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BLACK AFRICANS OF ANCIENT EGYPT WROTE THE HOLY BIBLE-AND THE CATHOLIC CHURCH IS HIDING AND SUPPRESSING THIS TRUTH.

African Man and Woman: "And Ye Shall Know The Truth, and The Truth Shall Make You Free." Holy Bible-John 8 : 32. According to a Ghanaian writer and researcher based in the United States of America (USA), Nana Banchie Darkwah, Ph.D., emphatically states this as fact in his book: 'The Africans Who Wrote The Bible-Ancient Secrets Africa and Christianity Have Never Told', Aduana Publishing Co., 2000, P.O. Box 2781, Russellville, AR. 72802, USA. " However, the worst lie and sin of the Church was the premeditated transformation of the racial and ethnic identities of Jesus Christ, his mother and the entire people of the Bible from black people they were to white people to satisfy emerging European racist sentiments against black people"(Nana Banchie Darkwah, ibid. introduction, page i).

First of all, for one to understand the truth of the above statement and accept it as a fact, that Black Africans of Ancient Egypt Wrote The Holy Bible, thus, one must dispel the erroneous notion and fabricated lies that Christian Europe, particularly the Catholic Church, have done in painting the Ancient Egyptians as pagans, heathens and devils. Also, one must understand that Christian Europe's and the Catholic Church's motives for attacking Ancient Egypt in such a negative vein, is due to the fact that Ancient Egyptian Priests were the Scribes who wrote what we have come to know today as the Holy Bible. Moreover, Ancient Egypt from its pre-dynastic period up to its Golden-Age of pyramid building was a an unadulterated predominately Black race of people (3500-2100 B.C.E.).

The descendants of these Ancient Egyptians are living throughout Sub-Saharan Africa, today, particularly in the nations of Ghana, Nigeria and Cote d'Ivoire. The very first "Bible" or "Scroll" on record produced by man, with regards to paying honour and divine respect to a "Creator of all Mankind" was that of African people of the Nile Valley and Great Lakes regions of Central, East and Northeast Africa. The Book was called by its African Creators and developers..."The Book of The Coming Forth By Day and Night." It was translated from its original hieroglyphic text into the English language by several Europeans since the latter part of the 19th Century A.D. The easiest one to read is called.."The" (Egyptian) "Book of the Dead." This work was translated by British Egyptologist Sir Ernest A. Wallis Budge, London, 1895 A.D. This Original Bible was produced by Black Africans approximately 3,400 years before the Old Testament, and more than 4,200 years before the New Testament, and countless Versions of it have been written and published (Dr. Ben Jochannan, A Chronology of the Bible-Challenge To The Standard Version, USA.).

-NKWA(ANKH)-

"This Ancient Egyptian cross is the earliest and most ancient sacred symbol of religion. Egyptologist that believe they have successfully deciphered Ancient Egyptian hieroglyphics say it is called the ANKH, meaning LIFE. The meaning is correct, however, that is not what the Ancient Egyptians called it. The original Ancient Egyptian word that Egyptologists tried to decipher was NKWA. The language from which this word originated is Akan and it actually means LIFE. This symbol was the Ancient Egyptian sacred religious symbol that reinforced the cross on which Jesus was crucified, as a sacred Christian symbol. How did this happen? The early Christian Church of Ancient Egypt adopted the NKWA symbol as the symbol of their Church and called it Crux Ansata. From here, it was taken to Rome, and there it became a Christian symbol with only a slight variation in design. The symbol of NWKA below was excavated from the tomb of the Akan King Tutu Ankoma, the boy king of Ancient Egypt whose name Europeans have corrupted to Tutankhamun. He ruled from 1336-1327 B.C." (Nana Banchie Darkwah, Ph.D.). Picture of The NKWA (ANKH-CROSS) -Picture of Akan King Tutu Ankoma-Boy King of Ancient Egypt(Name Europeanized to Tutankhamun)- -Ethnic (Tribal) Groups and Intelligentsia of Ancient Egypt- Nana Darkwah (The Africans Who Wrote The Bible) says that the intelligentsia of Ancient Egypt was headed by such ethnic groups as the Akan, Ewe, Ga-Andangbe, Hausa and Ibo. However, he asserts that the Akan was the main ruling class in Ancient Egypt since the majority of Ancient Egyptian kings had Akan names. He gives an example of the Egyptian king of the fourth dynasty who built the Great Pyramid was "Akuffu" and not "Khuffu". Also, Nana Darkwah gives the correct Akan name of the younger son of Akuffu as "Dade Afre" and not "Djedefra", and his elder son was"Okyere Afre" and not "Chephren". He goes on to cite the western scholars incorrect naming of the Ancient Egyptian city Memphis. He says Memphis was an ancient African city and it is still a modern African city called Mamfe. He says Mamfe is located today in the eastern region of Ghana of the Akuapem people. "These are the people of Ancient Egyptian kings Akuffu, Dade Afre, and Okyere Afre and others" " (Nana Darkwah, The Africans Who Wrote the Bible, page xii). -Ga-Adangme In Ancient Egypt & Israel-

The history of Ancient Egypt also has numerous Ga-Adangme names, confirming that the Ga people were in Ancient Israel (Kanaan) and Ancient Egypt. Also, one can find Ga names amongst today's so-called Jewish people. "The most popular of the Ga-Adangme names used by today 's so-called Jewish people is the name of the former Prime Minister of Israel, called Netanyahu. This name was derived from the two Ga-Adangme names "Natey" and "Nyaho"-Neteynyaho" (Nana Darkwah, The Africans Who Wrote The Bible, page 31). -Ewe People In Ancient Times- Around 2700 B.C.E., the Ewe people were among the African ethnic groups that lived in the region of modern day Syria, stretching down to the estuary of the Tigris and Euphrates Rivers. In the book Civilization Before Greece and Rome, H.W. F. Saggs stated that Egyptian documents mentioned a major international power in north Syria called Kheta, and the cuneiform inscriptions knew of a land of Hatti linked to Carchemish on the Euphrates in north Syria. Hatti and Kheta were evidently the same name .(1989, page 10). Incidentally, the ancient name Carchemish on the Euphrates River in north Syria reveals that the Ga ethnic group lived in this region. The name Carchemish derives from the Ga language. It is derived from the Ga words Kaa Kee Mi-meaning do not tell me. Note: "Mi" in the Ga language is the same semantically and phonologically as the English word "M" (Nana Darkwah, The Africans Who Wrote The Bible, page 123). Now, the Ewe ethnic group. The international power that was in the region of north Syria was the Ewe people.

This fact can be discerned because they left their language. The words and names Hatti and Khetta are from the Ewe language. These are names that are still used by Ewe people, today. Ancient Kheta was a geographical location of a place of the Ewe people in North Syria. Today, the Ewe people have established a city named Keta located in the Volta Region of Ghana. The Ewe people were later in Ancient Egypt where they were also Kings and Priests along side the Akan and Ga-Adangme. "They were linked to the El Amarna Letters found in 1887 in modern Egypt. These letters are believed to have been the correspondence between Amenofe III (an Ewe name) and his son Akenten from 1370-1349 B.C. The name Amenophis is the Greek corruption of the modern Ewe name Amenofe (ending pronounced with an aspirant p)." "The Ewe people were therefore not only established in the region of the Tigris and Euphrates Rivers, they were also established in Ancient Egypt and their story was part of Ancient Egyptian history, literature, and folklore. It was from there that their story also became a part of the biblical story" (ibid. page 124).

"The early apostolic fathers of Christianity and the Church knew of many things that they did not want Christian masses to know about the background history, content and people of the Bible. As a result, the very design of Christianity was based upon protecting the Bible from the lay masses. Until the Reformation, therefore, the Bible was secretly guarded and its content was known to only a few in the Church. Because of the perceived need to protect the Bible from the masses, the earliest design and practice of Christianity was based upon placing a cadre of priests between the Bible and the people" (ibid. page i). -Aryan-Whites Know Well of The Black African Origin of Judaism & Christianity- The African origin of Christianity was common knowledge among western scholars and early apostolic fathers of the Church long before the European Renaissance. This was common knowledge known by Aryan-Whites in the past and is still known, today.

There have been numerous European scholars who have known and written about the falsehoods, fabrications and false assumptions in the foundation of Christianity. One such European-American researcher and writer was Gerald Massey, Volume 1 of 'The Natural Genesis: A Book of the Beginnings (1883). Massey called the story and practice of Christianity the legendary lying lore. In 'The Aryan Myth: A History of Racist and Nationalistic Ideas in Europe, Leon Poliakov revealed that knowledge of the people of the Bible as Black people was common in Europe and in early European scholarship. James Cowles Prichard, by far the most popular anthropologist of the first half of the 19th century, elaborated around 1810 implying that Adam and Eve were Blacks (1996, page 211 see also Histoire Naturelle, pages 146-7, 151). In 1836, a knighted and renowned British orientalist, Sir Godfrey Higggins wrote 'The Anaclypsis, or an inquiry into the Origin of Languages, Nations, and Religions. He pointed out that the people of the Bible were Black and that in all the early Catholic Churches of Europe: "the God Christ, as well as his mother, are described in their old pictures to be black (peoples). The infant God in the arms of his black mother, his eyes and drapery white , is himself perfectly black" (1836 page 7, see also Was Jesus Christ A Negro and The African Origin of the Myths and Legends of the Garden of Eden, page 14). -More Proof of Black Jesus and His Mother Mary- In 1875, Kersey Graves wrote a book entitled 'The World's Sixteen Crucified Saviors'. Graves pointed out from clear evidence in Europe, that Jesus was Black and the people of the Bible were originally Black people. He wrote the following below:

There is as much evidence that the Christian Savior was a black man, or at least a dark man, as there is of his being the son of the Virgin Mary, or that he once lived And moved upon the earth. And that evidence is the testimony of his disciples, who had nearly as good an opportunity of knowing what his complexion was as the evangelists who omit to say anything about it..In the pictures and portraits of Christ by early Christians he is uniformly represented as being black (from The World's Sixteen Crucified Saviors, cited in Was Jesus Christ A Negro.reprinted in 1987 by Curtis Alexander, ed.) Note: Jesus (Christ) said before his execution by the Romans that "Whatsoever Is Bound On Earth Is Bound In Heaven-And St Peters Has The Keys To Heaven." The statue of St. Peters inside St. Peter's Basilica in Rome, Italy is a Black man. St. Peters was a Black man. Thus, Jesus' last words before his execution was that a Black man has the keys to Heaven. This statement implied that all humanity must come through the Black race to enter Heaven. A similar statement was said by the Muslim Prophet Mohamed. Mohamed saw the feet of Bilal enter Heaven before himself. In Islamic teachings, Bilal was a Black Ethiopian slave before being liberated and subsequently becoming one of the 'first' converts to the Islamic faith. . -European Hatred of Jews And Blacks-Deeply Rooted In Religious Jealousy- Historically, the aristocracy of Europe has always shown hatred against the so-called Jewish people, since it was well known in their socio-political and economic circles that these people were of a Black African origin, who migrated out of Ancient Egypt up into Europe.

