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Muslim girl suspended for head scarf



Saturday, October 11, 2003


The school board is expected to have a decision next Wednesday on whether Hern can return to school wearing her head scarf, officials said.


OKLAHOMA CITY (Reuters) -- An 11-year-old Oklahoma girl has been suspended from a public school because officials said her Muslim head scarf violates dress code policies.

Board officials met Friday to discuss the fate of suspended sixth-grader Nashala "Tallah" Hern, who was asked to leave school in the eastern Oklahoma town of Muskogee on October 1 because she refused to remove her head scarf, called a "hijab."

School officials instituted a dress code in 1997 prohibiting the wearing of hats and other head coverings indoors. Officials said they implemented the code to stem gang-related activity. Hern declined to remove her hijab, saying it would violate the way she observes her religion.

Officials at the school, the Ben Franklin Science Academy, previously summoned Hern to the office on September 11 to inform her she was no longer allowed to wear the scarf. She had worn it since the school year started a few weeks earlier.

A school attorney said federal education rules adopted in 1998 do not allow for exceptions for religious beliefs.

"As I see it right now, I don't think we can make a special accommodation for religious wear," said school attorney D.D. Hayes. "You treat religious items the same as you would as any other item, no better, no worse. Our dress code prohibits headgear, period."

He added that, under the dress code, a Jewish child would not be allowed to wear a yarmulke, the skullcap traditionally worn by orthodox Jews, to school.

Rabiah Ahmed, a spokeswoman for the Washington D.C.-based Council on American-Islamic Relations, said the Muslim girl is being singled out because of her religious beliefs.

The girl's father met with school officials Friday in a closed-door hearing to appeal the decision. The school board is expected to have a decision next Wednesday on whether the girl can return to school wearing her head scarf, officials said.

http://www.cnn.com/2003/EDUCATION/10/11/scarf.reut/index.html


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I thought only Christianity was being attacked and not allowed in American schools and society as a whole? I'm confused? Can a [Southern] CONservative help me? Big Grin
quote:
Officials said they implemented the code to stem gang-related activity.

Ricardo, don't you know that there is Zero Tolerance. No rules can be broken. No interpretations are necessary. The RULES are the rules!

Honestly... what planet and country is this stuff coming from?
fool
I am always reluctant to pick up the porcupine, Religion. But there is always this fascination.

A local school district established a place for a single Islamic student to go to for prayers required by the religion to take place several times a day. Maybe the operatting word here is "required." There is no provision for prayers by the followers of any other religion, and no indication the reserved space may be used for prayers by non-Islamics. Clearly, this is a "slippery slope" decision.

I just remembered there was a song in the 70s entitled, "We Don't Smoke Marijuana In Muskogee." Means nothing.

The head scarf issue is going to get "sticky." The yamulke issue may come to haunt this decision. And there is an irony here in that the local cleric said the girl was be singled out because of her religion. In the local instance a single student was also involved. No one from the Islamic community called it being "singled out."

If this is allowed, and clearly, the headwear is an integral part of the religion, what happens when the apparel becomes a safety issue, for example, as in an industrial setting?
It will become more than just an issue of right or wrong, but one of liability and enforcement.

Religion, Religion, Religion. You can get hung by it.

PEACE

Jim Chester

You are who you say you are. Your children are who you say you are.
quote:
Originally posted by isistah:
Hey Ricardo, I hope my ip address is only visable to me!


Isistah,

Yes, everybody sees their own IP and other info.

Spooky, huh? Eek

You can see the image alone at

http://www.danasoft.com/vipersig.jpg

If you want to see something funny, here's a thread devoted to Forums where the image has been banned:

http://www.danasoft.com/yabbse/index.php?board=1;action=display;threadid=65



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A term used by the descendents of European Immigrants to refer to descendants of Native Americans


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Wearing a scarf or a yarmulke for strictly religious reasons is a long way for wearing head gear because of gang associations. That said if they truly treat all head gear including the yarmulke as the same then fine. But I believe that if a person of Jewish faith wore his they would probably find a way to get around the rule.
quote:
A local school district established a place for a single Islamic student to go to for prayers required by the religion to take place several times a day. Maybe the operatting word here is "required." There is no provision for prayers by the followers of any other religion, and no indication the reserved space may be used for prayers by non-Islamics. Clearly, this is a "slippery slope" decision.


