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Other races and ethnicities treat their respective groups similar to an exclusive club FOR MEMBERS ONLY and benefit immensely because of it ECONOMICALLY, SOCIALLY and POLITICALLY and have NO qualms about doing so because they know it's their BIRTHRIGHT...meanwhile laissez-faire negroes feel that if we do so then we are being 'racist like our oppressors' so they set out on this 'we are the world' campaign to break down racial borders....at their OWN expense...meanwhile other races maintain THEIR own integrity while exploiting Blacks open door policy.....LieDeCrytor

I suspected as much.

I have long said that the alligators...such as you have listed...that live in 'The Swamp' will die, or at least 'move on' if we would only drain the swamp.

I believe...I...believe...we who know the difference have an obligation to refuse to use the language that diminishes us.

If we do, those who don't know will wonder why, and...subsequently...lift themselves.

If we don't, those who don't will assume they are correct thereby digging themselves/ourselves deeper into the 'Slough of Dispond'.

It is our obligation to do the 'heavy lifting' that will move the language forward that is applied to us.


PEACE

Jim Chester
quote:
Originally posted by EbonyRose:

Actually, LieDecryptor ... what I am saying has everything to do with the point you are making. You simply either don't or won't or can't see your way to understanding it that way.

But, let me try to break it down for you this way: I absolutely think my ancestors would agree with me as to who was "Blacker", CT or my White friends. Because back in the day, they also had to make the same choice as a matter of survival ... i.e., if they were planning an excape, should they trust the the Black slave that would tell Massa to win favor, or the White abolitionist that would hide them from the dogs.


What I don't get is why is it that just because some Blacks feel that some whites are more sympathic to our cause...they feel the need to bestow Blackness upon them???....during the holocaust there were Nazis who helped the Jews but I still don't see them being so quick to call them Jews. Again, I guess I just have too much pride in my race to be that flexible with the definition...Using your own example.... what happened when Blacks came across those whites who only posed as abolitionists but were really slave catchers (which happened a lot) do they get their 'Black card' revoked then?....Now I'm not saying that their were no whites who were instrumental in helping my people because I know there were and to them I offer my thanks. However to then bestow my racial identity itself on them is going too far....I've helped many a white person in my day and non of them felt the need to then bestow "Whiteness" upon me and even if they did I would have graciously declined it... all while thinking that they were quite DELUSIONAL

quote:
Originally posted by EbonyRose:
The point of fact here is ... should the often talked about but never actualized "Revolution" for Black folks ever take place in this country ... there are any number of White people that I know that I would rather be standing next to me before I would trust Clarence Thomas to "have my back". 'Cause that dog would shoot me first - in the back - to save his own White privledge in a New York minute! Eek And I know that!! And you should too.


Clearly you are confusing SOLIDARITY to your cause with your racial identity..their is a difference you know...to be sure I hate traitorist Blacks just as much as the next guy...but not to the point of deluding myself into thinking that they are not still Black.

quote:
Originally posted by EbonyRose:
However ... that you would trust his Black skin - and not his mentality and the overt actions of aggression he has continuously perpetrated against you (and all Black people) - as a measure of protection against those who would wish to harm you ... I don't think I'd want to be standing next to you either! Eek


When did I ever say I trusted CT?.... I thought I made it quite clear that I totally disagree with his beliefs....But why should that translate into me denying the fact that he's Black?...Hell I got relatives that I can't stand either but that doesn't mean I need to lie about them being my kin.... what good would that do other than making me look like an idiot how is also in denial?.

quote:
Originally posted by EbonyRose:
If you weren't already a target, there'd be a big one on your back before you parted ways with your 'brotha' CT!


Again...I'm not saying that just because someone is Black I trust them... what I'm saying is that ones Blackness is not based on their political affiliations....

quote:
Originally posted by EbonyRose:
For me, the biggest mistake our people make about Blackness is that many tend to believe that someone is "obviously" Black just because there is a darkness to their skin tone.



Well I'm not one of those people because east Indians have "darkness to their skin tone" and I don't go around calling them Black...For me a Black person is one of the NEGROID race born of TWO Black parents....I believe that's pretty accurate compared to those who wish to link it to political affliations....

quote:
Originally posted by EbonyRose:
But you can scrap the thin layer of skin off with butter knife if you wanted to .. which is just about the depth of 'Blackness' in Uncle Tom.


