Poll: Cosby's Impact

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Originally posted by MBM:
At the National Urban League conference last week Chuck D. said that, at his age, Cosby has a right to be cantankerous and that his message, over-all, was one that African America needs to hear.

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Question:
Do you agree that Cosby has earned the "standing" in our community to hold his views?

Every man, woman and child has a right to express their views.... I do not begrudge Cosby this....

and applaud his desire to "try"... rather than sit and do nothing...

he is apparently moved and cares about our plight...

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Question:
Whatever you think about Cosby's words, what effect do you think they have had on African America?

There was no choice for minimal... I think they incite conversation.... but real change is created through "action"... and plans and projects and collective movement towards specific goals that fit in with the whole...

Cosby ranted.... he has the right to do so... he's frustrated... and he rants from his particular viewpoint of change....

but our community's ills are created by more than our own horrible decisions.... real change has to include a true understanding of who and what you're dealing with.. otherwise one moves towards making good face for the time being....

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Question:
Michael Eric Dyson criticizes Cosby by saying that he ignores the societal aspect of African America's plight. Do you agree with Dyson that Cosby's message is fatally flawed because it is only half the story or do you believe that Cosby was trying to push African Americans to make an immediate impact in those areas that it can most control?

see above....

but I will add that in truth there needs to be a varied attack, psychologically, spiritually, economically, politically etc... and it needs to extend beyond the poor... the middle class have serious resources that are mismanaged, misdirected and misunderstood...... the rich as well...

ALL of our people need healing, because we ALL have issues... the severity of which to be highlighted only by those most frustrated..... the poor and disenfranchised's plight is easy to cause irritation, they are easy targets in media and number....

but dare I say not in quality of pain.....

whether one makes $200,000 or $20,000 you will find thieves, rapists, con artists, stupid people getting by off the government, hoes, pimps, murderers, drug addicts, *ahem* (Cosby?)--baby daddy's etc....

one classes crap is just well maintained and more covered up than the other..



Peace,
Khalliqa

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Originally posted by virtue/Khalliqa:

one classes crap is just well maintained and more covered up than the other..

I'm not sure whether Cosby is making a blanket indictment of the poor per se. I think he's just talking about what the poor need to do to better provide for themselves against a myriad of competing but less productive distractions.

Out of curisioty, has he proclaimed the virtues of the current middle/upper middle class in this whole dialogue? I'm not sure he's putting anyone on a pedestal. He's just offering his prescription for uplift.

BTW - Cosby, by no means, was born into the wealth that he enjoys now. This isn't Geroge Bush trying to tell folks to pull themselves up by their bootsraps. He is speaking critically to a group from which he came - communicating a prescription that worked for him.

The results seem to reflect the overall Intellegence of this Black Community!

ER

I was in the minority on the no impact part. I said - no impact.

Cultural behavior is entrenched over generations, Bill Cosby is just one man, it would have to be something much bigger than he to make a change and change is over time and attrition.

By virtue of being Black, Cosby earned the right to preach waheva he wants.

Old or not.

I don't think his words alone will do a thing.

What has he said that's novel?

Go to a beauty shop, church, stoop, or dinning table and you're bound to hear exactly what he said.

What has that changed?

I don't have to look back a half century to think about when my family was low-income. I don't do volunteer work with the poor by day and then go home to a mansion by night.

In that sense, I've been critical of some of Cosby's words. I do feel that sometimes he blanketly degrades the poor. And by omission, portrays higher income Blacks as people who are just smelling roses. Problem free.

He sounds like someone who is a degree removed from the people he talks about. Who believes the hard working poor died out as soon as he got some $$$.

But, then again, that might just be his speaking style.

Or, if that's truly what he sees, perhaps I should chalk it up to different circumstances.

I've been around the poor who actually work and try to care for their children. Who don't by $500 Nikes because they are busy working multiple jobs to put bread on the table. Who people would look up to if they actually knew their circumstances rather than judged them based on stereotypes.

