Obama stalls in public polling

David Paul Kuhn
Wed Aug 6, 5:48 AM ET




In the two months since Barack Obama captured the Democratic nomination, he has hit a ceiling in public opinion polling, proving unable to make significant gains with any segment of the national electorate.

While Obama still leads in most matchups with John McCain, the Illinois senator's apparent stall in the polls is a sobering reminder to Democrats intoxicated with his campaign's promises to expand the electoral map beyond the boundaries that have constrained other recent party nominees.

That gap between expectations and reality comes as Democrats enjoy the most favorable political winds since at least 1976. At least eight in ten Americans believe the nation is on the wrong track. The Republican president is historically unpopular. From stunning Democratic gains in party registration to the high levels of economic anxiety, Obama should have a healthy lead by almost every measure. Yet, in poll after poll, Obama conspicuously fails to cross the 50-percent threshold.

ABC News Polling Director Gary Langer asked, "If everything is so good for Barack Obama, why isn't everything so good for Barack Obama?"

Obama remains ahead, depending on the national poll, by low to high single digits. The Gallup Poll Daily tracking survey, which randomly interviews at least 1,000 voters each day, has recently found that Obama leads by 3 to 4 percentage points.

In the first full week of the general election, June 9-15, Obama led by between 2 and 7 percentage points. Just short of two months later, registered voters have not significantly shifted their views, as Gallup finds public opinion still fluctuating between roughly the same margins.

"What's remarkable this summer is the stability of this race," Gallup's director Frank Newport said. "In a broad sense, it is similar to previous elections."

In Gallup's last national poll prior to the 2004 party conventions, for example, John F. Kerry led President George W. Bush 47 percent to 43 percent. In 2000, also in Gallup's last national poll prior to the party conventions, Bush led former Vice President Al Gore 46 percent to 41 percent.

Three demographic groups have generally kept Obama ahead in the past two months: African-Americans, youth and Hispanics. But a lead based on those groups is a tenuous one. The youth vote, notorious for not meeting expectations, must turn out in significantly higher numbers than in past elections. Obama must continue to win the black vote nearly unanimously and still turn out new African-American voters. McCain must continue to underperform with Hispanics by about 10 percentage points compared to Bush in the summer of 2004.

McCain might also be said to have hit a ceiling himself. At best, he has statistically tied Obama for fleeting periods this summer.

Yet in this Democratic year, the subject that dominates chatter among pollsters is Obama's stubbornly slim lead.

If there is a primary explanation as to why the race has remained close this summer, it is that Obama has failed to make gains overall with white voters, who still cast about three in four ballots on Election Day.

As Gore did in 2000, Obama nearly splits white women and loses white men by a large margin, according to an aggregate of polling in June and July 2008, and 2000 polling by the Pew Research Center for People and the Press.

Depending upon the week in June or July, by Gallup's measure, Obama has roughly fluctuated between splitting or, at worst, trailing by about five percent with white women. In that same period, Obama has only won between 34 percent and 37 percent of white men.

In general "” and with men in particular "” Pew's data shows that Obama's gains with young whites compared to Gore in 2000 are offset by a weakness with older whites.

Obama also seems to have hit a ceiling with Hispanics. Latino support fluctuates between 57 percent, by the latest weekly measure, to 68 percent the week before "” roughly the margin of Hispanic support that has marked the entire summer, by Gallup's measure.

What all this suggests is a general election that is much tighter than many analysts predicted and defined by far more stubborn levels of support.

As it stands, on Aug. 3 the Real Clear Politics average of national polling had 46.6 percent of the public supporting Obama, putting him narrowly ahead of McCain. Exactly two months before, on June 3, that same average had Obama at the exact same level of support "” 46.6 percent.
 
 BLACK by NATURE, PROUD by CHOICE.
Original Post
If only public polling really meant something...exit polls don't even give an accurate depiction.

I just hope that these numbers spark something in people and actually call them out to vote 11/4/08.
More bad news.

August 19, 2008

CNN poll of polls: Obama lead cut in half
Posted: 07:35 PM ET

From CNN Ticker Producer Alexander Mooney



A new CNN poll of polls shows Obama's lead is dwindling.


(CNN) "” In what could be an ominous sign for Barack Obama just days before he is formally named the Democratic presidential nominee, a new CNN poll of polls out Tuesday shows the Illinois senator's lead over John McCain has been cut in half in recent days.

According to CNN's average of several recent national surveys, Obama's lead is now a slim 3 points over the Arizona senator, 46-43 percent "” half of his advantage in a CNN poll of polls one week ago, and down from a high of 8 points in mid-July.

Election Center: Check out CNN's electoral map

The latest poll results come amid increased attacks from McCain on Obama's readiness to be commander-in-chief and the re-emergence of national security worries among voters in the wake of the Georgia crisis.

"Over the last week, we've seen Sen. Obama's lead in the poll of polls cut in half," noted CNN Senior Political Researcher Alan Silverleib. "This change was likely driven by a renewed focus on foreign policy after Russia's invasion of Georgia, as well as by Sen. McCain's willingness to launch more aggressive attacks against Obama on issues such as off-shore drilling."

A Los Angeles Times/Bloomberg poll out Tuesday evening was the latest national survey to indicate Obama's lead is dwindling, putting the Illinois senator ahead of McCain by only 2 points, well within the poll's margin of error. The CNN Poll of polls also includes new surveys from Quinnipiac and Gallup.

But the recent downturn in the polls for Obama may not last "” the Democratic White House hopeful is headed for a week of what is likely to be overwhelmingly postive coverage as he names his running mate and officially accepts his party's presidential nomination.

"The big question now is whether Obama can successfully regain control of the campaign agenda as we head into the Democratic convention," Silverleib also said.
ER

If Billary increases his chances to win should he put her on the ticket for VP?

If he decides to go another direction what will he have to do to win, he needs a bump after the DNC convention. McCain gain ground after the forum a few days ago.

Do you think reports like this affect what voters think of Obama?

Barack Obama's 'lost' brother found in Kenya
These sample polls are so skewed and intentional and it only reflects the media's intent to sample specific political/demographic White Americans only.

These polls do not account for minority opinion and the MSM understands that in order to keep this race tight and maintain ratings (to keep us watching), they will keep putting out this garbage.

This is the same old tired political practice that was done during the primaries. I have no faith in this process.
quote:
Originally posted by Cholly:
These sample polls are so skewed and intentional and it only reflects the media's intent to sample specific political/demographic White Americans only.

