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I've read many of your posts where you rail against a "separation of agendas" [Black and White].

Do you believe that the interests of Black people and White people in America are the same?

Do you believe that Black and White folk can achieve the same results using the same strategies?

Do you believe that racism is an obstacle that Black folk have to contend with while White folk don't?

Please address all three questions.
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Toussaint, She [Sgt., I mean Delta] and I have history, that's the basis of the personal attack. But you should know that and not speak in a vaccuum.

But anyway, I just have trouble understanding how, given the continuing history in these United States, any person of color can believe that the interests of Black and White are the same, that Black and Whites can pursue the same strategies, achieving the same results; and that racism continues to be an obstacle to success.

Excuse my frustration.
Well lets see then. I think we both like to eat food and have it available. I think we both like to get educations and succeed in life. I think we both like to live comfortably and not have to worry about crime. I think we both breath the same air, and have the same needs when it comes to health. I think we both are in the same boat when it comes to raising children well, and seeing that we provide for them the best we can. I mean, at what point should I stop, I got plenty more if your truly interested. There ARE black success stories. There ARE black mayors, black police officers, black college graduates, blacks in government, blacks and whites on welfare, black sports heros, black tv stars, black singers and dancers, black ministers and churches, black organizations, black judges, black store clerks, black entrepreneurs, black this and black that, and there are whites who do exactly the same things for exactly the same reasons.

Why do you think black people are somehow 'separate' from the rest of the human race when it comes to their needs, aspirations, wants, dreams and desires? That makes no sense to me whatsoever, why folks such as you or mbm have this 'need' to segregate us into a separate human category as if our wants and needs are any different than any human being that has walked on the planet. So far, the only explanation is that you suffer from 'white envy' or something. Its childish, and wholly unnecessary to believe you need something different than anyone else because of your skin tone. We laugh, and we cry, we love and we hate. We dance and we run. We drive well, and we drive poorly. No differences, no 'special needs' blacks, no 'alien' life forces. We are HUMAN for God's sake!

[This message was edited by DeltaJ on March 25, 2004 at 02:06 PM.]
Yes, the examples that you cite are quite true; we both share some of the same needs. You neglect however, to mention the need to not be handicapped, i.e., discriminated against, because of our race. And this is a need that is exclusive to people of color.

I don't think that Black people are somehow separate from the rest of the human race when it comes to needs, aspirations, wants, and desires. I leave that to the White racists, that have, and continue, to deny us equal access to employment, education and justice.

I believe that we have separate interests, and therefore the need for a separate agenda, because we, alone, have the added burden of navigating a racist society.
Why? You think whites or asians WANT to be discriminated against? Did the Irish want to be? Did the Jews want to be? Where do you get the idea that black folks are the only ones with race or ethnic issues? Thats crazy. Do white woman WANT to be discriminated against? Does anyone force people of color into jobs on the farm any more? Anyone force people of color to drink from certain fountains, use separate restaurants, get off buses before their stops. WHAT are we talking about here. Is it the fact that so many brothers end up in jail? You hear excuses for that all the time, but tell me, did anyone FORCE anyone to actually rob or steal or maim or kill? You see those 'gangstas' out there on the corner not working? They got shoes that cost more than I even saw in an entire year when I was a teen.

Is it that you think we need more LAWS or something? Ok, explain exactly the laws you would create today that we don't have now.

Separate interests? Like what? Don't we want to have good lives. Don't we want to make lots of money, take good care of our children, grow to be old, earn education and wisdom, drink clean water, WHERE ARE ALL THESE 'SEPARATE' INTERESTS THAT PEOPLE KEEP HINTING AT BUT CAN'T ARTICULATE?

Its crazy. I put pretty much the same questions to mbm, tell us what this 'separate' agenda is supposed to look like. He vanishes, just dumbfounded apparently. I don't get that.

Some have this weird idea that there is 'something' out there that is going to make someone who is a racist, suddenly not 'racist' any longer. But I ask what that magic cure might be, and everyone just disappears with their keyboards on mute.

We Alone? How can you say we are alone when there are 5 billion people on the planet? Do we need to be free? Do we need to mind our manners? Do we need to respect others? Do we need to take care of our families? Are we all ALONE in all these things human beings do?

Where are all these 'special needs' negroes yall keep hinting about but can't articulate on? Its ridiculous that I've been asking this for weeks now, and yet noone seems to know. Yet I'm attacked and called names because I do not pretend to support some 'separate agenda', that even the supposed Black leaders apparently don't have, since they are still trying to decide on what its supposed to be here in year 2004! I mean, excuse me, but it we got this far with no 'segregated agenda', just how all important was it supposed to be?
See what I mean. What the hell that supposed to be mbm? Wasn't no 'segregated political agenda' there. Can't you just discuss it. Start with the 'cure' for racism. How you going to get racists to suddenly become 'un-racist' just because you think they should?

