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What do you think the state of race relations will be in the United States in 2103? Will things improve to the point where race will become less and less relevant, or even irrelevant? Or will tensions re-ignite and open racism become even more prevalent?

What do you think?



Now is the time to make real the promises of Democracy.

© MBM

Original Post

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There's a great potential for change due to the changing demographics. However, "those in power" will undoubtedly try to stay in power as long as they can regardless of the numbers game - a la White South Afrikanners.

Nothing will change unless we start openly dealing with it and seeing it as RACE RELATIONSHIPS and talk about it in terms that we would any relation-ship.

Power dynamics; Truth and reconcilation;
GIVE & TAKE ....... ROLES .... EQUALITY ....
AUTONOMY/INDEPENDENCE ... RESPONSIBILITY
Reply to MBM:

"What do you think the state of race relations will be in the United States in 2103? Will things improve to the point where race will become less and less relevant, or even irrelevant? Or will tensions re-ignite and open racism become even more prevalent? What do you think?"

From the onset, blacks are not in the position to predict when race relations will improve because they are not responsible for its disintegration. The state of race relations in America hinges upon the thinking, perceptions, and behavior of whites. Therefore, only they can worsen, improve, and/or predict what the state of race relations will be in the coming years. In fact, I support reserach which posits racism (white supremacy) as an integral part of the European cultural personality or "ethos." Therefore, "racism" (white supremacy) is inseparable from their cultural genes. When we view Europeans as a cultural entity and examine their historical behavior toward 'non-whites,' their behavior reflects an inability to have positive exchanges with people external to their culture. Women and minorities will continue to be the targets of racism and sexism until Europeans, specifically, European males, seek treatment for their cultural psychopathological condition.

[This message was edited by Rowe on June 07, 2003 at 11:28 AM.]
I'll have to agree with Norland, here, at least to a point. It is by no means clear that that we will be around in 2103.

If we do make it that far, it seems to me that it will only be as a result of rather far reaching changes in the way people relate to one another.

"La vida te da sorpresas...
Sorpresas te da la vida...",
¡Ay, Dios!

Rubén Blades---Pedro Navaja


Plowshares Actions
The Nuclear Resister
School of the Americas Watch


Yeah, I'd bet that we will not be here in 2103!! LOL!! Anyway I know I will not be personally!!!

That said, this topic has been stated as such that the way we see race today, has always been this way. This is not true at all. The way we perceive race in America today did not begin until around the late 1600's.

From about the mid 1800's up until the end of Reconstruction, perhaps 10 years after, there was yet a different perception. As quiat as it's kept, there was a mulatto "race", though not seen as white, they were seen differently than were "blacks". They were still slaves, the one's that were not free, but they yielded a higher price. They were often skilled and many could speak a language other than English. Some free mulattos even held slaves!!! Many of these people prospered during Reconstruction. When the Jim Crow laws of the South started to take affect between 1885 and 1890, this started to change. The colour line was shfited, hence the Plessy v. Furguson Supreme Court descision in 1896. In the US Census of 1880, enumerators were told to record people that they perceived to be mixed, whether it be skin colour and/or phenotype, as mullato. In 1890, it went as far to the degree: mulatto, quadroon, octoroon. In 1900, Black was only used. 1910 and 1920, mulatto. Since 1930 it has been black until that is 2000 when people were afforded the opportunity to classify themselves as they saw fit. The 1920 Census, a category was created for Indians/Pakistanis: Hindu, by 1930, they where white. Since 1980, there is an Asian Including the Indian Sub-continent category. Also 1980 was the first time the "Hispanic" category was used.

What does all this have to do with race in 2103?? Perceptions change. I think even white Americans racial perceptions have changed a little over the last 20 years. With the influx of "Hispanics" from countries who do have different racial perceptions than do Amercians, it will likely change. Couple all this togther with the rise of "interracial" raleationships, and peoples' perceptions will change. Yes America will more than likely get browner, not just because of the influx of non white immigrants either.

Ebony magazine even stated that by 2050, people of partial African descent will no longer regard themselves as black or African American. So One Drop will eventually die out!! Albeit a rather slow death.