These polls do not account for minority opinion and the MSM understands that in order to keep this race tight and maintain ratings (to keep us watching), they will keep putting out this garbage.

This is the same old tired political practice that was done during the primaries. I have no faith in this process.


Cholly, the polls should not be this close, BHO should be up by double digits, I saw a CNN report on BHO polling and it reported that BHO is under performing because most voters want a Democrat in the White House but the polls are not reflecting well for Obama.

I tell you what he needs to hire ME to advise him because the fukkin pen-heads he is listening to don't have a fukkin clue. I am getting a bit pissed how he handled those elementary questions in the past forum and some of his platform points are not clear and not practical. He is always behind when events happen and McCain is constantly beating him to the punch on energy and the events regarding Russia.

This is easy stuff for a smart guy like him but for some reason he appears unsure and not giving concise policy on these issues.

I am afraid he is listening to political and social ideologues who are just people who need a guide to get to one point to another, ideologues are not dynamic thinkers they are just parrots. No matter what is presented to them, they parrot the same bullshyt answers from their ideologue playbook, BHO needs to run them narrow minded robots off and respond according to what is best for all Americans.
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quote:
Originally posted by Momentum:
quote:
Originally posted by Cholly:
These sample polls are so skewed and intentional and it only reflects the media's intent to sample specific political/demographic White Americans only.

These polls do not account for minority opinion and the MSM understands that in order to keep this race tight and maintain ratings (to keep us watching), they will keep putting out this garbage.

This is the same old tired political practice that was done during the primaries. I have no faith in this process.


Cholly, the polls should not be this close, BHO should be up by double digits, I saw a CNN report on BHO polling and it reported that BHO is under performing because most voters want a Democrat in the White House but the polls are not reflecting well for Obama.

I tell you what he needs to hire ME to advise him because the fukkin pen-heads he is listening to don't have a fukkin clue. I am getting a bit pissed how he handled those elementary questions in the past forum and some of his platform points are not clear and not practical. He is always behind when events happen and McCain is constantly beating him to the punch on energy and the events regarding Russia.

This is easy stuff for a smart guy like him but for some reason he appears unsure and not giving concise policy on these issues.

------------------------------------------------

Mo, think about it, Obama is "RWB" (Running While Black) and I did not expect double-digits leads during the primaries and I don't expect them now. This is both the Republicans and the media's game, appeal directly to conservative White bread Americans and make Obama less appealing no matter what he does.

Since the General, every word, phrase, campaign speech, foreign country visit, whatever, has been systematically microscoped, broken down and microscoped to create negativity. Why do you think that McCain comes out and runs negative Obama ads every day? McCain said in the beginning that he wanted a positive campaign, he lied.

During the forum, the intention was personal faith based views, your personal view, not campaign speak, Obama did exactly what he was supposed to do and he was wrong for that? He did not look directly at the audience. So?

On the other hand, McCain choose not to do that and follow the rules. He purposely pandered to the crowd, deflected questions and did not directly answer questions. Just saying "yes" and "no" (trying to be direct) and using soundbites is not an answer. McCain has no specifics. Keep in mind that the Reverend & the crowd are both Republican. That "cowboy" way of responding is exactly what Bush/Chaney has done for eight years and this is why we are in this shiggity.

After the forum, now the TV political pundits weight in. McCain won, he was more direct, Obama was too thoughful blah, blah, blah, When did being smart, thoughtful and visionary with answering questions a bad thing?

After the pundits are done praising McCain and beating up Obama, let go out and do some polling and and focused only on those conservative White Americans (not Blacks, not Hispanics etc) to enhance McCain but downgrade Obama. Result? Tight poll numbers and a good week for McCain. It's all bulls+it.

I agree with you, Obama's team need to do a much better job against McCain & the Republican machine and beat them to the punch. I always thought that Obama needed a set of "Black Eyes",(example: Roland Martin or Jesse Jackson Sr.) in his political inner circle from the beginning to navigate and keep him and his team abreast and aware of stuff like this.

Until November, this is how it is going to be.
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Cholly, I agree with you to a point. BHO need to talk the right stuff when he is on stage and he needs to stop with those word whiskers, ohhh, hmmm, oooo, and get to the point. And I was disappointed with his use of the teleprompter when he was giving his speech on the Russia vs Georgia stuff, it makes him look robotic.

Look, he is the first brother with a real shot in getting into the white house, he will be micro scrutinized especially during these more difficult economic and geo-political times ahead, voters need to know if he has what it takes to get us through them.

When a question like, "what Christ means to you?" is thrown down the middle of the plate he needs to tag it for a Home Run, not hitting it for an infield out. There are a number of glowing things he could have said while connecting to Judeo-Christian values of the country with that question.

On energy, he needs to be practical in his approach not ideological because that in itself will run off votes. Voters need to know if he is wise and pragmatic in dealing with these huge issues we have. He needs to connect with regular people, moms, pops and pocket book issues, not high-minded pen heads.

He needs my advice! I swear sometimes a more an education a person gets the more disconnected they become.
quote:
Originally posted by Momentum:
ER

If Billary increases his chances to win should he put her on the ticket for VP?


Absolutely!! As I said in MBM's Commentary, I think that that ticket is a/the surefire win for the Democrats. Hands down. Anything else is speculation, hope and prayer. And I'll take the bird in the hand over the two in the bush any day!

Hillary has her hand on the pulse of the middle-America White vote count that Obama needs and probably can't win without. If he turns his back on that, I think it would make his run to the White House a whole lot more difficult than it needs to be.

quote:
If he decides to go another direction what will he have to do to win, he needs a bump after the DNC convention. McCain gain ground after the forum a few days ago.


I really don't know, Momentum. 19 I think most people are pretty fixed on who they plan or want to vote for in November. And unless Obama does something really good or McCain does something really bad, I don't see a lot of movement one way or the other to create a big bump for Obama to gain a whole lot of additional ground.

For the most part, Obama repeats himself ad nauseum (in stump speeches) and has said what he has to say numerous times over. What different could he say at the Convention what would make voters see him in a different light? That's not to say what he has to say isn't dynamic ... it's just (unfortunately) warmed over. sck

Also, as Noah used to say, and is very, very important ... General Election day is ONE day ... make or break ... do or die on that ONE day!! Anything can (and will) happen on that one day, (including whatever cheap tricks and cheating the Repubs use this time around). A mere 1-2 week "bump" this far out in the game would probably not sustain him to/through Election Day.

quote:
Do you think reports like this affect what voters think of Obama?

