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I found this to be a very interesting letter that would allow those of you, that do not understand the truth about Islam, to see the new divide within the religion.

Note: Blacks are the majority followers of Islam in this country and the blacks in Western Africa worship this as well. Arabs represent only 30% of this religion. This is pertenent to this site...

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Why The Row Over Anti-Hadith but

Silence On Quran Illiteracy?

"excerpts from "Open Letter To The Nation's Leaders And Intellectuals" written by Dr. Kassim Ahmad from Malaysia."

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The time may have come for us to do a final reckoning with ourselves, our people, and the international community. Never in the history of mankind have we faced such total collapse as we do today.... Where has morality gone? Where on the face of this earth is a group or groups of moral human beings?... There is a limit to human endurance of suffering without protest; that limit has been passed!
When a group of our people in Malaysia wants to bring back the Quran to the hearts of the populace today, this is the significance and the implication. For a thousand years, Muslims have strayed so far away from God's teachings and lived in such ignorance that they are powerless to destroy the evil perpetrated before their eyes. Western civilization too has strayed far away from the teachings of the prophets, including Moses and Jesus.... Both East and West must return to God's teachings, particularly the Quran, His final, complete, perfect, and detailed scripture.
Alas, when Jema'ah Al-Quran Malaysia (Quranic Society of Malaysia or JAM) was formed precisely for this mission, a number of our leaders and intellectuals leapt up and protested. "Anti-Hadith group! Anti-Hadith group!" they screamed in accusation. What? Bringing the Quran to the people so that they would understand, this is anti-hadith? So, letting the people remain Quran illiterate, as in the past five hundred years in Malaysia, is acceptable?
I write this open letter to the nation's leaders and intellectuals in all communities in the hope that we can study this matter calmly and rationally, without hurling accusations and threats and creating an atmosphere of animosity and tension. It is with a sense of responsibility and humility that I ask this, for it is not a matter involving religious ritual, but one of life and death for our people.
In 1986, this writer published a book, Hadis - Satu Penilaian Semula (its English translation, Prophetic Traditions, A Re-evaluation will also be published, God willing) with the intention stated above. Many of the hadith compiled by Bukhari, Muslim and others that we use today, according to this writer's study, are in conflict with the teachings of the Quran. I give instances in three areas:
One, adulation of or unquestioning acceptance of the teachings of a leader. Since this principle was instilled, Muslims have feared others besides God; they have been afraid to question leaders. Hence they became slaves of the leaders, whereas the Quran exhorts us to free ourselves of all forms of subservience, except to the One God....
Two, prohibiting the use of the rational mind. Generally, Muslims are taught not to use their minds in religious matters. This teaching is spread through some false hadith. Purportedly, the use of the mind in religious matters would lead us astray. If the mind may not be used in religious matters, why may it be used in other matters? Are religious and secular matters to be kept separate? Indeed, this is what has paralyzed the intellects of Muslims in comparison with others. The minds of Muslims have been dead for a thousand years, killed by these false hadith. On the contrary, the teaching of the Quran give the mind a noble place. God deems human beings who do not use their minds worse than animals! (7:179) God bars those who do not use their minds from the fold of the faithful. (10:100)
Three, suppression of creativity. It is evident that for a long time, Muslims have not been creative. Since the thirteenth century when Islamic civilization began to decline, modern scientific discoveries and technological inventions have been made by others, particularly those who hold that human beings may know and may create progress. In the early days, Muslims were highly creative because they adhered to the Quran's dynamic teachings, which urge Muslims to work and strive for success in this world and the next. But since they turned to the teachings of the hadith, their creativity declined, for these false hadith teach resignation to taqdir (divine pre-destination) or fatalism. Purportedly, good and evil are from God. The Malay proverb, "If you are fated to gain a cupak (a small measure of rice) you will not gain a gantang (a big measure of rice)," reflects this world-view.
All three teachings from certain false hadith are clearly in conflict with teachings in the Quran. The Islamic education system from the village pondok (rural religious seminary) right up to the Azhar university, based on rote learning and unquestioning acceptance, teaches that hadith cannot possibly be in conflict with the Quran. This would be true of hadith that are really from the Prophet. But history tells us that the hadith compilations by Bukhari and others were made between 200 and 250 years after the Prophet's death. These compilations are the responsibility of Bukhari and others, not of the Prophet. The Prophet's responsibility as God's messenger was to convey the Quran....
Some religious leaders label as apostates those who adhere to the Quran, accusing them of being anti-hadith. According to certain hadith, apostates are punished by being put to death. Are they not aware that leaders of Christian Church during the Middle Ages in Europe also put to death apostates from Christianity? Thus, this is not punishment under God's law, but one from the age of ignorance which entered the hadith through the Torah (Old Testament), which had been tampered with. (Refer to Deut. 13:5-10) Do our people know that according to the teachings of the Quran, one is given full freedom to choose one's religion? Thus, killing someone for religion is totally forbidden by God and is a great sin.
The study of the hadith has been developed into a complex one in Islam from the 9th to the 15th century. The early hadith scholars established a method of sifting out the weak hadith and retaining only the genuine ones. However, we must realize that knowledge develops, and one of the conditions for development is freedom to criticize. No philosopher, scientist or scholar is free of weaknesses, and one of the ways of overcoming weaknesses is through scientific criticism. We have seen the weaknesses of the method used by the early hadith scholars in the existence of many hadith which are in conflict with the Quran in Sahih Bukhari (Bukhari's compilation of hadith that are regarded as genuine) and others.
Now we need to review the definition of sahih or authentic hadith. Does it mean confirmed as genuine only on the basis of isnad (chain of narrators) or also on the basis of matan (meaning of text)? Between isnad and matan, which is the more important? As we are talking about the sayings and doings of the Prophet, the term sahih must be based on matan which is in line with the Quran, for the sayings and doings of the Prophet Muhammad could not possibly be in conflict with the teaching of the Quran.
It is clear why we need to do a re-evaluation. Every Muslim believes in the Quran and puts it above all other teachings. Our problem is the Quran-illiteracy of Muslims whose language is not Arabic, and of Arab Muslims whose language is Arabic. They do not know which of the hadith taught to them are in conflict with the teachings of the Quran and which are not. Many false teachings have been slipped into the hadith by foes of Islam in those days (the Jews, the Christians, the Persians) to undermine Islam from within. If Muslims wish to be great again, and surely they do wish it, re-evaluating the hadith on the basis of the Quran and understanding and practicing the teachings of the Quran are unavoidable conditions.
Certainly, when this re-evaluation is carried out, certain changes and adjustments will need to be made in our beliefs and practices. As these changes are made to correct and improve, we need not fear making them. In fact, we should welcome them. What we should fear is going on practicing wrong traditions after knowing them to be so.
But these few changes and adjustments involve major matters:
One, we must reject adulation of leaders. We must bow only to God. All human beings are equal--none higher or lower than the other. This will rekindle the spirit of jihad (struggling in God's cause) among Muslims....
Two, we must reject taqlid (un-questioning acceptance of human authority). We must use our minds to gain knowledge. We read all books, but critically. We learn from all teachers, but without forgetting our critical faculty. In this way, we shall inherit only the good from our ancestors; the bad we shall cast aside. Thus will the Islamic intellect blossom again.
Three, we must reject fatalism. Our fates as individuals and as a nation is shaped by ourselves, not by taqdir (divine predestination). The law is: those who strive will attain; those who do not strive will not. Man cannot know his capacity until he tries. The Omniscient God knows everything from beginning to end, but man does not know what God knows. This change will revive the creativity of Muslims; and science, philosophy, art and technology will bloom again in the Islamic world.
These are the three major changes we must make as individuals and as a people when we re-evaluate the hadith on the basis of the Quran and when we return to the Quran. Is this impossible? I think not. The best ways of making these changes can be discussed and decided by our leaders and intellectuals.
As we have seen, the anti-hadith allegations hurled at us are the result of ignorance or misunderstanding on the part of the people and a handful of leaders who fear for their position and authority. These can be overcome through sincere and fair discussion. We all declare ourselves to be Muslims. What, then, prevents us from holding talks to find an amicable solution based on truth? If both sides are sincere, adhere to the spirit of brotherhood among the faithful, and base the talks on the Quran, as God commands, there is no reason why we cannot solve this problem.
We have no intention of toppling the ulama (religious scholars or leaders) or wresting away their positions. We only want the Muslims, including the leaders and the intellectuals, in our country to adhere truly to the Quran.
Some claim that this problem need not be re-opened as it was solved long ago. These people are like ostriches, burying their heads in the sand and saying there is nothing to worry about since they can see nothing! Islamic communities all over the world as well as in our country are bogged down with problems they cannot overcome. Why? Because we live in darkness. How could we see in the dark? We need to get out of the darkness by using a bright torch. That torch is the Quran.
As I stated in the beginning of this letter, the time has come for Muslims and mankind in general to return to God's teachings. Our society, both national and international, is hit by crisis after crisis; the only way we can overcome these is by returning to the teachings of the Omniscient God, i.e., the Quran. Such is the importance of the Quran to us and to the world.
"I believe in the brotherhood of man, all men, but I don't believe in brotherhood with anybody who doesn't want brotherhood with me. I believe in treating people right, but I'm not going to waste my time trying to treat somebody right who doesn't know how to return the treatment." Al-Hajj Malik El-Shabazz (aka Malcolm X)
Original Post

