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(First of all you guys, I know I am argueing against the status quo. I know Most of you don't agree with my position. Air out your position on monogamy
. Tell me why you feel its of valuable as a stablizer of the family in the wake of the situations of the black population, its females, its children and the crisis of the disappearing black male. whats our remedy for our problems? Why are we so vertically dismantled as a people? Does the dismantlement of the family not start with the basic family rules that we organize by? What if the rules we are organized by could be changed and we do economically and socially better as individuals and a sub-population? Are we so locked into white ways of thinking that we cannot expand the envelope of thinking and consider alternatives? How can we win or even compete if we are failing to consider alternatives? Pandora's Box has been opened on us and just how do we as black people really remove the ills that are set upon us?)



ShayaButHer replies: Second, I don't have an "agenda" and I am not against Black Men.

ShaSha, briefly, let me clear up some foul air between black men and black women.
We have agendas. Don't start telling them sisters that there is such a thing as a pure motive. Wheither we see ourselves as instantaneously crafted beings in the image of a spiritual Lord, or genetic complexes driven by the drive to procreate, we have an agenda. If you say you don't have an agenda, then your agenda is covering up your agenda.You have a hidden agenda. You know I know you are well versed in the social world and I did say that you are a Ph.D candidate or did you recieve your degree? So I am keeping it short but to the point cause I know you will whip into dissertation mode by simply wiggling your nose.

You may not feel you are against black men since in your league black women have cried about a male shortage. Mary Mitchell asked that very question for black professional women under the topic of "MANSHARING."

Time To Face Facts That Mansharing Hurts Sisters
by Mary Mitchell

Chicago Sun Times (excerpt)
Black women are least likely to marry, according to the federal Centers for Disease Control and Prevention. That agency reports that by the age of 30, 81 percent of white women and 77 percent of Hispanics and Asians will marry, but only 52 percent of black women will do so. ......But the appalling statistics regarding black female-headed households, poverty, fatherless children and the skyrocketing HIV infection rates among black women lead me to believe the negative effects of this lifestyle have diminished the quality of life for a lot of black women.
For that reason alone, mansharing must be discussed.

So can we talk?




Mansharing is different from Polygamy (a system of marriages). But Mansharing proves a point I am attempting to make and that is that we have to get beyond this casual love and duality. Polygamy brings black women and her husband into a singularity where the home is more than real estate, more than a breeding ground, but a true standing place where people who come together support one and the other.


On point suppose that nearly all of the black women who are currently in jails or likely to be arrested in the near future were in families where their needs and concerns were considered. In such a system black women whould have necessary stuff to do that would be enriching their family or their part of the family. Would those women have time to engage in drugs, prostitution, theft, child neglect, fear of eviction, fear of violence done to them and their children? I think not because the man of the house would be the protector of the family. In this sense black men are the Supra Mother figure of the Black Family. Black Supra Men nuture the family, provide for the common good, develop economic enterprises and provide political counseling for the political entities while maintaing the solidarity of the community and provide the ultimate strength that keeps the family moving forward.


Supra Black Men MUST HOLD UP THEIR WORLD!!

There is unity in numbers in this sense and the more women a man can provide for , the more human anchoring, ties, bonds, affiliations, relationships, associations, contracts and responsibilities he has and must maintain to continue to enjoy his head of household status. Otherwise he is just a black man who has not access to women and must go to other cultures to feed his sexual lust. Thus no STD's, no children without fathers, no Black women without husbands to see after them, no black on black crime. Home is a haven for the black child thus no abortions. We could empty the jails within a reasonable time and create the employment opportunites for the returning brothers. Married black women and their daughters as well as sons would be protected and watched after by the multiple mothers in the community and of coure within the immediate family extended network thus we could absorb the juvenile gang crisis. Black Supra Men would of course police their families within the context of community and racial uplift. (As your trips to Africa will document, all married women within the same villiage are called"Mother".)

Thus in a nutshell the reorganizsation of our people must be our first goal. People renewal or rehabilitation or uplift requires organization that is life long and unbreakable. That's what polygamy becomes when we come together and see each other as people with human needs and not the objects of our desire, solely.



Holla

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I don't have an objection to polygomy in the specific traditional social context...but in this country/culture...Black women are already "mansharing"...Which is one of the reasons I don't have a problem with polygamy...Men often have many baby's mothers but no wives...They get to play but not pay...Eat their cake with no responsibility....How would "mansharing" be any different in this dysfunctional cultural/social/political system we are living under in comparison to the current "Baby mamma/dady structure" we have going on now? Women sharing men isn't the issue...it's already being done...How would the men be encouraged to take on responsibility of fatherhood and husbandry?...Or rather...how could we create a socio/cultural environment that encourages responsible behavior instead of discourages it...This environment/system we live under is hostile to our progress. That's the main issue. That is the difference between traditional polygomy(which still exists in most traditional societies around the globe)...and the crap going on now in U.S. society...BTW, why don't we look at the social/marital structures of other African/Black societies abroad that don't suffer from the same level of interpersonal and marital relationship problems African/Blacks born in the U.S. do?...If we examine that...We would see it is the society's political/economic/cultural structure and environment that either encourages and fosters, or destroys stable families...

This is coming from a women who sees NO problem with polygomy in traditional Africa...Since I have been there and studied traditional society at length...I can see how the child rearing and familial responsibilities would actually push me to want my husband to take on a second wife...I'd need the help! It's not a sex issue like it is in the West...It's aboout what will make life better for the group...for the community...We must also remember that before the time of many WIVES there was the time of Many HUSBANDS...Something most people either are ignorant of, or don't discuss...So who is constructing our interpersonal reality on a Western/White/Arab colonially affected paradigm again?

IMO interpersonal relationships will continue to be dysfunctional until we rid ourselves of the PRIMARY contradiction...Our exploitation and oppression as African/Black people...This will take organization...but it will take organization beyond the familial level. How are the masses of men...and women going to be "reponsible" in paces like NY where the Black male unemployment rate is 50%? That's a hostile environmental condition for stable families. This society is out of balance. We have to look at causes and effects. Criminals are created, so are dysfuntional families...and not just by "individual behavior" but society also...This "mansharing" doesn't address the root problem. It's like trying to cure and prevent lung cancer by taking kemotherapy, but you still are living in a house of cigarette smoke...It's not going to work.

On another note. A lot of the African/Black women I know that are born here limit their options of marriage and dating to Black men born in the states...Why don't we open our pastures to Black men from anywhere?...Africa, the Carribean, South and Central America...Many of these men have been socialized to hold the "traditional" familial structure dear....just a thought.(I'm not throwing the brothers here away...but brothers often date all races/nationalities, and we women often times won't even date African/Blacks from other places...that's just strange and kinda stupid IMO)
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quote:
Originally posted by Manchild90047:
Tell me why you feel its (monogamy) of valuable as a stablizer of the family in the wake of the situations of the black population, its females, its children and the crisis of the disappearing black male. whats our remedy for our problems? Why are we so vertically dismantled as a people?


The problem that I have with this perspective is that it chauvinistically blames women (and ultimately their intolerance of the black male's promiscuity and lack of self-control) for all of the problems that black men experience in this country. In other words, if we follow your rationale to the extent that it would leads us, you will have us thinking that African American unemployment, illiteracy, poor education, racism, discrimination, police brutality, etc. can all be attributed to black men not being able to acceptably fuck and marry as many women as they want. This reasoning is not only hogwash, but it insults the intelligence of every member in this forum. All other men in this country can be satisfied with one woman AND keep a damn job AND run his household in impeccable order AND be responsible for himself except black men because they need more than one wife to do this. Give me a fuckin' break.

What black men need to do is to stop:

(1) Blaming others for their shortcomings.

(2) Using women, particularly black women, as a scapegoat to your problems.

(3) Coming up with the most ridiculous excuses for why you cannot get yourselves together.

(4) Forgetting that many of the KINGS who had many wives could afford it, you can't. Considering the standard of living in America, one can barely support oneself.

(5) And finally, grow up, get a tight grip on reality, and stop thinking idealistically about the conditions and circumstances of our society. More importantly, African Americans,
(black men especially) must invest their valuable time and efforts into ameliorating issues that will lead to more attainable outcomes.

History Fact: Did you know that not all marriages in Africa were polygamous. There were just as many monogamous marriages in Africa and it is incorrect to believe that the success of a family is determined by how many women men can marry and sleep with. Didn't know. Now you know.thumbsup
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Todays society of open sex with whomever one pleases is Polygamy. Polygamy is simply leglised promiscuity.

The way forward I believe is arranged marriages. I say the parents marry the brats off early before they know what hit them. By the time they realise what is happening everyone of their age is married and playing away carries severe consequencies
quote:
Originally posted by henry38:
Todays society of open sex with whomever one pleases is Polygamy. Polygamy is simply leglised promiscuity.



