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The New White Flight

In Silicon Valley, two high schools
with outstanding academic reputations
are losing white students
as Asian students move in. Why?
quote:
CUPERTINO, Calif. -- By most measures, Monta Vista High here and Lynbrook High, in nearby San Jose, are among the nation's top public high schools. Both boast stellar test scores, an array of advanced-placement classes and a track record of sending graduates from the affluent suburbs of Silicon Valley to prestigious colleges.

But locally, they're also known for something else: white flight. Over the past 10 years, the proportion of white students at Lynbrook has fallen by nearly half, to 25% of the student body. At Monta Vista, white students make up less than one-third of the population, down from 45% -- this in a town that's half white. Some white Cupertino parents are instead sending their children to private schools or moving them to other, whiter public schools. More commonly, young white families in Silicon Valley say they are avoiding Cupertino altogether.

Whites aren't quitting the schools because the schools are failing academically. Quite the contrary: Many white parents say they're leaving because the schools are too academically driven and too narrowly invested in subjects such as math and science at the expense of liberal arts and extracurriculars like sports and other personal interests.

The two schools, put another way that parents rarely articulate so bluntly, are too Asian.
quote:
In the 1960s, the term "white flight" emerged to describe the rapid exodus of whites from big cities into the suburbs, a process that often resulted in the economic degradation of the remaining community. Back then, the phenomenon was mostly believed to be sparked by the growth in the population of African-Americans, and to a lesser degree Hispanics, in some major cities.

But this modern incarnation is different. Across the country, Asian-Americans have by and large been successful and accepted into middle- and upper-class communities. Silicon Valley has kept Cupertino's economy stable, and the town is almost indistinguishable from many of the suburbs around it. The shrinking number of white students hasn't hurt the academic standards of Cupertino's schools -- in fact the opposite is true.

This time the effect is more subtle: Some Asians believe that the resulting lack of diversity creates an atmosphere that is too sheltering for their children, leaving then unprepared for life in a country that is only 4% Asian overall. Moreover, many Asians share some of their white counterpart's concerns. Both groups finger newer Asian immigrants for the schools' intense competitiveness.
quote:
The white exodus clearly involves race-based presumptions, not all of which are positive. One example: Asian parents are too competitive. That sounds like racism to many of Cupertino's Asian residents, who resent the fact that their growing numbers and success are causing many white families to boycott the town altogether.
quote:
At Cupertino's top schools, administrators, parents and students say white students end up in the stereotyped role often applied to other minority groups: the underachievers. In one 9th-grade algebra class, Lynbrook's lowest-level math class, the students are an eclectic mix of whites, Asians and other racial and ethnic groups...

On the second floor, in advanced-placement chemistry, only a couple of the 32 students are white and the rest are Asian. Some white parents, and even some students, say they suspect teachers don't take white kids as seriously as Asians...

Ms. Gatley, the Monta Vista PTA president, is more blunt: "White kids are thought of as the dumb kids," she says.

Cupertino's administrators and faculty, the majority of whom are white, adamantly say there's no discrimination against whites. The administrators say students of all races get along well. In fact, there's little evidence of any overt racial tension between students or between their parents.

Mr. Rowley, the school superintendent, however, concedes that a perception exists that's sometimes called "the white-boy syndrome." He describes it as: "Kids who are white feel themselves a distinct minority against a majority culture."
quote:
To many of Cupertino's Asians, some of the assumptions made by white parents -- that Asians are excessively competitive and single-minded -- play into stereotypes. Top schools in nearby, whiter Palo Alto, which also have very high test scores, also feature heavy course loads, long hours of homework and overly stressed students, says Denise Pope, director of Stressed Out Students, a Stanford University program that has worked with schools in both Palo Alto and Cupertino. But whites don't seem to be avoiding those [White] institutions, or making the same negative generalizations, Asian families note, suggesting that it's not academic competition that makes white parents uncomfortable but academic competition with Asian-Americans.

Some of Cupertino's Asian residents say they don't blame white families for leaving. After all, many of the town's Asians are fretting about the same issues. While acknowledging that the term Asian embraces a wide diversity of countries, cultures and languages, they say there's some truth to the criticisms levied against new immigrant parents, particularly those from countries such as China and India, who often put a lot of academic pressure on their children.


Original article printed in the Wall Street Journal
http://www.modelminority.com/article1061.html
Original Post
Nmaginate:

I just heard a story yesterday on NPR that said that UC Berkeley is not 50% ASIAN and growing.

From the PERSPECTIVE OF THE ASIANS (I know that you love to focus on White folks) DO YOU THINK THAT THEY CARE WHAT THE WHITE FOLKS DO?

Clearly they don't think that the Whites believe that Asians are INFERIOR as they are beating the Whites at their own game.

It seems that YOU and others are on a quest to be LOVED as Black people by White people.

The ASIANS don't give a DAMN about what others think about them. They are holding no prisoners and taking no names in what they do. The loss of Blacks at Berkeley because they were DEPENDENT on a government program was A GAIN FOR THE ASIANS who have no such dependency.

At the end of the day THEY HAVE GAINED ADMISSION into this INSTITUTION WHICH IS AT THE TOP OF THE WHITE ELITE TECHNCIAL PYRAMID. They beat "da man" at his own game.

Why de White man can say that the school "smells like curry and soy sause" THEY ARE OUT and the Asian is in. Who has the last laugh?

Who cares if you are not liked as a race?
The 'new white flight' is based in the same fear. These are people in fear of losing dominance in the community in which they live.

I think it was K41 who coined the defintion of 'white' as the default definition of American.

What happens when that 'community' perceives itself as threatened?

We already know the answer: Jim Crow.

Can they really get the top back on the boiling pot?

Well...it's all about power.

Right?

PEACE

Jim Chester
CON-Feed.... SHUT THE FUCK UP!!!

quote:
I just heard a story yesterday on NPR that said that UC Berkeley is not 50% ASIAN and growing.
And Stanford and other Cali schools should have long since been majority Asian. You're late... Catch the fuck up!!

Now, if you're intelligent enough, you can figure it out. It's anecdotal (from another forum) but it's been stated before:
quote:
Twenty years ago I recall having a conversation with some Chinese friends all of whom were third, fourth and fifth generation Americans about the admission policies of an Ivy League university we had all attended. They were miffed because they felt that the university was not admitting all the qualified Chinese students who had applied. My contribution to the conversation was that the university in question would absolutely never admit all or even a majority of the qualified Chinese students that applied because one of the school's unstated societal roles was to uphold a certain cultural hegemony and viewpoint that would be undermined if a majority or a substantial minority of the students were ethnically Chinese.
But there's more as I reflect on a comment made by Sen. Joe Biden during the UM Affirmative Action case days while he was on Hardball's (With Chris Matthews) College Tour. Sen. Biden said, Stanford did a study of sorts in the early 90's that if they'd admitted students strictly on Academic Merit the school would have been virtually all Asian. Check the stats. Throughout that whole time the Stanford was either majority White or Whites maintained the largest plurality of any ethnic/racial group or classification.

