions: I'm not sure, yes, maybe.

Well then... we've solved that haven't we. Big Grin

quote:
quote:
You started out by summarily dismissing the need for AA.


No. I said that I don't agree with it,

And the difference, in your view, is what?

quote:
but I'm open to actual discussion. The most I've gotten so far is people calling me a clansman.

That's not true. K4R has addressed you point by point. There is not a lack of discussion going on here. It's a lack of understanding.

quote:
Me:
"Why should anyone be forced to associate with anyone else?"
"Why must a shopkeep give employment to anyone who asks for it?"
"You didn't answer my question: why should someone be forced to hire you? Why should someone be forced to share their priviledge with you?"

All of these questions show a profound lack of understanding of what institutional racism is.

quote:
The only response I got was getting called a "racialist".

That's not true either. Maybe being called a racialist and being alluded to as a clansman are the only parts of this thread you remember. I suggest you go back and read K4R's posts again.

quote:
quote:
Now, I'll take a moment to answer the question you did not, but should have, asked... which is, "What's the point"?

* The point of AA and Anti-Discrimination Law is to resolve current practices of institutional racism.


See my questions above.

Start with institutional racism. Wikipedia is not my favorite source to use, but it's a start.


quote:
quote:
* The point of Reparations is redress for past crimes against humanity. In this case, specifically African humanity.


How does "white priviledge" fit in with AA and reparations? Wouldn't removing it be part of making reparations?

Huh??? I never said anything about White privilege. That's something else entirely.

quote:
Or must any extra wealth that white people have at any time for any reason always be turned over to you?

Now what are you talking about? No one said anything about wealth. What are you projecting now?

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