Perhaps Cosby hasn't had that luxury.

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Do you agree that Cosby has earned the "standing" in our community to hold his views?

I don't believe that anyone has, or has to, "earn[ed] the standing" to hold/express his/her views. Everyone [Black] has the right/obligation to express one's views concerning our community. No amount of work, deeds or status gives one any "special" right to voice their opinion. Nor does their work, deeds or status make them "right" or "correct" in their assessment of our community.

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Whatever you think about Cosby's words, what effect do you think they have had on African America?

Other than sparking a debate, largely amongst the Black middle-class, his words, just like anyone's/everyone's words, have little to no effect on Black America.

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Michael Eric Dyson criticizes Cosby by saying that he ignores the societal aspect of African America's plight. Do you agree with Dyson that Cosby's message is fatally flawed because it is only half the story or do you believe that Cosby was trying to push African Americans to make an immediate impact in those areas that it can most control?

Cosby's message is not "fatally flawed" because he leaves out the [Dyson's] environmental/outside influence piece. There ARE areas in life that we (I) can control; just as there are areas that are largely outside the scope of our (my) control.

Any message that promotes doing what we (I) can with what we (I) have is a positive, and IMHO, a correct message, that does not obviate against external obstacles.

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Other than sparking a debate, largely amongst the Black middle-class, his words, just like anyone's/everyone's words, have little to no effect on Black America.

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Originally posted by MBM:
Do you agree that Cosby has earned the "standing" in our community to hold his views?

Every man, woman and child in the Black Community has the right to voice their opinion. I don't believe anyone "earns" the right to speak in-depth about a subject, unless it is some area that requires extensive expertise such as Quantum Mechanics.

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Whatever you think about Cosby's words, what effect do you think they have had on African America?

I lean towards "No Impact", but I voted "Negative". I voted "Negative" because Cosby has caused a lot of destructive arguing in class conflict in the community as well in terms of critical discussion.

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Michael Eric Dyson criticizes Cosby by saying that he ignores the societal aspect of African America's plight. Do you agree with Dyson that Cosby's message is fatally flawed because it is only half the story or do you believe that Cosby was trying to push African Americans to make an immediate impact in those areas that it can most control?

I lean more towards Dyson, but part of me agrees with Cosby as well. I agree with Cosby that we should promote self-help, personal responsibility and self-discipline. But I disagree with him that our problems are solely or mostly the fault of the Black "underclass" or the Black working class. I think many of his arguments are the debased rantings of a privileged Black middle strata that wants to believe it is innocent and not partially responsible for the problems of Black America.

Dyson is right in pointing out the inherent structural problems of America that cause the problems in the Black Community. Capital flight, housing discrimination, corporate policy, Neoliberalism, Generation X stark indidividualism, urban police states, the Crack Epidemic, Token Integrationism, Suburbanization, Urban Sprawl, Gentrification, etc. are all external problems that plagues the Black working class. I don't agree with Cosby that we should ignore external problems and only focus on internal problems. That's the RHETORIC of corn-fed Kneegrows like CON-Feed. I could also point out the problems that middle strata Black Americans cause, such as Middle Class Entitlements, rampant consumerism, voting habits, housing appreciation schemes which takes land away that could have been used to house the Black homeless, credit irresponsibility, Black capital flight, etc.

To ignore or downplay external problems is to give White Supremacy and White Capitalist Hegemon a free pass. To ignore or downply internal problem (which I think Dyson does to a point) is to allow community solidarity and liberationary spirit to drown in Integrationist spirit.

Community solidarity, class consciousness, political consciousness, fiscal responsibility, gender consciousness, radical/progressive spirit, etc. are all important things as well as the things Cosby pointed out.

