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quote:
Originally posted by Nmaginate:
quote:
Educated minds ask questions, they think, indeed a whole generation was being taught not to trust what they were being told by those in the majority. This could not be allowed to happen - so they simply put a stop to it. Budgets slashed, artists let go, there was no more money in the "declining" music industry. Until gangsta rap came into play. Suddenly, all kinds of money could be found to promote gangsta rappers, before they sold any records.

There are no Black owned media outlets. We do not push the images - they do.

Point Of Information:

Didn't Gangster Rap (or at least early "Ghetto Fabulous, Look At Me" Hip Hip) and Concious Rap co-exist at one point?

I, for one, remember the dialogue or rather the Calling Out and Accountability Conscious Rappers called their less concious or non-conscious counterparts to pay heed to. And, either as a result of that "dialogue" or Gangster Raps own introspection (Tupac, Ice Cube) those less than full-time conscious rappers at least spoke about consciousness at some time one some things.

Anyway... please clear me up on the actual historical development. But, obviously, I agree that position like Jazz Dogs are, at best, exaggerated.

I don't fault him, however, for wanting to Accentuate The Positive. By all means we should take the attitude that we "control" the images "we" put out. By all means we should let our voices be heard as it relates to the negative images promoted by "our" art form.

But, if we're going to take ownership?
Where are our rich and powerful when it comes to this discussion? Why are they MIA?

If anything, we should hold them (not just those in the Rap Industry) accountable for not counter-balancing those images. (And that was sort of my point about Conscious Rap and Gangster Rap co-existing. There was a counter-balance then.)

We have all these people complaining about what rap music is doing to our communities but where is the Bill Cosby type money, power and influence in presenting an alternative?

I would like for the "we push these images" crowd to detail how we stop pushing them with respect to a whole industry that has it's economics based on pushing these images.

AUDIO is right. Profit Motive reigns supreme but any serious questioning of "the system" is inherently seen as counterproductive to the Profit Motive of, dare I say, WHITE SUPREMACY.

So, yeah... sure "they" would allow the Edutainment to go on for a while... as long as the Profit Benefits outweighed the potential (problematic) Subordination Costs. Like the brother said: That Edutainment Couldn't Be Allowed To Continue.


So we in the "we push the images" crowd should just accept the idea that we are going to sell our soul for ahand full of gold coin and not said anything. That despite the negative image and results of the product we just can't do anything because of economics. Well if that is the attitude then we should never again complain about Koreans building liquer stores in black neighborhoods or complain when companies develop and push products strictly at the black community that they dare not sell to anybody else.

Because after all its just business as usual. bang
Commentary: Bert Williams Wore Blackface in 1905, and in 2005, it's our Young Men Who Wear Masks
Date: Thursday, March 24, 2005
By: Wayne Dawkins, BlackAmericaWeb.com


HAMPTON, Va. – Bert Williams, the talented black vaudeville performer of about a century ago, wore masks, writer Leonard Pitts told a packed room at Hampton University. Williams' physical mask was the blackface makeup that put him in character as the dumb, lazy black male that pleased white audiences and reinforced their sense of racial superiority.

Yet Williams [1874-1922] wore an undercover mask: he hid his intellect from whites. Williams read Mark Twain and cerebral European thinkers like Kant and Voltaire, said Pitts.

Bert Williams was living the life of many black males defined by memorable lines from "We Wear the Mask" by poet Paul Lawrence Dunbar [1872-1906]:

We wear the mask that grins and lies,
It hides our cheeks and shades our eyes,
This debt we pay to human guile;
With torn and bleeding hearts we smile,
And mouth with myriad subtleties.
Why should the world be overwise,
In counting all our tears and sighs?
Nay, let them only see us, while
We wear the mask.


Williams, whose plans to study engineering were derailed, went instead into showbiz and made his living depicting blacks in unflattering roles. Williams hid his intellect because in Jim Crow America, it was a likely ticket to losing work and starving.

Black America no longer is burdened by Jim Crow America; that ugly bird flew the coop a half-century ago.

So, Pitts asked rhetorically, why are so many young black men wearing masks?

He was talking about entertainers like 50 Cent and Snoop Dogg, who project the black male to white America as thuggish, anti-intellectual and oversexed. That posturing plays to whites' negative assumptions.

Meanwhile, that posturing influences too many young blacks who are tricked into thinking they are experiencing authentically "black" behavior.

Pitts, the widely syndicated columnist, was among several presenters who told 1,000 people at the 27th National Conference on the Black Family on March 17th that it's time for young black males to take their masks off.

Pitts addressed a session called "Should We Challenge the Culture of our ˜Sons'?" That question, Pitts said was so self-evident, he wondered if he was set up with a trick question.

Yes, yes, of course black America should challenge the culture of their sons because many of them are in trouble.

More of them are in the criminal justice system than in college. I see this on the ground as an adjunct professor. In two of my large classes, women outnumber men four- and five-to-one.

At a session on black women and HIV, presenters said the usual suspects behind black women who are infected 25 times more frequently than white women were black men.

And there is this irony: hip-hop culture is created and manufactured by young blacks, yet most of the product is purchased by white customers. Yup, that's what Akil Kennedy, co-founder of the Journal of Hip-Hop, and Cori Murray, an editor an Essence magazine, reported at another session.

Unfortunately hip-hop's most commercially-successful stuff plays to negative stereotypes of blacks. Locally, hip-hop enthusiasts in neighbor city Newport News were annoyed that 50-Cent hurled insults at their town in his new CD, "The Massacre."

The feuding was front-page news for several days in the so-called "white" press. So what did consumers do? Rush to stores in waves and buy the offending CD.

Before that skirmish, 50 Cent was mentioned in the same breath with recent gunplay outside a New York radio station.

Meanwhile, fawning fans of girl rapper Lil' Kim were unmoved that she was convicted of lying to a federal grand jury about a shooting that involved black men.

A message I heard from Pitts and others was stop blaming the media for showing negative images of young blacks. Too often, blacks serve up pathology buffet-style.

Young black males can grow up to be anything in America: rap stars, pro ballplayers, but much more than that, white- and blue-collar professionals, faithful husbands, loving dads, civic leaders, visionary business moguls.

Entertainer Bert Williams wore a mask, circa 1905, because being his natural black self then could get him unemployed or even lynched. Williams wore a mask then, but in 2005, the misleading masks many young black males wear must come off.
quote:
Originally posted by jazzdog:

So we in the "we push the images" crowd should just accept the idea that we are going to sell our soul for ahand full of gold coin and not said anything.
JazzDog... that's not a response to anything I've said. I've said nothing about accepting anything.
quote:
But, obviously, I agree that position like Jazz Dogs are, at best, exaggerated.

I don't fault him, however, for wanting to Accentuate The Positive. By all means we should take the attitude that we "control" the images "we" put out. By all means we should let our voices be heard as it relates to the negative images promoted by "our" art form.

But, if we're going to take ownership?
Where are our rich and powerful when it comes to this discussion? Why are they MIA?
What part of *BY ALL MEANS* don't you understand?

Now, as for my comments to which you responded:
quote:
I would like for the "we push these images" crowd to detail how we stop pushing them with respect to a whole industry that has it's economics based on pushing these images.
One, you don't have to exaggerate to make a point if and when it has merit. That's my point. Obviously, there is some reason why you feel you have to resort to hyperbole...

Like I said, I don't fault you for trying to ACCENTUATE THE POSITIVE. But, none of that makes your point any more accurate. None of what we should be doing and can do, detracts from the fact that the Industry and our images are controlled by people other than ourselves.

It goes without saying that we play a part in that. But it is not honest, intellectually or otherwise, to say we have (ultimate) control over the "our" images. PERIOD.

