Skip to main content

37 replies

Oprah Winfrey Show 5 October 2002

SouljahSouljahC4
Did anyone see the Oprah Winfrey show yesterday? I rarely watch her, but this topic caught my eye. She had CNN correspondents from all over the world interview people in the areas where they corresponded from about how they feel about Americans. Folks I tell you it was an ugly picture. Many people from several continents shared an anti-american sentiment. Not because of the people, but because of policies affecting those countries.
I have lived in Italy, England and Saudi Arabia and visited Germany. My eyes and ears were really opened while I was in England on how much this anti-america sentiment was growing back as far as 1999.
I think now that the Republicans have swept the Senate races, the impression is going to cause our image even more serious trouble with the world. If you have been abroad or are an avid fan of CSPAN please respond to this post. Thanks.

Souljah

P.S. Another excellent point that was raised during the show was how most Americans have no idea on what's going on in the rest of the world. I agree with this 100%
"It's just like when you've got some coffee that's too black, which means it's too strong. What do you do? You integrate it with cream, you make it weak. But if you pour too much cream in it, you won't even know you ever had coffee. It used to be hot, it becomes cool. It used to be strong, it becomes weak. It used to wake you up, now it puts you to sleep." "Message to the Grass Roots," speech, Nov. 1963, Detroit (published in Malcolm X Speaks, ch. 1, 1965).
Original Post

Replies sorted oldest to newest

L LeaA2
Souljah (is that *Sister* wink)

I didn't catch the program, but I frequently read newspapers from Europe. Maybe the crowd you hang with don't? Anyway, a lot of European attitudes can be explained here:
Power & Weakness, and here Ideological war just for starters.

The first article makes a good point: several European nations are in fact weak, militarily (France, Italy, Spain, take your pick of any other), and in some ways culturally (e.g., France), and they see everything through that prism. They are irrelevant, and it grates given their past. Many of them are into socialism, and they expect it to work for some reason, but it doesn't so they try to make it into a virtue and our capitalism into a vice. If you want more articles, let me know.

Incidentally, did the show mention what interesting or useful ideas or inventions are coming out of Europe right now that we should be paying attention to?
L LeaA2
Oh, as for the CNN correspondants...well, I wouldn't care too much what they think, the shill factor and everything.

What about the normal people you dealt with? I ask, because after Sept 11 I went to brunch with a couple other ladies, and the French girl with us tried to advance the "uninformed" line as well, which led to a discussion in which the other American lady (we were the only 2 Americans at the table, a Chinese lady was with us, too) pointed out the crappiness of the British media in reporting local news, et cetera. I suspect a lot of the complaint about "uninformed" is that we might not know the day to day news or issues in these places, nor do we care, but you'll observe the foreign media *always* reports on what we're doing. I didn't notice, however, that foreigners were any better at getting Americans than we are at them, or that they can truthfully say they are informed, either. They may know the macro-level stuff about us, but when it comes to detail...

I would like to know more about the everday people, as opposed to what talking heads think.
ocatchingsocatchingsA1
I give very few of those shows any type of credit for accurate reporting and Oprah is definetly on the bottom of the list with her one-sided shows.
Yes American anti-sentiment is high and no matter what we do it's a lost cause. Yes foreign reports and newspapers ride all the bad, and you could not find anything positive about America if you tried. I've lived in Germany, S.Korea and visited quite a few places and it would kill some of these bums to write a positive word about the US. Currently in Korea every problem the Koreans have is the fault of the US; The country has nearly 18 million cars and trucks on the road, and American and allied forces have maybe 50 thousand, read the paper and the pollution problem is our fault. These asholes are still crying about the olympics. The speed skating judge was not American but since the skater was its still our fault; ask 1 buckethead what country the official that made the call was from and they don't know. I always ask about the '88 or 72 olympics and I get a long boring speech why that is different.

I would love to feel sorry for these assholes but I've reached a point to hell with them. As far as I'm concerned we should take care of our own and let those that want to cry fend for themselves mad
L LeaA2
quote:
...Currently in Korea every problem the Koreans have is the fault of the US


I think you've hit it on the head, Ocatchings. One thing I've noticed about not just the Koreans but a lot of others around the globe, is that if they can avoid responsibility for their problems by blaming us, they will. Perhaps the word immature applies.
A ArabianQueenA2
It's true - anti-americanism IS widespread. I'm a Saudi Arabian who has lived in London and now in the UAE.

There's a book I suggest you read, it's very interesting: Why do people hate America? By Ziauddin Sardar and Merryl Wyn Davies

Here's a review:

"With its influence and military might, the U.S. is now undoubtedly the world's only superpower. In the process of exporting its value systems, it is slowly defining global attitudes to what it means to be civilized, rational, developed and democratic. The country is impervious to outside influence, stereotyping the rest of the world with its deeply ingrained cultural perceptions. Is it any wonder then that America is so hated around the world?

In Why Do People Hate America? Ziauddin Sardar and Merryl Wyn Davies categorically list the reasons behind the hate from the massacre of 300 Lakota Indians in Wounded Knee way back in 1890 to the more recent controversy surrounding the Kyoto Protocol and the war in Afghanistan. The global impact of America's foreign policy and its corporate and cultural power, and its unprecedented dominance in the context of America's own perception of itself is also explored in depth.

This is a book worth picking up for people who have always been critical of America and its policies. It puts America in the spotight with some rather startling revelations about its "sense of justice and human rights" that are rather controversial. In the chapter, American Hamburgers and Other Viruses, it quotes reliable sources stating that though the U.S. demonise countries that seek nuclear weapons, it has the world's largest stockpiles of nuclear weapons and is the only country in the world ever to have used atomic weapons (in Hiroshima and Nagasaki) in war. The accusations thrown at the U.S. for being a country that bullies others and of practicing double standards abound in the book and should please opponents of U.S. policies no end."

------------------
MBMMBMA1
I can see why we are not loved around the world. It's interesting though. There seems to be a clear difference between how other countries and peoples embrace us culturally versus politically. Culturally, pretty much the world over, people like, admire, and aspire to the Western lifestyle. Remember how in Russia there was an entire black market on Levi's. Coke, Hilfiger, Nike and other "American" brands are almost universally seen as "cool" abroad. In addition, African American youth define cultural trends not just here, but all over the world as well.

On the other hand, historically, we've not been shy about pursuing our national interests - most of the time in a fairly unilateral manner. We are certainly a country of paradoxes. We talk democracy and freedom and openess, yet often other countries experience us differently. I'm not sure what the solutions are to this other than using institutions like the UN a bit more strategically. We might not need UN support to do something. It just might be smarter to enlist allies politically etc.

Onward and Upward!
K KhemSaqaC4
Greetings from the bottum stirrer' This view is very real from everyday people in those lands who still have pride in their ability to be souvereign and self-sufficient and not a begger. Its not out right hate or jealousy of American privilige nor is it a dislike of freedom and education. It is basic, everyone cant fit into americas boarders nor does everyone want to, but in the same breath these people dont want to be limited to American Ideology or policy(policing). Because democracy and capitalism travel globally hand in hand doesnt mean the second coming is upon us, but it does mean lots of opportunity for American big business and foreign officials who dont mind the scraps from the corporate american table. This new capitalist democratic trend doesnt come with manuals of operation or long term national goals for some foriegn victims of big business. Lets be real BLACK people yeah America is our only "true" homeland but our banner is not red white and blue, it is however star spangled and striped the colors are just RED BLACK AND GREEN.
If we ADOAWILAE arent safe and careful about our uncle/aunt tom/thomisina affiliations the world will be anti-us as well and even our local western hemisphere brethren will even be drawn in against us.
If the big(white)house is on fire this time U really gonna rush to put it out??!!! especially when our burn down shack like projects arent ours and come and go like the bull market!!.
Wake UP I beg U all and really see beneathe the make up and staged props of communist chinese made AMERICAN FLAGS(remember the axis of evil?) yeah our most symbolic thing made in our exact oppisite nation?, Americans dont make Iraqi flags!!, Silly U all who are blinded to the light of republican reason and destruction so "Lotto'ed the lives of Amerikkkans, a dollar worth of dream is always enuff" demand more, THIS WORLD BELONGS TO THE LOT OF US NOT JUST THE USA!!!!!
Peace Love Light and protection in the movement
Khem Saqa

P.s. I got mega information from both sides, supporting any healthy educated debate leading to positive United organzed action.
L LeaA2
I mentioned immaturity, I would like to expand on that a little more.

I often read and hear of foreigners whining about

~American movies/T.V. shows
~American food
~American products

in addition to of course, American government. What I never understood is why we are meant to take the first 3 seriously. The French for example, whine about McDonald's and Starbucks. You would think that they were unable to grasp such concepts as "competition," and "giving the people what they want." It perplexes me that it doesn't occur to them to *not* eat at McDonald's (which is successful there, last I heard), and instead make their own chains to compete with ours. If they have such a problem with McDonald's, they would either not eat there, or make their own. The same with the movies.

But they whine. They (and others) like to try and comfort themselves by saying that we don't like to try different things, or what have you, and that's why they can't or won't compete with us. This is perplexing, because Pokemon is a Japanese toy. Crouching Tiger was an example of Hong Kong cinema. It's not unusual to find Americans with kanji script tatooed on their bodies or written on T-shirts. Nor is it rare to find women wearing cheongsams and hair sticks. Mehndi was a craze from India. Shakira is Columbian, and Italian author Umberto Eco sells well here, we even made a movie out of one of his books. Open up any of the Yellow Pages and you find restaurants serving cuisine from any part of the world. Is Armenian food any good? Any one know? Is it as good as Thai or Ethiopian? But we're uninterested in other countries they say. Most peculiar...

On the subject of being "unilateral," I am wondering the same thing a British MP wondered: if something is the right thing to do when a *group* is doing it, why is that very action wrong when only one is doing it? Perhaps "multilateral" is code for "allies" pursuing *their* interests but not wanting to look crass about it?
I IndependentManB5
Good topic!! Yes, Americans are looked at negatively throughout the globe, even in Canada!!! One exception from my experiences: Japan, but that was in '91. Some of it IS deserved, a lot is not.

As far as those socialist Europeans, they can rot in their socialist hell!!! They're jealous a lot of them. Especially the Brits!!!

But I do totally agree that many Americans know nothing about the world. But why would you expect them to because many do not know about there own country!!!! When I was in Europe, I was told in several different countries, "you know alot about America for an American!!!" Sad, but true.

But I know this thrills the left!!! Like CNN. They love hearing about anti-American sentiment as well as they love the UN!!!

They all hate us, but they all want what we have!!!!

I can tell you this, ArabianQueen, the feeling is mutual with Saudis and Muslims in general with a lot of Americans here!!! A feeling that really did not exist prior to 9/11. Man, that was someway to try to get us on your side, huh??? My feeling towards Muslims was somewhat positive, but now I do not trust them as far as I can see in a dark forest at night without my glasses. Human Nature I guess, when I see so many people who would do me harm for things I did not do to them, I will protect myself. And by that I mean, when I see Muslims, particulalry from the Mid East, my guard will go up. That will go for black Muslims too, I do not have much trust in them either.
NSpiritNSpiritA1
and other cultures. Apparently we have the luxury of considering other people to be irrelevant? America invites some of this criticism by having a "disposable" attitude toward other entities. If there is no cool food/music/fashion to CONSUME, americans consider a culture IRRELEVANT.

that's not cute at all.

"I coulda freed thousands more if only they had known they were slaves..."

Harriet Tubman
L LeaA2
Hello Negrospiritual,

Can you expand further? I'm serious, foreigners complain that we don't pay attention to them; I would like to know what we should be paying attention to. Too often, the situation reminds me of a little kid screaming "Look at me! Look at me! Waaaaaaatch me!" and then when give in, they do something lame. We were debating the other day about immigration from Mexico, do the Austrians or or Ghanians have an opinion on what do do about illegal immigration? That's just an example, but probably Sweden's opinion would be more relevant since they do get immigrants from Mexico. If we are wrong to ignore them, give an example of some relevant things they are thinking right now.

What ideas should we be paying attention to? From? Regarding?

On the subject of consumption, I would like to know if you think this doesn't happen the other way around? There are plenty of places where you can find people wearing American fashions and listening to American music, and watching American media, but you see little evidence that anything more than that has penetrated. My little list was to show that if someone comes up with something we like, we will embrace it, even ideas. Witness the Big 3 adopting Japanese production methods during the 80's. It's obvious we will "look," so I don't get the complaints about us not doing so.

