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Commentary: ˜People of Color' are All One? Latino Inmates in L.A. Don't Think So

Date: Wednesday, February 15, 2006
By: Gregory Kane, BlackAmericaWeb.com


Black Americans are engaged in a race war, but it's not the one you think it is.

And you can bet our traditional "misleaders" -- the Revs. Al Sharpton and Jesse Jackson, the Congressional Black Caucus and Julian Bond and Bruce Gordon of the NAACP -- won't ever talk about this race war.

If you've been reading certain news reports for the past two weeks, you'll know this particular race war is going on in California. And it involves, in the words of Los Angeles County Sheriff Lee Baca, "daily ˜brown on black' violence," according to a recent article in The Washington Post.

Yes, the so-called Third World unity, where "people of color" are supposed to have some kind of solidarity simply because they aren't white, is officially dead. And it should be. Who but silly Negroes ever believed this stuff anyway?

In early February, about 170 Latino inmates at the North County Correctional Facility in Castaic -- which is part of the jail system in Los Angeles County -- attacked 35 black inmates. One black inmate, 45-year-old Wayne Tiznor, was beaten to death.

And that wasn't the first incident of "brown on black" violence in the Los Angeles County jail. The Los Angeles Times listed several others.

Six years ago, Latinos attacked black inmates and injured 80, leaving one man in a coma.

Black and Latino inmates clashed on Jan. 13 of this year.

Six inmates required treatment after 62 black and Latino prisoners fought it out on Dec. 27 of last year.

On Dec. 4 of last year, 22 more inmates were injured after a fight between 162 blacks and Latinos. Three days later, 12 more were injured after a fight involving 117 inmates.

See a pattern here? Are you starting to wonder why our misleaders are always talking about the unity of "people of color" or why they always refer to blacks and Hispanics as if we're one and the same race?

Clearly, the Mexican Mafia doesn't think that way.

The Mexican Mafia has been around a while, since the days of George Jackson, the Black Panther prison activist who was killed in 1971 during an escape attempt from San Quentin penitentiary. Jackson was given a one year-to-life sentence in 1960 for robbing a gas station of $70.

In his famous book of prison letters, "Soledad Brother," Jackson said that when blacks and whites clashed in California's prisons, Mexican-Americans regularly sided with the whites. So we shouldn't be surprised by the following line from a Los Angeles Times story of Feb. 10:

"Investigators said they traced (the) riot to Mexican Mafia gang leaders, who they said ˜greenlighted' Latino jail inmates to attack blacks."

Now, you probably know where I'm going to go with this, but it needs to be said. Suppose that news story had read "investigators said they traced the riot to Aryan Brotherhood gang leaders, who they said ˜greenlighted' white jail inmates to attack blacks." Do you think we'd have heard from Jesse, Al, Julian, Bruce and our illustrious CBC then?

Of course we would have. They'd have screamed bloody murder, charged that white racism was rampant and, no doubt, found a way to blame President George W. Bush, Vice President Dick Cheney, the Supreme Court and Jefferson Davis' mama. But when it comes to "brown on black" violence, we don't get so much as a grunt from our misleaders.

So far, only two prominent blacks have had the backs of the black inmates in the Los Angeles County jail system, who are outnumbered by Latino inmates by two to one. These brothers must be getting that sinking George Armstrong Custer feeling along about now.

One of those blacks is author, columnist and activist Earl Ofari Hutchinson of the Los Angeles Urban Policy Roundtable. According to a Feb. 10 edition of the Los Angeles Times, Hutchinson "called upon political leaders, particularly Latino elected officials, to speak out against the jail attacks. ˜We have got to stop the code of violence,' he said. ˜The silence by every major Latino leader in the city is troubling.'"

The other prominent black is Supreme Court Justice Clarence Thomas. Last year, Thomas voted with a minority of two other justices who said that California could indeed segregate inmates by race for security reasons.

Had the five other justices who ruled on the case voted likewise, Wayne Tiznor might still be alive.
 
 BLACK by NATURE, PROUD by CHOICE.
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Am I the only annoyed by the whole "people of color" catchphrase? First, "people of color" are the majority on this plant, so why invent a catch-all term for the majority, why not the minority? Should we start refering to whites as "people lacking color" or "people of paleness"? Roll Eyes Second, it irks me how all "people of color" are grouped together, despite extreme differences in culture, race, ethnicity, and country of origin. A Nigerian may have the same skin tone as a Dravidian, but therein is where the similarities end. Outside of skin tone, they don't even look remotely similar, are from different continents, and have different customs and languages and religions. If the media really must signify that there are talking about several groups of non-European peoples, why not just list which ones, or at least use the term "non-white"?
quote:
Originally posted by memyselfni:
since i have moved to LA. i have seen too many black people picking at mexicans. truth be told. the mexicans here work harder than the black people. and i think some black people are jealous of that.


I bet those Black folk they work harder than don't include you!!

