NEGROID- A Question of phenotype?

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Originally posted by Afroman:

I've been having these continual and hurtful attacks by members of another forum offended by my use of the term 'Negroid', I use to refer to the pure Africans, the very dark skinned people with broad features and kinky hair.

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What is your intent in using the word in the first place? In what context do you find yourself needing to describe/define people in this way? Why do you need to use a word that is potentially offensive?

Second, there are many types of "pure Africans" that do not fit your description. Why do you make this presumption about them and their appearance?


There is no passion to be found playing small, in settling for a life
that is less than the one you are capable of living. - Mandela

MBM,

I use this term to create a particular image of the dark-skinned-broad-nose-kinky-hair-Black-African" who get discriminated against the most based on color from those outside and inside the Black/African race and are most affected by institutionalized racism that plays favoritism based on skin shades.

Tell me, HOW am I being unreasonable and offesive by using anthropological term 'Negroid' in a general sense to refer to the non-multiracial dark skinned africans, with broad nose and woolly hair?

AfroMan.

Most people who know you or read your posts would know you don't mean any offence. I remember I had this experience many years ago when I was talking to some friends of mine in London whose parents originated from the Caribbean. During the conversation I referred to myself as a Negro and they were highly offended and angry at me. Coming origally from Ghana I could not understand why they were offended by a statement I have made to describe myself. I think people are offended because white people put those labels on us to start with and to expand on it into Negroid and so on makes it sound even worse. Now I use the term black people and I differentiate between black people as Africans and black people across the Atlantic as western blacks. It works well because everyone seems to understand me well and it causes no offence

_____________________________
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quote:

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"I use this term to create a particular image of the dark-skinned-broad-nose-kinky-hair-Black-African" who get discriminated against the most based on color from those outside and inside the Black/African race and are most affected by institutionalized racism that plays favoritism based on skin shades." -Afroman

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The problem I have with using the term ˜Negroid' is using it to divide blacks and our suffering. Implying that dark skin blacks without broad features do not suffer discrimination like those with broad features. Therefore, their suffering is insignificant.

I have been outside the states and seen some dark skin African's with curly hair and keen features living in dire poverty, which was the result of racism. Dark skin blacks who do not fit your description here in the US are ostracized, ridiculed, and discriminated against. My maternal cousins called me ˜blackie' and wouldn't associate with me. But what they didn't know was being call black was not offensive because my father had always used the word as a term of endearment toward me. My feelings were hurt from their disassociation.

There are a lot of dark skin as well as light skin blacks with various features who generally face racism. My elder sister is fair skin with broad features who has faced racism. So, I don't like making distinctions we have all suffered racism. Anyway, to use the term in that way, is not that a form of discrimination among us?

Unfortunately, not everyone knows Afroman. Therefore, his words could be misunderstood.

[This message was edited by Len on September 25, 2003 at 11:40 AM.]

I recently began a thread entitled "Language of Identity." The concept applies equally well to the language we use to describe WHAT people are, as well as WHO they are. henry39's example is classic.

My understanding is that "Negro" is the basic anthropological term, and "Negroid" is the derivative form for "Negro-like." The reverse could be equally true. I didn't look. "Negro" was/is the name for the three major races of humankind, namely Negroid, Mongoloid, Caucasoid, to use your choice.

It is also interesting that "Negro" is considered "derogatory." So, now there are indeed two n-words.

Also, what is your intent with the use of phenotype? The distintiveness of all three races is essentially the result of environment on physicality.

PEACE

Jim Chester

You are who you say you are. Your children are who you say you are.

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Originally posted by James Wesley Chester:

The distintiveness of all three races is essentially the result of environment on physicality.

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Is race, then, just a cosmetic factor or attribute in your opinion?


There is no passion to be found playing small, in settling for a life
that is less than the one you are capable of living. - Mandela

[This message was edited by MBM on September 25, 2003 at 01:28 PM.]

Thank you all for your responses. Thinking about the topic, I came up with these thoughts.

I could UNDERSTAND why black people as Africans and black people in general could be offended by my use of the anthropological term "Negroid" as it is linked (but NOT!) to the cruel and callous word "Nigger" that has been use to vilify us the world over. However, I still think this offence is ILLOGICAL and futile as no matter the term we use Black, Negro, Negroid, African, Afro, Dalits, Untouchables, Aboriginal, Ethiopoid or Congoid we will still face the reality of race/color exploitation and oppression that does 'Justice' to the politics of white men or white women in this world. The truth of the matter is we are just a bunch of "Niggers" in their eyes anyway! I think it's more important we find out about who we really are regardless of any race or ethnic terminology they/we use to describe us.

