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Garry Cobb, former NFL Linebacker, and current sports and political commentator is the editor of a new political website called A Black Conservative.com

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"Most economic fallacies derive ... from the tendency to assume that there is a fixed pie, that one party can gain only at the expense of another" - Milton Friedman "The worst crime against working people is a company which fails to operate at a profit." –- Samuel Gompers Ron Paul for President
Original Post
I wonder how many of those men and women chose black spouses? I bet that group has a much higher rate of inter-racial marriage than does the general black population.

Toussaint- could you explain to me how and why Chinas gain of manufacturing jobs is affecting US manufacturing, assuming there is not fixed pie? I mean, why can't their manufacturing sector grow rapidly and ours grow rapidly at the same time? When a US manufacturer closes plants in America and open plants in Asia, where is the Win-Win of an infinite pie?
quote:
Originally posted by Noah The African:
I wonder how many of those men and women chose black spouses? I bet that group has a much higher rate of inter-racial marriage than does the general black population.


OOh. Why don't you do a study so we can find out who the evil race-mixers are?

quote:
Toussaint- could you explain to me how and why Chinas gain of manufacturing jobs is affecting US manufacturing, assuming there is not fixed pie? I mean, why can't their manufacturing sector grow rapidly and ours grow rapidly at the same time? When a US manufacturer closes plants in America and open plants in Asia, where is the Win-Win of an infinite pie?


China lost manufacturing jobs as the US was losing them ... and many more at that.

So, what were you saying?
quote:
Originally posted by toussaint:
quote:
Originally posted by Noah The African:
I wonder how many of those men and women chose black spouses? I bet that group has a much higher rate of inter-racial marriage than does the general black population.


OOh. Why don't you do a study so we can find out who the evil race-mixers are?

quote:
Toussaint- could you explain to me how and why Chinas gain of manufacturing jobs is affecting US manufacturing, assuming there is not fixed pie? I mean, why can't their manufacturing sector grow rapidly and ours grow rapidly at the same time? When a US manufacturer closes plants in America and open plants in Asia, where is the Win-Win of an infinite pie?


China lost manufacturing jobs as the US was losing them ... and many more at that.

So, what were you saying?



I never said that race mixing is evil....just noting some people cannot seem to find worthy black folks to marry and most often these folks are conservatives. Hmmmmmm

Oh look at you do the jig around China. The fact is that Much of Chinas growth is related to US direct foreign investment. My question is why not China could grow from its own capital investment at the same rate and does not the direct foreign investment coming from the US mean that the US has LOST those investment dollars? If I am a company in the USA and I got a billion dollars to invest, a billion dollars that when spent will create jobs and income, and I invest that money in China....where is the NET GAIN of an infinite pie? The fact they China gets the investment and jobs means that we don't get the investment and jobs. Somebody wins and somebody loses....ZERO SUM.
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quote:
Originally posted by Noah The African:
If I am a company in the USA and I got a billion dollars to invest, a billion dollars that when spent will create jobs and income, and I invest that money in China....where is the NET GAIN of an infinite pie? The fact they China gets the investment and jobs means that we don't get the investment and jobs. Somebody wins and somebody loses....ZERO SUM.


That's like saying when I buy something from someone, every person other than that someone loses. Ridiculous.

No one in either side is made worse off in your hypothetical. A company is taking its own money and investing it. It's not taking someone else's money. There's no zero-sum here.
what these so called conservatives fail to mention as the world becomes more and more global, the margins between the rich and poor widens. The same racist companies that were national are no international, forcing the down the cost of labor because they can simply go to countries that favor business and stiffle human rights.how does this benifit black people,
quote:
Originally posted by Noah The African:
I wonder how many of those men and women chose black spouses? I bet that group has a much higher rate of inter-racial marriage than does the general black population.


I wonder how many of those men and women are millionairs. I bet that group has alot more money than the general Black population.

Interesting that conservatism only benefits the wealthy, and as soon as they make it they forget where they came from.

Damn shame... bang
quote:
Originally posted by toussaint:
quote:
Originally posted by Noah The African:
If I am a company in the USA and I got a billion dollars to invest, a billion dollars that when spent will create jobs and income, and I invest that money in China....where is the NET GAIN of an infinite pie? The fact they China gets the investment and jobs means that we don't get the investment and jobs. Somebody wins and somebody loses....ZERO SUM.


That's like saying when I buy something from someone, every person other than that someone loses. Ridiculous.

No one in either side is made worse off in your hypothetical. A company is taking its own money and investing it. It's not taking someone else's money. There's no zero-sum here.