Silly Negro men and women like Gregory Kane seeks to measure racism by way of violence. We see this same dynamic undertaken by white folk as well when they point out high Black criminality against white folk as a means of saying we are racist but like the white folk aformentioned Gregory Kane ignores the racism that put young Black men on the fast track to prison and criminal behavior. The sad part is nine out of ten of those Black and Latino men in prison are in there for crimes committed agaisnt one of their own, but now this gang unity they have inside makes them see the importance of race unity. Most of them probably could not see its importance until they got behind the wall. Furthermore, the need for a unified front on the outside is not determined or measured by the acts of men in Prison. While I don't buy into the whole people of color idea, I see a need for unity with latino men and women where there exist a shared problem in America beyond that unity amongst ourselves is far more important.
quote:
Originally posted by memyselfni:
since i have moved to LA. i have seen too many black people picking at mexicans. truth be told. the mexicans here work harder than the black people. and i think some black people are jealous of that.


Blacks picking at Mexicans?????? yeah right,they love us soooo well they make cartoons about us(Blacks)........May 2005 and Vincente Fox does that ring a bell????
quote:
Originally posted by Faheem:
quote:
Originally posted by memyselfni:
since i have moved to LA. i have seen too many black people picking at mexicans. truth be told. the mexicans here work harder than the black people. and i think some black people are jealous of that.


I bet those Black folk they work harder than don't include you!!

Silly Negro men and women like Gregory Kane seeks to measure racism by way of violence. We see this same dynamic undertaken by white folk as well when they point out high Black criminality against white folk as a means of saying we are racist but like the white folk aformentioned Gregory Kane ignores the racism that put young Black men on the fast track to prison and criminal behavior. The sad part is nine out of ten of those Black and Latino men in prison are in there for crimes committed agaisnt one of their own, but now this gang unity they have inside makes them see the importance of race unity. Most of them probably could not see its importance until they got behind the wall. Furthermore, the need for a unified front on the outside is not determined or measured by the acts of men in Prison. While I don't buy into the whole people of color idea, I see a need for unity with latino men and women where there exist a shared problem in America beyond that unity amongst ourselves is far more important.



hello no they don't work harder than me. but they have the big houses and many cars and trucks in the drive way while i see black folks standing around trying to hustle or going to the welfare office to get GR. they give welfare to everybody here that eligible men and women. so some black people would rather settle for GR which is only $250 monthly. and they brag about that mess. i'm not saying that no blacks work. its just disappointing to see so many that don't work here in LA.
quote:
Originally posted by 4YAINFO:
quote:
Originally posted by memyselfni:
since i have moved to LA. i have seen too many black people picking at mexicans. truth be told. the mexicans here work harder than the black people. and i think some black people are jealous of that.


Blacks picking at Mexicans?????? yeah right,they love us soooo well they make cartoons about us(Blacks)........May 2005 and Vincente Fox does that ring a bell????



we all know about the cartoon, but you have to be here to see how bad some blacks pick at them. they harass them on buses, call them names and do all kinds of uncalled for stuff. we are all minorities. none if us is better than the next race.
quote:
Originally posted by Dissident:
quote:
Originally posted by memyselfni:

but you have to be here to see how bad some blacks pick at them. they harass them on buses, call them names and do all kinds of uncalled for stuff. we are all minorities. none if us is better than the next race.[/i]


I'am here in California and I must say you have your facts misconstrued...or purposely exaggerated. The only name calling and "uncalled for stuff" I witness on a regular basis is the constant terrorizing of Blacks by Mexicans in the workforce, on the streets, in the mall and just about any other public environment that there is. Not to mention what my cousin tells me who works as a RN in the State Correctional system.

Do you not recall the innocent Black youth who was gun downed in front of his family in the Riverside Mall by a group of Mexicans? Do you not recall that? Do you not recall the innocent Ethiopian teenager who was gun downed in his car by a group of Mexicans in Los Angeles? Do you not recall that? Perhaps you recall the Black family that was burned out of their new home in Azusa because they moved in a predominately mexican neighborhood? Do you not recall that? I can provide you numerous other examples where Blacks have been the victims of racist and terrorist acts perpetrated by Mexicans but unfortunately I don't have that much time.

I'll be waiting for your reply.
quote:
Originally posted by memyselfni:


hello no they don't work harder than me. but they have the big houses and many cars and trucks in the drive way while i see black folks standing around trying to hustle or going to the welfare office to get GR. they give welfare to everybody here that eligible men and women. so some black people would rather settle for GR which is only $250 monthly. and they brag about that mess. i'm not saying that no blacks work. its just disappointing to see so many that don't work here in LA.


Are you Black? I only ask that because if you are that would make you Black people, thus including you in "the Black people" you claim Mexican men and women work harder than. I have no doubt that Black folk are using the welfare system in Los Angeles, but to say this is all you see either means this is all you want to see or you are unfamiliar with statistical data in California in regards to who is getting welfare. Maybe if you took a trip down to the welfare office you would see something different but I can assure you that your observations are flawed. You also want us to believe that Black men and women in LA are bragging about receiving $250 a month that can not pay rent anywhere in Southern California. Lastly, if you don't have a big house and many cars in the drive way, then we must conclude like you have in regards to other Black folk that these Mexican men and women work harder than you.
memyselfni, I'm also curious, are you black? I don't live in LA, but from talking to numerous people, black and non-black, who live do live there, as well as reading numerous articles over the past 10 years regarding black/hispanic relations in LA, I get the distinct impression that this is a conflict primarily being instigated by Mexicans, not blacks.
quote:
Originally posted by by Dissident
The only name calling and "uncalled for stuff" I witness on a regular basis is the constant terrorizing of Blacks by Mexicans in the workforce, on the streets, in the mall and just about any other public environment that there is. Not to mention what my cousin tells me who works as a RN in the State Correctional system.