And there's reason to believe Asians weren't silent about that fact:
quote:
...many universities became alarmed at the growing Asian American student population on their campuses. So much so that once the Asian proportion of their student population reached 10%-15%, they began to reject Asian students who were clearly qualified. Soon, Asian Americans were accusing universities such as U.C. Berkeley, UCLA, Stanford, Harvard, Princeton, and Brown of imposing a quota or upper limit on their admission numbers. After several protests and investigations, these universities admitted that there were problems with these admission policies but never admitted any deliberate wrongdoing.

Soon thereafter, many conservatives and opponents of affirmative action began to argue that these Asian American students were "victims" of affirmative action, just like Whites. In other words, these Asian American students were being denied admission when other "less qualified" ethnic groups (implying Blacks, Latinos, and American Indians) were being admitted.

As many Asian American scholars note, at first this argument may sound plausible. But after careful investigation, the real issue is not that Asian students are "competing" with other racial/ethnic minority groups. Rather, the real cause of this controversy is the widespread use of admissions factors that always seem to favor Whites.

http://www.asian-nation.org/affirmative-action.shtml
So, it's clear you're here running your damn mouth again without a clue of what you're talking about. But, as long as it fits your RHETORIC... You're off and running. Even if it proves you to be twice as ignorant as anyone could have ever expected.

quote:
Who cares if you are not liked as a race?
Well, RHETORIC MAN (as alluded to above)... It would seem as if those "Asians" from that very website that I quoted the WSJ story sorta "Focus On White Folk" too. So what really seems to be your problem?

I do believe this isn't the first time you were presented with this site or this opportunity to educate your profound ignorance... all with the same rhetorical thrust and purpose you want to DENY:

TO CONSTRUCTIVE FEEDBACK:
Black people are not the helpless, unachieving, can't-do-anything-for-themselves, doormats that you are constantly alluding to... if you'll quit thinking we're sooooo pitiful, you may be able to see ways that we can improve upon our strengths and build on our achievements -- instead of browbeating us with "you're screwed up and will never amount to anything" type tactics. - signed EBONY ROSE (et al)


But more to the point:
quote:
About ModelMinority.com: A Guide to Asian American Empowerment

As diverse and rapidly changing as the society we live in, Asian Americans do not conform to any single description. Despite this, Americans reluctant to address the realities of continuing racism and white privilege have consistently portrayed Asian Americans as a "model minority" who have uniformly succeeded by merit.

While superficially complimentary to Asian Americans, the real purpose and effect of this portrayal is to celebrate the status quo in race relations. First, by over-emphasizing Asian American success, it de-emphasizes the problems Asian Americans continue to face from racial discrimination in all areas of public and private life. Second, by misrepresenting Asian American success as proof that America provides equal opportunities for those who conform and work hard, it excuses American society from careful scrutiny on issues of race in general, and on the persistence of racism against Asian Americans in particular.

http://www.modelminority.com/index.html


And, Mr. PUNK (or is it Mr. Pussy?)...
Stop FRONTIN'... You claimed to believe in TWO FRONTS?
Then what's all the [projectionist] RHETORIC for??

quote:
It seems that YOU and others are on a quest to be LOVED... by White people.
So how do you explain your many acts IN DEFERENCE? ... In other words, STFU!!!

Leave the RHETORIC at home and STFU!!

PUNK or PUSSY?? You tell me, because I'm still conflicted... and laughing too.
I mean, you're the one with this FANTASTIC SAMS view but you talk about the "quests" of someone else.
You're a freakin' joke!
Talk shit while logically defending the shit you say or.... STFU!!!
Last edited {1}
the only thing i want to add here is if asians are so intelligent, disciplined and organized why is the continent of asia so screwed up.

when asians come to this country, their bond to family, culture and community is quite profound. academic mediocrity or failure is seen as shameful...nothing less than excellence is acceptable. and i know this from relating to asian people i have known. for example, have an indian friend, who had one average semester back when we were in college. he was born in america and thus americanized so excessive partying, hanging out and cramming for examinations was the norm. when his mother saw the grades, she said he was a shame not only to family but to india. needless to say, my friend excelled from there.

black americans don't operate that way and to be honest, i wish we did...we would be better off (at least academically) for it.
black americans don't operate that way and to be honest, i wish we did...we would be better off (at least academically) for it.---Negrological

I agree.

I believe is because of pride; a sense of responsibility to your family; to your identity.

We have yet achieved that sense-of-self.

Sadly, we still insist that what we are 'black' is who we are.

Not to 'preach', but...

There is nothing to be responsibile to in 'blackness'. There is no uniqueness.

And...'black' is the basis for the construction that constrains us.


PEACE

Jim Chester
Since we're speculating... Anyone care to comment on whether we'd even have "civil rights" if we were like "Asians"??---Nmaginate

That is interesting.

I think the answer is, 'No."

What would be the issue?

Our society is based on 'color'. The system does not refer to Asians as 'yellow'. This is not to say there is no racism direct to Asians.

We all know there is.

But what would be the issue?

The arithmetic is not large enough to threaten political power.

That's what this whole thing against African American-Americans is about, after all. All the issues ultimately tie back to political power.

No, there would not have been a civil rights movement.

Always remember the comment of the lawyer (Asian) who was on the committee for the 'Discussion About Race', chaired by John Hope Franklin, who told him to 'Get over it!!!'

I know she didn't speak for all Asians, but there is an attitude there that resonates in much of the Asian population.


PEACE

Jim Chester
quote:
when asians come to this country, their bond to family, culture and community is quite profound. academic mediocrity or failure is seen as shameful...nothing less than excellence is acceptable. and i know this from relating to asian people i have known. for example, have an indian friend, who had one average semester back when we were in college. he was born in america and thus americanized so excessive partying, hanging out and cramming for examinations was the norm. when his mother saw the grades, she said he was a shame not only to family but to india. needless to say, my friend excelled from there.

black americans don't operate that way and to be honest, i wish we did...we would be better off (at least academically) for it.


Why do we continue to take denigrate ourselves? Mad bang

I, for one, partied my butt off my entire 1st semester of college and my grades reflected it. When I got my grades, I was embarassed and ashamed to show them to my parents. When I finally did, they read me the riot act and I excelled from there.

I would wager that there are far more Black parents riding Black students to achieve than we give ourselves credit for.

Just ask any child of Black parents that wanted to go to college but for whatever reason couldn't, but worked 2 jobs to afford their child the opportunity.
quote:
Originally posted by Kweli4Real:
Why do we continue to take denigrate ourselves? Mad bang

I, for one, partied my butt off my entire 1st semester of college and my grades reflected it. When I got my grades, I was embarassed and ashamed to show them to my parents. When I finally did, they read me the riot act and I excelled from there.