Does this mean there will be no racism by 2103. Hell no!! Some form of racism will always exist, but it will be different. Humans have always found a reason to discriminate against other Humans. This will not change, unfortunately. What I'm trying to say is that people will NOT have the same racial perceptions today 100 years from now, IMHO.

Yes I know the "nationalist" contingent on this forum will rail against this and say "I am insecure, I don't know who I am, etc". What I have posted is all the truth and I can prove the historical aspects of this as well as the scientifical aspects and as well as where the current trends are leading to. This is just a threat to their agenda.

Instead of the usual insults, prove me wrong with specifics, not Afrocentric rhetoric, or simply ignore it!!!

Wink

Reference on the Colour Line:
A Brief History on the Colour Line

[This message was edited by IndependentMan on June 04, 2003 at 10:41 AM.]
quote:
Originally posted by Rowe:
Reply to MBM:

"What do you think the state of race relations will be in the United States in 2103? Will things improve to the point where race will become less and less relevant, or even irrelevant? Or will tensions re-ignite and open racism become even more prevalent? What do you think?"

Manifest Destiny

First, we know that much of the perpetual tension between races has its roots in History. Major historical moments such as Slavery has served its purpose. It has forever ruined race relations between whites and blacks, but who cares, whites are a global power and that was the goal from the beginning. Some anthropologist and cultural psychologist even argue that possessing a need to be superior to non-whites is apart of the European male cultural personality or "ethos." Therefore, subjecting other human beings to chattel slavery was to be expected. The European male is believed to be suffering from a rare narcissistic racial personality. Therefore, to separate him from his egocentrism would be tantamount to separating his brain from his body--one cannot function without the other. Therefore, as long as we have white males suffering from this psychopathology, other will be subject to his problem in 2103, 3103, or 4103.

[This message was edited by Rowe on June 03, 2003 at 07:50 PM.]



ROWE:

What is there in the original statement to make you think that the "White" male you describe will be in such a position as to make a difference. Or better yet, want to take such a position. In 100 years, five generations will have occurred. That "White" male you are talking may have taken so much more of African America's culture traits he may not know the difference between himself and the African American-American you are supposing will be the object of his racism.

The "White" male you are describing have has been competing with the African American-American as a free people for 137 years, almost seven generations. His children walk like, talk like, dress like, play baseball like, play basketball like, dance like. And everytime I look around, he's checking out African ancestry women. Do I need to make a list?

By the time 2103 gets here, that "White" male you are talking about is very likely to be checking his ancestry to find, and claim his (unknown) African ancestry.

I almost forgot!!! Sings like us. And that's been going on long before Elvis. Elvis just found out how to make money on it. You may not know who Bobby Darin was --- is? And the "Mule Train" guy --- Frankie Lane. He ran around explaining to everyone he wasn't REALLY a NEGRO he just looked and sounded like it. And "Cry Me A River" Johnny Rae. And the granddaddy of them all, Al Jolson, and his spinoff Eddy Cantor. Those last two guys wanted it so badly, them painted their faces for a little reverse psychology. "I'm just making fun." Yeah. Sure.

Who knows, ROWE? Strange things are going on. Ben Afleck (spelling?) just dipped the stick.

What do YOU think?

Jim Chester

JWC

[This message was edited by Jim Chester on June 04, 2003 at 10:43 AM.]


[This message was edited by Jim Chester on June 04, 2003 at 12:15 PM.]
Reply to Jim Chester:

Jim Chester: I almost forgot!!! Sings like us. And that's been going on long before Elvis. Elvis just found out how to make money on it. You may not know who Bobby Darin was --- is? And the "Mule Train" guy --- Frankie Lane. He ran around explaining to everyone he wasn't REALLY a NEGRO he just looked and sounded like it. What do YOU think?

