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I'm going to steal some words from a speech I heard by Clarence Mason Weaver (a graduate of UC Berkeley, veteran of Vietnam, and former black panther). All the words aren't exact, but you get the idea.

quote:
Clarence Mason Weaver: See, we as black people need to look at some aspects of our culture and say "That's gooood.. we should keep that" and other stuff and say "That's stupid". We should look at other cultures and look at what they do and incorporate some of that also.

I have plenty of Italian friends who are proud to be Italian and proud of their heritage, and I don't ever see them running around on Roman day wearing togas or anything.

I've got plenty of German friends, proud of their heritage, and I don't ever see them running about on Viking day wearing helmets with horns and all.

So why do we (blacks) have to have a whole month... the darkest, coldest, dreariest, sorriest month of the year...? You see.. that's stupid.

You see folks, people want to divide us into two groups, blacks vs hispanics, whites vs blacks, etc.. and they want to get us to fight against eachother.

The Romans, they called it "Divide and Conquer". In the South they called it "Separate but Equal". Today they call it "Multiculturalism". Same game, different name.


Guys, there's a Civil war going on in this country. Left vs Right. It's not as bloody as the first Civil War, but it's just as intense. There have become two distinctly separate groups of people in this country fighting against eachother.

I come on this board and see some debate, a lot of hatred, and much entitlement thinking.

The reason 97% of rich people are rich isn't because they were priveledged. 3% of the wealthy in this nation inherited their money. 97% of the wealthy started as an employee and/or started to work for themselves as self-employed. Michael Dell (white), Sam Walton (white), C. Mason Weaver (African American), Ray Kroc (white), Bill Gates (white), Robert Kiyosaki (Japanese-American), Juan Ortiz (Immigrated from Mexico), George Halsey (African American), etc.. etc... etc.. ALL of these people came from "average" (or in the case of some of them, such as Juan Ortiz who lived in horrible poverty for his whole upbringing and is now a highly successful business owner and successful public speaker), and they all are now highly successful.

They aren't successful because they were lucky, or everything worked out that way, or it just happened, nor did someone hand it to them in reparations. Every single one of them has stories of difficult times, horrible tragedies, people discriminating against them for one reason or another, failing parts (or whole) of their businesses, some living homeless at times, and other hardships. BUT they became successful. I know how and why they became successful, and I know that anyone can do what they did in their own way, and become successful on their own.

My point is this, it does not matter what race you are, it does not matter what people do to you (short of killing you personally I guess), you can be successful. Life is not fair by any means, but for those who choose it, success is available.

Evil can only triumph when good men do nothing.
--------------------------------------- Evil can only triumph when good men do nothing.
Original Post

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This is not news about the left vs. the right. This has been over 40 years in the making of what we have today. It really came to light during the Civil Rights Movement.
Now I feel as if I'm entitled to be treated as a human being. To me that means, do unto others as you would have them do unto you. If white folks, who are both on the left and right just trying to maintain their own power in this world, want to be treated with respect and humanity they ought to treat all non-whites that way. Maybe so many people wouldn't be hostile towards them. But it's too late and now they are reaping what they've sown in the country. And now they want to act surprised, the nerve.

Our people have made the mistake of confusing the methods with the objectives. As long as we agree on objectives, we should never fall out with each other just because we believe in different methods, or tactics, or strategy. We have to keep in mind at all times that we are not fighting for separation. We are fighting for recognition as free humans in this society
Malcolm X, 1965
What did I do to you? Tell me, what did I do to prevent you from getting ahead? I'm 22 years old, tell me.. What did I do to prevent any African American from getting ahead?

Some of my best friends are black (they prefer black to African American... they reason if they went back to Africa, would they be African American Africans? And if they came back, would they be African American African Americans?)... ANYHOW.. yes, some of my best friends are black. I attend a church that is 98% black, and I'm welcomed there, and I enjoy it. There are some people there (just like in the rest of society) that have poverty thinking, and I can't help them at all (poverty thinking is people who actually believe that they'll never succeed). And there are some that I have come to know better because of their thinking (they believe they can succeed in life), and we are working together to benefit the both of us, and we're becoming better people and more successful as a result.