I would wager that there are far more Black parents riding Black students to achieve than we give ourselves credit for.

Just ask any child of Black parents that wanted to go to college but for whatever reason couldn't, but worked 2 jobs to afford their child the opportunity.


my posting had nothing to do with denigration, it was a critique based on my observations. i love black people as much as anyone here and because of my love, i'm unafraid to criticize. if you have a family member or friend going down the wrong path, are you not going to express objection and/or provide a solution?

i don't believe in attacking the social system of opression to the point of absolving my people of responsibility. YES, we have limited choices but we still have a responsibility to handle those limited choices in a dignified, productive and respectful manner. if we want to be the people we were are destined to be, we not only have to deal with social marginalization and disenfranchisement but we have to excersize our own demons and shortcomings.

i grew up in the south bronx and still go to visit family. and i'll guarantee you most of the kids i see walking around aimlessly don't have parents at home drilling home the notion of a good education. those kids aren't being told...if you're not educated you're dishonoring family and the african-american community.
quote:
i grew up in the south bronx and still go to visit family. and i'll guarantee you most of the kids i see walking around aimlessly don't have parents at home drilling home the notion of a good education. those kids aren't being told...if you're not educated you're dishonoring family and the african-american community.


Granted. And I would wager that the aimlessly wondering kids of any race/ethnicity don't have parents at home drilling the notion of good education or being told that they are dishonoring their family and community.

My love of Black people is expressed in discussing what we are doing [positive], e.g., encouraging our off-spring/youth to pursue education, and suggesting that that is the norm. I know that for me and most of my neighborhood friends, it was the expectation that we would go to school and excel.

My love for our community, however, does not include criticizing Black folk, because they are Black, for conduct that is present in other racial/ethnic groupings.

While I agree that there are things that we could do as a community that would serve to advance us, because I realize that we, just like every other community, have our share of F-Ups, as well as successes, I don't hold our community to a higher standard.

I see that as a "I beat you because I love you" mentality. And, all that accomplishes is someone getting beat.
quote:
i grew up in the south bronx and still go to visit family. and i'll guarantee you most of the kids i see walking around aimlessly don't have parents at home drilling home the notion of a good education. those kids aren't being told...if you're not educated you're dishonoring family and the african-american community.
But, NEGROLOGICAL, do you realize you assigned that behavior to "Black Americans" generally... As in MOST of us, if not ALL of us. What's problematic, IMO, is that the sentiment seems so is symptomatic. Which is part of the reason for my thread on Accumulated Knowledge.

The funny thing about all this, these supposed critiques, is how they have ignored what was plain to see in the article. ALL ASIANS AREN'T LIKE THAT... and those who are AMERICANIZED are, demonstrably, less so. But never an opportunity missed due to this weird drive to "critique" and justify it no matter what.

N-Logical, you jumped right in with the stereotyping and since you could attest to one person who fit the stereotype, you felt justified in using it to effectively berate Black People. That's what you communicated whether you intended it our not.

FYI, stereotypes work both ways. You can discredit and you can also give too much credit or overstate things, as you did.

quote:
it was a critique based on my observations.
But surely you know your observations are not universal. In other words, no matter how much "truth" there is to what you've said (about your observations from where you've grown up, and I doubt you've come to know a representative sample of ALL Black people) it is hardly true in the way you've expressed it.

For your experience, KWELI holds up his experience. Now, you want to tell me that just because KWELI observed or experienced what he did that his experience is somehow representative just because it's "based on his observations."

quote:
we have to excersize our own demons and shortcomings.
And part of our own demons is this "I beat you because I love you" mentality. BROWBEAT is more like it. All these sentiments, as "valid" as they are, are overburdened, overladen emotions that really communicates something other than "I want us to do better."

Part of our own demons (those who express these exasperated sentiments) is this magnifying of our "shortcomings" into capital offenses without referencing our situation, as it is, in context.

quote:
we not only have to deal with social marginalization and disenfranchisement but we have to excersize our own demons
But in all of our critiques and "exercising", how is it that so many of us treat those things as if they are unrelated?

The so-called phenomenon of "Acting White"... with a history where education has been deprived and an on-going situation where quality education is still being undermined... somehow we are suppose to be superhumans who jump in leaps and bounds and act as if we are uneffected by the world around us and the forces that work against us.

Obviously, few are critiquing their own critiques for the realistic expectations as opposed to the "should be" variety that takes little into account as to why things are as the are, what progress has been made and/or why more progress does or doesn't seem likely to come (fast enough).

If we're going to talk about responsibility, then where is the discussion of what it will take to realistically turn things around or TRANSFORM them, as CON-Feed would say, in the way people suggest?

See... I find that conversation lacking. So, IMO, the degree of responsibility sought by those concerned is questionable. And that, not as a mark against them questioning their Love of Black People, but questioning their (our) ability to go beyond emotional reactions to [some of] our "shortcomings" and the simplistic thinking about effective and practical solutions.

"Just Say No!" was an empty campaign. Likewise, "Value Education" hardly speaks to how to do that. How to maintain that. What it takes to do that, etc. Part of those "demons" in some of our people rests in their own lack of education... And that is intergenerational.

How many of those Asian parents have comparative educational backgrounds/accomplishments as the Black families you reference? Is it a legit comparison?

Asian parents who are doctors, etc. compared to Black parents who work at a factory if at all?

Who would you think would have the ability to hold their kids, on avg., to a higher standard? Black parents or the Asian parents?

Also, if we're going to talk about Black "People" then we have to talk collective solutions and interventions and not just individual ones.
Nmaginate:

According to THIS INTERVIEW about the hisotrical racism in the Ivy League the recent discrepancy in admissions for Asians was due to their lack of participation in ATHLETICS and extra-curricular activities as compared to other populations of students.

http://www.wamu.org/programs/dr/05/11/21.php

YOUR BLANKET statement does not capture the entire issue.

IT IS IRRELEVANT in the discussion of how BLACK PEOPLE are going to increase our numbers in such schools. You clearly don't have an answer nor a CLUE.
quote:
I know that for me and most of my neighborhood friends, it was the expectation that we would go to school and excel.


My experience was the same. It seems the contrasting experiences, as youth and as adults, determine our respective outlooks.

quote:
My love for our community, however, does not include criticizing Black folk, because they are Black, for conduct that is present in other racial/ethnic groupings.


I understand wanting our people to do better for all our sake, but it's difficult to understand how we can realistically expect to become a monolith, while at the same time admitting we are not, and haven't ever been.

quote:
While I agree that there are things that we could do as a community that would serve to advance us, because I realize that we, just like every other community, have our share of F-Ups, as well as successes, I don't hold our community to a higher standard.


Years back India's government detected the computer technology trend and made it their mission to grab a corner of that market by educating their people in the field. They were successful.