Rowe: I believe its presumptuous to think that simply because whites patronize black music and are imitative of their entertaining abilities that they want to be black. There's no mistaking that North-Americans/Europeans believe they are superior to anyone that is not white; therefore, why would they want to be anyone except for white?? Cultural chauvinism and egocentrism is the social inheritance given to each white child just as the social inheritance of each black person, it seems, is to feel inferior and unworthy. The only white people that may have a brief desire to be black are those going through Bohemian non-conformist periods in their lifetime. Aside from this, any sane person observing the incredible social tribulations endured by blacks would consider it a sweet blessing from God to be anyting but black.

[This message was edited by Rowe on June 04, 2003 at 07:26 PM.]
WE know whites are not superior to anyone. They go outside, slip on a banana peel, all the king's horses and all the king's men can't put 'em back together again. Damn near break every bone in their bodies. The fact is, they have Doctorates in Shock and Awe and will use it in a N.Y. nanosecond on everyone who crosses them. Now that's scary as all heyell!!
quote:
Originally posted by Rowe:
Reply to Jim Chester:

Jim Chester: I almost forgot!!! Sings like us. And that's been going on long before Elvis. Elvis just found out how to make money on it. You may not know who Bobby Darin was --- is? And the "Mule Train" guy --- Frankie Lane. He ran around explaining to everyone he wasn't REALLY a NEGRO he just looked and sounded like it. What do YOU think?

Rowe: I believe its presumptuous to think that simply because whites patronize black music and are imitative of their entertaining abilities that they want to be black. There's no mistaking that North-Americans/Europeans believe they are superior to anyone that is not white; therefore, why would they want to be anyone except for white?? Cultural chauvinism and egocentrism is the social inheritance given to each white child just as the social inheritance of each black person, it seems, is to feel inferior and unworthy. The only white people that may have a brief desire to be black are those going through Bohemian non-conformist periods in their lifetime. Aside from this, any sane person observing the incredible social tribulations endured by blacks would consider it a sweet blessing from God to be anyting but black.

[This message was edited by Rowe on June 04, 2003 at 07:26 PM.]



ROWE:

Then what are you doing here. On this forum. Is it to argue imitation is not desire? We certainly know what the "white male" thinks. But not the "white female." Right?

This is the discussion, and mentality of a person who could survive only with the anonymity of an internet forum, or a CB radio.

The prattle you are spouting is the poison people like you are trying to teach to our children. The horrible thought just occurred to me that you might be an educator, or some other such person that influences the lives of our children

You are a life-threat in our society

You should be treated as such.

Stay anonymous. It will be good for you.

PEACE.

Jim Chester

JWC
"...any sane person observing the incredible social tribulations endured by blacks would consider it a sweet blessing from God to be anyting but black."

That is an insult. God's blessing is to be "anything but black."? Excuse me!! I won't accept that no matter how it is couched. That is an insult!! Now God is doing my children a favor to stop making people like me. I don't think so!! Such comment was not unintended when I heard it the first time. It is not unintended now. I will not let that go unrecognized.

Roses by any other name..... An iron fist wrapped in velvet still gets the job done.

I don't need anything from ROWE.

At this point, I certainly don't want a dialogue with ROWE. I would be sure to say something that REALLY does not belong here.

Jim Chester

JWC

[This message was edited by Jim Chester on June 06, 2003 at 03:22 AM.]


[This message was edited by Jim Chester on June 06, 2003 at 06:55 AM.]
Chester....

I think you are getting a little carried away, IMO.

I think all ROWE was trying to say is, simply, that no one would want to be in our shoes...[eventhough some whites today think we have as much or more privileges as they do...]

"It's a I'm glad it's not me" attitude and GOD's blessing/curse part was, IMO, a figure of speech!
quote:
Originally posted by Nmaginate:
Chester....

I think you are getting a little carried away, IMO.

I think all ROWE was trying to say is, simply, that no one would want to be in our shoes...[eventhough some whites today think we have as much or more privileges as they do...]

"It's a I'm glad it's not me" attitude and GOD's blessing/curse part was, IMO, a figure of speech!


Nmaginate:

Please explanin "IMO." I understand "figure of speech."

I hope that is what ROWE meant. Maybe I have been at this too long. That language clearly does not mean to you what is means to me. I've told ROWE what it means to me. I drew the line on allowing someone to tell me that a very long time ago.