Unless you are just being sarcastic, I would not go so far as to apply that description to polygamy because such a definition obviously shows a limited understanding of polygamy and its functional role in some indigenous cultures. Oshun has already accurately covered the cultural context of polygamy so I will not discuss it further. However, for this guy to make attempts to export only this particular aspect of African civilization without considering how all the other aspects of African civilization are interrelated also shows a limited understanding of polygamy and not to mention an unbelievable ignorance about African Civilizations in general.

In fact, I was just having a similar disscussion in the Issues forum about School Vouchers. And what I am noticing is that African Americans, rather than actually digging through a problem, finding its source, and dealing with it, we either run away or ignore it altogether. Therefore, it comes as no surprise that this guy would encourage black women to avoid figuring out why there's a "shortage" of black men (if there is a shortage at all) and to sexually and matrimonally gang up on one good black man who appears to be unspoiled by society (preferrably him). This folks, is not an intelligent response to a problem. What would be more effective is to get black men (those that need it) the help they deserve just as we should get the children being taught in poor performing schools the help they deserve as opposed to cramming them all into a few better performing schools.

Another solution would be to team all of the "good brothas" with those that are in need (this is an example of cooperative learning used in the Education field) where low achieving students are paired with high achieving students. What black youth require is to see, and to be exposed to, on a continual basis, examples of excellence. More importantly, the last thing that black women (as well as black girls) should be encouraged to do is to lower their standards and expectations for love and intimacy in order to accommodate, or worse, defer to the shorcomings of black men. Why should black women settle for fragmentized relationships because you all can't get your acts together? When will you deal with your issues rather than expecting everyone else around you to put up with them?
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What really upsets me about this person's post and attitude is that it reflects the culturally conditioned thoughts that people generally have about African Americans in terms of what they are worth and what they should expect. People (both blacks and whites) are culturally conditioned to believe that black people are inferior, that we should just accept anything. Consequently, black people have developed low expectations of themselves and these low expectations are transferred onto the people to whom we relate, especially other blacks. This is why the poster has lost faith in the black male's ability to become responsible and has suggested for black women to simply lower their standards in order to accommodate their shortcomings. Sadly, many African Americans remain locked in a state of stagnation and hopelessness because we think that we cannot do any better than what we are doing today. Since birth, everyone that we meet has low expectations of us (teachers, parents, peers) and so we carry around this baggage of hopelessness and poor performance everywhere we go and in everything we do.
quote:
Originally posted by Manchild90047:
(First of all you guys, I know I am argueing against the status quo. I know Most of you don't agree with my position. Air out your position on monogamy
. Tell me why you feel its of valuable as a stablizer of the family in the wake of the situations of the black population, its females, its children and the crisis of the disappearing black male. whats our remedy for our problems? Why are we so vertically dismantled as a people? Does the dismantlement of the family not start with the basic family rules that we organize by? What if the rules we are organized by could be changed and we do economically and socially better as individuals and a sub-population? Are we so locked into white ways of thinking that we cannot expand the envelope of thinking and consider alternatives? How can we win or even compete if we are failing to consider alternatives? Pandora's Box has been opened on us and just how do we as black people really remove the ills that are set upon us?)


Supra Black Men MUST HOLD UP THEIR WORLD!!

There is unity in numbers in this sense and the more women a man can provide for , the more human anchoring, ties, bonds, affiliations, relationships, associations, contracts and responsibilities he has and must maintain to continue to enjoy his head of household status. Otherwise he is just a black man who has not access to women and must go to other cultures to feed his sexual lust. Thus no STD's, no children without fathers, no Black women without husbands to see after them, no black on black crime. Home is a haven for the black child thus no abortions. We could empty the jails within a reasonable time and create the employment opportunites for the returning brothers. Married black women and their daughters as well as sons would be protected and watched after by the multiple mothers in the community and of coure within the immediate family extended network thus we could absorb the juvenile gang crisis. Black Supra Men would of course police their families within the context of community and racial uplift. (As your trips to Africa will document, all married women within the same villiage are called"Mother".)

Thus in a nutshell the reorganizsation of our people must be our first goal. People renewal or rehabilitation or uplift requires organization that is life long and unbreakable. That's what polygamy becomes when we come together and see each other as people with human needs and not the objects of our desire, solely.



Holla



Breaking Manchild's post down to his own comments, his ideas are not out of line and I think he knows what polygamy is really about. Actually, I don't think it's a bad idea, but not viable in the US. It would take a massive change of mindset and mores. Our priorities would have to be totally reorganized- a brother would have to choose between a new Lexus or wife #2. He would also have to be strong enough, commanding enough to maintain peace within his compound (?). I know plenty of young black men think they could handle that, but could they?
quote:
Originally posted by Rowe:
What really upsets me about this person's post and attitude is that it reflects the culturally conditioned thoughts that people generally have about African Americans in terms of what they are worth and what they should expect. People (both blacks and whites) are culturally conditioned to believe that black people are inferior, that we should just accept anything. Consequently, black people have developed low expectations of themselves and these low expectations are transferred onto the people to whom we relate, especially other blacks. This is why the poster has lost faith in the black male's ability to become responsible and has suggested for black women to simply lower their standards in order to accommodate their shortcomings. Sadly, many African Americans remain locked in a state of stagnation and hopelessness because we think that we cannot do any better than what we are doing today. Since birth, everyone that we meet has low expectations of us (teachers, parents, peers) and so we carry around this baggage of hopelessness and poor performance everywhere we go and in everything we do.



Rowe, you are right on point. I applaud you...
quote:
Originally posted by Rowe:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Manchild90047:
Tell me why you feel its (monogamy) of valuable as a stablizer of the family in the wake of the situations of the black population, its females, its children and the crisis of the disappearing black male. whats our remedy for our problems? Why are we so vertically dismantled as a people?

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Why are we so vertically dismantled as a people?

You know I have been around awhile and I am not suprised that so many of us get so emotional when we see or hear about new items or new ways of thinking about ourselves and what we do. I challenge my group to come up with a viable solution about the lower class population in which we the so called have made it class ,have left behind. How do we pull them up and into our world? Whats is gonna take?

Are we simply mouthing out platitudes and pious babble of things taught us by an alien race and for which we have no serious study in the understandingand application of ? Are we truly in a Nigger box where culturally we are afraid to step out and up and lend a helping hand to those who we have left behind in our pursuit for happiness? Do any of you truly understand that if you take on responsibility for another life, you must remain committed for the rest of your natural life? How do we send signals to the rest of our population that we are committed for the great challenges we have ahead of us if we don't marry those who we are trying to help and in turn help their offspring?

Rowe thinks that polygamy is hogwash and that black men should be like other men and keep the flame of marriage alive within the black family as it has been formatted. Rowe thinks that the deviant status of so many black men and women incarcerated, and living marginal or squalid lives of quiet dispair is the fault of black men not stepping up to the plate. Rowe thinks that black men, self included, recklessly useblack women as a scapegoat to our collective problems. Rowe is quite mistaken and others who feel similar to Rowe are caught in a ever tightening world of shrinking understandings, not expanding understandings. Rowe is wrong and here's some reasons why he is wrong, terribly wrong.

In the first instance, Rowe says that black men should be like other men. Rowe is not aware that other men, unlike Black men, have not had a history of degradation, dehumanization, or brutal beatings from the womb to the tomb for several hundred years. Rowe does not recognize that unlike other men who freely can go home to their native land,we the blacks have not seen fit to develop our ties with our Black Homeland. rowe seems to forget that ties with one's homeland also supplies traditional values gained over eons of trial and error so that we have finally gotten it right? If we should be like other men, Rowe,what about cherishing blackness as history and tradition and what about being unique like other men cherish their uniqueness? Are you saying, that we should vanish our blackness and our traditions and wear the mask of lies and frowns "attempting to be like other men?

What Rowe seems to forget, or has yet to truly learn is that black men have a right to be the cultural paragons of blackness. This is no calvinistic attempt to reduce the black woman in to an underling. No further from the truth would be this assertion that black men are free to choose. Both are lies unless black men are deciding what to do not simply doing because they were taught this or that in the image of others. Black men have to have a realistic vision of them selves, and they surely are not getting a real vesion of themselves as lackies to this white culture with its fendish hold on the morals and opinions of blacks. Thus Rowe is blinded by his acceptance of traditional white cultural family values.

Rowe is simplistic when he asserts that black men would simply want to have intercourse and marry as many black women as they can stuff in a box like the Old Woman who lived in a shoe. Life is not about parroting what your historical enemy have force fed into your African mind. Life is about the possibilities that we can accomplish together, united, in concern for each and the other. Life is about caring and sharing issues which we have in common. Life is about compassion for those who are hurting. Life is about saving those who would be saved as they would save us if we were in their condition.

Rowe is wrong about so many things. For example, Rowe says that one can barely support oneself, let alone other wives. That is Rowe's intellectual limitation and that is what Rowe has learned by being individualistic and materialistic. "Do for self" is the individualistic psychology of those who want to blame the victim. Such a notion is like a crab in the bucket mentality by intention: I pulled myself up now you do the same, or got mine- you get yours.It is as if a white man is sitting in rowe's head telling him to disagree with blackness in all forms and embrace only whiteness or death.