Barack Obama's 'lost' brother found in Kenya


I certainly hope not. I don't think the affect would be positive. Except maybe to Black people if he were to help his brother out in some way. 19
quote:
Originally posted by Cholly:

I agree with you, Obama's team need to do a much better job against McCain & the Republican machine and beat them to the punch. I always thought that Obama needed a set of "Black Eyes",(example: Roland Martin or Jesse Jackson Sr.) in his political inner circle from the beginning to navigate and keep him and his team abreast and aware of stuff like this.


Obama does have those "Black Eyes" in his circle. But, I think 1) those eyes are clouded by ambition, first and 'Blackness" second; and 2) they are not as 'inner' as the White advisers that surround him and guide him most of the time.

The best pair of "Black eyes" he has are his wife's. Michelle could tell him all he needs to know about how to best connect/deal with/appease Black voters. But, (fortunately/unfortunately 19) that's not even necessary because Barack has enough Black support ... pretty much all of it that he can get!!

It's White voters he needs to appeal to. Polls like these and the forum he just appeared at don't seem to be helping that appeal much, though. And that's the problem.
quote:
Originally posted by Momentum:
Cholly, I agree with you to a point. BHO need to talk the right stuff when he is on stage and he needs to stop with those word whiskers, ohhh, hmmm, oooo, and get to the point. And I was disappointed with his use of the teleprompter when he was giving his speech on the Russia vs Georgia stuff, it makes him look robotic.

Look, he is the first brother with a real shot in getting into the white house, he will be micro scrutinized especially during these more difficult economic and geo-political times ahead, voters need to know if he has what it takes to get us through them.

When a question like, "what Christ means to you?" is thrown down the middle of the plate he needs to tag it for a Home Run, not hitting it for an infield out. There are a number of glowing things he could have said while connecting to Judeo-Christian values of the country with that question.

On energy, he needs to be practical in his approach not ideological because that in itself will run off votes. Voters need to know if he is wise and pragmatic in dealing with these huge issues we have. He needs to connect with regular people, moms, pops and pocket book issues, not high-minded pen heads.

He needs my advice! I swear sometimes a more an education a person gets the more disconnected they become.

------------------------------------------------
Maybe you can be those set of "Black Eyes" I am talking about.

The "ohhh, hmmm, oooo", that's the way Obama reflects and speaks and there is nothing (not at this point) that you can do about it now. Years ago, I attended a Supply/Logistics course and during a class on public speaking, we conducted mannerisms sessions called Left Side/Right Side.

Right side refers to physical traits/movements when you talk or give a speech, things such as how you stand, do you wring your hands, gesture with your hands when you speak, do you roll your eyes, tap your feet etc.

Left side refers to word and phrasing when you give a speech or when you speak. Do you say um, aah, like, and, well, ok, you know, etc.

All these things are naturally done completely unnoticed by the person speaking. During the speech, one person counts how many times the physical traits are repeated & the other counts the voice traits. A third person keeps time. Some people repeated voice traits more than 100 times during a five minute speech. At the end of your speech, you are critiqued. I do it, you do it too. There is really no help for Obama here.

How do you answer a question like "What Christ means to you" and satisfy everbody? You can't.

What about McCain definition of what is rich? He had no answer, instead he said (trying to be funny), "let just say 5 million". Come on. So that means that people who make 3 million are poor?

As I stated before, people are allowing the MSM to determine your decisions and makes your choices.
quote:
Originally posted by EbonyRose:
quote:
Originally posted by Cholly:

I agree with you, Obama's team need to do a much better job against McCain & the Republican machine and beat them to the punch. I always thought that Obama needed a set of "Black Eyes",(example: Roland Martin or Jesse Jackson Sr.) in his political inner circle from the beginning to navigate and keep him and his team abreast and aware of stuff like this.


Obama does have those "Black Eyes" in his circle. But, I think 1) those eyes are clouded by ambition, first and 'Blackness" second; and 2) they are not as 'inner' as the White advisers that surround him and guide him most of the time.

The best pair of "Black eyes" he has are his wife's. Michelle could tell him all he needs to know about how to best connect/deal with/appease Black voters. But, (fortunately/unfortunately 19) that's not even necessary because Barack has enough Black support ... pretty much all of it that he can get!!

It's White voters he needs to appeal to. Polls like these and the forum he just appeared at don't seem to be helping that appeal much, though. And that's the problem.



whether or not those eyes are black...dude needs some fresh eyes...perhaps some non elite chicagoan eyes?

re: Michelle...uh, no.... she defended all them black men ain't ish speeches as "Barack has a personal story, he was deeply affected and he has been talking about this for a long time"...and her favorite phrase is "Barack will never let you go back to the same old ways but you must do your part"

I commend her for being ride or die and defending her man to the nth degree, as a wife should

but she is too close

you must look beyond Mama Michelle for fresh eyes...
quote:
Originally posted by Cholly:

As I stated before, people are allowing the MSM to determine your decisions and makes your choices.



How so?
quote:
It's White voters he needs to appeal to.


So they (and you) say... So what's the problem? He's been making a concerted effort since the Penn. Primary when Miss Hillary told him and all the media that he had a problem with hard working... er... White working class voters some of which have said outright they ain't voting for his Black azz.

And so the MSM plays the same game they played during the primaries and concoct this story that Obama isn't doing so good with certain voters complete with the chorus of people saying as you have that "it's White voters he needs to appeal to."

And it's even more telegraphed now...
quote:
Originally posted by Cholly:
These sample polls are so skewed and intentional and it only reflects the media's intent to sample specific political/demographic White Americans only.

These polls do not account for minority opinion and the MSM understands that in order to keep this race tight and maintain ratings (to keep us watching), they will keep putting out this garbage.

This is the same old tired political practice that was done during the primaries. I have no faith in this process.


Cholly...a freind of ine on the Obama campaign said the same thing...he stated that the electoral map favors Obama big-time....I think the media is out to set perceptions.....and someone needs to slap Hannity's stupid racist azz..
quote:
Originally posted by Kevin41:
quote:
Originally posted by Cholly:
These sample polls are so skewed and intentional and it only reflects the media's intent to sample specific political/demographic White Americans only.

These polls do not account for minority opinion and the MSM understands that in order to keep this race tight and maintain ratings (to keep us watching), they will keep putting out this garbage.

This is the same old tired political practice that was done during the primaries. I have no faith in this process.