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FYI...
There is a Religious & Spirituality Forum.


I too am tired of the mis-information about Islam. I studied it and 'associated' with sunni, Warith D. Muhammad African-American Muslims while in college... went to Jummah at the (International) Islamic Center, etc. Very good people, BTW.

Here is part of and argument on JESUS & CHRISTIANITY where I offered and Islamic perspective. Come to find out, you posted on there or at least someone with the same name. It appears you (or this person) were a registered member here before I was, BTW.
Anyway smart-aSS!!

Your post was so thoroughly "preachin'" that, if you wanted to dispell some myths about Islam, you still have a long way to go because I don't see how you post did that.

I.E. Your post sounded like a sermon.... and.... basically.... you're preachin' to the choir!!

After reading that, I would not know what Hadiths or passages from Quran that are at issue and how your Islamic interpretation differs from what is promoted in the West/U.S. I'll agree with you (I think), denigrating Islam and its teachings are a growth industry esp. since the "terror" attacks.
Khalilallah

The ideas presented in this article are why I as a Muslim, l have learned to stay as far away from most Arabs and others who grew up in these so called "Islamic" environments. In my opinion, it is the Arab cultural influence has ruined the Islamic community, and put us in the almost helpless position we are in today, because people have strayed from following the Quran and the true example and have replaced Quranic knowledge with culture and custom. I am in an area in which the majority of muslims are Arab and South Asian, and it has gotten to the point where I don't even go to jummah or the masjid anymore. I can't stomach being surrounded by such hypocrisy and lack of true Islamic knowledge or more importantly, true Islamic character. Every group tries to make you conform to their cultural version of what they feel as real Islam and shove it down your throat. The sad state of affairs of the ummah today Sadly, I feel that the only way I can stay a true Muslim where I am is by not associating with most people who claim Islam as their faith.
Yes, I am proud to be a smart-ass, thanks.

Uh, by the way, I was not preaching. Dr. Kassim Ahmad from Malaysia was preaching.

You really don't read people's original posts do you?

Well, the point is that there are many hadiths that are contrary to the Qur'an or the spirit of the Qur'an. In fact, in arguements on other sites, people were using Hadith, words of man, above that of the Qur'an. They were not arguing with me, but with the word of Allah.

For instance, what purpose would stoning a pregnant female adulturer have? Stoning is not in the Qur'an, women and men are to be treated equally and in the process there is the creation of orphans. You see it is counter-productive and in my view, evil.

Such notions such as this and others exposed in the media gives a false perception of others who believes that the Qur'an is indeed superior to the hadiths.

It's nice that we can agree with each other time to time.

By the way, are you really anti-Islamic? Tell the truth. Smile

"I believe in the brotherhood of man, all men, but I don't believe in brotherhood with anybody who doesn't want brotherhood with me. I believe in treating people right, but I'm not going to waste my time trying to treat somebody right who doesn't know how to return the treatment." Al-Hajj Malik El-Shabazz (aka Malcolm X)
quote:
Uh, by the way, I was not preaching. Dr. Kassim Ahmad from Malaysia was preaching.

That was my point. I knew and read who the content was attributed to. Didn't mean to say you wrote it.

Nevertheless, it was a sermon and there are few regular members here that are Islam-o-phobes. That was my point.

*----*----*----*----*----*----*----*----*----*----*----*
Those who profess to favor freedom, and yet depreciate agitation,
are men who want rain without thunder and lightning.
-- Frederick Douglass
Damn... Khalilallah!!

Why are you talking about Hadiths that are irrelevant to the whole "terrorist" issue that you claim is you reasoning for posting the "sermon"???

Why don't you show the Quranic references to the relation between Muslims, Jews and Christians? Talk about the "People Of The Book" and the notion that Muslims "shouldn't take friends" with those of those other faiths. Speak on how Islam is the final revelation... Ibrahim as the partriarch of all three religions...

...Something actually RELEVANT!!!!

What's Stones gotta do with it!? Confused
Nmaginate

I think his point was that so called muslims adhere more to hadith than the actual message of the Quran, therefore such acts like stoning a woman for adultry or using mass murder (Sept 11) stems from these people justifying their actions by false or misinterpreted hadith. The same goes with these religious ediths that Bin Ladan and others issue to kill Americans and the like.
It seems that your hatred is showing, not surprised at all.

You don't find what I say as relevant, so what. Move on, go ahead, you can do it now. Move along.

Being stoned has a lot to do with something, it as being one of the hadiths that is clearly wrong. But you don't see it that way do you? You are more concerned with Christians and Jews when this topic is clearly in reference to black muslims here in America... Nothing wrong with that, can not fault you for that at all. Yet, I am more than sure your attacks Nmaginate is religous.

"I believe in the brotherhood of man, all men, but I don't believe in brotherhood with anybody who doesn't want brotherhood with me. I believe in treating people right, but I'm not going to waste my time trying to treat somebody right who doesn't know how to return the treatment." Al-Hajj Malik El-Shabazz (aka Malcolm X)
"I found this to be a very interesting letter that would allow those of you, that do not understand the truth about Islam, to see the new divide within the religion."

"Since there are many issues being brought up here about terrorism and Islam in general. I thought that it would be appropriate."

I guess I see your point WhatzGoingOn... But we all know that in the American media some of the main mis-perceptions or ill-will towards "Islam" is the perceived enmity against Christians and Jews. The whole "Infidel", Jihad, Holy War thing...

I was more in the mind of that. But I guess the strict beliefs in practices like 'stoning' have some relevance but I don't think that ranks in the minds of people as the cause of terrorism or the teachings that proffer it - i.e. terrorism against the West.
Hey,there's some perspectives I've always wanted to get from the muslim portion of the black family, I've asked bros. before yet never recieved an answer or people would just walk away,but you seem like good guys so I figured I'd ask you:

1)What is your assessment on "Destruction of the Black Civilazation" by Chanceller Williams in which much of the blame(or at least a good portion)is attributed to islam?

