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Fatal Beating of Man in Custody Probed

I would like to spark some intelligent discussion on this issue. Think link above provides the background.

What do you think of this latest controvesy and charges of police brutality and/or racism?
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Henry! Big Grin

I have the utmost respect for the most Revolutionary of responses!
I'm an American! We believe in Revolution!
That's what I've learned from Thomas Jefferson.
It's in the Declaration Of Independence!
And we ALL revere the Revolutionary spirit embodied in it
and that great spirit of freedom it gives! Big Grin

Oops! (I'm not suppose to say that stuff here!)
Oh well...

Mad Everyone Disregard This Post! Roll Eyes

[This message was edited by Nmaginate on December 02, 2003 at 04:50 AM.]
An individual must first be doing the right thing themselves before they can even begin to question the authority, civil and/or criminal wrongdoing of police officers.

In each of these instances the suspects as depicted were caught in the act of violating the law and were combative when the police attempted to arrest them. These individuals were combative to the extent that they aimed to inflict bodily injury on a peace officer, to which in this instance they contributed to their own deaths.

Anyone under the influence of PCP, would definitely be a problem, so much so, that a police officer or group of police officers, may have to use what ever means necessary to subdue them, which may result in bodily injury and/or death.

Some Black people need to stop doing these very foolish things, refrain from committing criminal acts, that are destructive to their own well being which make them violent, and/or make them destructive to other individuals. Should policing authorities reach the scene of criminal activity, police officers are bound by law to protect, serve, and/or defend, the general public against criminal activity!

It would have been totally unwarranted, unnecessary and/or illegal if these individuals had of been law abiding to begin with, to which policing authorities proceeded to maim, kill, arrest, confiscate their possessions, etc.

If this were in fact the scenario, the individuals concerned would have good cause to file a claim for damages against the police jurisdiction concerned. Since this isn't the case, then there is a good possibility that the police will be cleared of any criminal wrong doing!

Sincerely,

Michael Lofton

[This message was edited by Lofton on December 02, 2003 at 05:08 PM.]
Mr. Lofton,

I don't know that I would refer to the cincinatti officers as "peace officers". Also, I never heard what crime the victim had committed before the "peace officers" approached him. What I am hearing on the news stations is that a 400 lb black man was in a restaurant parking lot acting strangely. What crime do your sources say he was committing before the officers approached him? I must have missed that.
I certainly can empathize with Cincinnati black folks right about now seeing as NY went through a similar time of high profile police murders on young black people. So if the people there feel a little frustrated about the situation, I don't blame them. That's all I have to say until the final results come out from the investigation.

Our people have made the mistake of confusing the methods with the objectives. As long as we agree on objectives, we should never fall out with each other just because we believe in different methods, or tactics, or strategy. We have to keep in mind at all times that we are not fighting for separation. We are fighting for recognition as free humans in this society
Malcolm X, 1965
CINCINNATI, Ohio (CNN) -- A 350-pound man who died after being beaten by police when they tried to subdue him had an enlarged heart, and cocaine and PCP in his system, the Hamilton County coroner's office said Monday.

A statement from coroner Carl Parrott Jr. said Nathaniel Jones, 41, "had a markedly enlarged heart, consistent with hypertensive heart disease."

Preliminary results of drug testing showed the presence of cocaine and PCP, or "angel dust," in Jones' system, the coroner's statement said.

"Each of these drugs is a central nervous system stimulant and has been associated in some cases with bizarre and violently aggressive behavior," the statement said.

The incident Sunday morning was captured on videotape by a camera mounted on a police cruiser.

The tape showed four white police officers using nightsticks to subdue Jones, who is black, after he lunged at one officer.

The video sparked outrage in Cincinnati, where four days of rioting erupted in April 2001 after a white police officer killed an unarmed 19-year-old black man.

"How many of our people have to die before the city decides to do something about it?" Nathaniel Livingston Jr. of the Coalition for a Just Cincinnati told The Associated Press.

"We are not trying to say that this gentleman was innocent. I don't know what the circumstances were, but I have seen the film, and the kind of beating that I observed would raise questions in anyone's mind," said Dr. Calvert Smith, president of the Cincinnati chapter of the NAACP.

http://www.cnn.com/2003/US/Midwest/12/01/died.in.custody/index.html
quote:
An individual must first be doing the right thing themselves before they can even begin to question the authority or wrongdoing of police officers.

See Lofton is exactly the anti-intellectual types I tried to steer away from this.