Your admirable will, desire and determination to do something about that and the actual statement of facts & reality are two different things.

Again: What part of *BY ALL MEANS* don't you understand?

I simply went on to ask you or whoever...
What do you feel we can do about it in a realistic manner? One that actually produces the desired end?

Emotional rants don't serve as answers. Because I'm not willing to go there with you on all the exaggerated BS, don't take my pointing the flaws out in your logic as being some "Do Nothing" or "We Can't Do Anything About It" position.

What I did say, even in that post, demonstrated otherwise.
quote:
If anything, we should hold them (not just those in the Rap Industry) accountable for not counter-balancing those images.
What part of that sounds like a "Do Nothing", "We're Powerless" position, JazzDog?

It's something just like that... that I'm asking you to forward - i.e. tell us what we should and can do.

I, obviously, believe we have at the very least the ability ECONOMICALLY (that's why I asked about "our rich") to try to counter-balance those negative images. Let's get pasted all the pettiness and you tell me (us) what you have in mind as it relates to how to take control of these images.

I would appreciate that.
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So we in the "we push the images" crowd should just accept the idea that we are going to sell our soul for ahand full of gold coin and not said anything.
That type of rhetoric doesn't help us move forward either, JazzDog. I'm hoping my questiion to you will...

DETAIL HOW YOU THINK WE CAN/SHOULD STOP "PUSHING THESE IMAGES"...

Thank You...
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quote:
Originally posted by Nmaginate:
Point Of Information:

Didn't Gangster Rap (or at least early "Ghetto Fabulous, Look At Me" Hip Hip) and Concious Rap co-exist at one point...

Yes, they did coexist for a short period of time, and in fact still do. I think the point is that conscious rap was the dominant art form and was systematically eliminated... with the quickness!
quote:
But, if we're going to take ownership?
Where are our rich and powerful when it comes to this discussion? Why are they MIA...

As per usual, they are in their ivory towers... letting them "eat cake".

quote:
If anything, we should hold them (not just those in the Rap Industry) accountable for not counter-balancing those images...

Can I get an amen??!!

quote:
From JazzDog:
So we in the "we push the images" crowd should just accept the idea that we are going to sell our soul for ahand full of gold coin and not said anything. That despite the negative image and results of the product we just can't do anything because of economics. Well if that is the attitude then we should never again complain about Koreans building liquer stores in black neighborhoods or complain when companies develop and push products strictly at the black community that they dare not sell to anybody else.

Because after all its just business as usual.

WE do not own rec. cos. WE do not own TV networks. WE do not own radio stations. WE do not own distribution outlets. WE do not own record stores...

WE do not push the images. The images are pushed by others... if you do not have alternatives, the tendency is to accept what is available.

As far as koreans or in fact anybody opening establishments in our neighborhoods, if you don't like the way you are treated when you go to that business, dont go back, don't let your kids go back, in fact, you should encourage others not to go back.

SUPPORT BLACK-OWNED BUSINESSES.
quote:
Originally posted by Nmagainate:
I would like for the "we push these images" crowd to detail how we stop pushing them with respect to a whole industry that has it's economics based on pushing these images.


Well, how about we tell that industry that our men will no longer be exploited through stereotypical thug-like imagery to fatten their pockets? Or that our young women will not continue to put on thongs and halter tops and roll their asses in front of the camera?? Perhaps we actually teach our young people to have more pride, better morals, more self-worth/self-value than to allow themselves to be used in such a manner? Stop aiding and abetting that industry in the promotion of our own negative imagery? Not really give a damn about their economics considering that fact that they are not our economics anyway?

Confused

Just some suggestions. Smile
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WE do not own rec. cos. WE do not own TV networks. WE do not own radio stations. WE do not own distribution outlets. WE do not own record stores...
Anyone from the "We Push These Images" crowd want to quantify our influence/power as it relates to those parts of the Industry we obviously DO NOT OWN???

Beyond that though... can somebody... anybody DETAIL what we can do about these negative images?

Simply stating "WE NEED TO" doesn't cut it.
Erroneously stating "We Push These Images" (as if we do it alone and have complete, total and absolute control over them) doesn't cut.

What can we do?

I've suggested that we hold our rich/powerful accountable for at least doing our level best to provide an alternative. If that's not practical, do-able or whatever... WHAT IS???

Answers, suggestions, comments please...
Aside from what I've already posted above ... I guess I could add that we, as consumers, could stop giving our own financial support to the cause by buying the product. Or perhaps become much more vocal and selective on those venues we give our money to. We could demand a little more respectability and become less critical of those who do dare to speak out and more so of those that don't.
quote:
We could demand a little more respectability and become less critical of those who do dare to speak out and more so of those that don't.
ER...
When you criticize then the criticism you lobby by all means should be scrutinized.

As I said to JazzDog...
When and if one's position has merit, then it makes no sense to exaggerate about the situation as if that helps strengthen one's position.

quote:
Well, how about we tell that industry that our men will no longer be exploited through stereotypical thug-like imagery to fatten their pockets?
And the Industry is gonna say... "Okay?" And our young men and women are going to too? Just from us saying, speaking and telling?

Umm... What alternatives are we going to offer these young men and women once we stop "talking"?

I mean... they're making money off of this stuff. Not that I approve or anything like that. But this is akin to the Drug epidemic. Has the "Just Say No" campaign made a dent yet?

To be honest, it seems as if very little of these "critical" people (whom you feel should be less criticized) have aimed their criticism at the Industry itself. In fact, it's all been aimed at the Black artists, etc.

It's pretty disingenuous to act like "you critics" have been so concerned with the Industry. But okay...

Exactly what do we "tell" the Industry that's gonna stick and hold some weight?
quote:
Perhaps we actually teach our young people to have more pride, better morals, more self-worth/self-value than to allow themselves to be used in such a manner?
I'm definitely with you on that ER. But you and I both know , collectively, we don't place a premium on that.

Hell, if someone asserts (and I have) that we should, as a matter of principle, commit ourselves to the idea that it is our obligation to Teach Our Youth and recognize that NO ONE ELSE is better equipped to Teach Our Youth... some of these same "critics" would be running to try to say, "White people can teach our kids."

So where are these morals, etc. going to be reinforced On The Daily if we don't take that attitude? Don't go about making that a reality?

It's pretty funny how some of these same "critics" were all for Cosby but seemed to be lacking when it came to this Matter Of Principle. I guess OSMOSIS or peripheral "teaching" is enough... I guess that's all we should aim for.

quote:
Stop aiding and abetting that industry in the promotion of our own negative imagery?
Stop it how?
If or rather since we're not Teaching The Morals... What's there to counteract this "self-promotion"?

Why are "you critics" so unrealistic?
We have and never will ALL be perfect. We expect these young men and women to abandon promoting these negative images when the truth is we've abandoned them.

These negative images, unfortunately, are the self-perpetuating, self-feeding reflections of what "We've Allowed To Happen." In any other discussion "you critics" (I'm sure) would be quick to say just that.

Where is that accountability now?
quote:
Not really give a damn about their economics considering that fact that they are not our economics anyway?
Well, ER... most of us who are "conscious" don't support those negative images. I know I sure don't. So, little if any of my money has ever went towards that stuff.

Preaching to the choir is not going to win converts. So where does that leave us?
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quote:
Originally posted by AudioGuy:
quote:
Originally posted by Nmaginate:
Point Of Information:

Didn't Gangster Rap (or at least early "Ghetto Fabulous, Look At Me" Hip Hip) and Concious Rap co-exist at one point...