Cholly...a freind of ine on the Obama campaign said the same thing...he stated that the electoral map favors Obama big-time....I think the media is out to set perceptions.....and someone needs to slap Hannity's stupid racist azz..


The Fairness Act is way overdue! Conservative radio is propaganda for whoever is Republican. No matter how bad Bush is they never beat his ass down like they do Obama 3 hours a day on every talk radio show. Hannity and others are trying their best to incite hatred for Obama.
quote:
I think the media is out to set perceptions....


They've been doing that the entire campaign since before the first primary...
quote:
Originally posted by negrospiritual:
quote:
Originally posted by Cholly:

As I stated before, people are allowing the MSM to determine your decisions and makes your choices.



How so?

------------------------------------------------
How so? By focusing on the uninformed and the White American fence riders. The MSM truly believe that they have the pulse of their viewers and their opinions will make up their viewer's minds. That'e why they employ these fools.

The Pat Buchanans, Sean Hannity's and Rush Limbaugh's of MSM who feed negativity and "code" 24/7 to their White bread conservative base who really can't think for themselves.

Polling during this election is all about systematically gauging White America and raising/keep the race issue alive & well and no other race is included in this process.

The illusion? Viewers/readers think that polls percentages reflect all races of people.

Remember? Who controls the MSM.....White people. They do it everyday and tell you they aren't so you buy it.
------------------------------------------------
Here is an example of how this bulls+it works:

I was watchng a show called E:60 on ESPN last night at 7:00 pm and they had a segment about Reggie Love, Obama's "Body Man" and personal assistant. During the 15 minute piece, which focused on Reggie Love and his life story, the reporter asked Obama what are some of the contributions that Reggie has brought to your campaign. Obama stated his professionalosn, his knowledge, his organizational skills etc but Obama also said that "when it comes to music on my Ipod, I have introduced Reggie to Stevie Wonder, Marvin & others while Reggie has introduced me to Jay Z and L'il Wayne so i don't look too much like a fuddy duddy".

On CNN's Anderson Cooper at 10:00 pm, they ran a segment of that same story and the 30 second clip that they used for the segment was the one with Obama referencing Jay Z and L'il Wayne.

No problem right? For you. no, but for that White Voter out there sitting at home watching TV, what did he/she hear, Jay Z & L'il Wayne.

White conservation or thought process:

That Obama listens to Jay Z & L'il Wayne? Aren't those them gangsta rappers? He listens to that foolishness? Honey, I've made up my mind, I ain't voting for that n+gger!

That how thw sh+t works and they slide it right under the table 24/7 and you can't call them on it and if you do: you know the drill.
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quote:
Originally posted by Momentum:
quote:
Originally posted by Kevin41:
quote:
Originally posted by Cholly:
These sample polls are so skewed and intentional and it only reflects the media's intent to sample specific political/demographic White Americans only.

These polls do not account for minority opinion and the MSM understands that in order to keep this race tight and maintain ratings (to keep us watching), they will keep putting out this garbage.

This is the same old tired political practice that was done during the primaries. I have no faith in this process.


Cholly...a freind of ine on the Obama campaign said the same thing...he stated that the electoral map favors Obama big-time....I think the media is out to set perceptions.....and someone needs to slap Hannity's stupid racist azz..


The Fairness Act is way overdue! Conservative radio is propaganda for whoever is Republican. No matter how bad Bush is they never beat his ass down like they do Obama 3 hours a day on every talk radio show. Hannity and others are trying their best to incite hatred for Obama.


this might be far fetched, but i'm starting to think some of these shootings, like the guy who shot up the liberal church people, and the democratic party head in arkansas, are the result of indoctrination from these right wing nut job radio hosts

and it's not just 3 hours...it's 3 hours each from Limbaugh, Hannity, Beck, and not to mention the 1-hour formats of lesser nutcases like Savage and Levin..

everyday all day they are calling liberals and democrats AND black people, evil, communists, marxists, socialists....and most of all saying stuff like

"they don't want hard working people like you and me to have freedom, my friends..." "they don't think we're smart enough to know the truth", "they want us to be a communist nation", "they want to take everything you've worked hard for" yada yada yada

They are inciting not only anti-obama sentiment, but indoctrinating pure hatred for anything that isn't right wing nut flavor

they are convincing people that "libs", "dems" and at times blacks are a threat to them...


Obama needs something to counteract this. what would be effective?
It is a little late to counteract that drumbeat, I mean the folk it is gonna make crazy probably already are. But I think he is doing the right thing, in the battleground state he is blitzing McCain with attack ads and still taking the 'high' road on the national ads.

Lets see how this plays out in the polls (although the polls are always kind of suspect to me).
quote:
Originally posted by Kevin41:
quote:
Originally posted by Cholly:
These sample polls are so skewed and intentional and it only reflects the media's intent to sample specific political/demographic White Americans only.

These polls do not account for minority opinion and the MSM understands that in order to keep this race tight and maintain ratings (to keep us watching), they will keep putting out this garbage.

This is the same old tired political practice that was done during the primaries. I have no faith in this process.


Cholly...a freind of ine on the Obama campaign said the same thing...he stated that the electoral map favors Obama big-time....I think the media is out to set perceptions.....and someone needs to slap Hannity's stupid racist azz..


I agree with you, Cholly, that most polls do not reflect the opinions of minorities. That's my pet peeve #1. No. 2 is that, even if it's only or mainly White folks they're polling, I don't believe you can get an accurate count from 1,000 people on the opinion of a population of 300 million! Eek Common sense tells you that you're leaving somebody (and their opinions) out of the loop.

Whether or not how these polls reflect the general overall White opinion is a good thing or a bad thing is still questionable to me. Perhaps knowing where they stand (without it being clouded by minority opinion) is good. Perhaps the fact that it is not an actual accounting of 'their' opinion is bad. 19

But as far as actual voting in this country is concerned, I think it should be noted that: According to the Census Bureau, there are 2 White people for every 1 of everybody else in the entire country combined!! Eek

Statistically speaking, there are also about double the number of eligible White voters than there are for all other ethnic groups (a large number of Hispanics and millions of Black people do not have the legal right to cast a vote). Also statistically-speaking (and historically-speaking as well), more of those eligible White voters actually do go out and vote.

All of that negative impact for Democrats has been usurped in this election due to Obama's ability to get normally non-voting people into the voting booth. (young, old, Black, Hispanic, otherwise-non-interested, etc.)