A person doesn't have to be righteous to have rights!

If everyone was "righteous" then there would be no need for the police. I'm not necessarily saying the police are all wrong here but every time the have an encounter with a beligerent and combative fat guy can't end in that fat guy lying in a morgue.

It is in fact part of the policemen's profession to learn how to deal effectively with dangerous situations like this without getting themselves hurt as well as the "offending" subject. That's why they have procedures to get for medical attention if serious injury to the "offender" occurrs after a confrontation.

Lofton, it's their profession to deal with that kind of behavior. It was that profession that made them respond to the call in the first place. It's part of the oath they took when becoming police officers.

I will note that the whole situation was not caught on video. We don't know for sure what happened between this guy being passed-out and a "medical concern" to being a "nuisance" and then a dead, formerly combative subject.

To be exact, we don't know what the police said when they arrived on the scene and what the guys mindstate was at that time. All that was seen on video was the guy charging at the police. It doesn't seem at all likely that as soon as they arrived (more than likely without lights or sirens since the Fire Dept./Medics were already on the scene) that the just automatically went after them.

Not saying that they provoked him but police are trained and should be trained on how to de-escalate situations to avoid physical confrontation if at all possible. We don't know if they exhausted all those means... In fact, we don't know what happened before the video-clip seen cross the country.

I heard the audio on Talk Radio. It reflects well on the police officers in the sense that at least verbally they did exactly what they were suppose to do.

The big issue here is if the encounter with a guy of this size and the police attempts to subdue/handcuff him contributed to some type of affixiation. That would be my guess to the actual or one of the contributing cause(s) of death. We had a similar case of an even more threatening situation were that happened to a large combative subject who basically could breath because of the (hyper)ventalation involved with the physical confrontation and police placing him in a prone position while attempting to handcuff him.

In that case and this one, the guy died. Socially, that's hard to accept when this is arguably not a "deadly force" case.

Would you recommend the officers use their guns to stop this guy in this situation? If not... if you can't absolutely say that shooting him is warranted then the fact that he died poses some serious question at least socially about the methods and means of control at the disposal of these officers.

Now you can pontificate all you want but that's the central question here. Cops are commissioned to deal with unruly subjects that have drugs in their system that may be combative and may be twice as big as them. That's part of their job.

Now unless you say every fat guy that would ever dare have used drugs and dare to try to assault a police officer (without a weapon) should be shot on the spot then you rhetoric is as usual... off-the-point, beside-the-point and... pointless.

Take your pick.fro
Well ... I somewhat agree with Lofton {Did I say that?}, that one lessens the chances of getting beat to death, if one does not put themselves in "suspicious situations. But then again, it seems that in many areas of the US, being Black is the only requirement necessary to be considered suspicious.

Maybe there's biased reporting going on here, but I can't recall the last time a White person was beat down (to death) at the hands of law enforcement officers. I can't believe that Blacks are the only suspects that fight (back). This is the issue. If Whites were getting beaten and/or dying at the same rates as Blacks, race would not factor into the equation. But they're not, so race seems to be a factor.
First of all, I do not believe what was stated in the press about this man's drug use. It is unlikely that a man who weighs this much would be a PCP user, as one of the side effects of PCP is, like cocaine, it drastically increases the metabolism. Secondly I have heard the news people literally make up stories that were totally false and this seems to be a growing trend in our society now, along with the news people trying these people in the media with biased opinions, knowing that many people will be swayed by what the news people have to say. And thirdly, while I listened to the police video, I could clearly hear the Black man yelling, "quit hitting me on the back" while he kept trying to put his hands behind his back, the police kept hitting him. Now I wonder how many other people would have just stood there, while they hit them and not try to ward off the blows?

It is human nature to block a blow when being assaulted. We have all seen what happens to a Black man when he just lays down and doesn't resist--(Rodney King). He is likely to be assaulted 40 or 50 times, even after he has been subdued. We have also all seen what happens to a Black man after the handcuffs have been put on him (the teenager at the New York gas station). We have also seen what happens to a Black man who doesn't resist and willingly gives himself to be handcuffed (Ohio man who was slammed to the ground).

We know that there are many people of all races who resist the police, in some fashion, every single day, somewhere, yet it seems the stories about Black people are the ones that make the news most often. The police continue to get away with this kind of abuse without having to do one minute of time for their actions or lose their jobs or suffer any other kind of punishment. And as long as the public is powerless to do anything about it, this trend is going to increase to the point where it will become common place and police will gradually start to just kill people, outright, with no provocation because the public has become desensitized to the violence.

