Skip to main content

It seems to me on this thread we are have two types of people. Those of us who embrace our african heritage and desire an opportunity to control and define our own destinies. Others indentify with the mainstream capitalist culture and believe by assimilating into this culture adopting its core values and contributing to the advancement of thie American Imperial Civilization. How do you guys feel about these two terms and which one do you think its most viable for African people, or can both be used? if so what are some ways we can use these ideologies to advance the conditions of African peoples
Original Post
I think it all depends on what you want. Nationalism and "Assmilitationism" are strategies to achieve an objective. Your post begs the question of whether African America should be striving for a free and independent African American land or whether we should be looking to maximize our productivity and happiness and influence within the United States.

We've debated this question quite a bit here and I think you'll find folks on both sides of this particular fence. I think there might be more on the nationalism side if someone could paint a clear and tangible picture of what the vision (and path) of that strategy is.
if you are sporting the Red black and Green flag and dont know what Nationalism is, something is very wrong with that picture. Just like people tell the whites who come here asking about racism, all this information on the net about Nationalism there is no reason an intelligent black person hasnt studied Nationalism at least from the point of understanding what it is. What I find is a lot of people pic up slogans and wear material but no nothing about what they are representing
quote:
Originally posted by ZAKAR:

if you are sporting the Red black and Green flag and dont know what Nationalism is, something is very wrong with that picture. Just like people tell the whites who come here asking about racism, all this information on the net about Nationalism there is no reason an intelligent black person hasnt studied Nationalism at least from the point of understanding what it is. What I find is a lot of people pic up slogans and wear material but no nothing about what they are representing


WHAT DO YOU WANT? Do you want a homeland within the U.S.? Do you want to go back to Africa? Do you want to be on a reservation Native American style? Would you prefer a federally owned land like the District of Columbia? Do you just want more and stronger African American run cities within the U.S.? Do you support armed insurrection against the U.S.? Should we all move to a state and take it over with a black governor, legislature, etc.?

Stop making a fool out of yourself and think about what is being asked you. I just want to know how you see a nationalistic strategy playing out and to what end.
quote:
Originally posted by ZAKAR:
It seems to me on this thread we are have two types of people. Those of us who embrace our african heritage and desire an opportunity to control and define our own destinies. Others indentify with the mainstream capitalist culture and believe by assimilating into this culture adopting its core values and contributing to the advancement of thie American Imperial Civilization. How do you guys feel about these two terms and which one do you think its most viable for African people, or can both be used? if so what are some ways we can use these ideologies to advance the conditions of African peoples
strawman fallacy
quote:
Originally posted by ZAKAR:

you can say all the negative things you want to say about me, its cool,but i put up brother. Anyway what did Marcus say, dont you have his Flag, what does that flag represent>?? you have the answers to your own questions.


Are you for real? Are you a plant from the FBI or Stormfront or something? lol Just tell me what you want. This isn't a trick question. I think Garvey was talking about Pan Africanism. You can be a Pan Africanist in the U.S. or in Africa. What do YOU want?
what ive noticed on this site, certain people never answer anything they always ask questions but never state their views. When are we gonna hear your views on anything. this your site, if you go back and look at my post I state clearly where I stand. You cats remind me of O'Reilly and them spinn doctors. Never address issues but always turn the question around. When will we ever hear where MBM stand on issues, seems to me you guys never answer a question. You are sporting a Marcus Garvey flag what do you feel about it what does it mean to you?
quote:
Originally posted by ZAKAR:

You cats remind me of O'Reilly and them spinn doctors. Never address issues but always turn the question around. When will we ever hear where MBM stand on issues, seems to me you guys never answer a question.


Damn - you caught me. You're right. I never do give my opinion about anything! Frown
All MBM is asking you ZAKAR is:

Are you a Nationalist? If so, what do you see as the end goal of nationalism? How would you go about getting there?

Many of your posts start out on the defensive. I'm sure you're not being set up, but you make brash, unsupported statements on occasion. On a board of intelligent Black folk, you have to expect someone to call you on them.

Since I have "skin in the game" ($.02 to MBM), I would not walk away from America. I wish to revive & nuture our culture, improve our political & economic savvy, and be compensated for generations of institutional disadvantage.
really i dont need you to explain to me what MBM was asking, I understand the question very well. He has the Flag i was just calling him on what the flag means. Is something wrong with that. Many people make brash unsupported statements on this board. But if someone doesnt go along with Uncle Tomism, we are unintelligent.Who has giving a strategy thats full proof here??
quote:
Originally posted by ZAKAR:

But if someone doesnt go along with Uncle Tomism, we are unintelligent.