Chester...

Keep your ignorance out of this.

"There is no provision for prayers by the followers of any other religion"

What other religions you know of, as they are practiced here in the U.S. have a set prayer schedule?

Do Christians pray 5, 6, 7 or so structured, prescribed and time designated prayers as the normal practice of their faith?

What other religions would have defined prayers (i.e. particular scriptures and specific recitations) to conduct along a spiritually significant schedule at these kinds of times of day?

5:27 a.m. - 12:41 p.m. - 4:01 p.m. - 6:38 p.m. - 7:54 p.m.

And what other faith requires postration during prayer?

Certainly, you can't compare "other religions" because none of them, to my knowledge, have such across-the-board requirements. Just because Christians have a laizze faire approach to their religion and issues of them wanting "space" to practice their religion is a matter of their preference does not mean that others should have that same lacked and/or unstructured approach.

BTW...
Would a school not allow Christian girls not to wear long skirts or dresses if somehow that was "gang-related"? There are accomodations made for gym classes with respect to the modesty that even some Christians prefer to have. I don't see some school coming up with a rule that says girls must were "revealing" shorts during gym time.

A little common sense is all that is needed. And people have to stop playing Sour Grapes. "How come they get to do it!"

This country needs to grow the f-ck up!
"Hern declined to remove her hijab, saying it would violate the way she observes her religion."

I am amazed by the strength this eleven year old child had. Smile When confronted by adults at the school, she stood her ground and refused to allow them to coerce her into doing something that was against her religion.

And how dare they approach her at the school, rather than discussiong it with her parents at the end of the school day!

And no - I do not feel the school should've made an issue out of her head gear in the first place. But if they must - why gang up on a child rather than going to her parents?
I missed it at first but this "confrontation" apparently happened on 9/11.

Am I the only one who thinks that has something to do with all this? Americans and their perceptions of "those" Moslem people being a "threat" or at least suspicious...

That's not even to mention that school had been in session several weeks... I know parents are to some extent responsible for knowing the dress code but seriously that was something that should have been professionally addressed.

School officials should have at least contacted and met with the girl's parents after the girl refused to take off her 'scarf' (perhaps they did... but it doesn't sound like it) and explained, if they could, why she would have to remove her head-dress because of a rule enacted to stem gang activity.
That it happened on 9/11 is no coincidence. They are using the "gang-related dress code" as an excuse to pick on an eleven year old child. Doing this on 9/11 only reinforces their motive.

They should NEVER have approached the child about removing it in the first place. They aren't stupid. They knew wearing the head-dress was a part of her religious beliefs.

I think they wanted to humiliate her. Like I said - I'm glad she stood her ground.
This is a great example of how people can use the law to discriminate against people. I think that it's immoral to not allow her to wear the head dress because it represents part of her beliefs. From dress codes similiar to the one this school seems to have adopted allows exceptions for religious beliefs. For example a person who is practices Judaism is allowed to wear their beanie styled caps. This "zero tolerence" rule has become the norm in schools, and it is teaching our children a lesson of unacceptance in life.
Rules are rules....I don't agree with the new zone defense in the NBA, but if I don't abide by the rules, I can't play the game. It's a shame that people contain their religion in "things". I've seen muslims who don't wear a hijab...are they any less muslim? Is islam in your clothes or in your heart? Same thing with Christianity. Someone tells you that you can't wear a cross and they want to go to the supreme court..Wearing a cross doesn't make you a Christian (look at any rapper) and wearing a hijab doesn't make you a muslim...It's time for religious folk to grow up and stop taking these "things" so seriously....
The point I'm trying to make here is that the rule is so open-ended that it is a cesspool to be interpreted for another agenda. Again, I must reiterate that the "zero-tolerance" policies being implemented in schools around the country are teaching children to be narrow minded and breeding ignorance. It's not fair to the children in this particular situation.
I think that it's time for folks period to grow up and stop stunting maturity of our children for their own agendas.

Our people have made the mistake of confusing the methods with the objectives. As long as we agree on objectives, we should never fall out with each other just because we believe in different methods, or tactics, or strategy. We have to keep in mind at all times that we are not fighting for separation. We are fighting for recognition as free humans in this society
Malcolm X, 1965
Zero-tolerance should apply only in certain situations. I mean, do you even have kids? Were you even a kid or did someone just pour water on you and you became an instant adult?
Zero-tolerance for weapons, OK. However, for dress code and religious expression as in this case, there is definitely room to bend there. SO again, I don't see what the problem is here with the head gear.