It's as if the powers that be are purposely trying to create retallitory anger in the hearts of Black people in this country, in order to start a race war that will give them an excuse to get rid of more Black people. There is not one of us that this can't happen to. At this very moment in Cleveland, Ohio, the mayor having announced massive layoffs of police and firemen, the policemen have gotten together and working non-stop (house to house searches, guns drawn) to go after as many outstanding warrants as they can--a job they should have been doing all along, but were too busy schlepping off the job of policing and laying in hiding to catch speeders and people with missing tailights and not wearing seat belts. Now my guess is that most of these pickups and harrassments will be perpetrated on Black people. It's as if the police are exacting their revenge, (getting their licks in) before they get the ax. I felt that as angry as they are about loosing their jobs, they would do something drastic like this. They are so mad that they are calling for the mayor to be recalled.
quote:
Originally posted by Kweli4Real:
Well ... I somewhat agree with Lofton {Did I say that?}, that one lessens the chances of getting beat to death, if one does not put themselves in "suspicious situations.
Is this a tongue in cheek statement or you really mean it. Please clarify.

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It is really interesting how every Black man beating by the police seem to be on PCP! Also this brother lost 50lbs in less than twenty four hours. He was a 400lb menacing Black man, but now he is 350lbs. Why is there so much attention giving to his weight? As if he was a 160lb brother he would not have been beating. Don't allow the media to fool you by focusing on this mans weight as a reason for them to beat him as they did. None of the other brothers beating by the police and killed by the police were 300lb plus, so why reference this brother's weight. It is because they have to make him out to be a bigger threat to them than they are to him which justifies the level of force they used.

-------------------------
"We got to organize ourselves, We got to mobilize and there can't be no confusion in our collective solution, If not for ourselves, then for our kids, because we know who our enemy is!"

DPZ "for the hood"

More to come later!

Your Brother Faheem
quote:
Originally posted by jazzdog:
While what happened is horrifying, you can't blame the police for protecting themselves. I guarantee there is nobody on this board if attacked by a 350 lb man that you would not beat the s*** out of him to get him off you and to get him to complied with your commands.
JazzDog,

I agree with you to the extent that when the police officers own life is threaten that then they have every right to "beat the sh*t" out of whoever it is that's threatening them. And size does play a part in that threat but then again so does the ability to fight (i.e. someone with an extensive wrestling or martial arts background) regardless of size...

Anyway... After there is no longer an "imminent" threat against their own lives then it is the policemen's job to show "restraint" - i.e. the "beat the sh*t out of them" mode has to go off for several reasons.

It's a very tough situation but every or even a significant percentage of police confrontation with fat beligerent and combative guys can't end up with the guy dying because of it. I mean... it's not like this is a case of suicide-by-cop where a person with a gun tries to make a police officer shot them.

Yes, this is Monday (or Tuesday) Morning Quarterbacking... but that's what police are paid to do, know how to handle tough situations with the least amount of force (and harm) as possible.

So it's not fair to inject what we would do in their shoes per se. Their standards and purpose for being is to go beyond mere natural reflex responses to situations. That's what they train for.

I guess I didn't hear what CropCircle said he heard about what the guy said and I would like to talk about this in less than emotional terms but perhaps that's not possible.
Being struck with a knight stick on your arms, shoulders, and back should not kill you. Mr. Jones died from heart problems, the abuse of PCP, and the stress of combat which he initiated.

The police did not kill this fellow, they used excessive force when they beat him while he was on the ground, but they did not kill him.

If I was in that situation, I can say that I might have done almost the same exact thing, though more emphasis on the choking of the suspect rather then the beating.

And the man's weight has every bit a bearing on the justification of the use of force. If he was 160, you'd just have to wrestle him into submission, how on earth do you wrestle a wild 400 pound man whose abuse of PCP gives him a lowered tolerance to pain, irrational tendencies towards violence, and an apathy towards one's own safety?

"All answers lie in the balance."
quote:
Being struck with a knight stick on your arms, shoulders, and back should not kill you. Mr. Jones died from heart problems, the abuse of PCP, and the stress of combat which he initiated.

And so you are saying that overweight people that decide to be beligerent and combative with police deserve to die or should expect to die in confrontations with the police?

I mean... seriously... what are we talking about here?

What 350 lb person doesn't have "heart problems"?
What 350 lb person would not have difficulty breathing and surviving a confrontation initiated or not without some complications?