BULLSHIT.

quote:
Who has giving a strategy thats full proof here??


No one has asked for a fool proof strategy. All I've asked for is what's on your mind. You seem to support nationalism. Cool. What flavor? Do you want to go back to Africa? Do you want to express your nationalism with an African American state somehow? I'm just trying to get a feel for what and how you think on this issue.
quote:
Originally posted by ZAKAR:

you seem to be a Nationalist too, (since you sport the Flag) im just interested in what type you stand for, where are your views on this matter?


Take a look at this thread from December 2003. Here are some highlights:

quote:
Originally posted by MBM:

I just don't see any "fixes" for our community that do not include doing things on a day-to-day basis that can improve our condition - even while planning and working toward other things. I don't believe in focusing exclusively on stretch objectives (e.g. an independent and sovereign black nation) without also doing things today to positively impact our lives. It's like forcing the gifted young athlete to also focus on his/her studies, despite the potential of professional sports. You may make it to the NBA, but if you don't - having an education provides a set of skills to enhance life. Getting more involved in our communities, voting, running for office, volunteering for campaigns, giving money to candidates, etc., etc. are all things that can empower us in our communities and positively impact our lives. Ignoring those things makes no sense to me, particularly absent a sound strategy to improve black America by other means.


quote:
Originally posted by MBM:
quote:
Originally posted by Nmaginate:

Exactly what do you mean "work the system" in the context of making RADICAL CHANGES (in the structure of American society) that Dr. King once spoke about?


I think we can change the system but only by utilizing a careful strategy that doesn't cause America to have to immediately confront itself. It's like the analogy of putting a frog in a pot of water. Throw him into boiling water and he immediately jumps out. Slowly heat the water and then all of a sudden he's cooked before he knows it.

White folks are so scared of blacks and black anger that I don't think a "confrontational" approach is the best strategy to create change. All of a sudden we start planning a revolution and I have no doubts that the Patriot Act gets supercharged and we'll think COINTELPRO was child's play. I have no doubt that a 60's revolutionary approach to black empowerment would very quickly engender a level of white fear that we'd see tanks and F-16's coming to get us Israeli style. brosmile< !--graemlin::brosmile:-->

I think we can create radical change that uplifts our community in meaningful ways, but IMO it will be by working their system, talking their language, and outplaying them at their game. You'll remember my political strategy designed to do just that is an example.
January 24, 1965. Malcolm X Speaks at OAAU Rally on Afro-American History. Listen to this Speech its on Malcolm x: A Research site.

I'm a Black Nationalist, in the Tradition of Malcolm, Nkrumah, Seku Ture, Patrice Lumumba, CLR James, and George Patmore and of course John Henrike Clarke Amos Wilson among others. I believe in African peoples uniting institutionally all around the world. I believe there can be no liberation for an African anywhere if the African Continent isn't free. I believe we have to raise our oppression here in the Americas as a question of "Human Rights" not Civil Rights. This will allow us to connect with the Global struggle for true liberation and Justice. We can never expect the very same system that enslaved us to make us free. Some people try to minimize the ability of African people uniting on a global scale around central issues pertaining to us. I don't believe all blacks in the world should just up and flock to the Continent, but I do think a core group should start migrating there building grassroots connections expanding our economic possibilities while at the same time the Africans in the Diaspora should insure they invest lobby and support Africans development. Of course we have to deal with the political economic system we are all in, but we can come together intelligently to uplift ourselves on a global scale. If you study the Africans from the different parts of the Diaspora, the problems they are facing are the very same problems we as Africans in America are facing. We have been systematically put in a position of perpetual second-class citizenship all around the world. Instead of trying to unite with every other group I believe our primary focus should be on African peoples. It all goes back to the question that was posed here before. "Who are you" African, African-American, Negro, Colored or Simply black. Whatever you consider yourself, dictates your worldview. I see myself as simply African. I have a circle of African brothers and sistas from virtually all over the world. We support one another we strategize together and I see this as the future of African people. Of course there are these Assimilations that put all their faith in this White Supremacist system and truly believe these Europeans will somehow change. I'm not one of those. I believe in using any means necessary to ensure our survival as a people. So what kind of nationalist am I" I am a BY ANY MEANS NECESSARY NATIONALIST whose whole purpose is to reverse "The Destruction of Black Civilization
quote:
Originally posted by ZAKAR:

So does that mean you are an Assimilationist or a Nationalist? What is your purpose for wearing a Marcus Garvey Flag if your not a Nationalist. do you think we should only focus on this Assimilationist strategy. What about our culture, heritage, self Determination?