I agree with Cosby. I am tired of seeing our Black people destroyed by the ramifications of Jim Crow, Apartheid Education, Cocaine/Alcohol Addiction and Dysfunctional Behavior caused by self-hatred [black on black crime.....blacks killing blacks...blacks throwing rage/anger/distrust at blacks]. IT IS TIME TO STAND UP!!! AND SCREAM AT THE TOP OF OUR LUNGS...NO MORE ...NO MORE... NO MORE!!!

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Originally posted by Momentum:
ER

I was in the minority on the no impact part. I said - no impact.

Cultural behavior is entrenched over generations, Bill Cosby is just one man, it would have to be something much bigger than he to make a change and change is over time and attrition.

Momentum ...

I believe just the fact that what he said is still being talked about, debated, discussed, dissected, intellectualized, and repeated will (hopefully) bring about a change. It may not be a "wake up tomorrow and everything's all right with the world" type of change. A situation like this unquestionably will take time to fix. But, rarely are situations like this able to quick-fix.

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I've been around the poor who actually work and try to care for their children. Who don't by $500 Nikes because they are busy working multiple jobs to put bread on the table. Who people would look up to if they actually knew their circumstances rather than judged them based on stereotypes.

Ma'am ...

I've been around the same type of "poor" people as well. Several people that I call "friend" are in that situation. But have you ever been around the type that Cosby is talking about? Do you believe that they exist? Never had a friend who would buy her child the latest pair of Nike's before buying the child a learning-aide because he is failing reading in school?

Because I've been around those types of "poor" people as well. Even call a couple of them "friend." Of course I wouldn't know for sure, but I figure that if I can know and be exposed to those two very different types of people, Cosby would/could too.

Although I agreeded with the gist of what Cosby said, I think he was stereotyping poor blacks. His impact of his recent crusade is that he has gotten the community to look at its self. And throughout his career, has showed America that black america is not one-dimensional...

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Originally posted by MBM:
At the National Urban League conference last week Chuck D. said that, at his age, Cosby has a right to be cantankerous and that his message, over-all, was one that African America needs to hear.

If age has anything to do with being a severely shortsighted and unsympathetic fool, then I suppose Cosby has earned the right to be cantakerous. Even as Cosby makes his hot-tempered comments all across America, America remains to be one of the most racially-segregated countries in the world. Two of the most racially-segregated places in America are public schools and residential communities. In the year 2006, the poorest communities are populated by Blacks and Latinos while the most affluent communities are still largely populated by Whites. Travel to any state in the US, and you'll see this pattern again and again. But Cosby never addresses this reality in his discussions. I am not surprised though, because usually those sharing his sentiments will avoid this end of the debate entirely.

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Whatever you think about Cosby's words, what effect do you think they have had on African America?

On the majority of Blacks who have limited opportunities and are born into communities with too few models of success, I think his words will have little to no impact. There is a way, however, to motivate people without harshly criticizing them. A more effective way to motivate people is to first acknowledge and respect their unique cultural identities and backgrounds. In some of Cosby's dialogue, I picked up on a strong disdain for Blacks that is comparable to the disdain of any Klu Klux Klan member, especially towards Blacks who have never been exposed to, or have chosen not to conform to Eurocentric speech patterns and customs. This is a clear sign of intolerance, and will get him nowhere with the majority of African-Americans and other minorities in similar situations.

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Michael Eric Dyson criticizes Cosby by saying that he ignores the societal aspect of African America's plight. Do you agree with Dyson that Cosby's message is fatally flawed because it is only half the story or do you believe that Cosby was trying to push African Americans to make an immediate impact in those areas that it can most control?

I wholeheartedly agree with Brother Dyson, and I am shocked at the forum's poll results.

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I wholeheartedly agree with Brother Dyson, and I am shocked at the forum's poll results.

Well, holding back the laughs at the "cantankerous" characterization... ( LMAO!! ) The poll results really reflect something else about the forum (the overwhelming numbers voting for Cosby), least of all any sort of shock here. The Silent Majority strikes again. LOL!!