I will not allow someone to put something like that on me, and let it to go unchallenged. Maybe ROWE is an "innocent" in dealing with this issue. Maybe not. Maybe this "collision" can be of use, if that is the goal.

This brings to mind a similar situation that happened in D.C. An administrator in city government used the word "niggardly" to describe a fiscal initiative. His staff demanded is job.
He was forced to resign. He was European. His staff was, primarily, African American-American. He says the comment was innocent. It probably was. His staff said they didn't care.

Should the administrator have been alert to the potential impact of using an "almost n-word" in addressing a primarily African American-American audience? Yes. Did the staff demand too much? Yes.

Sometimes running into a wall is only thing that will convince you that you shouldn't do that.

I am not carrying an attitude against ROWE. It's all I can do to deal with the load I am already carrying now to assure survival.

Jim Chester

JWC
Reply to Jim Chester:

Jim Chester: That is an insult. God's blessing is to be "anything but black?"

Rowe: It certainly wasn't my intention to offend you or anyone else reading. However, considering the overwhelming psychological stress, useless vitimization, and economic marginalization that blacks endure, I wouldn't characterize our experience as a walk through the breeze, much less a blessing. This is how I feel about it. I consider it extreme however to challenge my qualification as a teacher because of this perspective. Most importantly, I am interested in knowing why MBM (the topic starter) has yet to respond to issues discussed in his own topic.

[This message was edited by Rowe on June 07, 2003 at 10:52 AM.]
quote:
Originally posted by ricardomath:
quote:
Originally posted by Jim Chester:
Please explanin "IMO."


IMO = in my opinion

IMHO = in my humble opinion

IMNSHO = in my not so humble opinion Big Grin

"La vida te da sorpresas...
Sorpresas te da la vida...",
¡Ay, Dios!

Rubén Blades---Pedro Navaja


http://www.plowsharesactions.org/
http://www.nonviolence.org/nukeresister/
http://www.soaw.org/





Nmaginate:

Thanks for getting me up to date.

Jim Chester

JWC
quote:
Originally posted by ricardomath:
quote:
Originally posted by Jim Chester:
Please explanin "IMO."


IMO = in my opinion

IMHO = in my humble opinion

IMNSHO = in my not so humble opinion Big Grin

"La vida te da sorpresas...
Sorpresas te da la vida...",
¡Ay, Dios!

Rubén Blades---Pedro Navaja


http://www.plowsharesactions.org/
http://www.nonviolence.org/nukeresister/
http://www.soaw.org/





ricardomath:

Thanks for getting up to date.

Jim Chester

JWC
quote:
Originally posted by Rowe:
Reply to Jim Chester:

Jim Chester: That is an insult. God's blessing is to be "anything but black?"

Rowe: It certainly wasn't my intention to offend you or anyone else reading. However, considering the overwhelming psychological stress, useless vitimization, and economic marginalization that blacks endure, I wouldn't characterize our experience as a walk through the breeze, much less a blessing. This is how I feel about it. I consider it extreme however to challenge my qualification as a teacher because of this perspective. Most importantly, I am interested in knowing why MBM (the topic starter) has yet to respond to issues discussed in his own topic.

[This message was edited by Rowe on June 07, 2003 at 10:52 AM.]



ROWE:

I believe you didn't intend to offend --- me or anyone else. Insult like beauty is in the eyes of the beholder. It just smacked me between the eyes to hear oblivion being wished on our future.
That's as clear as I can make the interpretation that hit me.

You don't owe me or anyone else an apology. I can sympathize with your hurt. Most of us have been through similar experience, if not the same. Your feelings belong to you.

I don't challenge your qualification to teach. My concern is passing that outlook on to children. I had several very angry teachers as a child. I was an adult before I could see the effect they had on my perspective of life, and myself.

Regarding MBM: I'm sure he will act appropriately. I think he operates the site very judiciously, and fairly.

I look forward to talking again.

STAY WELL. DO WELL.

PEACE

Jim Chester

JWC

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