Further, Willie Lynch is alive, well and thriving in a brain such as Rowe's unknowingly. I know he thinks not. Rowe thinks that the White man's ice is colder than what a black man can come up with. That's the impetus in his "do as others". Who is he talking about? Who could he be talking about when blacks are doing so poorly and whites are holding their own? You do the math.

Ultimately, Rowe and I are going to have more to discuss. Perhaps he may want to know just how far Polygamy reaches into the very core of of alemorating the worsening conditions of blacks in America. Perhaps not.

But I know of one truth that I have learned in all my years on this planet and it is a surety: When someone gives you an opinion and you emotionally disagree, think about how you reacted and ask your self, "would a white man who hated me want me to act against myself?" If you were honest enough to acknowledge this first thought embedded in most unlearned or illogical black minds as a form or vestiage of the slave asthetic then you have begun the long transition in removing the traces of Willie Lynch in yourself. Think Black! Be Black! Work for Blackness!

Holla

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Truthfully, after giving it some thought, I've surprised myself by realizing that I'm not against polygamy. I don't really think it's appropriate for America's often superficial ideals, but when viewed as a cultural or religious tradition, I find nothing wrong with it. In Islam, a man is allowed to marry up to four wives, but ONLY if he is capable of dividing his time and assets equally between all the women. If he can't do this, he must only have one wife at a time.

Back in the days when my eyes would inadvertently catch glimpses of trashy talk shows, I'd see the stories of men with 8 or 9 wives, and they all lived together happily somewhere out in the boondocks. If we're not talking cultural or religious standards, then I think it should be a personal preference. Some people, especially women, simply don't mind sharing a man. I don't consider it 'lowering yourself' if you are truly happy in that situation. Perhaps it provides a sense of security and familiarity among them; I'm not one to judge (too harshly,anyway).
I have to jump in here for a minute . . .

It seems that polygamy is not a solution for anyone but the male of the relationship---it is only an excuse to have a socially acceptable form of infidelity.

The problem is infidelity itself in the first place----we as Black women do not need someone else's man to love and care for us, we only need for our own man to love and care for us and put our relationship and family first---before his school boy whims, middle age crisis, temptations, and ego trips.

As far as polygamy is concerned, that is what we have now----that is exactly why the Black family is in such dispair; though its unofficial, not socially condoned in this country as in others, that is what is going on and is one of the major contributors to the Black family decline----the majority of men in this country, particularly Black men have no sense of monogomous commitment to one woman and his own children, and it is the lack of the amount of committment that a father should show to his children, any and all of the children that he brings into this world, that is the problem.
The majority of Black/African American women have proven their committment to family and to any and all children that they bring into this world---it is more often than not the African American female that remains loyable to her parental responsibility to her offspring regardless of the relationship that she has with the father (or fathers, as the case may be)---
What men need to do is take the amount of responsibility as well to their children---and to any and of their children.
Black men have wives that they are unfaithful to--disbursing their time that should be spent with their family all around the place: with the mistress(es), hanging out, putting himself first. It is the Black male attitude that has to change.
It is not really a question of polygamy or even a question of marriage-or any ritual that a male performs---but, the committment and attitude he has toward is offspring---whether they are children he and his wife have together or if he is not married and has a child with a woman or children with more than one woman.
If a man refusest to spend the time and money on any or all of the children that he brings into this world, it is the child that suffers emotionally, mentally, and economically---and there lies the problem---not a ritual (rituals in the case of polygamy).
There are too may African American men out there who have not paid their child support or do not pay child support, yet have money to take another woman out on a date (potentially leading to yet another child that he will not support or spend time with). There are too many African American men out there who are wearing timberlands and 200.00 Nike, yet have not paid child support or spent the time it took the to make those purchases with their child(ren). Contrastly, more likely when the African American mother has expensive shoes, so do her children, regardless----and she usually is the one that is spending the time with her children regardless of whatever else she is doing or has going on in her life (I know that there are some exceptions, but they are far less that the rule).
So I say,
Forget about polygamy, and start to practice birth control and safe sex yourself----commit to the children and wife/baby mamma/baby mammas that you do have---practice planned parenthood as well, do not just leave it up to the woman---and most importantly, look at the man in the mirror and ask youself if you are taking care of and spending as much time with, and putting first, before yourself, your whims, your own children, are you treating your children they way you were treated growing up or the way you feel that you should have been as a child.
Reply to Manchild:

From the onset, before we delve too deep in this discussion, let's at least acknowledge that polygamy in America is illegal and it will never be legalized. Therefore, instead of wasting your energy convincing us to convert to a societal standard that will never be realized in this country, why not develop and implement solutions that are more attainable? That is my argument in a nutshell and is the reason why I normally avoid hypothetical discussions like these. You might as well make an argument for why blacks cannot simply get into a spaceship and fly away. I do not subscribe to escapist and/or idealistic theories and I don't intend to today. But that essentially is the heart of the problem in many issues pertaining to blacks; our conversations tend to be too rhetorical and impractical, often times leading nowhere. Just recently, I was talking to this person who was interested in going on and on about why America cannot be a socialist instead of capitalist society. She finally became fustrated with my lack of interest in entertaining her whimsical idealism. Why do we resist dealing with, accepting, and processing reality? The reality is that we are not in Africa and the social and cultural systems in Africa are very much different from those in America. This will never be a socialist and class-less society and whether polygamy is a remedy or right in your opinion, it will never be legalized. Therefore, this is the starting point of reality in which we need to build upon our solutions.

Secondly, black women have endured the same degree of humiliation and other forms of dehumanizing treatment black men have endured (and some would argue that our suffering is constant and because at least in America, men respect men). Yet despite the obvious gender inequality and discrimination (social and economic discrimination), we manage to muster up the strength and motivation to take responsibility for our children and families, get whatever education and/or trainining that is necessary to live productively in this society, and avoid making excuses and mistakes that would ultimately lead to us and our families' destruction.

Third, polygamy is not something that is unique to Africa. I mentioned earlier in this discussion that not all marriages in Africa were polygamous. Chiekh Anta Diop, a major authority on Traditional African social systems, provided research on the classical matriarchal and patriarchal social systems in antiquity. You should check it out. His research revealed that despite what we are made to believe about the African male and his sexual prowess, there were just as many monagamous marriages in Africa as there were polygamous marriages. Therefore, entering and/or accepting a polygamous marriage does not make you any more "black" than the person that does not. More importantly, a man's worth to a community is not measured by the number of women he can marry or the number of families that he can accumulate, but the one woman and one family that he can consistently be responsible for, respect, and love unconditionally. And finally, I would like to challenge your last suggestion "Think Black! Be Black! Work for Blackness!" What exactly does "being black" mean to you? Perhaps if we know this information, then we can get a clearer understanding of your perception of "blackness" and what you are basing this perception of blackness on. In other words, you seem to take for granted a general understanding of the term "blackness," but remember Africa is a huge continent.

Recommended Reading:

1. Black Women in Antiquity by Ivan Van Sertima

2. Black Africa by Cheikh Anta Diop

3. African Origin of Civilization by Cheikh Anta Diop
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Here are some excerpts on marriages in southern African rural society:

One of the preconceptions more popularly held by both academics and lay public alike in regard to southern African rural society is that the indigenous family unit is polygamous in nature. This is only partly true. A broad survey of homestead patterns in the region reveals that whilst a number of polygamous settlements may still be found in the rural countryside, these are in a distinct minority, and monogamous marriages appear to be the general norm. It could of course be argued that this is a recent development brought about by the work of Christian missionaries, but the validity of such an assumption needs be questioned. Not only do the Christian churches which enjoy the largest following in southern Africa, the so-called Independent Churches, permit their followers to practice polygamy, but although the practice of polygamy was indeed more prevalent during the last century, its presence was not as widespread as various missionaries way have wished us to believe. Lichtenstein wrote of the Xhosa in 1812 that:

"Most of the Koossas have but one wife; the kings and chiefs of the kraals only have four or five."

This was reinforced by Alberti who stated, also of the Xhosa, that:

"Those with least resources, must be satisfied with one woman, others have two, and rarely more."

Contemporary visitors to other parts of the country have come to similar conclusions. Livingstone went one step further and in 1857 estimated that approximately 43% of Tswana men practiced polygamy, and then only a very small minority of these had more than three wives. By 1946 an official census revealed that this figure had dropped to 11% with only 1.3% having three wives or more.

The practice of polygamy may, in most cases, be explained in terms of a levirate, a social practice, used to ensure the continued status and survival of widows and orphans within an established family structure. While it is true, therefore, that every rural family is potentially polygamous in nature, we need to question whether such polygamy was the result of "male sexuality and lust", as the missionaries would have it, or merely the enforcement of social obligations intended to reinforce ties between family or clan groupings. Recent data would seem to show that some 27% of rural households are currently headed by widowed or single women. If we were to assume that in the 1850s an equivalent number of women could have become widows and were thus absorbed into the monogamous households of family members, thus making them polygamous, then it will be seen that this form of union could have accounted for most of the polygamous marriages recorded by Livingstone among the Tswana. The remaining group, those with three wives or more, were a distinct minority and their polygamy may be explained in terms of group leaders creating political alliances and gaining control of resources for their own communities.