So tell me, what did I do to prevent you or any other African American from succeeding? Even if I could be held accountable for what my ancestors did, my ancestors came here WAY after slavery ended. We don't put a guy's kid in jail after he dies with an unfinished sentence do we? By the reparations logic, we should.

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Evil can only triumph when good men do nothing.
Your family came here after slavery, but what did they do or how did they stand up to prevent the evil of Jim Crow racism and segregation? Did they ever say that the wholesale murder of black americans and native americans was wrong at ANY time? No like most immigrants they sat back and took advantage of their whiteness and all the privileges it brought. To quote you, Evil can only triumph when good men do nothing. And today all you can talk about is slavery. No one wants to be reminded of Jim Crow. Too bad. Discomfort is always the catalyst to make one move off their behinds.

Our people have made the mistake of confusing the methods with the objectives. As long as we agree on objectives, we should never fall out with each other just because we believe in different methods, or tactics, or strategy. We have to keep in mind at all times that we are not fighting for separation. We are fighting for recognition as free humans in this society
Malcolm X, 1965
Barwick:

You are twenty-two minutes old. You barely know what day it is let alone what time it is. Sociologically, you are a child. I don't justify myself to children. Clearly, I wouldn't try to explain such a subject to one. If you are sincere in your concern for me and others like me. Go somewhere and read. Then spend some time looking, observing if you prefer. Then come back. Maybe, then we can talk.

PEACE

Jim Chester

JWC
Hey Jim these guys are just a bunch of racists from this site.

Our people have made the mistake of confusing the methods with the objectives. As long as we agree on objectives, we should never fall out with each other just because we believe in different methods, or tactics, or strategy. We have to keep in mind at all times that we are not fighting for separation. We are fighting for recognition as free humans in this society
Malcolm X, 1965
quote:
Originally posted by Jim Chester:
Barwick:

You are twenty-two minutes old. You barely know what day it is let alone what time it is. Sociologically, you are a child. I don't justify myself to children. Clearly, I wouldn't try to explain such a subject to one. If you are sincere in your concern for me and others like me. Go somewhere and read. Then spend some time looking, observing if you prefer. Then come back. Maybe, then we can talk.

PEACE

Jim Chester

JWC


Ooooooh.. you're so high and mighty because you're older than me.. congratulations. Your points that you now present in the future will have about ZERO value to me thanks to your ignorance and inability to debate me without anything but name calling.

Read? You're kidding me right? Both myself and just 5 other business owners I know probably read more than all the rest of this board combined. Do you know anyone who's read an average of one book every other day of his life? Ok...

Oh and I'm not talking about novels like Jurassic Park and Murder Mysteries, I'm talking history, personal development, leadership, and biblical books.

As for Yssys: I don't know what they did, I do know my grandparents had black friends, something people don't usually do if they're trying to keep segregation in place. Nobody here is denying that segregation and Jim Crow laws are wrong. My point is EVERY SINGLE PERSON here in this country has an equal chance right now to be successful. Unless they sit and whine about how unfair things are.

Like I said, I'm 22 years old, I wasn't priveledged, but I now own a successful business outside my regular job, that's enabled my wife to stay home with the child we're expecting. Know what? My parents didn't help me with it. The Government didn't offer me money to start it up (except for tax breaks from the money they already took from me, because I'm investing into my business). Nobody came out and said "I pick you to be successful, come here". Instead, I stood out from the crowd and earned time with highly successful people, while others said "Oh I've got to go play golf this weekend", I was out building my business. It's called sacrifice. And now you want me to pay to give you something for free because of something that was done YEARS ago, something you should have recovered from already.

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Evil can only triumph when good men do nothing.
quote:
Originally posted by Yssys:
Hey Jim these guys are just a bunch of racists from http://www.protestwarrior.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=2148&highlight=africanamerica+org.