Dissident, can tell us about some of these things you have wintessed?
I was born and raised in South Central Los Angeles, in the town of Watts. In regards to the Black/Mestizo situation, I've noticed a few things:

When Mestizos are a very small minority in a predominantly Black area, no one pays them any mind. In fact, many of the middle aged and older Black women will often be very friendly, and be a little sympathetic b/c the Mestizos (in this phase) are usually very poor, have many children, and don't speak English. This is my experience, so I don't want to hear anyone crying about generalizations.

As their numbers continue to increase, Blacks become more aware of them, and both groups are on generally good terms, although they are happy to remain socially isolated even when living right next door. Mestizo children will often adopt to urban culture and befriend Black children.

When their numbers increase to where they are approaching half the population, trouble starts. As more of their fellow countrymen join them, the Mestizos tend to group together and take refuge in their own ethnic enclaves. Schools begin to overcrowd, and the Blacks that remain are getting angry that so many of them are can not (or straight out refuse to) speak English. The two groups clash due to cultural differences such as music, food, habits. Furthermore, the Blacks feel as if they are being overwhelmed by an alien people who don't want to integrate. Even though each group was happy to leave the other to itself before, with more numbers the segregation really starts to get apparent, and angers the Blacks.

After the Mestizos pass the half-way point in numbers, they get more economically established, and then they start getting racist..as do the Blacks. Several individuals (sometimes more than a dozen!) will pool their money and buy a house, then buy other houses and rent them to other Mestizos. They establish stores and businesses. The Korean and Arab store owners, and some big chain stores like Home Depot and Walmart, will hire illegal Mestizos over Blacks because they can pay them for a fraction of the price. Blacks begin to get angry at their success, partly ebcaise they feel it comes at a cost to them (in cases like Home Depot, they ahave valid points). Mestizos will straight out refuse to hire Blacks in their businesses, even if fluent in Spanish. The libertarian part of me almost doesn't care, but they have a tendency to be rude to their Black clientel. I've actually seen them let their fellow Mestizos use their restroom, but then deny the Black customers in the same breath. They also talk shit about Blacks in Spanish. Their attitude changes from just wanting to be left alone and get on with their lives to having a "reconquista".

More billboards and signs go up in Spanish, thus further isolating the Enhlish speaking Blacks. Low-rider gangs form, which clash with the Black gangs. On a side note, I'd be tempted to think this were a good thing if it meant that they'd just exterminate one another, but unfortunately too many innocents are hurt in the process, and too many good but wayward kids are pulled into that mess. Blacks start harrassing the Mestizo store owners for their shaddy treatment. The store owners in turn start treating the Blacks worse. As Mestizo kids now have plenty of classmates of the same ethnic and cultural group, they no longer attempt to integrate into popular urban culture. A divide forms between the Black and Mestizo students.

Once the Mestizo population has reached 2/3 of an area, it gets REALLY bad. As the fastly increasing majority, they begin to reshape neighborhoods. The Blacks feel their communtiy is being stolen away; you can't even walk into the nearest McDonalds and order a meal sometimes b/c the employees don't even speak English. Tempers flare, stereotypes flourish. Both sides begin to see any slight--real or imagined--as being due to racism, even if it isn't the case. The groups are now firmly polarized. The more well-to-do Blacks of the area flee to the suburbs or other Black areas. In South LA, there is a trend to either go to Crenshaw (a strongly middle class Black area), the San Fernando Valley (which is already being overrun with Mestizos) or Atlanta, Georgia.

The influx of Mestizos and their high birth rate, and the fleeing of Blacks, creates a Mestizo majority. At schools, the Black children are harrassed by them, and the Blacks in turn get proactive and start bullying lone Mestizos where they can find them. It all goes to hell from there.

Sometimes I feel that segregation isn't such a bad idea......
Segregation may make sense in that situation, but what happens when mestizos come into the black neighborhoods? I'm starting to see a lot of mestizos working at Kroger late at night cleaning the floors. Whether or not they're illegal, I don't know.

Sooner or later, black folks, collectively speaking, will have to take a stand. We already catch hell already with white people alone. The last thing we need is ANOTHER group of people hating/killing/discriminating us.
quote:
Originally posted by Huey:
Sooner or later, black folks, collectively speaking, will have to take a stand.


I've long maintained that illegal immigration hurts urban, working class Blacks more than any other group. In addition to taking over those living spaces (since they tend to be cheaper), they lower the wages and even eliminate jobs. For example, blue collar factory jobs used to be able to provide enough money to sustain a whole family. It was these factory jobs that lured rural Blacks into the cities, and enabled them to have a better of standard of living, buy houses etc... Now, these jobs pay crap b/c for every availale and qualified Black man, they can find 10 Mexicans do to it for next to nothing, anf often don't have to worry about health care, overtime, etc... Even Blacks in the technical and skilled trades are suffering due to lower wages; less Blacks consider careers as roofers, carpenters and the like b/c instead of providing a good living, these jobs are infested with Mestizos who are paid $3/hour.