I truly do not believe an Obama win can happen from normal/ordinary voting patterns. He needs the numbers in his favor to outweigh those patterns. His message will not resonate into votes (which is a damn shame, 'cause it's the only intelligent message the American people have gotten). But, it's not good enough. White people are going to be White people. It's everybody else that will have to overwhelming step up to the plate and add to the White votes he collects ... we cannot beat them on our own, though.
quote:
I don't believe you can get an accurate count from 1,000 people on the opinion of a population of 300 million!


That's rich! 20
quote:
Originally posted by jlokes:
quote:
(a large number of Hispanics and millions of Black people do not have the legal right to cast a vote)


Why not

Selective legalism.
quote:
Originally posted by jlokes:
quote:
(a large number of Hispanics and millions of Black people do not have the legal right to cast a vote)


Why not


Millions of Hispanics here are not U.S. nor naturalized citizens. And millions of African Americans have had their voting rights terminated by discriminatory disenfranchisement laws perpetuated by this country's (in)justice system.
quote:
Originally posted by Momentum:
Cholly, the polls should not be this close, BHO should be up by double digits, I saw a CNN report on BHO polling and it reported that BHO is under performing because most voters want a Democrat in the White House but the polls are not reflecting well for Obama.

I tell you what he needs to hire ME to advise him because the fukkin pen-heads he is listening to don't have a fukkin clue. I am getting a bit pissed how he handled those elementary questions in the past forum and some of his platform points are not clear and not practical. He is always behind when events happen and McCain is constantly beating him to the punch on energy and the events regarding Russia.


Because a lot of Obama's advisors were 1996 Clinton's advisors when he ran for a second term. Their idea of winning for a Democrat is to get the Democrat to win the support of progressives, liberals and Minorities early on in the election race and then constantly move further to the Right as the race goes along. Near election time the candidate will basically be a moderate Republican and they feel that is their best chance to get elected, by not pissing off anyone on the Right and keeping more progressive-minded voters at arm's length to not piss off Republican voters, midwestern and southern Whites or conservative Evangelicals. Al Gore and John Kerry took the same approach in 2000 and 2004.

That's the Democrat's only strategy. Promise change and then turn Republican to get elected and continue to vote the way the Republicans do after being elected.

quote:
I am afraid he is listening to political and social ideologues who are just people who need a guide to get to one point to another, ideologues are not dynamic thinkers they are just parrots.


I wouldn't call these people ideologues. These people are very pragmatic and are willing to make all sorts of concessions to the Republicans. Ideologues don't bend. They never say die. They never give up their ideas or listen to the counter-points of other people, they simply continue to march ahead with their pre-determined plans and ideas. Obama's people are doing anything but that. They keep becoming more and more conservative to avoid pissing off any White voters not on the coasts. Ideologues are the same from Day 1 to Day 10,000, they don't change to win votes.
quote:
Originally posted by negrospiritual:
this might be far fetched, but i'm starting to think some of these shootings, like the guy who shot up the liberal church people, and the democratic party head in arkansas, are the result of indoctrination from these right wing nut job radio hosts

and it's not just 3 hours...it's 3 hours each from Limbaugh, Hannity, Beck, and not to mention the 1-hour formats of lesser nutcases like Savage and Levin..

everyday all day they are calling liberals and democrats AND black people, evil, communists, marxists, socialists....and most of all saying stuff like

"they don't want hard working people like you and me to have freedom, my friends..." "they don't think we're smart enough to know the truth", "they want us to be a communist nation", "they want to take everything you've worked hard for" yada yada yada

They are inciting not only anti-obama sentiment, but indoctrinating pure hatred for anything that isn't right wing nut flavor

they are convincing people that "libs", "dems" and at times blacks are a threat to them...


You forgot Lou Dobbs, Bill O'Reilly and Pat Buchanan. Wink

Since Curious George has been in office, anti-minority hate crimes have been on the rise each year:

http://www.democracynow.org/2007/11/14/hate_crimes_symbolic_and_violent_on

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/7103244.stm

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/chronic...97/09/09/MN11837.DTL

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/chronic...1/04/13/MN221466.DTL

http://www.csmonitor.com/2005/0603/p03s01-ussc.html

There was also a rise in hate crimes under Richard Nixon, Ronald Reagan and George H.W. Bush's terms. It seems that since the 60's, every time a Republican is in office it emboldens the racists in the woodwork across America to come out of the closet so-to-speak and be more open about their racism and act on it. It gives them a sense of "Dem evil Communists and damed minorities is out ta get me and all I've worked for but one of ours is in office. God bless Amurika, praise da Lard and pass the ammunition. Yee-hoo!!!" *cocks gun and plans to go after non-white, Muslim or gay neighbor or next non-white "tresspasser"*

I honestly think that's what all the right-wing conservative complaining about "PC [politically correct] culture" was about during the 90's. Some racial progress was made during the 90's and the right-wing blamed political correctness and Billl Clinton for it, which is part of why they resent him so much to this day. They felt Minorities gained too much at their [white male] expense, particularly with more women in the workplace, Affirmative Action and "quotas" and 'illegal immigration'. That's why so many of them couldn't wait to elect a good ole' country boy who they knew would be having none of that. Since the 2000's, notice there has been a huge upswing on TV, media and the Internet of the "anti-political correctness" movement? Notice a lot of it involves making more racist jokes, Muslim jokes and gay jokes while claiming they're "just joking" or simply telling you "get over it"?
The media...corporate media...has swung its influence...its power...to Senator McCain.

More accurately, they have swung their power against Senator Obama.

We must...simply...swing back.

Register to vote.

Make our voices heard!!!!!!!

AND VOTE!!!

DON'T JUST WEAR T-SHIRTS!!!

AND BASEBALL CAPS!!!!!!

ENCOURAGE OTHERS TO REGISTER

AND VOTE!!!!!!!!!!!

PEACE

Jim Chester
quote:
Originally posted by EbonyRose:
quote:
Originally posted by jlokes:
quote:
(a large number of Hispanics and millions of Black people do not have the legal right to cast a vote)


Why not


Millions of Hispanics here are not U.S. nor naturalized citizens. And millions of African Americans have had their voting rights terminated by discriminatory disenfranchisement laws perpetuated by this country's (in)justice system.

If you are a citizen, i am pretty sure you can vote.

I really want to see and hear the million of black Americans that are not allowed to vote.
quote:
Originally posted by EbonyRose:
Do you drink heavily? Confused


As a matter of fact i do. I am fucked up right now

Have you never studied history ?

The whole point of this country is to take care of your own.