Others complain we don't pay attention to their problems, but it's typically of the sort I heard once on a talk show on which a model from the Bahamas was complaining that a hurricane was about to hit the Bahamas, and we weren't talking about it. Now I'm wondering, "Why would we? The Bahamas is an island in the ocean, it will be hit by a hurricane. This is an inevitable consequence of being an island nation in the ocean." Mind you, my father is from there, I have relatives who would be affected there. I have reason to care, but what is someone in Boise without ties supposed to want to do about it? If the country is devastasted, we'll do what we usually do and send aid, but were we supposed to be giving 24 hour "Storm Team" coverage? That's a rhetorical question, but the issue is typical of what I normally hear and read about.
EbonyRoseEbonyRoseA1
I believe a lot of the anti-American sentiment around the globe has a lot to do with history, past and present (and future) policy (political and otherwise) and the fact that the U.S. tends to be both arrogant and rude when it comes to interaction with anyone we're not sleeping with .. or might have a reason to sleep with ... or think we might one day have a reason to sleep with (although we saw by 9/11 that forethought is not one of our strongest suits) at the particular time and place!

We have done a lot of wrong to a lot of people for a long time. The "forgive and forget" agenda, (which they --the gov't. -- is hoping to use now for their own benefit in the debate/discussion regarding reparations) is what they hope to evoke after they commit some sort of chaos and confusion, if not worse and then pack up and leave!!

The Afghanistan thing is a prime example. It's happening now. After we have finished bombing their country to smitherines (which, let's not forget, we have done once before!) how long do you think we're really going to stay there and clean it all back up, and make sure that everything is up and running smoothly for them? The answer is maybe a little longer than we stayed last time! And not a minute more!

We dropped an atomic bomb on Japan. Do they hate us? Maybe a little. But not enough to not get stinkin', dirty rich off of us, by sending their exports out for us to buy! Forgive and forget? Could you? Would you?

You're right that we are far too busy in our day to be concerned with whether or not we make TV shows that cater to the likes/dislikes of some foreign citizen somewhere who might be looking!! But, our foreign policy is no joke! Just ask those who for years have been at the brunt of it! big grin big grin
L LeaA2
O'catchings,

That's a good point. After 9/11, a lot of Muslims from the Middle East claimed that we were indifferent to them (Muslims), but I never saw that anyone over there 1) were the ones clamoring for us to help the Muslims in Kosovo (mind you there was nothing in it for us), 2) acknowledged that we were the ones who did help them, 3) express gratitude that we were the ones who helped the Kuwaitis.

But we're indifferent. We're "out to get them." Uh-huh. As for the Russians--well, if 9/11 happened over there, I have strong doubts that Afghanistan would have been handled quite so gently, given how they handled the terrorists in Moscow, and I think that's key. Same deal with the Chinese.
A ArabianQueenA2
You're right Lea, I SHOULD be grateful.

ThanQ America for:

Estimated 100,000 Palestinian civilian
deaths.

Estimated 4000-5000 Afghani civilian deaths. (2001-2002)

Estimated 200,000 Iraqi civilian deaths, and later 1,000,000 - 2,000,000 civilian deaths due to combined effects of depleted uranium poisoning, polluted water and sanctions. (1991)

Estimated 67,000 Columbian civilian deaths. (1960's-present)

Estimated 3000 Yugoslavian civilian deaths (1999) and 250,000 (1992-1995)

Estimated over 200,000 Guatemalan civilian deaths (1953-present)

Estimated 75,000 El Salvadoran civilian deaths. (1980-present)

Estimated over 200,000 of the people of East Timor. (1975-1999)

Estimated 500-1000 Somalian civilian deaths. (1993)

Estimated over 1,000,000 Afghani civlian deaths. (1979-1992)

Estimated over 13,000 Nicaraguan civilian deaths. (1981-1990)

Estimated 15,000 Panama people homeless, thousands more killed. (1989)

Estimated over 100 Libyan civlian deaths, including Qadhafi's 2 yr old daughter. (1981-89)

Estimated 290 Iranian airline passengers. (1988)

Estimated several hundred civilian deaths in Grenada. (1979-84)

Estimated over 10,000 Greek civilian deaths. (1964-74)

Estimated over 5000 civilian deaths in Chile, 1000 missing presumed dead. (1964-73)

Estimated 2,500,000 - 3,500,000 Viatnamese civilian deaths. (1945-74)

Estimated 1,000,000-2,000,000 Cambodian civlian deaths. (1955-73)

Estimated 500,000 Laotian civilian deaths. (1957-73)

Estimated 500,000 - 1,000,000 Indonesian civlian deaths. (1965)

Estimated 150,000 instant deaths in Hiroshima and Nagasaki, hundreds of thousands more be the poisining radiation. (1945)

Estimated 672,000 Japanese people, 180,000+ German and thousands of French civlians. (1942-45)

Estimated 200,000 Phillipino civlian deaths. (1899-1902)

Estimated 90,000,000 Native people of America and Africa deaths. (1607-1890)

INCLUDING countless assassinations.
Ah yes, "humanitarianism" and "democracy". Isn't that what America is all about? God Bless America ...

Now you wonder why you're "hated".
SouljahSouljahC4
Don't get me wrong the United States AND Europeans are responsible for much of the turmoil that is going on around the world. Having said that you mean to tell me that these various countries where you cite these murders and atrocities that none of the indigenous people had NOTHING to do with it! ArabianQueen, come now! I can tell you that in for example Yugoslavia the people were killing each other, Christians against the Muslims, vice versa. ALL of them are white and European. Cambodia, Pol Pot. Who caused him and their gov't to kill their people by the thousands no less. All Asians. What about the current situation in Sudan? More and more I keep hearing about how the Arabs are enslaving, brainwashing, exiling, and MURDERING indiginous black Nubians daily in their "civil" war. Let's talk about that. I can say I want everyone to have the freedom of sovereignty. But let's be fair about it. But I am a black woman first and foremost and my interest lies in things that will benefit black African people all over the world. I will post more on this later.

Souljah
A ArabianQueenA2
I am in no way implying that the rest of the world hasn't had their share of terrorism, they have. But for a country such as the United States to start a "war on terrorism" when it exists in it's foreign policy, and has a history of terrorism FAR WORST than any other, is down right hypocritical. When I'm asked to express my gratitude at the liberation of Kuwait, when it was at the expense of 2,000,000 Iraqi's, don't expect me to start applauding. Had it not been for money and oil, the United States would NOT have come running.

The statistics I stated were not statistic of soldiers that were dying, but of CIVILIANS. So just because there were civil wars in many of those countries, it justified US killings?

Visit the website http://www.americanstateterrorism.com/ and even YOU will be taken aback, I only listed some.

If you could bring me a state with a far worse and brutal history of imperialism, casualty deaths, hypocracy and double standards, I will bow out gracefully.
A ArabianQueenA2
Do you honestly believe a bunch of middle easterners would've had the money/intelligence to perpetrate such an act? I mean, I know "America" is telling us that the "hijackers" were Muslim/Arabs, but you don't believe that there was some inside help?

Consider the following:

The ruling elites within the U.S. military/government planned, ordered and supported the September 11 terror attacks.

Here are ten facts (among many others) which support this conclusion:

(1) Some very revealing criminal insider trading took place on Wall Street the week before September 11, 2001. Somebody actually made millions of dollars from the death of thousands of people at the WTC. The specific type of insider trading, and the people and banks involved, provide very strong circumstantial evidence that wealthy individuals allied with the CIA had prior knowledge of the World Trade Center attack.

(2) Most revealing of all is the fact that not a single U.S. Air Force jet fighter was scrambled from Andrews Air Force Base "” which is only 10 miles from the Pentagon "” even a full hour after the first WTC tower was hit. Andrews AFB is charged with defending Washington D.C.'s airspace. Yet the U.S. Air Force allowed the aircraft destined to hit the Pentagon to fly freely on an unauthorized flight path through tightly controlled airspace, descend rapidly in a tight spiral, and finally come screaming in over the treetops to slam into its target.

Definitely not acceptable behavior for an aircraft in controlled airspace over Washington D.C.

It is absolutely established, standard procedure for the U.S. Air Force and the National Guard to rapidly intercept any off-course aircraft within controlled airspaces, and to shoot them down if necessary. Therefore, somebody at the highest level of the U.S. government ordered Andrews AFB "” and all the other U.S.A.F. and National Guard fighter squadrons from Boston to New York to Washington D.C. "” to stand down and allow the WTC and the Pentagon to be hit. (On the Army side, interestingly.)

(3) The U.S. Air Force does have the technological ability to electronically hijack large jet aircraft and guide them by remote control "” if the necessary hardware and software are pre-installed in the target aircraft. All the hijacked jets were flown with a far higher level of skill than the alleged hijackers possessed. In particular, whoever was actually guiding the aircraft that hit the Pentagon had the skill of a military jet fighter pilot.

(4) Not only was the aircraft that hit the Pentagon flown in the tightly maneuverable manner of a jet fighter, it was also about the size of one, or smaller. Whatever it actually was, it was definitely not a big commercial jet airliner like a Boeing 757. Immediately after impact, the damage to the side of the Pentagon was much narrower than the wingspan of a 757, and there was very little debris outside. This relatively narrow hole in the Pentagon immediately after impact cannot be explained by the 757's wings being sheared off on impact, with only the fuselage penetrating. If the wings had been sheared off on impact there would have been flaming debris outside all over the place, with the jet fuel in the wings burning in an area commensurate with the wingspan. But the area outside, all around the impact point, was relatively clean. Later, during the fire inside the Pentagon, the roof and four upper floors collapsed over a slightly wider area, yet it was still nowhere near the 124 ft. wingspan of a Boeing 757.

Whatever hit the Pentagon not only punched a relatively narrow hole, it went inside only as far as one ring. Each ring at the Pentagon is 50 ft. wide, measured from the outer wall toward the inside. This is quite a bit less than the 155 ft. length of a 757, and yet there was no tail section or mass of aircraft debris outside the Pentagon. In addition to that, the aircraft penetrated only the ground floor. The four upper floors collapsed later, during the fire. The Pentagon is 71 ft. high. A Boeing 757 is 45 ft. high at the tail, over half the total height of the building. If a huge 757 flying at hundreds of miles an hour had somehow managed to hug the ground and miraculously penetrate only the ground floor, that would mean that the tail would have been sheared off with the debris visible outside. Instead, there was nothing left of the aircraft outside and the photographic evidence indicates that the initial hole punched in the Pentagon was only about 10 ft. high. (See photos and diagrams at links below.)

Even inside the Pentagon there was very little aircraft debris. At a September 12 press conference held at the Pentagon, Arlington County Fire Chief Ed Plaugher was asked by a journalist: "Is there anything left of the aircraft at all?"

Chief Plaugher replied:

"First of all, the question about the aircraft, there are some small pieces of aircraft visible from the interior during this fire-fighting operation I'm talking about, but not large sections. In other words, there's no fuselage sections and that sort of thing. You know, I'd rather not comment on that."

When asked by a journalist: "Where is the jet fuel?", Plaugher said:

"We have what we believe is a puddle right there that the "” what we believe is to be the nose of the aircraft. So "”"
Yeah, right.

A huge, fuel-laden, commercial jet airliner flying at hundreds of miles an hour would have knocked out a much bigger hole, penetrated much farther, left a great deal of aircraft debris inside the Pentagon and created a lot more fire damage.

See http://www.bosankoe.btinternet.co.uk/ and http://www.asile.org/citoyens/numero13/pentagone/erreurs_en.htm
for compelling photographic evidence that the Pentagon was obviously not hit by a large, commercial jet airliner. Whatever actually hit the Pentagon was definitely much smaller, like a jet fighter or a missile.

The criminal Bush regime is lying to us about what hit the Pentagon, just as it is lying about everything else connected to 9-11.

(5) Even the mainstream mass-media, FBI agents from Minneapolis, Minnesota like Coleen Rowley, FBI agents in Phoenix, Arizona, and a few members of Congress like Rep. Cynthia McKinney have publicized evidence and testimony that the criminal Bush regime had plenty of prior knowledge of plans for the September 11 attacks. They revealed that the Bush regime brushed off warnings from the intelligence services of foreign governments and even suppressed investigations by FBI agents.