To the question, whether or not Cosby has or is perceived to have "standing" is, irrelevant. The issue is about where he stands (and how high on the mountain he/others project him standing), not where he can or can't.

IMO, Cosby's "message" is fatally flawed because the inaccuracies, lack of proportion and the overbearing and clear SELF-LOATHING his "message" is steeped in. There are no halves. The "two" are INSEPARABLE. The one (the societal this and that) is implicated in the other.

Now, unless Black folks have "the most control" over most of the immediate institutions that perpetuate whatever is seen or perceived as the problem(s) and unless Black folks have "the most control" over most of the immediate institutions which can be utilized to correct most of the problems then this "areas we have the most control over" rhetoric can be put to rest with all the other conventional, myth-like catch-phrases fit for dino cemetaries.

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As historian Robin D.G. Kelley argues, "All the self-help in the world will not eliminate poverty or create the number of good jobs needed to employ the African American community."

Now, unless someone can tell me that the behaviors so many like to rant about (in very self-serving ways, I might add) aren't a product of the so-called "cycle of poverty", ("nihilism" having a correlation to generational poverty?) and until somebody can disentangle this Cosby riddle:

The 'American Dream' of upward mobility is just another myth...Far from being prepared to move along an established career ladder, black children are trained to occupy those same positions held by their parents in a society economically dominated and maintained by a white status quo."

... Well, I rest my case. Folks have these ideas, and yeah, they sound good but that other stuff folks say in other instances have to have a consequence. That other "half" has to have a real meaning despite then things we want to believe and would like to aspire to.

So, unless Black folks actually do have "the most control" over the most important of the things that impact our Life Chances (and that goes beyond our parents, that's Sociology 101... and most of our parents don't employ and aren't in the position to educate us from K-12) then this naive and very limited rhetoric about what "we have the most control" over (as if those things exist in a mono-control enviroment) can take it's place among the many a unexamined precepts that make their rounds.

Cosby sure wasn't talking about providing jobs or any release from those things that impact what we think we "most control" (whatever those things are... from whatever island they exist on).

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Originally posted by Nmaginate:
Well, holding back the laughs at the "cantankerous" characterization... ( LMAO!! ) The poll results really reflect something else about the forum (the overwhelming numbers voting for Cosby), least of all any sort of shock here.

Why do you say this? Judging from the responses made by folks in the politics forum, I thought the poll would reflect more diplomatic views. I didn't expect for members to be so conservative and apathetic in their responses.

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Originally posted by Rowe:

Why do you say this? Judging from the responses made by folks in the politics forum, I thought the poll would reflect more diplomatic views.

I don't understand what you mean. What are "diplomatic views" as they relate to the poll questions?

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I didn't expect for members to be so conservative and apathetic in their responses.

And I'm going to have to say, I don't know where or how "apathy" fits as an apt characterization for the responses. I'd have to assume something about the "conservative" part (which I find odd, coming from you) but I think I know what you mean.

It's not a shock to me because I was aware of that, well, for the lack of a better term... that "conservative" strain that runs through a lot of thoughts of our fellow posters. Some, somewhat vocal and others not nearly as vocal as the most vocal ones in this SILENT MAJORITY. LOL!!

To most of their credits though, I'll just be honest and say I take exception to your characterizations. A number of the folks here who have given Cosby their vote of confidence are far from "apathetic." IMO, we're having issues with a certain Orthodoxy and the overall state of affairs in Black America for which most, if not all, at least to some degree, genuinely want answers/solutions to. I don't think many if any are "apathetic" about that in any absolute sense of the word.

The problem really is all about a search for answers and the impulse to short-stroke that process. Some because they want to manage it. Others because all they can see are things "out of control".

At issue here are questions of powerlessness and, the with other "half", the determination not to be subjugated by conceding to the powers that be, the very thing, IMO, that cements "powerlessness."