Due to the negative anthropological ideas and theories of early European scholars against Black Africans, thus, the knowledge and reality that Judaeo-Christian foundations of Europe actually originated from African theosophy and philosophy, has surely been a major source of social-political embarrassment for Europeans. The racist and extremist Europeans had always seen the so-called Jewish people with suspicion and contempt vis-à-vis their same contempt and ill-feelings they had towards Sub-Saharan Africans. That is to say, historically, the Europeans had no genesis of religion to claim as their own, other than what came up 'out of Africa', Christianity, which was brought to them by the so-called Jews. This fact has left the European (Aryan-Whites) with bitterness, enmity and jealousy against the so-called Jewish peoples and Africans.

Also, this fomented ill feelings among Europeans that the so-called Jewish people had deliberately deceived them so that the Jews would dominate Europe. "This is also the reason no credible reason has been given for the most atrocious massacre of blacks and Jews in human history" (Nana Darkwah, ibid. page 23). Finally, one must know that Aryan-White (European and American) tradition, Apostolic fathers of the Church, theosophical teachings and writings, as well as the Arabs, have all laboured over the past 500 years, trying to disconnect Black Africans from Ancient Egypt, in order to hide the true identity of the original authors of the Bible and the origin from whence the Bible originated, which was Ancient Egypt. In essence, what the Aryan-White race has attempted to do by 'high-jacking' Ancient Egypt: The strategy has been to kill the "Messenger" (Black Ancient Egyptians), but save and embrace the "Message" of the messenger for themselves (the Holy Bible text). It is important to know that Western curiosity and interest in Ancient Egypt, wanting it to be recognized at its genesis as an Aryan-White or Asian Civilization, thus induced Western scholarship to create the discipline science called Egyptology.

The Aryan-White race's main objective in establishing Egyptolgy is to destroy the Black African genesis of Ancient Egypt, and give the world a counterfeit analysis of this Great Civilization as being a creation of the Aryan-White race. However, the late Dr. Cheikh Anta Diop (Senegalese), who was a Physicist-Scientist, Egyptologist, Palaeo-anthropologist and World Historian, eloquently sums up the essence of the Aryan-White race's futile attempts to 'white-wash' Ancient Egypt. Diop: "Mankind trying to destroy the Black African genesis of Ancient Egypt, is like trying to drown a fish in the vast ocean!" BY THE MASTER TEACHER H.M. MAULANA.


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Well, which is it, Afroman: is the Church founded by blacks as many say, or is it founded and ruled from the beginning by whites as you have just said?

You show no proof of your thesis, you'll note.

The ankh is not the origin of the cross. The cross did not appear until Christianity, and that was because the cross was an instrument of Roman capital punishment. The ankh had nothing to do with the cross because the cross was not a disguise, it was a proclamation--Jesus died for you and me. That's where the cross came from, not from the ankh.

Look at the first known examples of the cross: in the catacomb art of ancient Rome. It was a way the Church had of keeping the important things important.

The rest of your post is merely speculation and an ill-tempered screed.
Melesi Afroman did not write the above so why are you accusing him of it and asking him to show PROOF OF HIS THESIS.

In one post a few minutes ago you accused me of hating Christians when I am a dedicted and active Christian and have never demonstrated what you accused me off and now here you are attacking the messenger for information presented. Are you sure you are okay today?

_____________________________
Is it just talk or are you for solutions? If you are GENUINELY interested in solving black problems? Then join us at http://www.theguidedog.com/BlackNation.html
Henry,

A fair question. I think I am, enough anyway to apologize to you on that other thread for getting you rather wrong and my wording imprecise.

However, Afroman presented this thesis--as a quote to be sure--as true. He could easily have supported his (it is his, since he presented it as true and not merely as a debating topic) thesis with examples or other proof, but he didn't. So while my wording may have seemed off the point, I don't think that it was.

If you'd like, however, I can ask him the question:

Afroman, do you agree with the quote you posted?
Poor Melesi...

If Afroman "quoted" something... I think that would be "proof" or at least reference (the book and author) to the "proof" of his posting.

Just because you don't believe it does not make it something that is not so. Where is your proof to the contrary.

As to your question of which is it?
It's implicit in what was quoted. The Bible and Church/Christian history that we "know" of is what White Christendom has promulgated.

What is referred to as the [BLACK] African genesis... is self-explanatory and it goes without saying that the Black founding existed in a form different from "what we know"...

Stop playing ignorant in order to promote your self-interest and BIAS!

Which is it? Are you objective with knowledge of the whole truth or are you skewed by your "own understanding" and what fits comfortably in your worldview.

It's pretty idiotic for some to acknowledge the history of racism and hold a pretense that History itself is free from that racism. In other words, I'm charging you, Melesi with perhaps with upholding less than objective history as objective history...

Of course we can debate all that... but don't be so sure that what you have come to know is "objective" and free of a racist bent. It doesn't require David Duke types to be racially biased.

When you have parallel symbols and/or symbols that are similar... (the cross and the ankh)... it's only reasonable to quiry if the latter is DERIVED from the former. A derivation does not have to be the same and exact replica of the original.

The Negative Confessions... cause one to wonder if the Ten Commandments are, in fact, direct derivations.

Your game that it's not the same... well... is lame... it lacks all common sense about how things are adapted when employed by different people.

Did MLK duplicate exactly what Ghandi did given that his philosophy of non-violence was derived from Ghandi? i.e. Were the boycotts and sit-ins the same exact tactics Ghandi employed?

If it was not for MLK crediting Ghandi or citing him... wouldn't Americans who are not acquainted with Ghandi attribute the creation of the non-violence philosophy of MLK to MLK and MLK only?

A little common sense and less obfuscation please Melesi.
quote:
Originally posted by Melesi:
Well, which is it, Afroman: is the Church founded by blacks as many say, or is it founded and ruled from the beginning by whites as you have just said?

You show no proof of your thesis, you'll note.

The ankh is not the origin of the cross. The cross did not appear until Christianity, and that was because the cross was an instrument of Roman capital punishment. The ankh had nothing to do with the cross because the cross was not a disguise, it was a proclamation--Jesus died for you and me. That's where the cross came from, not from the ankh.

Look at the first known examples of the cross: in the catacomb art of ancient Rome. It was a way the Church had of keeping the important things important.

The rest of your post is merely speculation and an ill-tempered screed.


This is again the extent to which you are complying with our conqueror propaganda Melesi!! Who are you trying to convince here? Certainly not me, I'm not a "house slave" wannabe of the world. As a BLACK man who knows too much African contribution to history I cannot focus on your European ideology with your falsehood as History. The cross was always favorite symbol among the ancients Africans because they create it! The first cross was the Ankh and it was African No only this can be found on the oldest records of man but this can be found in archeology. Besides the base of their pyramids are square. The pyramids are built on astronomical lines, so is the cross. These crosses were drawn from the oldest conception of Africans. To our African ancestors the Cross was the most Sacred symbol of all, they represented "The Great Powerful Ones" that are the Cardinal Points: North, South, East and West as well as The Four Great Primary Forces coming form the Almighty. The cross thus represent the idea of eternal life, the CREATOR not the barbaric sacrifice of a man in that religion of yours. Whether you like it or not we are the originators of religion. You Christians have to deal with the fact that the early Christian Church used many African ideas. Speak to a Coptic or Gnostic Christian, they will tell you. The type of "religion" you always talk about is very ethnocentric and damaging to African spirituality. Falsehood is the way of the conqueror. NOT our ancestors!! Now go write to your white people for a change..

AfroMan.

[This message was edited by Afroman on January 01, 2004 at 01:40 AM.]
quote:
Originally posted by Afroman:
BLACK AFRICANS OF ANCIENT EGYPT WROTE THE HOLY BIBLE-AND THE CATHOLIC CHURCH IS HIDING AND SUPPRESSING THIS TRUTH.

African Man and Woman: "And Ye Shall Know The Truth, and The Truth Shall Make You Free." Holy Bible-John 8 : 32. According to a Ghanaian writer and researcher based in the United States of America (USA), Nana Banchie Darkwah, Ph.D., emphatically states this as fact in his book: 'The Africans Who Wrote The Bible-Ancient Secrets Africa and Christianity Have Never Told', Aduana Publishing Co., 2000, P.O. Box 2781, Russellville, AR. 72802, USA. " However, the worst lie and sin of the Church was the premeditated transformation of the racial and ethnic identities of Jesus Christ, his mother and the entire people of the Bible from black people they were to white people to satisfy emerging European racist sentiments against black people"(Nana Banchie Darkwah, ibid. introduction, page i).

First of all, for one to understand the truth of the above statement and accept it as a fact, that Black Africans of Ancient Egypt Wrote The Holy Bible, thus, one must dispel the erroneous notion and fabricated lies that Christian Europe, particularly the Catholic Church, have done in painting the Ancient Egyptians as pagans, heathens and devils. Also, one must understand that Christian Europe's and the Catholic Church's motives for attacking Ancient Egypt in such a negative vein, is due to the fact that Ancient Egyptian Priests were the Scribes who wrote what we have come to know today as the Holy Bible. Moreover, Ancient Egypt from its pre-dynastic period up to its Golden-Age of pyramid building was a an unadulterated predominately Black race of people (3500-2100 B.C.E.).

The descendants of these Ancient Egyptians are living throughout Sub-Saharan Africa, today, particularly in the nations of Ghana, Nigeria and Cote d'Ivoire. The very first "Bible" or "Scroll" on record produced by man, with regards to paying honour and divine respect to a "Creator of all Mankind" was that of African people of the Nile Valley and Great Lakes regions of Central, East and Northeast Africa. The Book was called by its African Creators and developers..."The Book of The Coming Forth By Day and Night." It was translated from its original hieroglyphic text into the English language by several Europeans since the latter part of the 19th Century A.D. The easiest one to read is called.."The" (Egyptian) "Book of the Dead." This work was translated by British Egyptologist Sir Ernest A. Wallis Budge, London, 1895 A.D. This Original Bible was produced by Black Africans approximately 3,400 years before the Old Testament, and more than 4,200 years before the New Testament, and countless Versions of it have been written and published (Dr. Ben Jochannan, A Chronology of the Bible-Challenge To The Standard Version, USA.).