Oh that's brilliant. I disagree with you, and you can't come back with much besides "You owe me" and "You're a racist". Like I said the FIRST TIME you said "These guys from that site are racist", I had an African American guy say to me "Get away from me you stupid cracker, I hate you", so all African American men must be racist towards white guys. Give me a break, start using your mind, and stop playing the race card.

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Evil can only triumph when good men do nothing.
Okay, Barwick. No name-calling, just straight-up exchange of ideas.

You asked "what did I do". Like so many others, you make the mistake of thinking it's a judgement of your actions. Almost implying that racism is a result of behavior - it's our own fault and that if we blacks ACTED a certain way there would be no racism. By and large, this has nothing to do with actions or behavior, it's about just existing.

Your ancestors may have come here after slavery. They may not have made the rules but they reaped the benefits of whiteness. The analogy I've used before is suppose 300 years ago my ancestor and your ancestor both had gold. Your ancestor stole my ancestors' gold; rendering him poverty-stricken with no recourse. Your ancestor invests the stolen goods and prospers. Subsequent generations enjoy good educations, political influence, and more prosperity. Now, you personally may not have stolen from my ancestors but you presently benefit.

You own a business. What your whiteness affords you - a much better chance of securing capital and a line of credit from a bank, a lower rate for insurance, other white people who will network with you simply because you're like them.

Recovered from already? As a continually reading businessperson, you are aware of the Katz uproar, the resume experimentation, redlining practices, and Texaco. The list goes on.

No sitting around and whining. Just stating facts - this country is not a meritocracy. Those who believe otherwise are deluding themselves.
Thank you PhoenixFemme for the reasoend response. Now let's get down to business.

I don't think that racism exists becuase of what black people do or any way they act. I know it exists becuase of the way people have been taught as they were growing up. It exists because of their prejudices they were given. Prejudice = Fear. What conquers fear? Knowledge. Even better, Action. Myself, and I believe many others, have taken action ourselves and gotten to know people of different races, and you know what? There's good white people, there's good black people, there's good Germans, there's good Mexicans, there's good Venezuelans. There's ALSO bad white people, bad black people, bad Germans.. you get the idea. You know what separates the good from the "bad", no matter what their race is? Their thinking.

Yes, my ancestors came here after slavery, and yeah they (obviously) weren't lynched themselves. Some may have been, though not simply because they were Slovenian, Italian, Welsh, or German. Those ancestors (in the gold example) you speak of, got that gold somehow, correct? They had to earn it or whatever. If "B" stole from "A", then yes that's wrong. "A" can go to the government and report the stolen gold, the government doesn't listen. Eventually laws change, and if "B" tries to steal from "A" again, then the govenrment will step in and prevent it (because stealing from "A" is now illegal). "A" goes back to the government and says "but they stole my money back when it was legal but not moral, I want it back from them". The government says sorry, work it out with them, but we're not going to force them to give it to you. 2 things can now happen. "A" can lobby for years and write their congressman and protest and scream to get their money back from someone who took it immorally yet legally (not saying stealing is legal, you get the point though). OR, "A" can decide "I'm good enough" and go out and earn the gold again.

Yes I own a business. Like I said I'm 22 years old. Most people who are demanding reparations have been alive for much longer, and out of segregation laws for twice as long as I've been alive. In the past TWO years, I've built my business to be successful, and you know what? My schooling has helped me about zilch. Or even say it has, say I even started at 18 years old, that gives me 4 years to build my business if you look at it that way even. In that short amount of time, I've been able to save up some money, get the initial investment together, put in the time outside my job, get everything in order, etc.. and now it's successful. THAT is why I say that Yssys should have recovered from what was done years ago, because I seem to have been able to do it perfectly fine at my ripe old age of 22. Instead, Yssys has apparently been harboring hate and instead of making a successful business in 2 years (or even 5, whatever) he/she has been harboring that hate, refusing to go out and level the playing field by his/her actions and abilities gained over those 5 years.