In various cities in America Black grassroots organizations are attempting to educate and inform our ethnicity to create a similar outcome --not in the computer technology field per se, but in overall empowerment. They include diverse and relatively struggling organizations like:

  • BISA...Black Women in Sisterhood for Action, it provides scholarships to deserving youth and support to older people.


  • Na'eem Cultural Institute ...a non-profit organization providing speaking and training engagements in the areas of cultural diversity, rites of passage training, alternative methods of healing, conflict resolution, violence prevention, women's issues, youth prevention programs, family planning, and job skills development.

  • BCA ...Black Culinary Alliance - "With education as the cornerstone of our mission, the BCA continues creating many of the opportunities that people of color can take advantage of and incorporate into their long-lasting career goals."


We remain ignorant of the many self-help organizations run by us and for us at our peril.
quote:
Originally posted by Nmaginate:
But, NEGROLOGICAL, do you realize you assigned that behavior to "Black Americans" generally... As in MOST of us, if not ALL of us. What's problematic, IMO, is that the sentiment seems so is symptomatic. Which is part of the reason for my thread on Accumulated Knowledge.

The funny thing about all this, these supposed critiques, is how they have ignored what was plain to see in the article. ALL ASIANS AREN'T LIKE THAT... and those who are AMERICANIZED are, demonstrably, less so. But never an opportunity missed due to this weird drive to "critique" and justify it no matter what.

N-Logical, you jumped right in with the stereotyping and since you could attest to one person who fit the stereotype, you felt justified in using it to effectively berate Black People. That's what you communicated whether you intended it our not.

FYI, stereotypes work both ways. You can discredit and you can also give too much credit or overstate things, as you did.


you missed the entire point. are you disagreeing that black people (as a whole) would be better off if there was a profound attachment to community as my indian example? and why? i'd like you to be more specific...
quote:
you missed the entire point. are you disagreeing that black people (as a whole) would be better off if there was a profound attachment to community as my indian example? and why? i'd like you to be more specific...


Absolutely, we would be better off if there were a profound attachment to community. But as Isome noted:

quote:
I understand wanting our people to do better for all our sake, but it's difficult to understand how we can realistically expect to become a monolith, while at the same time admitting we are not, and haven't ever been.


And so, I'll repeat:
quote:
I realize that we, just like every other community, have our share of F-Ups, as well as successes, I don't hold our community to a higher standard.
quote:
Originally posted by Negrological:
personally, and as a black man, i hold our community to a higher standard.


Do you think that will work? Holding us to strict standards is one thing, but a higher standard is something altogether different.

Also, and again, there are an abundance of Black organizations out there attempting to help those who seek it. As a result, any anecdotal evidence any of us can come up with is not, as Nmaginate said, a representative sampling of our collective.

The best we can do for those we see not doing anything is to keep it moving -- keep striving to do what we do as individuals and as part of a group effort. They will either get with the program, or be swept aside by the momentum.
quote:
YOUR BLANKET statement does not capture the entire issue.
WTF are you talking about?

What "blanket statement"???

PUNK..... or PUSSY?

You made this statement:
I just heard a story yesterday on NPR that said that UC Berkeley is not 50% ASIAN and growing.
... to which I said, in essence, it's been that way for a while.

WHERE IS THE BLANKET STATEMENT???

What part of my "statement" (a response to yours, explaining how it isn't a "just now" situation) is any more "blanket" than yours? Let alone "clueless" in terms of its "relevance"... seeing as how it was/is a direct statement-response to yours?

Yes!! I'm still conflicted. I don't know whether you are just a PUNK... Or if you're a PUSSY. You tell me.

You tell me exactly how clueless you are for this BLANKET shit you said:
quote:
The loss of Blacks at Berkeley because they were DEPENDENT on a government program was A GAIN FOR THE ASIANS who have no such dependency.
... or SHUT THE FUCK UP!!

That sure doesn't sound like some discrepancy relating to athletics that were overcome. And, nothing I said made a statement that was contradicted by the interview. And...

quote:
IT IS IRRELEVANT in the discussion of how BLACK PEOPLE are going to increase our numbers in such schools.
This whole thing devolved from your incessant rhetoric as you predictably used this topic as an opportunity to take pot-shots at Black people while not saying a damnd thing about "how to increase the number of Black people in [major] colleges and universities." You can highlight your statements to that effect from your original post.

That way you will help me decide whether you are A PUNK... or A PUSSY. Because you and I both know you didn't have shit to say towards an actual solution.

You see... Though I am still conflicted (still don't know if you're A PUNK or A PUSSY)... I do know, for sure, that I GOT YOUR WOLF TICKETS!!! cool
quote:
you missed the entire point. are you disagreeing that black people (as a whole) would be better off if there was a profound attachment to community as my indian example? and why? i'd like you to be more specific...
N-Logical? How do you think the "Black People would be better as a whole" point was made by you saying:

black americans don't operate that way and to be honest, i wish we did...

Umm... There was no specific references by you to some "AS A WHOLE" (whatever that's suppose to mean or however that "whole" is constituted). You spoke IN THE NEGATIVE. Not the positive. You said "WE DON'T!" "I wish we did. But we don't."

Now, seriously... When you hold someone or something else up as an example or something admirable or desired and then bemoan the idea that "We DON'T do that... (*sigh*, *sigh*)" what "point" do you think you're making? I guess all those "Woe is WE" emotions are suppose to be invisible.

What "point", again, do you think you're making by comparing, apparently, the sons and daughters of the relative "elite" among Indians, etc. with the sons and daughters of poorer, less educated Black parents?

I mean, unless your Indian friend's parents were just as poor and just as (un)educated as the parents of your friends and family you reference as living in the South Bronx then you are not only holding those Black people to a higher standard, you're holding them to a Double Standard of sorts. Not only do you expect them to do better but you expect them to do better than or just as good as people who ostensibly are from a higher socio-economic class than they are which is ridiculous.

Again, you've made quick use of stereotypes and generalizations to make a "point" which again communicates something ridiculously negative because you can't be bothered with making accurate comparisons (from like samples).

And all that is really rather ironic considering your very first point:
quote:
if asians are so intelligent, disciplined and organized why is the continent of asia so screwed up.
Now, contrast that to what you think your "point" is. See... there you are talking about Asians, Indians in this case, AS A WHOLE. In as much as we can compare African-Americans with say the Chinese or India-Indians (seeing as how Black people, Black Americans don't have a nation), when we do look at these peoples AS A WHOLE, Black American vs. India-Indians AS A WHOLE, incorporating all socio-economic classes, etc. then these "points", like yours, tend to MISS THE POINT.

You just demonstrated how you are aware of how "F-uped" India is but you still castigate African-Americans AS A WHOLE for not being comparable to the self-selected sampling of Indians that make it here to America.

Seriously... What is your point? Do Indians, in India, AS A WHOLE value academic excellence with that reflected in what they achieve even in their more degraded neighborhoods? i.e. are the poorest of Indians in India performing way above the poorest African-American?