Yes, they did coexist for a short period of time, and in fact still do. I think the point is that conscious rap was the dominant art form and was systematically eliminated... with the quickness!
quote:
But, if we're going to take ownership?
Where are our rich and powerful when it comes to this discussion? Why are they MIA...

As per usual, they are in their ivory towers... letting them "eat cake".

quote:
If anything, we should hold them (not just those in the Rap Industry) accountable for not counter-balancing those images...

Can I get an amen??!!

quote:
From JazzDog:
So we in the "we push the images" crowd should just accept the idea that we are going to sell our soul for ahand full of gold coin and not said anything. That despite the negative image and results of the product we just can't do anything because of economics. Well if that is the attitude then we should never again complain about Koreans building liquer stores in black neighborhoods or complain when companies develop and push products strictly at the black community that they dare not sell to anybody else.

Because after all its just business as usual.

WE do not own rec. cos. WE do not own TV networks. WE do not own radio stations. WE do not own distribution outlets. WE do not own record stores...

WE do not push the images. The images are pushed by others... if you do not have alternatives, the tendency is to accept what is available.

As far as koreans or in fact anybody opening establishments in our neighborhoods, if you don't like the way you are treated when you go to that business, dont go back, don't let your kids go back, in fact, you should encourage others not to go back.

SUPPORT BLACK-OWNED BUSINESSES.


Well Gee there's bit of wisdom, if we don't like the way we are treated don't go back, seems to me that is the very message that we should be sending to the people putting out negative images of us.
Nmaginate,

Its not an exaggeration to point out that while we don't own TV stations and radio stations we still have the right not to participate in negative images. I seriously doubt that you would allow yourself to be protrayed in a manner that fostered a negative image upon yourself or other African Americans and I would probably be right to say the same about most people who post here.

While 50 cent and others of his particular style of entertainment don't own the media outlets that push their music they still have the ability to decide whether or not to protray black women the way they do, I mean did he really need a video showing him swiping a credit card though a sisters butt, did not somebody suggest that it might be even just alittle demeaning to black women, even if there was some big white media executive urging him on, could he not have said "NO, I will not demean my sisters that way".

Perhaps you are right that in reality nothing can be done, just as there has always been blacks willing to sell their souls to the devil perhaps this is just another case of the white mans money being more important then standing on principle and deciding aganist having our sisters degraded so. Economic boycott would not work because sadly so many of our youth see nothing with the message that they see.

I admit I don't know of anything that might work because if pride in who you are and who your people are doesn't stop you from making or buying this mess I know of nothing that will.
quote:
Well, I can see why "the industry" thinks so little of us. With attitudes and perceptions like that, we don't seem to think very much or very highly of ourselves.
You can save that BS when it comes to me.
You're the one stuck on this Nancy Reagan, "Just Say No" stuff...

I'm asking you to put some meat to what you "say". But instead of doing that all you keep saying amounts "Talk".

sck "WE SHOULD TELL..." sck

scream What the hell???? scream

Since you want to claim my attitude and perception reflects how I don't think very much or very highly about our ability then tell me, seriously... how come you have not and will not consider things I say like this (below) in that regard?

quote:
Hell, if someone asserts (and I have) *that we* should, as a matter of principle commit ourselves to the idea that it is our obligation to Teach Our Youth and recognize that NO ONE ELSE is better equipped to Teach Our Youth... some of these same "critics" would be running to try to say, "White people can teach our kids."

So where are these morals, etc. going to be reinforced On The Daily if we don't take that attitude? Don't go about making that a reality?

It's pretty funny how some of these same "critics" were all for Cosby but seemed to be lacking when it came to this Matter Of Principle. I guess OSMOSIS or peripheral "teaching" is enough... I guess that's all we should aim for.
Tell me how is that Matter Of Principle whereby I say NO PEOPLE CAN EXPECT THE BEST OUT OF THEIR YOUTH WHEN THEY LEAVE IT TO OTHERS TO EDUCATE THEM... me saying in the most ambitious fashion that We Can and We Must Teach Our Own Kids (With Our Own Educational System so to speak)... tell me how that reflects someone with an attitude or perception that doesn't thing very much or very highly of our abilities?

Be real ER... I've also directly said something very ambitious that directly speaks to me thinking very highly of our abilities as it relates to promoting positive images.

Tell me how is this a reflection of someone with an attitude and a perception that is small on esteem and short on ambition?


quote:
But, if we're going to take ownership?
Where are our rich and powerful when it comes to this discussion? Why are they MIA?

If anything, we should hold them (not just those in the Rap Industry) accountable for not counter-balancing those images. (And that was sort of my point about Conscious Rap and Gangster Rap co-existing. There was a counter-balance then.)

We have all these people complaining about what rap music is doing to our communities but where is the Bill Cosby type money, power and influence in presenting an alternative?
Note To EBONY: That was me saying I believe and feel we can present an alternative - i.e. create our own Industry or our own Positive Niche with the Economics we have.

You will also note how that statement of mine followed this:
I don't fault him, however, for wanting to Accentuate The Positive. By all means we should take the attitude that we "control" the images "we" put out. By all means we should let our voices be heard as it relates to the negative images promoted by "our" art form.

So what really is your excuse for your psycho-babble about "attitudes and perceptions"?
Perhaps you should just learn how to deal with challenges to your naive thoughts or just leave the ill-conceived slights alone.

There is nothing besides the fact that I don't agree with you and jump up and down and say "Amen" with every little empty idea you present that would cause you to try to paint my ideas as things reflective of low self-esteem or whatever. That's the most laughable and weakest tactic...

I've just shown how you can't sustain that. You tell me what's takes more self-esteem: "Telling" the Industry to promote better images or taking it upon ourselves to promote them ourselves?
quote:
Originally posted by jazzdog:
Nmaginate,

Its not an exaggeration to point out that while we don't own TV stations and radio stations we still have the right not to participate in negative images...
It is an exaggeration when you say "WE PUSH THESE IMAGES." How come you just can't be honest about that?

That's factually incorrect. PERIOD.
Saying "WE HAVE A RIGHT" isn't the same thing as saying "WE PUSH THE IMAGES." Two different things. And to act like you've said exactly that no matter what you meant is just frankly disingenuous.

quote:
I seriously doubt that you would allow yourself to be protrayed in a manner that fostered a negative image upon yourself or other African Americans and I would probably be right to say the same about most people who post here.
And that has what to do with the accuracy of your statement that "WE PUSH THESE NEGATIVE IMAGES"??

Again: What part of *BY ALL MEANS* don't you understand?

quote:
Perhaps you are right that in reality nothing can be done...
When and where did I say that?

JazzDOG, I speak my mind. I say exactly what I think. No suggestions... no allusions per se. I've said nothing, explicitly or implicitly, that says "Nothing Can Be Done". I've asked you WHAT DO YOU THINK CAN BE DONE.

I've suggested what I think should and can be done if we're serious about what we say.

quote:
...just as there has always been blacks willing to sell their souls to the devil perhaps this is just another case of the white mans money being more important then standing on principle and deciding aganist having our sisters degraded so.
I'm not Defeated. Nor do I have a defeatist mindset. I am, however, someone who tries not to have unrealistic expectations.

quote:
Economic boycott would not work because sadly so many of our youth see nothing with the message that they see.
So why do we eschew the concept of things that either are or move us towards independence?

I mean? What's problematic about some of the most ardent critics... our rich and powerful Putting Their Money Where There Mouth is and mentoring this big money producing talent our youth have? How come they (we) get off the hook?
quote:
I admit I don't know of anything that might work because if pride in who you are and who your people are doesn't stop you from making or buying this mess I know of nothing that will.
When and where is this pride being instilled? You assume that pride is automatic. Just because you have it and just because I have it... what makes you think every Black person has it?