And I also personally know half a dozen black business owners who've done the same thing I've done, and see and talk to them regularly. Remember what I said earlier about the difference between the "good" and the "bad" people in every race? The difference is in the thinking, and the black business owners I personally know, actually believe they can succeed and you know what? They did. I've also watched half a dozen black business owners try to do the same thing they did with a bad attitude, "I can't do this because I'm black" and you know what? They failed.

I can also testify about a gentleman named George Halsey, also a black man. He's WAY more successful than me, and his principles have helped me because he thinks right, he believes he can succeed regardless of his race, and he does.

Michael Dell, Sam Walton.. both self-made multibillionaires, Robert Kiyosaki, self-made multimillionaire. You think a black man or black woman couldn't do what they did? I KNOW they can. Michael Dell had a vision, and made it happen. Sam Walton had a dream of owning the world's largest corporation, and it happened. Robert Kiyosaki had a goal to be financially free and independent, and to share principles he used with others, and he did. (__Insert your name here___) had a vision to own the worlds largest corporation, and it happened.

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Evil can only triumph when good men do nothing.
Reply to Barwick:

Reality Check 101

Barwick: My point is this, it does not matter what race you are, it does not matter what people do to you (short of killing you personally I guess), you can be successful. Life is not fair by any means, but for those who choose it, success is available.

Here we go with the classic "work hard" resolution toward ending cultural intolerance and dominance. Barwick, do you actually think that the widening gap between the rich and wealthy in this country exist simply because people don't want to "work hard." If success had anything to do with how "hard" people worked, then whites should NOT be as collectively wealthy as they are today. Europeans, (foreignors themselves at the time) did absolutely NO WORK for those many years(except for maybe pumping your white penis' in black female slaves). So don't come in here preaching to us about the concept of work. We know all about it. Some of us can literally work ourselves to death and NEVER be as wealthy as the poorest middle class white family.

Most importantly, you seem to have a completely distorted view of what reparations is all about. Black people are not requesting reparations in order to advance economically, African Americans want Europeans to pay their outstanding debt for all the "hard work" that was done for Europeans. Do you think America became wealthy and powerful just off the pure "genuis" of European Americans? Get real. It's called brute animalistic force, exploitation, free-labor, and capitalism. You didn't get this far because you were a "civil" people with ideas of "peace" and "freedom" for all mankind. You got this far doing the complete opposite.

Whites are not smart, truth be told, your ancestors were nothing more than a bunch of social outcasts, banned from your place of origin in Europe, running around like a pack of wild beasts with no sense of what is right, devouring everying in sight, and using "gun" machinery to force other people from around to make a decent life for you, FOR FREE! Weak cowards hiding behind guns and deception.

Tell us Barwick, why didn't your ancestors borrow from your current philosophy of "working hard" to organize their own civilization without the aid of others? They received "reparations" for 500 years. Just be glad were not demanding that you pay us, WITH INTEREST!!!! And to date, whites have yet to pay for the "hard work" that was done to help them get where they are today because they are STILL in denial about how they came to reach their predominant status in America and the world (which doesn't belong to them anyway).

[This message was edited by Rowe on June 26, 2003 at 01:03 PM.]
quote:
Originally posted by Rowe:
Here's the classic "work hard" resolution toward ending cultural intolerance and dominance. Barwick, do you actually think that the widening gap between the rich and wealthy in this country exist simply because people don't want to "work hard."



Where do I use the words "work hard and you'll get ahead"? Go ahead, show me. If I did it was without realizing it, because I know working hard doesn't get you anywhere in life.

It takes hard work, working/living smart, and persistence to get ahead. Even doing that isn't going to gaurantee anyone success. It takes correct thinking, it takes right actions, it takes delayed gratification, investing in the future, and many other things, and there STILL is no guarantee of success.

The really rich get money and re-invest it into their businesses, often living POOR lives for the first decade of their businesses. Eventually the business gets so huge that they're able to have a good living, and they start to live a richer lifestyle, while still investing in their business.