If you don't know an answer to that then I suggest that your "point" is moot. No matter how good the intentions...

Seems to me you are comparing something like a team from a major NCAA basketball conference, e.g., to a mid-major or junior college and expecting, as a rule, for the mid-major team, a team that's not in the same relatively "elite" class, to be competitive.

Also, you're comparing African-Americans AS A WHOLE or on avg. with Indians, e.g., who represent a particular class, IMO, (i.e. not Indians AS A WHOLE) without calculating what the actual indigenuous India-Indian average is.

Then, too, the fact that India is a nation run by Indians (as opposed to America not being a country run by African-Americans) has to be factored in somewhere.

So you could be much more specific as to what you think your point is and why you think your implicit comparisons are valid.

quote:
are you disagreeing that black people (as a whole) would be better off
Did you see such a statement? Can you LOGICALLY infer that I was "disagreeing" with the idea that "Black people would be better off IF..."

NO. You and I both know you cannot. So what is all that posing for? You don't need me to validate that idea. And that thought is too ridiculous. How you can even phrase such a question and either be serious or expect me to take it seriously is beyond all logic and common sense.

Again, you don't need me to validate you or that statement. So why are you asking me to?
Nmaginate:

You are IGNORANT AS HELL.

I have to wonder what others who read your words as you hyperventilate think about you.

Do you think that your rants against me cause me to be thrown off or intimidated in some way?

I only shows me that there is a fearful little boy that is attached to the keyboard that pecks out such words.

STFU????? Come make me PUNK. You are used to ruling the roost with your supposed intelligence aren't you? You are used to talking people down when you engage with them in a conversation in person. Anybody who disagrees with you is the one with the problem. He is infected with racism or uncle-tom-ism or some other ailment. But YOU!! You are correct on all fronts no doubt.

You and a few others on this board have some BIG BALLS that are full of hormones yet you don't realize how your agressive ways only hide your IGNORANCE to the facts. The conditions on the street is of no consequence to you in adjusting your ideology. The fact that others have been more successful than YOU at "beating the system" doesn't stop you from APPLYING THE VICTIM STATUS UPON THEM.

IS IT POSSIBLE THAT THESE PEOPLE FUNDAMENTALLY DON'T THINK LIKE YOU DO AND THUS THIS IS WHY THEY ARE SUCCESSFUL AT DOING WHAT THEY DO?
*****
I maintain my stance that ASIANS who now make up 50% of the freshman class at UC Berkeley don't care that WHITE FOLKS are clearing out. THEIR CULTURE IS SELF SUSTAINING AND THEY DON'T NEED VALIDATION BY AND LARGE.

IF these white folks are "looking down" upon these Asians it is really nothing more than their LAST GRASP at attempting to hold onto some fake notions of SUPERIORITY, having lost the measure that they have been claiming for so long - INTELLECTUAL SUPERIORITY.

As with the Black Quasi-Socialist Progressive Fundamentalist does, these Whites have to resort to SOCIAL STIGMA against these Asians because they have lost out WHERE IT COUNTS.

If the Asians are FOOLISH ENOUGH to be drawn into this gravitiational pull RATHER THAN TO CONTINUE DOING WHAT THEY HAVE BEEN DOING and thus beating this opponent at his own game THEN THEY DESERVE to have their numbers decreased.

This "gravitational pull" might have them studying less and getting invovled in more social activities because they are told they need to "be more well balanced" and not so serious.

There may be gravity placed upon them because they are not familiar with the latest hit music or their ability to DANCE so they will put down their chemistry book and explore this world.

At the end of the day it is the ASIAN'S LOSS for having been drawn off course when their OPPONENT'S goal all along was NOT to "diversify" and improve their adversary - it had been to STOP HIM FROM MAKING THEM FEEL INFERIOR ABOUT THEMSELVES INTERNALLY by putting a ring in their nose and attempting to lead the Asians around. (I wonder if this sounds familiar to YOU?)
In directly addressing your rant above

quote:
And Stanford and other Cali schools should have long since been majority Asian. You're late... Catch the fuck up!!


AGAIN you make the case that they are VICTIMS OF RACISM in the past.

Well in 2005 - 50% of the FRESHMAN CLASS IS NOW ASIAN. Please tell me the RELEVANCE of the past on the students who walked onto campus THIS YEAR TO STUDY?

Do you think that the fact that many of their ancestors worked on the railroads in America and had very substandard working conditions is RELEVANT to THEIR MISSION TODAY? No doubt their ancestors could not get into Berkeley or Stanford in the past.

TODAY BITCH, TODAY. Let us talk about TODAY.

What have the ASIANS done to increase their "troop strength" at Berkeley while the BLACK STUDENTS have sustained a DEPOPULATION after having PLACED THEIR HOPE IN KEVIN'S EDUCATIONAL ADMISSIONS PLANS FOR BLACK FOLKS? WHICH OF THE TWO GROUPS ARE IN POSSESSION OF A MORE "AFFIRMATIVE ACTION" FOR ADMISSIONS? Are you really that passive? Do you only KNOW ANGER AND PROTESTS to get your way? What "protests" did the new non-White majority at Berkeley perform to achieve domination?
quote:
According to THIS INTERVIEW about the hisotrical racism in the Ivy League the recent discrepancy in admissions for Asians was due to their lack of participation in ATHLETICS and extra-curricular activities as compared to other populations of students.

http://www.wamu.org/programs/dr/05/11/21.php
See? This is why you have some serious issues... with INTEGRITY.

LEGACIES were explicitly mentioned in this INTERVIEW right along with Athletics, etc. as factors that accounted for the different admit rate between Whites and Asian-Americans.

One of the themes is this idea that Asian-Americans are "The New Jews":

quote:
The New Jews
By Matthew Yglesias

...What tends to get less attention is the extent to which the mechanisms formerly used to informally cap the number of Jewish students haven't so much been dismantled as merely redirected at Asian-Americans. All of the major departures from a strict academic meritocracy -- affirmative action, legacy preferences, athletic recruitment, emphasis on extracurricular activities, geographical diversity, etc. -- just so happen to cut against Asian applicants. As a result, just as with Jews back in the day, the Asian-Americans who wind up admitted have substantially better test scores and other academic qualifications than do the non-Asians...

http://www.tpmcafe.com/story/2005/11/7/11329/1324
Hmmm.... How come you neglected to mention anything about GEOGRAPHICAL PREFERENCES? The author, Karabel, made the link to those geographical preferences being non-meritocratic admission 'points' that were added to install a Jewish capping quota.

How come you didn't highlight the concept of "Cultural Capital" and the idea that "there isn't as much upward mobility" as people would like to believe (quoting the author almost verbatim)??

Hmmmmm..... And the author also alluded to:
quote:
Japanese, Chinese and Koreans have a reputation for doing well academically, and are generally not treated as minorities if they were born in the United States. In fact, there have been reports of "reverse discrimination" in which Asian applicants were required to have higher LSAT scores and grades than their Caucasian counterparts. In 1988, the Justice Department investigated charges that Harvard and UCLA were limiting the number of Asians granted admission. (New York Times, Nov. 20, 1988, p. A35 col. 1.) In May of 1989, Berkeley announced a change of admissions standards to correct for (among other things) an acknowledged "disproportionately negative impact on Asian Americans." (Id., May 25, 1989, at A16 col. 3.)

http://www.deloggio.com/diversty/race.htm
So, Berkeley's Asian-American admit policy/rate/percentage, contrary to your "blanket statement", had a lot to do with Berkeley dealing with how it favored Whites over Asians as well as other factors.

There was a lot of controversy over drops or plateauing of Asian-American admissions at Berkeley (and other schools) in the 80's, etc. And that's a factor in the higher percentage of Asian-American students currently at Berkeley. It was the public attention and protest over those "Hidden Quotas", more specifically the notion that Asians were superior qualifications when compared to their White counterparts that spurred a change in Berkeley's admission policies that pre-date Berkeley "scrapping" AA.
http://www.sscnet.ucla.edu/issr/paper/issr420.pdf -- pg 5 +

quote:
Berkeley has always been the preferred campus for many Asian American parents, dating back to the pre-war era. The fact that it is tuition free and is readily accessible by public transportation makes it even more attractive to the largely lower-middle and lower-class Asian American families who simply cannot afford to send their children to more expensive and distant private colleges and other UC campuses (Thomson 1986).

http://www.sscnet.ucla.edu/issr/paper/issr420.pdf


http://www-tech.mit.edu/V109/N61/hu.61n.html
quote:
CON-Feed said:

What "protests" did the new non-White majority at Berkeley perform to achieve domination?
SHUT THE FUCK UP - PART II (Part I was already listed above.)
quote:
HON. DANA ROHRABACHER

in the House of Representatives

TUESDAY, JULY 11, 1989


  • Mr. ROHRABACHER. Mr. Speaker, we continue to hear charges that many American colleges and universities have instituted discriminatory quotas to limit the number of Asian-American students in universities throughout the United States. Such quotas, if they do exist, are an affront to the idea of equal opportunity and fairness.

  • That is why Congresswoman Saiki and myself have introduced H. Con. Res. 147, a bill that puts Congress on record as opposing any discriminatory quotas in universities and colleges used against Asian-Americans. I urge my colleagues to cosponsor this critical piece of legislation.
  • The point is simply this. There would be no 50% Berkeley Asian-American population without the "protests" over the questionable White/Asian comparative admissions rate.

    Berkeley was forced to change its policies by public and institutional pressures.

    SHUT THE FUCK UP - PART III
    quote:
    1992 - Chinese for Affirmative Action file suit against the University of California, claiming that UC uses quotas to limit Asian American enrollment.
    DUMBASS!!! Just like you have to give credit to the NAACP and the Civil Rights Movement for "Changing White People" and that being how the PAST is all too relevant to the present, so too is this more recent fight against discrimination.

    Now, PUNK (and now I know it's PUSSY too) what was that you had to say about "what protests"??

    I mean, that's one really stupid ass angle. I could ask "what protest" have any of the Black students enrolled in college today had to make and pretend, like your dumbass, that that has nothing to do with (their access to higher education) the racism "in the past" that caused the CRM, etc. Those Black students, too, are prepared, capable and qualified college students.

    So? Your point?
    quote:
    Originally posted by Nmaginate:
    N-Logical? How do you think the "Black People would be better as a whole" point was made by you saying:

    black americans don't operate that way and to be honest, i wish we did...

    Umm... There was no specific references by you to some "AS A WHOLE" (whatever that's suppose to mean or however that "whole" is constituted). You spoke IN THE NEGATIVE. Not the positive. You said "WE DON'T!" "I wish we did. But we don't."

    Now, seriously... When you hold someone or something else up as an example or something admirable or desired and then bemoan the idea that "We DON'T do that... (*sigh*, *sigh*)" what "point" do you think you're making? I guess all those "Woe is WE" emotions are suppose to be invisible.

    What "point", again, do you think you're making by comparing, apparently, the sons and daughters of the relative "elite" among Indians, etc. with the sons and daughters of poorer, less educated Black parents?

    I mean, unless your Indian friend's parents were just as poor and just as (un)educated as the parents of your friends and family you reference as living in the South Bronx then you are not only holding those Black people to a higher standard, you're holding them to a Double Standard of sorts. Not only do you expect them to do better but you expect them to do better than or just as good as people who ostensibly are from a higher socio-economic class than they are which is ridiculous.

    Again, you've made quick use of stereotypes and generalizations to make a "point" which again communicates something ridiculously negative because you can't be bothered with making accurate comparisons (from like samples).

    And all that is really rather ironic considering your very first point


    you didn't answer my question.

    as for my indian friend, he grew up in queens, father died and mother had to rent out a bedroom in her apartment to make ends meet. so needless to say his family wasn't from a higher socio-economic class. when i tell you, you're missing the point, you're really missing the point.

    now please answer my original question...
    probably not...but that's a tough question to answer.---Negrological

    Wait a minute!

    Someone ask if there would have been a civil rights movement if we had the 'asian model' for community.

    This suddenly strikes me as being unlikely even accepting the suppostion on behavior.

    Our history, as a people, would still be the same. Our population impact in society would still be the same. Our impact on voting would still be the same.

    And...our color would still be the same.

    If we now add to that the improbability of a cohesive community, we have recreated the Virginia Colony of 1676 which produced the The Bacon Rebellion which was a regionl war among Europeans over a demand by the lower-class Europeans for protection against 'high-performing' colonists of unknown African ancestry.

    This resulted in a settlement assuring Low-performing Europeans that no African could ever be of greater substance than a European no matter how significant that performance.

    We have alredy 'been there'.

    So...the answer is 'Yes, as demonstated by history'.

    By the way, I just heard Limbaugh call these California parents 'Liberals'.

    I would have guessed these Simi Valley folks were 'Conservatives'; as the description seems to be running currently.


    PEACE

    Jim Chester
    And CON-Feed... Don't you dare open your damn mouth again until you deal with this bullshit you posted earlier:
    quote:
    YOUR BLANKET statement does not capture the entire issue.
    With a direct question I asked you:
    WTF are you talking about?
    What "blanket statement"???

    ...WHERE IS THE BLANKET STATEMENT???


    Your PUNK ASS is mum. SILENT, too, are you, being the PUSSY that you are, on the inherent conflict between two separate ideas you forwarded:
    quote:
  • The loss of Blacks at Berkeley because they were DEPENDENT on a government program was A GAIN FOR THE ASIANS who have no such dependency.