2)What is your opinions on the enslavement that persist even today of our african brethen by muslims? And do you feel caught in the middle?

3)What is your opinions of muslims seemingly distancing themselvs from the N.O.I. after 9/11?

4)I've read exerpts the koran where mohammed is refered to as being white,but i've also hear black muslims say he was black,which is it? And if he is black,elaborate...how did you come to this conclusion? thanks.

______________________________
May the high praises of YAH be in their mouth and a two edged sword in their hand, To execute vengence on the peoples;to bind their kings with chains,and their nobles in shackles of iron,to carry out the sentence written against them.
This is the glory of the saints (psalms149)
Uh, stoning was an example since there was a Nigerian woman being convicted and sentence to such a fate. It is a clear example of the flaws within Islam.

You asked for an example and you got one. satisfied, if not, oh well. Your Islamaphobia is strong, come on, let it out, your amongst friends...

"I believe in the brotherhood of man, all men, but I don't believe in brotherhood with anybody who doesn't want brotherhood with me. I believe in treating people right, but I'm not going to waste my time trying to treat somebody right who doesn't know how to return the treatment." Al-Hajj Malik El-Shabazz (aka Malcolm X)
If one reads the Quran and only the Quran, there isn't a lot of substance to any enmity towards Jews and especially Christians, unless one takes an isolated line from the Quran without regards to the context of the line.

It is from hadith that most of the ideas of so called jihad or violence against unbelievers comes from, and in my opinion, these hadith have more to do with Arab culture and political situations then (and now) than following the examples and sayings of the Prohhet Muhammed.

But I can see your point in how people simply reading the article could be confused about how this article relates to terriorism.
quote:
You asked for an example and you got one. satisfied, if not, oh well. Your Islamaphobia is strong, come on, let it out, your amongst friends...

You keep talking about stoning when you seemed to imply that this sermon was to help address misunderstanding about Al-Islam as it relates to Terrorism. So, I'm waiting for you to do that.

To me, the article/sermon you posted equates to Muslim/Islamic housekeeping - something that is an "in-house" thing. I would say the same for Christians. I can hardly see how you post on stoning and the article really address misperceptions that members here have about Islam because I regard most posters here as very informed.
"Since there are many issues being brought up here about terrorism and Islam in general."


Key words on Islam in general...

"I believe in the brotherhood of man, all men, but I don't believe in brotherhood with anybody who doesn't want brotherhood with me. I believe in treating people right, but I'm not going to waste my time trying to treat somebody right who doesn't know how to return the treatment." Al-Hajj Malik El-Shabazz (aka Malcolm X)
1)What is your assessment on "Destruction of the Black Civilazation" by Chanceller Williams in which much of the blame(or at least a good portion)is attributed to islam?

How can the black civilization be destroyed by Islam, when it is clear that colonization attributed to it. The Islamic world was very advanced up until the industrial revolution. In fact America would of been left behind if it were not for an immigrant who stole and brought plans for such technology here. So to blame religion, I can not agree with that, even if I have yet to read the book.



2)What is your opinions on the enslavement that persist even today of our african brethen by muslims? And do you feel caught in the middle?

What is your opinion of the black Africans being enslaved by other black Africans? Child slavery, drugging children and using them for war? What about the mass genocide attept in Rwanda? Sleeping with virgins as young as two months to stop AIDS?

Answer those questions.

I will now respond to your question, slavery is not permitted according to the Qur'an. So should what you say is true, then they are sinners. The Bible however demands that the slave be obediant to their master, so...



3)What is your opinions of muslims seemingly distancing themselvs from the N.O.I. after 9/11?

The majority of followers of Islam are not members of this organization. Racism is not permitted and should anyone decide to distance themselves from this group and become orthodox or shiite, then that is good. Should they decide to be another religion, then so be it, they will be judged in the final days.


4)I've read exerpts the koran where mohammed is refered to as being white,but i've also hear black muslims say he was black,which is it? And if he is black,elaborate...how did you come to this conclusion? thanks.

Uh, he is a Arab. Nothing more and nothing less. One of the things about Islam is the rejection of images. He did not wish to be worshipped as a diety. So for me to sit here and debate his skin color is truly elementary and pointless.

Now what is your view in regards to the following:

1 Samuel 15:3
'Now go and strike Amalek and utterly destroy all that he has, and do not spare him; but put to death both man and woman, child and infant, ox and sheep, camel and donkey.'"

"I believe in the brotherhood of man, all men, but I don't believe in brotherhood with anybody who doesn't want brotherhood with me. I believe in treating people right, but I'm not going to waste my time trying to treat somebody right who doesn't know how to return the treatment." Al-Hajj Malik El-Shabazz (aka Malcolm X)
quote:
"Since there are many issues being brought up here about terrorism and Islam in general."


Key words on Islam in general...
I don't think we need to have an English class here but you used the CONJUNCTION - "AND" so whatever comes before it is of equal and perhaps greater importance than what comes after it. So the Key Word is not "in general"...

Your really ridiculous because you were posing this as an informational thread about Islam and now you are saying you're only gonna talk about certain aspects of it because you would rather be defensive than open in sharing your Islamic views about what you have admittedly said you were going to speak on or what the impetus was for your thread here.

You will have to learn when and when not to be confrontational.
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EDIT:
Really, all I'm asking you is for your perspectives on terrorism and the misperceptions in the West about Islam because of it and so on. And actually I'm already aware of and agree with what WhatzGoingOn said about Arab culture being confused with pure Islam and the dilemma of African-American Muslims brotherhood with Arab and International Muslim at the masjid[sp].

I wanting a refreshed view of what your ideas might be since I am removed from the Muslim brotherhood and would not classify myself in anyway as an authority on Islam, though I know something about it and "Black" Muslims to a degree.
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BTW...
Coordinating Conjunctions
    Coordinating conjunctions can join either (I) independent clauses or (II) equal grammatical parts of sentences.


[This message was edited by Nmaginate on August 19, 2003 at 05:46 PM.]
Nmaginate, get over it. You are losing in the other threads and your trying to seek redemption here, you won't.

I stand by my reasons for having it here and it shall stay, read it and move on.

"I believe in the brotherhood of man, all men, but I don't believe in brotherhood with anybody who doesn't want brotherhood with me. I believe in treating people right, but I'm not going to waste my time trying to treat somebody right who doesn't know how to return the treatment." Al-Hajj Malik El-Shabazz (aka Malcolm X)
quote:
You are losing in the other threads and your trying to seek redemption here, you won't.

Losing??? Losing what Khalilallah??

Who is judging the Winners & Losers on AA.org today? Tell me... I'd like to know what I'm losing or why and when this all became some game like that.

*----*----*----*----*----*----*----*----*----*----*----*
Those who profess to favor freedom, and yet depreciate agitation,
are men who want rain without thunder and lightning.
-- Frederick Douglass
quote:
Originally posted by Khalilallah:
1)What is your assessment on "Destruction of the Black Civilazation" by Chanceller Williams in which much of the blame(or at least a good portion)is attributed to islam?

How can the black civilization be destroyed by Islam, when it is clear that colonization attributed to it. The Islamic world was very advanced up until the industrial revolution. In fact America would of been left behind if it were not for an immigrant who stole and brought plans for such technology here. So to blame religion, I can not agree with that, even if I have yet to read the book.