Do we need even MORE new laws? OK, please elaborate on which laws are needed that don't exist today, and how you intend to make them viable.

Do we need special 'foods', maybe from africa? Maybe we not eating the right foods that evolution necessitates, and it cause us to drop out of high school prematurely, I dont know.

So, thats it?
quote:
Originally posted by DeltaJ:

Some have this weird idea that there is 'something' out there that is going to make someone who is a racist, suddenly not 'racist' any longer. But I ask what that magic cure might be, and everyone just disappears with their keyboards on mute.


Education. Racism and discrimination are born of ignorance and insecurity. Education can positively impact each. While people are learning however, laws need to be put in place to set the legal "guard rails" to help guide societal behavior.

If you opened your eyes for just a moment you really might learn something.
quote:
Originally posted by DeltaJ:
See what I mean. What the hell that supposed to be mbm? Wasn't no 'segregated political agenda' there. Can't you just discuss it. Start with the 'cure' for racism. How you going to get racists to suddenly become 'un-racist' just because you think they should?

Do we need even MORE new laws? OK, please elaborate on which laws are needed that don't exist today, and how you intend to make them viable.

Do we need special 'foods', maybe from africa? Maybe we not eating the right foods that evolution necessitates, and it cause us to drop out of high school prematurely, I dont know.

So, thats it?


Try reading DJ. You asked a question and made an accusation then refuse to look at the answer that is staring you right in the face.
No wrong, I looked. And it wasn't there. Tell you what, rather than play these games, cut and paste your answer and lets get on with it already.

Racism and discrimination are born of ignorance and insecurity.

Yeah, and sometimes greed too. So? Are you claiming noone knows this? What you plan on doing, sending white people to black schools or something? You really believe that you can make white folks secure? Please, lets hear more than just buzz words, tell me how you plan in a political agenda, for FORCE white folks 1)to get educated, 2)to be more secure.

Education. Education. Education. Education. Yes, we've all heard about the wonders of Education. Tell me why we can't get our kids to go to school, outperform all others on 'knowledge' tests, and NEVER ever drop out. Explain how we going to stress Education, and not be laughed out, cause I'm laughing right now.

Your up.
quote:
Originally posted by DeltaJ:

Explain how we going to stress Education, and not be laughed out, cause I'm laughing right now.


You're laughing becuase every time you get into a thread you end up embarassing yourself. Why not open your eyes and read and stop being the auto-contrarian that you so pride yourself on being. Instead of responding reflexively to everything that everyone says here why not open your mind and try to understand just a bit. You may find that you can learn something in the experiences and perspectives of others who have lived and seen different things than you.
THAT is the only line that you respond to from all those posts?

Right now I was patiently trying to 'learn' about this fictitious 'agenda' some keep yammering about. And that was your response. Thats another thing that we share with the human race, the need for patience.

Can anyone understand NOW why I say our needs are no different than anyone else on the planet when it comes to a political party or agenda, and that there is no such thing as a magic 'black magic' agenda anywhere? Noone has a clue, all we know is that we want it to be something that seems anti-white and vaguely original.

I mean, when is this ruse finally going to end? Not only do we not have this 'agenda', but then comes the ways and means to actually put it into any coherent and movable political structure. Tell me you are not handicapping black folks by starting with a 'wheel is round'. I'm sorry, but I dont' think african americans have the luxury of 'putzing' around like this when it comes to politics and power.

ok, I'm also sorry for the directness then. Lets call it even. Thanks anyway and Good night.
I see that there are a bunch of posts, but I'll respond without reading them.

No, I don't think that anyone wants to be discriminated against. But the groups that you mention-the Jew, the Irish, Asians, and woman, all have a separate agenda from White men.

No, I don't think that we need more laws. I think we need to enforce the laws that we have on the books, on an equal basis.

Again our separate interests include address the injustices that we are subjected to because of our race. Just as Jews have a separate interest in fighting anti-semitism, and women have a separate interest in fighting for gender issues, we too have a separate interest in fighting racism.

I don't want to convert a racist into a non-racist. I merely want this society that boasts of equal opportunity, to act when the racist acts in an unlawful manner. When a racist denies someone Black an employment opportunity, it is in my interest to demand that he/she is held accountable. When we have a healthcare system that provides lesser care to Black folk, I have an interest in demanding that the healthcare system be changed to provide equal care. When a Black receives disparate sentencing in the criminal justice system, it is in my interest to demand that the system be equalized. It's as simple as that.