Seriously... Are fat guys on mind altering substances signing a death wish when they deal with police or what?

You might as well line-'em up and shot them all on the spot if that's what you believe. So every drug using fat guy with heart trouble and the urge to take a swing at an officer needs to register for their execution.

Thanks GOSH! I see your point.

(Really...) There has to be a better way to deal with this situation. Excusing it for one or the other doesn't help.

So, yes! People shouldn't use drugs, be fat or have heart problems and likewise police should have have better, safer methods for dealing with fat guys like this.

Is that too much to ask?
quote:
If I was in that situation, I can say that I might have done almost the same exact thing, though more emphasis on the choking of the suspect rather then the beating.
And you say you want to be a police officer with that mentality?

And you honestly think that's the kind of attitude you're suppose to have?

Give me your real name and identifiers so I can alert whatever Dept. you might seek employment from so when the lawsuits start flying at you they will have no excuse for not knowing how unstable you are.

No offense but, trust me, that's not the mindset you're suppose to have going into that profession. Yes you can be a mean SOB when it comes to actual situations where your life is endangered but "choking" as a preferred method of controlling a situation is not a part of police training or recommendations... unless you like liability...
Jazzdog, I have seen the video and I know what the difference is between a small man and a big man; however what I am saying here is that his weight is likened to the wallet in the Dialo case and this is why so much emphasis is being put on his weight. There must be something to justify the actions of the police and this brother being a big man and attacking the police is serving as their justification as Dialo holding his wallet was the justification for being shot over forty times. This brother was screaming something at the cops before he attacked them, do any of you know what he was saying?

-------------------------
"We got to organize ourselves, We got to mobilize and there can't be no confusion in our collective solution, If not for ourselves, then for our kids, because we know who our enemy is!"

DPZ "for the hood"

More to come later!

Your Brother Faheem
quote:
Originally posted by Faheem:
Jazzdog, I have seen the video and I know what the difference is between a small man and a big man; however what I am saying here is that his weight is likened to the wallet in the Dialo case and this is why so much emphasis is being put on his weight. There must be something to justify the actions of the police and this brother being a big man and attacking the police is serving as their justification as Dialo holding his wallet was the justification for being shot over forty times. This brother was screaming something at the cops before he attacked them, do any of you know what he was saying?
From what I heard on a Trucker's Talk Radio show he said something to the effect "My momma told me this would going to happen..."

The only real intelligible part was "My Momma" which was preceded by "REDNECK White Boys" or something very similar to that. Something that the host of this 'citing Fox News' as a reputable source Talk Radio Show thought was relevant which of course is part and parcel of overstating his weight, drug use, etc.

What's relevant is that he attempt to attack the officers and their duty to defend themselves and then control the situation with causing as little harm to themselves and the fat guy.

(It was noted that the video on Fox, etc. did not include the audio. I heard the audio on this Trucker show...)
Nmaginate

I'll adress your responses and statements in a random fashion, sorry.

First off, what I meant by choking is simply a headlock. Have you ever put someone in a headlock? I don't think anyone has ever died from being in a headlock. If you control the head and neck, you basically control the body, therefore it would be tactically advantageous to have your opponent in a headlock. It is extremely difficult for them to harm you, so they can simply exhaust themselves while you hold them in a submission maneuver.

I am not a mean SOB, I am not unstable, and I will not bring severe lawsuits against myself or my department. I have 3 years until I am eligible to be an officer, any "dangerous" mindset I might have can be changed by then. I appreciate you trying to improve me, no offense taken.

Now, to fat guys on mind altering substances signing death wishes in their dealings with police. I never really had a strong opinion on this topic to begin with, so I fear my argument will be weaker then normal.

Tazers are an ideal way to safely take down suspects such as these. They are like guns that have two wires with hooks attatched, they fire I believe around a dozen yards, and once the hooks catch on the skin, the officer can then give them medium amounts of electrical shock until they go down. The shocks usually cause the suspect to fall to the ground, and have minor muscle spasms coupled with an inability to control one's body for about 2-10 minutes. Bodily harm is minimal, and the hooks are removed at a hospital.

This is an alternative to the knight stick.

For the departments that don't have tazers, I'll say this, if you are violent with the police, you should not be surprised if you are harmed, especially if you pose a serious threat to the police (A massive guy high on drugs).

I know that isn't really a counter or a good answer ot your questions, but I really don't know how to answer them right now, I might elaborate later.