The most sensible stance for the Black collective would be to actively oppose illegal immigration, but so many of us are stuck on the notion that "if you're nonWhite, you are a brother in the struggle". Horseshit, I say! The enemy of my enemy is NOT my friend! Like Asians, the Mestizos will identify with the "oppressed people of color" line only long enought to gain numbers, influence and a hekping hand, and then it's THEM doing the discrimination.
quote:
Originally posted by UppityNegress:


The most sensible stance for the Black collective would be to actively oppose illegal immigration, but so many of us are stuck on the notion that "if you're nonWhite, you are a brother in the struggle". Horseshit, I say! The enemy of my enemy is NOT my friend! Like Asians, the Mestizos will identify with the "oppressed people of color" line only long enought to gain numbers, influence and a hekping hand, and then it's THEM doing the discrimination.


UppityNegress, while your argument is logical it does not address the complexities of Black men and women being against immigration illegal or otherwise. We do not have to be anti-illegal or legal immigration if one simple thing happens; the enforcing of the laws that are already on the books that says companies will be fined if found hiring men and women who are not citizens of this country. So if any position should be taken by black men and women it should be that one!

Our problem is not illegal immigration; it is the consequences of illegal immigration that have laws in place to prevent them from happening. One of the ways in which one can look at the immigration issues with Mexican men and women migrating north for jobs is how this very phenomena was our reality some sixty years ago when Black folk were migrating from the south to the North for good factory jobs that paid well but as we moved north the salaries fail for those whites who were already in place because Black folk would work for cheaper wages mostly because of racism, and no company was paying us the same as white folk. Such is the case with Mexican men and women except they are entering the country illegally and the Companies that hire than are breaking the law also. So why go after the poor folk, go after the corporations and companies that are breaking the law. You can not stop people from entering this country illegally, it is impossible, there is not enough police to do so and the military is busy right now. So the only way to stop this problem is to stop them from having a reason to come here and that is by enforcing labor laws. Taking an anti-illegal immigration stand is useless and jingoistic and Black folk have no reason to be jingoistic!
quote:
Originally posted by Faheem:
quote:
Originally posted by UppityNegress:


The most sensible stance for the Black collective would be to actively oppose illegal immigration, but so many of us are stuck on the notion that "if you're nonWhite, you are a brother in the struggle". Horseshit, I say! The enemy of my enemy is NOT my friend! Like Asians, the Mestizos will identify with the "oppressed people of color" line only long enought to gain numbers, influence and a hekping hand, and then it's THEM doing the discrimination.


UppityNegress, while your argument is logical it does not address the complexities of Black men and women being against immigration illegal or otherwise. We do not have to be anti-illegal or legal immigration if one simple thing happens; the enforcing of the laws that are already on the books that says companies will be fined if found hiring men and women who are not citizens of this country. So if any position should be taken by black men and women it should be that one!

I agree. But I do not see how these two positions are mutually exclusive. They should both be done.
quote:
Originally posted by Black Viking:
I agree. But I do not see how these two positions are mutually exclusive. They should both be done.


They are mutually exclusive because one is a jingoistic philosophy while the other (mine) is an economical philosophy that solves the problems we have with immigration that has absolutely nothing to do with people simply coming into this country (coming home) for whatever reason. Further more I take the position I have because America is stolen land from the ancestors of the very people you call illegal. I believe it to be hypocritical for a descendant of those who did not have a choice as to if they wanted to come here to say to the descendants of those who were robbed of their land, you are now an illegal immigrant if you enter the lands once owned and tilled by your ancestors that my ancestors tilled for free as enslaved men and women.
I hear you guys that anti-Black racism does exist amongst other "POC". However, many other Minorities could say the same thing about Blacks, I've heard many say that we look down on them and have the view that we are "entitled" to things that they are not. I have noticed that some African-Americans have taken on the White man's attitude of "American Entitlement". The attitude, "I'm an American, I'm not White, but I've been here longer, and these damn foreigners shouldn't be allowed to get ahead of me."


Whether we like it or not, none of us (Blacks and non-Black Minorities) are going anywhere, so we might as well learn to get along. I'm not saying that we should accept racism from them, but I'm also saying that there is racism from us towards them as well (and not all of it is reactionary). The idea that any Minority can "come up" in this country against the White Establishment without cooperating with other oppressed peoples is a pipe dream. One oppressed group can't stand against the powerful while divided with other Victimized groups.


I think there should be an effort, on both sides, to put racism aside and start working together. Jocking for the position of "House Nigger" is a dream deferred, and so are pipedreams of "One day we'll be stronger than the White man all by ourselves".