What things in the day-to-day experiences of our youth who are the most prone to being explioted by the Industry both as actors in the exploitation and as consumers of it... what in their day-to-day experiences instills the pride we know/hope they should have?
Well, Nmaginate ...

Although I fear this may come off a bit on the rude side, but I offer it as simply and honest answer to what I perceive to be an honest question.

The reason I didn't answer your previous post is because I find dialogue with you an exercise in futility. It is my perception that you don't listen, just talk. That in Nmaginate's World, the only voice you hear is your own ... and you love the sound of it. Talking to billboards is a waste of my time, something I have precious little of, and I find your adolecent-sounding rants to yield about the same results as that ... so, I generally don't read them, and therefore are unable to answer anything that is contained in them.

Sorry, but that is my most honest answer to your question.

Now, with that said ...

I will answer what you've directed at me by saying this ... You're too busy worrying about what somebody else might say or think (critics or white folks or whoever is it you're talking about) about what you might have to/should be saying to have any confidence in your own words or the worth of them.

Example:

quote:
Hell, if someone asserts (and I have) *that we* should, as a matter of principle commit ourselves to the idea that it is our obligation to Teach Our Youth and recognize that NO ONE ELSE is better equipped to Teach Our Youth... some of these same "critics" would be running to try to say, "White people can teach our kids."


I didn't respond to this because I considered it to be just plain stupid! Who cares about some "critic" saying "White people can teach our kids"? Or a better question is, why do you? If indeed you believe that we should be and are the best equipped to teach our kids (and I do question that) then what in the hell does what anybody else have to say about that matter in the least?? Confused Does such a "critic" influence you that much? Are you scared that somebody might say something discouraging to you? Will it make you cry? Confused Why do you care? And obviously you do, because it seems to be your defense here.

You can say you care about our kids all you want ... but your rantings and ravings say that you are more concerned that some White person somewhere might say something contradictory, and any effort toward the betterment of your community would have to come to a screeching halt (i.e., putting in the minds of our young women that they shouldn't simulate sex on camera just to be in the latest hip-hop video). If you are really a man of any conviction whatsoever, you need to believe what you say and believe in before you try to sell it to anybody else. Especially if the fingerpointing of some "critic" somewhere can make you quiver with fear and change your opinion and question your own moral foundation.

I really don't give a flying f**k what somebody else has to say about the fact that I tell all my girls that they are beautiful Black women with a legacy of pride that they need to foster, build on, and pass on along their way to the top.

And that includes people like you who believe my words are said in vain because of something some White person somewhere in this world might say that is different.

Additionally, if you think that without money or power you have nothing to say that would be of any worth to a young Black person in need of some direction ... then your lack of value of your own self-worth goes without saying. However, I don't have that problem. I don't have money or power of any measureable amount. But I've not lost any of the kids in my family to drugs, jail or porno-type videos, either.
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Nmaginate,

Lets cover the we push the images thing once and for all because you are really starting to sound like a really bad record.

When Russell Simmons or the Execs at Death Row records or any of these other record labels produce an album that clearly has negative images, market that album and then based on the success, produce and market more of the same, what excatly do you call that effort, I mean how do you discribe what is being done? Do they not have a choice in the type of material that they produce and release. Since it is African Americans producing this material, writing the material, writing and acting in the videos that show the material, help in the advertising of the material, what do you call all that effort, since we don't push images.

Are we distributing images or a particular lifestyle, is it a suggestion of a lifestyle, I mean since you know what it is not (ie a push), tell us what it is.
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quote:
Although I fear this may come off a bit on the rude side...

Sorry, but that is my most honest answer to your question.
ER, I'm the last person you have to feel "sorry" for saying what you think is rude or whatever. lol

Let me put it to you like this... Shit typed on a Msg Board don't hurt my feelings. So, don't hold back on my account. If you were honest with yourself, and if you truly knew me you would never think that BS.

Anyway... You say some of the funniest things. And, "sorry" this is just plain stupid:
quote:
You're too busy worrying about what somebody else might say or think...
lol
quote:
I didn't respond to this because I considered it to be just plain stupid! Who cares about some "critic" saying "White people can teach our kids"? Or a better question is, why do you?
No. The question is what part of that sarcasm was lost on you?

That's some plain and utter BULLSHIT, ER.
I mean... you actually took that literally? You got to be freakin' kiddin' me!!!

quote:
If indeed you believe that we should be and are the best equipped to teach our kids (and (I do question that) then what in the hell does what anybody else have to say about that matter in the least??
ER, where did I indicate that it "matters"?

The issue is people, perhaps those like you, who claim they want this, this and this... don't want to do what's necessary to make this, this and this happen - i.e. you're asking for something you either don't know or are unwilling to do what it takes to accomplish it.

So, let's get real and, for once, let's get you off the dumb shit.

If I worried about what other people think how come I "blast" people on the regular forcefully stating what I believe? How in the hell if I'm so concerned with what other people think... how can I simultaneously "just talk" and, curiously, "not listen" to what anybody else has to say? The shit don't make much sense, ER... They don't add up or match. Obviously, your "answer" contradicts your "rudeness" confession.

quote:
"the only voice you hear is your own ... and you love the sound of it."
That doesn't logically square with the idea that I'm concerned and somehow inhibited by what other people think, ER. Saying shit that's contradictory, of course, is an Exercise In Futility when it comes to talking to me.

quote:
Does such a "critic" influence you that much?
lol Will you stop with the jokes? bsm
quote:
Are you scared that somebody might say something discouraging to you?
This is getting even more comical...
quote:
Will it make you cry? Confused
quote:
Why do you care? And obviously you do, because it seems to be your defense here.
ER, you're full of SHIT! How was that statement "my defense"?

My defense, as it were, was that "you critics" do a lot of criticizing but don't have a plan. That's it in a nutshell. Well, let me correct that. "You critics" (and I'm talking about Black people like you and JazzDog) glory in the criticizing and hardly seem to have a plan.

At least, JazzDog can be honest and say he doesn't know what will work. But you... with your penchant for being dishonest (about what things/plans you say actually amount to and, here, what things I've said actually suggests)... you pretend you're saying something profound when you're not. You act as if "We Tell The Industry" is exhaustive. As if When We Talk (simply talk) The Walls Will Come Tumblings Down.

Talk about stupid!

quote:
If you are really a man of any conviction whatsoever, you need to believe what you say and believe in before you try to sell it to anybody else. Especially if the fingerpointing of some "critic" somewhere can make you quiver with fear and change your opinion and question your own moral foundation.
Test your bullshit out ER. Show me where my fear is? This little emotional tactic is getting you nowhere. You have no logical reason to believe I have this "fear". So, because you position is weak (i.e. its anti-logical construction... not so much its MERITS...) you've tried via anal literalism to attack my position which you can't form any logical argument against.

Typical lightweight bullshit. Emotional appeals and such. Can't deal with logic and things ON TOPIC and in CONTEXT, huh ER?

quote:
You can say you care about our kids all you want ... but your rantings and ravings say that you are more concerned that some White person somewhere might say something contradictory
Ummm... I've never showed any "concern" for some White person or what they think, ER. The "critics" I've talked about the whole time are Black ones like you and JazzDog. And, actually, the statement about Teaching Our Youth reflected something someone else Black said... as if it wasn't clear. Somebody Black who perhaps has/had the some "question" you have.

Now, I can easily say that's a reflection of your lack of self-esteem and call you out for not believing in Black people and our abilities... But, I'm actually a little more concerned with the logic of the things said here than trying to use the "You Ain't Shit (If You Don't Agree With Me)" Method.