When this bombshell was finally made public, desperate defenders of the indefensible entertained the world with laughable spin, portraying America's criminal rulers as innocent children with coloring books who simply failed to "connect the dots". Of course it's true that Unpresident Gee Dubbya would certainly prefer a nice, simple, non-verbal, connect-the-dots coloring book rather than struggle with all those big words in some boring ol' FBI report, but the war criminals who are actually running this country are a little more competent than that.

Their absurdly lame excuses may be entertaining, but the implication of their foreknowledge and their suppression of an FBI investigation is as deadly serious as it is obvious: the ruling elites within the U.S. government were the ultimate authority behind the 9-11 attacks.

Even with the above revelations, some people still can't believe the Bush regime would be so bold as to carry out the attacks itself. They figure the regime merely saw the attacks coming and did nothing to stop them since it had so much to gain. This is no more credible than the "connect-the-dots" spin, however. If the Bush regime would go so far as to suppress an FBI investigation and brush off international warnings, they were obviously more than passive spectators. America's criminal rulers didn't get control of "The World's Lone Remaining Superpower" in the first place by being passive spectators of world events. America's genocidal foreign policy and the hijacked election of 2000 are evidence enough of that. Since these war criminals have been, and still are, actively suppressing public investigations of the subsequent hijackings committed on 9-11-2001, it is highly probable that they were actively involved in planning and executing them also.

The attacks were just too overwhelmingly beneficial to the Bush regime, and indeed, critically needed, for them not to be intimately involved. The 9-11 attacks came at just the time the unelected Bush regime needed them:

A -- to neutralize the growing political challenges within the U.S. to its criminality and illegitimacy;

B -- to stimulate the failing American economy with infusions of blood-soaked cash through U.S. military/government spending "” paid for with the lives of innocent people in America, Afghanistan, Palestine, Colombia and many other parts of the world;

C -- most essential of all, to provide the propaganda excuse for the military conquest of oil-rich Central Asia, which the American plutocracy had been planning for at least ten years. The bogus "war on terrorism" will also be used to attempt the final enslavement of the Iraqi people and the entire Middle East in order to get total control of its oil.

See also:
Bush and 911 Foreknowledge

(6) Of course, revelations of the illegitimate Bush regime's complicity in the 9-11 terror attacks would not be particularly helpful to their campaign of hysterical, flag-waving propaganda, used to mindlessly "justify" the unjustifiable "” the obscenely hypocritical state terrorism which followed. Particularly since that American state terrorism was perpetrated against innocent Afghan civilian men, women and children who had absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with the September 11 attacks.

So the lapdog U.S. Congress stalled the beginning of their official "investigation" until June 2002 "” for almost nine months "” while thousands of Afghan men, women and deadly terrorist children were slaughtered by the heroic U.S. military to make the world safe for Hypocrisy. At last the ravaged Afghan nation was happily enslaved to The Land of the Free, and the Stars n' Stripes waved triumphantly in the breeze above the dismembered bodies of terrorist Afghan infants.

Once America's latest service to mankind was accomplished, however, even some of the patriotic sheeple were becoming increasingly curious as to how the supreme military power of the world could have been shaken to it's very foundations by a handful of swarthy, bearded men armed with plastic knives and boxcutters.

By 2002 the initial mass-orgy of patriotism and self-righteous intoxication was definitely waning, like all those cheap little American-flag stickers on cars and trucks and SUVs, steadily fading in the sunlight of reality. America was beginning to feel the souring effects of a national hangover, and it was essential therefore to refill the hollow spaces of the flag-wavers' simian skulls, to inject their All-American veins with renewed doses of the Official Version of unreality. Congress, at last, has had to risk some semblance of hearings "” which are nevertheless being held mostly behind closed doors, with the evidence kept secret, the testimony kept secret and even the findings to be kept secret. Really inspires confidence, doesn't it?

In the meantime, people who are still foolish enough to take the corporate mass-media seriously at all have already had their pliant little minds thoroughly programmed by months of hysterical, propagandistic trial-by-media, and of course this will continue. The long-delayed Congressional hearings will be used merely to reinforce the official coverup of U.S. government complicity in the September 11 attacks.

After the Pearl Harbor attack there was an immediate, well-publicized, sham investigation which blamed the two commanding officers, an Admiral and a General, for "negligence". They were scapegoats, of course, and they were posthumously exonerated after it was far too late. So it's the standard M.O. of the criminal U.S. government to have at least the appearance of a big, public "investigation" of something as monumental as the 9-11 attacks. And yet they can't do even that. Thanks to information made available worldwide all over the internet, the official coverup has been such a challenge that they had to stall for almost nine months to begin even secret Congressional hearings. Pathetic.

If foreign terrorists had been responsible for the September 11 attacks it would have been the greatest intelligence failure in U.S. history. Yet, after all these months, no U.S. government officials or agencies have been held responsible, even though somebody at a very high level ordered Andrews and several other Air Force bases to stand down and allow the WTC towers and the Pentagon to be hit. The official Congressional "investigation" will, in all likelihood, scapegoat a few hapless mid-level officials, while letting the highest-level criminals go free, as always.

There will never be any honest, public, official investigation of the September 11 attacks. The criminals in control of this country have too much to hide.

(7) Criminal hoaxes have been planned and perpetrated several times before to provide the essential propaganda to launch a U.S. war:

A -- In 1962, following the "Bay of Pigs" debacle, U.S. military leaders had a plan for committing terrorist acts against Americans in Miami and elsewhere, while making it look like Cuba was responsible. Codenamed "Operation Northwoods", the plan was intended to provide the propaganda necessary to create popular sentiment for an invasion of Cuba. (See Body of Secrets, by James Bamford.)

The September 11 attacks were a modern-day "Operation Northwoods". Instead of Cuba, however, Moslems were blamed this time "” because Moslem countries are sitting over most of the world's oil reserves.

B -- "Operation Northwoods" wasn't the first time Cuba was set up to be the fall guy. During the Spanish-American War in 1898, "Remember the Maine!" was a propaganda refrain chanted by crooked newspapers from coast to coast. Contrary to the deceit of jingoistic journalists, however, the battleship Maine was not sunk by "Cuban terrorists". But of course the lie was eagerly believed by Americans, and it provided the needed propaganda to launch the war. The Spanish-American War was instigated by the piratical American plutocracy in order to seize Spanish territory and assets in the Caribbean and the Philippines.

C -- Until the 9-11 attacks, the greatest case of U.S. government fraud involving an assault on Americans was the December 7, 1941 attack on Pearl Harbor. The Pearl Harbor attack was known about in advance. It was allowed to happen because it provided the overwhelming propaganda needed to launch a war against the German and Japanese imperialist competitors of the American Empire.

D -- The 1964 Gulf of Tonkin incident was a hoax that provided the propaganda needed to escalate the Vietnam Genocide.

E -- The Kuwaiti hospital incubator hoax provided propaganda for the Desert Storm terror campaign and genocide of the Iraqi people in 1991.

F -- The Bosnian "concentration camp" hoax of 1992, and the Racak "massacre" hoax of 1999 provided the needed propaganda for the U.S./NATO terror campaign against the Yugoslavian people.

G -- These and other examples are described in more detail in

(8) The brutal terrorism of September 11 against the American people is a propaganda gold mine without precedent for the brutal terrorists of the U.S. military/government and their obedient "news" media. This propaganda is absolutely essential to the U.S. military/government's geopolitical strategy for world domination. Without the backing of a thoroughly brainwashed, taxpaying American public, that strategy would be unsustainable.

(9) America's genocidal history makes it abundantly clear that the U.S. government and military have more than enough barbaric ruthlessness to commit such inhuman acts as 9-11. History proves conclusively that they place no value whatsoever on human life. That's what this whole website is about. Any government and military that will murder people by the millions for profit is not going to have any problem with murdering a few thousand Americans "” if there is a major profit motive for it.

(10) Underlying it all, the U.S. military/government has the profit motive: oil and empire.

Beginning in October 2001, the U.S. military brutally mass-murdered over 4000 innocent civilian men, women and children in Afghanistan "” people who had absolutely nothing to do with the September 11 attacks.

That should be a very disturbing fact to anybody with a human conscience. Unfortunately, that rules out the entire leadership of the U.S. military/government. A few thousand violently murdered women and innocent children doesn't bother them in the slightest. Mass murder of innocent civilian people is just standard operating procedure for the U.S. military/government. History proves that conclusively.

Being the greatest terrorists in the world, the U.S. military/government has no interest in stopping all terrorism, only that which competes with their own. The Taliban were indeed a brutal, terroristic regime "” one which the U.S. government covertly supported in the first place. But negotiations with them over oil pipelines through Afghanistan finally broke down in August 2001, and only then did the U.S. government resolve to replace them with a more compliant regime. There were news reports as early as February 2001 that the U.S. was planning to invade Afghanistan, perhaps leaked in order to pressure the Taliban during the negotiations.

The American oil industry, Unocal in particular, had long sought to establish oil and gas pipelines from the Caspian Sea basin through Afghanistan to the Pakistani coast on the Indian Ocean. But after the war with the Soviets, Afghanistan became a very anarchic place, one in which the physical security of a pipeline could not be guaranteed. In the early to mid-1990s the U.S. military/government, through its puppets in Pakistan, covertly armed and supported the Taliban in the hopes that they could enforce sufficient order in Afghanistan to protect future American oil pipelines. Even with U.S./Pakistani support, however, the Taliban were never able to completely control Afghanistan's multi-ethnic warring tribes, so the U.S. began to turn on them. During the negotiations the bullying U.S. representative actually told the Taliban that they would have to choose between "a carpet of gold, or a carpet of bombs." The Taliban had too much self-respect to cave in to American bullying and they stuck by their principles, preferring to take their chances with American bombs rather than dirty their souls with American gold.

The subsequent American state terrorism, invasion and occupation of Afghanistan allowed the U.S. military/government to install a fully obedient puppet regime and get total control of the country at last. As an added bonus, the U.S. military now has bases in Tajikistan, Kyrgyzstan and Uzbekistan as well.

America's brutal state terrorism of the Afghan peoples is therefore an essential part of a long-term, pre-planned, geopolitical strategy to strengthen the U.S. grip on Middle East oil and get total control of Caspian Sea oil.

The September 11 attacks provided the essential propaganda pretext for a complete military/political/economic takeover of the entire Middle East and Central Asia.

Control of Central Asia and its oil reserves will give the U.S. government a fatal military/economic advantage over both Russia and China, and assure the supremacy of the genocidal American Empire for many dark years to come.

http://www.americanstateterrorism.com/

"This day have I perfected your religion for you, completed My favour upon you, and have chosen for you Islam as your religion. " Quran 5:3


"Our religion teaches us to be intelligent. Be peaceful, be courteous, obey the law, respect everyone; but if someone puts his hand on you, send him to the cemetery. That's a good religion."
Malcolm X 1965 on Islam

[This message was edited by ArabianQueen on November 09, 2002 at 10:14 AM.]

[This message was edited by ArabianQueen on November 09, 2002 at 10:25 AM.]
L LeaA2
Oh please.

The Politics of Dead Children, and here Iraqi death toll doesn't add up

quote:
Maurice Murad, wrote in the new book Into the Buzzsaw about trying to track down the sanctions-deaths story in late 1995. Murad, whose parents were born and raised in Baghdad, travelled to his ancestral home to see how sanctions were "killing my people."

Instead, after weeks of visiting various cities and literally begging the government and everyone he met to show him starving people, Murad concluded "there was no food crisis in Iraq." He prepared a "detailed rendering of what was wrong with all the other stories" about sanctions, and left it at that. "The last thing I wanted to do was get into a pissing match with broadcasts in my own news division. Even now I am loath to do it because most of the people involved are first-rate journalists who seldom get snookered. And anyway, they know who they are."


Further from the same article,

quote:
Garfield's conclusion: Between August, 1991, and March, 1998, there were between 106,000 and 227,000 excess deaths of children under five. Recently, he has estimated the latter, less conservative number at 500,000 plus between 1990 and 2002.

The chief causes? "Contaminated water, lack of high-quality foods, inadequate breast-feeding, poor weaning practices and inadequate supplies in the curative health care system. This was the product of both a lack of some essential goods, and inadequate or inefficient use of existing essential goods."