Our people have made the mistake of confusing the methods with the objectives. As long as we agree on objectives, we should never fall out with each other just because we believe in different methods, or tactics, or strategy. We have to keep in mind at all times that we are not fighting for separation. We are fighting for recognition as free humans in this society
Malcolm X, 1965
quote:
I've seen muslims who don't wear a hijab...are they any less muslim?

Watcher??

What is your point? What are you saying that everyone must conform to NON-EDUCATIONAL rules? What does wearing hijab has to do with aquiring education?

That's the "rules of the game" there! If her wearing the hijab interferes with the educational process then it is "breaking the rules"!

Common sense.

Is every Muslim suppose to dress alike? You're saying that since you know Muslims that don't ascribe significance to wearing the hijab should dictate what ALL Muslim do.

It's not about what YOU think! People should have the freedom of choice to wear whatever they want that, in this case, does not cause problems like gang-related problems at school.

When schools can allow kids to wear all kinds of revealing clothing (and I'm pretty sure there's some girls showing clevage at some school and probably the one in question) but attack this girl on a TECHNICALITY then they are very hypocritical and you know it!

Your analogy doesn't fit!
the problem here is this: the local gang member can say "you let the muslim girl wear a scarf but say I can't wear mine? that's not fair"...No hats in the building means no hats. If you need to wear a hat for any reason, then don't come into the building. They have dress codes in business and other places in society...so why not learn in school?
quote:
Rules are rules....

Is that the kind of stuff you would have said under segregation?

Just because rules are made at one time doesn't mean they shouldn't be re-interpreted and made meaningful for every "new" situation that obviously in this case is very different from the one that gave rise to the rule in the first place.

Common sense. I'm astounded by how intelligence is suspended because something is a "rule".
quote:
the problem here is this: the local gang member can say "you let the muslim girl wear a scarf but say I can't wear mine? that's not fair"...No hats in the building means no hats. If you need to wear a hat for any reason, then don't come into the building. They have dress codes in business and other places in society...so why not learn in school?

Where in the business world are Muslim women who choose to wear a hajib forced not to?

Raise an intelligent issue will you...

The crux of the rule is all about things that distract from the educational process. Hats really are immaterial.

FYI... in case you couldn't figure it out, there are places in society and the business world where this is NOT an issue. So, kids should learn that too!

They should learn that will live in a complex world with complex issues with people who are not UNIFORMED in their opinions, dress, and opinions about dress.

It's not taking anything away from the educational process. And since rigidity-stupidity reigns with people like you the girls family should sue the hell out that school and appeal it ad infinitum until she gets a righteous judge who doesn't think with simpleton logic that "rules are rules".
quote:
American Airlines will pay $60,000 to a woman who was denied a uniformed job because she wanted to wear an Islamic religious head covering on duty.

Veiled threat? Muslim women forsaking scarves
President Bush... Speaking at the Islamic Center in Washington shortly after the tragedies, he said:
"Women who cover their heads in this country must feel comfortable going outside their homes. Moms who wear cover must not be intimidated in America. That's not the America I know. That's not the America I value."

hmmm........
Last time I checked, Bush didn't work for American Airlines. So, due to Bush the woman got her cash? Is that it?

Is there supposed to be some point to posting this here? Was the woman also ugly as a goat for example? Or is this an 'anti-uniform' sentiment growing amongst the left?

Were you going to comment on this eventually one way or the other?
Are you that stupid naturally or are you just a "square" who can't even make a good jab?

Those are two separate instances where [1] in the business world and [2] in the larger American society the right of Muslim women to wear their hijab is defended.

Not as though you would or did, but if you read or had read ThaWatchers and my exchange you would know what those references were for. He made the comment that "rules are rules" and that school children should learn to conform to rules because of the will have to learn to do so in society and in the business world, specifically referencing the subject of this thread.

Well... I supported my rebuttal that Muslim women wearing their religious garb is accepted in society and the business world and the fact that we live in a world where everything is not conformed to one standard or mold across the board.