I believe he was referring to the waves of attacks on Nubia and N. Africa that lead to the current occupation we see today.



2)What is your opinions on the enslavement that persist even today of our african brethen by muslims? And do you feel caught in the middle?

What is your opinion of the black Africans being enslaved by other black Africans? Child slavery, drugging children and using them for war? What about the mass genocide attept in Rwanda? Sleeping with virgins as young as two months to stop AIDS?

Answer those questions.

Good points,but what I'm trying to find out is. after all the talk and animosity about whites and there roles in past and current crimes to our people (and rightfully so)why total silence in regaurds to arabs past and present crimes against our people...and what's with the attitude this is a discussion board is'nt it ,so why do you seem (at least to me)for being asked your views Confused

I will now respond to your question, slavery is not permitted according to the Qur'an. So should what you say is true, then they are sinners. The Bible however demands that the slave be obediant to their master, so...

Thank you and yes it does in certain instances such as working of debts,divine retribution,etc.


3)What is your opinions of muslims seemingly distancing themselvs from the N.O.I. after 9/11?

The majority of followers of Islam are not members of this organization. Racism is not permitted and should anyone decide to distance themselves from this group and become orthodox or shiite, then that is good. Should they decide to be another religion, then so be it, they will be judged in the final days.

Again thank you.


4)I've read exerpts the koran where mohammed is refered to as being white,but i've also hear black muslims say he was black,which is it? And if he is black,elaborate...how did you come to this conclusion? thanks.

Uh, he is a Arab. Nothing more and nothing less. One of the things about Islam is the rejection of images. He did not wish to be worshipped as a diety. So for me to sit here and debate his skin color is truly elementary and pointless.

Well according to sahih bukhari(sp?)1.63, 2.122,and 4.744 it refers to him being a white man, and some other passages I can't recall, but what I wanted to know was if black Muslims were privlige to some info I was'nt aware of, and if so could you might share,but since you don't care either way I'll save that question for some one else.

Now what is your view in regards to the following:

1 Samuel 15:3
'Now go and strike Amalek and utterly destroy all that he has, and do not spare him; but put to death both man and woman, child and infant, ox and sheep, camel and donkey.'"

Simple,I'm glad someone asked me that, YAH knows all,he knows how every single event will or would unfold. I know the slaying of women seems cowardly and whoever heard of evil chidren...what did they do right ? Well children grow to be adults and women bare children(as well as commit evil deeds themselves)so you have look at it from YAH'S perspective that there could very well be and sometimes are entire groups of people that just can't continue to exist further. He never gives you more than you can endure but if certain families,nations regions etc. continue to grow and spread then you very well might. Small evils grow like cancers and eventually must be removed for the greater good. In other words,x amount of people could grow in numbers and commit genocide or whatever on a global scale in which case everyone would sit around asking "why did'nt god do something"blah blah blah "how could god permit such evil in the world"blah blah blah.But YAH in his infinite wisdom did...but few seem to realize that.

"I believe in the brotherhood of man, all men, but I don't believe in brotherhood with anybody who doesn't want brotherhood with me. I believe in treating people right, but I'm not going to waste my time trying to treat somebody right who doesn't know how to return the treatment." Al-Hajj Malik El-Shabazz (aka Malcolm X)
I hope my questions and answers did'nt offend, but you seem to have devloped some ill feelings I asked in hopes of understanding and getting insight...but if you have lighten up it's just a discussion.

______________________________
May the high praises of YAH be in their mouth and a two edged sword in their hand, To execute vengence on the peoples;to bind their kings with chains,and their nobles in shackles of iron,to carry out the sentence written against them.
This is the glory of the saints (psalms149)
My apologies. In a tit-for-tat with Nmaginate, need to slow down a little...

To answer your questions, northern Africa was already occupied by Carthage, the Greeks, then followed by the Romans. So what culture is being destroyed? Even without reading the book, I do not see how the author could come to such a conclusion.

(Good points,but what I'm trying to find out is. after all the talk and animosity about whites and there roles in past and current crimes to our people (and rightfully so)why total silence in regaurds to arabs past and present crimes against our people...and what's with the attitude this is a discussion board is'nt it ,so why do you seem (at least to me)for being asked your views)

What of the crimes of other Africans in our ancestors capture and trade for manufactured goods? Same thing...
People are people and they are prone to greed and other sins. Followers of Islam are prone to sin as much as Jews and Christians. It is not the religion that is the problem, it is when people fail to follow it.

(Well according to sahih bukhari(sp?)1.63, 2.122,and 4.744 it refers to him being a white man, and some other passages I can't recall, but what I wanted to know was if black Muslims were privlige to some info I was'nt aware of, and if so could you might share,but since you don't care either way I'll save that question for some one else.)

I am not privileged with such information of his race, as his color is insignificant to me as I am sure it was to him... Good luck.


(Simple,I'm glad someone asked me that, YAH knows all,he knows how every single event will or would unfold. I know the slaying of women seems cowardly and whoever heard of evil chidren...what did they do right ? Well children grow to be adults and women bare children(as well as commit evil deeds themselves)so you have look at it from YAH'S perspective that there could very well be and sometimes are entire groups of people that just can't continue to exist further. He never gives you more than you can endure but if certain families,nations regions etc. continue to grow and spread then you very well might. Small evils grow like cancers and eventually must be removed for the greater good. In other words,x amount of people could grow in numbers and commit genocide or whatever on a global scale in which case everyone would sit around asking "why did'nt god do something"blah blah blah "how could god permit such evil in the world"blah blah blah.But YAH in his infinite wisdom did...but few seem to realize that.)

An interesting response...

"I believe in the brotherhood of man, all men, but I don't believe in brotherhood with anybody who doesn't want brotherhood with me. I believe in treating people right, but I'm not going to waste my time trying to treat somebody right who doesn't know how to return the treatment." Al-Hajj Malik El-Shabazz (aka Malcolm X)
(Losing??? Losing what Khalilallah??

Who is judging the Winners & Losers on AA.org today? Tell me... I'd like to know what I'm losing or why and when this all became some game like that.)

Your losing, face it. You can't properly respond to any of my posts and now your picking an arguement here. A stupid one at that. Move on, its okay!

"I believe in the brotherhood of man, all men, but I don't believe in brotherhood with anybody who doesn't want brotherhood with me. I believe in treating people right, but I'm not going to waste my time trying to treat somebody right who doesn't know how to return the treatment." Al-Hajj Malik El-Shabazz (aka Malcolm X)
There exists a dilemma for all Black men and women in this world as far as religion. All of the top Monotheistic religions have in their history crimes against Black men and women by white members of that faith. If Black folk were to reject a particular religion based solely on the behavior of white or Arabs men and women then I say to you that we would not be Jewish, Muslim or Christian. All three of these monotheistic religions are guilty of having members of its faith participate in the destruction of the Black man and woman. Black men and women in America who are Muslims sometime get caught up in Arab culture and mistake it for Islam. Walking around in robes, having a big nappy beard and riding a camel is not Islamic. These things are Arab customs and culture but some how many brothers believe if they have a big nappy beard that makes them more Islamic than the next brother. Again this comes from the Hadiths where by Muslims claim to be following the sayings and doings of Prophet Muhammad. I have to agree that many Muslims have fallen prey to the Hadith following Muslims who will quote a Hadith quicker than they will quote the Qur'an.