And, of course, sanctions. "Even a small number of documentable excess deaths is an expression of a humanitarian disaster, and this number is not small," he concluded.

Garfield believes that during the last few years of oil-for-food, most of the blame for poor child mortality figures can be laid on the government of Iraq. And he also believes that if the country is bombed heavily, "it will be a terrible blow."


On Afghanistan casualties:The Prof Who Can't Count Straight

And here:

[URL=http://mattwelch.com/FreelanceSave/Chomsky.htm ]Manufacturing Dissent[/URL]
quote:
When Marc Herold, a U.S. professor of women's studies and international economics at the University of New Hampshire, produced a study last December claiming the U.S. military campaign had killed 3,700 Afghan civilians, the figure was not just quoted approvingly, but presented as an undercount by columnists from The Nation, the Guardian UK, the Daily Mirror, Irish Times, Hartford Courant and Sydney Morning Herald. The Arab press jumped on the study, making room for Herold's numbers along with cartoons of Jews drinking the blood of young Palestinians, and interviews with poets who reckon that Israeli settlers ought to be "shot dead."

Like Chomsky's bogus prognosis, Herold's study turned out to be notable mostly for being so wildly off-base, yet so enduringly popular among anti-war circles. Within days of publication, an army of amateur online writers picked through Herold's math and discovered several instances of double-counting and heavy reliance on the Afghan Islamic Press, which got its data from the Taliban. Later, The Associated Press, Reuters and other organizations conducted their own inquiries into civilian deaths, arriving at numbers between 600 and 1,500.


And if you lack the sense to know that people die in wars, I can't help you. But let's see what would have happened without U.S. intervention:
From RAWA

quote:
On November 1995 a young lady-teacher of Khadija school in Jozjan province was stalked by a commander of Dostum's militia while on her way home. The commander and his armed men stopped the young lady- teacher and ordered her to get into the jeep. The woman, who knew what was wanted of her, spat in their faces and let them know what she thought of them. The arrogant commander immediately drew out his pistol and fired at the woman, killing her on the spot. That was not all. They broke into her home that same night and took all the family members away so that no one would be left to bring up charges or spread allegations against them. To date no further information or clue regarding the fate of the miserable family has become available.


But I guess that's preferable to U.S. intervention. Right. And on the subject of the Kuwaitis:deAtkine

quote:
During the Kuwait war, Iraqi forces took over the town of Khafji in northeast Saudi Arabia after the Saudis had evacuated the place. General Khalid bin Sultan, the Saudi ground forces commander, requested a letter from General Norman Schwarzkopf, stating it was the U.S. general who ordered an evacuation from the Saudi town. And in his account of the Khafji battle, General Bin Sultan predictably blames the Americans for the Iraqi occupation of the town. In reality the problem was that the light Saudi forces in the area left the battlefield. The Saudis were in fact outgunned and outnumbered by the Iraqi unit approaching Khafji but Saudi pride required that foreigners be blamed.



Further, the UN administers the sanctions, the same way they run the refugee camps the Palestinians live in. Got a problem with it, take it up with them. As it is, the U.N. notes the U.S. contributes far more than any of the Middle Eastern nations combined. Contribution by country
C CheetahMember
I am continuously amazed at the cold, cruel and murderous attitudes that Americans nuture and defend when it comes to the lives and livihoods of human beings in other nations (for example, Afghanistan & Irag).

It's almost as if we Americans believe we should be immune from attacks or war within our borders and the pain and suffering that results by some GOD-GIVEN-RIGHT!

I shouldn't be surprised, there is no other nation on the face of the earth with a rate of gun deaths as high as the U.S.! And we call ourselves "civilized?" We live in a war zone right here in this country. We are barbaric!

Many African Americans don't seem to care that the wars in which we've fought brought us no closer to equal treatment within our own borders.

The overwhelming stench of death caused by U.S. aggression in other lands has risen to high heaven! And Americans wonder why we're hated?

A better question to ask is whether our support of this despicable carnage is pleasing to Almighty God.

D. Drew
ocatchingsocatchingsA1
So far you are proving my point.

quote:
Estimated 672,000 Japanese people, 180,000+ German and thousands of French civlians. (1942-45)

It seems to me there was no mention of concentration camps, Hitler's total war policy, the massacre at Nanjing, Battalion 731, the treatment of POWs and civilians by the Japanese. Let me guess that's our fault also????

quote:
Estimated 290 Iranian airline passengers. (1988)


I guess all the airlines blown up by Arabs/muslims in the name of their god don't count. Weren't the planes hijacked on Sept 11th full of civilians...no wait that must be our fault also????

quote:
Estimated over 100 Libyan civlian deaths, including Qadhafi's 2 yr old daughter. (1981-89)


See above, he bought that on himself

quote:
Estimated over 1,000,000 Afghani civlian deaths. (1979-1992)


How many do the Russians and the puppet government in place at the time get credit for???? Unless.....could that be our fault also???

[QUOTEEstimated 100,000 Palestinian civilian
deaths.[/QUOTE]

I'm assuming that we are on this "America supplies Israel with weapons crap". Could you supply some numbers and casualties to the other countries that supply Israel with weapons, or....How about put some numbers to the amount of people killed by Palestinians with weapons from a foreign government.....let me guess both situations are our fault????

If that is too difficult then maybe you could dig into your sources and find out how much aid is provided by other countries, you know like how much aid was given by the Arab countries to those in need in Afghanistan?
L LeaA2
Oh, Ocatchings,

Don't you get it? They are all just innocent victims, there is no such thing as cause and effect, Americans are just psychopaths who jauntily wander the world killing people for no reason. It is unprecendented in the history of the world for people to die in wars. At no point should a terrorist ever expect that people will get tired of him having airlines blown up. The Japanese should never have guessed we might retaliate for Pearl Harbor. At no point should it occur to a Palestinian that they will die if they blow up themselves along with the people they wish to kill, and that some people might look unfavorably on that sort of thing roll eyes
I IndependentManB5
quote:
Originally posted by ArabianQueen:
I am in _no way_ implying that the rest of the world hasn't had their share of terrorism, they have. But for a country such as the United States to start a "war on terrorism" when it exists in it's foreign policy, and has a history of terrorism FAR WORST than any other, is down right hypocritical. When I'm asked to express my gratitude at the liberation of Kuwait, when it was at the expense of 2,000,000 Iraqi's, don't expect me to start applauding. Had it not been for money and oil, the United States would NOT have come running.

The statistics I stated were not statistic of soldiers that were dying, but of CIVILIANS. So just because there were civil wars in many of those countries, it justified US killings?

Visit the website http://www.americanstateterrorism.com/ and even YOU will be taken aback, I only listed some.

If you could bring me a state with a far worse and brutal history of imperialism, casualty deaths, hypocracy and double standards, I will bow out gracefully.


Ok ArabianQueen, with all due respect, bow out. Are you talking within the 1900's or today. Britain for one has a recoed far worse. Japan for another, they were brutal!!! A Chinese co-worker can attest to that!!! Let's not forget the Ottoman Turks while we're at it, they were much more imperialistic than present day United States!!!!

I don't believe one bit of your other post. It's Muslim/anti-American propaganda. But I can tell you the Russians have problems with Muslims and the Chinese do too. It was Muslim terrorists from Chechnea in the latest terrorist episode. My friends from India have always told me that Islam is a terrorist religion and I now believe it.

How about the 100,000 or so Palestinians that were killed by Jordan in 1970???? Why can't they go there and live??? I support Israel 100% now, thanks to September 11!!! I say we let Israel do what they feel they must to ensure their survival. I will never again be sypathetic to any Muslim cause!!!!!

You also conveniently left out the Turkish (Muslim) genoicide of Armenian Christians in 1915, somewhere in the neighborhood of 1.5 million!!!!!!!!

Islam has a far worse record for brutality than the United States does!!! Oh, yeah, you also forgot about the murders thatare taking place in the Sudan by Arab Muslims against Black Sudanese Christians!!! This I can prove!!!!! I posted graphic pictures of what these people are doing in the Sudan, my bad, they were gruesome!!! So don't throw stones if you're living in a glass house!!!!!!!

wink
L LoveSoulPeace (Guest)
The bottom line is this, there were atrocities committed by so-called Christians and atrocities committed by so-called Muslims.
I agree that on the mother continent the plight of the Nuba and countless other blacks in Africa is getting less and less attention now because of 11 Sept 01. But what we must remember is that we must be for the unity of all people to live in the world in peace.
A ArabianQueenA2
Ocatchings

"It seems to me there was no mention of concentration camps, Hitler's total war policy, the massacre at Nanjing, Battalion 731, the treatment of POWs and civilians by the Japanese. Let me guess that's our fault also????"

I was asked to feel gratitude towards America, so I expressed my gratitude. I wasn't asked about atrocities commited by other countries. The 150,000 killed and God knows how many children born after that with some physical aberration IS America's fault. But no, it's ok, because Hiroshima and Nagaski WERE military targets right?

"I guess all the airlines blown up by Arabs/muslims in the name of their god don't count."

Oh since you're justifying American ones, we can justify Muslim/Arab ones. American hypocracy YET again.

"Weren't the planes hijacked on Sept 11th full of civilians...no wait that must be our fault also????"

Not yours no, your governments, yes.

"See above, he bought that on himself"

Oh his 2 year old daughter brought it on herself too? After all this American justification, Hitler might as well be a saint, don't you think?

"I'm assuming that we are on this "America supplies Israel with weapons crap". "

If crap means true, then O.K.

"Could you supply some numbers and casualties to the other countries that supply Israel with weapons"

Oh you mean more then the U.S. dollars that are being paid? Sorry, non-existent.

"If that is too difficult then maybe you could dig into your sources and find out how much aid is provided by other countries, you know like how much aid was given by the Arab countries to those in need in Afghanistan?"

Is the American definition of aid, "bombs"? Do you know how many million you put into starvation?

IndependentMan

"Ok ArabianQueen, with all due respect, bow out. Are you talking within the 1900's or today. Britain for one has a recoed far worse. Japan for another, they were brutal!!! A Chinese co-worker can attest to that!!! Let's not forget the Ottoman Turks while we're at it, they were much more imperialistic than present day United States!!!!"

If you could provide statistics that would outnumber the US's, I'll give you your props.

"I don't believe one bit of your other post. It's Muslim/anti-American propaganda."

By an American?! So when someone speaks out the truth it's "propaganda". I really do wish you'd open your eyes. If the American government told you to jump off bridges I wouldn't be suprised if you complied.

"But I can tell you the Russians have problems with Muslims and the Chinese do too. It was Muslim terrorists from Chechnea in the latest terrorist episode. My friends from India have always told me that Islam is a terrorist religion and I now believe it."

Oh you mean the Hindu's that burn Muslims for a living? If Islam is such a "terrorist" "racist" "fanatic" religion, explain to me why it's the fastest growing and why 1 in 5 people are Muslims?

"How about the 100,000 or so Palestinians that were killed by Jordan in 1970???? Why can't they go there and live???"

Why can't the Jews go back to Europe? If Europe was responsible for the mistreatment and the anti-semitism then give them land there. I don't expect you to agree with this though, seeing as you're residing on Native Indian land.

"You also conveniently left out the Turkish (Muslim) genoicide of Armenian Christians in 1915, somewhere in the neighborhood of 1.5 million!!!!!!!!"

AGAIN, I was expressing my gratitude towards the United States. If I was to list other countried, we'd be here all day.

"Islam has a far worse record for brutality than the United States does!!!"

Hahahahahahaha.

"I posted graphic pictures of what these people are doing in the Sudan, my bad, they were gruesome!!! So don't throw stones if you're living in a glass house!!!!!!!"

That last phrase is invalid. You see, I'm blaming YOUR government, KNOWING that individuals such as yourselves didn't ENGAGE in the terrorist activities of the US. If I was "enslaving" or "brutalising" the Christians in Sudan then you would have the absolute right to say that. I condemn that more than anything. But before you critisizing them of being Muslim or Arab, they're black first and foremost, so are those in Nigeria, and sniper attackers in VA, does this give me the prerogative to judge Blacks? Irrespective of their ethnicity or religion?

IndependentMan, with all due respect, why do you judge my religion by the unrighteous men who practice it? Our holy prophet Muhammad taught us that if we were to kill a peaceful Jew or a Christian OUTSIDE war, we will never smell the scent of heaven. The Quran also states, that if you kill one person, it's like killing ALL of humanity. So in reality these "Muslims" aren't Muslims at all. Just as much as you wouldn't consider Hitler a Christian.