The general trend away from polygamous unions evidenced since 1900 could therefore be explained in two ways. The growth of urbanisation and the establishment of urban-based political structures has brought about a decreased emphasis upon both regional group identity and the power of the traditional and inherited rural leadership. The need for making unions based upon political expediency has thus lessened considerably. The economics of obtaining a bride in the rural areas has also changed substantially over the past five generations, as women also began to enter the ranks of an industrialised and urban proletariat in increasing numbers after the 1930s.

The conclusion therefore is that the practice of polygamy may have been common in southern Africa up to the end of the last century but that it was never as widespread as has been popularly represented.
Sunnubian has written that black men practice a ship shod form of polygamy that is undermining the cohesiveness of the black family. Rowe atempts to point out that legal polygamy cannot be realised and that the history of monogamy has been equally practiced with polygamy. Neither recognize nor stated the idea of inclusion of ideas that have been used for centuries which must be explored in an unbiased and fearless recogning when it comes to reconstituting the black Underclass.

Neither Rowe nor Sunnubian have submitted any analysis that the black underclass current practices can be resolved by any other reliable and demonstratable medthods than redoubling our present efforts at verbally flogging our black underclass (Cosby). Both Rowe and Sunnubian are unaware that people reproduce their social economic status is equal to their social economic techniques(Robert Merton). Thus the poor black underclass have social economic techniques that render them unlikely to move forward as a class while others may hold up individual acheivements but in the main such numbers are small and do not impact the class's (group) forward progress.

Neither Sunnubian nor Rowe have challenged the notion of the inherent problems we find associated with monogamy (by invocation monogamy creates three destructive classes: orphans, widows and prostitutes). The black underclass forced reliance on the monogamy myth can be demonstrated as adversely fueling early age promiscuity, prostitution, illecit drug usage, each or in combination demonstratably leads to out of wedlock sex and children who's paternity may be unknown or the pater unlocated or unsupportive.

Neither Sunnubian nor Rowe have demonstrated a philosophical description of the world view of the black underclass, its males and its females and their mental asthetic or the lack of one. It must be noted the middle class and the upper classes blacks within the past decade or slightly more have attempted to embraced their Africaness by wearing the Kente cloth,having African Centered Weddings, traveling back to Africa as a first choice, and removing white images of their Savior from the pulpits of their churches. Does Hop Hop define the mental asthetics of the underclass? No great writer have they created nor have they created any great insight into the world in which they live. Their artwork is largely quasi naked well formed women and flashy autos or mansions which are away from the origins of their songs.

Thus there is a vacumn of intellectual creativity within both the black upper and middle classes which feebly leads them to "cuco hole" the black underclass (wall them in ) feeding them asthetic rethoritc of verbal spittle and unorganized efforts at remedies.

If polygamy is not the solution and redoubling the efforts of the middle and upper class blacks has a role to playin aleviating underclass poverty and misery, then where are the black upper and middle class business networks and industries where by the underclass could be prosilized to by economic means to reach social ends? The white social structure has those means and apparently will not permit blacks to move any futher within a white dominated system!

Thus the argument falls short when suggested polygamy cannot be a remedy and a right for the uplift of the black underclasses since the upper and middle classes are also marginal in their association with their financial assets and livelyhoods. Polygamy is a linch pin for the generation of all topics that blacks must consider if blacks are to continue to remain alive and move in to stable competiviteness with other groups.

A society's values must be build from the ground up. Polygamy, a cultural strategy, provides the umbrella for the various marriage types blacks must develop in order to stabilize and build communities and begin to control their economies. I acknowledge that there are many agendas that blacks must explore. None has the potential impact nor the positive social equity than polygamy. Virtue comes in valueing others so much so that you would give your life to save them. Currently blacks are playing a holier than thou game. We must come together in the image of our ancestors or perish.

Holla

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Reply to Manchild from Rowe:

From the onset, before we delve too deep in this discussion, let's at least acknowledge that polygamy in America is illegal and it will never be legalized. Therefore, instead of wasting your energy convincing us to convert to a societal standard that will never be realized in this country, why not develop and implement solutions that are more attainable? That is my argument in a nutshell and is the reason why I normally avoid hypothetical discussions like these.

Manchild90047 responds:

Rowe's correct, polygamy is illegal. His thought process however exposes an error in reasoning. The fallacy (a tutology or circular reasoning) is that because something is illegal it cannot ever be made legal.

I child Rowe only by asserting that slavery lasted for several centuries and it was largely ended ( incarceration is a form of slavery..13th constitutional Admendment) within the United States in the original form as of 1865 with the cullimination of the Civil War with the North or the Union victorious. By extention and argument, this nation narrowly suceeded in keeping gay unions from being comparable to natural heterosexual unions before the law. United Supreme court Justice Skalia noted in his desent on the admenment to permit gay marriages , "that if gay marriages were permitted then polygamy should be permitted as well". Nothing is written in stone, Rowe. (similarly more asssertions of thing that will never happen but did, the auto going so fast that the intrails of the body would simply fly out, flying the airplane, heart surgery and ad nausum).


Secondly Rowe is horribly missinformed: He states:

Secondly, black women have endured the same degree of humiliation and other forms of dehumanizing treatment black men have endured (and some would argue that our suffering is constant and because at least in America, men respect men).

Black women have endured tremendous torture at the hands of White Supremacy. I take nothing from black females nor do I permit anyone to denigrate the tortures that are inflicted upon black males.

Rowe has committed a horrible and wretched minimization of what black men had to under go during the last century of black Holocaust. I child Rowe and urge him to correct his response,namely in what period did whites cut off the female members of black women as whites cut off the black males penis? Or can Rowe document who was cut upon more between the sexes? Black women in medical settings have been sterialized for decades against their consent. How is black female sterilization in a medical enviroment with medical techniques comparable to complete unanestized tearing of the male member from a shackled beaten and live body?

Who were the Pecular Fruit if it was not nearly all black men? Who were lynched, burned,and beaten if it was not the black man? Who could had been beaten until death if not the black man? Who bear the scars of the first humiliation if not the black man unable to defend his black kingdom from the wrechedness of chattle slavery? If the black man was considered the pillar of his community the first in cultured notions, then for his community to be torn down he must first be renderd unable to support it.

The treatment of black women and black men during our sojourn on this planet during the Triangular Slave Passage, Ante Bellum Period, Jim Crow, Civil rights Era and up to this very day supports the notion that black men have it harder than black women if only by degrees. We are in the same boat however, each is the other's humanity.

You are mistaken on this pivitol historical fact. You are not the person to be childing others to abandon hypothetical comparisions. Rowe's abandonment of historical reality and imbuing your responses with your brand of truth would seem to me to be at least an admission on your part that you do not typically intellectualize in contrasts or comparision. Show me different.

Holla

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quote:
Originally posted by Manchild90047:

By extention and argument, this nation narrowly suceeded in keeping gay unions from being comparable to natural heterosexual unions before the law. United Supreme court Justice Skalia noted in his desent on the admenment to permit gay marriages , "that if gay marriages were permitted then polygamy should be permitted as well".


Scalia's dissent last year in Lawrence v Texas, which overturned the 1986 Bowers v Hardwick decision, not only expressed a concern that it would lead to the legalization of polygamy, but that it might actually go so far as to lead to the legalization of masturbation.

Eek

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State laws against bigamy, same-sex marriage, adult incest, prostitution, masturbation, adultery, fornication, bestiality, and obscenity are likewise sustainable only in light of Bowers' (a precious Court ruling which upheld anti-sodomy laws) validation of laws based on moral choices. Every single one of these laws is called into question by today's decision; the Court makes no effort to cabin the scope of its decision to exclude them from its holding.



In addition, one need not look at gay rights decisions to see slippery slope arguements reguarding court decisions leading to the legalization of polygamy. This concern, and arguement, had already been expressed in oral arguements against interracial marriage made by Virginia Assistant Attorney General R.D. McIlwaine in the 1967 Supreme Court decision Loving v Virginia, that legalized interracial marriages.

quote:
The state's prohibition of interracial marriage ... stands on the same footing as the prohibition of polygamous marriage, or incestuous marriage, or the prescription of minimum ages at which people may marry, and the prevention of the marriage of people who are mentally incompetent.


Of course, many of the same arguements originally made against interracial marriages have been recycled for use against same sex marriage.
quote:
Originally posted by Manchild90047:
Thus the poor black underclass have social economic techniques that render them unlikely to move forward as a class while others may hold up individual acheivements but in the main such numbers are small and do not impact the class's (group) forward progress.



COME INTO THE FUTURE

Manchild, I commend you have for at least having a concern for the black underclass and if the black underclass wishes to pool their resources together by the way of polygamous marriages in order to get themselves out of poverty, then I support them 100%. However, we are fully aware that many of the African Americans who can claim success and prosperity today also came from underclass populations that you are describing thereby proving to the world that just because someone starts out in poverty does not mean that they are sentenced to poverty forever.