Again, as only you can, you play the DUMBY role so well.

BTW...
What part of me listing his NAME at the beginning of my post didn't you understand?
Considering that it is 2003, every school should already have in their school policy how it should handle or accomodate religous head dress. I think religous head dress and gang head dress is easily distinguished. I personally see no purpose in women being required to cover their head, arms, etc., but I believe the women that do have every right to do so. I do not think religon should be taught in school unless students are going to be taught about ALL religons, but at the same time, the school has to respect all religous preferences that do not interfear with learning and tranquility in the school.
Nmaginate:

I carry my ignorance with me wherever I go. So do you. We try to make the burden smaller, but some level of ignorance is always with us.

In this case, your wrong. How many times a day you pray, or whether it is specified or not is immaterial.

The fact is as stated.

No big deal. But that is the fact.

PEACE

Jim Chester

You are who you say you are. Your children are who you say you are.
Again, CHESTER, I ask the obligatory question (since you like to avoid others) WHAT THE HELL ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT?

The point is what you said here:
"There is no provision for prayers by the followers of any other religion, and no indication the reserved space may be used for prayers by non-Islamics. Clearly, this is a "slippery slope" decision."
...and not some undisclosed FACT or anything about ignorance. That point about ignorance is that you obviously know nothing about or rather you have no wisdom or understanding about how Islamic prayers differ from other religions.

Now, in religions like Islam and in African traditions IGNORANCE is a SIN... but you holdfast to your Western-American American notion that IGNORANCE is bliss and, I guess, should be honored...

Stay on the point! Can you defend what you said? NO! Can you say you did that with full knowledge of what you were talking about particularly some knowledge about Islam... apparently NOT!

THE ISSUE OF PRAYER is particularly immaterial to this topic... but you brought it up!

NO BIG DEAL! Just don't show your ignorance and it will be no big deal.

PS...
When you don't know what the hell you're talking about, it's best not to comment as if you do!

Peace and Love!
She's a beautiful child. Americans always focus on the mundane. Yet, some little dude can have his pants flapping in the breeze, at his hips; some little chick can have a dress just below her crotch and it's A-Ok to be walking the school corridors. There's absolutely something wrong with this picture. Caucasians are always right, everybody has to dance to their beat (we know they have none). Who made them the God of the Earth, rulers of everybody??
Nmaginate:

Brother!! Religion is not my thing here. The point of the post was showing favor to a religion. The IMPLICATION through omission is that no other religion is addressed.

I don't think any part of this is about a single religion. Apparently you do.

Your advice/request/demand to "Stay on the point!" is good.

We all should observe it.

PEACE

Jim Chester

You are who you say you are. Your children are who you say you are.
C'mon now ya'll...you know that they have dress restrictions against daisy dukes and halter tops etc...some schools in Mass have banned showing belly buttons and the low-cut jeans...

She would have a case if the schools was allowing Jews and Hindus etc to wear head garments to express religion. This schools has specifically said "no headgarments..period", not for gang identification or religious expression....rules are rules, if you want to play the game, you have to follow the rules...
quote:
I don't think any part of this is about a single religion. Apparently you do.

Quickly that's not what I'm saying at all... What I was trying to illustrate is that it - Islam - is so unique in it's practice (to my knowledge) that saying this is an example of "showing favor to a religion" to the exclusion of others is inaccurate, simplistic and devoid of understanding.
quote:
The point of the post was showing favor to a religion. The IMPLICATION through omission is that no other religion is addressed.

I will remind you that the thread is about a School Dress Code... you interjected PRAYER. And any reference to Jewish head-dress in the source article was hypothetical and for all reality, case specific purposes, irrelevant.

That notwithstanding, tell me what has been the issue with Prayer In Schools?

To my knowledge the major objections over the years have been, like the Pledge Of Allegiance, the problematic nature of potentially alienating students by OFFICIAL, organized and OBLIGATORY observance of a particular religion or rather of religion at all.

I would not classify having a room we a student or students go on their own without interfering with other students either by taking up common area spaces with a large group that impedes the activities of other students or by loud and audibly encroaching proselytizing.

Matter of fact, when I was in high school I used to 'hang out' and listen to a couple of "fire & bremstone" would-be evangelist (one brother I dearly loved and has since passed-away... Frown) and we (or mostly they) would read scripture & preach. And, of course, PRAY, not to mention it was done at assemblies - i.e. INVOCATIONS at graduations - and with every sports team I was on and it's not a stretch to say it still happens now.