If you can be honest... there is no way you can come across with this line of bullshit you're trying to fly. And, it's so funny. You make one pretty long post about OFF-TOPIC BS but your comments to the actual subject... the acutal part that's not about me and what you think I think, etc. Damn... you short jab that shit.

Hmmm....
quote:
Originally posted by EbonyRose:

You can say you care about our kids all you want ...
Hmmm... because I question your BS in ways that you can offer no real logical defense... my sincerity is now at question, huh?

This is very lame, ER.
quote:
but your rantings and ravings say that you are more concerned that some White person somewhere might say something contradictory, and any effort toward the betterment of your community would have to come to a screeching halt...
More hyperbolic BS - i.e. Exaggerating Like A Mofo!!

ANY effort, ER? ANY effort?
Please... this is why you talking to me is an EXERCISE IN FUTILITY. I'm brutally honest with you while you play games of dishonesty.

It's seems as if you feel your position can only be strengthen by your PRETENDING as if yours is the ONLY EFFORT or attempt to deal with the issue. Again, I submitted my suggestion. So your ANY EFFORT quip is demonstrated and fabricated BULLSHIT!!

And, What part of BY ALL MEANS don't you understand?

You've never heard me say we shouldn't demand better from the Industry in general. Nothing even remotely close to that has been in my argument here. Oh, but since you can't deal with the questions I pose to you in a forthright and substantive way... you have to PRETEND I have.

Do your thing EBONY! I'm not stopping you or anyone else from letting your voices be heard. Which is pretty funny when you think about...

You've tried to concoct this thing about me apparently being so concerned with how what people think but you yourself posted this gem:
quote:
We could demand a little more respectability and become less critical of those who do dare to speak out
Why should and "those who dare speak out" give a fuck about being critiqued or criticized?

Why would you feel less criticism should be lobbied at "them"? What? Are you and the other people "who dare speak out" going to be stopped by what other people have to say? Going to act like it "matters"?

I mean... you and "those who dare speak out" (as if you and the people who have the exact sentiments you do are THE people who "speak out")... you are People Of Conviction? Aren't you?

So why the concern about criticism? More or Less? Why is that part of your solution package? Is your conviction waning? Being critiqued takes some kind of energy or something from you?

Why did you make that comment? Why should anyone be seen in a "less critical" light by those who don't agree with their whole platform of ideas?

quote:
If you are really a man of any conviction whatsoever, you need to believe what you say and believe in before you try to sell it to anybody else.
I'm not trying to sell anything to anybody. You should stop projecting your motivations.

Again: What part of BY ALL MEANS don't you understand?
quote:
Especially if the fingerpointing of some "critic" somewhere can make you quiver with fear and change your opinion and question your own moral foundation.
EVIDENCE of this? Evidence that I have changed my opinion or questioned my moral foundation?

Fuck the rhetoric, ER. Show me proof of this BS.

It's pretty simple. To show a change in my opinion... you will first have to say at one point in time I believed X but, after my "fear" of resistance/repurcussions kicked in, I changed/altered my beliefs to Y.

What were/are my X & Y beliefs, ER?

Rhetoric ain't shit, ER. Come at me with truth and logic. Show me where my views have changed.

quote:
I really don't give a flying f**k what somebody else has to say about the fact that I tell all my girls that they are beautiful Black women with a legacy of pride that they need to foster, build on, and pass on along their way to the top.
And, of course, you and people who have the same sentiments/position you have on this issue have a monopoly on that. People like me, Audio, etc. our very positions render us incapable of instilling pride in our youth. td6


quote:
And that includes people like you who believe my words are said in vain because of something some White person somewhere in this world might say that is different.
EBONY get off it. The "critics" I talked about are Black people. As far as "The Industry"... I'm still waiting for you to be real and come real.

You said we should "tell the industry" this...
And all I asked, in essence, is will that yield the results you/we want? The simple truth is, after we "tell" the industry X, Y, Z... we're still leaving it in their largely WHITE hands to execute what we "tell" them.

As of now, all you've said and apparently fathom is "don't show us like that". One, that says nothing really about how you/we want to be shown, in the positive. Two, what you've said thus far has not outlined how we go about placing that demand in a realistic manner in order for it to be heard and responded to effectively.

quote:
Additionally, if you think that without money or power you have nothing to say that would be of any worth to a young Black person in need of some direction ...
Where the fuck do you get this BULLSHIT?

Where has anything I've said amounted to me saying or thinking I "have nothing to say that would be of any worth to a young Black person in need of some direction".

When has that been the topic?
See... this is the dishonest and weak shit people like you have to employ because the strength of your own logic fails you when people are critical of your naive ideas.

quote:
But I've not lost any of the kids in my family to drugs, jail or porno-type videos, either.
WOW!! I didn't know this was the Ebony Testamonial Forum. Now, when you want to get back to the subject and when you can actually answer some questions, earnestly... then... then you and I can have fruitful "dialogues". But, obviously, you're to busy trying to mischaracterize other people's position in hopes that the lack of logic in yours will be camouflaged or go unnoticed.
quote:
Originally posted by jazzdog:

Since it is African Americans producing this material, writing the material, writing and acting in the videos that show the material, help in the advertising of the material, what do you call all that effort, since we don't push images.

Are we distributing images or a particular lifestyle, is it a suggestion of a lifestyle, I mean since you know what it is not (ie a push), tell us what it is.
I think you've got the wrong person here, JazzDog. AUDIO said "we don't push these images," not me.

Let's see... all I did was quote what he said and added these comments/questions:
quote:
Anyone from the "We Push These Images" crowd want to quantify our influence/power as it relates to those parts of the Industry we obviously DO NOT OWN???

Beyond that though... can somebody... anybody DETAIL what we can do about these negative images?

Simply stating "WE NEED TO" doesn't cut it.
Erroneously stating "We Push These Images" (as if we do it alone and have complete, total and absolute control over them) doesn't cut.
JazzDog, take a little time and look at what I actually said and not what you think I said. Just because I took issue with your idea that "We Push These Images" does not mean that I categorically believe that we absolutely, in no way "push them." Because I "opposed" what you've said, nothing says I have to have a position OPPOSITE of yours.

So Back Away From The UNFOUNDED Rhetoric!!

Obviously, we were talking on two different levels. Obviously, you wanted to pretend as if you couldn't recognize that.

Again, I ask you to quantify. If you're concerned about the images and not just the Black people who promote them then your focus would be on the images regardless as to who promotes them. You would hold everyone who promote the images equally accountable.
quote:
What I am saying is that when the issue of hip hop being representative of the African American community comes up one simply cannot point the finger at the white owned media outlets in this country, when it is clear that there are those among us who have also pushed that image. Especially those who benefited from it financially.
Now how come when you say, in essence, "WE PUSH THESE IMAGES" you are simply pointing fingers at the Russell Simmons' and 50 Cents? You know... Just at Black people?

How come Whites, and rich & "powerful" Blacks escape your finger pointing? If you're concerned about the images being pushed then it doesn't matter who's pushing them, Black or White. Likewise, those who are silently complicit or otherwise not doing anything to counteract or establish an alternative are also implicated.

So, how come your "WE PUSH THESE IMAGES" is so limited in scope. Are you concerned about the images are not?

If and when Russell and 50 stop their part... are these images going stop being pushed? Where is you're holistic and realistic approach?

How come you can't be honest when depicting my position? Where did I say "WE DON'T PUSH THESE IMAGES"? What I quote above acknowledges whatever part we play in doing that. But, it also acknowledges that we aren't the sole "pushers" or even the predominant ones.

Perhaps someone more knowledgeable about Hip Hop can speak to this. But, it doesn't seem like Russell Simmons is responsible for the most offensive images that are out there. I can stand corrected. But it's pretty irresponsible to paint all Blacks with considerable "control" with the same brush.
Nmaginate,

I wasn't implieding that Russell and 50 cent were the whole industry they were just the first two names that came to mind, the list of people involved in this problem is to long to type, and that includes the well known plus those one hit wonders.

My issue with the individuals doing this is not limited in scope, in fact you quoted me as I talked about the individuals who have benefitted from this issue financially. While there may be some question as to their power, the fact that they have made some serious money entitling them to be considered rich is without question. And I'm sure that some of that money came from the negative images of us on the airways.

You seem to be so worried about the fact that even if african americans stopped participating in this issue what about white folks. Is that what makes change unrealistic because we can't change them. I'm with ER, screw them, this is about us doing better for us.
quote:
Originally posted by jazzdog:
Well Gee there's bit of wisdom, if we don't like the way we are treated don't go back, seems to me that is the very message that we should be sending to the people putting out negative images of us.
I, for one, do not support those who put out negative images of me and people who look like me - I live as I speak. To get others to do the same is another thing entirely.

quote:
While 50 cent and others of his particular style of entertainment don't own the media outlets that push their music they still have the ability to decide whether or not to protray black women the way they do, I mean did he really need a video showing him swiping a credit card though a sisters butt, did not somebody suggest that it might be even just alittle demeaning to black women, even if there was some big white media executive urging him on, could he not have said "NO, I will not demean my sisters that way".


If you read my previous posts, you would understand how rap progressed from "conscious" to "gangsta" - that transition was not initiated or carried out by people of color. The willingness on the part of artists to demean their own can only happen if the rec. co. execs say "go". It is not as though Tommy Mottola (head of Sony records)is standing on the set of a video and saying "...okay now swipe the credit card...", but if he has the power to pull the plug on your career if you don't, then he might as well be.

As I have said before, conscious rap was making money - a lot of it. The transition to "gansta" was not initiated by the listening and buying public. It was initated because conscious rap was "waking the sleeping giant" in the Black community and had to be "nipped in the bud".

Hip hop has become global and it's images are beamed into the homes of millions throughout the diaspora - many that do not understand what is being said... so the image is what becomes most significant (ever notice that many videos have nothing to do with what is being said?). Rec. execs know this - which is why I say that we do not push the images.

    "HE WHO CONTROLS THE MEDIA, CONTROLS THE MIND...".

    -Noam Chomsky


Indeed.
Robert Townsend did a movie a long time ago. Essentially, it was about a man who offered his big shot in a Hollywood movie, but the movie was a very (very) sterotypical Black exploitation film, and his character was going to be that of an afro-wearing, English-murdering, platform-wearing type of "Black person." He had issues with this, but his desire to be a star was a bit more important. I believe it was either his grandmother or mother who ultimately convinced him that playing that kind of role was beneath him. He didn't give up his quest for the big screen until he was already in full costume and portraying the part, and then had a change of heart. His co-star readily and happily took over the lead role.

Anybody remember the name of this movie?
quote:
Originally posted by jazzdog:
I understand what you are saying AG, but wasn't a large part of how hip hop got to be where it is was due in some part to the underground music scene, and does that underground still exist where artist control the content of what they are putting out.


Hip hop became "mainstream" when it was realized how much damage could be done via images...

As far as the underground is concerned, it has always been, and will continue to be, underground - by virtue of the fact that "the underground" is really the only place that you can hear untainted music.

Black people have been under attack through various means since 1492 - images are just the latest method - and by far the most effective.

quote:
From ER:
Robert Townsend did a movie a long time ago...

Anybody remember the name of this movie?


Hollywood shuffle.
quote:


You seem to be so worried about the fact that even if african americans stopped participating in this issue what about white folks. Is that what makes change unrealistic because we can't change them. I'm with ER, screw them, this is about us doing better for us.
No. I "seem" to be addressing the issue of the NEGATIVE IMAGES. The negative images implicate whites. Whites who promote them. So when you say screw them (like you selective outrage types do) then you say, in essence, they can produce these negative images at will. As such, you've shown no genuine concern for the negative images.

"...if african americans stopped participating in this issue..."

Hypotheticals devoid of the reality you had to admit to yourself really don't help you, JazzDog. Unless by some all-of-sudden stroke of genius you've come up with a solution that's going to yield 100% Black Compliance... then White people who are intent on promoting these negative images are still an issue.

quote:
...there has always been blacks willing to sell their souls to the devil...

Economic boycott would not work because sadly so many of our youth see nothing [wrong] with the message that they see.
What is the *IF* about? You don't believe there is an *IF*, remember?
quote:
I admit I don't know of anything that might work...
So what are you talking about?

You and Ebony need to stop projecting your emotional issues as it relate to this issue onto others. I've made statements that are logical. I've made an honest assessement/analysis that's not driven by my emotions. There is no fear, worry or any other emotion involved in things I've said here save my perpetual disdain for dishonesty/disingenuousness.

Again, if you're concerned about the negative images and if you're making statements based on REALITY and not HYPOTHETICALS or other assorted ridiculous shit... then you're concerned about all aspects of who and what's behind the promotion of these negative images.

quote:
I'm with ER, screw them, this is about us doing better for us.
Please... I've asked you both and presented my idea about what we should do to promote alternative, positive images and you both have been quiet as Church Mice about that "doing better."

Instead of us doing and producing better images you just want some miraculous *IF* to happen. Well, after your JUST SAY NO campaign accomplishes its goal? What are our youth going to be saying yes to?

When you take the attitude of "screw Whites" what's to stop a momentary reprieve followed by more of the same negative images?

I mean... you're both leaving the Industry up to White folks to control as they see fit. Sure, we might "tell them" to stop disrespecting us, as ER suggested but what happens when some of our youth are vulnerable to exploitation again and the negative images start to flow?

Why not have your own (work to build your own) independent alternative? One that not only stands to counteract negative images but actually supports and promotes the positive ones.
quote:
Is that what makes change unrealistic because we can't change them.
When and where did I say "CHANGE IS UNREALISTIC"?

For you people to be so into morals, ya'll sure do like to dabble in telling fibs. If anything, I've said your ideas are unrealistic. Or rather, based on unrealistic expectations.

You talked about "pride"... well, I guess we're all born with it? We learn that pride in school or something? No! We get that "pride" from things we see/hear in the media and stuff. Right?

That's all the more reason why we don't need to stand on the Principle Of Having Our Own. The White Man got our "pride" covered. We can get it from him and from ghettos, fabulously... lol ek

Seriously, though, when you say "I admit I don't know of anything that might work" what are you saying about your own ideas?

Are they REALISTIC or UNREALISTIC?

I mean... our youth are suppose to pull pride from out of nowhere and promote values we haven't effectively taught them. OSMOSIS, I guess. OSMOSIS...

Those things are just suppose to happen and be so because that's what we want. AMAZING...

Again: What part of BY ALL MEANS don't you understand?
quote:
Originally posted by EbonyRose:

Gee, Nmaginate ... who woulda thought that you and I had something in common? Confused

Scary. Cool
What's scary is how you hold a straight cyber-face with your point-avoiding, say some BS you know doesn't make any sense azz!
quote:
And the Industry is gonna say... "Okay?" And our young men and women are going to too? Just from us saying, speaking and telling?

Umm... What alternatives are we going to offer these young men and women once we stop "talking"?


I mean... they're making money off of this stuff. Not that I approve or anything like that. But this is akin to the Drug epidemic. Has the "Just Say No" campaign made a dent yet?

To be honest, it seems as if very little of these "critical" people (whom you feel should be less criticized) have aimed their criticism at the Industry itself.
In fact, it's all been aimed at the Black artists, etc.

It's pretty disingenuous to act like "you critics" have been so concerned with the Industry. But okay...

Exactly what do we "tell" the Industry that's gonna stick and hold some weight?
As noted by JazzDog's "screw them" sentiment which mirrors your perpetual "I'm not concerned about what White people do" attitude... my point stands.

Your "we tell the Industry" line was some disingenuous BS that's hardly the focus of your position. It's your perpetual "We're our own worst enemy" mentality where you insist on draw the intra-group battle line.

quote:
However, you have those hip-hop entertainers who say they are just "keeping it real". So, if it is indeed real life they are portraying, why should the media and/or entertainment industry be called to blame for putting out what is true?
Yes. As long as some Black folks do wrong with no remourse about it, then White folks are justified... "Because it's true!"

Stupid ass bullshit!

quote:
The media only generally shows one "type" of Black people when there are many other "types" of Black people out in the world today. The only thing we could possibly do about that is to stop giving them the ammunition that they use to shoot us with.
What the fuck? Are you confused?

You say there are many types of Black folks out there, but after saying Whites (their media/industry) are virtually BLAMELESS because they "put out what's true" then, obviously you can't keep your shit straight.

This is similar to how Black Conservatives are overrepresented in the media. "It's true!" they are out there so I guess the White media/industry is justified in whatever agenda they might have because Black Conservatives of all stripes (from the principled to the opportunists) present themselves as willing "ammunition"???

Yes, of course, "The White Man" is also BLAMELESS when it comes to Slavery because there were Negroes (African/Black) who Aided & Abetted the Slave Trade. "It was true!" Africans held other Africans as "slaves".

Why should "The White Man" be called to blame for exploiting "what was true"??

This is the utter lunacy of your thinking EBONY ROSE. This is also proof of your BS disingenuous statement. You've shown NO interest in Telling The Industry anything...

quote:
If I had the power to change hip-hop from it's present state, one of the things I think I'd do is to get a record company started that would only put out whatever positive could be extracted from the present negative picture that hip-hop paints and whether or not it would be as successful, at least it would give an alternative. Something we don't have one of now.
Damn... I could swear I've said something pretty damn similar to that. Hmmm... So much for a dialogue, huh ER?

It was obviously too damn hard for you to say, "Nmag, I said some of the same things earlier. Let's dialogue (i.e. build off things... beliefs we share in common) about that." Instead, you wanted to go the suckers route.

Funny how so much of what you say gets exposed for the bullshit it is... I guess you like to hear your own cyber-mouth so much, you can't even hear, recognize or acknowledge when someone says something similar to you. But, we know... you have to get your point across. "Dialogue" comes second... or third because when someone challenges your ideas the "dialogue" apparently is over.

Damn if I didn't find another contradiction of yours.
quote:
AUDIO said:

How do we counteract the negativity?

1. Take back the educational system for our children - for too long we have relied on "someone else" to educate, rather miseducate our children. If you look at most history curriculi(?) the part about Africans starts w/the slave trade - we all know there is mountains of history before that.

To that (points 2-4 not listed), EBONY ROSE said:

AudioGuy ... I would say *those* would be a most excellent start!
Now what exactly is your question with what I said?

NO PEOPLE CAN EXPECT THE BEST OUT OF THEIR YOUTH WHEN THEY LEAVE IT TO OTHERS TO EDUCATE THEM

Upon what do you really question my belief in that principle when AUDIO has essentially put forth the same argument I have hear?

Even if I was worried about what White people or somebody else thinks (which I don't)... WHAT DOES THAT have to do with me believing in that "MOST EXCELLENT" principle?

More importantly, since you've more or less tried to feign that you're about "dialogue"... how come you didn't latch on to that as a dialogue point? I mean... you readily acknowledged the same statement, verbatim, when AUDIO said it. WHY THE DIFFERENCE?

And, how exactly (and I'll use one of your methods) can you tell whether or not I believe what I say... "when you don't know me"??

Logically, you can't substaniate your "questions" about me believing in that Self-Education principle. Nothing I've said in this thread, logically, can be said to contradict that belief. Only some ER Logic where shit doesn't have to add up was employed.

But you always did have problems actually APPLYING CONCEPTS and PROCESSING INFORMATION. God forbid it doesn't come packaged in puree form.

I mean... you seemed to think the our enslaved Ancestors wanted "equality" a la Civil Rights as if that was the first, only and highest principled impulse. I mean... you views on that and how you inherently think Slavery, Jim Crow and "Civil Rights" were natural progressions just shows how confused you are and how much propaganda you've internalized White-Think amidst all the Black things you take pride in.

So, of course, when I say some of the same things both you and AUDIO have said... things you thought were the "most excellent" of ideas... you act like you don't or can't recognize them because they're not packaged in that old generic cereal box.
May I ask a question? Why is it so easy to sell these images and this music to our children? This mess is not allowed in my house,on my equipment audio or video. I fight this musical stupidness in my children and grandchildren by teaching them from the crib that our common enemy has always had people who look like them that will sell you (literally), not just sell you out, and that they have turned the negative imaging of Africans into commerce. But why is it so easy to get our children to accept this garbage and even defend it as some sort of art?
Well, you basically just said it.

When you have Black people going out of their way to say, "You can't blame White folks for that," you obviously don't have the same delineation of who our COMMON ENEMY is.

Also, when there is this latent expectation for there not to be Sell Outs and some surprise when there are Sell Outs and Sellers... against all we know about the history of backstabbing, self-promoting people then there really shouldn't be a question why we, collectively, are immobilized. We're in constant awe because we have some fucked up expectations devoid of reality and knowledge of history.

And, it goes without saying, "our children" accept this garbage because few of them are taught the way you've taught you kids. Hell, few of us here are taught that way.

I wish we, even just us here, actually acted like we knew who our COMMON ENEMY is. It would be great if we were conscious enough to understand that there will be Sell Outs and Sellers. Great if we actually get out a freakin stupor over the fact that there are and made plans with or without them in mind.

Some people seem to think we should be perfect or something. How they can realistically expect that when there is so much that's "imperfect" as it relates to our circumstance is beyond me.

Expecting our 'uneducated' children to act like their 'educated' is some high-tech stuff, if you ask me.

We know we haven't done all we can do to educate them ourselves but we still expect them to exhibit the education we feel they should have. This is the Diary Of The Insane.

Do as I say... Not As I Have (Non)Taught You. scream
If we can't be perfect, we could at least be better. We expect more from ourselves because we KNOW better.

I'm all for hip-hop and the gangster lifestyle. It needs to be slightly modified as far as direction, but the hip-hop and gangster system has done more to unite our people as well as other races, than any other system that our intellectuals, politicians, and spiritual leaders could create. What the system needs is to be slightly diluted with "edutainment", so that our mothers and fathers won't get that bitter bear face when we open our mouths.

<--this guys crazy

<--for real


Let's eradicate rap and gangsters. "Give the something more constructive to do" (like what? Confused

Why aren't we proud of us, your children, for being so influential? Why don't we uplift them and give them just a little bit of direction.

All we see is the bling. We don't see them going back to there hoods renovating. We don't see them putting a serious helping hand in the black youth foundations. Half of these guys probably still go to church.

My point is that these gansters/rappers are just ill-guided individuals with misdirected intentions and GOOD hearts. Yeah, they've got good hearts.
Fagunwa ...

I offer these perceptions based on watching and interacting with the younger relatives of my family pretty regularly.

One thing is that youth are basically and generally a rebullious group! Smile I know we were, I'm sure my parents were ... and their parents, and so on, during those "formidable" years. And how much more parent-aggravating can hip-hop be?? Eek So, they like it in part because it drives us crazy! Smile

Also, as HeruStar has put it, (although he tried to defend it L)) our children today are outragiously intoxicated by "bling." And money. It represents power. And it and those who have it are very, very, very influential to our young ones. They will respect someone who has it (or can make them believe they have it), regardless of whether this person is a decent individual or not.

And then there is the thing that to be able to curse and say what you want, how you want to, and, in video, basically do whatever you want to, that seems to represent a certain kind of power and give them some sort of freedom as well as a "toughness" that they can be so raw.

It is a form of art in that it is verbally expressive, as well as a form of entertainment. And it also represents a persons ability to deliver a message through song and spoken word.

The problem is that the message is undesireable and negative, yet profitable for both the rapper and the entertainment industry that promotes it. The entertainers don't want to stop doing it any more than the record industry wants them to. And so it turns into a barrage of poison that flows into our community.

I sometimes try to imagine what could/would happen if hip-hop were to have a positive message. I venture it could be a magnificent work of art if it did.
HeruStar ... as one of our "children" I'd like to ask you a question. Smile

When you say this:
quote:
Originally posted by HeruStar:
Why aren't we proud of us, your children, for being so influential? Why don't we uplift them and give them just a little bit of direction.


I think I understand as far as the being influential part goes, but what, exactly, is the influence? I mean, you are teaching others to ... what?

I understand what you are saying. And, at least for me, it's not a matter of thinking that all these children - gangsters/rappers - are bad kids! In fact, it's facinating to how many of them, after they grow up, actually do get it together and do the right things. The giving back and trying to steer others away from the evils they themselves have experienced along the way!

But, you are saying that with this entertainment product being delivered into eardrums all over this entire planet and having all these millions of people appreciate and want to emulate what you, our Black youth, are putting out there that we should be proud of that achievement .... and what I'm asking is, what is it that you believe you're delivering? Is it a message? Are you teaching or educating? With the image of hip hop/ganster rap being what is that showing to other people - both home and abroad?

I'm just inquiring to try to get a better understanding. Smile
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quote:
Also, as HeruStar has put it, (although he tried to defend it L)) our children today are outragiously intoxicated by "bling." And money. It represents power...
Ebony Rose, that's not quite how HERU "put it."

He said:
All we see is the bling. We don't see them going back to there hoods renovating.

The "we" in that part clearly was not the Hip Hop generation - aka 'the youth'. He was talking about ostracizing and condescending adults or even their moralizing peers.

quote:
I think I understand as far as the being influential part goes, but what, exactly, is the influence? I mean, you are teaching others to ... what?
While you ask a good question, you evade a very critical question HERU asked. Obviously, your line of questioning shows how detached we are.

"Why don't we uplift them and give them just a little bit of direction."

How come you didn't engage that portion of what HERU said? I mean... look at it. The White Industry and Commerce-Consumer Culture wasted no time putting their stamp on worldwide Hip Hop - i.e. they made sure they could get something out of Hip Hop's undeniable influence or worldwide drawing power.

And what do we do... we sit out in the stands criticizing. We're not in the game. Just heckling spectators.

How come those critical of Hip Hop don't include themselves as a responsible party when it comes to the questions you asked? How come we all don't see it like that?

The fact that Hip Hop is so influential should by all means make it a vehicle the Civil Rights and Integration GENERATIONS should try to use for messages to not only inform, uplift, nuture our own Black youth but children all over the world. But instead of doing that... we'd rather heckle and condescend.

quote:
...what I'm asking is, what is it that you believe you're delivering? Is it a message? Are you teaching or educating?
How any of us can think we are not implicated as responsible parties when it comes to those questions is beyond me.

You ask is Hip Hop "teaching" and delivering a positive "message"... Well, its incumbent on us to make sure that they have a positive reality and positive message to tell. And when they don't, then it's incumbent on us, especially considering Hip Hop's influence to inform, steer and gear that message to what we feel it should be.

But, instead... we remain DETACHED. In essence, you've just said the messages Hip Hop puts out is the sole responsibility of our "kids". We, the 'parent' generations (and fortunate/informed peers)... we have no responsibility except to stand in judgement.

Hmmm.... Let's see...
For the Integration Generation? What message did we send? How about some self-criticism when it comes to that?

It would seem we're directly implicated in whatever negative message the Hip Hop Generation puts out. Those messages and values don't exist in a vaccuum. They came from somewhere. Out of some void.

quote:
Perhaps we actually teach our young people to have more pride, better morals, more self-worth/self-value than to allow themselves to be used in such a manner?
How is it you change and/or abandon your previous sentiments when particular posters express sentiments from their perspective?

Hmmm... Seems as if you felt/feel that we're NOT "actually teaching" our youth. If that's so? How or Why do you expect Hip Hop to have a positive message - when they haven't been taught positively or properly?

That doesn't make a lot of sense to me.
Just another example of Voicing Sentiments Without Conviction - aka Talking Loud & Saying Nothing.... and saying something we're not being truthful about. Not being truthful with ourselves and about how things are the way they are.

Also, Voicing Sentiments Without Conviction on this subject, as noted, shows how there is a lack of commitment to counteract the very things we are critical of. Now, we may do this in our own personal lives... but, collectively, we are failing and it's that collective picture that we're all talking about anyway.

How come our focus isn't to do just what HERU asked?

"Why don't we uplift them and give them just a little bit of direction?"

We'd rather tear them down...
Instead of using the Hip Hop music genre as a liberating/teaching vehicle... We'd rather tear it down or leave it to others to direct and control.

Us grown folks (both in age and perceived political maturity) missed a prime opportunity to latch onto and direct the powerful medium that is Hip Hop during the Conscious Rap Era. Instead of investing in Hip Hop then, we decided to remain on the sidelines... Now we won't to blame our youth doubly for opportunities we missed.
Thank you all for your answers. I am not a member of the "intergration generation", more like a member of the "Black Power" generation. I explain to the young ones around me that my generation was attacked by Government and society using all the forces they have at their disposal. I speak to all the young bucks I have all around me about how I see COINTLPRO in the Biggie and Tupac east coast - west coast dumbness. I use that to tell them that the same forces are at work today and they are using the lessons the learned messing with us back in the day and just like everything else they have become more sophisticated in how they work it. I can teach them because they know my life and respect me because they know it's not just talk. They know how I treat my Queen and how serious I take my family responsibilities. This is something they really have respect for because it's so rare. They know if I'm in their a** it's love.
It's hard though because so many of the young have a lot of issues to deal with that I didn't have to face alone. They have been so neglected by the people around them that they have to respect you in order for you to be able to talk real talk to them.
quote:
Originally posted by EbonyRose:
Fagunwa ...

I think I'd like to add that lot of tocay's children were born to and raised by children ... so they've had no one who knows better to tell them the things that folks like you and I can tell them.


I hear you ER. It's a tough situation all around. I like that old thing we used to say back in the day "Each one teach one". All we can do is our best.
As audioguy has pointed out positive music didn't die. It has just been covered up.

There is still nuff conscious music being made.

I'm surprised that some of you, as aware as you are of the medias control over all aspects of our lives fail to take seriously the implications and obvious devious intent of the corporate controlled media to mold our thinking thereby maintaining control.

People like Puff and Russell have not changed. They've been making the same music since they began. It's just that before there was a kind of balance.

I blame some of the artist for not trying to be creative, and following a cookie cutter formula to get paid, but i do not blame them for their content even if it is ignorant.

To do so is self-defeating, after all this is a gangsta world we live in. Even the the kemetians kept it gangsta at times.

In order to get things back in balance we must begin to take the radio stations and video outlets to task, earlier in this forum I posted a link to a form that could be used to file a complaint with the FCC no one in here responded. Yet you bitch and moan.

http://saywordradio.com

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