If someone has the balls to take a butter knife and scrape off all their skin to deny their Blackness...then I say call them whatever they like because they're one crazy MOFO....

quote:
Originally posted by EbonyRose:
If you think the words "pride and integrity" in being Black .. and .. Clarence Thomas have anything to do with each other, then I owe you an apology, because I have mistaken you for someone who knew better. sck


Apparently you do owe me an apology because I never once said anything close to Clarence Thomas is proud of being Black or that I was proud of him....What I am saying is that denying the fact that he's Black is nothing but a spiteful political B.S. game that some Blacks play with themselves in order to get back at those Blacks who don't share their particular views. Haven't you ever stopped to think that denying the fact that CT is Black may be exactly what he wants?... so you are feeding his ego...My position shuts all that down by telling him NO negro you may be sitting up there on the supreme court bending over backwards to impress your white friends by denying legistlation that might benefit Blacks and then going home to cuddle up to you WHITE wife...but guess what you are STILL BLACK and you will be until the day you DIE....I'm sure that burns him up....
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Oh Good Lord. Roll Eyes

I never said the man wasn't Black.

I said his Black skin is no determiner of his "Blackness."

Again .. you apparently don't want to or are unable to understand what "Blackness" really is.

You insist on a direct tie in of one's ethnicity to define what "Blackness" is.

But, it has nothing to do with skin color or one's DNA strand.

I don't know any other way to say that any plainer than that.

So I'll just leave it there. Smile
quote:
Originally posted by EbonyRose:
Oh Good Lord. Roll Eyes

I never said the man wasn't Black.

I said his Black skin is no determiner of his "Blackness."

Again .. you apparently don't want to or are unable to understand what "Blackness" really is.

You insist on a direct tie in of one's ethnicity to define what "Blackness" is.

But, it has nothing to do with skin color or one's DNA strand.

I don't know any other way to say that any plainer than that.

So I'll just leave it there. Smile


Oh don't get me wrong ER... I understand completely that all it is you're doing is making the word "Blackness" synonymous with the degree to which someone supports Black causes or is "down for us"...that concept really isn't that hard to grasp...I get it. However, the larger question still remains why not just call BLACKS who don't support Black causes what they are...which is simply BLACKS who don't support Black causes?... and calling OTHER races who support Black causes what they are which is... OTHER RACES that support Black causes...why the need to go the extra mile and bestow the term Blackness upon them...especially when they don't ever bestow their respective racial groups upon you?

It's just like when Blacks started playing that political game with themselves by referring to Bill Clinton as the "First Black President"...but then had to eat their words when that fool starting expressing some of his true feeling about Blacks when his wife was running for POTUS..against a perceived Black man. My point is Blacks would never find themselves in these types of awkward political liaison's if they were not so quick to "give up the goods" to every OTHER race out there who just smiles in our direction and says a few flattering things about us...because we are so eager to be accepted.

I just think that Blacks would fare MUCH better if we stopped being so friendly with OTHERS when they pander to us and so vindictive to other BLACKS when they don't... the net effect of all this could still be construed as just another form of self hate...
quote:
against a perceived Black man


So what happenned to referring to people for what the are? nono

But that said:
quote:
I just think that Blacks would fare MUCH better if we stopped being so friendly with OTHERS when they pander to us and so vindictive to other BLACKS when they don't... the net effect of all this could still be construed as just another form of self hate...


appl I concur.
quote:
Originally posted by Kweli4Real:
quote:
against a perceived Black man


So what happenned to referring to people for what the are? nono


That's exactly what I'm doing Kweli...Barack is really BI RACIAL but is perceived as a Black man only..this is an accurate statement...although I'm aware that for political reasons Blacks prefer to ignor this...so I'll just leave it at that....

quote:
Originally posted by Kweli4Real:But that said:[QUOTE]I just think that Blacks would fare MUCH better if we stopped being so friendly with OTHERS when they pander to us and so vindictive to other BLACKS when they don't... the net effect of all this could still be construed as just another form of self hate...


quote:
appl I concur.