Last I heard Arabs do not make up 30% of the Muslim world it was more like 12%. The idea that Islam is stuck in the stone ages is ridiculous as thinking that Christianity is stuck in the stone ages because it is the faith of many nations of people who live in deplorable conditions. It is not the religion that is stuck in a particular time in history it is the condition of the people that is stuck there. If we were to take a cursory glance at these countries we will see it is not the Qur'an that is leading them but some fool who have ascended to power and now rule the people with everything known to him but the Qur'an. Arabs sit on billions of dollars in wealth but because they have ignorant men and women in charge they do nothing more than use that money to benefit themselves and their immediate friends and family. If Arabs leaders wanted to change how the world sees Islam as they practice it, they have the means but there is no interest on there part in sharing the wealth with all of their people.

I also agree that there is not anything Islamic about stoning a woman and ignoring the adulterous man. This is Arab culture mixed with some misogynistic ignorance. However, because many people have not read the Qur'an and are ignorant of the Islamic Faith they do not know what to believe. Is Islam a religion of peace or one that teaches its followers to kill in the name of the God they believe in? Clearly the first choice is the correct choice based on numbers alone. If Islam taught every Muslim to kill and hate then, it is being taught poorly because the majority of Muslims are not engaged in such behavior.

I always find it amusing when Sunni, Shi'i, Sufi' and other sects of Muslims try to distance themselves from the NOI. In particular Black Muslims that are of these sects. It is clear to me that many of them only try to distance themselves in most cases to appease white folk, but many of them are involved in behavior that is as reprehensible as they believe the NOI belief of empowering Black people is. While Arab Sunni Muslims are running liquor stores and selling pork and other poisons in the Black community, the Black Sunni Muslims are pointing their finger at the NOI and praying next to these Arabs. While these Arabs are corrupting and have essentially hijacked Islam and made it appear to be a perverted, murderous terrorist religion the finger is still pointing at the NOI. Please, I love those brothers and they have done nothing but good in the Black community and if white folk don't like what they stand for then the hell with them. I stand with brothers and sisters in the NOI; I stand with Sunni Muslims who are not selling our people out for Arab culture. I stand with Hebrew Israelites and Christians who are working on behalf of our people and I laugh at Black men who run around with nappy beards, long robes and point the finger at the NOI. Following Arabs will lead Black men and women strait to hell and I am not talking about some place underground that can never be found. Islam has not and will never blind me to what Arabs have done and that many Arabs suffer from white supremacy and don't give a damn about our struggle.

-------------------------
When our most educated, and best prepared turn their back on our community, stagnation sets in and the men and women who are not the most educated and not the most prepared become the example for those coming behind them. It is up to those of us who are not rich and well off but are educated and prepared to educate our youth and prepare them for what they will face when entering the world.



More to come later!

Your Brother Faheem
I agree with you on many points. However when it comes to stoning, it is a jewish custom.

When it comes to the NOI, orthodox or Shiite muslims distanced themselves well before 9-11.
The ideology is the reason, they could give a damn about white sentiment. I may agree with black empowerment, however I can not agree with judging someone based on their race, with the exception of generalizations of their behavior.

As far as praying with the Arabs rather than other blacks, there are Mosques in this nation that are majority black. If there are Arabs then it is because race is not a factor, we are followers of Islam first and foremost. As to what they believe, who knows.

I also noticed that there is no requirement of a beard in the Qur'an, so I am in agreement that it is an Arabic thing.

Last I heard 30% was the number of Arabs and that was a year ago...
Never had to use the statistic until now...
Even though race should not be a factor when it comes to Islam, I brought this up due to the fact that their culture has indeed been mixed into the religion, so yes we are in agreement.

Islam should never blind anyone for what the Arabs have done, nor should skin color blind you for what Western Africans have done. Nor should Christianity blind you for what Europeans have done.

The big point is this. What group is responsible for degenerating a race to the status of an animal. As slavery was always a part of life in the past, Romans, Greeks, Jews, Persians, all had slaves. You have to condemn them all. The ones most deserving of condemnation are white Americans who lowered the status of an entire race to that of an animal. Our ancestors were not the first to be taken away from their homes, but we were the first to be designated as the slave race... Islam played no part in that. In fact, many of the slaves were followers of Islam.

"I believe in the brotherhood of man, all men, but I don't believe in brotherhood with anybody who doesn't want brotherhood with me. I believe in treating people right, but I'm not going to waste my time trying to treat somebody right who doesn't know how to return the treatment." Al-Hajj Malik El-Shabazz (aka Malcolm X)
Well I guess that is the difference between you and me Khalilallah, nothing comes before my Blackness and my will to defend Black people. While religion is a good thing, it is all based on what one chooses to believe and how that thing changes his or her life. I am a Muslim; however I deal with the reality of our situation here in America and abroad. Religion has played a great roll in lifting us up and it has played a great roll in tearing us down. Religion with all the good it can be used for is still another means to divide our people up. In a world based on competition, where one group has put one group down and literally destroyed their humanity in the eyes of the rest of the world, I stand with those who wish to get back our birth right, which is rebuilding our humanity. I will not allow any belief, religion, philosophy, technique or political agenda that is not centered on uplifting Black people, not certain Black people but all of us remove me from the struggle of our people. The banners we rap ourselves in are divisive tools used by the enemy of our rise to pit us one against the other. So a Black Democrat is fighting with a Black Republican, a Black Christian is fighting a Black Muslim, not to mention the inner fighting within these groups, organization and belief systems. I was Black long before I understood what a religion was; I was Black long before I was able to read the Qur'an. Too often men and women of the faith believe the key to fixing a problem is converting everyone to their particular faith, so religious debates are hot and heavy all over the country because every one believe their religion to be the true Religion of God.

I said it before and I will say it again, there is no religion that has hold of the truth so much that it can not be questioned. On flip side there is no questioning our history and present day condition in this country. If you are a follower of Islam first and foremost then more power to you, but I am black first and would still be black if I believed and followed Christianity or Judaism.

Maybe you misunderstood my point about praying next to Arabs, it was not to say that Black men and women that do it should not do it, It was said to provide clarity as to what I see as hypocrisy on the part of many Black Sunni Muslims who point the finger at the NOI allegedly because of theological differences but ignore their Arab Muslim brothers who are Sunni as well and run liquor store chains and sell all kinds of poisons to Black people. While many Black Sunni Muslims are quick to speak ill about the NOI, there is a silence as witnessed by non-Muslims on Arab Muslims who often attend the Mosque right along with these Black men and women but when these Arabs are not playing Muslim they are living a life of filth and deception and as a provider of filth. While there is a fight over who is theologically accurate and closer to the truth between the Black Sunni and the NOI, the behavior of Arabs who agree with the Black Sunni theologically is ignored. Of course this is not true of all Sunni brothers, I know plenty of Sunni brothers who fight for our people and are not afraid to stand shoulder to shoulder with the NOI. I am always suspicious of a Black man or woman who says they are Muslims but make sure that it is known that they are not NOI.

-------------------------
When our most educated, and best prepared turn their back on our community, stagnation sets in and the men and women who are not the most educated and not the most prepared become the example for those coming behind them. It is up to those of us who are not rich and well off but are educated and prepared to educate our youth and prepare them for what they will face when entering the world.



More to come later!

Your Brother Faheem
quote:
However when it comes to stoning, it is a jewish custom. - Khalilallah

I guess that couldn't have been a reason for my question... huh??

  • Could you clear this up for me? Is "stoning" a Jewish or Arab custom?

    Remember you said:
    "Being stoned has a lot to do with something, it as being one of the hadiths that is clearly wrong."

