Police Brutality vs. Spanking your child (a.k.a child abuse)

What racial double standard are you referring to? You posted stats indicating that more than half of all child abuse victims are white. One may then infer that most people being charged by police with child abuse are white, not black.

Elsewhere in your same post you talk about police using force upon people who run from them - apparantly as an example to support your statement that "police have a license to man-handle or beat the crap out of our children". But the only way to demonstrate a racial double standard here is to demonstrate that white people would NOT have force applied upon them in the same circumstances.

Not to say that there aren't different standards in various parts of the U.S., but your attempt to draw a causal relation between child abuse charges and police use of force strikes me as being incoherent.

quote:

Originally posted by Billygoat:
One may then infer that most people being charged by police with child abuse are white, not black.

That may be true, although that may not be what Heru meant to imply. Statistically,a higher percentage of children's services cases (DCF and the like) are poor, non-white single mothers charged with abuse in varying forms.

quote:

Statistically,a higher percentage of children's services cases (DCF and the like) are poor, non-white single mothers charged with abuse in varying forms.

Well, doesn't that contradict the stats posted by Herustar?

But even if a greater proportion of black parents were being charged for child abuse, I fail to see a deliberate conspiracy of any kind. It would be more of an indication of poverty and lack of education, it seems to me.

Actually, what I found more interesting in Herustar's stats was that most abusers of children were women. Is it because most of those women are single moms with little or no support? Or do those stats transcend income levels and marriage status? We'd need to see the numbers, but I'd bet that it's poorer women taking care of kids who's dads aren't around. Just a guess, though.

quote:

Originally posted by Billygoat:
Well, doesn't that contradict the stats posted by Herustar?

Nope. Even the pbs story (which actually focused on a foster care case that resulted in death) acknowledged that white folks had a higher percentage of abuse, but that didn't translate into their kids being taken away or them being dragged into the court system with social workers, foster care and the like. It even made pointed reference to the derision poor mothers (yes, there is a class element to the disparity) were subjected to by case workers, not because they were accused of any type of abuse, but because they were poor and needed assistance. Frequently, requests for assistance set the stage for questionable charges of abuse and/or neglect against poor mothers.

Police brutality from my pov is synonomous with racial profiling..........

If people are supposed to discipline their children with their hands tied behind their backs, why are we forced to accept police use of physical force?

It's a racial double-standard in my eyes because, I feel like they legislate laws that force a black man to walk a tight rope throughout society, but at the same time force us to teach our children how to walk the tight-rope, blind-folded with our hands tied behind our backs.

The statistics were interesting to me because they portray the same picture that we see everyday in the maldistribution of harsh punishments. Blacks are supposed to be these habitual criminals that need to be detained, but we all know who commits the most heinous crimes, and the most crimes in general,(no statistics I don't care how construed will ever convince me that a minority(12.3% of the population) commits more crime than a self-serving, greedy, inhumane majority.

quote:

Race and Ethnicity. In FY 2000 African American children represented the largest share
of children in foster care (41%), as shown in Figure 2. White children accounted for the
second largest share (40%), followed by Hispanic children (15%).
Disproportionality. African American and Native American (Indian/Alaskan Native)
children are overrepresented in foster care when compared to their representation in the
total U.S. child population.2 Specifically, African American children constitute 15% of
the U.S. child population, but 41% of the foster care population. Native American
children make up 1% of the U.S. population, but comprise 2% of the foster care
population.
In contrast, Hispanic, Asian, and multiple-race children are underrepresented in foster
care compared to their representation in the U.S. child population. This is particularly
pronounced for white children, who make up 61% of the U.S. population, but 40% of the
foster care population. Figure 2 presents the proportion of children in foster care
compared to their share of the total U.S. child population by race and ethnicity.

How do these statistics coexist with the fact that white women are doing most of the abuse? If their is a greater portion of white children being abused by parents, then why doesn't that reflect in the foster care statitistics?

quote:

Originally posted by HeruStar:
How do these statistics coexist with the fact that white women are doing most of the abuse? If their is a greater portion of white children being abused by parents, then why doesn't that reflect in the foster care statitistics?

"While middle and upper middle class people do occasionally get visited by child protective workers, they are usually able to fend off an investigation by calling in attorneys who protect their interests. By contrast, poorer people who become entangled with the system are often unaware of their rights and unable to afford good legal representation. They are more often "used" to government intervention in their lives and more likely to live in neighborhoods where informing is part of the culture."