Salaam

"This day have I perfected your religion for you, completed My favour upon you, and have chosen for you Islam as your religion. " Quran 5:3


"Our religion teaches us to be intelligent. Be peaceful, be courteous, obey the law, respect everyone; but if someone puts his hand on you, send him to the cemetery. That's a good religion."
Malcolm X 1965 on Islam

I IndependentManB5
quote:
Originally posted by ArabianQueen:
If you could bring me a state with a far worse and brutal history of imperialism, casualty deaths, hypocracy and double standards, I will bow out gracefully.


This was the reason why I listed other countries, AQ. I think I have proven that Islam was/is far more brutal and terrorist than the US has been in the 200 years of it's existence times 10!!!!

That's the purpose of your "jihad". To declare war, so you can kill innocent Christians and Jews and go to heaven and be with allah who incidently was originally a MOON GOD!!!!

I am now with my friends from India who never spoke a bad word about any ethinicity/culture except Islam. I am 100% on their side. How do you expect us to sympathize with you when you hate us???

FYI: Arab/Muslim atrocities in Sudan number 2 million and that's on the low side!! And it's recent!!!!!! You can't even compare this with anything the US has done CIA included!!!!

I am sure you are devout in your religion. I respect that. But if you hate America so much, why are you on an American website. Don't Muslims have their own??? I will not go on a Muslim web site, number one, they would delete me!!!! But I am not interested in the culture, so I do not bother.

Why is Islam the fastest gowing religion??
--well I think for a few reasons. The parts of the world where it's growing are very poor and birth control is not widely used. Number 2, FORCE, as in the Sudan. Yes Christianity used force, but Christians do not use that tactic today....not like the Muslims. I think it's message has nothing to do with why it's growing fast.

wink
ocatchingsocatchingsA1
Yes I do get it but like I said before if we are going to pass the blame lets pass it out equality and quit trying to blame the US soley. Loss of life is tragic regardless of the circumstance. AQ is a perfect example of what I'm talking about. She comes on the board with one side of the story and as soon as you ask for the other side it doesn't exist.

AQ....
quote:
I was asked to feel gratitude towards America, so I expressed my gratitude. I wasn't asked about atrocities commited by other countries.
Who asked you to show your gratitude towards America???? Speaking for me personally, I could care less what you think and you need to look for your sympathy elsewhere and quit trying to drum up support for a bunch of cowards. To me its just typical of passing the blame. How many times since you have been on this board have you attacked the practices or policies of anyother government confused Let me help you out...none. But since you keep dodging, let me ask you directly what is your take on the actions of the Japanese in WWII especially in Nanjing, the Russians all over especially in Afghanistans, how many people did they kill? How about the Taliban way of life since you have not condemed it and if it was so popular why are you surfing the net instead of donning a burqua? Would you also mind digging up some facts on the influence Russian, nKorean and Chinese arms sales and influence in the Middle East. And since you missed the question here it is again: Other countries supply Arabs with money, training and weapons. You put a number of those killed by American influence, do you have a total for those killed by the influence of other countries or do you just roll the numbers up and slot them in the US only pile roll eyes
A ArabianQueenA2
"This was the reason why I listed other countries, AQ. I think I have proven that Islam was/is far more brutal and terrorist than the US has been in the 200 years of it's existence times 10!!!!"

List other countries with FACTS and FIGURES. So the estimated 90,000,000 Native people of America and Africa deaths (1607-1890) doesn't outnumber all.

"That's the purpose of your "jihad". To declare war, so you can kill innocent Christians and Jews and go to heaven and be with allah who incidently was originally a MOON GOD!!!!"

So much you know about Jihad.
Jihad (JIHAAD)

It is an Arabic word the root of which is Jahada, which means to strive for a better way of life. The nouns are Juhd, Mujahid, Jihad, and Ijtihad. The other meanings are: endeavor, strain, exertion, effort, diligence, fighting to defend one's life, land, and religion.

Jihad should not be confused with Holy War; the latter does not exist in Islam nor will Islam allow its followers to be involved in a Holy War. The latter refers to the Holy War of the Crusaders.

Jihad is not a war to force the faith on others, as many people think of it. It should never be interpreted as a way of compulsion of the belief on others, since there is an explicit verse in the Qur'an that says:There is no compulsion in religionAl-Qur'an: Al-Baqarah (2:256).

Jihad is not a defensive war only, but a war against any unjust regime. If such a regime exists, a war is to be waged against the leaders, but not against the people of that country. People should be freed from the unjust regimes and influences so that they can freely choose to believe in Allah.

Not only in peace but also in war Islam prohibits terrorism, kidnapping, and hijacking, when carried against civilians. Whoever commits such violations is considered a murderer in Islam, and is to be punished by the Islamic state. during wars, Islam prohibits Muslim soldiers from harming civilians, women, children, elderly, and the religious men like priests and rabies. It also prohibits cutting down trees and destroying civilian constructions.

"I am now with my friends from India who never spoke a bad word about any ethinicity/culture except Islam. I am 100% on their side."

Not to be judgemental, but the both the Muslim and Christians in India are suffering from Hindu (or most probably a distorted version of Hinduism) in India.

Mr. PENCE: Mr. Speaker, the other day The Washington Times ran an
excellent article on an attack on a church outside Mysore, India by the
Bajrang Dal, a branch of the Rashtriya Swayamsevak Sangh (RSS), which is
the parent organization of the ruling party, the BJP. The attack
seriously wounded about 20 people, according to the article.
Approximately 70 attackers wore the saffron headbands that symbolize the
militant Hindu nationalists. They attacked while worship was going on.

This attack is part of what the Times called a "new spate of attacks."
It also reports that in February, two church workers and a teen-age boy
were shot while praying and the boy was injured; two Christian
missionaries were beaten with rods while bicycling home; and a Christian
cemetery in Port Blair was vandalized. Those are just incidents that
have occurred this month. Unfortunately, they are part of a pattern that
church leaders described as a "reign of terror."

Since Christmas 1998, a number of priests have been murdered in India,
several nuns have been raped (with the enthusiastic endorsement of the
Vishwa Hindu Parishad (VHP), another branch of the RSS), churches have
been burned, missionary Graham Staines and his two young sons have been
burned to death while sleeping in their jeep, Christian schools and
prayer halls have been attacked, and numerous other acts of violence
and/or hatred have taken place. In 1997, police opened fire on a
Christian religious festival, putting an end to it.

Last year, a member of the Indian Cabinet said that everyone who lives
in India must either be a Hindu or be subservient to Hindus. It is
clear, Mr. Speaker, that India intends to ram its Hindutva policy down
the throats of everyone in the subcontinent.

Christians are not the only ones being oppressed by the militant Hindu
regime in Delhi. Sikhs, Kashmiris, Dalits and others have also been
tyrannized in the name of Hindu nationalism. Just recently more
Kashmiris have been made to disappear by the Indian government. A report
by the Movement Against State Repression shows that India holds over
52,000 Sikh political prisoners and Amnesty International reports that
there are tens of thousands of others. The government's forces have
murdered more than a quarter of a million Sikhs, over 200,000 Christians
in Nagaland, over 75,000 Kashmiri-Muslims and thousands upon thousands
of people from the Dalit caste, as well as minorities such as Tamils,
Assamese, Manipuris, Bodos and others.

Times - February 28, 2002"

So if these friends of yours are Hindu's, I'm not at all surprised if they hate our religion.

"How do you expect us to sympathize with you when you hate us???"

WHO SAID I HATE YOU? I don't hate Americans AT ALL. I actually have American family/friends. Just because I abhor your government, DOESN'T MEAN I hate you or want to kill you in anyway. You have done NOTHING wrong.

"FYI: Arab/Muslim atrocities in Sudan number 2 million and that's on the low side!! And it's recent!!!!!! You can't even compare this with anything the US has done CIA included!!!!"

AGAIN, 2 million doesn't outnumber US killings. As for Sudan, you don't think the Muslim/Arab peace activists haven't suffered too?

The Sudan government persecuted human rights defenders. Ghazi Suleiman and Ali Mahmoud Hassanein, well-known advocates and human rights activists, were detained without charge by security forces from December 9, 2000 until February 17, 2001, after they condemned the arrests. Suleiman was reportedly tortured, sustaining a head injury and being hospitalized twice during detention The principal lawyer/advocate for the NDA defendants, Mustafa Abdel Gadir, was arrested and interrogated on the eve of the trial which started in May. On March 11, 2001, security forces arrested director Dr. Nageed Nagmeldin el Toum and two staff members from the Amal Centre, where free medical treatment and assistance to victims of torture and other human rights violations was provided. The staffers were released the same day but Dr. Nageed, former president of the banned Doctors' Union, was not released until March 29, 2001, after an international campaign. The confiscated office equipment was returned and the center reopened on June 27, 2001, the day before the ACP-EU visit. Another associate of Amal, Faisal el Bagir Mohamed, a journalist and human rights advocate, was detained without charges from June 13 to 26, 2001. On November 2, 2001, four lawyers/advocates and two members of the Sudanese Communist Party (banned) were detained and released within a few days and told to report daily to Security offices. All members of the loose coalition National Alliance for the Restoration of Democracy, it was believed that their detention was in connection with the upcoming bar association elections in December 2001. The last such elections were held in 1997 and were reportedly accompanied by widespread fraud on the part of the ruling party. One lawyer who failed to report on time to the Security offices was beaten with hoses and knotted wire when he arrived. Others were made to stand outside in the hot sun for two hours, a common form of ill-treatment in Sudan.

Human Rights World Report.

"I am sure you are devout in your religion. I respect that. But if you hate America so much, why are you on an American website. Don't Muslims have their own??? I will not go on a Muslim web site, number one, they would delete me!!!! But I am not interested in the culture, so I do not bother. "

A- What makes you think they'd delete you?
B- There's a difference between America and Americans. I'm sure many people despise my government, but not me as an individual. Maybe you do.
C- I'm on an African-American site. I have no hate for AA's at all seeing as they're peaceful people, so why can't I expand my horizons in this site?

"Why is Islam the fastest gowing religion??
--well I think for a few reasons. The parts of the world where it's growing are very poor and birth control is not widely used."

Then why is it the fastest growing religion IN the U.S.?

CNN

The second-largest religion in the world after Christianity, Islam is also the fastest-growing religion. In the United States, for example, nearly 80 percent of the more than 1,200 mosques have been built in the past 12 years.

Some scholars see an emerging Muslim renaissance as Islam takes root in many traditionally Christian communities.

Islam has drawn converts from all walks of life, most notably African-Americans. Former NAACP President Benjamin Chavis, who joined the Nation of Islam recently, personifies the trend.

"In societies where you have minorities that are discriminated against, I think they may find an appeal in Islam," said Waleed Kazziha of American University in Cairo.

ABCNEWS

Aaron Cambel was an American kid who used to hang out with friends cruising the local mall, picking up girls, checking out the latest fashions and getting in trouble.
"I was realized if I took the same path, I would have ended up the way they did, wasting my life away," says Cambel, who lives in Washington.
So he converted to Islam.
"It was the most simple and direct to understand of the religions I looked into," says Cambel, who converted four years ago. "It taught about moral character, and ethics and the way people should be treated."

Islam Liberates Black Americans

Cambel, 23, has joined one of the fastest growing religions in the United States. Experts agree Islam is one of the fastest growing religions in America. As many as five million Muslims live in the United States and in the last five years, the number of mosques in this country has increased from 843 to about 1,300.
"I think Muslims in the U.S. find greater opportunities to practice their faiths than most Islamic countries. It's an open society where religious freedom is protected by law and the constitution. "
"”Hassan Qacwini in Detroit
Most of the growth has come from immigration, but much of it is home-grown.
For many black Americans, Islam has become the religion of choice and some one million"”mostly men"”have converted.
"It is an American phenomenon, which started in the ghettoes of the north," says Yvonne Haedad, a professor of history of Islam and of Christian-Muslim Relations at Georgetown University. "It is a response to racism...it is seen as the religion of liberation."
Louis Farrakhan's Nation of Islam has become the most prominent black Islamic group in the United States. Black men in bow ties and dark suits emphasize the strict discipline of the order, which emphasizes empowerment, a key theme of the Million Man March on Washington in 1995.
But Farrakhan's anti-Semitic remarks"”calling Jews "bloodsuckers" who took from the community to build their own"”have brought controversy and publicity to the group.
"It's very visible, because Farrakhan is very visible," says Fahhim Abdulhadi, spokesman for the American Muslim Council. "Muslims in mainstream have lots of problems with Farrakhan."