If i have the money to put my niece through college i can, if i don't have the the money she is fucked.

Not a hard concept.

Why is personal responsibility so hard to grasp.
quote:
Originally posted by jlokes:
quote:
Originally posted by EbonyRose:
Do you drink heavily? Confused


As a matter of fact i do. I am fucked up right now

Have you never studied history ?

The whole point of this country is to take care of your own.

If i have the money to put my niece through college i can, if i don't have the the money she is fucked.

Not a hard concept.

Why is personal responsibility so hard to grasp.


Just stop with the "personal responsibility" plug. You right-wingers, libertarians, conservatives - whatever you want to call yourself - kill me with that nonsense. I deal with a joker like you everyday. Quick to galvanize personal responsibility as if the only people capable of such function are white, conservative Christians. Always espousing the only role the government should play in the lives of it's citizens is the military. Other than that people are out of luck. Perhaps you should contact your republican representatives and ask them to quit the government they claim they hate so much.
quote:
Originally posted by Dissident:
quote:
Originally posted by jlokes:
quote:
Originally posted by EbonyRose:
Do you drink heavily? Confused


As a matter of fact i do. I am fucked up right now

Have you never studied history ?

The whole point of this country is to take care of your own.

If i have the money to put my niece through college i can, if i don't have the the money she is fucked.

Not a hard concept.

Why is personal responsibility so hard to grasp.


Just stop with the "personal responsibility" plug. You right-wingers, libertarians, conservatives - whatever you want to call yourself - kill me with that nonsense. I deal with a joker like you everyday. Quick to galvanize personal responsibility as if the only people capable of such function are white, conservative Christians. Always espousing the only role the government should play in the lives of it's citizens is the military. Other than that people are out of luck. Perhaps you should contact your republican representatives and ask them to quit the government they claim they hate so much.


thanks

And I wish people who keep pulling that "personal responsibility" plug would stop acting as if structural change (particularly progressive or radical structural change) is mutually exlcusive to/incompatible with personal responsibility. Or as if people calling for progressive or radical change generally don't believe in or call for personal responsibility.

People who do that "personal responsibility" chant as if it's mutually exclusive with structural change have an agenda most of the time: to leave the inequal and hierarchical status quo intact and narrow down poverty, discrimination and lack of privilege to some kind of personal failing. The meritocracy myth is a way of saying "The system is fine/just/perfect/natural/whatever, you're just a failure for not being at the top."
quote:
Originally posted by Empty Purnata:
quote:
Originally posted by Dissident:
quote:
Originally posted by jlokes:
quote:
Originally posted by EbonyRose:
Do you drink heavily? Confused


As a matter of fact i do. I am fucked up right now

Have you never studied history ?

The whole point of this country is to take care of your own.

If i have the money to put my niece through college i can, if i don't have the the money she is fucked.

Not a hard concept.

Why is personal responsibility so hard to grasp.


Just stop with the "personal responsibility" plug. You right-wingers, libertarians, conservatives - whatever you want to call yourself - kill me with that nonsense. I deal with a joker like you everyday. Quick to galvanize personal responsibility as if the only people capable of such function are white, conservative Christians. Always espousing the only role the government should play in the lives of it's citizens is the military. Other than that people are out of luck. Perhaps you should contact your republican representatives and ask them to quit the government they claim they hate so much.


thanks

And I wish people who keep pulling that "personal responsibility" plug would stop acting as if structural change (particularly progressive or radical structural change) is mutually exlcusive to/incompatible with personal responsibility. Or as if people calling for progressive or radical change generally don't believe in or call for personal responsibility.

People who do that "personal responsibility" chant as if it's mutually exclusive with structural change have an agenda most of the time: to leave the inequal and hierarchical status quo intact and narrow down poverty, discrimination and lack of privilege to some kind of personal failing. The meritocracy myth is a way of saying "The system is fine/just/perfect/natural/whatever, you're just a failure for not being at the top."


I love how 'personal responsibility' NEVER applies to corporate subsidies and bailouts.

Only the poor, oppressed, and exploited are EVER supposed to take on 'personal responsibility'... How convenient...
quote:
Originally posted by Oshun Auset:
quote:
Originally posted by Empty Purnata:
quote:
Originally posted by Dissident:
quote:
Originally posted by jlokes:
quote:
Originally posted by EbonyRose:
Do you drink heavily? Confused


As a matter of fact i do. I am fucked up right now

Have you never studied history ?

The whole point of this country is to take care of your own.

If i have the money to put my niece through college i can, if i don't have the the money she is fucked.

Not a hard concept.

Why is personal responsibility so hard to grasp.


Just stop with the "personal responsibility" plug. You right-wingers, libertarians, conservatives - whatever you want to call yourself - kill me with that nonsense. I deal with a joker like you everyday. Quick to galvanize personal responsibility as if the only people capable of such function are white, conservative Christians. Always espousing the only role the government should play in the lives of it's citizens is the military. Other than that people are out of luck. Perhaps you should contact your republican representatives and ask them to quit the government they claim they hate so much.


thanks

And I wish people who keep pulling that "personal responsibility" plug would stop acting as if structural change (particularly progressive or radical structural change) is mutually exlcusive to/incompatible with personal responsibility. Or as if people calling for progressive or radical change generally don't believe in or call for personal responsibility.

People who do that "personal responsibility" chant as if it's mutually exclusive with structural change have an agenda most of the time: to leave the inequal and hierarchical status quo intact and narrow down poverty, discrimination and lack of privilege to some kind of personal failing. The meritocracy myth is a way of saying "The system is fine/just/perfect/natural/whatever, you're just a failure for not being at the top."


I love how 'personal responsibility' NEVER applies to corporate subsidies and bailouts.

Only the poor, oppressed, and exploited are EVER supposed to take on 'personal responsibility'... How convenient...


Or when they pretend to be being fair-handed by saying "I think corrupt corporations should fall, they shouldn't be bailed out" they never suggest that corporations should be required to FIX the mess they made or help out the workers and consumers they screwed over. They never suggest any democratic laws, oversights or democratic worker/consumer involvement within the company should be put in place to make sure corporations can't do things like that in the first place.

But if a working stiff did something which caused a fraction of the damage that some companies do they would be calling for the death penalty for that person.
quote:
Originally posted by Empty Purnata:
quote:
Originally posted by Oshun Auset:
quote:
Originally posted by Empty Purnata:
quote:
Originally posted by Dissident:
quote:
Originally posted by jlokes:
quote:
Originally posted by EbonyRose:
Do you drink heavily? Confused


As a matter of fact i do. I am fucked up right now

Have you never studied history ?