Finally, perhaps you are unaware that normally in a polygamous marriage, the woman has little to contribute to the marriage than a dowry and her ability to produce children. Therefore the burden of providing shelter, food, and clothing falls upon the man which is typical of traditional marriages. However today, women not only contribute to the marriage their ability to produce children but half and in some cases more than half of the total household income. In this instance, a woman can demand more from her marriage and husband then simply having her basic needs met (e.g. food, shelter, and clothing). And God forbid, but if a marriage should ever become simply about providing women with food and shelter, this would make men virtually useless because more women today are able to provide themselves with food and shelter without the help of men. In fact, there was a study done that showed that African American women tend to make significantly more than their spouses. My mom makes twice as much as my dad, all of my girlfriends (most of them executives) earn more than their significant others, and I have a aunt who makes a little over $90,000 as a grade 14 for the U.S. government, now what incentive would she have to share her husband (earning significantly less than her) with other women? Especially since she is the breadwinner in the household and therefore can certainly afford to choose the type of relationshp she will accept. But the truth that you refuse to accept is that the social and family system in America is not the same as it was forty years ago. Nor is it the same as those in cultures of Africa practicing polygamy. Women no longer have to play the submissive roles of the past, they do not have to "submit" to anything or anyone, and they certainly are in positions to demand more from their relationships than money. Because WE HAVE MONEY. WE HAVE A HOUSE. WE HAVE CLOTHES. Therefore, we require more, much more from you. More than you would be able to give being shared with other women.

Why do think so many women are complaining endlessly about men not meeting their "emotional" and "spritual" needs? The reason is because they are earning so much money that they can afford to focus on marital needs other than food and shelter. That is why! How will your polygamous marriage plan meet the needs of these type of women? Have you even considered that? Or is your view of our society so limited that you think every black person is poor and destitute. More black people than any other time in history are coming out of poverty, earning degrees, and living out their dreams as homeowners and business owners. And not all of these people came from rich backgrounds! And can be done and you don't need to practice polygamy to do it.

Lastly, in many of these polygamous cultures, fertility is highly valued, having lots of children is associated with wealth, and prosperity and often times a man's worth to a community is measured by how many children he can father. Again, that is simply not the case here in America. In America, having lots of children is considered a financial burden and one has to carefully and strategically plan with his or her spouse how many children they can afford to have. I can go on and on. There are so many valid and important reasons why it is simply not plausible or even smart for people in this society to participate in polygamous marriages.
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"Rowe has committed a horrible and wretched minimization of what black men had to under go during the last century of black Holocaust. I child Rowe and urge him to correct his response,namely in what period did whites cut off the female members of black women as whites cut off the black males penis? Or can Rowe document who was cut upon more between the sexes? Black women in medical settings have been sterialized for decades against their consent. How is black female sterilization in a medical enviroment with medical techniques comparable to complete unanestized tearing of the male member from a shackled beaten and live body?

Who were the Pecular Fruit if it was not nearly all black men? Who were lynched, burned,and beaten if it was not the black man? Who could had been beaten until death if not the black man? Who bear the scars of the first humiliation if not the black man unable to defend his black kingdom from the wrechedness of chattle slavery? If the black man was considered the pillar of his community the first in cultured notions, then for his community to be torn down he must first be renderd unable to support it.

The treatment of black women and black men during our sojourn on this planet during the Triangular Slave Passage, Ante Bellum Period, Jim Crow, Civil rights Era and up to this very day supports the notion that black men have it harder than black women if only by degrees. We are in the same boat however, each is the other's humanity.

You are mistaken on this pivitol historical fact. You are not the person to be childing others to abandon hypothetical comparisions. Rowe's abandonment of historical reality and imbuing your responses with your brand of truth would seem to me to be at least an admission on your part that you do not typically intellectualize in contrasts or comparision. Show me different."




I was waiting for someone to say this. This comment holds so much. This comment is the driving force which is tearing the black community apart.

Somewhere growing up, black people(specifically black boys) that black men have been discriminated against more than black women, therefore its okay to debase black women.

Pardon my French, but what kind of fucking shit is this? Not only should black women become more educated about black mens history, but black men need to be educated about black women history.

I am going to guess that some black men resent black women because they believe black women are not effected by racism. Maybe these men think its their duty to debase black women because they were "not discriminated against anough", or at all at the hands of white people.

Dont try to resort to the idea that somehow black men have no self-control, and that they are hyper-sexual beings who can not be involved in a monogomous realtionship. Stop! This is the most racist nonsense ever.

Somehow, we are taught that a black womens job is to soely raise children and to be some form of a males vibrator. I am going to guess this spung out from the idea that black women are supposed to breed slaves. Either way,both the masculinity of black men and the femminity of black women has been damaged by white supremacy.Therefore the black family is not at it's best. Black women are capable of not having children out of wedlock, and black men can have monogomous realtionships, okay.


People seem to have this thought that "black men are blacker than black women." The best example of this is in hip-hop. Hasn't anyone noticed that black men are refered as "niggers"-but black women are refered as "bitches." The n-word refers to both sexes in the black community, okay. Those "coloreds only" signs also refered black women as well, okay.


As far as the discrimination of black women, most of it was sexual, rather than mutalation and lynching. Why do you think over 85% of African Americans have at least one European ancestor? On the planatation, black women did every job black men did, except jobs that used skills, such as blacksmithing. Brotha you need to read and research.


To even compare and determine whether black women have been less discrimnated against compared to black men will only divide this community even more.
quote:
Originally posted by Manchild90047:
Neither Sunnubian nor Rowe have challenged the notion of the inherent problems we find associated with monogamy (by invocation monogamy creates three destructive classes: orphans, widows and prostitutes). The black underclass forced reliance on the monogamy myth can be demonstrated as adversely fueling early age promiscuity, prostitution,


I re-read your post and discovered that it seems that you are suggesting for us to use polygamy as a form of social and/or birth control. I knew you were a nut, but Geez. Now I understand exactly where you wish to take us. If it were left up to you, you would have us women barefoot and pregnant, providing little input on how society should be run, and forced into prearranged marriages with men we know nothing about. You think that by keeping women bounded in polygamous marriages, that this will keep us in check? Right? I knew I picked up on some chauvinist vibes from you. That's probably why I am so disturbed by this topic. I've dealt with men sharing your attitude before. What would you say to women who do not want children or to get married? What if I told you I don't want to get married? How would you deal with me? You'd probably force me wear the letter A on my clothes and tell everbody that I was a hoar for not wanting to get married. You need help dude for real.
Sweetwuzzy, everything you said was right on. I was just thinking what you wrote, as you can read from my last response, but you posted your comment before me. You go gurl! Smile And what's worse, this fool tries to play on our sympathies as women in order to make us more receptive to polygamy while at the same time discrediting our experiences in America. That's real smooth Manchild. But the most laughable part of his suggestion is that he reasons since black men have experienced dehuminization, that black women should pay the check. Because black men suffered, we should suffer and be shortchanged out of an intimate marriage. I don't think so! fool
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Rowe and Sweetwuzzy, I think you got the position I hold on polygamy as a power play between men versus women. If that were true, for one nano second, then I would be the first to say that I am challenging the natural order of human life, which you seem to be attempting to say, however wildly you both "doth protest". If I had not interest in aleiviating the fourteen million abortions reportedly done by black women on unborn black babies since Roe versus Wade 1973 up to the present , you would be right on and I would be a liar. Think for a minute , under polygamy resources are shared and abortion becomes a barbaric act of the past. Thats not birth control! Thats a loving approach to humanity which respecting natural outcomes of a man and a woman's union, however many times the marriage contract is repeated. That's life long social insurance and security!

If I was not solely interested in the waste of life caused by incarceration with nearly one million black men in prision, nearly twelve per cent of all black males between the ages of 20 to 35 in jails or prision, I would be a liar. Why are so many Black women are jamming up the prision industrial complexes with increases in black women incarcerated nationally amounting to a 366 per cent increase for 2002? Why are so many of our youth committing sucide if not because they see no future for themselves nor any hope in their communities? Why are nearly 27 per cent of our black youth dropping out and resorting to lives of futile aimlessness? Why are so many black women haveing babies behind bars? Why is it that one in four of all black women will never marry? Why is it that nearly 60 per cent of the homeless population are women and their children? Come on girls, think. These are not my facts, they are our Black facts. If our Black community is not ready to wake up and begin to embrace some suggestions concerning saving our very own, then we are doomed, doomed, doomed. All of us, together.

Nature prefers women because every fetus first starts out as a female. I don't have a problem with that natural fact. More female children are born and survive than males. Females tend to mature quicker than males. More women will survive to adulthood than males causing a natural excess of women. Thats nature! Monogamy mythology does not factor in this population imbalance which results in a need for polygamy in order to reduce the number of black women who are unprotected by marriage and the potential children they would as well create. Women having babies out of wedlock is not the natural order of black life unless you are speaking of the ills of slavery and what black women were forced to do. You know this stuff forwards and backwards.