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Originally posted by Nmaginate:
So, unless Black folks actually do have "the most control" over the most important of the things that impact our Life Chances (and that goes beyond our parents, that's Sociology 101... and most of our parents don't employ and aren't in the position to educate us from K-12) then this naive and very limited rhetoric about what "we have the most control" over (as if those things exist in a mono-control enviroment) can take it's place among the many a unexamined precepts that make their rounds.

Yes!

As far as I'm concerned, until the majority of Black students and teachers can safely walk into their schools without pieces of the infrastructure falling on their heads and into their laps, or having to keep their purses in the car for fear of discovering roaches and rats taking naps in them, I don't want to hear (or read) any judgements being made about Black people and their children.

When was the last time Bill Cosby visited a public school in D.C., or Baltimore City for that matter, where some of the worst public schools exist? When was the last time he sat in on a class session and interacted with some of the students who attend these schools?

Until our children have the SAME opportunities as affluent White children who are being educated in the most luxurious, well-equipped, and spacious elementary, middle, and high schools, simply because they reside in affluent communities, I don't want to hear it ok. It is like this in D.C, and it's the same deal all over the country. So either help us make things better for these children by making resources and opportunities more accessible to them, or shut the hell up. I don't mean to get upset about this, but that's how I feel about it.

And it's true, The Cosby Show was UNREALISTIC. Yes, I said it, Cosby's television show DID NOT reflect the real lives of the majority of African-Americans, and Bill Cosby knows that it's true. The Cosby show was nothing more than Cosby's idealistic, fantastical view of how he feels every Black family should be living, but they don't. If he or anyone else doesn't like what I've said, then that's just too bad.

I was leaving the grocery store this evening. A SUV pulled into the spot across from me and one one over. The young mother who looked in her early-mid 20s got out of the driver's seat and another female got out of the passenger side. The mom opened the back door to the truck and in a very loud voice said:

"Get out the car. Why the hell you takin' so long?"

A boy who looked about the age of 6 and wearing what appeared to be a school uniform came immediately sliding out the back seat and before his feet touched the ground, his mom said:

"And don't go in here askin' for a damn thing or I'll wear your ass all the way out! You hear me?"

I don't know whether the child answered her or not. I didn't hear a response. But I would venture to say that almost everybody in the parking lot heard here. And then she said:

"Do you hear what the hell I'm saying to you, boy?"

To which I heard a little tiny voice say, "Yes."

I then watched as the mother and her friend walked across the parking lot, through both double doors into store ... and not once turned around to see where her son was, who was lagging about about three feet behind.

Although I don't profess to know any other details of the interaction or relationship between that mother and her child, and recognize that it's really none of my busines, I personally found the way she publicly addressed her child appalling. But that's just me.

My question is, would you say that this kind of behavior (which, if we were to be honest, is not uncommon in the Black community ... and regardless of whether you consider it good, bad or indifferent) is a matter of some type of societal/poverty-induced/result of racial discrimination type of thing?

or

more a matter of personal responsibility by the mother as it relates to the rearing of her child?

By the way, this season on HBO's The Wire, directors will be giving viewers an insider's look into Baltimore's worst public schools and the conditions with which Black students attending the schools must endure. I strongly recommend everyone here view the series. I know I will, and I hope Bill Cosby will be viewing the program, with his ignorant self.

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Originally posted by Rowe:
As far as I'm concerned, until the majority of Black students and teachers can safely walk into their schools without pieces of the infrastructure falling on their heads and into their laps, or having to keep their purses in the car for fear of discovering roaches and rats taking naps in them, I don't want to hear (or read) any judgements being made about Black people and their children.

When was the last time Bill Cosby visited a public school in D.C., or Baltimore City for that matter, where some of the worst public schools exist? When was the last time he sat in a classroom and interacted with some of the students that attend these schools?