I think that's a valid explanation for the disproportionate number of our children in the system. However, I would add that social workers show more deference to white middle-class mothers than they do for the poor and non-whites and that deference, or reverence, blinds them to seeing what is really there.

I don't think we are the majority in poverty. Haven't found the statistics yet, but I would assume they would fall along the lines of, blacks having a misproportionate representation of poverty, but not the majority. Which leaves me to believe that, based on the statistics of African-American in foster care, you are more likely to lose custody of your child (whatever class) if you are BLACK.

quote:

III. INCARCERATION AND RACE
The disproportionate representation of black Americans in the U.S. criminal justice system is well documented.17 Blacks comprise 13 percent of the national population, but 30 percent of people arrested, 41 percent of people in jail,18 and 49 percent of those in prison.19 Nine percent of all black adults are under some form of correctional supervision (in jail or prison, on probation or parole), compared to two percent of white adults. 20 One in three black men between the ages of 20 and 29 was either in jail or prison, or on parole or probation in 1995.21 One in ten black men in their twenties and early thirties is in prison or jail. 22 Thirteen percent of the black adult male population has lost the right to vote because of felony disenfranchisement laws.23

We should not represent 41% of those in foster care, 41% of those in jail, and 49% of those in prison.

quote:

Originally posted by HeruStar:
I don't think we are the majority in poverty.

I don't think I said that.

quote:

Originally posted by HeruStar:
Police brutality from my pov is synonomous with racial profiling..........

This may be going off topic, but I have to ask: how on earth is police brutality synonimous with racial profiling? Do the police in the U.S. never get accused of excessive force against people who are white? I'm sure that they do...Ruby Ridge and Waco are two of the most famous examples brought up, usually by white right wing extremists. I'm quite sure as well that a white person who is stupid enough to run from the police is not going to be treated with kids gloves. Hell, there are plenty of examples of police using force against white suspects on TV and the Internet.

This topic may need it's own thread...sorry, not trying to divert from the original post by going off on a tangent.

Even people in the child protection business will admit that there is a difference between discipling your child and abusing them. You should never slap a child in the face and any striking be done with a open hand not a fist or pecan tree branch (ah! memories). The only difference being that if the child is in foster car, striking them is completely not allowed. I know this as my wife and I are part of the foster care system here in Oregon, they stressed that while you may spank your own, you never touch that foster child.

Being 46 years old I can remember getting my ass tore up by my parents who were raised in Mississippi back in the day when knocking a child out for f***ing up was normal. I whipped my kids as they were growing up, note that they is a difference in whipping your child and freaking abusing them, as long as the spanking is not abusive I see no problem. I've seem plenty of kids more white then black incidentally in public who need a good ass beating because they are losing their freaking mine and embarassing mom and dad at the same time.

I have no problem admitting that if getting my ass whupped when I was wrong taught me right and wrong and kept me out of jail and some other shit, then I am a better person because of it.

Wooden pot spoon was my mom's weapon of choice. my older brother would run and that just made it worse (was funny in a twisted way). I just stood an took it as she was less likely to prolong it. I can honestly say that when I got hit I deserved it so i took my licks.
The worse was if my mom decided to not mete out the punishment but to turn it over to my father. have you ever been "cuffed" in the head?- this is a openhand stike (not slap) that causes you to see stars when delivered by a 6 ft 230 lb man- it was best not to run...

My parents did what they did and it was over and not spoken of nor did they hold a grudge and to this day we all laugh about it especially since my mother still say that my brother owes her a wooden spoon for the one she broke when she hit him .

Out of my family only my younger brother has ever been arrested and jailed and that was when he was drunk and had passed out between two cars in January. The police were called and took him to jail and called my father. My brother did not recieve a beating from the police and he would have died of exposure had he not been found by them.

Anyway enough of the flashbacks.

1- there is a difference between discipline and abuse. Look at the root word which is disciple (or follower)it has nothing to do with beating or hitting and everything to do with leading our children on or to the right path in life. By being living examples and by setting reasonable consequences for bad behaviour we can be better parents and have better children w/o resorting to violence.
My daughters know that if I say something that I will follow through and my wife is the same way.

2- As far as the police beating children I guess if we as parents fail to do our job then our children are gonna get beat. If you probably took the time to talk to a police officer you probably would find that they would rather that parents did their job of properly disciplining their children as opposed to wasting the officer's time.

3- It keeps getting said but few seem to subscribe to the idea that parents need to parent their children.
In my neighbourhood all the families look out for our children and if the kids do wrong we tell the other parents and we take action. We do not subscribe to the "not my little angel" routine.

quote:

As far as the police beating children I guess if we as parents fail to do our job then our children are gonna get beat

This is the point I'm trying to counter. How does a black community relent to police vigilanteism, while accepting/condoning legislative limits on our cultural practice of raising our children?