The poor and middle class get their money and at best save it in the bank. Or worse they buy things they can't afford on loan from a bank (mortgages, car payments, etc).

quote:
Originally posted by Rowe:
Whites are not smart, truth be told, they are just free-loading cowards that used guns to force people to work for them, FOR FREE. Weak cowards hiding behind guns and deception. To date, whites have yet to pay for the "hard work" that was done to help them get where they are today because they are STILL in denial about how they came to reach their predominant status in America and the world (which doesn't belong to them anyway).



And now that you've exposed your true racist feelings, it was nice talking to you. Nowhere did I insult you or call you a bunch of freeloaders, cause I know that's not true. Thank you for thoroughly insulting me, I pray that your hatred dies down eventually and you can one day see me as something other than a "weak coward hiding behind guns and deception". I've offered a hand UP to many people, black and white. Some accepted it, others didn't. The ones that didn't, I feel no sorrow for. The ones that did are successful right along side me.

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Evil can only triumph when good men do nothing.
quote:
Originally posted by maverick:
Aren't people tired of the lame old saying"I'm not racist I have black friends, black people come to my house blah, blah, blah...." Some one give these assholes MLK medals or something maybe that will shut them up.


Read the last paragraph of Rowe's post (right above yours) and go call ME the racist here. You know nothing about me, and you call me a racist because I disagree with you.

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Evil can only triumph when good men do nothing.
Reply to Barwick:

"The really rich get money and re-invest it into their businesses, often living POOR lives for the first decade of their businesses. Eventually the business gets so huge that they're able to have a good living, and they start to live a richer lifestyle, while still investing in their business."-Barwick

Barwick, I have a business degree, I have taken courses in Investment Security Analysis, Finance, Statistics, Consumer Behavior, and Marketing. I read books such as Rich Dads, Poor Dads and The Millionaire Next Door. But I came to one realization: "Success" and all the money in the world means absolutely NOTHING to me if I have to live and put with existing in a global construct that teaches and reinforces to all races of people (including blacks themselves) a belief that blacks are mentally, physically and socially inferior. I can't focus on nothing else until this problem is resolved.

And as a white person, you do not have to constantly deal with the implications of feeling inferior and being "not good enough" in every avenue of your life. Don't you get it? 'Money' and 'investments' is not going to ameliorate this monumentous problem.

Like a typical European, your primary concern stays on the economic stratification of blacks, on statistics and other synthetic and superficial endeavors because this is how whites characteristically measure success, with money, property, and the accumulation of meaningless materials goods. But Barwick, not everyone wants to own and operate a business ok, not every one wants to exploit the lives of others by turning them into mindless "consumers." Not everyone wants to earn a living by being a certified executive parasite (CEP), constantly having to advertise and prey on unsuspecting members of a community.

Gain a sincere appreciation for DIFFERENCE!

That's why I am so eternally grateful that we have different peoples and cultures in the world with different outlooks on how to develop and maintain a civilization, different world-views and perspectives, and different ways of thinking and behaving. But the US and Europe is not going to turn the rest of the wholistic and organic world into its own personl industrial and technological playground! We are not going to let you ruin and pollute the natural world with all your constant industrial building, do you understand.

[This message was edited by Rowe on June 26, 2003 at 01:37 PM.]
LOL Maverick! Good answer! Geez, they can have the token black folks anyway!

Our people have made the mistake of confusing the methods with the objectives. As long as we agree on objectives, we should never fall out with each other just because we believe in different methods, or tactics, or strategy. We have to keep in mind at all times that we are not fighting for separation. We are fighting for recognition as free humans in this society
Malcolm X, 1965
quote:
Originally posted by Rowe:

Barwick, I have a business degree, I have taken courses in Investment Security Analysis, Finance, Statistics, Consumer Behavior, and Marketing. I read books such as Rich Dads, Poor Dads and The Millionaire Next Door. But I came to one realization: "Success" and all the money in the world means absolutely NOTHING to me if I have to live and put with existing in a global construct that teaches and reinforces to all races of people (including blacks themselves) a belief that blacks are mentally, physically and socially inferior. I can't focus on nothing else until this problem is resolved.