Until our children have the SAME opportunities as affluent White children who are being educated in the most luxurious, well-equipped, and spacious elementary, middle, and high schools, simply because they reside in affluent communities, I don't want to hear it. It is like this in D.C, and it's the same deal all over the country. So either help us make things better for these children by making resources and opportunities more accessible to them, or shut the hell up. I don't mean to get upset about this, but that's how I feel about it.

And it's true, The Cosby Show was UNREALISTIC. Yes, I said it, Cosby's television show DID NOT reflect the real lives of the majority of African-Americans, and Bill Cosby knows that it's true. The Cosby show was nothing more than Cosby's idealistic view of how he feels every Black family should be. If he or anyone else doesn't like what I've said, then that's just too bad.

The cosby show was not meant to represent the majority of African Americans anymore than the brady Bunch represented white americans. Anyhow, how was it unrealistic ???

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As far as I'm concerned, until the majority of Black students and teachers can safely walk into their schools without pieces of the infrastructure falling on their heads and into their laps, or having to keep their purses in the car for fear of discovering roaches and rats taking naps in them, I don't want to hear (or read) any judgements being made about Black people and their children.

Well, here are my only comments by way of a cross-forum repost:

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"Instead of helping some kids beat the odds
why don't we just change the odds? "

...Canada has concluded that neither [a strictly Liberal or Conservative] approach has a chance of working alone. Fix the schools without fixing the families and the community, and children will fail; but they will also fail if you improve the surrounding community without fixing the schools.

Canada's... program combines educational, social and medical services. It starts at birth and follows children to college. It meshes those services into an interlocking web, and then it drops that web over an entire neighborhood. It operates on the principle that each child will do better if all the children around him are doing better. So instead of waiting for residents to find out about the services on their own, the organization's recruiters go door-to-door to find participants, sometimes offering prizes and raffles and free groceries to parents who enroll their children in the group's programs. What results is a remarkable level of ''market penetration''...

Obviously, a lot of folk ideas are problematic because how they rest on the "beat the odds" paradigm you and I reject.

Cosby's "their part of the bargain" rhetoric is problematic in that same way because it's basically the same thing. Maybe that's the "conservatism" you were talking about.

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Originally posted by EbonyRose:
My question is, would you say that this kind of behavior (which, if we were to be honest, is not uncommon in the Black community ... and regardless of whether you consider it good, bad or indifferent) is a matter of some type of societal/poverty-induced/result of racial discrimination type of thing?

Obviously this woman's behavior is the result of poor socialization. She speaks to her son this way because her mom (or guardian) spoke to her that way when she was child. Now, as an adult, she has come to believe that this sort of language and interaction with her son is acceptable. But should her behavior be used as a standard by which we judge all African-American parents? Can we even reach the conclusion, based on this woman's behavior, that all Black mothers interact with their children in this manner?

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The cosby show was not meant to represent the majority of African Americans anymore than the brady Bunch represented white americans. Anyhow, how was it unrealistic ???

Where was the show situated? What city?

When did the Cosby's venture out and encounter life outside of the Huxtable residence and/or family and friends who weren't in the same strata?


Don't even trip. Because I don't trip over the Cosby show. Because there's only so much you can do with a sit-com and it shouldn't have to be "representative." But then, by the same token, folks should have no reservations or comments about the representativeness of Good Times, etc. and vice versa.

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Originally posted by Rowe:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by EbonyRose:
My question is, would you say that this kind of behavior (which, if we were to be honest, is not uncommon in the Black community ... and regardless of whether you consider it good, bad or indifferent) is a matter of some type of societal/poverty-induced/result of racial discrimination type of thing?

Most accurately... that that behavior is representative of those "Lower Economic" folk which, by definition, aren't ALL Black folk. And by representative, the clear implication is a significant chunk, majority or most people in said class.

The problem with anecdotes and making unquantified references to what's not "uncommon" in the Black community is that it's based purely on perceptions. And perceptions can be skewed and often are, when these types of things are said.