    I'd appreciate it!
    _________________________________________________

    It's quite funny... You're saying your reason for posting this is to address the "many" issues present here regarding terrorism and Islam, presumably for non-Muslim consumption. But the only kind of dialogue you can sustain and the primary interest in your post is with Muslims.
    (We won't talk about how you jumped on Immortal Logic... And I do have to say, my casual "FYI" in my first post should not have been interpreted as a snap at you, esp. if YOU actually read what followed it.)

    That - the mainly Muslim interest in your post - would be exactly why I term the article as a "sermon"... an intra-Muslim sermon (primarily)...
    quote:
    "These are the ... changes "we" must make as individuals and as a people when "we" re-evaluate the hadith on the basis of the Quran and when "we" return to the Quran.
    I'm sorry... but I find that statement to be something hardly relevant to non-Muslims, though I do see it as important for anyone who is interested in Islam or has a concern about its teachings to know that true believers in Al-Islam should and do place the Quran above hadiths, which are perhaps the source of a lot of the controversies concerning Muslim beliefs...

      Khalilallah... answer me this!
    • Who is the "we" Dr. Ahmad is talking about in that quote?
    • Muslims or non-Muslims or ALL people??
    • Who is he saying should "return to the Quran?


    *----*----*----*----*----*----*----*----*----*----*----*
    "One of the things that made the Black Muslim movement grow
    was its emphasis upon things African. This was the secret to the growth
    of the Black Muslim movement.
    *African blood, African origin, African culture, African ties.*
    And you'd be surprised...
    We discovered that deep within the subconscious of the black man in this country , he is still more African than he is American.


    - Malcolm X, February 14, 1965
  • Allah will always be first in my mind. How that may be a distraction from raising our people, I can not see it.

    Religion did not play the role of tearing us down, people with evil intent did, nothing more. I strongly feel that by following the true spirit of the Qur'an, it would help us with our humanity.

    I would never expect anyone, including myself, to allow someone's version of ideology, religion, philosophy, political agenda or technique that is hurtful to the black cause, to be swayed by it, influenced. Nor shall I allow my faith in Allah and humanity be compromised for our cause. They both can go hand in hand, faith and our cause.

    As far as converting everyone to a certain faith, no one is perfect, just kidding. I truly believe that people are who they are for a reason. To either help me or to make me stronger. I know of good Christians and Jews and I know of evil Christians, Jews and followers of Islam.

    Having Islam first never kept me from contributing to the up-lifting of our people. I have contributed to this websites with ideas and as a show of concrete action, I am organizing my family to solve our own problems.

    I have not once tried to convert anyone, rather to have some understand. As victims of ignorance I would of expected our people to be better but I have seen the truth and it is not pretty.

    Blacks have called me evil, a pagan worshipper (that was trully funny), and a terrorist. I was even told by a black person that I did not have the right to be a follower of Islam since Freedom of Religion was meant only for Christian denominations. Then I had white Christians who came to my defense on these issues. So for me to pigeon-hole a group of people as evil, it can not be done. I have a friend that happens to be Jewish that called to see if I was okay after 9-11. I made friends with an Arab, ArabianQueen, who is not in any certain way, with superior beliefs. So how can I be a follower of the NOI when the white man has been referred to as the devil?

    Because Islam comes first to me, it does not equate that Arabs and their way of life is included. It does not equate that the beliefs that the Arabs have organized themselves into are mine, not at all. It means that I will use the mind that Allah provided me with and will follow the Qur'an as was intended, not the words of man who are biased. Some hadith are truthful attributes of humanity while others are truly sexist and can even be viewed as racist.

    I now understand your point in regards to your point about Arabs. I do not ignore their ways and you will find that other followers of Islam, that are black realize how many of them are. The NOI is not ignored, the Arabs are not ignored, the West Africans are not ignored.

    I will always point out that I am not NOI because you can not say that they are not racist. They are. I read Al-Hajj Malik El-Shabazz's autobiography and know of the story of the mad scientist. How is that a part of Islam?

    Being a follower of Islam first does not mean that you have to give up anything that makes you black. And because you have made that decision, it does not cause me to pass judgement of your character. Everyone has a right to their perspective.

    "I believe in the brotherhood of man, all men, but I don't believe in brotherhood with anybody who doesn't want brotherhood with me. I believe in treating people right, but I'm not going to waste my time trying to treat somebody right who doesn't know how to return the treatment." Al-Hajj Malik El-Shabazz (aka Malcolm X)
    (--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    However when it comes to stoning, it is a jewish custom. - Khalilallah

    I guess that couldn't have been a reason for my question... huh??

    Could you clear this up for me? Is "stoning" a Jewish or Arab custom?
    Remember you said:
    "Being stoned has a lot to do with something, it as being one of the hadiths that is clearly wrong."

    I'd appreciate it!)

    Hey man, I just choose not to answer any of your questions because of our current history. It doesn't have to be this way you know...

    (It's quite funny... You're saying your reason for posting this is to address the "many" issues present here regarding terrorism and Islam, presumably for non-Muslim consumption. But the only kind of dialogue you can sustain and the primary interest in your post is with Muslims.)

    Perhaps because they are not attacking me. Understand? They are also black, and perhaps the Spiritual forum isn't the only place for this. Just perhaps. That is your main concern right? Or is it just your contempt towards me? Answer mine and I will answer yours...

    (We won't talk about how you jumped on Immortal Logic... And I do have to say, my casual "FYI" in my first post should not have been interpreted as a snap at you, esp. if YOU actually read what followed it.

    That - the mainly Muslim interest in your post - would be exactly why I term the article as a "sermon"... an intra-Muslim sermon (primarily)...
    quote:
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    "These are the ... changes "we" must make as individuals and as a people when "we" re-evaluate the hadith on the basis of the Quran and when "we" return to the Quran.
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    I'm sorry... but I find that statement to be something hardly relevant to non-Muslims, though I do see it as important for anyone who is interested in Islam or has a concern about its teachings to know that true believers in Al-Islam should and do place the Quran above hadiths, which are perhaps the source of a lot of the controversies concerning Muslim beliefs...)


    I apologized to Immortal Logic, something that you are not able to do as of yet. I, unlike you, admit when I am wrong.

    Since a large population of blacks are followers of Islam, since we are part of the group that needs uplifting in this country, why do you have a problem? Oh, you don't have a problem with that, but with me. Save it for the debate...


    (Khalilallah... answer me this!)

    Sure

    (Who is the "we" Dr. Ahmad is talking about in that quote?
    Muslims or non-Muslims or ALL people??
    Who is he saying should "return to the Quran?)

    Followers of Islam. Who would understand that the religion is in turmoil and is fixing itself?

    You.

    Who would understand that certain hadiths are adding fuel to the fire that was started by U.S. foreign policy.

    You.

    With these hadiths and U.S. foreign policy causing turmoil with Islam, isn't it nice to know that the religion is being taken back, perhaps religion and ideology are being seperated?

    I think you would agree. Now wouldn't you? I could be wrong...

    "I believe in the brotherhood of man, all men, but I don't believe in brotherhood with anybody who doesn't want brotherhood with me. I believe in treating people right, but I'm not going to waste my time trying to treat somebody right who doesn't know how to return the treatment." Al-Hajj Malik El-Shabazz (aka Malcolm X)
    Mind you, this is one man's opinion.
    **I meant to post this last night, but it wouldn't go through, and I see people have answered it already, but here goes:


    Hey,there's some perspectives I've always wanted to get from the muslim portion of the black family, I've asked bros. before yet never recieved an answer or people would just walk away,but you seem like good guys so I figured I'd ask you:

    1)What is your assessment on "Destruction of the Black Civilazation" by Chanceller Williams in which much of the blame(or at least a good portion)is attributed to islam?
    I haven't read the book, but if it is talking about Africa, then I can say he is partially right. The Arabs committed numerous atrocities against the African people in the name of Islam. If they had been adhering to true Islam, this would be a non-topic. These so called Muslims open Africa up to slavery and began the crescendo that reached its horrific peak when the so-called Christian nations of Europe came calling. It is on the same vein that Europeans used the idea of spreading their idea of "Christianity" throughout Africa to rape it of its resources, enslave its people, and generally stunt the growth of its people that has ramifications today.