The whole point of this country is to take care of your own.

If i have the money to put my niece through college i can, if i don't have the the money she is fucked.

Not a hard concept.

Why is personal responsibility so hard to grasp.


Just stop with the "personal responsibility" plug. You right-wingers, libertarians, conservatives - whatever you want to call yourself - kill me with that nonsense. I deal with a joker like you everyday. Quick to galvanize personal responsibility as if the only people capable of such function are white, conservative Christians. Always espousing the only role the government should play in the lives of it's citizens is the military. Other than that people are out of luck. Perhaps you should contact your republican representatives and ask them to quit the government they claim they hate so much.


thanks

And I wish people who keep pulling that "personal responsibility" plug would stop acting as if structural change (particularly progressive or radical structural change) is mutually exlcusive to/incompatible with personal responsibility. Or as if people calling for progressive or radical change generally don't believe in or call for personal responsibility.

People who do that "personal responsibility" chant as if it's mutually exclusive with structural change have an agenda most of the time: to leave the inequal and hierarchical status quo intact and narrow down poverty, discrimination and lack of privilege to some kind of personal failing. The meritocracy myth is a way of saying "The system is fine/just/perfect/natural/whatever, you're just a failure for not being at the top."


I love how 'personal responsibility' NEVER applies to corporate subsidies and bailouts.

Only the poor, oppressed, and exploited are EVER supposed to take on 'personal responsibility'... How convenient...


Or when they pretend to be being fair-handed by saying "I think corrupt corporations should fall, they shouldn't be bailed out" they never suggest that corporations should be required to FIX the mess they made or help out the workers and consumers they screwed over. They never suggest any democratic laws, oversights or democratic worker/consumer involvement within the company should be put in place to make sure corporations can't do things like that in the first place.

But if a working stiff did something which caused a fraction of the damage that some companies do they would be calling for the death penalty for that person.


Yup... and what frightens me are people that basically are working stiffs themselves, who support the interests of their own exploiters...
quote:
And I wish people who keep pulling that "personal responsibility" plug would stop acting as if structural change (particularly progressive or radical structural change) is mutually exlcusive to/incompatible with personal responsibility. Or as if people calling for progressive or radical change generally don't believe in or call for personal responsibility.


I wish people who spout that rhetoric would get their sh*t together and stop playing with my emotions. mf play on what is has always been a hallmark of Black Nationalism/Pan-Africanism invoking "personal responsibility" and trying to dip that stuff in Blackness like they are Garvey (wait... this is EP I'm talking to... lol) saying "UP YOU MIGHTY RACE!" when they aren't even trying to take a fraction of a step in that direction... and, worse, have to manufacture an argument because of some kind of personal issues they have... whatever they are.

Then there's the dishonesty involved in their position. Like Obama, they'll claim they acknowledge that racism and said "tragic history" exists and has something to do with how things got to be how they are or whatever but they never account for or act like any of that has a consequence.

Simply, if you say racism exists then you have to account for how much it impacts even the way Black people respond to each other. A lot of Black people can understand how racism is implicated in conventional topics re: colorism and the adoption of European standards of beauty in the Black community but for some reason there's a disconnect and little or no consciousness as it relates to how racism is implicated and, more importantly, how it helps shape Black behavior in other areas.

People mouth White folks talking points about the largely mythical "Acting White" phenomenon as if a Black child doesn't get the same WHITE DOLL message about education to the extent that they actually view education as a White thing via what's promoted and supported in American culture. Like a Black child can't see how Whites, as a whole, have better schools, etc.

I'll just say it... Black people who have this thing where they play up and are quick to believe the worst about Black people in general and, no doubt, it's always other Black people and not them... They get on my fuckin' nerves with that self-loathing sh*t especially when they regurgitate racist stereotypes.

Long and short, when they engage in such self-loathing and repeat those "blaming the victim" stereotypes never considering all the factors and possibilities like anti-intellectualism isn't an American problem, like "nerds" or "geeks" aren't and weren't Whites who were ostracized for "Acting White"... like this country hasn't for centuries via "no book learning/reading allowed" slavery rules and the inferior education policies enforced during Jim Crow, the structural inequality (which didn't just vanish into thin air) didn't paint the picture that education was/is, indeed, "a White thing"...

Well, I rest my case. Some people are just content to blame Black people exclusively for things that aren't exclusively the result of what Black people "do to themselves" and some people act like they have a problem dealing with the idea Black people and Black people's behavior doesn't exists in a vacuum or on an island.
quote:
Originally posted by Nmaginate:
I wish people who spout that rhetoric would get their sh*t together and stop playing with my emotions. mf play on what is has always been a hallmark of Black Nationalism/Pan-Africanism invoking "personal responsibility" and trying to dip that stuff in Blackness like they are Garvey (wait... this is EP I'm talking to... lol) saying "UP YOU MIGHTY RACE!" when they aren't even trying to take a fraction of a step in that direction... and, worse, have to manufacture an argument because of some kind of personal issues they have... whatever they are.

Then there's the dishonesty involved in their position. Like Obama, they'll claim they acknowledge that racism and said "tragic history" exists and has something to do with how things got to be how they are or whatever but they never account for or act like any of that has a consequence.


yeah

I hate it when some self-loathing Black folks and a lot of White folks largely or totally ignorant of non-conservative Black politics act as if Black people who aren't Republicans don't believe in personal responsibility or at least hardly ever stress it. For the White people who say that shit it lets you know they probably don't know a thing about Black politicians or 'Black leaders' other than whispers and grumbles they hear from their equally uninformed (or just downright racist) White peers. Grumbles and whispers that "Oh, and you know Jesse and Al are BLACK SUPREMACISTS *wink**wink* who encourage blacks to see themselves as victims and demand handouts and special treatment from OUR [white] tax dollars!" Unfortunately even a lot of leftish White folk believe that bogus rumor. 1) That Jesse and Al, whose dicks they can't get off of, are like the Popes of Black America and Black people actually view them that way; 2) That "most Black leaders" believe in and enjoy thinking of themselves and Black people as helpless/hapless victims and widely encourage other Black people do the same; and 3) That Black activists/"leaders" and Jesse and Al supposedly hate White people and push for separatism. Apparently they can't tell Jesee/Al, Rodney King and Khallid Muhammad apart from each other or Black people in general.