We are all "special needs 'negroes'" as you would call us. When injustice is served upon one of us based on our race, it is an injustice served on all of us. Just as when an American is killed on foreign soil, it is America's responsibility to address the crime.

Lastly, it's 2004 and we got this far because of a segregated agenda, I'm sure you read about the civil rights movement.
Okay, I read the exchange between you and MBM ...

Bottomline, I don't care about converting a racist, I'm only concerned with minimizing the racist's impact on me and mine (read: Black folk).

Unlike MBM, I don't want to educate them because they, like you, refuse to acknowledge that their racism is a problem. It's a lot like trying to tell a drunk or a dope fiend that their abuse is a problem; until they come to that realization, nothing I say will reach them. So I treat racists the same way I treat dope fiends, I avoid them when possible, and protect myself always.
Kweli,

I used to try to educate them....but when you provide social research and other academic material to a person who tries to rebut it but lacks the acumen to do so.....you realize you are wasting your time......I try to avoid racists too...but I do not run from them to do so......I crush their azzes when they get in my path..........
Yes ER,

That is exactly what I mean......It is like getting a Ph.D. to impress first graders....why do it?


As so far as "white envy".....must every black who cow-tows to whites see every other black as inadequate as themselves.....which is what made them cop that pro-white, anti-black, "we ain't good as them" philosophy for EVERYTHING in the first place? I guess when I accomplished many things that whites haven't and never will....especially under the auspices of racism....I should still tell myself I haven't accomplished shit....because I still "ain't" white......my God....it really proves what I have always said about a black person's pro-white behavior being psychological because it is beyond being just logical.........
Unlike MBM, I don't want to educate them because they, like you, refuse to acknowledge that their racism is a problem. It's a lot like trying to tell a drunk or a dope fiend that their abuse is a problem; until they come to that realization, nothing I say will reach them.

So, you are agreeing with me. I keep asking folks here how they expect to 'cure' racism, and noone has fathomed that question to any great degree. You yourself ask me if racism 'EXISTS'. And I sit here thinking who cannot know that racism exists? But THEN WHAT? Yes it exists, probably always will. SO? Are we to give up on getting on with our lives because that is so? Can we create yet more laws, perhaps a law against 'discrimination' or using racist practices? OOOPPPSSS, already got plenty of those!

This obsession with racism, both past and present, does nothing to further ourselves today. It a drag on everyone's time and focus.

And YES most definately, white folks today do not acknowledge racism as a big problem, nor care about racism or slavery anywhere near the way some would like them to. They are wholly disconnected from that, especially younger generations, and have better things to concern themselves with. As you yourself say, "nothing you say will reach them".

So its here, and we aren't going to change that reality overnight. My thrust is on what WE are going to do, and I want us to think more on that. But I'm not into escapism and africanism, I want to dominate the culture I live in and earn whats mine.

So you are agreeing with me whether you know it or not.
Delta posted,

This obsession with racism, both past and present, does nothing to further ourselves today. It a drag on everyone's time and focus.



**So Delta,

when actions on the part of others result in adverse outcomes on the lives and situations of black people....it is just an obsession and not a legitimate observation? So in other words, black people just overexaggerate the extent racism exists and are really delusional in terms of what is actually going on? You ought to listen to yourself......you are either once again a white antagonist or a black person who has lost their f-king mind.
I don't know how OLD DeltaJ is, but if that DRAFT comes, and he's/she's of AGE, he's/she's not gonna DOMINATE anything and what he/she earns just might be a BODY BAG!! Be very careful what ya wish for. That BODY BAG takes all ages beginning at age 18; race makes no damn difference. The DOMINATE race might just rock your damn world, even though you're a "member". The DRAFT is a FORCE we may all have to contend with. SLAVERY abounds!!
Delta posted,

This obsession with racism, both past and present, does nothing to further ourselves today. It a drag on everyone's time and focus.
____________________________________________

Now this something that you should be telling the white racist, not African Americans who primarily are only reacting to the racism that is being thrown at them.

And oh, by the way, African American always have and still do possess the uncanny ability to complain about, fight and deal with racism and still go about their day---still go to work, still go to school, still go to play, still love our children, still eat, still, still sleep, still breath . . . so, dealing with racism and not holding in our opinions of racism and its effect on African Americans/Descents, somehow has not stopped us from going about our day.

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