By the way, when you say GOSH, is that simply a convenient abbreviation that is capitalized to get my attention and make sure that I know you are addressing me? Or is it supposed somehow to be demeaning and insulting?

"All answers lie in the balance."
quote:
First off, what I meant by choking is simply a headlock. Have you ever put someone in a headlock? I don't think anyone has ever died from being in a headlock. If you control the head and neck, you basically control the body, therefore it would be tactically advantageous to have your opponent in a headlock. It is extremely difficult for them to harm you, so they can simply exhaust themselves while you hold them in a submission maneuver.
Obviously, you know nothing about effective police tactics because... for sure "headlocks" are not a part of the arsenal.

There is no "tactical" advantage to using headlocks. How does that help officers in effecting an arrest?

You might reconsider that or consider an actual police tactics source on this headlock issue. And when you say "CHOKING" don't expect someone to assume you mean something less than that.

BTW, I tend to capitalize most if not everybody's name. I shorten yours for the sake of not butchering the actual spelling. ...I didn't even realize that an insult could be perceived by it. "Oh my gosh!" Is that what you're getting at or are you a little hypersensitive?
I would like to see the entire video of this beating; they are only showing on the news where the officers are savagely beating this man and not what caused the officers to begin to beat him or have reason to; I still think that it is probably all bulshit, in that all the polices have to say is "black/drugs" and that justifies any amount of misconduct or abuse from the police. It looks as if the man was defending himself from the constant blows from the police black sticks; It looks just like the Rodney King video to me. But the police can always justfy abusing blacks, especially a black male, it doesn't matter, it seems if the person was unarmed and was shot 40 times while asleep in a car or was supposedly "acting erratic." Just remember that Nathaniel Jones could have been any black male on this board, or your son, or your brother, or your father, all it would take is someone to call in to the police and say anything that includes any of the words black, black male, black/drugs, black/erractic.
I had to talk with a young black man that had went to the bank to cash his check and while driving into the parking lot he made a mistake and cut off a driver, who he saw immediately get on his cell phone and by the time this guy was coming out of the bank from cashing his check the entire bank was surrounded by police, had he and his friend out spread eagal on the ground as everyone watched in horror or assumption that he must have done something or tried to rob the bank, they were let go after the police were satisfied that they had did nothing--but do you see that all it takes is a phone call from the right sounding voice accusing someone who is black or at least not white(excluding poor white).
Well said Jazzdog, Kweli4Real, and/or a very few others,

"While what happened is horrifying, you can't blame the police for protecting themselves. I guarantee there is nobody on this board if attacked by a 350 lb man that you would not beat the s*** out of him to get him off you and to get him to complied with your commands." by Jazzdog

"Well ... I somewhat agree with Lofton {Did I say that?}, that one lessens the chances of getting beat to death, if one does not put themselves in "suspicious situations." by Kweli4Real

Again, it is foolish to accuse anyone else of wrong doing when you have first attempted to inflict harm on someone else and/or violated the law yourself. Should the other set of individuals being threatened, fired at, hit to inflict bodily harm, etc., be police officers, police officers, like any law abiding citizen or otherwise, are going to defend themselves, to which in many instances police shoot first and ask questions later.

Unlike the common citizen, all police officers are sworn under oath to enforce the law, and licensed to carry firearms, batons, and/or other weapons to subdue anyone who chooses to challenge the legal authority of any peace officer, and/or who may threaten the lives or property of law abiding U.S. citizens. Should anyone be in violation of the law from the very outsight, then the merit in successfully accusing police officers of criminal wrongdoing is even less, because you don't have a legal leg to stand on when you are in violation of the law yourself.

Should a police officer illegally violate your rights as a law abiding U.S. citizen, it would be more productive to remain calm, think clearly, make note of the actions of the police officer or officers involved, get their names, badge numbers, take note of any credible witnesses, and/or other pertinent information so as to successfully file a claim for damages against the police jurisdiction concerned, and/or to prove your own innocence, should this set of circumstances go through the court process.

Attempting to fight back with your fists, or pointing any weapon at a police officer may cost you your life, to which it does not have to be this way. Use you head for a change, Black people, instead of allowing anger to get the best of you, as is pertains to violating the law in the first place, and/or lunging at a police officer(s).

Heck, anyone under the influence of alcohol, illicit drugs such as PCP, should stay inside the house, to lessen the possibility of any confrontation with a police officer.

Should any driver get behind the wheel of a car while under the influence, oh well, it shouldn't be any mystery as to what may follow should the policing authorities stop you.