You actually believe that is what people are trying to teach? I came through the school system starting in about 1985 and ending just last year (2002) and I've got to say, I didn't get the idea that blacks or anyone is inferior.


quote:
Originally posted by Rowe:
And as a white person, you do not have to constantly deal with the implications of feeling inferior and being "not good enough" in every avenue of your life. Don't you get it? 'Money' and 'investments' is not going to ameliorate this monumentous problem.



Indian (from the Country of India) and Asian Americans seem to be doing pretty fine economically in this country. Yeah there's still idiots out there who are prejudiced towards them, and I GUARANTEE you that will never change until we all look exactly alike. And then, it'll be people with blond hair vs brown hair, and.. it's just stupid crap, you're expecting perfection out of humanity, and it'll never happen this side of Heaven.

quote:
Originally posted by Rowe:
Like a typical European, your primary concern stays on the economic stratification of blacks, on statistics and other synthetic and superficial endeavors because this is how whites characteristically measure success, with money, property, and the accumulation of meaningless materials goods. But Barwick, not everyone wants to own and operate a business ok, not every one wants to exploit the lives of others by turning them into mindless "consumers." Not everyone wants to earn a living by being a certified executive parasite (CEP), constantly having to advertise and prey on unsuspecting members of a community.

Gain a sincere appreciation for DIFFERENCE!

That's why I am so eternally grateful that we have different peoples and cultures in the world with different outlooks on how to develop and maintain a civilization, different world-views and perspectives, and different ways of thinking and behaving. But the US and Europe is not going to turn the rest of the wholistic and organic world into its own personl industrial and technological playground! We are not going to let you ruin and pollute the natural world with all your constant industrial building, do you understand.



Let's face it, not much can be done without some source of money in this country. And that isn't going to change. That's why I suggest people own their own B type businesses, that continually fund whatever they want to do.. be it missionary (not exactly a mindless corporate person) or whatever.

If you want to have your own country (I would like to have one someday, where people don't pay 60% of their money to the government), then you can do that. Find one that's close and go there, or get up the funding and buy it (land isn't just given away), or get the military and take it over.

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Evil can only triumph when good men do nothing.
It's all about survival, economics and scarcity and competition between humans (in groups) for these things. Capitalism is like a life form in and of itself, kind of the ecosystem and food chain. The elites are at the top of the food chain of capitalism and they prey off lower level humans for their survival. Race and racism is ultimately about economics as well, with whites collectively representing the top of the racial food chain, which has survived and thrived of the exploitation of the people, resources and energies of other humans.

When Europeans were isolated in Europe the elites preyed upon the masses for the survival of their wealth. The resultant was that the average European, prior to European exploration, lived a life of poverty and squalor while the aristocracies and monarchies live a lavish life. The European exploration expanded the prey for European elites. That is when Race and racism and the doctrine of white supremacy began to flourish. Consequently, Africans and Africa, Native Americans and the Americas, became absorbed as nutrients to feed the growth of capitalism and white civilization.

The reality is that it is not about left or right....it is about ECONOMICS and the allocation of scarce and productive resources in a world of over 6 billion people. The fallacy promoted by capitalism is that wealth is infinite and the only barrier to wealth is work effort and intellect. But this is not true. The laws of supply and demand and the principle of scarcity govern wealth and opportunity. Thus, scarcity is really a pillar assumption of economic theory and as such implies that economics is much closer to being a ZERO SUM reality, than the INFINITE wealth theory. Thus, the sad reality globally that people do not want to tell is that for one people to gain, means that other will have to lose. Not necessarily a proportional loss, but everyone cannot be rich and wealthy simultaneously and all honest intelligent people realize this. Not wealthy as defined by how Americans are living.