Muslims Battle Prejudices

Many mainstream Muslims also have a problem with the tide of misunderstanding in the United States.
"We always need to explain so many issues, " says Hassan Qacwini, Imam of the Islamic Center of America in Detroit.
The most common misunderstanding, according to Qacwini, is that Islam fosters violence, a perception reconfirmed whenever extremist groups set off suicide bombs or massacre tourists in the Middle East.
"Islam is a peaceful religion," says Qacwini. "Some would try to connect terrorism to Islam, which is wrong."
Many Americans looked for a Muslim scapegoat when the Alfred P. Murrah building blew up in 1995.
"After the Oklahoma City bombing, people said it was Middle East terrorists," says Abdulhadi.
Several Middle Eastern men were briefly detained, and there were reports of harassment against Muslims, including beatings and a mosque burning.
Some Muslims point out that when Timothy McVeigh was arrested, no one accused him of bombing the federal building for religious reasons. "Nobody talks about McVeigh as a Christian terrorist," says Haedad.

"Number 2, FORCE, as in the Sudan. Yes Christianity used force, but Christians do not use that tactic today....not like the Muslims."

Myth "Islam was spread by the sword"

Many non-Muslims, when they think about Islam, picture religious fanatics on camels with a sword in one hand and a Qur'an in the other. This myth, which was made popular in Europe during the Crusades, is totally baseless. First of all, the Holy Qur'an clearly says "Let there be no compulsion in religion". In addition to this, Islam teaches that a person's faith must be pure and sincere, so it is certainly not something that can be forced on someone. In debunking the myth that Islam was "spread by the sword", the (non-Muslim) historian De Lacy O' Leary wrote: "History makes it clear, however, that the legend of fanatical Muslims sweeping through the world and forcing Islam at the point of the sword upon conquered races is one of the most fantastically absurd myths that historians have ever accepted." (Islam at the Crossroads, London, 1923, p. 8.). It should also be known that Muslims ruled Spain for roughly 800 years. During this time, and up to when they were finally forced out, the non-Muslims there were alive and flourishing. Additionally, Christian and Jewish minorities have survived in the Muslim lands of the Middle East for centuries. Countries such as Egypt, Morocco, Palestine, Lebanon, Syria and Jordan all have Christian and/or Jewish populations. If Islam taught that all people are supposed to be killed or forced to become Muslims, how did all of these non-Muslims survive for so long in the middle of the Islamic Empire? Additionally, if one considers the small number of Muslims who initially spread Islam from Spain and Morocco in the West to India and China in the East, one would realize that they were far too few to force people to be members of a religion against their will. Additionally, the great empire and civilization established by the Muslims had great staying power -- its citizens were proud to be part of it. The spread of Islam stands in contrast to the actions of the followers of Christianity, who since the time of the Emperor Constantine have made liberal use of the sword - often basing their conduct on Biblical verses. This was especially true of the colonization of South America and Africa, where native peoples were systematically wiped-out or forced to convert. It is also interesting to note that when the Mongols invaded and conquered large portions of the Islamic Empire, instead of destroying the religion, they adopted it. This is a unique occurrence in history - the conquerors adopting the religion of the conquered! Since they were the victors, they certainly could not have been forced to become Muslims!
http://www.thetruereligion.org/

"I think it's message has nothing to do with why it's growing fast."

Really? Let's look at the converts, shall we?

Abdul Halim Lee: "My assumed Muslim name is Abdul Halim Lee. I was born of African American parents in America in the l930's. My parents were Christians, pious Christians, I would say, and my brothers and sisters were all "raised in the church," so to speak ... I began to read the translation of the Qur'an. Immediately I was captivated by the authority of the "Speaker," and by the grandeur of the poetic nature of the work. There was no doubt that the Deity was the Author of this book ... I had sought the Truth and The Truth had led me here. I took Shahada in one of the prison offices with my friend and another witness."

Mr. Ibrahim Khalil: (He had earned the highest degree in Theological Science from the Egyptian Theological College and from the American College, Princeton University. His mission was to falsify the facts of Islam and encourage people to be against its principles.) ""Strongest among men in enmity to the believers will you find the Jews and the pagans; and nearest among them in love to the believers will you find those who say "We are Christians": Because among these there are men devoted to learning, and men who have renounced the world and they are not arrogant. And when they listen to the Revelation received by the Messenger you will see their eyes overfilling with tears, for they recognize the truth' they pray: "Our Lord! We believe, write us down among the witnesses. What cause can we have not to believe in Allah and the truth which has come to us, seeing that we ling for our Lord to admit is to the company of the righteous?" Qur'an: Surah Al-Maidah 5: 82-84 ... It is thus impossible for a human being, no matter how gifted and eloquent he might be, to bring even one verse like the Qur'an. And beyond this, a perfect system that encompasses the affairs of the religion, faith and life with a scientific logic above all sciences and beyond human depiction."

Yusuf Islam: "When I received the book (Quran) I realized that this was the true religion - religion not in the sense the West understands it, not the type for only old age. In the West whoever wishes to embrace a religion and make it his only was of life is deemed a fanatic. I was not a fanatic, I was at first confused between the body and soul. Then I realized that the body and soul are not apart and you don't have to go to the mountains to be religious; we must follow the will of God, then we can rise even higher than the angels. The first thing I wanted to do now was to be a Muslim."

Jermaine Jackson:"A great ripple had taken place in my thought. I made failing attempt to console myself that nothing had happened but I could not conceal this fact any longer from myself that at heart I had converted to Islam"

And that's just 4 of millions. Why would they convert?
I IndependentManB5
AQ,

Where did you get this 90,000,000 number from. This is NOT true. Most Africans who died during the passage where en-route to the Carribean or Brazil, NOT the USA. Americas slave population was one of the few that were "home produced". So your "fact", is in fact a LIE. Yes there were Indians who were killed off, many died from coming into contact with diseases from the Europeans, and the number was not even close to 10 million!!!!

We will fix the problem of Islam being the fastest growing religion in our nation!!!!! Blacks who convert to Islam did so based on a set of LIES perpetrated to go against, get even with "white" Christianity. On TBWT, you should have seen the black muslims dance and dodge when they encountered facts on the real Islam, and how racist the Arabs are. They never dealt with the FACT of the Arab genocide that is taking place as I write this in the Sudan. Nothing. One poster said that the original Arabs were black and Mohammed was. What a LIE!! Mohammeds family actually owned slaves!!!! The truth hurts these people, so they will chose to keep believing the LIE!!! There was a poster from the Sudan who saw some Saudis on an Arab show and they were calling Kofi Annan (sp) an abd, I'm sure you know what that is!!!!!! Many black converts to Islam are in prison or have been incarcerated at one time in their life!! But the fact remains that black Americans are overwhelmingly Christian....Thank God!!!!

My buddy from Albania says muslims are trouble makers there as well!!!!

Here's something you might have seen from a London paper:

West in mortal danger from Islam, says Putin
By Ambrose Evans-Pritchard in Brussels and Julius Strauss in Moscow
(Filed: 12/11/2002)


Islamic radicals are pursuing the systematic annihilation of non-Muslims, President Vladimir Putin claimed yesterday.

The Russian leader said at a European Union summit in Brussels that western civilisation faced a mortal threat from Muslim terrorists, and claimed that they had plans to create a "worldwide caliphate".


President Vladimir Putin
His words overshadowed the main achievement of the summit, which was to end years of wrangling over Moscow's isolated enclave in Kaliningrad.

The EU and Russia reached a compromise deal that will prevent Russian citizens from being cut off in the Baltic port as the EU's borders move east in 2004.

Mr Putin said the world no longer faced isolated acts of terrorism but a "concerted effort and programme" by a global network bent on slaughter, perhaps with nuclear weapons.

He said the West should face up to the reality that Chechen terrorists were religious extremists in league with al-Qa'eda, rather than a separatist movement seeking a breakaway republic.

If the West failed to deal with the Chechen terrorist threat, he said, there would be repeats of the Moscow theatre siege and the Bali bombing "all over the world".


Yup, It looks like Putin has the same feelings as I do and many other Americans who want to protect their country and way of life from Muslims!!!!!

At least you can practise your religion in the States or in the UK. We will actually tolerate it. Not the same the other way, particulalry in Saudi Arabia!!!!!!

I wish all the Muslims who hate the West would stay in their own miserable countries and be miserble there!!! Don't try to drag the rest of us down to your level.

wink
VoxVoxA1
1. AQ, one of your quotes about the growth of Islam says, "Most of the growth has come from immigration, but much of it is home-grown." That means that there is conversion, but that most of the growth of American Islam is the result of Muslims immigrating to the U.S. If there are 5 million U.S. Muslims and "most of them" are immigrants, then that means that there are LESS than 2.5 million American converts. In a nation of 280,000,000, that's not much of a driver of significant growth. Nuff said.
2. I love learning about the Moors in Spain, and I hate the fact that this largely black civilization ended due to the hatred of Europeans. However, their religious "tolerance" actually had economic reasons. The Caliphate exacted a tax on non-believers in their realm, and for that reason it was profitable to encourage Jews and Christians not to convert. That's why they didn't practice forced conversions.
3. Your Qur'anic quote, "There is no compulsion in religion," is out of context. Taken with the entirety of 2 Surah, all the sentence is saying is the simple fact that belief is inherently non-compelled. You can't believe something unless you believe it, and those who believe do so because they "see" how supposedly truthful and factual Islam is. Nothing in this passage has anything to do with invasion, conquest, force, or any of the things that "spreading by the sword" implies. Therefore, the quote has nothing to do with forcible spread of religion.
A ArabianQueenA2
"Where did you get this 90,000,000 number from. This is NOT true. Most Africans who died during the passage where en-route to the Carribean or Brazil, NOT the USA. Americas slave population was one of the few that were "home produced". So your "fact", is in fact a LIE"

http://americanstateterrorism.com/

The British arrived in Jamestown in 1607. By 1610 the intentional extermination of the native population was well underway.

America's contribution to "the most massive act of genocide in the history of the world" continued unabated to 1890. In December of that year the vengeful soldiers of the United States Seventh Cavalry used gattling guns and rifles to slaughter Lakota men, women and children at Wounded Knee, South Dakota.

More recently, with the unwitting sterilization of Indian women at hospitals in South Dakota, the FBI covert murder and terror campaign against the American Indian Movement people and the BIA covert and overt intimidation of Navajo people at Black Mountain "” the genocide can be said to have entered a more surreptitious phase.

And how many millions of Africans died as a result of slavery? All of them, actually. If they died in slavery they died of slavery too. Their lives were stolen from them before they were born.

The slave trade was "justified" by demented, inhuman racism, but it was motivated by material greed. It was a business, like everything else in America's bloody, ruthless history.

"The business of America is business" admitted President Calvin Coolidge in the 1920s. These days Presidents aren't quite so open about that fact.

But a truly evil corporate plutocracy rules this country today just as surely as it did then. And America's modern addiction to plundering the world has its historical roots in the theft of Indian land and the slavery of Africans. America's wealth owes its origins in large measure to generations of African blood, sweat and tears. And to the land stolen from its original inhabitants.

The evil, genocidal origins of America are the best explanation for the evil, genocidal nature of modern-day America. This country started out rotten as hell. It has improved domestically, but it has gotten much worse internationally. And the vast majority of Americans are still in total denial as to the true nature of the country they live in. It doesn't bode well for the future. You can't cure a disease if you won't even diagnose it honestly.

And America is one deeply diseased nation.

"We will fix the problem of Islam being the fastest growing religion in our nation!!!!! Blacks who convert to Islam did so based on a set of LIES perpetrated to go against, get even with "white" Christianity."

Yes and you speak for ALL Black Muslims and American Muslims, don't you? Including those I quoted at the top? Including Malcolm X? Muhammad Ali? Kareem Abdul-Jabbar? Art Blakey? Jermaine Jackson? Dwight Muhammad Qawi ? Eddie Mustapha Muhammad? Mustafa Hamsho? Akbar Muhammad? Mike Tyson? Hamdan Chris Eubank? Maryam Jameelah (Margaret Marcus, formerly a Jew)? Daniel Moore? Muhammad Marmaduke (William) Pickthall? Michael Wolfe? If all of those people saw the "wickedness" behind Islam, would they not have reconverted back to Christianity or Judaism?