For a group of individuals who have such contempt for police officers, you are not going to gain any advantage by violating the law in the presence of policing authorities. Those who aim to win in a court of law, will make it their business to be law abiding in the first place, so as to have legal grounds for redress in the event a peace officer, and/or any other government employee illegally violates your property rights, so as to inflict bodily injury or property loss on truly law abiding U.S. citizens.

Sincerely,

Michael Lofton

[This message was edited by Lofton on December 02, 2003 at 05:59 PM.]
This is a simple one.

If you are a Black man (taking drugs or not), you must be prepared to either protect yourself from harm or submit completly to the force before you.

You are not going to get treated fairly, but if you don't survive the incident then you don't get a chance to get any level of justice.

At least Rodney King got some level of post beating justice.

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All I saw was a SHOCK & AWE of metal sticks pummeling an African's body, mainly by 2 cops, although I heard there were 6. I sincerely hope that those cops can sleep peacefully at night, snuggled up in their beds, knowing that they have eliminated a "drug abuser" from the planet. The coroner said it was "homocide", but the cops are not responsible. Did Mr. Jones "homocide" himself? How is that possible? I don't believe many folks could have survived a whipping such as was bestowed upon Mr. Jones. Those wands went all the way from Massachusetts to Florida on his body. May his soul rest in peace; condolences to his family. To me, it was a damn shame. All African mothers, take notice when the doctors say "It's a boy"!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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From what I saw, the police beating him with the batton was the 'lesser' act that could have done to him....Remember the cop was punched and cops have guns. Remove the 'race' and the recent history of the 'Nati'...I would have shot that guy if he lunged at me...that is assuming that the tape is accurate.

Comments here locally on a morning show said that the police tape was 'edited', let's take that into account too. Some 50-97 secs of the tape, judging by what MSNBC or CNN says, is missing. What happened to it?? Please also note that the Rodney King tape was filmed by a private citizen from his porch, this tape is from the police dept...and may have been edited.

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Only a coward would shoot an unarmed man. Police are trained to handle men like this and maintain their bearing while doing so. These cops were out of control. If you think shooting him would have been legit, then you have not thought this through. The shooting of an unarmed citizen is not part of police protocol and this is why they did not pull their guns. If this guy would have had an object in his hand and threatening the police with it, then the use of guns would have been an option, however the police are not suppose to shoot unarmed men. Shooting Nate was never an option the police had available to them. So proclaiming beating Nate with their "batons" is the lesser act is a lie. The very reason Nate was not shot is the same reason Rodney king was not shot, you can not shoot unarmed citizens.

-------------------------
"We got to organize ourselves, We got to mobilize and there can't be no confusion in our collective solution, If not for ourselves, then for our kids, because we know who our enemy is!"

DPZ "for the hood"

More to come later!

Your Brother Faheem
quote:
From what I saw, the police beating him with the batton was the 'lesser' act that could have done to him....Remember the cop was punched and cops have guns. Remove the 'race' and the recent history of the 'Nati'...I would have shot that guy if he lunged at me...that is assuming that the tape is accurate
So every police assualt without a weapon or at least every one involving a fat guy you're in favor of just shooting people for taking a swing at a cop?

Do you know how many times police get in fist fights with people? Do you really feel shooting people is the preferred way to end a fist fight?

FOr sure, the police especially the one attacked was arguably within his "right" to shoot the guy but do you honestly think that what should have been done?

Seriously... should police use the your own personal standards or what is the reasonable consensus of what police in general think SHOULD be done in a situation?

I submit that unless you have been trained as a police officer and are seriously considering the consquences and repercussions that police must face then saying what you would do is irrelevant. I think they made the proper shoot or don't shoot decision but the rest of the tactics could use some refining.

Apparently wacking this guy with their batons was not going to make him comply. It would seem that it either had no effect at all or it quite possibly pissed him off even futher.

Police are suppose to find that happy medium of the right amount of force that effectively gains compliance. I can understand that they continued to use their batons out of desperation and I think a proper desire not to use their guns because they could conceive of stopping him without killing him...

I'm telling you from what I know and think may have played a factor in the guys death is that that type of struggle particularly with a fat guy lying prone on the ground while they struggled with him and all his own weight as well as the force of theirs restricted his breathing... You can say that it's not ultimately the police fault and I would agree for the most part but what we don't know for sure is how and what caused this guy "turn" violent.