The CONSTITUTION says not to ESTABLISH RELIGION. That is to say institutionalize it - i.e. teach it (one) or observe it in an official function.

It's ironic that Christmas & Easter are more or less observed (indirectly)... as well as those instance of PRAYER I just mentioned.... and those prayers are no doubt "Christian" in orientation. So in that sense... you can say that NO OTHER RELIGION besides Christianity is addressed though I think conscious people try to steer towards prayers do not implicate one particular religion.

It's funny how THOSE issues have not been addressed to my knowledge and how they are INSTITIUTIONAL in nature.

THE POINT IS: (besides the fact that this thread is not about school prayer)

Students already have "space" to observe their religions and even pray or at least my personal experience says so. So by default their religions are addressed.

My point in specifically noting when and how Muslims pray was to say that for the most part Christians, for example, can and do pray standing up, at lunch time (which was when my group 'convened') or whenever. SO THERE IS SPACE FOR THEM. They are addressed by default because the demands of their faith are met and their faith doesn't demand by doctrine anything more than that.

There are no specific provisions in their faiths that require or has ever, to my knowledge, "requested" (for lack of a better term) the "space" that a Muslim prayer observer does. Now, from what I know, that Noon Day prayer or any of them can be "made up" later in the day...

NOW PLEASE INFORM ME OTHERWISE...

What we have with this Everybody and Everything Should Be Treated the Same is a childish idea that everyone MUST Do the same thing otherwise its not fair. That's FORCED assimilation at its best. It becomes particularly problematic when that's applied blindly to people of different cultural/religious backgrounds where somethings are just different - e.g. requirements on prayer. Americans (those that are AMERICANIZED) - meaning those that have "American" culture at their base - have problems understanding those differences because so many of us are essentially alike in that regards.

WE NEED TO HAVE AN INTELLIGENT DISCUSSION...
and stop making juvenile, uninformed and unqualified objections.
quote:
She would have a case if the schools was allowing Jews and Hindus etc to wear head garments to express religion.

What Jews or Hindus have petition or challenged school dress codes?

Do you know of a case? If neither has made a case?? HOW CAN THEY BE ALLOWED?

What are the schools suppose to specifically say, "Hey! You Jews! Hey! You Hindus! YOU CAN WEAR YOUR RELIGIOUS HEAD WEAR!"

And FYI:
There are schools... school*S* ... that don't make an issue out of it. I've seen more and more of it. It's just that this particular school made it an issue.

And we also know that all schools DON'T have strict dress codes that restrict all manner of "questionable" clothing. The problem here is FORCED CULTURAL ASSIMILATION.

Watcher... you are less than understanding because represent the culture that is forcing the assimilation.

We should all be treated the same DOES NOT mean we should all BE the same.

There's a difference.
...rules are rules, if you want to play the game, you have to follow the rules. Oh yeah; sookey-sookey now!!! And most of the people that follow that motto end up DEAD, DEAD, DEAD. If one has one ounce of sense of any kind, they'd better think independently and follow their conscience. Do the right thing, not what some other mother's child says....if you want to live past the age of 12!!!!!!! (maybe.)
Portions of a post of mine from another site:
quote:
My position is that there's an intersection of a lot of things here. Because of the dubious timing - when it happened - and her faith, I reasonably question whether the motivation has something to do with what her faith and culture represents.

I can only wonder since no info. is given... if she attend that same school and/or same school system in previous years. From the information given, the rule has been on the books for several years, since 1997. It would seem to me that a school and perhaps the entire school district K-12 would have a uniform rule regarding this, maybe not. However, IF she attended the same school (different grade) last year... that makes the timing even more problematic, not to mention the selective enforcement.

The girl is 11 years old... what grade would she be in? Is that grade level housed in the same school building/proper or the same school system in terms of the "hat rule"?

Those are important questions when it comes to the enforcement of this policy especially when the argument is that she shouldn't get special treatment. IF somehow she was allow to before in the same school then she had already received "special treatment" and any type of jealousy from other kids would have already been felt.... and.... the fact that it wasn't enforced before would have given the impression that there was no problem with it and that it was causing a problem.