Thank You
quote:
Originally posted by LieDecrypter:

Oh don't get me wrong ER... I understand completely that all it is you're doing is making the word "Blackness" synonymous with the degree to which someone supports Black causes or is "down for us"...that concept really isn't that hard to grasp...I get it. However, the larger question still remains why not just call BLACKS who don't support Black causes what they are...which is simply BLACKS who don't support Black causes?... and calling OTHER races who support Black causes what they are which is... OTHER RACES that support Black causes...why the need to go the extra mile and bestow the term Blackness upon them...especially when they don't ever bestow their respective racial groups upon you?


Okay. Smile

I do understand but do not share your sentiment on this subject. Your point about political pandering notwithstanding, it is my belief that -- considering the fact that Black people are the most hated race of people on the planet – we should embrace meaningful offerings of friendship without the prerequisite of regarding race (i.e., Bono's personal campaign to help African people on the Continent)... and should condemn individual acts of transgressions against us (i.e, Clarence Thomas' voting record) from both without and within the Black community.

To that end, I think we'd be much better off if we took a more intellectual and unified approach towards to whom and what we give support to, instead of trying to limit ourselves by splitting such a decision strictly down racial lines.

But since you brought Bill up, let's talk about him for a moment. : )

First, let me say that as to whether or not the Clintons turned into racists during the campaign is subjective and a matter of opinion, and I have no desires of reviving that debate here, now or ever! Eek

Secondly, I can't imagine that anybody who took to calling him the "first Black president" took it seriously enough to think he was Black or anything remotely like that! Eek The term was a given to him as a figure of speech ... it was ˜tongue-in-cheek' and meant to signify his continuing acknowledgement of African America and our particular issues on a public level ... which NO President before nor since (nor any candidate in this election) has been willing to do as openly as he did.

A lot of Black folks these days are real quick to recite the negative impacts to African Americans which came out of the Clinton Administration (and, yes, there were quite a few!) But there were positives also that go unmentioned because they don't contribute to the hate party ... such as the expansion of the Black middle-class during that period, which affected millions of Black families; the increase of Federal financial aid so that more Black students were able to attend college than ever before; the appointment of more African Americans to administrative posts than any previous (or subsequent) Administration; the creation of millions of jobs that largely benefited Black workers (who as you know are always the last hired and first fired) lowering the Black unemployment rate to single digits (the lowest on record) and raised the minimum wage (with a second increase asked for, but denied).

And speaking of education ... Obama's "give a year of service to the country in exchange for tuition to go to college" agenda is in fact a rehashed/renamed/regurgitation of AmeriCorps ... a Federal program started by Bill Clinton in his first term that gave an even bigger ($4,700/year) credit to students than Obama's current plan does.

The fact is, Black people don't have a lot of friends/allies. We still don't have very many ˜people in high places' of our own and don't do much to help or support those few that are there and are actually working in our favor (i.e. the Congressional Black Caucus). IMO, especially politically speaking, it's not so much we are appreciative of the pandering of Whites because we want to be accepted ... it's because we don't have much choice, for one, and because it's such a rare occurrence. I think we appreciate being accepted ...or at least, the appearance of it, which is more than we usually get.

And race is no determiner of who may or may not stab you in the back. Just ask Ward Connerly ... who is dismantling Affirmative Action ˜for our own good'. Roll Eyes You can call him ˜brotha' if you like ... but I have other choice adjectives to describe him and others of his kind.
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quote:
Originally posted by EbonyRose:
I don't know any other way to say that any plainer than that.

So I'll just leave it there. Smile


Well I'm glad to see you've changed your mind about just "leaving it here"....welcome back...

quote:
Originally posted by EbonyRose:
I do understand but do not share your sentiment on this subject. Your point about political pandering notwithstanding, it is my belief that -- considering the fact that Black people are the most hated race of people on the planet – we should embrace meaningful offerings of friendship without the prerequisite of regarding race (i.e., Bono's personal campaign to help African people on the Continent)... and should condemn individual acts of transgressions against us (i.e, Clarence Thomas' voting record) from both without and within the Black community.