But what neither of you seem to factor in or don't care to acknowledge is that males determine the culture! Don't get it twisted. When it comes to civilization building there is no need for sexual equality because oppressed men will be working against the oppressor to determine the future of our society. Women will be the gleeful and caring benificiaries of our martars and the males that survive this awakening in our population.

Males determine the culture in any society ever known to man in this sense: Men make war and tame the enviroment. Women have attempted to do civilization building however there has never, to my knowledge been any civilization based upon the contribution of women working over the males in their society. Males determine the quality of civilization and culture in all known human societies and by extension males determine the quality of life in our nearest and most highly advanced primates. Most of the doctoral black women I have associated with acknowledge this fact of humanity because men are built to endure war, pain and struggle in a way that does not befit the black woman who must fight against other men for territority. Even the Doctorial black woman submits to this fact, while she tends to want to stay away from the subject, but those highly educated women understand this fact. Males determine the quality of the civilization.

I am quite capable of learning. Scold me, ball me out but Teach me. Teach me. Show me the data. Don't tell me I am wrong, show me where I am wrong. Many a great man has been held to redicule by those he would save.

Holla
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quote:
Originally posted by Manchild90047:

But what neither of you seem to factor in or don't care to acknowledge is that males determine the culture! Don't get it twisted. When it comes to civilization building there is no need for sexual equality because oppressed men will be working against the oppressor to determine the future of our society. Women will be the gleeful and caring benificiaries of our martars and the males that survive this awakening in our population.

Males determine the culture in any society ever known to man in this sense: Men make war and tame the enviroment. Women have attempted to do civilization building however there has never, to my knowledge been any civilization based upon the contribution of women working over the males in their society. Males determine the civilization and culture in all known human societies and by extension males determine the quality of life in our nearest and most highly advanced primates. I am quite capable of learning. Scold me, ball me out but Teach me. Teach me. Show me the data. Don't tell me I am wrong, show me where I am wrong.



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Eek Eek Eek Eek Eek
Eek Eek Eek Eek Eek
But the most laughable part of his suggestion is that he reasons since black men have experienced dehuminization, that black women should pay the check. Because black men suffered, we should suffer and be shortchanged out of an intimate marriage. I don't think so!

Manchild90047 responds: I am not alone in this analysis that as a species black men have suffered and continue to suffer greater by degrees than the black woman. How you get to that assertion about "black women should pay the "check" of a black man's dehumanization" only further adds weight to the notion that black women really don't know much of anything of substance about their black men nor how to really get at a black man. The agenda of anti-male or proto-feminist idealist are permeating black urban women who see their images through the eyes of Black "Sister Girl" television sitcoms and particularily Hip Hop videos. Thus many urban blackwoman have the notion of a black man, "striped down to hormones and Timberlands".

Such a shallow, white media pleasing anti-black agenda of TV may be why so many black urban women, hit and miss so regularely with black men. They are in search of "Mr. Good Time" and not "Mr. Baby will you Marry Me". Black urban women are falsely led to believe because a man gets intimate with them that they want them. they get hurt over and over again. They get bitter and withdraw from the game. No wonder so many black women are opting out of marriage and simply being single God mothers.

Both genre's marginalize the image of the Black urban woman( sister girl sitcoms and Hip Hop images) leaving the urban black woman feeling empty when she does not meet or step up to the trite, lustful, and willing victim images she internalizes as beauty and worthyness. This white intrusion into the black woman's mind only leaves the black woman with more male related stress, male confusion and less personal female self esteem. It does seem that black urban women, many only understand black men from a "if I give the sex, you pay for the Lex," end goal. Wake up, sister and define yourself according to your heritiage and your ethnic traditions and not be so "modern" that you can't catch a good man when he approaches you.

Monogamy mythology has got urban black women so stressed out, trying to be so many things to attract and keep a man, that she ends up being nothing to her self and to her children without a husband and a father. I am not trying to suggest that Polygamy will cure all of the black urban woman's delimina's. I am suggesting that black urban women would do far better if they were married and if they had a husband to protect them from their "own selves" when it can be domonstrated that singleness has nothing to offer the black woman but a lonely bed ,abortion, or a fatherless home for her children.

Holla
In addition, one need not look at gay rights decisions to see slippery slope arguements reguarding court decisions leading to the legalization of polygamy. This concern, and arguement, had already been expressed in oral arguements against interracial marriage made by Virginia Assistant Attorney General R.D. McIlwaine in the 1967 Supreme Court decision Loving v Virginia, that legalized interracial marriages.


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The state's prohibition of interracial marriage ... stands on the same footing as the prohibition of polygamous marriage, or incestuous marriage, or the prescription of minimum ages at which people may marry, and the prevention of the marriage of people who are mentally incompetent.

Manchild90047 responds: Ricardomath , The need for exclusion of polygamous marriage arose to strictly punish the Mormons.

Additionally, according to the supreme court justice in the orginal case, which I had viewed some years ago but do not recount the case name or number. Monogamy was a white man's marriage system and polygamy was a black man's marriage system. This being a white nation meant the white man's culture monogamy was to be the rule of law. However there were many cases that had to be decided before the Act was finally ratified in about 1889(?)

Mormons still are going to court challenging the law. But that is an aside. Whats your point?

Holla
"Manchild90047 responds: Ricardomath , The need for exclusion of polygamous marriage arose to strictly punish the Mormons.

Additionally, according to the supreme court justice in the orginal case, which I had viewed some years ago but do not recount the case name or number. Monogamy was a white man's marriage system and polygamy was a black man's marriage system. This being a white nation meant the white man's culture monogamy was to be the rule of law. However there were many cases that had to be decided before the Act was finally ratified in about 1889(?)"

Black men are capable of being monogomous, my friend. Many,to most African societies had marriages that were monogmous. I do not know why you are playing into sexual stereotypes about black men.

The reason so little black women are getting married is the population diffrences between black men and women.Economic problems in the community, and out of wedlock births.Prisons, and I will also add in racism, and self-hatrade, on both sides.
Men were made to fight the wars? Black women are not able to endure such? You do not know of any civilizations built on the works of women?

In this case, I want you to do a bit more research before you start talking about what women are and are not capable of doing. While it is true that men are often at the forfront of battle, or rather given the attention and credit for the battles that were fought I challenge you to look into the battles that we as Black women have made such large contributitions to. Look into the roles of Amy Jacques Garvey and her contribution to Garveyism and then tell me how Garvey would have been successful at ANYTHING without the work of his wives. Look at the work that BLACK WOMEN did for the civil rights movement...do some research on Black improvements and the establishments that Blacks have made in general and then see if you'll be able to say that no civilization has made on the basis of the work of women and I feel that you will find yourself highly mistaken by your words.

Also I feel that your argument that Black women today are living in a world in which we are constantly trying to compare to sitcoms and videos, I challenge you to look at the Black man's contribution to that. IMO, I think that I woman would want to please the man in which she's with and if it has been made apparent (which I feel it has) that many men favor such women then so be it. Yet I also challenge you to look at the situation from this perspective: sitcoms, videos, movies, etc. are often criticized for the effect that it has on Black women, BUT too often we fail to understand or fail to admit to the fact that these sitcoms, movies, videos, etc. are replicas of the Black women that are a part of our everyday lives. SO why is it that the women have to be attempting to be like what is seen on television and is it not that television is simply replicating the women in our communities?
Polyandry seems like a more sensible solution sense African American women are in a better position today in terms of employment and education to help advance African Americans. If black men are suffering from unemployment, incarceration, illiteracy, and everything else like you say they are Manchild, wouldn't that place them on the receiving end of requiring assistance? Therefore, apparently what we really should be discussing here is the possibility of women marrying multiple husbands. My aunt making $90,000 annually can certainly have her share of at least two or more husbands since black men today are worth less than "50 cent." This makes more sense because certainly black women have suffered from dehumanizing treatment during slavery. Therefore, we definitely need more than one husband to get us back on track and more importantly to get black men back on track. Black women must unite to save the black male underclass. Black women must recurit all black males, especially the Shemar Moore, Moris Chestnut, and Tyson Bedford types who should willingly without hesitation or rebellion come to us with no boxers or shirts on because we black women have suffered much and our communities cannot prosper until every woman is afforded at least two husbands. Who else has been cut like us? I "child you" to tell me who else has been cut, suffered from whippings, and from unmerciful brutality at the hands of the slave master? If for no other reason (as weak and amusing as it sounds), this is precisely why women need more than one husband. How else are we going to help black men out of their self-destructive rut? Rather than hold black men accountible for shaping their own lives and destinies, we should marry them into submission and hope like hell (with our fingers crossed) that this will magically make them responsible people overnight. Yeah that sounds like an intelligent idea.
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Comments fron Rowe:
COME INTO THE FUTURE

Manchild, I commend you have for at least having a concern for the black underclass and if the black underclass wishes to pool their resources together by the way of polygamous marriages in order to get themselves out of poverty, then I support them 100%. However, we are fully aware that many of the African Americans who can claim success and prosperity today also came from underclass populations that you are describing thereby proving to the world that just because someone starts out in poverty does not mean that they are sentenced to poverty forever...