Police are trained in how to de-escalate situations and not contribute to creating confrontations by not approaching situations with the wrong "bad ass" or "hard ass" attitude, when possible. I'm sure most people can envision having if they have not had verbal confrontations with police because of how the officer "approached" them.

That's what at issue here along with the real life & death consequences.

I'm in favor of police protecting themselves but I'm not in favor of them being quick to decide that their life is being threatened when a guy takes a swing at them.

"He threw a punch. So I shot him."

I don't think that will hold up in the court of public opinion if at all in the court of law if we really weigh things by the most objective standards...
quote:
Originally posted by Faheem:
Only a coward would shoot an unarmed man. Police are trained to handle men like this and maintain their bearing while doing so. These cops were out of control. If you think shooting him would have been legit, then you have not thought this through. The shooting of an unarmed citizen is not part of police protocol and this is why they did not pull their guns. If this guy would have had an object in his hand and threatening the police with it, then the use of guns would have been an option, however the police are not suppose to shoot unarmed men. Shooting Nate was never an option the police had available to them. So proclaiming beating Nate with their "batons" is the lesser act is a lie. The very reason Nate was not shot is the same reason Rodney king was not shot, you can not shoot unarmed citizens.

-------------------------
"We got to organize ourselves, We got to mobilize and there can't be no confusion in our collective solution, If not for ourselves, then for our kids, because we know who our enemy is!"

DPZ "for the hood"

More to come later!

Your Brother Faheem


how would the cops know he was unarmed?? What about that punch?? He knock one police officer over with that one. Having said that...I still want to know more before reaching a conclusion. Cops have to 'react' to the situation.

***********************************************************
'Sometimes life is obscene' - Black Crowes

Commerical Hall of Fame - All time list

'Who in the hell left the gate open???' Confused

'Somebody put roots on me' Frown

'I've fallen, and I can't give up!!!' broscream
quote:
Originally posted by Nmaginate:
quote:
From what I saw, the police beating him with the batton was the 'lesser' act that could have done to him....Remember the cop was punched and cops have guns. Remove the 'race' and the recent history of the 'Nati'..._I would have shot that guy if he lunged at me..._that is assuming that the tape is accurate
So every police assualt without a weapon or at least every one involving a fat guy you're in favor of just shooting people for taking a swing at a cop?

Do you know how many times police get in fist fights with people? Do you really feel shooting people is the preferred way to end a fist fight?

FOr sure, the police especially the one attacked was arguably within his "right" to shoot the guy but do you honestly think that what should have been done?

Seriously... should police use the your own personal standards or what is the reasonable consensus of what police in general think SHOULD be done in a situation?

I submit that unless you have been trained as a police officer and are seriously considering the consquences and repercussions that police must face then saying what you would do is irrelevant. I think they made the proper shoot or don't shoot decision but the rest of the tactics could use some refining.

Apparently wacking this guy with their batons was not going to make him comply. It would seem that it either had no effect at all or it quite possibly pissed him off even futher.

Police are suppose to find that happy medium of the right amount of force that effectively gains compliance. I can understand that they continued to use their batons out of desperation and I think a proper desire not to use their guns because they could conceive of stopping him without killing him...

I'm telling you from what I know and think may have played a factor in the guys death is that that type of struggle particularly with a fat guy lying prone on the ground while they struggled with him and all his own weight as well as the force of theirs restricted his breathing... You can say that it's not ultimately the police fault and I would agree for the most part but what we don't know for sure is how and what caused this guy "turn" violent.

Police are trained in how to de-escalate situations and not contribute to creating confrontations by not approaching situations with the wrong "bad ass" or "hard ass" attitude, when possible. I'm sure most people can envision having if they have not had verbal confrontations with police because of how the officer "approached" them.

That's what at issue here along with the real life & death consequences.

I'm in favor of police protecting themselves but I'm not in favor of them being quick to decide that their life is being threatened when a guy takes a swing at them.

"He threw a punch. So I shot him."

I don't think that will hold up in the court of public opinion if at all in the court of law if we really weigh things by the most objective standards...


police enter situations and have to make quick assessments of that said situation. How do they know he doesn't have a gun. Those things are usually determined later. The guys was resisting arrest and took a swing at the officer...that could lead one to believe that he had something to hide. The coroner's report say that Mr. Jones had PCP in his system. If that can be confirmed, then the drug may have lead to Mr. Jones' behavior..which you must at least admit is a 'little' over the top..unless you regularly 'take swings' at cops. People under the influence of drugs are not 'rational' and cannot be 'talked to' to get that happy medium. After the punch, i doubt 'Officer Friendly' is going to act too 'friendly' to Mr. Jones.