Our Independence and true sense of IDENTITY don't even depend on whichever ethnic nametag we choose for ourselves! Our PRIDE and AUTONOMY is knowing who we are and being PROUD of it that guide us to Truth, forces us to Convictions and inspire us to ACTION!! I know I am proud of my Indigenous African culture. I know I am proud of my kinky hair, dark-skinned and broad features when society is influencing me to be dissatisfied with them...

It's logical to refer ourselves with any term of our choosing as long as we think, speak, write and act with pride, know and respect our native traditions if we can! If we are proud of our black race we always beautifully! We are more than Blacks, Native Africans, African-Americans, Afro-Latinos, Aboriginals, Black British, Black Middle Eastern, Congoid or Ethiopoid or whatever we want to categorize ourselves. We are more than terminology, which is what I've been trying to make these people understand. Being proud of our African ROOTS is the NOLEST conduct. Our Pride/Culture lies BEYOND terminologies.


AfroMan.

[This message was edited by Afroman on September 25, 2003 at 07:04 PM.]

Afro;

if you are referencing only a slice of black/african people with the use of negroid, then you are not using it in the anthropological sense.

NEGROID does not only refer to black skinned, broad featured african people...

it also refers to ALL those who may have ANY combination of African features...

just like caucasoid refers to "white looking/euro type" people

and

mongoloid refers to "asian looking/asian type" people

so both Vanessa Williams and Alek Wek are said to be "of negroid stock"

I respectfully disagree sister. The term Negroid refers more to the non-multiracial-kinky-hair-dark-skinned-broad features-black-Africans. No doubt, they are black Africans with yellow-brown complexion like Ms. William, but usually the term Negroid has an original black/dark with kinky hair Africans connation. Now I could be wrong, can you suggest me any reading or guide me to a link to enlighten me?

AfroMan.

ok Afro, i will find you some references

but you are wrongly using the term...

"negroid", refers to a racial type/stock just as "mongoloid", and "caucasoid" do.

the dahlits, the dark skinned people in china, and the aborigines are all of "negroid stock" as well as african americans, so called "west indians", and continental africans....

both you and MBM, both gina and pam on TV's MARTIN, both Beyonce and Kelly of destiny's child, both Alicia Keys and India.Arie are of "negroid" stock

Thanks Sister I appreciate your help on this one!

But tell me, if as James said the word "Negroid" is the derivative form for "Negro-like" how does it make all the light skinned folks, most a result of Arab and other white mixing, "Negro-like"?

That is why I use the word "Negroid" referring to the Kinky-hair-dark-skinned-broad-features-black-Africans. Multiracial people are black by genetic background, tradition and history but MOST certaintly do not LOOK Negro-like. What do you think?

ONE BLACK LOVE!


AfroMan.

[This message was edited by Afroman on September 25, 2003 at 07:57 PM.]

Afroman I will respectfully beg you to leave this alone. If the word causes offence, use something else. You may not realise it but your actions would lead to causing MORE divisions among us black people. We already have blacks denying any link to Africa, you have light coloured blacks denying their black line, you have Sudanese and Ethiopians who are dark as night referring to themselves as Arabs and are offended if you call them black or Negro. Now you wish to introduce new issues to muddy up the water even more. I always lke to draw our people's attention to white people, Chinese or East Indians who are happy with their identity and do not struggle with it like blacks do.

If black people don't like like the term, please don't use it. I have not thought about the terms you are coming up with until now. I must admit, as I listen to it I begin to feel a feeling of uneasiness because it does not reflect how all black people from Afrca look. To give you an example many African migrated to West and Central Africa from the East of the continent so their features come with thin noses and lips, they do not fit into your description at all. I have a thin nose and I am from West Africa. Many of the Tutis I see on TV seem to have thin features as well so where do we fit in this negroid description. We are all black people first and foremost that is who we are. To show our different backrounds it is easy to see ourselves as Black Africans for those born and raised in Africa and for our brothers across the Atlantic we know them as Western Blacks.

_____________________________
Is it just talk or are you for solutions? If you are GENUINELY interested in solving black problems? Then join us at http://www.theguidedog.com/index_nation.html

PHENOTYPE

Afroman:

I don't know what your intent is on the other site. It sounds like you are playing the role of "invader" such as happens on this site with those who post only to disrupt. That's your business. Pursuing this terminology under the guise of "scientific reference" is only demaning us. The responses you evoking here is evidence of that.

henry39 is offering good advise. You are doing you own people a disservice.

This is the "funk" we ALLOW ourselves to get forced into over, and over. This self-analysis, anthropological dissection, societal mind-squeeze that means nothing to WHO you are, has bound us for generations. This mental constriction is the last bondage of chattel slavery. Every people in the world can go through the exact same recitation-of-self. BUT THEY DON'T!!