-NKWA(ANKH)-

"This Ancient Egyptian cross is the earliest and most ancient sacred symbol of religion. Egyptologist that believe they have successfully deciphered Ancient Egyptian hieroglyphics say it is called the ANKH, meaning LIFE. The meaning is correct, however, that is not what the Ancient Egyptians called it. The original Ancient Egyptian word that Egyptologists tried to decipher was NKWA. The language from which this word originated is Akan and it actually means LIFE. This symbol was the Ancient Egyptian sacred religious symbol that reinforced the cross on which Jesus was crucified, as a sacred Christian symbol. How did this happen? The early Christian Church of Ancient Egypt adopted the NKWA symbol as the symbol of their Church and called it Crux Ansata. From here, it was taken to Rome, and there it became a Christian symbol with only a slight variation in design. The symbol of NWKA below was excavated from the tomb of the Akan King Tutu Ankoma, the boy king of Ancient Egypt whose name Europeans have corrupted to Tutankhamun. He ruled from 1336-1327 B.C." (Nana Banchie Darkwah, Ph.D.). Picture of The NKWA (ANKH-CROSS) -Picture of Akan King Tutu Ankoma-Boy King of Ancient Egypt(Name Europeanized to Tutankhamun)- -Ethnic (Tribal) Groups and Intelligentsia of Ancient Egypt- Nana Darkwah (The Africans Who Wrote The Bible) says that the intelligentsia of Ancient Egypt was headed by such ethnic groups as the Akan, Ewe, Ga-Andangbe, Hausa and Ibo. However, he asserts that the Akan was the main ruling class in Ancient Egypt since the majority of Ancient Egyptian kings had Akan names. He gives an example of the Egyptian king of the fourth dynasty who built the Great Pyramid was "Akuffu" and not "Khuffu". Also, Nana Darkwah gives the correct Akan name of the younger son of Akuffu as "Dade Afre" and not "Djedefra", and his elder son was"Okyere Afre" and not "Chephren". He goes on to cite the western scholars incorrect naming of the Ancient Egyptian city Memphis. He says Memphis was an ancient African city and it is still a modern African city called Mamfe. He says Mamfe is located today in the eastern region of Ghana of the Akuapem people. "These are the people of Ancient Egyptian kings Akuffu, Dade Afre, and Okyere Afre and others" " (Nana Darkwah, The Africans Who Wrote the Bible, page xii). -Ga-Adangme In Ancient Egypt & Israel-

The history of Ancient Egypt also has numerous Ga-Adangme names, confirming that the Ga people were in Ancient Israel (Kanaan) and Ancient Egypt. Also, one can find Ga names amongst today's so-called Jewish people. "The most popular of the Ga-Adangme names used by today 's so-called Jewish people is the name of the former Prime Minister of Israel, called Netanyahu. This name was derived from the two Ga-Adangme names "Natey" and "Nyaho"-Neteynyaho" (Nana Darkwah, The Africans Who Wrote The Bible, page 31). -Ewe People In Ancient Times- Around 2700 B.C.E., the Ewe people were among the African ethnic groups that lived in the region of modern day Syria, stretching down to the estuary of the Tigris and Euphrates Rivers. In the book Civilization Before Greece and Rome, H.W. F. Saggs stated that Egyptian documents mentioned a major international power in north Syria called Kheta, and the cuneiform inscriptions knew of a land of Hatti linked to Carchemish on the Euphrates in north Syria. Hatti and Kheta were evidently the same name .(1989, page 10). Incidentally, the ancient name Carchemish on the Euphrates River in north Syria reveals that the Ga ethnic group lived in this region. The name Carchemish derives from the Ga language. It is derived from the Ga words Kaa Kee Mi-meaning do not tell me. Note: "Mi" in the Ga language is the same semantically and phonologically as the English word "M" (Nana Darkwah, The Africans Who Wrote The Bible, page 123). Now, the Ewe ethnic group. The international power that was in the region of north Syria was the Ewe people.

This fact can be discerned because they left their language. The words and names Hatti and Khetta are from the Ewe language. These are names that are still used by Ewe people, today. Ancient Kheta was a geographical location of a place of the Ewe people in North Syria. Today, the Ewe people have established a city named Keta located in the Volta Region of Ghana. The Ewe people were later in Ancient Egypt where they were also Kings and Priests along side the Akan and Ga-Adangme. "They were linked to the El Amarna Letters found in 1887 in modern Egypt. These letters are believed to have been the correspondence between Amenofe III (an Ewe name) and his son Akenten from 1370-1349 B.C. The name Amenophis is the Greek corruption of the modern Ewe name Amenofe (ending pronounced with an aspirant p)." "The Ewe people were therefore not only established in the region of the Tigris and Euphrates Rivers, they were also established in Ancient Egypt and their story was part of Ancient Egyptian history, literature, and folklore. It was from there that their story also became a part of the biblical story" (ibid. page 124).

"The early apostolic fathers of Christianity and the Church knew of many things that they did not want Christian masses to know about the background history, content and people of the Bible. As a result, the very design of Christianity was based upon protecting the Bible from the lay masses. Until the Reformation, therefore, the Bible was secretly guarded and its content was known to only a few in the Church. Because of the perceived need to protect the Bible from the masses, the earliest design and practice of Christianity was based upon placing a cadre of priests between the Bible and the people" (ibid. page i). -Aryan-Whites Know Well of The Black African Origin of Judaism & Christianity- The African origin of Christianity was common knowledge among western scholars and early apostolic fathers of the Church long before the European Renaissance. This was common knowledge known by Aryan-Whites in the past and is still known, today.

There have been numerous European scholars who have known and written about the falsehoods, fabrications and false assumptions in the foundation of Christianity. One such European-American researcher and writer was Gerald Massey, Volume 1 of 'The Natural Genesis: A Book of the Beginnings (1883). Massey called the story and practice of Christianity the legendary lying lore. In 'The Aryan Myth: A History of Racist and Nationalistic Ideas in Europe, Leon Poliakov revealed that knowledge of the people of the Bible as Black people was common in Europe and in early European scholarship. James Cowles Prichard, by far the most popular anthropologist of the first half of the 19th century, elaborated around 1810 implying that Adam and Eve were Blacks (1996, page 211 see also Histoire Naturelle, pages 146-7, 151). In 1836, a knighted and renowned British orientalist, Sir Godfrey Higggins wrote 'The Anaclypsis, or an inquiry into the Origin of Languages, Nations, and Religions. He pointed out that the people of the Bible were Black and that in all the early Catholic Churches of Europe: "the God Christ, as well as his mother, are described in their old pictures to be black (peoples). The infant God in the arms of his black mother, his eyes and drapery white , is himself perfectly black" (1836 page 7, see also Was Jesus Christ A Negro and The African Origin of the Myths and Legends of the Garden of Eden, page 14). -More Proof of Black Jesus and His Mother Mary- In 1875, Kersey Graves wrote a book entitled 'The World's Sixteen Crucified Saviors'. Graves pointed out from clear evidence in Europe, that Jesus was Black and the people of the Bible were originally Black people. He wrote the following below:

There is as much evidence that the Christian Savior was a black man, or at least a dark man, as there is of his being the son of the Virgin Mary, or that he once lived And moved upon the earth. And that evidence is the testimony of his disciples, who had nearly as good an opportunity of knowing what his complexion was as the evangelists who omit to say anything about it..In the pictures and portraits of Christ by early Christians he is uniformly represented as being black (from The World's Sixteen Crucified Saviors, cited in Was Jesus Christ A Negro.reprinted in 1987 by Curtis Alexander, ed.) Note: Jesus (Christ) said before his execution by the Romans that "Whatsoever Is Bound On Earth Is Bound In Heaven-And St Peters Has The Keys To Heaven." The statue of St. Peters inside St. Peter's Basilica in Rome, Italy is a Black man. St. Peters was a Black man. Thus, Jesus' last words before his execution was that a Black man has the keys to Heaven. This statement implied that all humanity must come through the Black race to enter Heaven. A similar statement was said by the Muslim Prophet Mohamed. Mohamed saw the feet of Bilal enter Heaven before himself. In Islamic teachings, Bilal was a Black Ethiopian slave before being liberated and subsequently becoming one of the 'first' converts to the Islamic faith. . -European Hatred of Jews And Blacks-Deeply Rooted In Religious Jealousy- Historically, the aristocracy of Europe has always shown hatred against the so-called Jewish people, since it was well known in their socio-political and economic circles that these people were of a Black African origin, who migrated out of Ancient Egypt up into Europe.

Due to the negative anthropological ideas and theories of early European scholars against Black Africans, thus, the knowledge and reality that Judaeo-Christian foundations of Europe actually originated from African theosophy and philosophy, has surely been a major source of social-political embarrassment for Europeans. The racist and extremist Europeans had always seen the so-called Jewish people with suspicion and contempt vis-à-vis their same contempt and ill-feelings they had towards Sub-Saharan Africans. That is to say, historically, the Europeans had no genesis of religion to claim as their own, other than what came up 'out of Africa', Christianity, which was brought to them by the so-called Jews. This fact has left the European (Aryan-Whites) with bitterness, enmity and jealousy against the so-called Jewish peoples and Africans.

Also, this fomented ill feelings among Europeans that the so-called Jewish people had deliberately deceived them so that the Jews would dominate Europe. "This is also the reason no credible reason has been given for the most atrocious massacre of blacks and Jews in human history" (Nana Darkwah, ibid. page 23). Finally, one must know that Aryan-White (European and American) tradition, Apostolic fathers of the Church, theosophical teachings and writings, as well as the Arabs, have all laboured over the past 500 years, trying to disconnect Black Africans from Ancient Egypt, in order to hide the true identity of the original authors of the Bible and the origin from whence the Bible originated, which was Ancient Egypt. In essence, what the Aryan-White race has attempted to do by 'high-jacking' Ancient Egypt: The strategy has been to kill the "Messenger" (Black Ancient Egyptians), but save and embrace the "Message" of the messenger for themselves (the Holy Bible text). It is important to know that Western curiosity and interest in Ancient Egypt, wanting it to be recognized at its genesis as an Aryan-White or Asian Civilization, thus induced Western scholarship to create the discipline science called Egyptology.

The Aryan-White race's main objective in establishing Egyptolgy is to destroy the Black African genesis of Ancient Egypt, and give the world a counterfeit analysis of this Great Civilization as being a creation of the Aryan-White race. However, the late Dr. Cheikh Anta Diop (Senegalese), who was a Physicist-Scientist, Egyptologist, Palaeo-anthropologist and World Historian, eloquently sums up the essence of the Aryan-White race's futile attempts to 'white-wash' Ancient Egypt. Diop: "Mankind trying to destroy the Black African genesis of Ancient Egypt, is like trying to drown a fish in the vast ocean!" BY THE MASTER TEACHER H.M. MAULANA.





AfroMan this is a powerful truth you are revealing. Of course, Africans wrote the Bible as that's all that were in that region. And the fact is, even the Bible acknowledges that Africans were what Israel was comprised up of.

We have the Bible defining the ethncity of the Egyptians as 'The land of HAM' which of course, is purposely translated wrong, in that it should have been KHEM/KAM (Psalms 78:51; 105:23,27; 106:21-22).

We also have the Bible verifying that HAMITES/KHEMITES were they who inhabited the Middle East, which I'm sure you already know is nothing more than NORTH EAST AFRICA also known as Al-ke-bu-lan or AFrica (1 Chr. 4:40; Gen. 17:8).

We have Abraham married the Egyptian woman Hagar and so producing the African Arabs (Gen. 16; 17). His Black/Egyptian mother Hagar married Ishmael off to an Egyptian/Khemite so producing a solid African line (Gen. 21:21).

We have Joseph the son of Israel marrying an Egyptian daughter of the High priest (Genesis 41:45). We have this Black/African woman producing 2 sons of Israel who became two tribes Ephraim and Manassah (Gen. 41:52).

After the Exodus we have proof that the 70 who went down into Africa/Egypt populated to over 400,000 through marriage with African/Egyptians. They were called a MIXED MULTITUDE who left Egypt/Africa (Lev. 24:10; 1 Chr. 2:34; etc. Ex. 12:37-38).

The Bible also calls the Egyptians Wise men. In fact, when seeking to explain the greatness of Solomon's wisdom they likened it to the Egyptians and various African/Canaanite kings (2 Kings 7:6) 'God's children who will return to him) (Isaiah 19:21). Acts 7:22 speaks of Moses obtaining his wisdom from the Egyptians.

The Black/African nation was truly semitic in that it was Semi-Khemite and Semite/Semite and all of it was basically Black/African men, women and children.

So in other words, the Bible is teaching all with 'eyes to see and ears to hear' that we are dealing with a solely Black/African people including Yeshua Hamashiach.