Think about it, if Blacks did rise to the same level of power as the White Establishment, or beyond, if we have no working relationship with other Minorities, what would we do with that power? What is to say that we won't become the New White Man and try to keep other peoples down? There is a very important thing to keep in mind:

"All who gain power are afraid to lose it."
Empty Purnata, I would agree with you if the attitude of "I am an American" equaled racism. This attitude you speak about is not racist at all although it is jingoistic and rooted in an attempt by some Black folk to ensure they and their children are able to achive economic stability in this nation. The problem is they are focusing their energy at the wrong target, the target isn't the mexican man and woman it is those who seek to exploit them at our expense is the problem.
^I agree. I wasn't equating "I'm an American, damnit" with racism, I was equating it with jingoistic nationalism. Although nationalism can evolve into ethnocentrism and racism.

I think the attitude of "all non-Blacks are not our friends" is exactly how the White man wants us to feel. Divide and Conquer. Divide the fingers, and they can't form a fist.

And, many Minorities are too blinded (or unwilling) to see they're all being bamboozled.
Faheem, I understand what you mean about how being angry at the illegals won't actually solve the poblem of the American corporations who keep hiring them. My anger isn't directed at their success or even their being here so much as the attitudes and behaviors they exhibit while here. Realistically, if I lived in a country full of poverty and corruption, and I had an opportunity to sneak into another country where I'd have a better standard of living and be able to send money home to support relatives, I'd do it. Most people would. You're right; if businesses would quite hiring them, if the governemnt would do their job and actually guard the border, this wouldn't be an issue. However, they DON'T do that, and it IS an issue. Even if things were to dramatically change, the damage has been done, so to speak, with the illegals already here. What I often see with the illegals is a refusal to assimilate or even just respect this country. There's a difference between not knowing English, and straight out refusing to learn it b/c of some bullshit explanation that this land really belongs to you. Some have even taken it up a notch and demand they we learn Spanish! There's a difference between having respect for your native country and then just spitting in the face of your host country by flying a Mexican flag on the American Independence day. Some organizations have even claimed a recpoquista (reclamation) of this country . If the Mestizos have little esteem for Blacks now, you think they'd treat us well if they ever did "reclaim" this land? So yeah, I think economically it makes sense to oppose government inaction and those wealthy businesses, merchants, and such who allow this to happen, but if you don't like the idea of being completely overun by illegals and having your culture and countr shit on, the opposing the act of illegal immigration itself ain't such a bad idea.

[/IMG]
Are you kidding me UppittyNegress? Are you actually suggesting that Mexican men and women give up their identity and assimilate into the "American identify". Are you really asking them to do something Black men and women continued to reject? As a descendant of those who were robbed of everything uniquely ours and having that replaced with everything uniquely European you now want another group of people to do voluntarily do that very thing? Tell me you are kidding.

No people in there right mind would give up anything that is uniquely theirs in this day and this is why we have urban enclaves of every race and ethnic group that is built around their culture, their religion and their languages. It is only natural that Mexican men and women would do the same, and if we still had everything that was uniquely ours we would do the same as demonstrated by what our continental African family members are doing.

As far as Mexican men and women waving their flag, you actually expect them to do something Black folk don't do in large numbers, We don't wave the America Flag today, did not wave it after 9/11 and yet you want Mexican men and women to wave the America flag?
quote:
Originally posted by UppityNegress:

What I often see with the illegals is a refusal to assimilate or even just respect this country.


Part of assimilation is adopting the cultural values of the dominant society, including the biases and prejudices of that society.

BTW, there is no such thing as an "illegal" person.

Actions are illegal, not people.
quote:
Originally posted by Empty Purnata:

I think the attitude of "all non-Blacks are not our friends" is exactly how the White man wants us to feel. Divide and Conquer. Divide the fingers, and they can't form a fist.

And, many Minorities are too blinded (or unwilling) to see they're all being bamboozled.

Seeing other ethnic groups as our friend is not and should not be limited to them simply not being white. We can not continue to use our intellectual prowess and energies defending those who don't defend us when faced with stereotypes and lies about us. Mexican men and women are not trying to defuse, refute or speak truth to the lie that Black folk are lazy and that they work harder than us, in fact the President of Mexico suggested the same thing. While Mexican men and women are not our enemy they should not be embraced simply because they are non-white, far too many people have and continue to benefit from fights against injustice in America that we led and yet don't give us the respect we deserve for making their opportunities possible. So I don't simply accept all none white folk as a friend, because some of them are as much an enemy to our uplift as white folk have been and continue to be.
I don't think it should or even have to be about solidarity or any such thing. Instead of reflecting the degree of assimilation in us and misdirecting our unemployment angst against somebody else trying to get a job (just like some racist White folk), our energies and angst should properly be directed towards the companies circumventing labor laws to hire around us, etc., etc. (as Faheem has said).

Doing that doesn't require that we make alliances with anyone. All it requires is for us to make a principled stance and direct our frustrations to the real culprits.

And yes, if it's "assimilation" that's desired, how in the hell do we think we can separate the racism from the assimilated values and beliefs of any immigrant population?

Yep! I think we've adopted way to many Whitisms. But, again, our position doesn't have to be about playa hatin' on immigrants or about some vague idea of POC solidarity. I mean, how can the Divide & Conquer idea not be so obvious?