    2)What is your opinions on the enslavement that persist even today of our african brethen by muslims? And do you feel caught in the middle?

    Yes, it does occur in places like Sudan and Mauritania, but it is NOT the flourishing trade that Jerry Falwell Swaggert and the Christian televangelists would like you to believe. And it has much more about power, control, and intimidation by the ruling class (which most of these so called Arabs are black, BTW) than fulfilling any Quranic decree the missionaries hype it to be. But there is no such thing as benign slavery, and I don't condone it any more than I do the slavery that exists in other parts of the world today.

    3)What is your opinions of muslims seemingly distancing themselvs from the N.O.I. after 9/11? I don't want to get into a drawn out argument with anyone, but The NOI has never been accepted as part of the Muslim community, and never will as long as they hold on to what is seen as blasphemous views.

    4)I've read exerpts the koran where mohammed is refered to as being white,but i've also hear black muslims say he was black,which is it? And if he is black,elaborate...how did you come to this conclusion? thanks.

    The Prophet Muhammad was an Arab. Not all Arabs are swarthy. This shows you how people can bend the facts to benefit their outlook. Hell, look at how some Christians believe Jesus was blond, with blue eyes. I think you confuse black Muslims (as in NOI) with Muslims who are black, and should know that there is a distinction. If your question was directed at members of the NOI, then ignore my posts, as I am not one.
    "I believe in a religion that believes in freedom. Any time I have to accept a religion that won't let me fight a battle for my people, I say to hell with that religion."

    As a Christian, your supposed to turn the other cheek.

    As a Jew, well I don't know if you can because you would be a gentile. Not sure if you would belong...

    So, tell me, how is it that Islam keeps one from fighting a necessary battle? It doesn't. Read the words below from the man in which you have a picture of, under your name. I share the belief of this Muslim. All should.

    "I believe in the brotherhood of man, all men, but I don't believe in brotherhood with anybody who doesn't want brotherhood with me. I believe in treating people right, but I'm not going to waste my time trying to treat somebody right who doesn't know how to return the treatment." Al-Hajj Malik El-Shabazz (aka Malcolm X)
    quote:
    NMAGINATE:
    Who is the "we" Dr. Ahmad is talking about in that quote?
    Muslims or non-Muslims or ALL people??
    Who is he saying should "return to the Quran?

    KHALILALLAH:
    Followers of Islam. Who would understand that the religion is in turmoil and is fixing itself?
    "Followers of Islam"?? ... Followers of Islam"...??

    I thought the purpose for you posting this was for the benefit of non-Muslims...
    quote:
    Since there are many issues being brought up here about terrorism and Islam in general. I thought that it would be appropriate.

    You've just admitted, basically, that the author wrote the piece to a Muslim audience. That's what I've been pointing out from the beginning. However, as stated in your quote, you seem to think it would help non-Muslims understand Islam better, perhaps some... But the whole gist of the message being sent is communicated in terms that Muslims are more apt to understand, not non-Muslims. And, of course, you just had to admit that as well - i.e. "Who would understand that the religion is in turmoil..."

    Indeed, "who else" but Muslims would understand the religion and would answer the call to "fix it"??

    *----*----*----*----*----*----*----*----*----*----*----*
    "One of the things that made the Black Muslim movement grow
    was its emphasis upon things African. This was the secret to the growth
    of the Black Muslim movement.
    *African blood, African origin, African culture, African ties.*
    And you'd be surprised...
    We discovered that deep within the subconscious of the black man in this country , he is still more African than he is American.


    - Malcolm X, February 14, 1965
    Nmaginate, are you learning something here?

    Is not your outlook on Islam changing due to being exposed to this discussion?

    Is it benefitting you at all?

    So tell me. When you see another Islamic terrorism post, would this article affect your response?

    You never asked who are the leaders this letter is addressed to? Why?

    Your purpose here is to engage me regardless of the topic, nothing more and nothing less. I recognize that from the start. I could do the same to you but we have rarely been in disagreement, until lately. So get over it. It is okay to do so you know...

    "I believe in the brotherhood of man, all men, but I don't believe in brotherhood with anybody who doesn't want brotherhood with me. I believe in treating people right, but I'm not going to waste my time trying to treat somebody right who doesn't know how to return the treatment." Al-Hajj Malik El-Shabazz (aka Malcolm X)
    quote:
    Nmaginate, are you learning something here?

    Is not your outlook on Islam changing due to being exposed to this discussion?

    Is it benefitting you at all?

    No Khalilallah...

    You are being presumptuous as usual.

    My "outlook" and knowledge of Islam has already informed me (because of my interest in it - past/present) with information on par and beyond this discussion.
    quote:
    So tell me. When you see another Islamic terrorism post, would this article affect your response?
    NO! You told me the "KEY" word was "Islam in general" and you refused to specifically address "terrorism".

    Again, my "outlook" has informed me more than what you are apparently willing to do. To the tell the truth, I already knew the things mentioned in the article.

    You never asked me what I thought "terrorism" had to do with the teachings of Islam. WHY??....

    And you can tell me what leaders this was sent to. That will be fine but it still doesn't take away from what you said the purpose of it and the obvious audience it was addressed to by virtue of the "WE" that you and I both agreed were MUSLIMS.
    (quote:
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Nmaginate, are you learning something here?

    Is not your outlook on Islam changing due to being exposed to this discussion?

    Is it benefitting you at all?

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    No Khalilallah...

    You are being presumptuous as usual.)


    Then move along. Others perhaps are learning...

    (My "outlook" and knowledge of Islam has already informed me (because of my interest in it - past/present) with information on par and beyond this discussion.)

    Is that so? Then why are you here and why are you asking me questions? Are you testing me? Post somewhere else then.

    MBM reserves the right to remove this entire thread and if he does so then fine, more respect for him. So please, complain to him about this and get this thread removed. It stills does not change my position. In fact, yours and mine is irrelevant. The thread is here and has been for more than two days.

    So, you can either discuss the issue of the letter or something similar, or request that this thread be moved. It is all on you.



    (quote:
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    So tell me. When you see another Islamic terrorism post, would this article affect your response?
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    NO! You told me the "KEY" word was "Islam in general" and you refused to specifically address "terrorism".)

    Okay. So you have not read my response, some of these hadiths are variables in terrorism. For you to not see the connection is beyond me.

    (Again, my "outlook" has informed me more than what you are apparently willing to do. To the tell the truth, I already knew the things mentioned in the article.)

    Well, then let others learn in peace.

    (You never asked me what I thought "terrorism" had to do with the teachings of Islam. WHY??....)

    Actually, if someone else asked the question, I would of answered it. You on the other hand, I have no desire to waste my time. For you are searching for something to debate. There is nothing to debate.
    I know that Islam does not teach terrorism, people do. If it is contrary to the Qur'an, it is not Islam.

    (And you can tell me what leaders this was sent to. That will be fine but it still doesn't take away from what you said the purpose of it and the obvious audience it was addressed to by virtue of the "WE" that you and I both agreed were MUSLIMS.)