Also, the Caucasoids who identify themselves as Japhethites were had been scattered to the cave regions of the Caucasas mountains and are no where to be found in the establishing of the Hebrew nation (Gen. 10:2-5). They are the Greeks/Romans who were Israel's enemies.

There is also the Gnostics 'Gospel of the Egypitans' and a multitude of obvious evidence that Black/AFricans wrote the Bible and were the Hebrews of the Bible.

http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/gospelegyptians.html

http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/gospelegyptians.html

Anyway, this is a dynamite post worth passing around. Thanks for sharing.
Respect Prophetessofrage for responding. You made very very good points my LOVE!!
We know the Christian Church blindly follows ancient African ideas and when we ask appreciation gives unsatisfactory and egotistical explanations. There is no people who refuse to express love and appreciation for its predecessor who will not fall in ill spirituality. FOREIGN, ALIEN GODS are serpents crawling on the ground. If in fathomless pits we bury the highest wisdom of our African ancestors we will continue to suffer of many curse and afflictions. We must return to the center of our faith. Any man who forgets and forsakes his ancestors' way of life is an absolute curse. This is Divine Law!

AfroMan.
After trumpeting repeatedly that she only posts to sistas on sistas' boards, profitlessinrags comes here, giving the lie to her oft-repeated words.

Again.

Afroman,

You avoided the question. I did not ask if you posted the headliner post nor did I ask you why you posted it. That is plain to see. I asked you if you agreed with what you posted.

Do you?
quote:
Originally posted by Afroman:
Respect Prophetessofrage for responding. You made very very good points my LOVE!!
We know the Christian Church blindly follows ancient African ideas and when we ask appreciation gives unsatisfactory and egotistical explanations. There is no people who refuse to express love and appreciation for its predecessor who will not fall in ill spirituality. FOREIGN, ALIEN GODS are serpents crawling on the ground. If in fathomless pits we bury the highest wisdom of our African ancestors we will continue to suffer of many curse and afflictions. We must return to the center of our faith. Any man who forgets and forsakes his ancestors' way of life is an absolute curse. This is Divine Law!

AfroMan.


Seeing that it's just the two of us Blacks speaking on this thread AfroMan let me be even more frank in my agreement with you..... Big Grin

Yes, how right you are all origin goes back to the BLACK who preceded all. The Black hand of the Sumerian wrote even greater truths that have been cast to the ground. A lot of the truth is coming out as Catholism that stole black legacy is now releasing the truth of the Black origin not for black's sake but simply for their own wicked agenda but still 'Black Truth' is arising and for that we must thank our Black God/Goddess.

What say you? Wink
quote:
Originally posted by Melesi:
After trumpeting repeatedly that she only posts to sistas on sistas' boards, profitlessinrags comes here, giving the lie to her oft-repeated words.

Again.

Afroman,

You avoided the question. I did not ask if you posted the headliner post nor did I ask you why you posted it. That is plain to see. I asked you if you agreed with what you posted.

Do you?

Why are you feigning gullibility? Of course, I agree with the truth of the article, is it not obvious? Africans knew the True Christianity from a long time. Nazaire is no fool!

Moreover, my Love has all the authority and privilege to post anywhere she wants in this sound Black African community, created and managed by the honorable brother MBM. I have been reading nothing but her great views...and I am impressed!! She is the "spokeswoman" for OURstory. She will resurrect the Wisdom of our Ancestors..Bravo. Carry on my Queen!!


AfroMan.
I never said that she didn't have the right to post wherever she wants. Of course she does. I simply pointed out yet another inconsistency, another lie in her stable of them, proof that she cannot be trusted to tell the truth. Ever.

I asked the question because it was an issue earlier in the thread. You do read others' posts in the thread that you begin, don't you? So you'll see the exchange between Henry38 and me on Dec. 31st that occasioned the question.

Well, now that we have that answered, we can go forward.

I'll be back after a while with more to the actual point of the post. Right now I have an appointment to keep.
quote:
Originally posted by Afroman:
quote:
Originally posted by Melesi:
After trumpeting repeatedly that she only posts to sistas on sistas' boards, profitlessinrags comes here, giving the lie to her oft-repeated words.

Again.

Afroman,

You avoided the question. I did not ask if you posted the headliner post nor did I ask you why you posted it. That is plain to see. I asked you if you agreed with what you posted.

Do you?

Why are you feigning gullibility? Of course, I agree with the truth of the article, is it not obvious? Africans knew the True Christianity from a long time. Nazaire is no fool!

Moreover, my Love has all the authority and privilege to post anywhere she wants in this sound Black African community, created and managed by the honorable brother MBM. I have been reading nothing but her great views...and I am impressed!! She is the "spokeswoman" for OURstory. She will resurrect the Wisdom of our Ancestors..Bravo. Carry on my Queen!!


AfroMan.


Hey Afroman, totally ignore and talk around the tired, boring, plant like everybody else. Check this out.

Click on the site and see if you are able to post that dynamite picture over here.


http://www.geocities.com/wally_mo/



"The hieroglyphics label the above figures as follows:
(Ref: The Egyptian Hieroglyphic Dictionary, Vols 1&2, E.A. Budge, Dover.)

Egyptian Ret (page 435a,b) = Men: We also have 'ret na romé' or "We men above mankind." This ideology allows us to understand that there are actually only three races represented here; Black, White, and Semitic since the Egyptians considered themselves in a class of their own, while still showing that they belonged to the Black racial group.

Semite Namu (page 373b) =Travelers or wanderers: We also have 'Namu Sho' or "People who travel the sands": Nomads or Bedu.

Other Africans Nahasu (pages 344a/386b) = Strangers or barbarians: In Wolof (Senegal), a language as close to Ancient Egyptian as Coptic Egyptian, "nahas" means "good for nothing; worthless."

European Tamhu (page 855a) = Red people: Tamh = hematite; reddish iron ore; ochre or pale yellow to red.

The Black 'Land' nonsense:

Catechism: "The Egyptians called their country Kemet or Black after the color of the soil."

Egyptology contrived this idea from Herodotus, "Egypt is a land of black soil...We know that Libya is a redder earth." (Herodotus, The History, book 2:12); conveniently ignoring the fact that he also mentioned that the Egyptian people were black as well. So, to anyone, not familiar with the Ancient Egyptian language, this "Kemet = black soil" may seem like a plausible conclusion. It is not:

Kem, kame, kmi, kmem, kmom (page 787b) = to be black

Kem [khet] (ibid) = extremely black, jet-black

Kemet (ibid) = any black thing

Kemet [nu] = Black nation = Egypt. Note: the determinative [nu] means any Egyptian nation, community, or settlement; has nothing to do with earth or land (to, ta, ateb).

Kemet [Romé] = Black people. Egyptians.

Kemit (ibid) = Black books, Egyptian literature.

Kem wer [miri] = The Great Black sea (The Red sea). This sea is neither black nor red, this is in reference to which nation, Black or Red, at a particular time, controlled this body of water.

Kemi fer = Black double house; seat of government. Note: by reference to Wolof again, we know that to make a plural of per or house, the p>f or fer or houses. Thus fero=great houses (double), it is not pero as Budge writes.

In Egyptian, the adjective precedes the noun, when the noun represents anything sacred or holy (i.e., a deity or the word black itself), otherwise the adjective follows the noun:

Kem ti = Black image, sacred image : ti oubash = white image

Kem ho = Black face/title of a god : ho oubash = white face

Kem to = Black land : To deshret = Red land (also; To Set)

This rule does not apply when Black is used as a noun-adjective of nationality:

Hompt Kemet = copper of Black; Egyptian copper : Hompt Sett = copper of the Red nations; Asiatic copper

Ro in Kemet (page 416a) = speech of Black; mute ro n Kemet = word of the mouth of Black; the Egyptian language

Kemet Deshret = Black and Red; good and evil; fertile and barren, etc.; Duality

Deshretu (page 554a,b) = red ones, red devils. Used also to refer to the Namu and Tamhu; not a complimentary label.

Attitude towards the heart of Africa:

Khentu Hon Nefer (page 554a) = founders of the perfect order. Budge: "peoples and tribes of Nubia and the Egyptian Sudan." For "Hon" see page 586b.

To Khent (page 1051b/page 554b) = land of the beginning.

Eau (page 952b/page 17b) = the old country

Ancient Egyptian's Worldview:

The Egyptian's view of the world was the exact opposite of the current Western one. To the Egyptian, the top of the world was in the south (upper) towards the African interior, the bottom (lower) towards the north, hence upper and lower Egypt; upper and lower Syria."
quote:
Originally posted by Afroman:
Give thanks for this link! More proof to know the truth. Thanks for the back up my Love!!

AfroMan.






Yep Afroman Amen as the Egyptians would say it, Amen.... Wink

Here's some more dynamite;
http://www.geocities.com/wally_mo/people.html

The Ancient Egyptian Type in the Flesh

Virtually all Egyptologists and anthropologists Egyptians of the Nile Valley, especially the agree that the Ancient Egyptians belonged to the same ethnic sub grouping, usually referred to as 'Hamites,' as the Somali, Galla (Oromo), Beja, Afar (Danakil), etc. - peoples of northeast Africa. We would also include the Wolof of Senegal, and of course modern Copts, and the Nubians.
===============================================

Now the pictures on this link are the images blacks must get in their head to be cleansed from what the Bible would call 'demonic' spirit of white racism that bred their psyche' to see their own Black history as that of 'white/leprosy.'

I mean think of HAGAR THE EGYPTIAN who Abraham married (Genesis 16:3-15). Abraham himself Black/Africoid and from Ur of the Black Babylonian region (Genesis 11:26-31).

Joseph son of Israel and the Egyptian Black daughter of the High Priest of ON (Genesis 41:44-52).

Solomon married an Egyptian Black/African princess and built her a palace in Israel (1 King 3:1;411).

It is imperative that blacks be psychologically healed from all the Willie Lynch indoctrination and truth is the weapon that will set the captive free.
Afroman,


You do no one any good by your attitude. Who was it who said that to withhold the truth because some people will respond to it badly is bizarre"? He was mroe right than that, for it is morally criminal.

If the shoe fits, my brother...

To say that the Bible was written by Egyptians is to say that you know very litle about the Bible and its origin. The Bible was written over a period of some 1500 years by over 40 people on three continents, not all of whom had access to or influence from the writings of Egypt. It was written some time after their trek through Sinai, it was written in Israel, it was written in the Temple, it was written in Babylon and Persia, it was written around the shores of the Mediterranean Sea, it was written in many places, and most of it was not modeled after anything Egyptian. YOur authority has not shwon how the book of, say, Galatians is modeled after an Egyptian book, or Revelation, or Hosea. So how can the "Bible" be originally written by Egyptians?

Draggin out the old saw that all the "original" pictures of Jesus and Mary were black is fraudulent in the extreme. No picture of a black Jesus and Mary existed before about AD 500. Check out the Roman catecomb art, which predates the european are and you'll find that Jesus there is white. That does not mean that Jesus really was white, nor does the later european art prove that Jesus was black. It's too late, and any historian of integrity knows that.

Which says a lot about your source. And you agree with him.

This shows that your concern is not for the truth. You simply want people to believe your argument that makes you feel superior. I'll show those white devils a thing or two, seems to be your attitude. But it's the wrong attitude, and it leads you to believe in falsehoods.