Whether we join hands in collective struggle with others, the thing that matters most is that we're directing our energies in the proper direction. I think Faheem outlined that.
quote:
Originally posted by Faheem:
quote:
Originally posted by Empty Purnata:

I think the attitude of "all non-Blacks are not our friends" is exactly how the White man wants us to feel. Divide and Conquer. Divide the fingers, and they can't form a fist.

And, many Minorities are too blinded (or unwilling) to see they're all being bamboozled.

Seeing other ethnic groups as our friend is not and should not be limited to them simply not being white. We can not continue to use our intellectual prowess and energies defending those who don't defend us when faced with stereotypes and lies about us. Mexican men and women are not trying to defuse, refute or speak truth to the lie that Black folk are lazy and that they work harder than us, in fact the President of Mexico suggested the same thing. While Mexican men and women are not our enemy they should not be embraced simply because they are non-white, far too many people have and continue to benefit from fights against injustice in America that we led and yet don't give us the respect we deserve for making their opportunities possible. So I don't simply accept all none white folk as a friend, because some of them are as much an enemy to our uplift as white folk have been and continue to be.


The thing is though, the racism isn't one way, there is also Black racism against non-Black non-Whites.

Yes, I know there are non-Whites out there that are very racist to Blacks (and I'm not saying that ALL of them are our friends, you misunderstand me), but let's be real: we're not exactly saints either. It's not like we were never racist towards them, or that we exactly welcomed them all the time when they first came into this country.

Instead of nit-picking over who is more racist or who was racist first, we should be willing to ally with those that are willing to work with us and defend us in return (I know some like that). Like Nmaginate said, our effort should be directed at business itself, but we should also make some allies too. No one group is powerful or numerous enough to take on the System by themself.


I say Minorities should form their own vanguard parties for their own Communities. But, we can coalition together when it's convenient.
quote:
Originally posted by Faheem:
Are you kidding me UppittyNegress? Are you actually suggesting that Mexican men and women give up their identity and assimilate into the "American identify".

My choice or words were insufficient to convey my thoughts. "Adapt" would probably be more accurate than "assimilate". Am I suggesting they start calling themselves Bob and Susy, dye their hair blonde, and leave all of their cultural trapping behind? Of course not. However, it is considered normal decency to actually learn the language of your host country, and respect the values and tradition of said country. There is a steadfast refusal of a significant portion of the Mestizo population to do this. And before anyone starts asking "why should they", ask yourself if you'd have the same atttude if I were to somehow illegally cross into Mexico, and then state I shouldn't have to learn Spanish and respect their culture. Would you have the same lax attitude, or would I just be a disrespectful and arrogant person? I say this because I have posed this scenario to many people who like to make the "they shouldn't have to" argument; it seems the argument only applies for people coming to the USA.

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No people in there right mind would give up anything that is uniquely theirs in this day and this is why we have urban enclaves of every race and ethnic group that is built around their culture, their religion and their languages.

One thing I didn't properly express was that it wasn't only them refusing to adapt, but actually trying to force their cultures and traditions on US citizens. IFor example, I have a nephew who goes to a school which is now predominantly Mestizo. Let me rephrase that: he is one of only or 4 Black kids in a school of 650 Mestizos and the only Black kid in his second grade class. So many of his classmates don't speak English that the teacher regularly instructs them in Spanish. My brother and his wife are pulling him out of that hell hole, but before that they tried talking to the teacher and school administrators about the situation. What they were basically told was "tough shit; you're kid will just have to learn Spanish and his education will suffer because we're not going to require the students to learn English, and we're not going to place those students in ESL classes, even though ALL of the state exams are in English, and English is the language in which your kid's academic future will be based. If this negatively effects you and yours, I don't care." My brother and his family didn't just stick him in some Mestizo school; the school was traditionally Black but their neighborhood has is now virtually all Mestizo, after only ten years or so. This attitude of "we come in and force you to accomodate us instead of trying to adapt to your established rules, language, and culture" is common wherever Mestizos take over.

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As far as Mexican men and women waving their flag, you actually expect them to do something Black folk don't do in large numbers, We don't wave the America Flag today, did not wave it after 9/11 and yet you want Mexican men and women to wave the America flag?

I have no problem with immigrants displaying their national pride or not waving American flags. What I do have a problem with, however, is them intentionally waving the flag of their own countries on our national holidays as a way of basically saying "Fuck America". This isn't speculation on my part. I actually am fluent in Spanish, and have had Mestizo neighbors, and on Independence Day it was common practice to hear "Viva [El] Mexico" (or less frequently El Salvador) accompanied by disparaging remarks about the United States. If you don't wanna wave the stars and stripes, fine, but don't sit there and insult the country which has given you so much. It can't be that bad if you have to sneak in and then refuse to leave.
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Originally posted by Empty Purnata:
Instead of nit-picking over who is more racist or who was racist first, we should be willing to ally with those that are willing to work with us and defend us in return (I know some like that). Like Nmaginate said, our effort should be directed at business itself, but we should also make some allies too. No one group is powerful or numerous enough to take on the System by themself.

I know I may be about to start a riot, but I can't help myself. Does this statement also apply to white people, or is it impossible for an individual white person to be an ally?
HUH?? Confused @ B.V.