***********************************************************
'Sometimes life is obscene' - Black Crowes

Commerical Hall of Fame - All time list

'Who in the hell left the gate open???' Confused

'Somebody put roots on me' Frown

'I've fallen, and I can't give up!!!' broscream
quote:
After the punch, i doubt 'Officer Friendly' is going to act too 'friendly' to Mr. Jones.

It's not about being "friendly". It's about doing their job.

FYI, I am a police officer. I've merely been sharing issues that we have to grapple with and things I know to be issues both on the street and the type of training or lessons that we draw from situations like that. Taking a human life is serious business for people who have a conscious. And as a police officer and knowing how other police officers handle situations with people who are on drugs, etc. I'm offering so friendly advice or rather things to consider (because that's what we do).

I'm not one and my department is not one that just wipes it's hands of situations that are tragic like that. There's a serious human side to both sides of the issue that is not so black and white. And, yes, there are plenty of times when we or police in general can deal with drugged up people, deal with the anxiety of being attacked and not make a spectacle of the situation.

That's what we strive for in our tactical approach to situation when at all possible.

Just for your information...
Only thing this brother was armed with was outdated bad dance moves. Did you see him doing the Robot in white castle? Roll Eyes

-------------------------
"We got to organize ourselves, We got to mobilize and there can't be no confusion in our collective solution, If not for ourselves, then for our kids, because we know who our enemy is!"

DPZ "for the hood"

More to come later!

Your Brother Faheem
On a more serious note, I believe the family as far as the character of this brother. Here you have a 40yr old man, that apparently has no criminal past and touched the lives of all those whom he came in contact with. You better believe if this brother had a criminal past we would know about it already and this is why they are playing up his weight and alleged drug use.

-------------------------
"We got to organize ourselves, We got to mobilize and there can't be no confusion in our collective solution, If not for ourselves, then for our kids, because we know who our enemy is!"

DPZ "for the hood"

More to come later!

Your Brother Faheem
quote:
how would the cops know he was unarmed?? What about that punch??
This can be WHAT IF-ed to death.

If the guy had a gun? Why would he bother lunging at an officer? If his intent was to kill the officer why not just start shooting or using whatever weapon he had?

How many people you know who have weapons on them start fist fights? Again, police deal with fist fights as part of their jobs. And I doubt many are thinking, "Well since he took a punch at me, I think that means he has a gun or weapon he wants to use against me."

The weapons that are there for sure are the police officers'. Those weapons are the ones they know about and are concerned about for sure and rightfully so.

It's a jump to go automatically from a fist fight to this guy is trying to kill me. An officers mindset should be aware of that but making a snap decision like that has some serious social implications.

Again, police deal with it all the time without pulling a gun everytime someone takes a swing at them. And when someone does throw a punch there is no time to be think about, "Does he have a weapon"... first things first and officer must protect himself and once he gains control of the situation then he can be concerned about weapons.

The guy whether he was high or not clearly didn't want to be arrested. Part of the issue, beyond whatever made him think he was going to be arrested, is if police had grounds to arrest him or not... and exactly what the nature of the call was, what the other emergency services knew about this guys behavior...

It's gonna be a little hard to say that this guy just snapped once he was awaken from his drugged/druken stupor and just started swinging...

And again if police shot everybody that took a swing at them, I guarantee you, you and plenty more people would have a problem with that type of mentality.
quote:
On a more serious note, I believe the family as far as the character of this brother. Here you have a 40yr old man, that apparently has no criminal past and touched the lives of all those whom he came in contact with. You better believe if this brother had a criminal past we would know about it already and this is why they are playing up his weight and alleged drug use.

You have some info. or articles on what his family had to say?

As far as "playing up" things...
I found this article of a similar arrest-death scenario with (I guess) an exception of the size of the subject...

Man, 21, dies after arrest by Shepherdsville police

Notice that the story already within two days of the incident has the parent(s) take on the tragedy, describing with sorrow the mental illness involved... It is all too curious how the same type of coverage doesn't occur in situation like this one in Cincy.

The whole human interest angle is so conspicious in its absence there.
And in line with the new legal practices of the day in America he would have sued the cops for a couple of million dollars for shooting him.

I don't know how other people were taught to shoot but I was taught to shoot for the center of mass of the body which is the chest/heart area. Shooting people in arms and legs only happens in the movies.

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