Again I completely understand what you are saying....no one is suggesting that Blacks decline anyones overtures for friendship, assistance, etc based on race...That is NOT what I'm referring to...You just seem to be morphing what in actuality is SOLIDARITY with the BLACK RACE ...to the point that you cannot distinguish the two...I'm here to tell you that they are DIFFERENT...You also seem to be repeatedly misinterpreting my acknowledgment that CT is indeed a BLACK MAN as some type of support for him which is completely laughable...

quote:
Originally posted by EbonyRose:
To that end, I think we'd be much better off if we took a more intellectual and unified approach towards to whom and what we give support to, instead of trying to limit ourselves by splitting such a decision strictly down racial lines.


Who's disputing that?....I really believe we are talking about two different issues here..you keep trying to make this into a discussion about who does and who does not "have our back"..I'm just simply referring to our RACIAL identity these things are not mutually exclusive....

quote:
Originally posted by EbonyRose:
But since you brought Bill up, let's talk about him for a moment.

First, let me say that as to whether or not the Clintons turned into racists during the campaign is subjective and a matter of opinion, and I have no desires of reviving that debate here, now or ever!


Great..and neither do I...I just brought up old Billy Boy to make a larger point which is.... that Blacks should be more circumspect regarding who we cozy up to...sure there will be those who have a genuine interest in helping us..however I think we would be wise to question their motives and find out 'what's in it for them'...we know not to trust Blacks like CT..but non Blacks with ulterior motives that inflitrate us by gaining our unconditional trust can do far MORE damage....

quote:
Originally posted by EbonyRose:
Secondly, I can't imagine that anybody who took to calling him the "first Black president" took it seriously enough to think he was Black or anything remotely like that! The term was a given to him as a figure of speech ... it was ˜tongue-in-cheek' and meant to signify his continuing acknowledgement of African America and our particular issues on a public level ... which NO President before nor since (nor any candidate in this election) has been willing to do as openly as he did.


Of course no one thought he was Black in the literal since...but from the stand point of us being comfortable enough to let our guard down and embrace him as 'one of our own' the effect is still the same...

quote:
Originally posted by EbonyRose:
A lot of Black folks these days are real quick to recite the negative impacts to African Americans which came out of the Clinton Administration (and, yes, there were quite a few!) But there were positives also that go unmentioned because they don't contribute to the hate party ... such as the expansion of the Black middle-class during that period, which affected millions of Black families; the increase of Federal financial aid so that more Black students were able to attend college than ever before; the appointment of more African Americans to administrative posts than any previous (or subsequent) Administration; the creation of millions of jobs that largely benefited Black workers (who as you know are always the last hired and first fired) lowering the Black unemployment rate to single digits (the lowest on record) and raised the minimum wage (with a second increase asked for, but denied).


Sure there were benefits to Blacks under the Clinton years...but he wasn't the only Potus that did something for Blacks...(heck LBJ signed the first civil rights bill but I didn't hear MLK call him a 'soul brother' because of it) to the extent that he was specifically looking out for our best interest we should be thankful...There is a line however and just because someone does a good deed for you does not mean you owe them your undying love and devotion for all time...Just be thankful and keep it moving..because Lord knows that whatever Clinton did for Blacks he also benefited in some way....So lets just call it even no need to call him 'Black' because of it...even in jest.

quote:
Originally posted by EbonyRose:
The fact is, Black people don't have a lot of friends/allies. We still don't have very many ˜people in high places' of our own and don't do much to help or support those few that are there and are actually working in our favor (i.e. the Congressional Black Caucus). IMO, especially politically speaking, it's not so much we are appreciative of the pandering of Whites because we want to be accepted ... it's because we don't have much choice, for one, and because it's such a rare occurrence. I think we appreciate being accepted ...or at least, the appearance of it, which is more than we usually get.