Your original question has nothing to do with Pan Africanism, which is what the RBG represents. Based on what I know now, I would have to reiterate that I think African America's best chances are with maximizing our opportunity here. Now that could mean 'working the system' to earn reparations and even trying to win a chunk of land somewhere to "own". In a world where our government spends more on defense than every other country in the world combined and where it has almost unlimited ability to use COINTELPRO tactics, I just don't think a revolution - in the traditional defintion - is in our best interest or is practical.
of course it has everything to do with Pan Africanism, how can you be a Pan Africanist and an Assimilationist at the same time. Whats not practical. Do you think we will achieve anything without sacrifice.Revolutions involve many things besides guns. The first thing that has to be revolutionized is our slave thinking. Believing that the white man is so powerful that we cant do anything for ourselves without him is inferiority. I do not believe the system is unbeatable. And as far as Cointelpro, do you think its ever stopped. Do you think you can buck dance and the master wont come after you. The difference between a so called house negro and a field negro is the field negroe knows he has nothing to loose they house negro is the one that feels he has everthing to lose. When you go up against white supremacy some people will die that just how it is. Whenever you speak out against injustice the system is capable of taking you out. But if you dont find something to die for life isnt worth living
quote:
Originally posted by ZAKAR:
of course it has everything to do with Pan Africanism, how can you be a Pan Africanist and an Assimilationist at the same time. Whats not practical. Do you think we will achieve anything without sacrifice.Revolutions involve many things besides guns. The first thing that has to be revolutionized is our slave thinking. Believing that the white man is so powerful that we cant do anything for ourselves without him is inferiority. I do not believe the system is unbeatable. And as far as Cointelpro, do you think its ever stopped. Do you think you can buck dance and the master wont come after you. The difference between a so called house negro and a field negro is the field negroe knows he has nothing to loose they house negro is the one that feels he has everthing to lose. When you go up against white supremacy some people will die that just how it is. Whenever you speak out against injustice the system is capable of taking you out. But if you dont find something to die for life isnt worth living


Zakar, stop being a wanker... Look at what the US is doing around the world: in Haiti, in Iraq, in Afghanistan...etc. etc

Point is: From a practical point of view, there aren't too many places to go to be 'independent' from white America... and that's not even considering the question of where we would go even if we were all in agreement about starting our own nation.

The problem is that hard core Nationalists talk a good talk... but they almost always come up short on specifics...

Leadership ain't worth shit if you can't discuss the detailed specifics of a plan to accomplish your long term objectives.
did you guys read what i said, how you gonna say some bullshyt like that, Of course i know White Supremacy is Global, thats why i said what i said, so you assimilationist dont believe we can connect with the rest of African people? there is no way to build upon the Nationalist Pan African Movement so many have participated in since we have been here? They wasnt successful? I would say they were successful, they just didnt sustain. People sold out the masses on the Continent just like they sold out the masses here in America. Look at the Revolution that took place in Africa and the rest of the Diaspora during the 60's what was behind that push, why did so many people get killed, It was Nationalism and Pan Africanism that got the best leaders killed. Just like now. KNow if you think white folks will take it easy on you simply because you buck dance, you are fooling yourself. As we speak there is an all out assault on black people all around world, and the Democratic or Republican pary will not solve our issues. So you guys say Nationalism and Pan Africanism is Pie in the SKy I say Assimilation is a Pie in the Sky. I look at my history not rhetoric
ZAKAR - you need to try to think strategically for a moment. You would rather feel good about what you do than spend the time to think about being as effective as you can. Strategy is about determining the most effective path from point A to B. You should take a lesson from the Iraqis. Instead of attempting to meet the American Army head on, they essentially deferred the fight to a place and terms that were more to their advantage - by creating an insurgency and fighting there.

Your thinking would have you slaughtered in the desert somewhere years ago. Thinking strategically is the only way that anything positive can be achieved.
see thats why i think you cats have an agenda, Who said pull guns out right now and fight the american military. No fucking body, the only thing i said is why not join forces with african people to address our global issues. What strategically have we gained as of now? where are we in this battle. Have what we been doing tying to Assimilate and go through the Democratic party worked? Stop picking pieces of what i say and read the whole thing and put it in context. Assimilation has never worked for African people
I have long thought there are two types of Black Americans in this respect, conformists and reactionaries.