Are the Caucasians the original people of Caucus Mountains, or is it simply a coincidence of naming. Does Europe really end at the Ural Mountains, or are those people just over the ridge also European? Are the Davidians of Eastern Africa really African, or are they some transplanted people from the other side of the Mediterranean Sea, or perhaps over the Indian Ocean? Could these people be Europeans simply stayed in the sun too long? Preposterous? Not so much, There once was a prevailing school of thought that pushed the idea. Surely, such civilizations could not have been created by "black" people. It can go on forever for any people. But it doesn't. Why is that? No one else talks about WHAT they are. They talk about WHO they are.

I know I sound like a broken record, but it really is just that simple. We listen to everyone else who tells us WHAT we are. WE are the only ones who can tell us WHO we are. No one else tells us, because they can't. We are the only ones who can. That's why we are constantly "in a funk" about our identity.

An anthropologist comes along and tells us that the square of the fracus divided by the cube root of the incitus will show without a doubt that the dibulus, when combined with the square root of the fracus produces YOU. We go crazy. Society says, "SEE! I told you it was simply a matter of anthropology!!" We go crazier. We look to anthropology, and we're off to another generation of self-diagnosis. Denial. And redefinition.

All this, because we will not determine and declare WHO we are. It's almost as though we are afraid. Can we really do this? We need permission. Suppose someone doesn't like it? What will they do? What will they say? The answers are: Yes we can do it. No, we don't need the permission of anyone. Who cares whether "they" like it. They will do nothing, but fall in line. They can say anything they want.

Society like nature abhors a vacuum. Someone will try to fill it. AND ALWAYS TO THEIR ADVANTAGE. NOT YOURS.

This is a task that will always be before until we come to grips with it. And it MUST be done on an individual basis. Person-by-person, Family-by-family. Until a "critical mass" is reached that will result is identity by acclamation. That's what happened with "black." Those who disagreed, or were hesitant got drowned out in the roar!! They became "black" like everyone else. They were protected by the very masses they didn't want to be identified with.

It's a hard resolution to achieve. I took the best course I could that had documentation, was provable, respected and honored my family, and was consistent with the history of my family as I knew it to be true.

I am not African. African is my ancestry.

African America is that place developed for the safe haven of people like me, people of black ancestry, in the hostile land of our birth, descendants of native-born people for generations, Americans.

That place is African America.

African America is my heritage.

I am an American, who is African American. I am not an American who is African.

I am an African American-American.


PEACE

Jim Chester

You are who you say you are. Your children are who you say you are.

James,

You it got all wrong I LOVE Africa and all her potential. I don't post to insult my people or my ancestors! You already explained how you define yourself, it's your absolute right to associate or NOT with the Motherland and/or with black Africans on the continent. But as far as I am concerned as a black African I cannot look to another place or culture for my spiritual growth. I can only look to AFRICA, which is MY ROOT! While I can understand your idea that we must be rooted in the physical (western) countries we were born and/or reside, I personally still cannot separate myself from my ancestry. My responsibility is the development of my people and brings about TOTAL freedom for blacks, which will NEVER exist in western countries.

James, Henry, everybody..

Again, I got into this debate not to offense. Now, I realize the term "Negroid" can be/is pejorative, so I will cease to use it to not upset considerate and intelligent brothers and sisters. However, the greater issue of COLORISM is still abounding. What about those light skinned Sudanese and others in Mauritania, Somalia, Niger, all over Latin America etc... using VERY RACIST official national ethos through the schooling system, religious based indoctrination and via numerous other methods to enforce COLOR boundaries to a large extent? The use of the "Negroid" word is not as offensive and damaging as the traditional WHITE/light skin vilifying and discrimination of the kinky-hair-dark-skinned-black-Africans, we can't forget that. My intent is not to offense but to draw awareness of very poignant and callous realities. I believe Information shapes conviction and conviction promotes Compassion and Action!

AfroMan.

[This message was edited by Afroman on September 27, 2003 at 01:15 AM.]

Hi Afro
I am not offended by the anthropological term "negroid". Until I read this thread, I did not know that other people were. However, I have always been taught that "negroid" refers to all people of black ancestry - like caucasoid now also refers to Italians, Irish, Welsh, Romanians, and Scandinavians- there are phenotypical differences between them yet their stock is considered to be the same, caucasoid, no?


The use of the broad term "negroid" to describe a slice of the diaspora does seem divisive, IMHO,

but I clearly understand what u mean when you refer to

"kinky-hair-dark-skinned-black-Africans"

why not just use this phrase?

"I use this term to create a particular image of the dark-skinned-broad-nose-kinky-hair-Black-African" who get discriminated against the most based on color from those outside and inside the Black/African race and are most affected by institutionalized racism that plays favoritism based on skin shades."

Let me make one thing clear, I am not offended by the use of the term Negroid in an anthropological sense. What is divisive in my opinion is your use of it Afroman per the above statement.