No agruments there which is why I also stress Blacks having their OWN agenda aside from this socio-economic frame work which clearly means us no good....I also believe that to the extent that Blacks have friends/allies outside of the parameters of our race we should make sure that we are receiving a proportionate amount of help from them as benefit they are getting from us. We should also stop allowing our community to be the stepping stone of people who simply want political expediency...How many times has it happened that some politician has become the darling of Black people by 'championing our causes' as they rode our backs to power..only to renig on their promises once they got to where they wanted to get?...I say Blacks start HOLDING PEOPLE ACCOUNTIBLE....why give up your goodies so quick with NOTHING to show for it?

quote:
Originally posted by EbonyRose:
And race is no determiner of who may or may not stab you in the back. Just ask Ward Connerly ... who is dismantling Affirmative Action ˜for our own good'. You can call him ˜brotha' if you like ... but I have other choice adjectives to describe him and others of his kind.


I think I already answered this...but just to reiterate once AGAIN...no one is saying that every Black person is to be trusted...The thing that I'm saying is that Blacks should stop being so nonchalant regarding their RACIAL identity. That's one of the reasons that it's so easy for men like CT and WC to function the way they do. If Blacks took more pride in our common bond which happens to be our RACE we could better deal with those of us who would seek to betray us. Just look at the so-called 'Jews' do you think they would tolerate one of their own acting in ways that was detrimental to the GROUP similar to a CT?...Hell No..that individual would be ostresized and alienated something terrible and they would do it by REMINDING that person that he was ONE OF THEM not by deluding themselves into thinking that simply because he's going against them that he was somehow less Jewish. The untapped power that Blacks have is our abilty to see ourselves as a GROUP and we comprimise this when we bestow Blackness on any and everyone with whom we find favor....until Blacks understand this they will continue to get what they get which is... those who don't mind rolling in the hay with us as a people....but when the fun is over all we have left is a good feeling but no ring on our colllective finger....
That's exactly what I'm doing Kweli...Barack is really BI RACIAL but is perceived as a Black man only..this is an accurate statement...although I'm aware that for political reasons Blacks prefer to ignor this...so I'll just leave it at that....---LieDecryptor

Most African American-Americans are bi-national....at least.

Many of us are multi-national.

Few of us remain...purely...of African nationalities.

You will notice I have avoided falling into the societal norm of racial reference.

This discussion is about race only when 'we' are involved.

The rest society discusses these issues on the basis of nationality...except those of the Jewish religion.

Senator Obama is bi-national (in terms of ancestral natihality)...e.g. Kenyan and Irish.

In terms of citizenship, he is Kenyan and American.

In terms of race he is Negro and Caucasian.

In America, he is 'black' and 'white'.

He is mostly 'black' when he is looking for a job.

He is mostly 'white' when it is convenient to others.

He is mostly 'black'...also...when it is convenient to others.

I would guarantee that if we spent as much time discussing our ethnicity, as we do in discussing our 'color', our societal circumstance would move in quantum leaps.


PEACE

Jim Chester
quote:
Originally posted by James Wesley Chester:
That's exactly what I'm doing Kweli...Barack is really BI RACIAL but is perceived as a Black man only..this is an accurate statement...although I'm aware that for political reasons Blacks prefer to ignor this...so I'll just leave it at that....---LieDecryptor

Most African American-Americans are bi-national....at least.

Many of us are multi-national.

Few of us remain...purely...of African nationalities.

You will notice I have avoided falling into the societal norm of racial reference.

This discussion is about race only when 'we' are involved.

The rest society discusses these issues on the basis of nationality...except those of the Jewish religion.

Senator Obama is bi-national (in terms of ancestral natihality)...e.g. Kenyan and Irish.

In terms of citizenship, he is Kenyan and American.

In terms of race he is Negro and Caucasian.

In America, he is 'black' and 'white'.

He is mostly 'black' when he is looking for a job.

He is mostly 'white' when it is convenient to others.

He is mostly 'black'...also...when it is convenient to others.

I would guarantee that if we spent as much time discussing our ethnicity, as we do in discussing our 'color', our societal circumstance would move in quantum leaps.


PEACE

Jim Chester



If it makes you feel better and helps you get to sleep at night believing in some "Negroes is mixed fairy tale" then knock yourself out.

Its surpising that a grown ass man is so distraught that other ethnic groups dislike him or his group, that he needs to resort to fairy tales about being "mixed" with these same groups in order to get some psychological peace of mind that he is not the outcast that he thinks he is.

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