    And any other black person that wants to be aware.

    So I quess that you should cease your opinions in regards to Trans-Africa/Pan-Africanism since it has nothing to do with black people in America. I mean it does not benefit us, rather Africans?

    "I believe in the brotherhood of man, all men, but I don't believe in brotherhood with anybody who doesn't want brotherhood with me. I believe in treating people right, but I'm not going to waste my time trying to treat somebody right who doesn't know how to return the treatment." Al-Hajj Malik El-Shabazz (aka Malcolm X)
    quote:
    MBM reserves the right to remove this entire thread and if he does so then fine, more respect for him. So please, complain to him about this and get this thread removed.
    I'm not complaining and don't want the thread removed. KH~

    I was hoping that you could show me something... but your smart-alex ways and your desire to be confrontational stopped you from doing that.

    The only reference to teachings/beliefs derived from Hadiths that you made was to the whole "stoning" issue. You can correct me if I'm wrong but you addressed no other specific Hadith. So... no I do not know or can I fathom how stoning has anything directly to do with "terrorism" or "Muslim" animosity against the West. If anything "stoning" is domestic terrorism (as in familial/household/relationship terrorism) and is not akin to international terrorism.

    Let Others Learn In Peace...
    I've almost specifically conversed with you. I'm not bothering anyone. I'm only asking you questions. And I do think it's rather presumptuous of you, unless "others" have told you they want to learn, to aSSume that people here are in need - and I include myself since you implied that I needed to learn about Islam - of some education about Islam. Your inference was that some or perhaps most of the posters here are ignorant of Islam and have shown that "ignorance" in posts here that perhaps promote stereotypes of misinformation about the true beliefs - Quran vs. Hadiths - of Islam.

    I would beg to differ.

    But I did hope to see the expanse of your knowledge and ideas on the common misperceptions and hoped that you would cite passages/philosophies from Quran that refute any number of the misperceptions. So, I'm left disappointed... You have not offered me, one who was willing to "learn" or was eager to her your actual beliefs based on Quran, anything...

    *----*----*----*----*----*----*----*----*----*----*----*
    "One of the things that made the Black Muslim movement grow
    was its emphasis upon things African. This was the secret to the growth
    of the Black Muslim movement.
    *African blood, African origin, African culture, African ties.*
    And you'd be surprised...
    We discovered that deep within the subconscious of the black man in this country , he is still more African than he is American.


    - Malcolm X, February 14, 1965
    I was hoping that you could show me something... but your smart-alex ways and your desire to be confrontational stopped you from doing that.

    Actually, I am trying to avoid you. Perhaps there is nothing new for you, perhaps that means that others might want to read it.

    Nmaginate: (The only reference to teachings/beliefs derived from Hadiths that you made was to the whole "stoning" issue. You can correct me if I'm wrong but you addressed no other specific Hadith.)

    As an example. I will wait for another to ask as you already know everything.

    (So... no I do not know or can I fathom how stoning has anything directly to do with "terrorism" or "Muslim" animosity against the West. If anything "stoning" is domestic terrorism (as in familial/household/relationship terrorism) and is not akin to international terrorism.)

    The perception by the west is that such actions are evil and ancient. It has been identified with Islam. So that means what?

    Nmaginate(Let Others Learn In Peace...
    I've almost specifically conversed with you. I'm not bothering anyone.)

    Everyone is concentrating on your pathetic attempts to debate what is not there rather than to discuss the topic. I refuse to take you seriously in this discussion, so you will not get much from me here.

    Anyone else wants to deal with him, go ahead. I will deal with him when I think he is truly serious.

    Nmaginate: (I'm only asking you questions. And I do think it's rather presumptuous of you, unless "others" have told you they want to learn, to aSSume that people here are in need - and I include myself since you implied that I needed to learn about Islam - of some education about Islam.)

    And it is presumptuous to think that they do not. It is presumptuous that anyone wants debate, as far as I am seeing, nothing with you.

    If someone does not wish to know anymore about Islam, they go somewhere else.

    Nmaginate: (Your inference was that some or perhaps most of the posters here are ignorant of Islam and have shown that "ignorance" in posts here that perhaps promote stereotypes of misinformation about the true beliefs - Quran vs. Hadiths - of Islam.)

    Actually, that is what you perceive. I was rather happy that this letter existed and I wanted to share with all. Especially since I believed that I was the only one with such thoughts. I found it very refreshing and I wanted to share that with everyone. Including you, only I am beginning to change my mind.

    Nmaginate: (But I did hope to see the expanse of your knowledge and ideas on the common misperceptions and hoped that you would cite passages/philosophies from Qur'an that refute any number of the misperceptions.)

    Anything that you hear that sounds evil? Trust me; it is not in the Qur'an.

    Nmaginate: (So, I'm left disappointed... You have not offered me, one who was willing to "learn" or was eager to her your actual beliefs based on Quran, anything...)

    I have no desire to teach you anything as you have already stated that you know everything. You are nothing more than an instigator. Here is a letter to Islamic leaders that plants a seed of change. You see this nothing more than an attempt to engage me in a debate of I don't know what? First it was it legitimacy of it being here and now I am hearing that you are disappointed? Please, you are nothing more than a charlatan.

    Move on somewhere else, there is no debate to be made here.

    "I believe in the brotherhood of man, all men, but I don't believe in brotherhood with anybody who doesn't want brotherhood with me. I believe in treating people right, but I'm not going to waste my time trying to treat somebody right who doesn't know how to return the treatment." Al-Hajj Malik El-Shabazz (aka Malcolm X)
    quote:
    I have no desire to teach you anything as you have already stated that you know everything. You are nothing more than an instigator. Here is a letter to Islamic leaders that plants a seed of change.
    First, I never said I knew everything. I said I was aware of the things listed in the article you posted. You not only aSSumed I knew very little about Islam, you called me an Islam-o-phobe or someone who was against your religion long before this thread...

    I stated that I was interested and wanted to learn Quran, basically, as it relates to the topic of terrorism which YOU said was part of your impetus for posting the article... which brings me again to the stated audience.

    You have finally admitted that this is a letter to ISLAMIC leaders. Such a letter would quite naturally be written in a language that "Islamic" leaders would understand better than anyone else. So, again, I my issue is that this letter could not possibly do what you claimed or inferred that it would do - i.e. help non-Muslims understand Islam by dispelling commonly held misperceptions about Islam "in general" and "specifically" about what it does and does not teach about terrorism.

    Yes...
    From the very first post I made here I knew by reading the letter that it was to Muslim leaders and was not intentionally meant to educate non-Muslim audiences. You were perhaps right in saying that the letter might give some a glimpse into the Quran vs. Hadith "factions" of Muslims. I would hesistate to call it "new"...

    But, again, I can't see how it is relevant in the terms/context you expressed it.
    • I found this to be a very interesting letter that would allow those of you that do not understand the truth about Islam...

    • Since there are many issues being brought up here about terrorism and Islam in general.
    You refused to terrorism or to submit Islamic, Quranic teachings that are against it.

    I was and still would like to learn Quranic scriptures that you think deal with that issue or any other relevant ones. So I would like to learn what you know about the Quran or rather what you can tell me about the Quran because I know very little and I would think everyone could benefit from teachings right from the source.
    Move along or wait for someone else to assist you.

    "I believe in the brotherhood of man, all men, but I don't believe in brotherhood with anybody who doesn't want brotherhood with me. I believe in treating people right, but I'm not going to waste my time trying to treat somebody right who doesn't know how to return the treatment." Al-Hajj Malik El-Shabazz (aka Malcolm X)

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