"when they encountered facts on the real Islam, and how racist the Arabs are."

I'm Arab. Am I racist? I thought you maybe being black, would be against generalising and prejudice. Not ALL Arabs ARE racists.

"What a LIE!! Mohammeds family actually owned slaves!!!!"

Your point being? Did Prophet Muhammad himself own a slave? Muhammad's family were ignorant Pagans. In Arabia at the time, there were many bad factors such as idol worshipping, mistreatment of women, slavery, mistreatment of the poor, UNTIL Islam came. If our Prophet was such a racist then why did he free slaves? Consider the following story:

One of our beloved Prophet's best friends was a black Ethiopian from Africa. His name was Bilal Al-Habashi. Bilal used to be the slave of Prophet's Muhammad's Uncle Umayya, who was a Pagan. When one of our Prophet's close companions, Ammar, was caught during the early times of Islam when Muslims used to meet in secret in Mecca, Umayya ordered Bilal to flog him. Bilal refused to accept the order because he heard from Ammar during the little dialog that happened between Ammar and Umayya and some other Pagans that Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him said:

"People are as equal as the teeth of the comb." The old Arabic combs had equal in height and width teeth for combing the hair.

When Bilal refused the order, Umayya punished him severely by flogging him on his stomach while he was laying on his back tied with ropes on the very hot sand in the middle of the day in what we call today Saudi Arabia.

When our Prophet peace be upon him learned about this, he ordered for Bilal to be bought from Umayya. So Abu Baker, one of our Prophet's close companions and the first Caliph in Islam went to Umayya and requested to buy Bilal. Umayya refused at first and kept insisting on refusing to sell Bilal. Abu Baker may Allah Almighty be pleased with him and rest his soul and grant him Paradise went as high as 200 Dinars to buy Bilal. This was way too much money at that time. Bilal was immediately set free by our Prophet peace be upon him.

Later on, when the Muslims migrated from Mecca to Madina, and the first Mosque in Islam was built, our Prophet peace be upon him was Bilal's best friend at that time. He gave Bilal the job to be the caller for the daily prayers, which back then was one of the most honorable jobs to have. Bilal, the black Ethiopian from Africa, was one of the few best friends of our beloved Prophet that we know about from our Islamic History.

Let's look at another saying of the prophet:

A man once visited the Prophet's mosque in Madinah. There he saw a group of people sitting and discussing their faith together. Among them were Salman (who came from Persia), Suhayb who grew up in the Eastern Roman empire and was regarded as a Greek, and Bilal who was an African.

The man then said: "If the (Madinan) tribes of Aws and Khazraj support Muhammad, they are his people (that is, Arabs like him). But what are these people doing here?"

The Prophet became very angry when this was reported to him. Straightaway, he went to the mosque and summoned people to a Salat. He then addressed them saying:

"O people, know that the Lord and Sustainer is One. Your ancestor is one, your faith is one. The Arabism of anyone of you is not from your mother or father. It is no more than a tongue (language). Whoever speaks Arabic is an Arab."
(As quoted in 'Islam The Natural Way' by Abdul Wahid Hamid p. 125)"

Statement of the Universal Brotherhood in the Prophet's last sermon:

"O people, Remember that your Lord is One. An Arab has no superiority over a non-Arab nor a non-Arab has any superiority over an Arab; also a black has no superiority over white, nor a white has any superiority over black, except by piety and good action (Taqwa). Indeed the best among you is the one with the best character (Taqwa). Listen to me. Did I convey this to you properly? People responded, Yes. O messenger of Allah, The Prophet then said, then each one of you who is there must convey this to everyone not present. (Excerpt from the Prophet's Last Sermon as in Baihiqi)"

The prophet's condemnation of taking pride in one's ancestory:

The Prophet said: Let people stop boasting about their ancestors. One is only a pious believer or a miserable sinner. All men are sons of Adam, and Adam came from dust (Abu Dawud, Tirmidhi).

The Prophet's condemnation of Arab racial pride:

There are many hadith, which repeatedly strike on the Arab pride of 'jahiliyyah' (ignorance). Arabs before Islam used to look down upon others specially blacks. The Prophet repeatedly contrasted the believing Africans versus non-believing Arab nobles.

The Prophet said: You should listen to and obey your ruler even if he was an Ethiopian slave whose head looked like a raisin (Bukhari).

"There was a poster from the Sudan who saw some Saudis on an Arab show and they were calling Kofi Annan (sp) an abd, I'm sure you know what that is!!!!!! "

I'm glad you brought that up. The story is a woman who was angry at a statement made by Kofi Anan, so she called in on a show ranting and raving and she called Kofi Anan an "abd" (slave). Immediately after this happened, the religious scholars of the show condemned her and said "La Kibriya fil iman, in allaha alkabeer" which is an Arab/Muslim saying meaning "there are is no man higher than the other in our religion, for the Highest is Allah". She was cut off INSTANTLY.

"Many black converts to Islam are in prison or have been incarcerated at one time in their life!!"

Yes that's true, many found Islam in prisons. But your point is?

"I wish all the Muslims who hate the West would stay in their own miserable countries and be miserble there!!! Don't try to drag the rest of us down to your level."

Thank you.

Vox

Regardless of the immigration, after september 11th, the amount of conversions to Islam quadrupled, and it's STILL the fastest growing in the U.S.. Go here and here

Muslims religious tolerance wasn't only for economic reasons.

"Say: the truth from your Lord and let him who will believe and let him who will reject."(18:29)

As for the "There is no compulsion in religion," here is the whole verse.

256. Let there be no compulsion in religion: Truth stands out
clear from Error: whoever rejects Evil and believes in God hath
grasped the most trustworthy Hand-hold, that never breaks. And
God heareth and knoweth all things.

257. God is the Protector of those who have faith: From the depth of
darkness He will lead them forth into light. Of those who reject
faith the patrons are the Evil Ones; from light they will lead
them forth into the depths of darkness. They will be Companions of
the Fire, to dwell therein (For ever).

In verse 257, it speaks of those who "reject faith" and how they will be punished. This verse came IMMEDIATELY after 256, therefore the first verse WAS speaking of faith preaching and spreading. In Islam we are first judged by our intentions THEN our actions, so if Islam was to force itself on someone unwilling to convert, then he/she will not BE a true Muslim because their heart will not be converted. What's the point of force then?

"This day have I perfected your religion for you, completed My favour upon you, and have chosen for you Islam as your religion. " Quran 5:3


"Our religion teaches us to be intelligent. Be peaceful, be courteous, obey the law, respect everyone; but if someone puts his hand on you, send him to the cemetery. That's a good religion."
Malcolm X 1965 on Islam
I IndependentManB5
AQ,

I want to make this clear, I by no means hate you. You have been respectful, and if I have been dis-respectful, I apologize.

Prior to September 11, I had no ill feelings towards Islam. After seeing the reactions from many Muslims here and abroad, I have changed. Muslims as individuals that I encounter, I have no problem with. My former office mate is a Muslim from Bangladesh. Last week I just gave him the best reference that I could have. And I meant every word of it. He was most sincere in his beliefs and made no excuses for September 11. Truthfully I do not think I will ever have positive feelings towards Islam again. Is it wrong?? probably. But I am human and have my faults. I patronize gas (petrol) stations run by Arabs of whom I have a good raport(sp) with. So I am not some maniac racist who wants to harm Muslims...hardly. But on the other hand I cannot trust them.

I really want to believe what you say about your religion, I really do. But I can't.

I used to hate America myself. But I have changed. This is my home. I don't agree with my government quite often. But that doesn't mean I want to blow something up either.

Americans were NOT responsible entirely for the deaths of Africans during the passage. The Spanish were responsible for many more atrocities against the Native Indigenous populations than the British/Americans. WHat you are posting is anti-American propaganda. Is America perfect?? By no means, it has, like ALL nations, a rather dubious past. It's human nature I suppose. But America is NOT responsible for all the ills of the wrold today. I will admit to any atrocity committed by America. But I will not let go by, distorted information about my country, just as you are with your religion.

Gotta roll, more later........

wink
I IndependentManB5
AQ,

Here is a post from Nayabingi on TBWT:


A Brief History of Sudan

The African people of Sudan have been in a state of turmoil for over 2000 years. Originally my ancestors occupied what was present day Egypt. Around 650 A.D the Arabs invaded Africa and destroyed our civilizations and took millions of our people captives as slaves to the Mid East. In an attempt to escape slavery, our people moved Southwards as the Arabs kept up their conquest of forced slavery, islamization and arabization by the power of the sword. Those who converted to islam did not escape the brutal fire of jihad. In the late 1400s to the 1800s we suffered an another invasion by the Ottoman empire of Turkey. In the 1800s we were dealt another blow by the British who colonize Sudan. The south(Christian & African) was ruled separately from the North(Arab & Islamic). During the British rule the British opened schools, hospitals Universities, businesses, and military colleges in the Arab North, while the South was kept in total blackout. We had no schools or hospitals. The few schools that wer operating in 1930s wer missionary schools. Our Grandfathers were educated up to the 5th grade, just enough to read and write and become clerks and ther were told that was the end of school. Meanwhile the Arab north was being developed by the British at a terrfying pace. The British trained their armies with modern weapons and educated the masses of the North.
A ArabianQueenA2
I understand your anger. You lost 5000 people, in your position I'd be angry too. Although I don't believe it was the Arab or Islams fault for a few reasons. One of which I posted earlier, second is that no amount of money/intelligence could pull THAT off ESPECIALLY by a middle easterner. Those Saudi hijackers came from the worst families, completely uneducated let alone able to fly a plane and accurately slam into the pentagon and the world trade center. Most of the highly qualified pilots couldn't make that accurate shot, you think Saudi's can? On Saudi tv they interviewed the hijackers families and not one said they thought their sons had the audacity to perform that. I know you're thinking, "yeah right, Arab propaganda" but trust me, many would be proud to have "hurt America", so why would they deny? Muhammad Atta's father said he got a phone call from his son on September 13th telling his father he'll be "alright". Why would I believe the rantings of an old man? Well why not? For the people who condone this, he would've been glorified. 3rdly, with all the "civilisation" and "modernisation" of the USA, I hardly believe they would've missed this. I also strongly believe there's a strong Israeli connection, and Fox news actually ran the report, go here

Before your condoning of an Israeli state, know that it's a greater threat on the US then any Muslim/Arab country.

"We control America"

"Every time we do something you tell me America will do this and will do that . . . I want to tell you something very clear: Don't worry about American pressure on Israel. We, the Jewish people, control America, and the Americans know it." Israeli Prime Minister, Ariel Sharon, October 3, 2001.

But hey, let's suppose it was the Arabs who did it. You need to ask WHY. If someone is taking drugs, before condemning you need to know WHY they took it initially, otherwise your problem wont be solved. If you expect me to understand your pain at 5,000 deaths, why wont you understand the pain of Arabs? Still not convinced? Go here. Read more of why Arabs would go to such lengths. Do you honestly believe that people would hijack planes (if they did) and purposely kill themselves for no reason? Things like these are PROVOKED. And if you think 5,000 is a high number, how about 17,500 Lebanese and 1,800 Palestinians in the Sabra and Chatilla massacres? The 1,000,000 living in refugee camps, lacking food and water and education? Over 70% living under the poverty line? The 7,000,000 driven out of their homes? The house demolitions? The Dier Yasssin Massacre that called 254 women AND children which consisted of Israelis cutting up pregnent womens bellies? Sharafat Massacre, Kibya Massacre, Kafr Qasem Massacre, Al-Sammou' Massacre, the Sabra And Shatila Massacre, Oyon Qara Massacre, Al-Aqsa Mosque Massacre, the Ibrahimi Mosque Massacre, the Jabalia Massacre? The 85% that undergo torture? Assassinations of scholars, clerics, businessmen, philosophers and poets? The list is endless. All those have been FUNDED and given the GREEN LIGHT by the U.S. Yet Arabs are supposed to live and let live. As much as I understand you're despise of Arabs and Muslims, understand Arab despise of America.