Well...you seem to not understand that competition produces winners and losers and hence by its nature represents a zero sum. Given population growth, there need to be economic growth and job growth just to keep up with providing opportunity for an expanding population. Thus, when there is capital to be invested which creates jobs and income for peoples. Geographic locations compete for the investment dollars. Some win and some lose. Even within the United States, there has been a migration of investment dollars to the Southern Region and away from the Northern Region. Thus, opportunity has thus shifted from the North to the South and that is why jobs and people are flocking south. Obviously the South gain is to the North's loss. Obviously Asia's gains are the US loss.
quote:
Originally posted by Noah The African:
quote:
Originally posted by toussaint:
quote:
Originally posted by Noah The African:
If I am a company in the USA and I got a billion dollars to invest, a billion dollars that when spent will create jobs and income, and I invest that money in China....where is the NET GAIN of an infinite pie? The fact they China gets the investment and jobs means that we don't get the investment and jobs. Somebody wins and somebody loses....ZERO SUM.


That's like saying when I buy something from someone, every person other than that someone loses. Ridiculous.

No one in either side is made worse off in your hypothetical. A company is taking its own money and investing it. It's not taking someone else's money. There's no zero-sum here.


Well...you seem to not understand that competition produces winners and losers and hence by its nature represents a zero sum. Given population growth, there need to be economic growth and job growth just to keep up with providing opportunity for an expanding population. Thus, when there is capital to be invested which creates jobs and income for peoples. Geographic locations compete for the investment dollars. Some win and some lose. Even within the United States, there has been a migration of investment dollars to the Southern Region and away from the Northern Region. Thus, opportunity has thus shifted from the North to the South and that is why jobs and people are flocking south. Obviously the South gain is to the North's loss. Obviously Asia's gains are the US loss.


It is not at all obvious that A's gain is B's loss. That's why your argument about manufacturing jobs fell flat.

If a US company takes its profits and invests them in China, tell me, who has "lost" something? Investment seekers in the US may have "lost" competition for investment dollars, but they have not lost anything tangible. They are just as well off as they were before the US company decided to invest its profits.

Some specific group may not be as well off as they could have been, but that does not mean "worse off" for zero-sum purposes.
quote:
Some specific group may not be as well off as they could have been, but that does not mean "worse off" for zero-sum purposes.
"MAY" your aztecz!!!

Even within the United States, there has been a migration of investment dollars to the Southern Region and away from the Northern Region.

Could've, Would've, Should've that.
Show how there is absolutely no relation or correlation - clear, direct, complete or particle - instead of puking out the Mealy Mouth. You got a pretty straightforward example right there. Show the lack of a relationship and how "nothing tangible" was "lost" in the switch.
Welcome back Toussaint.

I see that you remain firm in your "free market globalism."

quote:
It is not at all obvious that A's gain is B's loss. That's why your argument about manufacturing jobs fell flat.

If a US company takes its profits and invests them in China, tell me, who has "lost" something? Investment seekers in the US may have "lost" competition for investment dollars, but they have not lost anything tangible. They are just as well off as they were before the US company decided to invest its profits.

Some specific group may not be as well off as they could have been, but that does not mean "worse off" for zero-sum purposes.


Yet, you refuse to recognize that with globalism there are in fact losers that really weren't even in the game.

You ask:
quote:
If a US company takes its profits and invests them in China, tell me, who has "lost" something?


I say ask any of the 100's of thousands of US employees that lost their sources of livelihood.

quote:
Some specific group may not be as well off as they could have been, but that does not mean "worse off" for zero-sum purposes


For those above, globalism is in fact a zero-sum game.

The globalism that you promote is exploitively as well as myopic. But for a Black person to support, let alone, promote a system that has systemically shut out Black folk here, and exploited Black folk abroad is ... Confused

But then again, we've done this dance before. Again, welcome back.
quote:
Originally posted by Nmaginate:
quote:
Some specific group may not be as well off as they could have been, but that does not mean "worse off" for zero-sum purposes.
"MAY" your aztecz!!!

Even within the United States, there has been a migration of investment dollars to the Southern Region and away from the Northern Region.

Could've, Would've, Should've that.
Show how there is absolutely no relation or correlation - clear, direct, complete or particle - instead of puking out the Mealy Mouth. You got a pretty straightforward example right there. Show the lack of a relationship and how "nothing tangible" was "lost" in the switch.