"The truth of the matter is we are just a bunch of "Niggers" in their eyes anyway!"

Unlike some people, I am not in search of my identity nor do I care about what white people think about my identity. What is important, is that "I" know who I am and what group "I" identify with both genetically and socially. Therefore, terms are none issue with me. I just hate to see us divide our discriminatory hardships by color, facial features, and hair texture. We all experience racism from the lightest to the very dark, from straight hair to kinky hair. So, why use the term in a way to divide us further? That's all I'm saying.

No offense taken.

Ivan Van Sertima, of "They Came Before Columbus" fame, uses the term Africoid. I liked that term, so I use it. "Negroid," to me, isn't intended to be offensive, but because it derives from "Negro," I don't like it.

Negro is the latin word for "black", no? Also there is both a country and a River named Niger (Nye-jer). The most populous country in Africa is "Nigeria"

Why not embrace "Negro"?

just askin'

Because, they don't call whites "Alboes." The word had a connotation of us as a "breed." It defines black people from the perspective of white colonizers and slavers. To me, personally, there is an inherent level of dehumanization present in the term, which, since it was used originally by people whose financial interests required our dehumanization, makes the word generally a no-no. For me, at least.

Oh, and those names, Nigeria and Niger, suck for the same reasons. Nigeria we're stuck with, because the name applies to an artificially carved "republic" anyway. But there are indigenous names for the river the Europeans dubbed the "Niger." The two I know of are the Orinmili and the Ohinmwin. I'm not the most Afrocentric guy in the world, but I would prefer it if one of these names became more prominent.

Compiled by 'Ayinde' a good friend of mine!

Creation Of The Negro
Extracts from: The name "negro" its origin and evil use: Richard B. Moore

The name that you respond to determines the amount of your self worth. Similarly, the way a group of people collectively respond to a name can have devastating effects on their lives, particularly if they did not choose the name.
Asians come from Asia and have pride in the Asian race' Europeans come from Europe and have pride in Europe accomplishments. Negroes, I am to assume, come from negroland-a mythical country with an uncertain past and an even more uncertain future. Since negroland is a myth, where did the myth of the negro originate? The key to understanding what a negro is, is to understand the definition of that word and its origin.

The word negro is Spanish for black. The Spanish language comes from Latin, which has its origins in Classical Greek. The word negro, in Greek, is derived from the root word necro, meaning dead. What was once referred to as a physical condition is now regarded as an appropriate state of mind for millions of Africans.

Historically when the Greeks first traveled to Africa 2,500 years ago, the Egyptian civilization was already ancient. The Great Pyramid was over 3,000 years old and the sphinx was even older. Writing, science, medicine and religion were already a part of the civilization and had reached their zenith. The Greeks came to Africa as students to sit at the feet of the masters, and to discover what Africans already knew. In any student / teacher relationship the teacher can only teach as much as the student is capable of understanding.

Egyptians, like other Africans, understood that life existed beyond the grave. Ancestral worship is a way of acknowledging the lives of the people who have come before you, and their ability to offer guidance and direction to the living. Temples were designed as places where the ancestors could be honored and holidays (Holy Days) where the ancestors could be honored, and holidays (Holy Days) were the days designated to do so.

The Egyptians had hundreds of temples and hundreds of Holy Days to worship their ancestors. The Greeks thought the Africans had a preoccupation with death. The act of ancestral worship became known as necromancy or communication with the dead. The root word necro means dead. Another word for necromancy is magic - that Old Black Magic which was practiced in Ancient Africa. When the Greeks returned to Europe, they took their distorted beliefs with them and the word negro evolved out of this great misunderstanding.

Less than 300 years after the first Greeks came to Egypt as students, their descendants returned as conquerors. They destroyed the cities, temples and libraries of the Egyptians and claimed African knowledge as their own.

Not only was the African legacy stolen, but also the wholesale theft of African people soon followed. With the birth of the slave trade, it became necessary to dehumanize Africans and devalue their historical worth as a people in order to ensure their value as slaves.

So there you have it, the negro - a race of dead people with a dead history and no hope for resurrection as long as they remained ignorant of their past. This was a triple death - the death of the mind, body, and spirit of the African people.

It was strictly forbidden for negro slaves to learn to read and write. Such knowledge was the key to liberation and was placed firmly out of reach. As negroes became educated, however, they sought to redefine themselves.

The evolution of the word negro from colored, to black, to African represents a progression of self-awareness. As a free people, we have a responsibility to educate ourselves and rediscover our Identities. Knowledge of self is the key to unlocking the door to the future.

Books:

The name "negro" its origin and evil use: Richard B. Moore
African Origins of Civilization: Cheikh Anta Diop
Stolen Legacy: George James G.M.
The Destruction of Black Civilization: Chancelor Williams
From the Browder File: Compiled & written by Anthony T. Browder