Let it go and rejoice in your blackness without demanding that others be black like you. Be glad to be the way that God made you. You cannot be free while you are angrily demanding that others believe a lie. Only the truth will set you free. What you have posted and want to beleive in isn't true.

Note well the picture at geocities to which puppetofrage points you. See the picture of "semite"? That means that all those who have been saying that the Hebrews were originally black are wrong.

Moses was a Semite. Therefore, by Pro's own picture, Moses was not black.

However that may be--I think it amusing but not really important--the Bible comes not so much from an Egyptian point of view as a Mesopotamian one. Abram was a Sumerian--an odd sort of origin for him if the Bible was written by Egyptians.

But the post that you quoted--and agree with--is rather a confused mass of statements that have a hard time staying on one subject. It says that the Church changed Jesus from black to white. This is silly. It is true that most of the European art portrays Jesus as white, but in the 1500s and 1600s, Jesuit missionaries in China had Jesus and the apostles painted to look Chinese. In India they had them painted to look Indian. The "Church" did not turn Jesus from black to white. The message of Jesus was far more important to the Church than was any single image of him. Source: Stephen Neill, "History of Christian Missions."

The Nestorians were missionaries in China in the eleventh century, before the Jesuits, and they did the same thing. It seemed to both organizations that it was not right to portray Jesus as white to the Chinese, so they had them painted as Chinese.



The problem with your source is that he hasn't bothered to study this history of Christian missions and thus does not know these things. So the basic premise of his argument is false, based on ignorance. The Catholic Church is not the monster that you'd like to think it is. It did not do what you are following these incomplete scholars to think it did.

My guess is that the truth won't matter to you, however.

It could very well be that the first part of the Bible is influenced by the writings of Egypt. There are similarities. But This is important only if the beginning of the Bible says that it is a unique book. It does not. Your source may believe that it does, and therefore base part of his argument on that assumption, but it does not. It only says that it is about God. It never says that it is original or unique.

Since it deals with the dealings of God with people, it should not be surprising that God has revealed himself to others. There does seem to be a universal belief in God through all cultures and societies, and sometimes we get things right in our understanding of him. The various Indian tribes had a "Great Spirit," there was quite a time in Egypt when the cult of Ra was declared the only acceptable belief in the kingdom, and other cultures had more or less such beliefs, too, but all of them have believed in something or someone divine.

We are very similar, too, so our moral codes are going to be similar. God making us all and wanting us all to know him makes this circumstance perfectly natural.

OK, his and your next point, about the cross and the ankh, is irrelevant because it is wrong. Oh, the ankh is ancient, sure, and it predates the cross. So does the swastika. So do toilets and houses. Big deal. They are completely independent symbols, for they were desigend for different reasons.

The ankh is an Egyptian religious symbol, but the cross was an actualy instrument of torture and death. That's why the cross was used in early Christianity, because Jesus died on one. The ankh has nothing to do with it.

The next point that he and you make is just plain wrong. The "early apostolic fathers" did not "protect the Bible from the lay masses." IN fact, they wrote their letters and sent them to the lay masses in the churches and encouraged the people to send them to other churches and have them read there. They circulated in many volumes of letters, copied and sent to many churches, for a long time. Many of these copies are still extant and can be read. I've seen several of them in London and Cairo. Your authority has no historical sense of what he's talking about.

And how can he hope to maintain the contradiction that the truth has been kept from the "masses," and yet at the same time "well known" among "Aryan whites"? They can't both be true at the same time.
quote:
You do no one any good by your attitude.
Melesi,

Quit dwelling on irrelevancies!
Attitude.... flat-titude...

I would think you would be intelligent enough to deal with real issues instead of making Straw Man like arguments.... Frankly, I don't care what Afro-Man's quote said or even ProphetessofRage... (Haven't read all of them...) But I have certainly read what he said in response to you which makes your incessant ranting on the literally obvious as ridiculous as I think a lot of your points are:
quote:
You Christians have to deal with the fact that the early Christian Church used many African ideas.
It would seem to me if you wanted to know what it is AfroMan believed, himself... that would be the place to start. That, to me, also says that he doesn't literally think that all of what the Bible is today was the handy-craft of Africans - i.e. literally written, every line, every T and every I.

But I could be wrong about his views... but I think it's best to assess them from what HE actually said. Instead of acting like you do and trying to nail him down to believing every single thing that may or may not be literally posited in an article he referenced.
quote:
Now go write to your white people for a change..

That would also be something else he said that, if I were you, I would consider.... Big Grin
But I guess that shows my bias!... huh? Wink
quote:
Originally posted by Melesi:
If it is best to hear his views from him, then I would suggest letting him speak for himself.
sleep"If it is best to hear his views from him, then I would suggest letting him speak for himself."

I hope you picked up on my intent to mock you little baby-cakes reply.

I listed the pertinent quote that addressed your ramblings - "Do You Agree With What You Posted?" But, of course, we know you are The Great Whodini... you always have an out! Big Grin

Same ole "Circle Jerk" Melesi... thumbsup
I will make it abundantly CLEAR I do not want a discussion with you Melesi. Do you think you have something to say? Leave me alone with your propaganda messages. They are no more than embarrassment and offense to my ancestors!! Again your so-called Christian ideologies are African ideologies in disguise, which you Christians stole from us and made them a God of vengeance and fire and brimstone indorsing murder and incest characteristic of your culture. Are you suffering from mental amnesia Melesi, a kind of forgetfulness brought about by your neurotic drives for superiority and supremacy? Now we Africans have the ANCESTRAL KEYS to free ourselves from your bondage with foreign ways. WE DO NOT WANT TO PLUG TO YOUR THE EUROPEAN MATRIX ANYMORE!! Furthermore, do you think you can escape calling the Truth falsehood and over looking your predecessors? I find you ungrateful assisting your government in mentally enslave us. You will reap what you sow, in the meantime go away!!

Nmaginate give thanks for your words in this thread. I permit you to talk and to exchange views on my behalf because you are smart not SPOON FED, you are real!! The Anglo-American woman Melesi can loathe our BLACK BROTHERHOOD, inexorably her scheme to divide and rule us won't play any role here. No, for the Great Spirit of our ancestors guides us, impel us to slash evil spirituality and history. ONE AFRIKAN LOVE!!

AfroMan.

[This message was edited by Afroman on January 02, 2004 at 11:54 PM.]
Hi Afroman, now that you and Imaginate have well expelled the disease back to her psych Thorazin shot appointments of which it professed to needing to keep, let's get down to some serious discussion on the true Black/African origin of the Bible.

I am pulling this passage from your 'Gospel of Egypt' post. The Akhetaten/Moses connection is the key to understanding the African origin of the Bible. As the article points out Hebrews got their style of writing and disposition from Egypt. The Bible verifies this reality, when it states "Moses was trained in all the wisdom of the Egyptians" (Acts 7:22). Now this coupled with the Biblical profession that Moses married an Ethiopian woman whose father was the priest of Midian, Jethro by name, is the link to the Akhenaten connection (Numbers 12:1; Ex. 18:1-12). Zipporah his Ethiopian wife had 2 sons by Moses, Gershom and Eliezer by names (Ex. 2:23; 18:4). Jethro was the High Priest of Midian.

Now couple this with the 600,000 mixed multitude comprising of solely Black/African peoples. Canaanites, and all else who dwelled among the Hebrews. Remember the 'Gibeonites' were a Black/African, Hamitic/Khemetic group incorporated into the Hebrew's nation (Joshua 10; 1 Chr. 12:4; Neh. 3:7; etc.). We also had the original Egyptians that came with Abraham into the land of Canaan now called Israel (Genesis 12:15-20: 16:3; etc.).

In fact, what is to be understood is that these Nomad Hebrews travelled in caravans and picked up various African allies along the way. That's how their armies were established (Gen. 14). The 'servants' were not 'servants' let along 'slaves' in the barbaric way of the Caucasoids. Rather, one could be a 'servant' and rise to King. In other words, it was not enslavement or thought of as inferior. The word was more akin to ally, compatriot, friend as these people married Hebrews and so caused the Hebrew line to be more of the stronger Africoid stock than Semitic.

At any rate, the ideology of monotheism that came with Akhenaten adds up to the same spiritual roots that the Hebrews adhered to. Remember also, Joseph married Asenath whoses father was the High Priest of On, Poti-Phera by name (Genesis 41:45).

Okay, It is these facts that leads us straight into the findings in the article below. With the result being Bible origin African. The Hebrew spiritual origin African. The nation itself intermarrying with Africans and retaining Africoid stock, and appearance.

Basically, the below article is the Egyptian version of the origin of the Hebrew's African spirituality. What say you?
================================================
Moses

"In the latter half of the third decade of his reign, Amenhotep III proclaimed his decision to make his son Amenhotep IV his successor and gave him the status of coregent.(13) Amenhotep IV was married to the presumed heiress Nefertiti,(14) and with his father's blessing and protection he built three more temples to the Aten in Thebes adjacent to the Karnak temple of the state god Amun.(15) Probably in an attempt to win over the priests of Amun, Nefertiti (whose name is a close variant of Nefertari)(16) took a prominent role in both the art and ritual of the temples of Aten at Karnak.(17) However, the building of additional temples to the Aten in Karnak was perceived by the priests of Amun as only one more intolerable affront. (In the 19th Dynasty these temples were dismantled and used as fill for other building projects).(18)

If Nefertiti was a daughter/grand-daughter of Yuya and Tuya,(19) and not entirely of Egyptian blood, this would have only further incensed the priests of Amun. Regardless of her parentage, the enmity between Amenhotep IV and the religious establishment had become extreme and possibly by now was irreconcilable. Five years into the coregency, Amenhotep IV changed his name to Akhenaten and left Thebes to establish a new Egyptian capital city, which he called Akhetaten (meaning the resting place or horizon of the Aten). The change in name indicated that he no longer considered himself to be the son of the god Amun, but of Aten. On the monuments marking the four corners of the new city, Akhenaten referred to the hateful words spoken about him and his forefathers by the priests of Amun.(20) Obviously, he had hoped that the city of Akhetaten would be his resting place as well.

At the city of Akhetaten, the ancient religion of the Aten received a make-over. Aten temple design, ritual, and symbolism (by a falcon-headed man and a sun disc referred to as Re-Herakhty) derived originally from the traditional solar god Ra whose center of worship had been from very ancient times at Memphis and On (Heliopolis). By the end of the coregency, the falcon-man had been removed from the Aten's symbol. The Aten had in essence become a god without human or animal image.(21) The disc of the sun was now considered to be the single physical representation of the invisible and eternal god, Ra,(22) and a deity in its own right. (The sun disc was used later as a royal "lamelech" seal by the Kings of Judah).(23) The cartouche of Akhenaten's god and heavenly father, the Aten, bore the name Imram. In the Bible, Moses is referred to as the son of Amram, the Hebrew equivalent.(24)



The name of the Egyptian deity Aten transliterates into the Hebrew word Adon.(25) Adon, which is translated by English Bibles as "the Lord" (and Adonai, translated as "my Lord") is used along with Jehovah (Yhwh) in the Bible as the exclusive personal names of God. Moreover, in ancient times, the name Jehovah (Yhwh) was written, but never spoken. Whenever the written name Jehovah (Yhwh) was to be read out loud, Adon (Aten) was voiced instead.(26) The written form of Adon is infrequent, however, its limited usage is significant, especially in the first six books of the Bible (See under "LORD" in Strong's Exhaustive Concordance), where it is reserved for the following applications alone: Moses addresses God using the title Adon/Aten (Exodus 4:10,13; 5:22; 34:9; Numbers 14:17; Deuteronomy 3:23; 7:26; 10:17); Moses, himself, is addressed both by Aaron (Ex.32:22; Num.12:11) and by Joshua (Numbers 11:28) using the title Adon/Aten; and Joshua also addresses God using the title Adon/Aten (Joshua 5:14 b; 7:7). As mentioned above, there is an established relationship between the literature of the Egyptian 18th Dynasty and the Bible. Psalm 104 is an embellishment of the Hymn to the Aten which was found by archaeologists at the city of Akhetaten.(27)

The religious reforms of Akhenaten included the rejection of traditional Egyptian magic and astrology associated with the cult of Amun,(28) and the rejection of the cult of Osiris with its version of belief in eternal judgement and the afterlife as well.(29) The site chosen for the new capital of Egypt further demonstrated Akhenaten's desire for a new balance as it was located at the exact geodetic center of the country.(30) The inhospitably hot and arid plateau overlooking the Nile on which the city of Akhetaten was built was not occupied at that time, nor would it be again after the end of the 18th Dynasty.(31) The austerity of the location was no deterrent to Akhenaten, and he rapidly constructed a magnificent city there. The finished stonework of the ancient city was taken away to be used in other building projects shortly after the end of the 18th Dynasty,(32) however the site was never again reoccupied and remained largely undisturbed up until the time of its excavation about 100 years ago. Archives containing Akhenaten's political correspondence, known as the Amarna tablets were not taken away, and they have provided a great deal of insight into the reigns of both Akhenaten and his father Amenhotep III.

The Amarna tablets have generally been used to depict Akhenaten as apathetic toward the Egyptian empire, and preoccupied exclusively with religious reforms at home. Closer scrutiny of the Amarna letters, e.g., EA 256 from Mutbaal discussed in the introduction, indicates that he knew the proponents of the Habiru personally, and was either condoning their actions, or simply unwilling to suppress them. Another researcher has concluded that Akhenaten was in fact orchestrating the movement.(33) A letter from the Canaanite governor of Jerusalem, also among the Amarna tablets, expressed outrage after an Egyptian official had been murdered at Sile by Hebrews, and Akhenaten had done nothing about it (Exodus 2:11-14).(34) Early in Akhenaten's reign, a letter to Egypt's Syrian vassal Aziru reads, "... the king does not fail when he rages against all Canaan." Later in Akhenaten's reign, and presumably after the Habiru capture of Jerusalem, a letter to Aziru reads, "you know that the king does not wish to be hard with the land of Canaan."

The tomb of a formerly unknown vizier of Akhenaten was discovered in 1989.(35) The name of this vizier, Aper-el is decidedly Semitic/Hebrew. It is not surprising then, that the repeated and pitiful pleas from Akhenaten's Canaanite and Philistine vassals at Jerusalem and other cities in Palestine for help against the surging tide of Habiru elicited no assistance from Aper-el, or from Akhenaten's other minister, Aye, the son of Yuya.

Although the city of Akhetaten was never rebuilt, there is a village on the opposite side of the Nile which has retained the name Mal-lawi (or Mallevi, meaning "city of the Levites") to this present day!(36) The Levites are identified by Osman as that select group of nobles and close relatives of Akhenaten and Yuya who made up the newly formed priesthood of the Aten and served in the temples of Aten at Thebes and at the new capital city of Akhetaten.(37) (In the Sinai, the Levites were Moses' primary supporters when trouble broke out.) While Akhenaten was still in power, the majority of Hebrews/Israelites would have remained either at Zarw(38) in the Nile delta, or at Akhmin, and would have continued to worship their own god(s) in their own native tongue. This later caused Akhenaten (Moses) some consternation (Exodus 4:10).(39)

In the twelfth year of the coregency Amenhotep III died, and Akhenaten was in a lavish ceremony at the city of Akhetaten coronated as sole ruler of Egypt.(40)

Upon the death of Amenhotep III, Akhenaten had complete power to deal with the priesthood of Amun, and this power was exercised to the fullest extent. The temples of Amun were closed and the very name of Amun was expunged throughout Egypt.(41)

The names of other gods were also attacked, however to a somewhat lesser extent.(42) This act of suppression was precipitated by a number of factors, including Akhenaten's self-imposed isolation, the influence of his Asian/Semitic relatives, a national crisis brought on by a growing epidemic, and the venom of the priestly establishment of Amun. It is clear that what began as a reaction to the excesses of the reign of Amenhotep III and an attempt to reform and simplify the religion of Egypt had now, itself, become a movement characterized by extremism. This edict of Akhenaten echoes the Bible verse, "against all the gods of Egypt I will execute my judgement (Exodus 12:12)."(43)

Akhenaten's reforms may have succeeded had they not coincided with a terrible plague that was spreading throughout the entire Middle East.(44) The rapid growth of trade and exchange among nations of the Middle East made possible by the political stability of the times also facilitated the spread of disease. Amenhotep III had made 700 idols of Sekhmet, the goddess of pestilence, in order to ward off the plague, which must have started to take hold on Egypt by the end of his reign. Two statues were made for every day of the year providing a "double spell" against the spreading disease.(45)

The late author and authority on the life of Akhenaten, Cyril Aldred, suggested that the zealousness with which Akhenaten eradicated the name of Amun was a similar, however, more desperate attempt to stop the devastation of this very same plague which during his reign had become a terrible epidemic in Egypt.(46) When the plague did not relent, the thousands of unemployed priests and servants of Amun's temples had all the more reason to blame Akhenaten's reforms and his rejection of the god who had brought Egypt so much prosperity in the past. In ancient times, such plagues were invariably attributed to the anger of the gods.(47) A personal idol of Amun found at the city of Akhetaten is an indication of the reluctance that must have existed to abandoning the security of the old forms of religion.

Contrary to the picture painted by the Bible, Egyptians of this period adhered to a well-defined system of morality and justice.(48) Regular bathing, good hygiene and a varied diet was also the norm.(49) A mural found in the city of Akhetaten depicts the world's first toilet, and reflects an understanding of the need to properly dispose of human waste.(50) Plague induced hysteria undoubtedly raised the consciousness of diet and sanitation to even greater levels as reflected by the Laws of Moses in the Bible. According to the Bible, Moses told the Israelites that if they would observe all his commandments they would be free of the diseases that had inflicted them in Egypt (Deuteronomy 7:15; 28:60).

Moreover, the practice of medicine was not primitive in Egypt as was once believed, especially for ancient times. Drawing upon centuries of investigation, the Egyptian physician could skillfully diagnose many types of injuries, illnesses and diseases, and was entirely pragmatic regarding the likelihood with which a patient could be cured. Both physical and psychological treatments were prescribed to promote healing. The practice of circumcision is entirely of Egyptian and African origin,(51) and was only adopted later by the Semitic followers of Moses. An overview of the ancient Egyptian's knowledge of medicine and science is found in the references.(52)

In his third year of sole rule Akhenaten named a younger brother (or half-brother) Semenkhare as his coregent.(53) This only occurred after what appears to have been a desperate attempt to bear a royal son of his own had failed. Akhenaten is known to have had six daughters by his wife Nefertiti. As the coming of age of Semenkhare approached, Akhenaten married and had children through his three eldest daughters. These unions produced three additional daughters, and ended the life of his second eldest daughter in child birth.(54) In this respect also Akhenaten seemed to be cursed.

After his appointment as coregent, Semenkhare was dispatched to Thebes to reopen the temple of Amun,(55) but this concession to Amun and his priests proved to be fruitless. Finally, there is evidence that Akhenaten himself had become seriously ill.(56) Two years after Semenkhare's appointment, Akhenaten's reign came to an end. It is commonly presumed that Akhenaten died at this time, but this cannot be proven. On the contrary, there are strong indications that Akhenaten did not die, but chose instead to escape death from plague or assassination by abdicating and seeking exile in the Sinai.

Akhenaten's mummy is the only one of the 18th Dynasty Thutmosids (Thutmose I through Tutankhamun) which has not been found. There is no conclusive evidence(57) that anyone was buried in the tomb chamber that was being prepared for him in the hills behind the city of Akhetaten.(58) Funerary items originally made for Akhenaten's burial there were modified and used in the Valley of the Kings burials of the following two Pharaohs instead.(59) There is also evidence that some officials continued to date articles and events to the beginning of his reign even after he was clearly no longer in power.(60) Moreover, documents and tomb inscriptions dating from the 19th Dynasty describe Akhenaten as "the rebel," "the heretic," and "the fallen one of Amarna (Akhetaten)," providing further proof that his government ended with his fall from power, and not more conventionally upon his death.(61)

The description of the rod of Moses found in the Bible is another indication that Akhenaten was living in exile in the Sinai desert. Pharaohs possessed many types of scepters representing various aspects of their sovereignty. The staff topped by a brazen serpent was the scepter symbolizing pharoanic authority.(62) We are told that this scepter was later destroyed by Hezekiah because it had become a cult fetish (2 Kings 18:4).(63)

The Talmud relates that Moses had indeed been a king (of Ethiopia) for a time, but had abdicated in favor of a son sired by an elderly Queen Mother Adonith (Egyptian Aten-it) through her husband the previous king.(64) Pharaohs of the 18th Dynasty were also considered to be the rulers of Ethiopia (Kush). One, and possibly the only, military action of Akhenaten took place in Ethiopia (Kush) where he confirmed his kingship over the region.

Surviving excerpts from two Egyptian histories provide even more clues regarding the true identity of Moses. The History of Egypt (Aegyptiaca) written in the 3rd Century B.C. in Greek by the Egyptian High Priest of Heliopolis known as Manetho recorded details about Moses and the Exodus.(65) Also, the five volume History of Egypt written by Apion in the first half of the 1st Century A.D. contained a passage about Moses that was quoted by the Jewish historian Josephus.(66) Josephus (circa 70 A.D.) transmitted from Apion's work that Moses had constructed temples in Egypt which were oriented eastward, had roofs open to the sun, and made use of a modified obelisk. These were all distinctive characteristics of Akhenaten's many temples.

Excerpts from Manetho's history quoted by Josephus and the Christian historian Eusebius (chronicler to Constantine) place the Exodus specifically under Moses during the reign of Amenhotep IV (Akhenaten) following a 13 year period marked by pestilence, rebellion and the violation of Egyptian temples and their gods.(67) This is an accurate description of the traumatic 13 year period during which Akhenaten ruled Egypt from the new city of Akhetaten.(68) Josephus, who was also a Jew, took great offence to the accounts of both Manetho and Apion. Lacking any hard evidence to contradict these sources, Josephus resorted to simply denouncing the accounts as "ridiculous" and "silly." Fortunately, he quoted enough verbatim from Manetho and Apion to now prove otherwise!(69)"
Two rants and a drool in response to my short post. Not bad, I think.

The drool proceeds as if the truth had never been shown. That is, what she says would be interesting if it were not for the fact that it is irrelevant. Can Egypt say some things that are true? Sure. Can magic be done on earth? Apparently. Satan has certain powers. we are told. So why couldn't a rod that budded be something that happens more than once? These kinds of signs were not meant to prove anything except that Moses was worth listening to. They were minor therefore. The most important part is the existence of Israel and the people who believe in God who have not perished from the earth, and still testify to the God who saved and saves us.

That the Bible does. And while the earliest part of the Old Testament could have Egyptian influence (Moses lived in Egypt for a long while, so why not? It's really not surprising to find that it does. In fact, it proves the historicity of the Bible), I don't see us saying that the New Testament does. So it is is a bit disingenuous to say that the "Bible" comes from Egypt when most of it obviously does not.
Melesi just a thought, I hope you don't come swinging at me but please think about this. If the Israelites lived in Egypt for about 500 years (longer than the US has been in existence) and then immediately upon leaving wrote the major part of the Bible wouldn't common sense dictate that what they wrote and their style of writing would be influenced heavily by their 500+ African heritage? You have to appreciate that until they became a nation these people (Isrealites) were Africans.

To help illustrate the point if you repatriate African Americans to Africa today and they set about being the scholars and writing most of what the future generation would read and depend on wouldn't you agree that what they write would be of western origin? That being the case common sense should dictate that the Bible is of African origin because the Israelites who wrote it had just come out of being African citizens that had lasted 500+ years

Taking your own words into consderation
quote:
And while the earliest part of the Old Testament could have Egyptian influence (Moses lived in Egypt for a long while, so why not? It's really not surprising to find that it does. In fact, it proves the historicity of the Bible)
I really don't see the need for this argument to continue with what Afroman posted.

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Henry,

Oh, sure, it makes all the sense in the world for what they wrote right after being in Egypt to be influenced by their time in Egypt.

But I don't think that the majority of the Bible was actually written by those who left Egypt.

The Books of Moses were, it looks like, but from then on there isn't any discernable Egyptian influence except for Ecclesiastes, which looks very much like a lot of widely-known pessimism literature. It's not pessimistic, but it has the form of it. Pesimism literature was not restrictd to Egypt, however. It was known in Babylon and therefore Persia, too, so the influence onit might have been egyptian, but it might not.

As for the rest of the OT, Egyptian influence is a speculation based on some questionable conclusions, enough so that the whole idea of the Bible having its "origin" in Egypt is not a very promising one.

Swinging at you? No, Henry. I did that once and was very wrong to do so. I won't do it again.

I hope. If I do, remind me, and I'll feel pretty small once more.
I see, Melesi, you completely missed the point with over-literalism.

I guess there are little or NO Anglo-Saxon, English, European "influences" in American the writing, lifestyles, and manners of the inhabitants of the U.S.

While the Constitution may represent some sense of that "influence" it apparently has NOT influenced anything else since the age of its inception in the vain that it was influenced by what preceded it.

A little common sense and reflection on how intergenerational "influences", not to mention 500 years worth, translate would be appreciated.

I'm sure the Pslams(sp) and the Proverbs have absolutely no "influences" in style, wrote, etc. Roll Eyes I bet no one ever postulated any such thing.

And I bet nation throughout the region (of the Americas) aren't "influenced" by American policies and philosophies. World Powers actually have no "influence" whatsoever in the ideas and concepts (literature) that emerge in other countries in proximity to them, let alone those that exchange via trade with them.... Of that, Melesi, with you comments, I am now sure. Roll Eyes
quote:
Originally posted by Melesi:
Henry,

Oh, sure, it makes all the sense in the world for what they wrote right after being in Egypt to be influenced by their time in Egypt.

But I don't think that the majority of the Bible was actually written by those who left Egypt.

The Books of Moses were, it looks like, but from then on there isn't any discernable Egyptian influence except for Ecclesiastes, which looks very much like a lot of widely-known pessimism literature. It's not pessimistic, but it has the form of it. Pesimism literature was not restrictd to Egypt, however. It was known in Babylon and therefore Persia, too, so the influence onit might have been egyptian, but it might not.

As for the rest of the OT, Egyptian influence is a speculation based on some questionable conclusions, enough so that the whole idea of the Bible having its "origin" in Egypt is not a very promising one.

Melesi lets focus on the first five books of Moses and see what they signify. If you agree that the books of Moses were written by the Israelites when they were Africans, you have to remember these books are the foundation of the whole Bible. Judaism and everything else was based on the Mosaic law and nothing else. The Mosaic laws were only abandoned nearly 2000 years later when Christ abolished the Mosaic laws. So in line with this can we not conclude that Africans wrote the Bible?

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Henry,

I don't think so. Would you say that English are writing the laws and literature of America today? No, Americans are.

It doesn't take long for there to arise a pharaoh who knows not Joseph or a generation who forgets Moses. Each people isolated wnough--as teh Israelites were from Egypt--develops a divergent culture and language and consciousness. Israel did so, and in shrot order, their being human being the impulse for this. By the time we get to the end of Judges Israel is an entirely different culture from teh one that left Egypt. You can see changes occurring right through Joshua and Judges, and by I Samuel it's a different place with different people. No, Egyptians did not write the Bible. Israelites did. Egypt influenced the very early and first books of the Bible, but remember that Israel was always a separate people in Egypt. While this did not shield them from its culture and language and thought-forms, and therefore it is influential in the Books of Moses, it's not in evidence anywhere else. By the historical books, they are a separate and different people.
Melesi you did not address my post, I am not talking about the entire old testament, please pay attention. Notice I am not denying that it was the Israelites that that wrote the five books of Moses. The point I am making is this, the foundation of the Bible are those five books of Moses. You you know like the foundation of a house, without the foundation there is no house, likewise without those five books there would be no Judaism let alone Christianity because those five books are the foundation on which everything is laid.

The interesting thing is when Moses wrote those five books the Israelites had not reached the promised land so as to be identified as a nation in its own right. They were walking about in circles through the desert and those Israelites because of just having come out of Egypt were still Egyptians and therefore this made them a bunch of Africans walking about in the desert. Hence the people who wrote what is the foundation of the Bible were a bunch of slaves from Africa or Africans

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I can see I have left you speechless with shock. Well you better run for the medicine cabinet because things get even better. You know those Israelites you think were not Africans, when they got to the Promised land you know they did not stay there for long, after a short stay far shorter than they were slaves in Egypt God had them kicked back right into Africa, in fact the Israelites have always lived in Africa and been African citizens far longer than they were a nation of Israelites.

Incase you are wondering where I got this information its all there in the Bible. Now you see why I said you might run for the medicine cabinet. This is just a small post to warn you about what I am about to unleash on you with regard to the Israelites as Africans and how the Bible is more African than it having any association with anyone else. So get ready for an information bombshell. Big Grin

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quote:
Originally posted by Melesi:

By the time we get to the end of Judges Israel is an entirely different culture from teh one that left Egypt. You can see changes occurring right through Joshua and Judges, and by I Samuel it's a different place with different people.
quote:
Originally posted by henry38:

You know those Israelites you think were not Africans, when they got to the Promised land you know they did not stay there for long, after a short stay far shorter than they were slaves in Egypt God had them kicked back right into Africa, in fact the Israelites have always lived in Africa and been African citizens far longer than they were a nation of Israelites.
Okay! I'd like to see you BOTH cite scripture that adequately illustrates your positions.

As for you MELESI:
    No, Egyptians did not write the Bible. Israelites did.
Straw Man! No poster here has said that the Bible is the handycraft of the Egyptians - i.e. written by the Egyptians themselves in the style and form its in (now or then). But, I guess by that type of position yours would categorically state that a Bibliography is obsolete and even though an author cites repeatedly if not extensively from known sources (credited or not) that the author indeed wrote EVERY WORD of the book... and every concept is original and unique to the author as if to completely ignore the citations and the awlfully familiar/similar conceptual ideas from literature that the author must have been privy or exposed to whether by firsthand exposure (in person) or by study of literature either direct from the source or by those who wrote about the source. I guess Plagarism and/or selective paraphrasing constitutes authentic writing. A simple test for all this would be to analyze whether or not there were philosophical antecedents to "Biblical" or Israelite beliefs in existence prior to their "sojoun" in Egypt. Without concrete evidence of an independent genesis that precedes Egypt it is impossible and problematic to dismiss Egyptian influence as insignificant.

That would be like saying that the American concept of democracy is insignificant not only to the adoption of democracy by contemporaries but also to others who will seek democracy and, hence, a model for it.

Further, INFLUENCE when it comes to a moral/ethical code, etc. does not stop with a generation... that is unless (revisiting something you obviously wanted to avoid) you feel like the U.S. Constitution has lost it's INFLUENCE, both outside of the generation of its inception and the combination of European writings THAT WRITERS TODAY STILL CITE as the philosophical genesis, not to mention the heavy emphasis and reliance on the "founders" - i.e. those greatly influenced by contact and/or knowledge of an "incubator" culture/civilization - that is soooooooo prevalent yet and still today.

^^^^^ That's ^^^^^ all about"being human being" and how one culture evolves with a firm foundation on another or others.
>>> Like Europe is to America <<>> So is Egypt to the Israelites <<<

There's a difference between the idea of Israelites being African and the misnomer of the Bible being written by Egyptians. The argument is rather AFRICANS are the authors and/or a significant contingent if not one in the same as the Israelites. It goes without saying that the Egyptians were not the only Africans alive then.... So to continue with your baseless reasoning (baseless because the only thing you can possibly be disputing is the contents of an *article* and NOT the actual *arguments* of posters here) is absurd.

You have to answer how was if Moses was ethnically(racially) different from the Egyptians - aka not [Black] African (or even the close racial relative of whatever ethnic group you want to postulate that was in power) - how he was taken in as the "pharoah's son" and "raised to be a prince" there.

[Note: That if the story of Israelite slavery is true and likewise that of Moses' adoption and heirship to the Egyptian throne... that this further cements him as being African because of how the institution of "slavery" in Africa functioned to where "slaves" or POW's could be assimilated within a generation or so - the traditional kind of "slavery" authentic/unique to Black Africans.]
quote:
Egypt influenced the very early and first books of the Bible... therefore [Egypt] is influential in the Books of Moses, it's not in evidence anywhere else.
Again, the Psalms and the Proverbs are NOT "the Books of Moses"...
  • "Most striking of all of the [Egyptian]literature [a la moral insight], perhaps, is the "Wisdom" type; that is, the advice of the sage to his people, very similar in character to the Book of Proverbs in the Old Testament. There are a number of these extant, but the most notable of them all is the Wisdom of Ptah Hotep..."
[ Here's another example... I'll let you quibble on your own over the Chronology Debate, just look at the juxtaposition of the "Proverbs".

Beyond that, I guess Americans (just like the Israelites) who write something are in no ways influenced by the great moral/ethical, socio-political concepts and philosophies of anything or anyone that's not [isolated] native to the American experience. Hmmmm.... There's a bunch of social science disciplines that would beg to differ with your assertion.

It's like saying a parent has influence on only their "child's" formative years. It's actually contrary to the Biblical idea of "Train up a child...". I guess you're telling us that the moral upbringing one's parents may and may not raise you in is of little or no consequence, a neglible if at all present factor in the moral/ethical outlook one takes as an adult.

[This message was edited by Nmaginate on January 07, 2004 at 08:09 AM.]
Henry,

Hold on, bro--let's not conclude too rapidly about whether I am "speechless" or not. I wasn't around the computer to deal with this issue because of outside circumstances. A young man that I know--whom I helped shepherd through high school--got into Texas A&M last fall and stopped by to visit on his Christmas break. We got together with some friends and celebrated. You know how seldom someone from the inner city gets to go to a prestigious engineering school? He's a good example and I'd like other kids to be inspired by him. So we "showed him off" just a little. I hope you don't mind if I thought that it took precedence over anything that I might have said to you at the time.

As to the subject of your post:

OK, but I thought that I did addresss the point of your post. The question of this thread is about Egypt writing the "Bible." As I understand it, your post on the 6th said that since the first five books of the Bible were written by those who came out of Egypt, and since they are foundational to the rest of the Bible, could we not say "that Africans wrote the Bible?"

Have I understood you so far?

This can be put into a pair of syllogisms I think:

Israel was in Egypt for four hundred years.
Israel was heavily influenced by Egyptian culture.
_______________________________________________
Therefore, Israel was essentially Egyptian when they left Egypt.

This is fair enough, I think. They certainly had forgotten anything they might have known about themselves and Abraham's line. When Moses spoke with God the first time he asked God what his name was since neither he nor his Hebrew people knew.

Now, your second line of thinking is:

The Books of Moses were written by [cultural] Egyptians.
The Books of Moses are foundational to the rest of the Bible.
________________________________________________
Therefore, the Bible was written by Africans.

I'm not sure that this is valid. While we can say that the Books of Moses were written by people who understood the world from an Egyptian point of view, we cannot say that they were Africans. Abraham was Sumerian, after all, and his line was preserved as primarily (though not completely) Mesopotamian--Isaac and Jacob kept the bloodline the same, for example--and during the 400 hundred years of "captivity" they spent most of the time in a kind of ghetto. They were marked and stigmatized and treated as slaves and kept separate.

So they were not much Africanism by genetics in them (that's what makes the Lemba people worthy of note, by the way). They were by culture, but that doesn't make them African.

Now, my previous post to you I think was on your point--at least as I understood it which of course is a question in itself--and I still think that we cannot say that the Bible was written by Africans. It was written by Hebrews, even the Books of Moses but certainly the rest of it. The Books of Moses were written by those who were cultural Egyptians, and therefore we have a kind of argument for saying that they were written by Africans (though it is just as true to say that they were not. It depends on what one means), but if the question is "Did Africans write the Bible/" then the answer has to be "no," for the vast majority of even the Hebrew Bible was not and shows no evidence of being so.

That which is the foundation is not the rest of the building. If I build the foundation to your house and you build the rest, I cannot say that "I" built your house, however important the foundation is to the house.\

Now, you say that they went "back" to Africa? When? Once they were in Judea they stayed there until Assyria and Babylon--not Africa--conquered them.

Let's see (just thinking to myself, here)--after the Books of Moses, all concerning the time of the Wandering, comes the hisories: Joshua and Judges, about time in Canaan; Ruth, a great little story about faithfulness and God's provision in Canaan; 1 & 2 Samuel, about the Conquest; 1 & 2 Kings and 1 & 2 Chronicles, about the time of the Monarchy, all of which happened in Canaan; Ezra and Nehemiah, about the Return from Babylon; Esther, about time in Persia; then the Wisdom Literature (Job, Psalms, Proverbs, Ecclesiastes, Song), then the prophets, who warned about Babyon. None of this is about Israel's "return" to Egypt. Ok, I'm l istening..
quote:
Originally posted by Melesi:

This can be put into a pair of syllogisms I think:

Israel was in Egypt for four hundred years.
Israel was heavily influenced by Egyptian culture.
_______________________________________________
Therefore, Israel was essentially Egyptian when they left Egypt.

This is fair enough, I think. They certainly had forgotten anything they might have known about themselves and Abraham's line. When Moses spoke with God the first time he asked God what his name was since neither he nor his Hebrew people knew.

Now, your second line of thinking is:

The Books of Moses were written by [cultural] Egyptians.
The Books of Moses are foundational to the rest of the Bible.
________________________________________________
Therefore, the Bible was written by Africans.

I'm not sure that this is valid.
You have to answer how was it that Moses was ethnically(racially) different from the Egyptians - aka not [Black] African (or even the close racial relative of whatever ethnic group you want to postulate that was in power) - how he was taken in as the "pharoah's son" and "raised to be a prince" there.
Melesi you see how you make life difficult just for us to speak truth to each other. My brother we are Christians there is no point scoring here we just want to know the truth.

A small point of correction. The Israelites were in Egypt for more then 500 years. You know they were in slavery for 400 years but remember they were living there for many many years as free men before enslaved by a Pharaoh who did not know Joseph. This means this Pharaoh may has been a great great grandson of the original Pharaoh. If you add the ages of the original pharaoh who knew Joseph, obviously his son would have known Joseph and then maybe one grandson, all the years of these men plus the years the Israelites were slaves and you have well over 500 years.

Before I continue can you clear this up for me? Are whites in America Americans or Europeans? Also Are blacks in America, Americans or Africans? If you say both groups of people are Americans how come they are Americans and the Isaelites were not Egyptians? The Israelites were in Egypt far longer than Africans or Europeans have lived in America.

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[This message was edited by henry38 on January 07, 2004 at 01:32 PM.]
quote:
Originally posted by Melesi:
The Books of Moses were written by [cultural] Egyptians.
The Books of Moses are foundational to the rest of the Bible.
________________________________________________
Therefore, the Bible was written by Africans.
Another point of correction. I did not say the entire Bible was written by Africans, I am focusing on the five books that make up the foundation.

This is a very important analysis and in other not to allow confusion to set in I am taking it step by step so please if you can just indulge me please lets focus on the issues one at a time, don't worry about the speed of it we'll get there in the end.

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Henry,

OK. I included the rest of the Bible because you said that it seemed to you that if the Pentateuch was written by Africans, then it could be said that the rest of the Bible was as well, in a way.

More about that later, though, I suppose.

All right, the Pentateuch was Egyptian or not?

Well, while we call the Pentateuch the Books of Moses, that name does not necessarily mean that Moses wrote those books. With certain exceptions, Moses is always "he," never "I" in these books. Where Moses may indeed have written some of it himself is of course, the Decalogue (Ex. 20), the curse against Amalek (in Ex. 17), the book of the Sinai covenant (in Ex. 24), and his final exposition of the Law (in Dt. 31). Still, Moses is third-person. Even the log-book of Num. 33 is third-person.

this doesn't mean that the Pentateuch is written later than Moses, but it does indicate that it certainly was edited later than Moses.

Now, Moses lived in Egypt for a long time, 40 years during the most formative time in his life. Terefore it seems right that he would be very Egyptian in his way of thinking. Very well. Yet what he wrote in the Pentateuch seems to be as closely related to Sumerian and Babylonian texts as it is to Egyptian. While THe Book of Coming Forth by Day has some echoes in Exodus, so does the Code of Hamurabbi, and its direct ancestor, the Eshunna Code, which contains regulations for the division of oxen after one ox has killed the other (Ex. 21:35). There are a few other cuneiform tablets from Mesopotamia that have very close parallels to Biblcal directives, which bring the question of influences on the Biblcal writers.

The Code of Hammurabbi--something like 300 paragraphs of legal strictures on a black stone slab about seven feet tall--is over 300 years older than the Mosaic Law, so this kind of law was well known in the region. There are some differences in dealing with similar situations in the two codes, so the Mosaic Law is not merely borrowed from surrounding laws but is a law on its own (The Mosaic Law, for example, does not allow a woman to divorce her husband, while the Hammurabbi Code does), as seen by the fact that women actually had a better and more important place in the Mosaic Law than in other instances of the laws of the ancient near east. The Hammurabbi Code, says that a woman accused by her husband of adultery--but without proof--should drown herself in the Euphrates anyway. Slaves are treated better under the Mosaic Law, too. But "eye for eye, wound for wound, stripe for stripe" is a law in both Hebrew and Babylonian jurisprudence.

So from internal evidence--a very important kind--we do have to say that the Books of Moses are just as much Babylonian as they are Egyptian. Therefore I don't think that we can say with certainty that they were written by Africans.
quote:
Originally posted by Melesi:
Henry,
The Code of Hammurabbi--something like 300 paragraphs of legal strictures on a black stone slab about seven feet tall--is over 300 years older than the Mosaic Law, so this kind of law was well known in the region. There are some differences in dealing with similar situations in the two codes, so the Mosaic Law is not merely borrowed from surrounding laws but is a law on its own (The Mosaic Law, for example, does not allow a woman to divorce her husband, while the Hammurabbi Code does), as seen by the fact that women actually had a better and more important place in the Mosaic Law than in other instances of the laws of the ancient near east. The Hammurabbi Code, says that a woman accused by her husband of adultery--but without proof--should drown herself in the Euphrates anyway. Slaves are treated better under the Mosaic Law, too. But "eye for eye, wound for wound, stripe for stripe" is a law in both Hebrew and Babylonian jurisprudence.

So from internal evidence--a very important kind--we do have to say that the Books of Moses are just as much Babylonian as they are Egyptian. Therefore I don't think that we can say with certainty that they were written by Africans.
First of all we are not talking about influence. We are talking about who the Israelites were. I am telling you that from the source of your beliefs it says they were Africans. They were not cultural Africans as you want to put it but plain and simple Africans. Its easy for you to see Whites as canadians, Australians and even Americans even though these people have been Nations less than how long the Israelites were Africans. For some strange reason when it comes to the Israelites you would duck and dive, twist and turn and do every loop and turn than admit what is RIGHT THERE IN THE BIBLE. You would rather call them "cultural Egyptians." What is that supposed to mean? Are you a cultural American?

What are you? Do do hate your blackness so much you would rather loose your right arm than admit what is the truth from the book you claim to follow? I am very sure if someone claimed the Israelites were white you would not bat an eyelid and accept it without question but the mere mention that the israelites were actually Africans who after leaving Egypt emerged as a NEW Nation is too much for you to bear. Look at your antics and the extent you are going in order not to admit that Israel as a Nation started in Africa? When the Israelites arrived in Egypt they were not a Nation of People, they first started emerging as a Nation only when they were in Egypt.

To muddy up and sow confusion even more you are now talking about Hammurabbi. This discussion is about who wrote the foundation books of the Bible, what has Hammurabbi got to do with it? If you were a slave in America and upon your emancipation wrote a brilliant book, are people going to say even though you wrote it as a black man the book you have written is as much white as it is black? Granted they might do so if they want to steal some of the limelight but deep down everyone knows a black man [you] wrote the piece. Please leave out Hammurrabbi because the Israelites were slaves far longer than Hammurrabbi and his teachings. What did you think they were doing as slaves sitting somewhere reading the Hammurrabbi code so as to educate themselves?

The African Israelites wrote those five books that made up the foundation of Judaism and later on Christianity, when they wrote those books they mentioned Egypt many times and also the people around them in the Desert, as for Hammurrabbi and his teachings they NEVER EVER mentioned it once.
The above Melesi is the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the TRUTH

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Melesi Can you try and understand the points I am raising QUICKLY and not make a meal of it. This is just the beginning, I am itching to get to show you how the Israelites after a short stay in the Promised land got kicked right back into Africa and where the majority have lived EVER SINCE. This is all in the Bible so don't worry about where I going to get my information from.

The interesting is thing by the time we finish you would find as a western black man you are more a lost Israelite than anything you ever imagined yourself to be, trust me on this one.

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