quote:
Originally posted by Black Viking:
That's not true. The vast majority of everything we buy to survive comes from private companies. Where do you buy your gas from? Do you buy it from the government, or a private company?
That still doesn't mean that you're forced to buy gas from 1 particular company. I don't think that there's anything that you need to survive that you can't get from a non-racist company.
quote:
Because the consumer is the only reason the private company exists at all.
And?
quote:
That sounds good on paper. But it takes for granted that the purchase was voluntary.
The reality is this...
The only way for that to be reasonable is if there other options. So, in order to not buy something from a racist company... there must be non-racist companies with the same product, at the same price, with the same level of quality and service. Otherwise, there is a disconnect... a "disadvantage". This is why segregation was a failure. Separate is not equal.
What do you mean by "The only way for that to be reasonable"?
It is true, no matter what the situation is, that people only enter voluntary contracts if both parties benefit. Why esle would they enter the contracts?
Anyway, why must there be a law forcing companies to provide the same service to everyone?
If, for example, there was a racist shoe maker who made the best shoes in the country and sold them very cheaply, why must that shoe maker be forced to sell the shoes to everyone?
By your logic, it would be better if the shoe maker didn't make any shoes at all. But that's an overall loss of productivity.
quote:
quote:
And finally, if a company is forced to hire someone, the consumer will not necessarily benefit. In fact, it's more likely that the cost of labor will be increased and therefore the cost of the product for the consumer will be increased.
Why is that more likely? When has that ever happened?
It is more likely because the company will know best what workers it needs. If you ever tell a company what to do, it will probably be worse for the company.
quote:
OK, this comes from your juvenile understanding of business.
...
quote:
It is in the community's, and the business's, best interest for every business to do as much business as possible. To refuse service to any segment of the population that is able to pay for it is a reduction in revenue, circulatory funds, and taxes. No business that wants to stay in business will turn away a Black consumer's money. That would be stupid.
Even if it's stupid, why not let a company do it? It's stupid to drink alcohol, but we still let people do it, for example.
quote:
Therefore, for reasons I already stated, they owe that Black consumer an opportunity to participate in that business structure.
I still don't understand why anyone owes anything in this situation. It may be in the company's interest to do business, but why does it HAVE to do business with anyone?
Bottom line: either contracts are voluntary or they're not.
quote:
If you don't think that's the case, then you haven't been paying attention. Where do you think AA came from?
I think that AA was created to repay for government racism of the post-slavery, pre-civil rights era.
quote:
It was born out of resentment and hostility that resulted from centuries of unfair business practices.
That resentment was justified.
quote:
AA did not come from liberal White people who were trying to make everything right. AA is a bone thrown from White supremacy to keep us from burning this whole thing to the ground.
I don't agree. I don't think you can burn it all down to the ground. But that's a whole other discussion.
quote:
Power concedes nothing without demand. AA exists because we demanded it... period. And there was enough "resentment and hostility" behind that demand that the White elite gave it to us.
That's fine. I have nothing against you getting your way by force. But that's a double-edged sword, and I think you'll get burned in the end.
quote:
For you... probably. AA is not about you.
Yes, but you're living in the same country with me and people like me, and a lot of other people who are not as nice as I am.
quote:
quote:
and I don't think that racism will be prevalent even without AA.
Huh???
Believe it or not, but I don't think that companies will be racist even if you get rid of AA. Exactly because it is stupid to be racist in business. If companies miss out on business because they are racist, other companies will pick up that business and overtake them.
quote:
Actually they don't have that right. But, I get your point.
So, tell me... where did they get that so called "right" from?
It's not really a "right", it's just an agreement between everyone in society to leave each other alone and let people freely make contracts with each other. Such an arrangement is better for everyone involved.
quote:
Now your going to make exceptions?
Yes
quote:
Why?
Because that's the way the world is. You have to make an exception for the military, for example. That's what defines a country, otherwise you have feudalism.
But let's ignore the exceptions for now. That's a separate thread.
quote:
quote:
If someone refuses to do business with someone else, he/she is not harming that person.
Really?
Yes
quote:
So, where do you buy your gas from again?
If you're in the middle of the desert and you're out of gas, and the only gas station around won't sell you gas, then you have to ask yourself how you got in this situation in the first place.
What if there was no gas station there at all? Would you still drive out into the middle of the desert?
What if you knew that the owners are racist and wouldn't sell you gas, would you still drive out?
And how did people manage to survive before there was gasoline?
Also, let's say a racist scientist creates hydrogen fuel. Why does he have to sell it to you? What's the difference between that and gas?
quote:
If they wouldn't sell it to you, wouldn't that be to your "disadvantage"?
It's their gas. It would be to my disadvantage if they didn't give it to me for free also. If I can't force them to give it to me for free, why can I force them to sell it at a certain price?
quote:
You're joking right? There is a reason why boycotts work.
I'm not joking, you're just using a different definition of "harm". There's a difference between harming a car dealership by torching their cars and "harming" it by boycotting it. Don't you agree?
If you torch their cars, then you use force against them and deprive them of their wealth. If you boycott them, they still have their cars, you didn't deprive them of anything, you didn't steal or destroy anything.
The business EXPECTED that you would buy their product. But you don't HAVE TO buy anything. If someone spent all their money making a product that nobody wants, that's their own damn fault. No one should be forced to buy it.
quote:
No. Again, these private companies exist to serve us..
Ummmm... You're kidding, right?
These companies are people too. You're saying that there are people who exist to serve you. Does this remind you of anything???
quote:
not the other way around.
It's not either of those ways. No one exists to serve anyone else. People are free, at least in this country, at least for now.
quote:
We pay for their service.
And they work to make the service.
" at me. So, since you didn't actually use any words, I had to guess as to what you meant. I thought that you got offended because "you people" is what some people say to blacks. I said "you people", I'm embarassed to say, on purpose because I was getting a but frustrated.
Sorry, sap... I told you:
