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It's called subliminal messages. Ways to control. Media does that to folks purposely. I find that listening to old school music, turning off the television, not watching many movies, reading books, finding subjects of interest on the internet, writing, works for me. Don't be a follower; be a leader. Don't fall for the Okey-Doke and hold your head up high.
I would answer yes to all of your questions and perceptions. And I would agree that hip-hop is slowly banging nails into our coffins as far as us as a community goes.

The media is a viper and a leech. But, it is run by people who have the (more or less absolute) power, who don't really like, let alone care about us, and who's bottom line is greed ... so in essence, they don't really care about anybody but themselves and their bank balances.

However, you have those hip-hop entertainers who say they are just "keeping it real". So, if it is indeed real life they are portraying, why should the media and/or entertainment industry be called to blame for putting out what is true?

As horrible as the depiction of that guy "thinking he's black" is, it's not like there aren't Black people that act like that! Eek And many are proud to act like that. In fact, to act like that and become famous acting like that is something they strive for.

If more Black teanagers felt as disgusted by such media attention and hip-hop music as you do, then perhaps the entertainment industry wouldn't have such a big pool to swim in when it comes to debasing and exploting us. Perhaps "acting Black" would depict us going to school and trying to gain an education, or questioning the authority in this country, or working to help our people help themselves.

The media only generally shows one "type" of Black people when there are many other "types" of Black people out in the world today. The only thing we could possibly do about that is to stop giving them the ammunition that they use to shoot us with.

But as long as Black people want to be shown as "acting Black" in the derogatory way that they do, those people are feeding the fire that is ravaging through our Black culture.
quote:
Originally posted by James Wesley Chester:
So whatcha' gonna do??

Whatcha' gonna do?

There has to be more than just posing questions.

You've identified the problem.

You know who's causing it.

You know why it's happening.

Whatcha' gonna do?

Moanin' and groanin' will not fix it.

PEACE

Jim Chester


I think that is a most EXCELLENT question, Mr. Chester!!

And as such, I would like to present a challenge to all of us who post here (and yes, that includes myself Smile) to formulate and share what our own personal answer to such a question might be. So, just to play devil's advocate here ...

Let's say, IF you had the power, how would you go about the best way to wipe out/re-vamp (or whatever your preference is) the hip-hop culture so that it does not paint such a destructive picture to our kids?? For those of you that consider it to be a work of art, or art form, or expression of some sort, worthy of being preserved and appreciated, what do you think is the best plan or approach to taking what is wrong with it, and making right?

I don't have the time to think about it right now ... but I'll definitely be back after I've done so to answer my own challenge! Big Grin

But until then, anybody else got any ideas??
You know Sandye ... that was actually going to be one of my solutions! Smile

If I had the power to change hip-hop from it's present state, one of the things I think I'd do is to get a record company started that would only put out whatever positive could be extracted from the present negative picture that hip-hop paints and whether or not it would be as successful, at least it would give an alternative. Something we don't have one of now.

Also, I think I would try to stage monthly or maybe even weekly marches against the industry until somebody, somewhere started listening.

Or, perhaps I would start going to colleges and trying to mobilize those young people that, through educating themselves, can see the harm the current state of affairs with the hip-hop culture is causing, both home and abroad, and maybe try to get them to start showing a more positive image ... such as that you can get a message across without cursing, spitting, calling women derrogatory names, not having the solutions to problems be killing, shooting, maiming, torturing or beating somebody up to prove manhood or capability as a human being.

Unlike Russell Simmons who did not make his money as a rapper or a gangster, but yet exploits them to make his money now, if I had the ears of those he seems to be able to influence, I would strive to put something worth listening to into them.
See, that's the thing, I can't do it alone. If I tell someone that all black people dont act, think, talk a certain way, but in the course of the next ten minutes they run into 5 copies of the same black person, what do you think's going to happen? I'm a little bit astounded that I haven't heard any assessments of this problem by black leaders in the mainstream media. Probably because they [the media], don't see it as their problem. And also, I do realize that some black people maintain this ideology of "acting black" by embracing these negative stereotypes. I've even had serious discussions with people who, when I first engaged in the conversation, portrayed themselves as uneducated with bad grammar and typical slang, but when we get on topic, all of a sudden, they are scholars capable of speaking perfect english. I have witnessed and had experienced this time and time again, which causes me to ask, "Are black people afraid to be themselves around other black people?" It's almost as if we presume each other as ignorant, belligerent, and bent on "keeping it real" or "acting black", so we internalize these prejudices out of fear of rejection, thus, perpetuating these stereotypes throughout the community.

Oh, and to you Mr. Chester, that's my frustration, the trap seems to be perfectly set. I don't think change through the art form [hip-hop] itself would do much, do to it's representation being controlled by an entity [corporations] that would be in opposition of the message [essentially, corporations would not feed an entity that would eventually challenge it's market dominance ]. And as always, it takes money anyway. One medium for the spread of this idea that comes to mind immediately is theater. Movies specifically targeting the black audience usually have high assimilation into the black population, but there's been a dormant period in thought-provoking mainstream black movies, while a flurry of minstrel-movies have prospered.

As of now, I'm only in position to the change society person by person.

So...Any other ideas?
IP ...

I think that part of why you haven't heard any of our "talented 10th" talk about such things is that, as you say, the media isn't going to give any airtime to any such positive message ... but that doesn't mean that they aren't out there saying it. You will never hear about it on any TV station that broadcasts anywhere in this country. Not even on Black Entertainment Television ... which shows how much of a joke it is. I don't have the new TV1 Black cable network, but I hope it's doing a better job of getting the word out about things of importance.
Image is everything...

IMHO, the music industry and in fact, the entire entertainment industry, with respect to people of African descent, is hell bent on presenting negative images.

Why you ask?

Because there will always be money in the exploitation of Africans.

How do we counteract the negativity?
    1. Take back the educational system for our children - for too long we have relied on "someone else" to educate, rather miseducate our children. If you look at most history curriculi(?) the part about Africans starts w/the slave trade - we all know there is mountains of history before that.

    2. Connect in a more meaningful way with our people throughout the diaspora - we can sponsor educational "field trips" abroad. In order to learn about various Africans first hand.

    3. TURN OFF THE TV. These images would have a difficult time propogating if we did not watch.

    4. Boycott! Refuse to support movies that portray us in a negative light - regardless of who makes them. (It worked in Montgomery with the buses.)


These are what I would call a start. There many things that can be done, but I feel as though these are important enough to highlight.
quote:
Originally posted by ulimo:
Did you know that the Jails and Prisons here in America are mostly filled with Christian Blacks and Christian Latinos. What is it about the world of crime and violence that is so facinating to Black and Latino Christians?


Are you serious?

We are oppressed, not because we are X-tian, Muslim, Jewish, or traditionalists...but because we are Africans. (and Indigenous folk...'Latino' is a misnomer IMO)

Just for the record I'm not an X-tian. But our people aren't getting incarcerated because of their religion.
This guy seems to use any thread he can as an excuse to introduce us to web sites about Islam. This time I think he went a little off the deep end. In the Terry Schiavo thread, I won't be surprised to see something like, "Guess what the Qur'an says Negroes should think about Terry Schiavo?" With a link to some surah and verse. This individual is probably not interested in any real discussions.
AudioGuy ... I would say those would be a most excellent start! Smile

And OA .. I hear you talkin'. But, in addition to gaining the power, you have to know what you're gonna do with it once you have it! Eek

This is where I see so many of the failures happen. Especially with our African countries. It's not just who gets the power or how or just how much of it they've got! It's what you do with it once you get it. I think both of those things are equally as important as the other.

And ... once you know what you're gonna do with it, you'll know just how much you need and may be surprised that you don't need as much as you thought you did! Big Grin
quote:
Originally posted by EbonyRose:
AudioGuy ... I would say those would be a most excellent start! Smile

And OA .. I hear you talkin'. But, in addition to gaining the power, you have to know what you're gonna do with it once you have it! Eek


This is where ideological training comes in...

quote:
This is where I see so many of the failures happen. Especially with our African countries. It's not just who gets the power or how or just how much of it they've got! It's what you do with it once you get it. I think both of those things are equally as important as the other.


Well there aren't any African countries where the people actually have power at the moment. Just a small elite that are largely puppets of Western interests. I think people keep confusing the idea that there is a Black African pig leader in control that somehow this means the masses of the people have control...not so whatsoever. Oppressors are oppressors reguardless of their ethnicity/race.

quote:
And ... once you know what you're gonna do with it, you'll know just how much you need and may be surprised that you don't need as much as you thought you did! Big Grin


So how much power do you think the people need for self determination? How do you measure how much power is enough for the masses to have over our own lives? I don't understand what you meant by this statement.
"Perverted Trends of Gangster/Criminal Lifestyles are Ravaging are Ravaging Black Culture..." - are ravaging BLACK CHRISTIAN CULTURE!
You don't see any Blacks, Native Americans, or Latinos who practice Judaism,Yoga, Budhaism, Sufism, etc., in these jails and prisons.
What some of the Blacks will do(for protection and rap-buddies) when they get arrested, is to claim to be "Muslims". But if you ask these Blacks, Native Americans, and Latinos, what their religion is? -before they get arrested - most will answer, "Christians"; the Latinos may answer, "Catholics).
quote:
Originally posted by ulimo:
"Perverted Trends of Gangster/Criminal Lifestyles are Ravaging are Ravaging Black Culture..." - are ravaging BLACK CHRISTIAN CULTURE!
You don't see any Blacks, Native Americans, or Latinos who practice Judaism,Yoga, Budhaism, Sufism, etc., in these jails and prisons.
What some of the Blacks will do(for protection and rap-buddies) when they get arrested, is to claim to be "Muslims". But if you ask these Blacks, Native Americans, and Latinos, what their religion is? -before they get arrested - most will answer, "Christians"; the Latinos may answer, "Catholics).


Funny, I haven't seen many Ethiopian Orthodox Christians in the Prison system....hhhmmmm

Maybe it is because their culture doesn't produce a large amount of criminals...

And why aren't X-tians of other nationalities/races in prison as much as the African/Blacks in Amerikkka? ...

If this had anything to do with religion all the X-tian white folks would be in jail.

We are targetted because we are African/Balck. And the Amerikkkan society produces criminals...that's what this nation was founded on! Criminal behavior. Couple that with racism and economic oppression and Bingo... Police don't pull people over cuz they are "driving while X-tian"!...Get a clue.

BTW since you want to divert every topic into some X-tian bashing promotion for Islam...How about this little historical tidbit. Islam was exposed to African/Black people the same way X-tianity was...by foreign invasion and conquest by the Arabs into Africa...East African Slave trade ring a bell?

Now...back to the topic and real issues at hand...
O.K. getting back on track


As far as changing hip-hop, as much as I'd hate to say it, I wouldn't change one single aspect of it? It's funny how white people can listen to heavy metal, grunge, speed metal, and other forms of "not all that positive" music and not raise a single brow in the community. It's taken for what it is... entertainment. But when rappers say a certain thing or behave a certain way, they're supposed to be representing or misrepresenting the whole race? Why can't our art be seen for what it is... entertainment. The only one's not entertained are racist white people. Now our solution is to make everything black, educating instead of entertaining. I think the solution is to continue doing what we do best. Being black. The media will always scrutinize us for whatever we do. Truth be told, white people are just tired of being intimidated by the gangster mentality that they associate with "all" black folks. That's not our fault. So I say, they should get over it. Hey, there's a platinum song, "Get over it!"
quote:
Originally posted by HeruStar:
O.K. getting back on track


As far as changing hip-hop, as much as I'd hate to say it, I wouldn't change one single aspect of it? It's funny how white people can listen to heavy metal, grunge, speed metal, and other forms of "not all that positive" music and not raise a single brow in the community. It's taken for what it is... entertainment. But when rappers say a certain thing or behave a certain way, they're supposed to be representing or misrepresenting the whole race? Why can't our art be seen for what it is... entertainment. The only one's not entertained are racist white people. Now our solution is to make everything black, educating instead of entertaining. I think the solution is to continue doing what we do best. Being black. The media will always scrutinize us for whatever we do. Truth be told, white people are just tired of being intimidated by the gangster mentality that they associate with "all" black folks. That's not our fault. So I say, they should get over it. Hey, there's a platinum song, "Get over it!"


Clearly you don't know your history. Long before there was hip hop and gangsta rap there were white middle class suburbanites raging aganist the evils of heavy metal, in fact you are probably to young to remember a white lady named Anita Bryant who was some hollywood star back in the 60's who made the whole issue of heavy metal music a national issue and she was not the only one. Heavy metal music led kids to satan and devil worship was the cry, just because you haven't seem it or heard about it doesn't mean it hasn't happened. Perhaps you heard the stories about how if you played records (vinyl) backwards there would be messages leading kids to satan and all kinds of other foolish ideas, that idea was based on heavy metal bands supposely leaving messages for people to find, not hip hop, but heavy metal. The history of people objecting to other forms of music and entertainment has a long history in this country, hip hop is just the latest target.
quote:
Originally posted by ulimo:
"Perverted Trends of Gangster/Criminal Lifestyles are Ravaging are Ravaging Black Culture..." - are ravaging BLACK CHRISTIAN CULTURE!
You don't see any Blacks, Native Americans, or Latinos who practice Judaism,Yoga, Budhaism, Sufism, etc., in these jails and prisons.
What some of the Blacks will do(for protection and rap-buddies) when they get arrested, is to claim to be "Muslims". But if you ask these Blacks, Native Americans, and Latinos, what their religion is? -before they get arrested - most will answer, "Christians"; the Latinos may answer, "Catholics).


It is difficult to decipher were you stand, but I will offer this:

    Q: Malcolm X was exposed to the Muslim faith where??

    A: Prison.


I guess that the point is that there a representatives of all faiths in the prison system - not just christians.

For you to assert that christianity somehow makes a person more criminal than any other faith, is absurd.
quote:
Originally posted by HeruStar:
O.K. getting back on track


As far as changing hip-hop, as much as I'd hate to say it, I wouldn't change one single aspect of it? It's funny how white people can listen to heavy metal, grunge, speed metal, and other forms of "not all that positive" music and not raise a single brow in the community. It's taken for what it is... entertainment. But when rappers say a certain thing or behave a certain way, they're supposed to be representing or misrepresenting the whole race? Why can't our art be seen for what it is... entertainment. The only one's not entertained are racist white people.


We are oppressed and exploited. Until we are no longer under such conditions our youth shouldn't be fed a diet of ignorance. Can an oppressed and exploited people afford to have major propoganda shoved down our throats every day? The results in our youth should tell you the answer.

Do you remember "edutainment"? What happened to that aspect of Hip-hop? Ever wonder where it went or why? Our conditions haven't gotten any better as a people since hip-hop started so what caused the change in the dominant themes and topics? It's funny and sad to hear someone say they wouldn't change one single aspect about hip-hop...When it was our enemy who transformed this genre into the crap it largely is today.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

How Hip Hop destroyed Black Power

by Min. Paul Scott

FNV - From the moment Stokley Carmichael (Kwame Ture) grabbed the mic and yelled Black Power! the phrase has struck fear in the heart of white America. Not that they were overly concerned that we posed some sort of military or economic threat, as the white power structure had those two options on "lock," but the possibility that the phrase would galvanize the masses of Black youth to action. Motivating them to do more than get their groove on Saturday night and their praise on Sunday morning sent chills up the spines of those who had a vested interest in holding the Black community down. Something had to be done to destroy this uncompromising desire for FREEDOM, JUSTICE and EQUALITY.

The blackploitation movies of the '70s were a good try as they served as a funkier alternative to the Black Nationalist struggle. However, even the pimps and pushers were Struggling against "the man." Also, during that period, the blood of the Black Panthers and our other martyrs was still fresh on the pavements of many neighborhoods of Black America.

So the weapon of choice was a movement of young Black teenagers who had developed a system of organization that could do anything from educate children about the historical struggle of African people to turning the deadliest gang rivalry into a break dance competition.

First, the power structure tried to ban rap music altogether by strengthening indecency laws in states where rappers performed and forcing them to place parental guidance stickers on their albums. But the contradiction of having those who have robbed, killed and murdered every culture on the planet serving as morality police was too much to swallow. Also problematic was the fact that to them the members of 2 Live Crew and Public Enemy were interchangeable.

So they fell back on their old standard "if you can't beat them, corrupt them." It was not an overnight hostile takeover but a slow, cunning infiltration, kind of like the annoying scratchy throat that you ignore until it has you sick in bed for two weeks. By then it is too late.

What arose was a Hip Hop nation that held no allegiance to the Black Nation, as the Hip Hop nation was all inclusive, and anyone regardless of race, class, religion or political views where anyone who had 15 dollars to buy a CD and could imitate the style of dress from glossy magazine covers could be down.

There is a saying in Afrocentric circles that when the European missionaries came to Africa, they had the Bible and we had the land, and when they left, we had the Bible and they had the land. In terms of Hip Hop, when the white missionaries in the form of corporate executives came to the 'hood, they had the 20-inch rims and Courvoisier and we had the music; when they left, we had the rims and Courvoisier and they had the music. We traded our dashikis for Rockawear, our African medallions for platinum chains and our souls for a moment to shine in front of white America. As it is said, we crossed over and couldn't get black. Black Power became an example of racism in reverse, and a term that should have gone out with the Afro pick.

Hip Hop should serve as the background music for the Black Nation and should be heard pumpin' through speakers at every uprising, protest, or demonstration.

However, the forces which control Hip Hop have taken measures to make sure that the Hip Hop Nation and the Black Power Nation never unite. While most rappers would swear on their mammas' graves that they are in control of their Hip Hop destinies, I cannot help but think that behind the back stage curtain at every rap concert is an old white "Wizard of the 'hood" carefully manipulating the lives of our children.

What we have here is a failure to communicate; a conversation that never happened. A dialogue between the Black Nation and the Hip Hop Nation has been skillfully blocked by the white power structure. While talk shows often pit Harvard educated, middle class journalist Bob Smith against straight up gangsta MC Cut Throat, I have yet to see a debate between "MC Cut Throat" and straight up Black militant, revolutionary "Bro. Shaka Zulu."

We must not be afraid of alienating our children (as many of them cannot become more alienated, anyway) by engaging them to observe Hip Hop against the back drop of the struggle for Black LIBERATION. As many of them pride themselves on being the "realist" and shocking white America with their lyrics that talk loud and say nothing, we must teach them of the ancestors who were really controversial and were rewarded with a bullet in the head or noose around their necks and not heavy rotation on a radio station.

We must not be afraid to use the term "anti-afrikanism" in describing some of the disrespect that white corporate America gives us in the guise of entertainment. While it may be too early to grill Lil Bow Wow on his views on the mental genocide of Afrikan people, it is not only proper; but also our responsibility, to engage 30-something-year-old Black men on their views on colonialism. If they are able to tell our children about the correct way to sell crack or murder another Black man, the issue of white supremacy should not intimidate them in the least.

Although many would like to write off the age of Black Consciousness as a lost era, if you walk outside on a warm summer night, after the last video has played on BET, if you listen closely, you can still hear the voices of the ancestors shouting black power, Black Power, BLACK POWER!

http://www.daveyd.com/hiphopdestroysblackarticle.html
quote:
Originally posted by HeruStar:
I see what point you chose to focus on.
But the issue is this. When heavy metal was going through its fair share of hoobla, the culture wasn't being pegged on the whole white race. Heavy metal wasn't seen as a "typical" white lifestyle.


You are correct, but I differ in the belief that hip hop is seem as a typical black lifestyle and that somehow hip hop is the preferred lifestyle for all African Americans which it isn't, just one segment of our society as it is in the case of most ethnic groups. If it is seem that way it is because we have pushed that image, it didn't just happen, and the lifestyle was pushed without regard to the notion that everybody is not a fan of hip hop, and that as in every different ethnic group there are varying ideas of lifestyle not just one predominate one.
quote:
Originally posted by jazzdog:
You are correct, but I differ in the belief that hip hop is seem as a typical black lifestyle and that somehow hip hop is the preferred lifestyle for all African Americans which it isn't, just one segment of our society as it is in the case of most ethnic groups. If it is seem that way it is because we have pushed that image, it didn't just happen, and the lifestyle was pushed without regard to the notion that everybody is not a fan of hip hop, and that as in every different ethnic group there are varying ideas of lifestyle not just one predominate one.


I agree with your general statement...but are you sure it was "us" who pushed this image?...
First of all, Oshun Auset, I would like to say that I think that you have a monumental intellect. But some of us Black-Intellectuals began, back in the 1960's, studying Black History in terms of the origins and movements of certain Languages that Black people seem to have been most historically envolved with; such as: Biblical Hebrew, The Arabic of The Quran, Geez of Ethiopia, etc. Which ones were older? Which one came from which one?

The 19th Century European historians had spread confusion, by deviding a language-family into 2 false Classifications: SEMITIC[Mulotto] - HAMITIC[Black].

But in the 1960's it was discovered by some Linguists who specialize in the study of Sub-Saharan Black Languages, '...THAT ALL OF AFRICA'S LANGUAGES SOUTH OF THE SAHARA DESERT(except KHOISAN) ORIGINATED
IN PRE-HISTORIC TIMES IN A NARROW BAND BETWEEN LAKE CHAD AND THE NILE VALLEY". Hence, "Afro-Asiatic" Languages - a NEW Category in Linguistics.
www.countrystudies.us/chad/4.htm

THE UNIVERSITY OF CHICAGO
The Afro-Asiatic Index Project:
www.oi.uchicago.edu/OI/PROJ/CUS/AAindex.html

www.cwo.com/~lucumi/arabia.html
quote:
Originally posted by ulimo:
First of all, Oshun Auset, I would like to say that I think that you have a monumental intellect. But some of us Black-Intellectuals began, back in the 1960's, studying Black History in terms of the origins and movements of certain Languages that Black people seem to have been most historically envolved with; such as: Biblical Hebrew, The Arabic of The Quran, Geez of Ethiopia, etc. Which ones were older? Which one came from which one?

The 19th Century European historians had spread confusion, by deviding a language-family into 2 false Classifications: SEMITIC[Mulotto] - HAMITIC[Black].

But in the 1960's it was discovered by some Linguists who specialize in the study of Sub-Saharan Black Languages, '...THAT ALL OF AFRICA'S LANGUAGES SOUTH OF THE SAHARA DESERT(except KHOISAN) ORIGINATED
IN PRE-HISTORIC TIMES IN A NARROW BAND BETWEEN LAKE CHAD AND THE NILE VALLEY". Hence, "Afro-Asiatic" Languages - a NEW Category in Linguistics.
www.countrystudies.us/chad/4.htm

THE UNIVERSITY OF CHICAGO
The Afro-Asiatic Index Project:
www.oi.uchicago.edu/OI/PROJ/CUS/AAindex.html

www.cwo.com/~lucumi/arabia.html


Thanks for the compliment but I don't understand your point.

Yes, the 'Arab' ethnic group and Arabic language came out of Africa....All humanity did...not to be flippant, but so what? During the Arab development in Arabia and Southwest Asia(the middle east) they had a harsher climate and their religion, which is inseperable and nothing but an expression of their culture became warlike and hostile/patriarchial as a result when compared to the cultures and people that continued to deveop on the African continent(Same with the Hebrews?Semetic peoples). This mutation culture(for lack of a better term)was then imposed upon the people when they returned(millenia later) to subdue and invade the African people's and cultures that were non Arabic/Muslim in ethnicity and culture.

They didn't come back and live in a symbiotic relationship with the continental Africans, they came back to dominate as oppressive parasites and exploiters of the people and the land.

offBTW, I also have a theory that the original people in the Arabian Peninsula and Southwest Asia who were Black(ie. Summerian meaning "Black Heads" and the fact Europe always referred to the area as "Eastern Ethiopia/Burnt face" ect.), had their cultures distorted and dominated by Aryan invasians...much like what happened in the Indus Valley region/Indian Subcontinent with the Hindu religion, which originally was a product of the Dravidian/Sudra/Dalit(Black indigenous) peoples but once invaded by Aryans, developed into a tool of oppression of the indigenous(Black) population by formation of the caste system within the religion by the Aryans.

I think this also led to the patriarchial and warlike tendancies of the Islamic and Hebrew religions...but possible earlier or multiple times(the Hiksos for instance)If the Aryans got to India 2000 years ago...they had to pass through this region on the way.

Hence, even though I admire Islam for it's organizational tendancies and it's strict moral code(much like my feelings towards Hinduism)...especially compared to my irritation with the dominant form of X-tianity...None retain the traditional African characteristics and both are used to oppress people of colour native to their respective lands....a.k.a they are 'foreign imposed' religions(to Africa and the Indus Valley respectively).

Back to my comment...The logic in you last post could be applied to Greco-Roman civilization and by extension Europeans in general. Athena was a Kemetic(Egyptian) colony...There are numerous studies showing the similarities between the MDW NTR(heiroglyphics) and Greek language(as well as Arabic and other Indo European and Semetic language groups) pretty much showing about 80% of Greek(and therefore Latin) is African in origin. But the European civilization developed seperately out of Africa and is native to that land mass. ALthough we know much of what developed was copied/borrowed from Africa via KMT and the Moorish period that sparked the Renaissance. It then came in as an invading force into Kemet also to dominate and exploit. It is even arguable that the Greco-Romans were a less harsh invasion considering they took on the Native African cultures of Kemet, instead of imposing their version of things on the indigenous population as the Arabs/Muslims did...of course the same cannot be said for the later incursions of largely Western European colonialism.

I'm still at a loss to what any of this has to do with African peoples persecution under the Amerikkkan justice system?

I apologize to the other forum posters and you for getting off topic and rattleing on. You just happened to bring up a favorite subject area of mine.
Wow, you are absolutely amazing! You really do have a "monumental" mind; the kind of mind Aldous Huxley had, broad and beathtaking. You know the phenomena of "Radio Al-night", Talk shows"? They generally start late at night, about 11:00 or 12:00 PM, and go on continuously for the next 4 or 5 hours?

A fellow named Art Bell made his real popular all over the world(500+ Stations): www.coasttocoastam.com/ (hosted weekdays by George Noory)

Well, up until about 3 years ago, there was a white woman named: Laura Lee(The Laura Lee Show). Her broadcast was on the weekends from, about 11:00 to 5:00 AM, from Bellevue,Washington. She has a "monumental" mind too, just like yours. The similarity is uncanny.

Check it out for your self, her Web-site:
www.lauralee.com

[By the way, I am not an "Islamic Muslim". I am only into The Quran, in Arabic. And The Quran doesn't address us who are into it as: "muslims". Also, the word: "Islam" is not the name of a religion. It is only a verb, etc.]


AND JUDGING BY THE HUGE SIZES OF THOSE CHRISTIAN CROSSS SOME OF THE RAP-STARS WEAR, THEY ARE PROUD OF BEING CHRISTIONS!!!
quote:
Originally posted by Oshun Auset:
quote:
Originally posted by jazzdog:
You are correct, but I differ in the belief that hip hop is seem as a typical black lifestyle and that somehow hip hop is the preferred lifestyle for all African Americans which it isn't, just one segment of our society as it is in the case of most ethnic groups. If it is seem that way it is because we have pushed that image, it didn't just happen, and the lifestyle was pushed without regard to the notion that everybody is not a fan of hip hop, and that as in every different ethnic group there are varying ideas of lifestyle not just one predominate one.


I agree with your general statement...but are you sure it was "us" who pushed this image?...



I would wholeheartily agreed that for the most part the major media interests have pushed this idea that hip hop is now the preferred lifestyle for all African Americans, without bothering to realize or even understand that for the most part it is a matter of generational differences that seperate supporters of hip hop from those of us who prefer a different lifestyle. I guess its just to damn hard to explain to Jim and Peggy Sue America that this is but one of many difference lifestyles that make up African American life.
However african americans are still part of the problem in that the way we allow our own to endorse the lifestyle is taramount to pushing it, from P. Diddy to Russell Simmons, we have successful African Americans pushing this notion of a lifestyle that they would have the rest of the country believe is how we live.
quote:
Originally posted by ulimo:
Wow, you are absolutely amazing! You really do have a "monumental" mind; the kind of mind Aldous Huxley had, broad and beathtaking. You know the phenomena of "Radio Al-night", Talk shows"? They generally start late at night, about 11:00 or 12:00 PM, and go on continuously for the next 4 or 5 hours?

A fellow named Art Bell made his real popular all over the world(500+ Stations): www.coasttocoastam.com/ (hosted weekdays by George Noory)

Well, up until about 3 years ago, there was a white woman named: Laura Lee(The Laura Lee Show). Her broadcast was on the weekends from, about 11:00 to 5:00 AM, from Bellevue,Washington. She has a "monumental" mind too, just like yours. The similarity is uncanny.

Check it out for your self, her Web-site:
www.lauralee.com

[By the way, I am not an "Islamic Muslim". I am only into The Quran, in Arabic. And The Quran doesn't address us who are into it as: "muslims". Also, the word: "Islam" is not the name of a religion. It is only a verb, etc.]


AND JUDGING BY THE HUGE SIZES OF THOSE CHRISTIAN CROSSS SOME OF THE RAP-STARS WEAR, THEY ARE PROUD OF BEING CHRISTIONS!!!


LOL...I at least knew who the second chick you mentioned is...I guess "monumental" mind is a sarcastic insult from you for anyone who doesn't see the answers to all of our social problems as a people in a foreign cultures writings...and likes history.

You are no better than the X-tian missionaries.
How you seperate a religion from it's history...or it's holy books from the religion and culture is beyind me. But then again you think sarcasm is the way to respond to hitorical information that you can't refute.

And now, back to the regular scheduled programming... Real social causes and effects.
So jazzdog are you willing to suggest that P. Diddy and Russel Simmons are obligated to promote this "edutainment" of the black community and compromise "OUR" art in doing so. I think the setting for edutainment is in the classroom.
Ima go off topic for a second but, if we had not have blended ourselves into the whiteman's classroom and the whiteman's world we would have never had this problem of Gangsters and Pimps. I was told stories by my grandmother of how our communities used to raise our children. If she was out of line, her next door neighbor or even a neighbor down the block would correct her and she would get another formal correction when her parents would get home. When I imagine all black schools back then, I don't imagine standing in the corner, and I believe that talking back to the teacher was unthinkable. So I postulate that desegregation disintegrated the progress of our people's. Obviously this is just a conjecture because I'm no history buff.
What I am saying is that when the issue of hip hop being representative of the African American community comes up one simply cannot point the finger at the white owned media outlets in this country, when it is clear that there are those among us who have also pushed that image. Especially those who benefited from it financially.
Commentary from/by Stanley Crouch:
-------------------------------------



Ladies, stop buying
into rap's misogyny

Black women's fight needs more voices



The movement that young black women and their mothers and grandmothers are bringing to challenge the spiritual bilge of the worst of hip hop is clearly the most important American cultural movement of this new century.
It reveals that black women have begun to break away from all of the conventions that button their lips when they find themselves disturbed by rap's demeaning lyrics and videos.

The regular defense of the worst of hip hop is that these images should be accepted because they provide a way for black men at the bottom to become successful. An additional aspect of this defense is that young men are making so much money one should not mess with the flow of the dough. The next defense is that anything that makes money is good - especially if it is not illegal. At the end of the argument is the manipulative racial ploy that black people should not use "white" standards to attack something that comes out of the neighborhood, that arrives from black street culture. This last point has been far too successful for far too long among middle-class blacks, who are often made to feel as if they have lost contact with their roots and should never question anything "authentically" black, lower class and street.

Illness kept me from a panel discussion Tuesday on the images of women in rap. (It was presented by the Center for Communication - www.cencom.org - at the Fashion Institute of Technology.) I wanted to be there because every one of these "defenses" needs to be refuted. But according to Michaela angela Davis, an editor from Essence magazine, the audience included some younger black women who see nothing wrong with what isgoing on in rap. Such women do not think there is anything wrong with the images of black women as sluts, scantily clad nubile meat.

There were those who even likened the rap videos to what is seen in the behavior of Paris Hilton or on "Girls Gone Wild," with white college women exhibiting all kinds of nude, lewd and dubious behavior. That was countered by arguments that black women at the bottom are not in college and will not get degrees or move into affluent lives by embracing the street ethos.

I surely missed something, but it seems like some young people are missing even more.

Originally published on March 24, 2005
I read that article....I think the emphasis should be placed on parenting and individual responsibility instead of censorship...there are those who listen to rap like anything else, take it with a grain of salt, see it as entertainment and not some sub-culture to emulate and also lead productive and progressive lives...should THEY be denied the opportunity to listen to a ceratin type of music because others are negatively influenced by it and cannot keep it in perspective? I think not....but I do understand where people are coming from but it is dangerous in a democracy to start setting the value systems of others....that is my beef with that racist azz hypocritical right-wing. They tell everyone to do as they say and not as they do....and promote that southern/yankee christianity as opposed to allowing equal representation of all religions in this country...............................
quote:
Originally posted by Oshun Auset:
Well there aren't any African countries where the people actually have power at the moment. Just a small elite that are largely puppets of Western interests. I think people keep confusing the idea that there is a Black African pig leader in control that somehow this means the masses of the people have control...not so whatsoever. Oppressors are oppressors reguardless of their ethnicity/race.

quote:
And ... once you know what you're gonna do with it, you'll know just how much you need and may be surprised that you don't need as much as you thought you did! Big Grin


So how much power do you think the people need for self determination? How do you measure how much power is enough for the masses to have over our own lives? I don't understand what you meant by this statement.


What I guess I'm trying to say is that the people already have the power. There is strength in numbers. It is how out Civil Rights Movement got pushed through to the success it did. A whole bunch of Black people mobilized, initiated protest and protested until they got what they wanted. The stood behind strong, Black leadership that had their best interest at heart.

Now, if the people of Africa, instead of having Black African pig leaders as dictators, could find socially and morally rich leadership, with someone who had their best interests and betterment at heart, I strongly believe that they already have the self-determination and desire (and, yes, power) to change their own circumstances.

Today, all the want-to and determination in the world doesn't stand a chance against the guns and weapons (courtesy of Europe and the West) that those corrupt and morally-bankrupt governments, (most of whom are in bed with above), give to their military in order to oppress their own people. Not to mention that most of those pig leaders learned their ways of war and destruction from their colonizers ... coming to power through military coups in the first place!! Eek

Most of the tribal wars being fought over there, no matter who wins, will more than likely still yield the same results for the average African ... because no matter who may gain the "power" at the moment, unless they will do the right thing with it ... and not just become the West's next bedwarmer ... the oppression continues.

So, to me, it's not just about getting the power ... but what is done with it once it is gotten.

Oh, and as far as not needing as much as you might thing you need ... I think of the people of Venezuela who, after the U.S. tried to kidnap Chavez and force its own government on the Venezuelan people, they kicked up such a fuss and protested and so vehemently demanded his return that we had to give him back!! Eek Eek

They had power. They used it. And all they really did was made their voices be heard. Simple. Smile
quote:
Originally posted by HeruStar:
So jazzdog are you willing to suggest that P. Diddy and Russel Simmons are obligated to promote this "edutainment" of the black community and compromise "OUR" art in doing so. I think the setting for edutainment is in the classroom...


Their (R.Simm & P. Did etc.) only obligation is to promote a balance between the negative and the positive - so that our young people get to see both sides. Something that they do not do.

I remember that when the word "edutaiment" was coined by KRS-1, hip hop WAS the classroom. This is no longer the case.

JazzDog, one thing that I know about music and human behavior is this: the vast majority of people do not know what they want to hear - if you present something enough times with some slick packaging, most will accept it. In other words, we as consumers don't really have the power to make a musical change if someone at the head of the music business has an agenda that is contrary to the process of expanding young minds.

As an example: Educational/pro Black hip hop DID NOT suddenly become unpopular, it did not suddenly stop making money. Rec co. execs realized that millions of young Black minds were being energized to learn more about their culture and history than what was being force fed in the u.s. educational system. Educated minds ask questions, they think, indeed a whole generation was being taught not to trust what they were being told by those in the majority. This could not be allowed to happen - so they simply put a stop to it. Budgets slashed, artists let go, there was no more money in the "declining" music industry. Until gangsta rap came into play. Suddenly, all kinds of money could be found to promote gangsta rappers, before they sold any records.

There are no Black owned media outlets. We do not push the images - they do.
quote:
Educated minds ask questions, they think, indeed a whole generation was being taught not to trust what they were being told by those in the majority. This could not be allowed to happen - so they simply put a stop to it. Budgets slashed, artists let go, there was no more money in the "declining" music industry. Until gangsta rap came into play. Suddenly, all kinds of money could be found to promote gangsta rappers, before they sold any records.

There are no Black owned media outlets. We do not push the images - they do.

Point Of Information:

Didn't Gangster Rap (or at least early "Ghetto Fabulous, Look At Me" Hip Hip) and Concious Rap co-exist at one point?

I, for one, remember the dialogue or rather the Calling Out and Accountability Conscious Rappers called their less concious or non-conscious counterparts to pay heed to. And, either as a result of that "dialogue" or Gangster Raps own introspection (Tupac, Ice Cube) those less than full-time conscious rappers at least spoke about consciousness at some time one some things.

Anyway... please clear me up on the actual historical development. But, obviously, I agree that position like Jazz Dogs are, at best, exaggerated.

I don't fault him, however, for wanting to Accentuate The Positive. By all means we should take the attitude that we "control" the images "we" put out. By all means we should let our voices be heard as it relates to the negative images promoted by "our" art form.

But, if we're going to take ownership?
Where are our rich and powerful when it comes to this discussion? Why are they MIA?

If anything, we should hold them (not just those in the Rap Industry) accountable for not counter-balancing those images. (And that was sort of my point about Conscious Rap and Gangster Rap co-existing. There was a counter-balance then.)

We have all these people complaining about what rap music is doing to our communities but where is the Bill Cosby type money, power and influence in presenting an alternative?

I would like for the "we push these images" crowd to detail how we stop pushing them with respect to a whole industry that has it's economics based on pushing these images.

AUDIO is right. Profit Motive reigns supreme but any serious questioning of "the system" is inherently seen as counterproductive to the Profit Motive of, dare I say, WHITE SUPREMACY.

So, yeah... sure "they" would allow the Edutainment to go on for a while... as long as the Profit Benefits outweighed the potential (problematic) Subordination Costs. Like the brother said: That Edutainment Couldn't Be Allowed To Continue.

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