  • The recent discrepancy in admissions for Asians was due to their lack of participation in ATHLETICS and extra-curricular activities as compared to other populations of students.
  • So? What??
    Did Asian-Americans all-of-a-sudden start playing sports at hyper-unprecedented rates or did something happen to address those discrepancies linked to NON-MERIT based considerations?

    As always... your BULLSHIT doesn't hold up and you, being the DUMBASS that you are (speaking for RHETORIC'S sake instead of for having something to actually say that's actually based on being informed, honest or truthful), have, yet again, shown your uncanny ability to CONTRADICT yourself... and show that you can't organize information. You just spout off with a bunch of disconnected RHETORIC, too dumb to know how you're setting your own traps that your PUNK ASS will have to run from.

    Now, if you're not a punk... tell me, first of all, WHY THE HALF-TRUTH about what was said on the Interview link? And, second, tell me what does that do for your argument, citing that misleading "factoid"?

    (Note: By doing that, you went right along and made a BLANKET STATEMENT (about the discrepanies being solely linked to athletics and extra-curriculars) when you called yourself trying to say that I made, a yet unspecified, "blanket statement.")

    So, yeah... If you're not a PUNK or a PUSSY (and, now, I'm thinking you're both and then some) then you take your ass back and quote my "Blanket Statement", whatever you claimed it was and deal with the conversation from there.

    Also, PUNK... This is my thread. You said something about a "discussion of how Black people are going to increase our numbers"... Well, that's not topic here (per se) and that's not what you responded to.

    You ask some inane ass, lame ass rhetorical question (DO YOU THINK THAT THEY CARE WHAT THE WHITE FOLKS DO?) as if that's RELEVANT. You follow that shit up, after I've smacked your ass for saying some other dumb shit, with this:
    quote:
    I maintain my stance that ASIANS who now make up 50% of the freshman class at UC Berkeley don't care that WHITE FOLKS are clearing out.
    Now, you show me where somebody, anybody, especially me... tell me where I said or suggested Asian-Americans do or should "care that White Folks are clearing out" and I'll give your Scooby ass a cookie.

    See? That's the silly shit that earns you THE BEATDOWNS you get... Cause we all know, "PUNKS Jump Up To Get BEATDOWNS!" I guess you say it might as well be you, huh? CON-Feed?

    It's called... POINT & Counterpoint. You say something, if I challenge it, then you have to defend what you originally... Ummm... the actual thing I challenged. Now, list MY BLANKET STATEMENT or Shut Your PUNK ASS Up!!! scream
    quote:
    N-Logical said:

    now please answer my original question...
    Your question isn't worth dignifying.

    quote:
    are you disagreeing that black people (as a whole) would be better off if there was a profound attachment to community as my indian example?
    YOU CAN READ. Did you see disagreement? Logically, are you lead to believe I disagree? If not, then don't waste my time. If so, then please list what it was that I said that lead to your question.

    Like I said, you don't need me to validate that idea. And I won't. Either you can ask a question or make a point on what I actually said or you can find something else to talk about.

    YOU CAN READ.
    quote:
  • But surely you know your observations are not universal. In other words, no matter how much "truth" there is to what you've said... it is hardly true in the way you've expressed it.

  • All these sentiments, as "valid" as they are, are overburdened, overladen emotions that really communicates something other than "I want us to do better."
  • Don't come to me for validation. I don't do validation. You made your point. I made mine.
    Now what's the problem?
    quote:
    Originally posted by Nmaginate:
    quote:
    now please answer my original question...
    Your question isn't worth dignifying.

    quote:
    are you disagreeing that black people (as a whole) would be better off if there was a profound attachment to community as my indian example?
    YOU CAN READ. Did you see disagreement? Logically, are you lead to believe I disagree? If not, then don't waste my time. If so, then please list what it was that I said that lead to your question.

    Like I said, you don't need me to validate that idea. And I won't. Either you can ask a question or make a point on what I actually said or you can find something else to talk about.

    YOU CAN READ.
    quote:
  • But surely you know your observations are not universal. In other words, no matter how much "truth" there is to what you've said... it is hardly true in the way you've expressed it.

  • All these sentiments, as "valid" as they are, are overburdened, overladen emotions that really communicates something other than "I want us to do better."
  • Don't come to me for validation. I don't do validation. You made your point. I made mine. Now what's the problem?


    if my question doesn't dignify a response then don't bother responding to any of my postings. you are far to volatile for your own good. as for my ability to read, i'll put up my educational credentials up against yours any day of the week but in the final analysis what does that prove? i assure you, this blackman can read.

    you may or may not have noticed but while you have chastised my posting for 'stereotyping' black americans you yourself have in turn ˜stereotyped' me. don't you think that is a contradiction? i've posted here roughly 25+ times and this is the first critique i've made concerning black people. if you can't tell by now that i'm not a conservative ideologue, then i don't know what to tell you. therefore, if i choose to spend 4% or 5% of my time here criticizing the negative behaviors or aspects i perceive of my community then i will do that. if this offends your sensibilities, i'm sorry for that but i will not suppress my opinions.

    i'm not here to engage in fruitless verbal sparring, i'm here to exchange ideas with my people. if you disagree with something i say, that's cool, no one here is infallible nor has a monopoly on ideas.

    from this point forward, if/when you disagree with a specific point i make, ask a simple question for clarification. going on the offensive or jumping to conclusions wastes a lot of time and gets us nowhere.
    quote:
    Originally posted by Isome:
    Do you think that will work? Holding us to strict standards is one thing, but a higher standard is something altogether different.

    Also, and again, there are an abundance of Black organizations out there attempting to help those who seek it. As a result, any anecdotal evidence any of us can come up with is not, as Nmaginate said, a representative sampling of our collective.

    The best we can do for those we see not doing anything is to keep it moving -- keep striving to do what we do as individuals and as part of a group effort. They will either get with the program, or be swept aside by the momentum.


    sorry for the delayed response...i wasn't ignoring you.

    i understand your position. we are all shaped by our personal experiences and my experiences leads me to take a harder approach on matters like this. i am of the opinion, that black people should strive for excellence and that means being better than the rest. many of us are already at a socio-economic disadvantage therefore imo, we have little choice but to hold ourselves to a higher standard. being a father, i hold my daughters to a higher standard than everyone else. being black, i hold black people to a higher standard. but as i've said before i do see your position.
    quote:
    Originally posted by Negrological:
    sorry for the delayed response...i wasn't ignoring you.


    That's okay, you don't seem like the type to do that.

    quote:
    i understand your position. we are all shaped by our personal experiences and my experiences leads me to take a harder approach on matters like this. i am of the opinion, that black people should strive for excellence and that means being better than the rest. many of us are already at a socio-economic disadvantage therefore imo, we have little choice but to hold ourselves to a higher standard. being a father, i hold my daughters to a higher standard than everyone else. being black, i hold black people to a higher standard. but as i've said before i do see your position.