Manchild90047 Responds: It is entirely possible that when whites Catholic Reconstructionist planted mental seeds by idealy elevating the black women over the black male and taught the black woman the white women's understandings of what is wrong with white manhood, black women were duped. Black women needed a Black woman's perspective on living and working with black men, which was effectively destroyed during three hundred years of slavery. Black women have more to say in the destruction of the black family than at any point in our history within America.

The modern fevor and terrific ease of cultural flosom injected into the mindset of many black women (individualist, unisexed, feminist, anti-male, is her Achellies Heel. The black woman's singular claim to strength in the population perpetuation race was that she was durable, with certain unique strengths, she could imagine "doing it" alone and she had oddly enough various pocket books which she could pick. Unfortunately, her strength is her greatest weakness. She is causing the demise of the entire Afro-American black race.

In the first instance, black women have relied upon the white woman to provide her with the ideals of sucess and acheivement while dismissing the contributions of the black male. Keep in mind the notion that the white woman never has threatened to abandon her family's patriach.

Moreso, the white woman through her unfettered loyality and allegiance to her white male has only sought to exert similar power over black women as has been the former sole privilege of the white male. The white woman, historically striped of power and its pleasure wanted some measure of authority in a world where she had none. The white woman's mission in the social setting was to bring the uncivilized black man's woman into humanity.

Black women are the proxes of white culture and thus the extensions of white versions of feminity, in a sterile sense. White women eagerly took to inculcate associated culturally domesicated black women with the ideals and the protocols of womanhood, either by religious church gatherings, quilt makings, serving in white kitchens,or directly telling them how to do and what to say to have influence over their man. Many black women married and went on to be decided influences in their black family, in a positive sense. The turn of the century (1900) black family formation rates mirrored white family formation rates, each hovering within the high eighty percentiles. Even during the Great Depression, black family formation rates were higher than they are today with unparalled numbers of blacks enjoying middle class employment. However with integration, and the Civil Rights Movement and its blessings came a mixed set of ills.

For example in employment, the idea of equal pay for equal labor gave the black woman the push for parity in the labor force where muscle alone had been the primary elevating factor within the black population. White firms welcomed the black woman more so than the black man, since white males after all simply continued to have access to the black man's women as was the case in the South.

The black woman learned how the white man thought and how he conducted his businesses and how white women served him as he had power. Her black man in contrast worked the menial jobs and seldom rose above the common laborer class. Black women held long suspecions of the black man for not protecting her during slavery and this vestage of the slave history is still alive and well. Black women by working in the integrated system began to renew their distrust and respect for their black men since he was so powerless and lacked the thinking style of her social benefactors who were white. It did not matter if he was working and paying the bills, he still was powerless and not thinking like the white man.

The problem began in the black family as the black woman gained greater economic parity, her decision making capability began to be influenced by greater social perceptions wheither they be clothing, automobiles,church affiliations, where they lived, when, who, she could start a family with. Women with money, specifically black women with money, who now could say that they are the bankrollers and they are the captians of the family have simply upsurped the black man's family role.

Black women seem to be angry at the lack of black men who commit but black women seem to forget that they are the ones who are comparing a black man to a white standard that never was permitted to exist.

Thus black women in the upper and lower middle class are the least likely to understand ,apply solutions or objectively critic race based solutions aimed at the black female underclass. However their lamentation that they have knowledge and understandings, they seemingly have the wrong understandings or the most alien understandings due to their mental infiltration of white based standards of Western Feminity. Why?

Black women in the upper and lower midle classes are devoid of cultural comparisions when they have so strongly internalized the white standard, with it's Westernized God, cultural goals and anti black male family ideology.

Holla
Manchild: Black women needed a Black woman's perspective on living and working with black men, which was effectively destroyed during three hundred years of slavery.

Rowe: Absolutely. Everything that African captives understood about their culture(s) and tradition(s) were destroyed, so certainly their relationships must have been impacted as well.

Manchild: The black woman's singular claim to strength in the population perpetuation race was that she was durable, with certain unique strengths, she could imagine "doing it" alone.

Rowe: Most black woman would argue that they "do it alone" not by choice, but out of necessity. Unfortunately, there are not enough black men responsible enough to be held accountable for just one family, never mind multiple families. They have yet to prove to African American women that they can be responsible for one family, which is primarily the reason why your arguments for polygamy in this discussion are falling on deaf ears.

Manchild: In the first instance, black women have relied upon the white woman to provide her with the ideals of sucess and acheivement while dismissing the contributions of the black male.

Rowe: What contributions? The only contributions that black men make are as sperm donors, but no fathers! Where are the fathers???? Pick any black child in a public school, ask them if there is a father in the home, and you will mostly get the response, "I don't have one," or "My mom and dad are not together anymore."

Manchild: Keep in mind the notion that the white woman never has threatened to abandon her family's patriach.

Rowe: Again, the reason is because the white male can contribute more to a family and a relationship beside his body and his sperm. Whenever you go to a park, zoo, or amusement park, you see the white man strolling around his children, enjoying and appreciating his children, showing pictures of his children off to his peers, and/or bragging about how great his children are performing in school. The black man other the other hand is embarressed by his children and/or wants nothing to do with them. He would much rather 'pretend' as if his paternal relationship to his chid is nonexistent. He wants to live what I like to call a "permanent singlehood," which is free from responsibility, free from committment, and free from societal obligations that every one of us (including men) must eventually assume if we are to claim to be part of humanity. And the truth of the matter is that the black woman has lost respect for the black man because he has shown no respectable qualities in his character. He lacks honesty and integrity, he is irresponsible and unreliable, and has to little credibility to be given more chances than he deserves. Therefore, why would anyone, in her right mind, agree to enter into a polygamous marriage with someone who is not worthy of such a relationship and has not proven to capable of handling even his own life? Black women are not stupid, you may think that we are, but I'm here to tell you brotha that we are not. And we deserve better than what you are proposing in this discussion. And my final question for you is when are black men going to begin to realize that? THAT WE DO DESERVE BETTER AND THAT WE ARE WORTH YOUR FIDELITY, TIME, and EFFORT!

Manchild: It did not matter if he was working and paying the bills, he still was powerless and not thinking like the white man.

Rowe: Whatever. Manchild, what you are doing is using history (some of it factual, some of it clearly exaggerated and conspiratory) to make excuses for why black men should not be held accountable for managing their own lives. And rather than help them, your excuse-making only does them an incredible disservice, especially for our youngsters. Young black men especially should be instructed that there is no greater deed a man can do than to take responsibility for the decisions that he makes. Most importantly, in any marital and/or social system, whether its polygamous or monogamous does not matter, a man is expected to be a man. Every civilization benefits from people (both men and women) abiding by certain moral and ethical values, which include: Trustworthiness, Responsiblity, Caring, Fairness, and Respect. And if you cannot abide by these universal principles and values on which every and any society depends, then certainly having more than one wife will not make much of a difference. All of the arguments that you made thus far places the blame on women thereby putting women in positions of leadership, but if you subscribe to the doctrine promoted by the Christian church that the "man is the head of any marital union," then the obligation of repairing the status of black relationships falls upon men. Therefore, any step toward resolution must begin with them. So do to look to us to solve your problems, problems that only you can reflect on and eliminate. What we have been patiently waiting for as black women is for you all to take hold of this situation and regain control over your lives and your families.
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quote:
Originally posted by Manchild90047:

Males determine the culture in any society ever known to man in this sense: Men make war and tame the enviroment. Women have attempted to do civilization building however there has never, to my knowledge been any civilization based upon the contribution of women working over the males in their society. Males determine the quality of civilization and culture in all known human societies and by extension males determine the quality of life in our nearest and most highly advanced primates.


If I may give an Iranian Woman's perspective on this...

Bones Suggest Women Went to War in Ancient Iran


Sat Dec 4, 8:47 AM ET Science - Reuters

TEHRAN (Reuters) - These days Iranian women are not even allowed to watch men compete on the football field, but 2,000 years ago they could have been carving the boys to pieces on the battlefield.

DNA tests on the 2,000-year-old bones of a sword-wielding Iranian warrior have revealed the broad-framed skeleton belonged to woman, an archaeologist working in the northwestern city of Tabriz said on Saturday.

"Despite earlier comments that the warrior was a man because of the metal sword, DNA tests showed the skeleton inside the tomb belonged to a female warrior," Alireza Hojabri-Nobari told the Hambastegi newspaper.

He added that the tomb, which had all the trappings of a warrior's final resting place, was one of 109 and that DNA tests were being carried out on the other skeletons.

Hambastegi said other ancient tombs believed to belong to women warriors have been unearthed close to the Caspian Sea.