Seems to me like they don't want us to raise our children. The only remedy they have for blacks is some form alienation from flourishing, living and loving life in a black community. Whether it be fostercare (no disrespect to jazzdog... one of the exceptions), or jail/prison.

In my experience (5yrs of my elmentary adolescence), these foster parents are emotionally disinterested/detached from the childs psychosocial and emotional development.

Blacksanction,

You in particular have a wierd affinity for policemen, and you constantly justify thier tactics, or come to their defense when they've done something questionable. My only problem with police/legislation/judges/lawyers, is that they are not only justifiably the opposition to the true criminals in the black community, but they are the opposition to the law abiding citizens as well. Do you not feel that the relationship between (law-abiding) blacks and police is incompatible? Do you think we honestly share the same interests? Are you not suspicious of an ulterior motive?

I think that it is too easy to make the police and whites as the boogeyman for all that is wrong in our community.
It is easy for us to say that we need to take ownership but then we drop the ball.
We need to get folks to stop dreaming and to live in reality.

1- The majority of us are not going to move to africa and live happily-ever-after
2- Whites are not going to disappear or give up power.
3- We have to stop killing our people. We have to become intolerant of the people who make victims of us.
4- The only conspiracy is that of continued ignorance within our community and that is what is relied upon to stiffle progress in the community.

I have family members in the West Indies who are police and the problems are the same (and they are blacks policing blacks).

No matter where you go you will find the same issues. It is easier to cling to the hope that your shit life is the result of outside conspiracies than the piss poor choices that you have made.

I find that self-reflection is lost on the majority of people.

I would rather see that we co-opt the system via more black lawyers, police and judges. The system is gonno be here when we die. We can try to fight it or look for weaknesses and make it ours.

quote:

Originally posted by HeruStar:
Parents have no license to put their hands on their own kids which is our[black community) best deterrent from them getting beat by policemen.

Most of those getting chased by cops probably got their asses beat at home.

Isn't it funny we're not allowed to hit our children according to the European, yet he can shoot our kids, throw 'em in prison where everything under the sun happens to 'em while they're there and can execute 'em too. Today, there are kids so big, they'll take on their parents if provoked. I often wonder, if the tables were switched and we were making all these damn rules for the European to follow, how long would that last??? I'll bet a nanosecond, before they'd try to eliminate us all. I believe in there being repercussions for your actions. Case closed.

IMO, somebody should charge these abusive cops, who wrongly beat/arrest our kids, for not only false arrest but for also corrupting a minor.

You're right Huey, but the kids are prey when they're out strolling around at night, unchaperoned by an adult. My rule was: Streetlights come on; in the house. They still apply for the new kids on the block. Europeans get extremely suspicious when they see more than one African boy walking the streets at night and it puts them in unnecessary danger, both from them and their own.

I honestly believed that my parents would kill me if I did something terrible. I respected their authority and they demanded and commanded that I respect all persons in positions of authority at all times.

There never was a time when a news article had headlines such as "Mother and Son Arrested" because they operated a meth lab together. Children are raising children and they are not qualified.

It is not true that a parent is not permitted to spank their child. Parents can not abuse their children and the difference is great.

I would dare any child of mine to report me to human services over a spanking. I would spank them again, pack their clothes, and call 911 myself. Then when the police did not take the child to human services or me to jail, I would tag that azz again. I run my house - my children don't. It doesn't take abuse to discipline children, but you have to be willing to pick your battles and win the ones you pick. Respect is mandatory - not optional. Obediance is mandatory - not optional.

Police brutality, IMHO, has nothing to do with disciplining children. There are some power hungry, racist police officers out there, but there are decent officers as well.

If children had their butts in their homes, reading, doing homework, or interacting with family members instead of running the streets and playing video games, there would be fewer children in the criminal justice system.

quote:

Originally posted by Sandye:

I would dare any child of mine to report me to human services over a spanking. I would spank them again, pack their clothes, and call 911 myself. Then when the police did not take the child to human services or me to jail, I would tag that azz again.

Spoken like a true black mother...

There are two Bible verses that I recently read about this matter:

Proverbs 19:18 says "discipline your sone, for there is hope; do not set your heart on puttnf him to death

Proverbs 23:13 says
"Do not withhold discipline from a child; if you strike him with a rod, he will not die."

So it'd be against my religion not to spank my children.