So, the South is growing faster economically. Does that necessarily mean the North is getting poorer? No, because there's not a fixed pie. Both regions can grow at the same time. In order for it to be zero sum, you'd have to prove that they cannot both grow at the same time. Good luck with that.

quote:
Originally posted by Kweli4Real:
Yet, you refuse to recognize that with globalism there are in fact losers that really weren't even in the game.


First, who "isn't in the game"? Second, what losers are you talking about? People who lose their jobs?

Resources shift and people gain and lose jobs. That alone does not make it a zero-sum game. In a healthy (free) economy job turnover is vigorous and leads to better jobs, such as lower paying manufacturing jobs being replaced by higher paying service jobs. That is how an economy develops.

quote:
I say ask any of the 100's of thousands of US employees that lost their sources of livelihood.


Are you talking about outsourcing? That is just a part of job turnover (and a very small part of it at that). Also, it's not even part of the hypothetical I posed. I didn't say the company closed down operations in the US, because that is not a necessary component of overseas investment. So, your 100s of thousands with no livelihoods was an assumption, and a weak one at that. Most overseas investment is not closing down plants and moving them.

quote:
But for a Black person to support, let alone, promote a system that has systemically shut out Black folk here, and exploited Black folk abroad is ...


Good luck showing how freedom of exchange "shuts black folk out." Sure, slavery and Jim Crow shut black folks out. But that's not freedom of exchange- that's the exact opposite. Freedom of exchange is how the Black Wall Street was created, and how thriving black towns sprung out of nowhere in the late 1900s. It is how this nation became rich, and how every other rich nation became rich. It's how the rich black people in this country became rich. You're attacking the wrong culprit, Kweli.
quote:
So, the South is growing faster economically. Does that necessarily mean the North is getting poorer? No, because there's not a fixed pie. Both regions can grow at the same time.
CAN your aztecs, too!! What's up with the MEALY MOUTH!!

I didn't stutter:
Show the lack of a relationship and how "nothing tangible" was "lost" in the switch.

Oh, you've had NO LUCK with that. Figures... sck

quote:
Does that necessarily mean the North is getting poorer?
Does it mean the North isn't?? IN REALITY!! Demonstrate that or take the MEALY MOUTH to Disney where all your Mickey Mouse, Make-Believe logic resides.

It's not that hard. You claim "there's not a fixed pie"... Show us how, tell us why. Again, you had a clear, straightforward example. "FIXED" or not, you have to demonstrate how there is no NET LOSS, whether there's a 1-to-1 ratio or not.

Note: YOU CANNOT Hide Behind "MAY" and "CAN"... You're talking about what's "possible". Some hypothetical type of BS. Talk about REALITY. What is actually happening. The Realm Of Possibility says you might have a clue. But every time you open your mouth you convince us that you don't. Now that's real and not some fantasized "Free Market" SHOULD, WOULD and COULD BS!!!
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Ummm, both the North and the South are growing economically, meaning no net loss on either side.
Ummm... GROWTH FIGURES in the same sectors. Manufacturing, etc. The thing here is the impact on workers; aka "the people."

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The decline in manufacturing jobs has swiftly accelerated since the beginning of 2000. Since then, more than 1.9 million factory jobs have been cut "” about 10% of the sector's workforce. During the same period, the number of jobs outside manufacturing has risen close to 2%

http://www.usatoday.com/money/economy/2002-12-12-manufacture_x.htm


Understand, now??


quote:
Many of the factory jobs are being cut as companies respond to a sharp rise in global competition. Unable to raise prices "” and often forced to cut them "” companies must find any way they can to reduce costs and hang onto profits.

Jobs are increasingly being moved abroad as companies take advantage of lower labor costs and position themselves to sell products to a growing "” and promising "” market abroad. Economy.com, an economic consulting firm in West Chester, Pa., estimates 1.3 million manufacturing jobs have been moved abroad since the beginning of 1992 "” the bulk coming in the last three years. Most of those jobs have gone to Mexico and East Asia.


How about now?

quote:
Many in manufacturing disagree that the sector is dying. They say it's just changing. The sector's output grew for a decade through 2000 before weakening during the economic downturn in 2001 that swept across the economy but hit the manufacturing sector hardest.

...economists say the change in manufacturing, albeit painful, is healthy for the sector and for the overall economy in the long run.
QUESTION: How is there "pain" when there is no Net TANGIBLE Loss (i.e. something that can be felt or touched)?

quote:
"It's an ongoing process, but it obviously means that people who fall behind in the accumulation of skills find their incomes advance more slowly, and they suffer a greater risk of unemployment..."
How can someone run the risk of being unemployed when NOTHING IS LOST?? Hmmm....

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