Former Jewish Secretary of State Madeleine Albright called the death of 500,000 Iraqi children from starvation due to UN sanctions, "acceptable."

CAN YOU BELIEVE THIS?

At least in the WTC, no children were dying. Living in the US, you don't SEE what YOUR country is DOING overseas. You're completely oblivious to it. If you live a DAY in Palestinian shoes, I ASSURE you, you'd change your mind. I'm not asking you to hate your government, by all means be proud to be an American but at least have the decency to acknowledge it's terrorism. My government COMPLETELY lacks perfection too, but at least it's foreign policy hasn't hurt anyone. My heart goes out very much to those Sudanese people, but after what I've posted about those Arabs who fought for them, you saw what happened.

Why is it that when our Palestinian children our asked to draw something from their imagination, they draw tanks and dead bodies? Haven't they suffered enough? Isn't bad enough their lands been STOLEN? And when these children hate the opressor, they're "terrorists"?!

About Islam, believe it or not, has been the victim of herrendous misconception. I could EASILY judge Christianity by Hitler or the KKK who CLAIM to be following the bible, but I know for a fact that the bible doesn't incite that behaviour and these people aren't CHRISTIANS. Even the Grand Mufti of Saudi Arabia declared the attacks of September 11th "injustice, oppression and tyranny" . This is what OUR BOOK says:

"Verily, Allaah commands with justice and benevolence, and the giving of near relatives (in charity) and He forbids from obscene and evil deeds, and oppression. He cautions you, that perchance you may remember".

"We have indeed sent Messengers with clear proofs and we have revealed with them, the Book and the Balance, so that the people may abide by justice".

"O My servants, indeed I have forbidden oppression upon Myself and I have also made it forbidden amongst yourselves, hence do not oppress each other".

"O you who believe. Be of those who stand up to Allaah, as witnesses of justice. And let not the hatred of a people make you swerve away from justice towards them. Verily, be just and that is closer to piety".

"For had it not been that Allah checks one set of people by means of another, monasteries, churches, synagogues and mosques, wherein the name of Allah is mentioned much, would surely have been pulled down. Indeed Allah will help those who help His (cause). Truly Allah is All strong, All mighty"

"And fight in the way of Allah those who fight you. But do not transgress the limits. Truly Allah loves not the transgressors"

"Allah does not forbid you to deal justly and kindly with those who fought not against you on account of religion, nor drove you out of your homes. Indeed, Allah loves those who deal with equity"

"...If anyone killed a person not in retaliation for murder or to spread mischief in the land, it would be as if he killed the whole of mankind. And (likewise) if anyone saved a life, it would be as if he saved the whole of mankind"

What part of my religion do you find terrorism? Read the Quran, I just ask you to READ IT before making any judgement.

In conclusion, if you're angry at 5,000 deaths, I understand. Why wont you understand mine?

----------------------

"This day have I perfected your religion for you, completed My favour upon you, and have chosen for you Islam as your religion. " Quran 5:3


"Our religion teaches us to be intelligent. Be peaceful, be courteous, obey the law, respect everyone; but if someone puts his hand on you, send him to the cemetery. That's a good religion."
Malcolm X 1965 on Islam
I IndependentManB5
quote:
Originally posted by ArabianQueen:
I understand your anger. You lost 5000 people, in your position I'd be angry too. Although I don't believe it was the Arab or Islams fault for a few reasons. One of which I posted earlier, second is that no amount of money/intelligence could pull THAT off _ESPECIALLY_ by a middle easterner. Those Saudi hijackers came from the worst families, completely uneducated let alone able to fly a plane and accurately slam into the pentagon and the world trade center. Most of the highly qualified pilots couldn't make that accurate shot, you think Saudi's can? On Saudi tv they interviewed the hijackers families and not one said they thought their sons had the audacity to perform that. I know you're thinking, "yeah right, Arab propaganda" but trust me, many would be proud to have "hurt America", so why would they deny? Muhammad Atta's father said he got a phone call from his son on September 13th telling his father he'll be "alright". Why would I believe the rantings of an old man? Well why not? For the people who condone this, he would've been glorified. 3rdly, with all the "civilisation" and "modernisation" of the USA, I hardly believe they would've missed this. I also strongly believe there's a strong Israeli connection, and Fox news actually ran the report, go http://www.americanstateterrorism.com/9-11/FoxNewsIsraeliSpying.html


AQ, I agree that the US government was caught sleeping at the wheel. They let us down. But I do not believe for one nanosecond that they were responsible for what happened on September 11as far as who the perpetrators were. They were Islamic extremists whom I have not heard much condemnation from the mainstream Muslim community. About the Klan (Kowards): most mainstream Christian organizations speak out against them. Yes, I realize the connection between the Catholic Church and Hitler, in-excusable. But now many Muslim groups praise Hitler!!! Including Hamas, Islamic Jihad. I will say this: the next attack on our soil will not bide well for Muslims in the United States!!! Trust me on that one!!!! I'm not condoning it, I'm just saying what will happen!!!!

quote:

Before your condoning of an Israeli state, know that it's a greater threat on the US then any Muslim/Arab country.

_"We control America"

"Every time we do something you tell me America will do this and will do that . . . I want to tell you something very clear: Don't worry about American pressure on Israel. We, the Jewish people, control America, and the Americans know it." Israeli Prime Minister, Ariel Sharon, October 3, 2001. _


I know these comments are true. This does gather sympathy to the Israeli cause here, even amongst supporters. But, I will trust the Israelis before any Arab Muslim!!!! I guess for me, they are by far the lesser of the evils!!!!!!

quote:

But hey, let's suppose it was the Arabs who did it. You need to ask _WHY_. If someone is taking drugs, before condemning you need to know WHY they took it initially, otherwise your problem wont be solved. If you expect me to understand your pain at 5,000 deaths, why wont you understand the pain of Arabs? Still not convinced? Go _https://www.africanamerica.org/groupee/forums?a=tpc&s=60260642&f=79160213&m=4566004021_. Read more of why Arabs would go to such lengths. Do you honestly believe that people would hijack planes (if they did) and purposely kill themselves for no reason? Things like these are _PROVOKED_. And if you think 5,000 is a high number, how about 17,500 Lebanese and 1,800 Palestinians in the Sabra and Chatilla massacres? The 1,000,000 living in refugee camps, lacking food and water and education? Over 70% living under the poverty line? The 7,000,000 driven out of their homes? The house demolitions? The Dier Yasssin Massacre that called 254 women AND children which consisted of Israelis cutting up pregnent womens bellies? Sharafat Massacre, Kibya Massacre, Kafr Qasem Massacre, Al-Sammou' Massacre, the Sabra And Shatila Massacre, Oyon Qara Massacre, Al-Aqsa Mosque Massacre, the Ibrahimi Mosque Massacre, the Jabalia Massacre? The 85% that undergo torture? Assassinations of scholars, clerics, businessmen, philosophers and poets? The list is endless. All those have been FUNDED and given the GREEN LIGHT by the U.S. Yet Arabs are supposed to live and let live. As much as I understand you're despise of Arabs and Muslims, understand Arab despise of America.


No, let's not suppose. IT WAS THE ARABS!!!! What you just did is just re-enforce why people like me do not trust Arabs/Muslims. You just tried to justify what they did!!!!! I can go back to TBWT abd grab posts from Sudanese MUSLIMS who were describing the horror that the Arab Muslims are committing right now!!!!!! Islams' track record is no where near clean!!! The Ottoman Turks were a brutal imperialistic bunch!!!!! How did Islam spread to Iran, India, and further East and throughout North Africa and into Spain???? BY FORCE and DOMINATION. It was an Empire of sorts.

I agree that most Americans are completely oblivious, not only with world events, but what's happening in their own country!!!!!

quote:

_Former Jewish Secretary of State Madeleine Albright called the death of 500,000 Iraqi children from starvation due to UN sanctions, "acceptable." _

CAN YOU BELIEVE THIS?


Again, you are blaming us for the plight of Iragi childern when the blame shoild focus on the true villian....SADDAM HUSSEIN!!!!! Why can't folks like you except the real blame for things that are wrong???? It's just like the left here, always blaming someone else put the person in the mirror.

quote:

At least in the WTC, no children were dying. Living in the US, you don't SEE what YOUR country is DOING overseas. You're completely oblivious to it. If you live a DAY in Palestinian shoes, I ASSURE you, you'd change your mind. I'm not asking you to hate your government, by all means be proud to be an American but at least have the decency to acknowledge it's terrorism. My government COMPLETELY lacks perfection too, but at least it's foreign policy hasn't hurt anyone. My heart goes out very much to those Sudanese people, but after what I've posted about those Arabs who fought for them, you saw what happened.


Are you kidding??? Children died in this massacre, Many lost BOTH their parents!!!!! The only thing these people did was to go to wrok that day. Again, if your people have a gripe against the US government, you sure set back your cause by murdering innocent people who have nothing to do with the foreign policy of the US. You also alienated people who WERE somewhat sympathetic to your cause. FOREVER!!!!


quote:

Why is it that when our Palestinian children our asked to draw something from their imagination, they draw tanks and dead bodies? Haven't they suffered enough? Isn't bad enough their lands been STOLEN? And when these children hate the opressor, they're "terrorists"?!


Again, I used to have sympathy here. I do not anymore. Why can't they go live in Jordan?? Why did Jordan kill 100,000 of them in 1970??? Why can't they go live in Syria, Lebanon??? Israel is not compeltely right here, I agree. I have had problems with Israel in the past.

quote:

About Islam, believe it or not, has been the victim of herrendous misconception. I could EASILY judge Christianity by Hitler or the KKK who CLAIM to be following the bible, but I know for a fact that the bible doesn't incite that behaviour and these people aren't CHRISTIANS. Even the Grand Mufti of Saudi Arabia declared the attacks of September 11th "injustice, oppression and tyranny" . This is what OUR BOOK says:

"Verily, Allaah commands with justice and benevolence, and the giving of near relatives (in charity) and He forbids from obscene and evil deeds, and oppression. He cautions you, that perchance you may remember".

"We have indeed sent Messengers with clear proofs and we have revealed with them, the Book and the Balance, so that the people may abide by justice".

"O My servants, indeed I have forbidden oppression upon Myself and I have also made it forbidden amongst yourselves, hence do not oppress each other".

"O you who believe. Be of those who stand up to Allaah, as witnesses of justice. And let not the hatred of a people make you swerve away from justice towards them. Verily, be just and that is closer to piety".

"For had it not been that Allah checks one set of people by means of another, monasteries, churches, synagogues and mosques, wherein the name of Allah is mentioned much, would surely have been pulled down. Indeed Allah will help those who help His (cause). Truly Allah is All strong, All mighty"

"And fight in the way of Allah those who fight you. But do not transgress the limits. Truly Allah loves not the transgressors"

"Allah does not forbid you to deal justly and kindly with those who fought not against you on account of religion, nor drove you out of your homes. Indeed, Allah loves those who deal with equity"

_"...If anyone killed a person not in retaliation for murder or to spread mischief in the land, it would be as if he killed the whole of mankind. And (likewise) if anyone saved a life, it would be as if he saved the whole of mankind"_

What part of my religion do you find terrorism? Read the Quran, I just ask you to READ IT before making any judgement.

In conclusion, if you're angry at 5,000 deaths, I understand. Why wont you understand mine?


I do not think Islam has been mis-conceived. I get pissed off when I read in the liberal press that it is a "religion of peace". What a lie!!!!

I cannot except Muhammed as a profit of God. I think it's the intent of Islam to take over the planet. As long as I'm alive, they will NOT take over the United States. I will die making sure that does NOT happen!!!!!


quote:

"Our religion teaches us to be intelligent. Be peaceful, be courteous, obey the law, respect everyone; but if someone puts his hand on you, send him to the cemetery. That's a good religion."
Malcolm X 1965 on Islam


Yup, that sums up my view of Islam in a nutshell!!!!

Add Reply

Post

Membership Required

We're sorry. You must be signed in to continue. Sign In or Register
×
Are you sure you want to remove from your Block List?
×
Loading...
×
When you block a person, they can no longer invite you to a private message or post to your profile wall. Replies and comments they make will be collapsed/hidden by default. Finally, you'll never receive email notifications about content they create or likes they designate for your content.
Note: if you proceed, you will no longer be following .
×
Advanced Search
Advanced Search
Link copied to your clipboard.
×