And "racism" is implicated in that situation due to the type of poverty experienced (of the mind and wallet... and spirit too... and ya'll castigating folks definitely ain't helping in that department with this self-serving BS) which is correlated to the level of education one has and that of one's parents, etc., etc. So there is NO SEPARATION. No EITHER ~ OR.

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Originally posted by Sweetwuzzy:
The cosby show was not meant to represent the majority of African Americans anymore than the brady Bunch represented white americans. Anyhow, how was it unrealistic ???

When the Cosby show first aired, I was quite young then, but I remember there was a lot of controversy over whether or not the program accurately represented the lives of Black people. Some critics said that the program was not something with which the majority of African-Americans could identify. Cosby, and other starring guests on the program, disappointed and clearly annoyed by the critics comments, replied by insisting that it does. I am saying that the critics are right to call the program unrealistic because the majority of Black children do not have doctors and lawyers for parents, or even parents who are capable of paying their way through college. Therefore, I think the Cosby show, much like its sister program, A Different World, depicted what life could be like for African-Americans (if they only "put forth more effort"), rather than what is actually accessible to the majority of African-Americans, particularly those African-Americans residing in the poorest parts of any urban community.

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Originally posted by Nmaginate:
Where was the show situated? What city?

When did the Cosby's venture out and encounter life outside of the Huxtable residence and/or family and friends who weren't in the same strata?

Hardly ever.

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Don't even trip. Because I don't trip over the Cosby show. Because there's only so much you can do with a sit-com and it shouldn't have to be "representative." But then, by the same token, folks should have no reservations or comments about the representativeness of Good Times, etc. and vice versa

True.

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Originally posted by Rowe:
Obviously this woman's behavior is the result of poor socialization. She speaks to her son this way because her mom (or guardian) spoke to her that way when she was child. Now, as an adult, she has come to believe that this sort of language and interaction with her son is acceptable. But should her behavior be used as a standard by which we judge all African-American parents? Can we even reach the conclusion, based on this woman's behavior, that all Black mothers interact with their children in this manner?

Well, of course not, Rowe. But my question really was not geared toward ALL African American parents, or mothers, or children or people at all.

I (as I believe Cosby has been) was mischaracterized. If my question was in relation to anyone other than the one mother and child involved in the incident I witnessed ... then it would be one which relates to those other mothers who also show that type of behavior publicly towards their children.

That certainly isn't every African American mother. It certainly wasn't my mother or any of my aunts toward any of my cousins, that I know of. But, since this isn't the first African American mother I have seen relate to their child(ren) in this manner, I certainly don't believe that it could be said that she's the only one, either.

But, my question was related to this particular mother and this particular child in this particular situation. And I do agree with your assessment of that particular situation and the reasons you stated.

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I (as I believe Cosby has been) was mischaracterized.

How?

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But, my question was related to this particular mother and this particular child in this particular situation.

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My question is, would you say that this kind of behavior (which, if we were to be honest, is not uncommon in the Black community ... and regardless of whether you consider it good, bad or indifferent) is a matter of some type of societal/poverty-induced/result of racial discrimination type of thing?

No, you've insisted on trying to say it's about more than just that one mother and child.

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I certainly don't believe that it could be said that she's the only one, either.

So we have this silly game of one extreme (ALL Black parents) to the other (none or "only" one).

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Originally posted by Nmaginate:
How?

Because I was not talking about ALL of anybody.

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No, you've insisted on trying to say it's about more than just that one mother and child.

Nmaginate ... how could you read what I just wrote and say something like that?? Are you drunk??

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So we have this silly game of one extreme (ALL Black parents) to the other (none or "only" one).

No, that would be your silly game. I have no intention of playing with you!

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Nmaginate ... how could you read what I just wrote and say something like that?? Are you drunk??

No. Quite sober and quite aware of what you insisted on inserting every chance you got.