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=570&ncid=570&e=2&u=/nm/20041204/sc_nm/odd_iran_warrior_dc
Rowe: Whatever. Manchild, what you are doing is using history (some of it factual, some of it clearly exaggerated and conspiratory) to make excuses for why black men should not be held accountable for managing their own lives. And rather than help them, your excuse-making only does them an incredible disservice, especially for our youngsters. Young black men especially should be instructed that there is no greater deed a man can do than to take responsibility for the decisions that he makes.
quote:
Originally posted by Manchild90047:
Rowe: Whatever. Manchild, what you are doing is using history (some of it factual, some of it clearly exaggerated and conspiratory) to make excuses for why black men should not be held accountable for managing their own lives. And rather than help them, your excuse-making only does them an incredible disservice, especially for our youngsters. Young black men especially should be instructed that there is no greater deed a man can do than to take responsibility for the decisions that he makes.


Manchild90047 Responds: I am not exaggerating the case of black relationships in America. Black women who are working typically do not give their paychecks to the black man. Black women typically chose the man who they like but then do not live up to their end of the bargan by making the home a productive and happy place partly because urban black women need better education as does blacks in general. If you say that black men, are responsible for the plight of the black family, what do you say of those black men who are or were in families and the black woman,

....fought against them, ...failed to work with them, wanted to control when where and how money was spent.... and did not get the understanding from THEIR mothers that would provide them with an understanding of how to cope in a hostile world where black men are marginalized and seen as the enemy in the white world?

You seem to speak for all women, not just black women, when you say that (black) men are not manning up and proving that they can provide or work with the black woman. You are lost in your arguments in terms of logic for specific and precise reasons, I will detail.

In the first instance, black men who are father figures of the family, tend to work and tend to want to demonstrate to their sons how to work with their black wives.
But black women tend to be supecious for no reason of the motives of the black man,....

black women tend to compare their black men unfavorably with white men,.....

black women want to be like white women and stay at home, even when they know that it takes two incomes to raise a family,....

black women resent black men who they feel never love them enough, adequately, overly spoil them, sit adoringly in their presence or shower them with affection twenty four seven in the sense that black women want a man to be doting over them all the time and stroking their egos all the time. a man would get tired of this attention and black women likewise , it would seem would get tired or have an aversion to such momunentous attention if they were honest with their selves. Thus they use this ruse as a battering ram or a frying pan over the black man since he cannot keep pating her and fawning over her and still be a warrior prince or even a average man. These black women are out of their minds.

Black women, who largely come to the marriage bed, with the imressions of many previous partners, unwittingly think one man is supposed to "represent" in bed for all her previous sexual experiences. He is one man while she has sexually presented herself for marriage having had mutliple partners before the marriage. A woman's sexual readiness is different than in a man because a womans vagina stretches and is able to contort to the length and width of a male penis. a man's penis may enlarge and harden through arousal and a lack of negative stress. If a black woman, speaking of sexual intercourse, has had several previous lovers and then marries in the future as many say to ,simply get away from home, they are cheating their black Husband of their selves. The black women who have had sex before marriage and find fault that he does not really make me feel goodare that way simply because they gave up all the precious bonding experiences, BEFORE they got hitched! Black women are in denial about their sexual lives and the effects of previous black sexual encounters on the current sexual satisfaction of their present protective black man.

Most black women are not married as virgins. "These are many black women's shallow reasons of resentment of the black man. I am the hero here. I am setting a path and a trajectory along which our ancestors prospered and immediately created the means of their success until the arrival of gun technology.

I am confronting black women those who the shoe may fit and I am correcting the social illogic by working in this forum. Black people have to wake up and unite along family lines that equate with unity. Polygamy is unity and our population is the most ununified and dis aggretated group on the American planet. I do not think that black women who run to white men who are compasionate to their needs readily satisfies the yearning deep within a black woman. How can a white man , not to be mean, but how can a white man give a black woman what her nativety has prepared her for? Answer, a white man cannot do. Black women should and must invest their selves with the black man and work to build the black community.

We either live together or we perish together. It's that simple.

Holla
The problem it seems is that, you think your masculinity is under attack because many black women are making more money then black men. It takes more to raise a family then money. Whatever happened to love? It is 2004, it's okay if a wife makes more than a husband.If you feel threatened by that then I feel sorry for you.If men are not prepared with the consequences of raising a child, then make sure your women is on some kind of birth control,and stop getting women pregnant!!!
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"I am not exaggerating the case of black relationships in America. Black women who are working typically do not give their paychecks to the black man."

What? Women must give their money to their man? What ever happened to sharing it?



" black women resent black men who they feel never love them enough, adequately, overly spoil them, sit adoringly in their presence or shower them with affection twenty four seven in the sense that black women want a man to be doting over them all the time and stroking their egos all the time. a man would get tired of this attention and black women likewise , it would seem would get tired or have an aversion to such momunentous attention if they were honest with their selves. Thus they use this ruse as a battering ram or a frying pan over the black man since he cannot keep pating her and fawning over her and still be a warrior prince or even a average man. These black women are out of their minds."

What? Are you high? All women want to be loved. This is an issue that all women, regardless of race want, and deserve.If the "man" has made you unable to have respect for yourself and women in general, I feel sorry for you dearly.
quote:
Originally posted by Manchild90047:
Manchild90047 Responds: I am not exaggerating the case of black relationships in America. Black women who are working typically do not give their paychecks to the black man. Black women typically chose the man who they like but then do not live up to their end of the bargan by making the home a productive and happy place partly because urban black women need better education as does blacks in general. If you say that black men, are responsible for the plight of the black family, what do you say of those black men who are or were in families and the black woman,

....fought against them, ...failed to work with them, wanted to control when where and how money was spent.... and did not get the understanding from THEIR mothers that would provide them with an understanding of how to cope in a hostile world where black men are marginalized and seen as the enemy in the white world?

You seem to speak for all women, not just black women, when you say that (black) men are not manning up and proving that they can provide or work with the black woman. You are lost in your arguments in terms of logic for specific and precise reasons, I will detail.

In the first instance, black men who are father figures of the family, tend to work and tend to want to demonstrate to their sons how to work with their black wives.
But black women tend to be supecious for no reason of the motives of the black man,....

black women tend to compare their black men unfavorably with white men,.....

black women want to be like white women and stay at home, even when they know that it takes two incomes to raise a family,....

black women resent black men who they feel never love them enough, adequately, overly spoil them, sit adoringly in their presence or shower them with affection twenty four seven in the sense that black women want a man to be doting over them all the time and stroking their egos all the time. a man would get tired of this attention and black women likewise , it would seem would get tired or have an aversion to such momunentous attention if they were honest with their selves. Thus they use this ruse as a battering ram or a frying pan over the black man since he cannot keep pating her and fawning over her and still be a warrior prince or even a average man. These black women are out of their minds.

Black women, who largely come to the marriage bed, with the imressions of many previous partners, unwittingly think one man is supposed to "represent" in bed for all her previous sexual experiences. He is one man while she has sexually presented herself for marriage having had mutliple partners before the marriage. A woman's sexual readiness is different than in a man because a womans vagina stretches and is able to contort to the length and width of a male penis. a man's penis may enlarge and harden through arousal and a lack of negative stress. If a black woman, speaking of sexual intercourse, has had several previous lovers and then marries in the future as many say to ,simply get away from home, they are cheating their black Husband of their selves. The black women who have had sex before marriage and find fault that he does not really make me feel goodare that way simply because they gave up all the precious bonding experiences, BEFORE they got hitched! Black women are in denial about their sexual lives and the effects of previous black sexual encounters on the current sexual satisfaction of their present protective black man.

Most black women are not married as virgins. "These are many black women's shallow reasons of resentment of the black man. I am the hero here. I am setting a path and a trajectory along which our ancestors prospered and immediately created the means of their success until the arrival of gun technology.

I am confronting black women those who the shoe may fit and I am correcting the social illogic by working in this forum. Black people have to wake up and unite along family lines that equate with unity. Polygamy is unity and our population is the most ununified and dis aggretated group on the American planet. I do not think that black women who run to white men who are compasionate to their needs readily satisfies the yearning deep within a black woman. How can a white man , not to be mean, but how can a white man give a black woman what her nativety has prepared her for? Answer, a white man cannot do. Black women should and must invest their selves with the black man and work to build the black community.

We either live together or we perish together. It's that simple.

Holla


Are you serious? You need to look at the shitstem that is screwing all of us...African/Black men AND women...Trying to blame each other is fruitless. We are not each others enemy. Only those who have been thoroughly brainwashed by the shitstem we live under would spew some of the garbage you have about African/Black women. The same would go for anyone spewing stereotypical rhetoric about Black men.

BTW, I notice you never commented on my original post and the ISSUES I brought up in it. Are you just choosing to ignore it because you don't have a response, or is it easier to just confront people that have a direct objection to polygomy?...Until you deal with the oppression and exploitation of the SOCIETY that we live in the familial breakdown will continue. Or are you under the false impression that our current circumstances are ONLY a result of us not practicing polygamy? Come on now...be realistic and stick with the matriarchial(from the patriarchial Euro-centric standpoint) or rather from our standpoint, the balanced African-centered cultural perspective you claim to espouse.

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