The conformists think the reactionaries are stupid and the reactionaries think the conformists are sell outs or uncle toms. The conformists get economic advantages but I think there are inherent psychological conflicts. I look and sound like a conformist most of the time but I have had a Black woman call me a reactionary and a White man call me a revolutionary. I usually don't tell most people in real space what I really think. It can cause too many problems fro my conformist pretense. lol The internet is different, I can say what I really think.

The NOI and Afrocentrics are types of reactionaries. My problem with most reactionaries is that they seem to be anti-technology and emotionally associate it sith White people rather than looking at it as a necessary form of empowerment.

Conforming and reacting are more emotional decisions rather than cold calculating wargaming. Nationalism is part of the conformity. Psychological conditioning by the White controlled educational system. I call it brainsoiling. The palefaces call it the socialization process.

umbrarchist
How can nationalism be conformity? its Revolutionary, Reactionary? Anyone who has been enslaved or colonized have to be reactionary because they are following an action that has already taken place. How can you be proactive when an action has already been taken against you. No as far as The NOI, im not it in but i many friends nad family in it. The thing about the Nation, it builds self sufficient diciplined men, who contribute positively to the black community. These are the brothers in the roughest of the rough neiborhoods doing good, who else has filled that void. The thing about so called intellectuals their rubber never meets the road, they just talk. until you get in the streets and deal with issues of our people, you have no place to criticize people doing good work in the community
quote:
quote:
Originally posted by MBM:

I just don't see any "fixes" for our community that do not include doing things on a day-to-day basis that can improve our condition - even while planning and working toward other things. I don't believe in focusing exclusively on stretch objectives (e.g. an independent and sovereign black nation) without also doing things today to positively impact our lives. It's like forcing the gifted young athlete to also focus on his/her studies, despite the potential of professional sports. You may make it to the NBA, but if you don't - having an education provides a set of skills to enhance life. Getting more involved in our communities, voting, running for office, volunteering for campaigns, giving money to candidates, etc., etc. are all things that can empower us in our communities and positively impact our lives. Ignoring those things makes no sense to me, particularly absent a sound strategy to improve black America by other means.



quote:
Originally posted by MBM:

quote:
Originally posted by Nmaginate:

Exactly what do you mean "work the system" in the context of making RADICAL CHANGES (in the structure of American society) that Dr. King once spoke about?


I think we can change the system but only by utilizing a careful strategy that doesn't cause America to have to immediately confront itself. It's like the analogy of putting a frog in a pot of water. Throw him into boiling water and he immediately jumps out. Slowly heat the water and then all of a sudden he's cooked before he knows it.

White folks are so scared of blacks and black anger that I don't think a "confrontational" approach is the best strategy to create change. All of a sudden we start planning a revolution and I have no doubts that the Patriot Act gets supercharged and we'll think COINTELPRO was child's play. I have no doubt that a 60's revolutionary approach to black empowerment would very quickly engender a level of white fear that we'd see tanks and F-16's coming to get us Israeli style. < !--graemlin::brosmile:-->

I think we can create radical change that uplifts our community in meaningful ways, but IMO it will be by working their system, talking their language, and outplaying them at their game. You'll remember my political strategy designed to do just that is an example.



if this isnt Assimilation I dont know what Assimilation means
quote:
Reactionary in relation to the dominant White culture.

Beware of Vulcans from the Dark Side


IF WE LIVE UNDER A SYSTEM OF WHITE SUPREMACY AND THE RESULT OF THIS WHITE SUPREMACY RESULTED IN THE ENSLAVEMENT AND COLONIZATION OF A RACE OF PEOPLE, EXPLAIN TO ME HOW ANYTHING WE DO TO COUNTER THIS IS ANYTHING OTHER THAN A REACTION TO WHAT HAS BEEN DONE TO US?
quote:
Originally posted by ZAKAR:
How can nationalism be conformity? its Revolutionary, Reactionary? Anyone who has been enslaved or colonized have to be reactionary because they are following an action that has already taken place. How can you be proactive when an action has already been taken against you. No as far as The NOI, im not it in but i many friends nad family in it. The thing about the Nation, it builds self sufficient diciplined men, who contribute positively to the black community. These are the brothers in the roughest of the rough neiborhoods doing good, who else has filled that void. The thing about so called intellectuals their rubber never meets the road, they just talk. until you get in the streets and deal with issues of our people, you have no place to criticize people doing good work in the community


Nationalism is reactionary because it doesn't think out its own agenda/strategy... It 'reacts'.... It just says "Let's do the opposite of whitey"

Whitey says Jesus is a dead white man... So NOI says the Christ is a living black man.