    That's really all we can hope for is to be understood. Smile

    ::On Edit::

    When I can think of a way to be more concise, we will have to revisit this, but rest assured I understand you, too.
    quote:
    as for my ability to read, i'll put up my educational credentials up against yours any day of the week but in the final analysis what does that prove? i assure you, this blackman can read.
    Well, if you can read (and comprehend)... your question was posed for what purpose?

    quote:
    you may or may not have noticed but while you have chastised my posting for 'stereotyping' black americans you yourself have in turn ˜stereotyped' me. don't you think that is a contradiction?
    I've "stereotyped" you how??

    quote:
    if you can't tell by now that i'm not a conservative ideologue, then i don't know what to tell you.
    Since that's your suggestion? Upon what do you base this idea that I have "stereotyped" you as a "conservative ideologue."

    quote:
    if/when you disagree with a specific point i make, ask a simple question for clarification. going on the offensive or jumping to conclusions wastes a lot of time and gets us nowhere.
    WHAT conclusions did I "jump" to? That you're a "conservative ideologue"??

    It's pretty hard to sustain your view here. Your assumption here when I've more than recognized things you've said before.

    So, go ahead... Hold up your educational credentials, this, that and the other... But when you get done, please let me know what the purpose of your question was.

    As I have said, you don't need me to validate you or your question/idea. In the meantime, please also follow your own advice, as it were:
    quote:
    if i choose to spend 4% or 5% of my time here criticizing the negative behaviors or aspects i perceive of my community then i will do that. if this offends your sensibilities, i'm sorry for that but i will not suppress my opinions.
    But, please, go ahead and tell me how I've stereotyped you. Or is it just that you can't find another excuse...?

    You say you're not here "to engage in fruitless verbal sparring..." But it is my perogative not to engage in little validation games played with questions like yours. It is also my perogative, as is yours, to respond to what you post as I see fit. Like you said:
    if this offends your sensibilities, i'm sorry for that but i will not suppress my opinions.

    Don't trip because that's the way I am. Also, tell me what I'm "offended" by or what you perceive as me "going on the offensive?"

    I disagreed with what you said. Stated my disagreement on the very points I disagreed... but, curiously, you ask a question that was unrelated to any of my points. Now, how exactly should I treat that?

    Now, as for this....
    quote:
    as for my indian friend, he grew up in queens, father died and mother had to rent out a bedroom in her apartment to make ends meet. so needless to say his family wasn't from a higher socio-economic class. when i tell you, you're missing the point, you're really missing the point.
    Hmmm... Now, I'm sure there is a Black person with a similar story of relative poverty, loss of a parent and academic accomplishment in spite of... So what was the point that I missed?

    Surely in all your academic training you have had the opportunity to learn that anecdotal evidence is the less reliable especially when trying to extrapolate on something larger from a limited sample. You cited one individual as he, your friend, seemed to validate a stereotype you want to on one hand use to criticize Blacks with but on the other totally contradict the esteem you give Indians/Asians by asking: if asians are so intelligent, disciplined and organized why is the continent of asia so screwed up.

    That's stuff for you to reconcile. Needless to say, I will not ignore those inconvenient statements (for you) for you to feel "validated."

    With nothing said to contend with what I have said, my points stand. (Again, there's, no doubt, some Black person who had a parent die while they were young, etc., etc. who went on to excell academically or however.)
    quote:
    Originally posted by Nmaginate:
    Well, if you can read (and comprehend)... your question was posed for what purpose?


    i stopped reading right here.

    what is the purpose of a question, you ask? people ask questions because they are trying to obtain information to achieve personal clarification or understanding. typically questions are personal in nature hense my confusion why a personal question needs justification of purpose to you. is questioning the questions of others your modus operandi? my original question may have been a bit to cryptic for your liking but nevertheless it wasn't posed to suit your needs but mine.
    quote:
    LEGACIES were explicitly mentioned in this INTERVIEW right along with Athletics, etc. as factors that accounted for the different admit rate between Whites and Asian-Americans.



    A point that is IRRELEVANT TO THE SITUATION TO-DAMNED-DAY.

    Asians DID NOT advance the use of Affirmative Action to a point ANYWHERE NEAR the level that was advocated by Blacks and to some extent Hispanics.


    Let us ARGUE FOR A MINUTE that they DID MAKE USE OF AFFIRMATIVE ACTION though........
    NMAGINATE - Please tell me why ASIANS are now 50% of the population of the freshman class at Berkeley and Blacks numbers have decreased BEING THAT BOTH GROUPS DEPENDENT ON AFFIRMATIVE ACTION?

    It comes right back at'cha to figure out the problem.

    I know the discrimination that they faced while building the railroads (ie: A Chinaman's Chance - the likelihood that they would get out of the way of the explosives that were set off to blast rocks on the side of a mountain as they were dangled in baskets to do work) and the explicit ban on their immigration into the states DOES NOT COMPARE WITH BLACK SLAVERY.

    What IS IT THEN NMAGINATE?

    Please tell me what is it that has a Black baby born today in America and an Asian kid born to day to have so divergent an outcome after 18 years (on average)?

    Maybe you can put your balls back into your pants and COME UP WITH SOME TRUTH AND SOME SOLUTIONS.
    quote:
    Wait a minute!

    Someone ask if there would have been a civil rights movement if we had the 'asian model' for community ... Our history, as a people, would still be the same. Our population impact in society would still be the same. Our impact on voting would still be the same.

    And...our color would still be the same.


    Without a doubt, there would have been a need for the CRM if we had the 'asian model' for community.

    Besides the Virginia Colony, our whole communal history between emancipation until the CRM, i.e., Integration, our model for existence was the "asian model."
    Besides the Virginia Colony, our whole communal history between emancipation until the CRM, i.e., Integration, our model for existence was the "asian model."---K4R

    We have tried every imaginable way to fit the European model for us to be a 'parity participant' in our society.

    All have failed. Every effort has lack something.

    Leverage.

    The 'leverage' is to be able to function outside of the 'color construction' of our society.

    It is color that enables us to be constrained.

    The leveraging parameter for parity is identity ootside of that 'color construction'.

    That leveraging parameter is ancestral nationality.

    But that parameter requires that we as individuals exercise personal authority over ourselves.

    And...few of us are self-aware enough, not only to do that, but to believe we, as individuals, CAN, are empowered, to do that.


    PEACE

    Jim Chester
    quote:
    We have tried every imaginable way to fit the European model for us to be a 'parity participant' in our society.

    All have failed. Every effort has lack something.

    Leverage.

    The 'leverage' is to be able to function outside of the 'color construction' of our society ...


    I don't know that I agree with that in regards to this current discussion. I don't see our failure to become 'parity participant[s]' in this society as based in something we lack; but rather, it is based in things withheld.

    But that said [and if I understand what you were saying], attaining the leverage of a ancestral nationality would seem to obviate against any need to fit into any european model.

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