I certainly don't believe that it could be said that she's the only one, either.

Validates what I said.

if we were to be honest, is not uncommon in the Black community

Validates what I said.

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Obviously this woman's behavior is the result of poor socialization. She speaks to her son this way because her mom (or guardian) spoke to her that way when she was child. Now, as an adult, she has come to believe that this sort of language and interaction with her son is acceptable.

Now what ROWE did say doesn't quite fit your EITHER ~ OR questioning.


SOCIALIZATION implicates more than just the mother-and-child or even the grandparents. It's called SOCIAL-lization for a reason.

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I (as I believe Cosby has been) was mischaracterized.

How?

Because I was not talking about ALL of anybody.

Sorry honey, but that crutch was knocked out from under you:

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Most accurately... that that behavior is representative of those "Lower Economic" folk which, by definition, aren't ALL Black folk. And by representative, the clear implication is a significant chunk, majority or most people in said class.

I got you saying:
if we were to be honest, is not uncommon in the Black community

Well, there's a lot of things that aren't "uncommon"... What was your point? "Good" Black parenting isn't uncommon. So, your point?

I believe I recall how folks here have discussed their common experiences either growing or now as adults seeing White kids misbehave in grocery stores, etc. So, that type of parenting, apparently, isn't uncommon with White folk or, no doubt, any of people? So? Your point?

What makes you feel/think this is so remarkable when it comes to the Black Community? And what are you examining in terms of the root cause and root solutions...? especially given how you "agreed" with ROWE?

Dyson is a sell out.. he's an uncle Tom pimping his own people.. He needs to shut up and stop talking because he makes absolutly no sense..

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Originally posted by Ras:
Dyson is a sell out.. he's an uncle Tom pimping his own people.. He needs to shut up and stop talking because he makes absolutly no sense..

As much as I would love to agree with you, Ras ... I can't honestly in good faith say that that's true!

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Originally posted by Ras:
Dyson is a sell out..

Actually, I believe he loves his people very much and thinks he's doing good my them ...er .. us.

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he's an uncle Tom pimping his own people..

Actually, he's pimping White America more, because they are the one's paying him to promote his "message." He's just using us to do so.

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He needs to shut up and stop talking because he makes absolutly no sense..

Now this one I'm having a little trouble defending. He does need to stop talking (so much!) ... but, there have been occasions when he has said things that needed to be said! I think I can think of at least two!! But then again, I don't listen to him a whole lot ... so, I give him the benefit of the doubt that it could have been more.

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Actually, he's pimping White America more, because they are the one's paying him to promote his "message." He's just using us to do so.

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quote:
he's an uncle Tom pimping his own people..


Actually, he's pimping White America more, because they are the one's paying him to promote his "message." He's just using us to do so.

But wouldn't that mean he's pimping us and white america is the trick?

Hmmm ... I look at it more like it's White America getting screwed ... and we're just the dildo!

It seems aparent that Mr. Cosby, who I believe is a member of Omega Psi Phi, has allies not only with Chuck D but also with the members of Alpha Phi Alpha, based on the views of the speakers presented. It also seems from the poll that when they can respond privately, members agree with those that have been demonized in the past for voicing thier views. 20 to 9 at this point for Cosby. Speaks volumes.


Must be viewed with real player.
The State of the African American Male

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20 to 9 at this point for Cosby. Speaks volumes.

It was more than that. 20 - 4, I remember...

And I agree and disagree with you. The vote does speak volumes and says a lot about the SILENT MAJORITY. Not much flattering, IMO. And speaking PUBLICLY and "airing our dirty laundry" (i.e. hashing things out) was pretense upon which some of these SILENT MAJORITY types supported Cosby.

Yes, it's speaks volumes how on this forum so many people are, apparently, so insecure in their views.

I mean, this is just the internet. What's there to speak "privately" about on a public forum regarding a very public issue?