And Black folk who repeat that bullshit about "black victimhood" are most often just self-haters plain and simple. That's all there is to it. A lot of them are just looking for ANY reason to dump on other Black people because they have self-loathing and racial self-esteeem issues. I've personally seen Black people (even some of whom have been friends or relatives) be very quick to think the worst of Black people even when the rumor, statistic or generalization is completely unfounded.

quote:
Simply, if you say racism exists then you have to account for how much it impacts even the way Black people respond to each other. A lot of Black people can understand how racism is implicated in conventional topics re: colorism and the adoption of European standards of beauty in the Black community but for some reason there's a disconnect and little or no consciousness as it relates to how racism is implicated and, more importantly, how it helps shape Black behavior in other areas.

People mouth White folks talking points about the largely mythical "Acting White" phenomenon as if a Black child doesn't get the same WHITE DOLL message about education to the extent that they actually view education as a White thing via what's promoted and supported in American culture. Like a Black child can't see how Whites, as a whole, have better schools, etc.

I'll just say it... Black people who have this thing where they play up and are quick to believe the worst about Black people in general and, no doubt, it's always other Black people and not them... They get on my fuckin' nerves with that self-loathing sh*t especially when they regurgitate racist stereotypes.

Long and short, when they engage in such self-loathing and repeat those "blaming the victim" stereotypes never considering all the factors and possibilities like anti-intellectualism isn't an American problem, like "nerds" or "geeks" aren't and weren't Whites who were ostracized for "Acting White"... like this country hasn't for centuries via "no book learning/reading allowed" slavery rules and the inferior education policies enforced during Jim Crow, the structural inequality (which didn't just vanish into thin air) didn't paint the picture that education was/is, indeed, "a White thing"...

Well, I rest my case.


thanks

quote:
Some people are just content to blame Black people exclusively for things that aren't exclusively the result of what Black people "do to themselves" and some people act like they have a problem dealing with the idea Black people and Black people's behavior doesn't exists in a vacuum or on an island.


appl

Yep. Violence, anti-intellectualism, obsession with objectification of women and sex, obsession with guns and gun culture, acceptance of drugs, fast daughters trying to be grown and derelict fathers aren't an American problem. They're just a Black problem. White people don't watch anti-intellectual TV programs or anti-intellectual entertainment-themed cable and network news. White people don't watch MTV, VH1 and TMZ, they sit down with their kids and watch the Science Channel and the History Channel with them after school. They don't feed their kids cold Domino's or Pizza Hut or McDonald's. They don't watch violent movies with cursing, Hollywood doesn't make those types of movies. Rock music, television and Hollywood almost never praise American outlaws (i.e. thugs), the Mob/Mafia (i.e. gangsters), fast women in bars and loose bar women (i.e. hos), smoking, drinking, ectasy use, or glorify the sex/drugs/and Rock n' Roll scene. White-owned/produced TV, movies and music don't showcase gun culture (the NRA, war movies, cowyboy and gunslinger movies and adult cartoons, shoot-'em-up movies and first-person shooter/hack and slash video games). Predominantly White TV shows, movies and music never talks frankly about sex, portrays sex or promotes sex outside of marriage. Rock/metal/pop music tells all girls to save themselves until marriage and advises men to be perfect gentleman. Rock music never has violent revenge-themed songs or dark and demonic images. That music and movies tells all teens to stay away from drugs. White girls don't get pregnant at young ages or brutally beat other White girls over boys. White kids don't use guns and shoot up their schools. White men and women don't go on spree killings or serial killing rampages. White people don't murder innocent people, except for American wars which are always just. Civilians in other countries needed killing, they were asking for it. White kids don't float by in school with C averages and disrespect the teacher in class, play hookey or smoking pot in the boy's bathroom. Nope. Just Negroes. Negroes are the only ones with problems.

Why can't you Black people just shape up and be more like White people who have all their shit together?
quote:
Originally posted by Oshun Auset:
quote:
Originally posted by Empty Purnata:
quote:
Originally posted by Oshun Auset:
quote:
Originally posted by Empty Purnata:
quote:
Originally posted by Dissident:
quote:
Originally posted by jlokes:
quote:
Originally posted by EbonyRose:
Do you drink heavily? Confused


As a matter of fact i do. I am fucked up right now

Have you never studied history ?

The whole point of this country is to take care of your own.

If i have the money to put my niece through college i can, if i don't have the the money she is fucked.

Not a hard concept.

Why is personal responsibility so hard to grasp.


Just stop with the "personal responsibility" plug. You right-wingers, libertarians, conservatives - whatever you want to call yourself - kill me with that nonsense. I deal with a joker like you everyday. Quick to galvanize personal responsibility as if the only people capable of such function are white, conservative Christians. Always espousing the only role the government should play in the lives of it's citizens is the military. Other than that people are out of luck. Perhaps you should contact your republican representatives and ask them to quit the government they claim they hate so much.


thanks

And I wish people who keep pulling that "personal responsibility" plug would stop acting as if structural change (particularly progressive or radical structural change) is mutually exlcusive to/incompatible with personal responsibility. Or as if people calling for progressive or radical change generally don't believe in or call for personal responsibility.

People who do that "personal responsibility" chant as if it's mutually exclusive with structural change have an agenda most of the time: to leave the inequal and hierarchical status quo intact and narrow down poverty, discrimination and lack of privilege to some kind of personal failing. The meritocracy myth is a way of saying "The system is fine/just/perfect/natural/whatever, you're just a failure for not being at the top."


I love how 'personal responsibility' NEVER applies to corporate subsidies and bailouts.

Only the poor, oppressed, and exploited are EVER supposed to take on 'personal responsibility'... How convenient...


Or when they pretend to be being fair-handed by saying "I think corrupt corporations should fall, they shouldn't be bailed out" they never suggest that corporations should be required to FIX the mess they made or help out the workers and consumers they screwed over. They never suggest any democratic laws, oversights or democratic worker/consumer involvement within the company should be put in place to make sure corporations can't do things like that in the first place.

But if a working stiff did something which caused a fraction of the damage that some companies do they would be calling for the death penalty for that person.


Yup... and what frightens me are people that basically are working stiffs themselves, who support the interests of their own exploiters...


Almost eerie. The number of working-class (or even middle-strata people below 'upper middle class) people who are more than willing to support pro-corporatist economic reforms and policies these days is scary. They call themselves "conservative Democrats", "Republicans", "laissez-faire free marketers", "Libertarians", "classical liberals" or whatever. I call them "dumbasses" for being chickens who vote for Colonel Sanders.

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