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EMPTY P:

Like Nmaginate said, our effort should be directed at business itself, but we should also make some allies too. No one group is powerful or numerous enough to take on the System by themself.
Nmag has suggested that if more than one group is attacking the system then there is no need, necessarily, to have a platform or idea that we must have allies. If they are about doing the same thing - attacking the system - what is the need for formal alliance when the nature of our "independent" action forms a natural alliance by virtue of us both/all attacking the same system.

If anything, those alliances should come natural. I'm saying if it is meant to be it will come along naturally, organically through the course of our attacks against the system.

There is something diversionary in this idea of that "we need allies," IMO. If someone is our "ally" then the can and will align with us as we pursue our objectives. There is, too, the sanctity of our individual struggles that should not be compromised by trying to form "alliances." Our attack against the system is, in and of itself, an alliance.
UppityNegress, I will first answer your question as to rather or not you should learn the language of the country you migrate to? If one is able to migrate to a country and get all of his or her needs met without having to learn the language of the country, what motivation is there to learn the language? Which means if you entered Mexico and found yourself living in an English speaking enclave, with stores, school and services offered to you in English than I say you do not need to learn the language of the land because apparently the land has allowed accommodations for the language you speak and make concessions for those who speak English. Such is the case for Spanish speaking men and women, which demonstrates again your problem with Mexican men and women is focused at the wrong people. If you have a problem with the accommodations being afforded Spanish speaking men and women, if you have a problem with the concessions being made for them; then your problem is with those who make the concessions and accommodations not with those who receive them.

You speak of it being normal decency to learn the language of your host country? When and where did this become normal and a tradition that is respected? It must have been after the European Colonized damn near the whole world. The true irony in your position is that you speak the language of our colonizer (The English) and the Mestizo's speak the language of their colonizer (The Spaniards) and here you are saying to the Mestizo's if you want to come to this land, you need to learn the language of "my colonizer". I sense a little Stockholm syndrome in your position.

The story of your nephew is indeed a sad story and your family is doing the right thing by moving him out of that school, but yet again your frustrations are directed at the wrong people when it should be directed at the system that fosters, allows and make possible the problem you are speaking about. Finally I am with the Mestizo's when they say Fuck America on the 4th of July, the 10th of November or on a sunny or rainy afternoon in late April. How can you sit there with a straight face and refer to the 4th of July (Independence Day) as "our national holiday"? Who is "our" and when Black folk get included in the "our" as used in your phrase "our national holiday?
Oh how we forget that California, Texas, New Mexico, Nevada, was all a part of Mexico. How about he Native Americans? This is of course if you say people should adopt to the culture and tradition of the host country. This country called America took this country slaughtered the original in habitants and called it their own.Now we talk about the Constitution and all of this but forget to realize the savage way this country was established
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Originally posted by Black Viking:
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Originally posted by Empty Purnata:
Instead of nit-picking over who is more racist or who was racist first, we should be willing to ally with those that are willing to work with us and defend us in return (I know some like that). Like Nmaginate said, our effort should be directed at business itself, but we should also make some allies too. No one group is powerful or numerous enough to take on the System by themself.

I know I may be about to start a riot, but I can't help myself. Does this statement also apply to white people, or is it impossible for an individual white person to be an ally?


LOL, yeah, I would have to say that this would also apply to SOME Whites as well. Although I feel somewhat loathe to admit it, some White people out there are descent people and can empathyze with the causes of oppressed peoples (hell, some White people themselves are oppressed, at least economically). I always notice how some White Leftists and Anarchists take up sympathy with the causes of discriminated Minorities.

But, I'd have to say that for the most part, White people will have to fix White people. We should be very cautious about what White people we make coalitions with and tread cautiously. No matter how friendly a White person may outwardly appear to be, there is always that chance they may just turn on you or possibly be an inside conspirator.

I'm not suggesting idealistic pan-Minority conferate alliances, I'm suggesting that independent Consciousness movements or vanguard parties of respective non-White groups can form coalitions. A coalition is not the same as an Alliance.
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But, I'd have to say that for the most part, White people will have to fix White people. We should be very cautious about what White people we make coalitions with and tread cautiously. No matter how friendly a White person may outwardly appear to be, there is always that chance they may just turn on you or possibly be an inside conspirator.
And I'm saying that for everyone regardless of color. Hell, we have enough to look out for regarding co-conspirators amongst ourselves.
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Originally posted by Nmaginate:
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But, I'd have to say that for the most part, White people will have to fix White people. We should be very cautious about what White people we make coalitions with and tread cautiously. No matter how friendly a White person may outwardly appear to be, there is always that chance they may just turn on you or possibly be an inside conspirator.
And I'm saying that for everyone regardless of color. Hell, we have enough to look out for regarding co-conspirators amongst ourselves.


Word. I've met those types too, and the danger is, THEY ARE EVERYWHERE.

It's bad enough, like you said, that we have CON-Feed, Toussaint, Shebakoby, Sargeant, Condoleeza Rice and Larry Elder types amongst our own. bang
The biggest thing I was trying to communicate is that other POC, e.g., may have very different things if not mostly their own particular self-interested things in mind which can, by virtue of an "alliance", compromise our ultimate objectives.

Like you said, Whites need to work/fix Whites. The same for everyone else and we can meet them in the middle... and, if we should happen to meet along the way and actually identify things in particular things - i.e. singular, specific things (as opposed to the broad or the whole) - that we can be the basis for forming an alliance then cool. But we will always have our own agenda that can't wait for, be contingent on or dependent upon someone else helping us. If anything, we can lead by example. We seem to have a history of that. No need in abandoning it now.

So, when it comes to our relationship with Hispanics, e.g., there are at least three alliances that can be had. Number 1, and first and foremost, is our alliance amongst ourselves. Number 2, theirs amongst themselves. And Number 3 (and in this order and priority) a principled alliance on specific and thoroughly articulated, understood and planned points of commonality. Merely saying "we're all oppressed" or "against the system" isn't enough.
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If you have a problem with the accommodations being afforded Spanish speaking men and women, if you have a problem with the concessions being made for them; then your problem is with those who make the concessions and accommodations not with those who receive them.


Yes, part of my problem is with people who make such concessions--and we as Blacks are those people! We make the concession every time we quietly pull our children from schools that turned from English language to Spanish overnight, instead of demanding that our children be given adequate education in the dominate language of the country. We make a concession every time we leave a neighborhood that is quickly deteriorating in cleanliness, value, and safety instead of calling the proper authorities and reporting the disturbance and safety hazard that twenty people in a three bedroom house creates. We make these concession because we have the mentality that it is just easier to go somewhere else than to nip the problem in the bud. And as a temporary solution, it is easier. However, as a long-term solution, it mereley makes things so much worse. One way to stop this mentality of making concessions this is to take a fundamental stance against illegal immigration that isn't in our best interest.


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The story of your nephew is indeed a sad story and your family is doing the right thing by moving him out of that school, but yet again your frustrations are directed at the wrong people when it should be directed at the system that fosters, allows and make possible the problem you are speaking about.


Oh, but my anger is directed at the system. The incoming immigrants are part of that system, and not just some periphereal factor. When you knowingly work to my disadvantage, then you are included in the system, and while perhaps not as culpable as those higher up who shrug and allow such a system to develop in the first place, you're still culpable.

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The true irony in your position is that you speak the language of our colonizer (The English) and the Mestizo's speak the language of their colonizer (The Spaniards) and here you are saying to the Mestizo's if you want to come to this land, you need to learn the language of "my colonizer".


So just because my native langauge happened to come from some other racial group, I have no right to demand that illegal immigrants who find their way into this country should at least respect that langauge not try to force their language on me? I don't care where it comes from! It's mine! I've spoken it all my life, as have everyone in my family I can trace back to the late nineteenth century. For anyone who wants to wittily suggest that I expand my horizons my learing Spanish, I have, along with two other langauges, so please don't bother.

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How can you sit there with a straight face and refer to the 4th of July (Independence Day) as "our national holiday"?

How can I sit here and think of it as my national holiday? [rant] Well, I'd like to think that the blood of all the Black men (and more recently women) who died in the armed forces entitles me that right. I know the history of Independence Day, I know that Blacks were were viewed as little better than cattle. It's not the origins or the reason that I honor, it's the sacrifice that it symbolizes. While our men may have been defending a country that didn't even see them as citizens, the fact that they died for this country, many willingly, leads me to at least honor their courage and sacrifice. We've been here for centuries, our men have poured out so much blood in defense of this land. To me, it shows perserverance in the face of oppression, and success. [/rant]

Sorry for the rant. Getting back to the topic at hand: I'm actually not against anyone saying "fuck America" on ID in general. However, if you willingly migrate here, attain a much better life than you would otherwise have, and then refuse to leave, you have no right to criticise anything here. If your house is in shambles and you find refuge in mine, then who TF are you to criticize the way I run my household?

off For the record, I think of the whole Revolution little more than a temper tantrum; the "Revolutionaries" were fighting in part against taxation without representation, when really it was the native English who had more reason to be pissed that money they scarcely had was being used to fight the wars and finance a population of wealthy folks and criminal deports in a land they'd never see.
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Originally posted by Nmaginate:
The biggest thing I was trying to communicate is that other POC, e.g., may have very different things if not mostly their own particular self-interested things in mind which can, by virtue of an "alliance", compromise our ultimate objectives.

Like you said, Whites need to work/fix Whites. The same for everyone else and we can meet them in the middle... and, if we should happen to meet along the way and actually identify things in particular things - i.e. singular, specific things (as opposed to the broad or the whole) - that we can be the basis for forming an alliance then cool. But we will always have our own agenda that can't wait for, be contingent on or dependent upon someone else helping us. If anything, we can lead by example. We seem to have a history of that. No need in abandoning it now.

So, when it comes to our relationship with Hispanics, e.g., there are at least three alliances that can be had. Number 1, and first and foremost, is our alliance amongst ourselves. Number 2, theirs amongst themselves. And Number 3 (and in this order and priority) a principled alliance on specific and thoroughly articulated, understood and planned points of commonality. Merely saying "we're all oppressed" or "against the system" isn't enough.


Agreed.

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