Whitey says we are the bringers of Civilization... The reactionary says No, we originated civilization

Whitey says black folk are savages ...So the reactionaries adopt super puritanical morality

Whitey says x ... The reactionary says the opposite of x

That's not thinking... it's reacting... and letting someone else determine your agenda indirectly.
Last edited {1}
I think thats a very elementary look at it. First of all the NOI not only teaches black people pride in themselves, it makes them productive members of their communities. Has the NAACP done this Urban league, are these so called reactionay organizations. Finally the Right to Self Determination is in no way simply doing the opposite of white folks. Nationalism believes in the Africans abilities to use their own culture their own heritage and their own ideology to battle this system of white Supremacy. To simply take on the characteristics of the European does not make you Progressive, regurgitating their definitions and trying to apply them to the conditions of African people does not work. We simply believe that as African people we can use our own minds to restablish our "Stolen Legacy" Reacting to the condition you find yourself under is natural. For an individual as well as a group. If a guy has his foot on my neck , I can philosophy all I want but I have to react to the fact the there is a foot on my neck and if i want to remove that foot I have to take reactionary action to the fact someone put their foot on my neck
quote:
Originally posted by umbrarchist:
I have long thought there are two types of Black Americans in this respect, conformists and reactionaries.

The conformists think the reactionaries are stupid and the reactionaries think the conformists are sell outs or uncle toms. The conformists get economic advantages but I think there are inherent psychological conflicts. I look and sound like a conformist most of the time but I have had a Black woman call me a reactionary and a White man call me a revolutionary. I usually don't tell most people in real space what I really think. It can cause too many problems fro my conformist pretense. lol The internet is different, I can say what I really think.

The NOI and Afrocentrics are types of reactionaries. My problem with most reactionaries is that they seem to be anti-technology and emotionally associate it sith White people rather than looking at it as a necessary form of empowerment.

Conforming and reacting are more emotional decisions rather than cold calculating wargaming. Nationalism is part of the conformity. Psychological conditioning by the White controlled educational system. I call it brainsoiling. The palefaces call it the socialization process.

umbrarchist



I try extremely hard not to comment on references made to NOI and the like.....

but to the irritation of not a few on this site I must make a comment and then leave...

Unfortunately, I find your assessment of NOI and Afrocentrists (though they are varied) extremely and woefully simplistic.....

The NOI is very complex...... but most only judge it from a cursory and subconsciously biased standpoint......

It's just not as black and white as being "reactionary"....

Indeed much of what is done is the complete opposite........

Yet, this is a good thing....

well thought out strategy is not for all to see.....

Peace,
Virtue
quote:
Originally posted by ZAKAR:

if this isnt Assimilation I dont know what Assimilation means


Obviously you don't.

Assimilation:

  • In the social sciences, assimilation is the process of integration whereby immigrants, or other minority groups, are "absorbed" into a generally larger community. This presumes a loss of all characteristics which make the newcomers different. A region where assimilation is occurring is sometimes referred to as a "melting pot".

  • When one ethnic group absorbs another, so that the cultural traits of the assimilated group become indistinguishable.

  • The process whereby a group gradually adopts the characteristics of another culture.


  • As mentioned, complete assimilation in America would be inconsistent with one recognizing and affirming an African American identity.

    You confuse strategy with identity. Think about it.
    quote:
    Originally posted by ZAKAR:
    Finally the Right to Self Determination is in no way simply doing the opposite of white folks. Nationalism believes in the Africans abilities to use their own culture their own heritage and their own ideology to battle this system of white Supremacy. To simply take on the characteristics of the European does not make you Progressive, regurgitating their definitions and trying to apply them to the conditions of African people does not work. We simply believe that as African people we can use our own minds to restablish our "Stolen Legacy"


    In theory, I completely agree with everything you just said... but my problem comes with the way the typical Nationalist usually carries this out...

    You can always see it coming when they start shouting down the "intellectuals" and those who accept "European definitions". They've only read a few books - Malcolm X, Elijah Muhammad, or Cheikh Anta Diop maybe - and then conveniently forget that Anta Diop was educated in European institutions and used European originated ideas and methodologies to carry out his work.

    Again, Nationalists think we can assert or discover our culture by simply denying the European - again Reactionary - not thinking - just reacting....

    Nationalist tend to have this naive idea of a "lost" or "stolen" knowledge and don't seem to realize that knowledge is less like gold (which can be hoarded, maintains its value, and can be stolen) and more like contemporary currency (when wisely invested, it increases its value through time).

    The truth is that gaining knowledge is hard and it won't be done by ignoring Europe altogether.

    Add Reply

    Post
    ×
    ×
    ×
    ×
    Link copied to your clipboard.
    ×