BTW... that's what rules are for... to stop problems.

It shouldn't take a genius to recognize that!
Also that begs the question:

What inherent problem did/has wearing her scarf cause?

It goes without saying what's problematic in clothing that could signify undeniable gang affiliation - i.e. a cocked hat - as well as clothing that is too revealing.

OKAY! What's problematic about her scarf other than "Not Everybody Gets To Do It!"?
(boy... what a childish rationale)
"the right of Muslim women to wear their hijab is defended"

Seems the state of Florida disagrees, and about 4 other states have disallowed muslim women from wearing coverings that hide their features when taking photo ids or driver licenses photos. Also, when traffic officers stop a car they are lawfully justified in asking the women to remove the coverings as well. And I needn't remind you that the military could literally grab the veil and trash it if they so desired.

In addition, your own little 'american airlines' paragraph here, which you are calling a topic, doesn't even say she has the 'right' to wear anything, all it says that AA paid her off.
This could very well mean they wanted to get rid of her rather than go to court.

So, are you going to claim that she won that right in a court of law? SHOW US, or stop making up half-assed stories magnet.

"in the larger American society the right of Muslim women to wear their hijab is defended."

Question seems to be, defended by "WHOM"????? The Aryan Nation surely has its defenders as well. So what???
Which 'defenders' is it that YOU are talking about here maginate??

(watch, he won't know)
quote:
Seems the state of Florida disagrees, and about 4 other states have disallowed muslim women from wearing coverings that hide their features when taking photo ids or driver licenses photos.
That's a whole different issue entirely, IMO.

It does in fact interfere with the nature of i.d./Driver's License processes...

I haven't read all of your post but I don't have to in order to educate you on the difference!

FIRST... you should know the CONTEXT in which something is said and considered the statements you think you have the intellect to attack within the TOTALITY of what someone has said and not aSSume that they are making sweeping statements.

ALSO... You should know what a CRITERION is!
This is the one that I prefaced my remarks on:
quote:
People should have the freedom of choice to wear whatever they want that, in this case, does not cause problems like gang-related problems at school.

The crux of the rule is all about things that distract from the educational process. Hats really are immaterial.

FYI... in case you couldn't figure it out, there are places in society and the business world where this is NOT an issue. So, kids should learn that too!

They should learn that will live in a complex world with complex issues with people who are not UNIFORMED in their opinions, dress, and opinions about dress.

It's not taking anything away from the educational process. And since rigidity-stupidity reigns with people like you the girls family should sue the hell out that school and appeal it ad infinitum until she gets a righteous judge who doesn't think with simpleton logic that "rules are rules".
quote:
People should have the freedom of choice to wear whatever they want that, in this case, does not cause problems like gang-related problems at school...

con·text
1 : the parts of a discourse that surround a word or passage and can throw light on its meaning
2 : the interrelated conditions in which something exists or occurs :


cri·te·ri·on
* a standard on which a judgment or decision may be based
quote:
In addition, your own little 'american airlines' paragraph here, which you are calling a topic, doesn't even say she has the 'right' to wear anything, all it says that AA paid her off.
This could very well mean they wanted to get rid of her rather than go to court.

It was a LINK IntelliBRO!
quote:
So, are you going to claim that she won that right in a court of law? SHOW US, or stop making up half-assed stories magnet.
READ!!! MR. KNOW-IT-ALL!
quote:
... American said in 1999, it enacted a Religious Accommodation Policy, which permits the wearing of hijabs, crucifixes, yamulkes and other religious attire and jewelry by uniformed customer contact employees.

The policy also established employee prayer rooms at American locations, allowed time away from duty for certain prayer obligations and recognized the prayer obligation needs of customers on board American aircraft.

So what do you call that? A WIN or A LOSS?

You know... MBM should ban you... not because of your contrary remarks but because you are a WASTE OF HUMAN TIME and HUMAN POTENTIAL.

HINT: On this board, if you see words/sentences underlined... and that little hand shows up in play of your arrow/cursor... It's a hyperlink - some magical thing that will take you to a source article.

So... MR. CHESTER! Maybe ALL religions WILL be address when and if this girl sues her school. The business precedent is certainly different but may be useful!

SGT! As you can see she got PAID and got some BENEFITS too!
(By now, you should know not to challenge me!)

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