Truth is always fraught with impediments. Truth agreed with is a blessed duet. Truth confronting beloved vice will sever relationships, perpetrate flight, and uncover murderous rage. - Alexander Solzhenitsyn


("`-''-/").___..--''"`-._
`6_ 6 ) `-. ( ).`-.__.`)
(_Y_.)' ._ ) `._ `. ``-..-'
_..`--'_..-_/ /--'_.' ,'
(((' (((-((('' ((((
Noah The African in America
"The sad reality globally that people do not want to tell is that for one people to gain, means that other will have to lose.-Noah The African

There is nothing 'global' or 'universal' about forming a society that thrives off of exploitation. This behavior is uniquely European and Western in nature. In fact, before anyone has ever heard of a European or 'white person,' indigenous people successfully maintained civilizations that were not harmful to the environment, not responsibile for producing psychopathic crime and violence, sexual diseases, and psychological (depression) disorders. People didn't have to kill each other to get ahead. People didn't work themselves in depression and family isolation, etc.

African Americans make the mistake in claiming any responsibility for producing the human and environmentally abusive society whites have constructed for themselves and anyone that resides here. And this, they call "advancement" and "progress."

You know Barwick, this would be a good time to exit this discussion because its about to get real serious in here. And I am not about to hold back or restrict my perspective about European culture because a white person is present. So if you don't want to be offended, then I would leave at this point.
quote:
You actually believe that is what people are trying to teach? I came through the school system starting in about 1985 and ending just last year (2002) and I've got to say, I didn't get the idea that blacks or anyone is inferior.


Just as I thought, a kid.

Our people have made the mistake of confusing the methods with the objectives. As long as we agree on objectives, we should never fall out with each other just because we believe in different methods, or tactics, or strategy. We have to keep in mind at all times that we are not fighting for separation. We are fighting for recognition as free humans in this society
Malcolm X, 1965
True dat Rowe, but I believe that the POWER and imperialism of the West has and is spreading this behavior as billions of people around the world have or are being converted to believe that emulation of the West is their hope and salvation. The west then forces these conversions on the poor nations based upon "pre conditions" for aid and loans via the IMF and World Bank or direct loan and aid from nations like the US.

Truth is always fraught with impediments. Truth agreed with is a blessed duet. Truth confronting beloved vice will sever relationships, perpetrate flight, and uncover murderous rage. - Alexander Solzhenitsyn


("`-''-/").___..--''"`-._
`6_ 6 ) `-. ( ).`-.__.`)
(_Y_.)' ._ ) `._ `. ``-..-'
_..`--'_..-_/ /--'_.' ,'
(((' (((-((('' ((((
Noah The African in America
Precisely Noah. I also wanted to tell Barwick, that is, if he is still reading, that white superioric thinking and/or cultural egocentrism is obviously not apart of the school's curriculum. On the contrary, it is a product of social conditioning. White youth watch, observe, and listen very attentively to how their parents talk and interact with blacks extrovertly and introvertly. They watch closely to how their white parents refer to blacks after watching the news, reading the paper, or viewing a entertainment program. They adopt and incorporate into their thinking and belief systems, the same cultural bad habits that you picked up from your parents.

And this is how it happens:

White children are socialized to believe that their "whitness" automatically qualifies them as a worthy and invincible human being. But because they must live up to this warped concept of themselves, they acculturate perfectionist and anal-retentive thinking and nervous behaviors. Being a disappointment to the family and becoming a failure, then becomes a haunting and debilitating obessive fear. Therefore, everything they set their minds to doing must be immaculately done, leaving no room for mistakes or imperfections. One of the disadvantages of this socialization however, is that white youth have the highest number of suicide deaths, eating disorders (i.e., anorexia, bulimia nervosa) self-mutilation, self-inflicting pain, violent tantrums, and other indications of psychopathological distress. What's amazing is that black youth do not experience nearly as much psychoogical distress as white youth even though the average black teen experiences significantly more social trauma and societal-ills than the average white teen. Perhaps, blacks are more resilient.

Another disadvantage is that white youth still clutching to these ideas of perfectionism and intellectual superiority compared with other races grow up to be narcissistic adults that experience trouble interacting with people that are not white and did not have comparable upbringing. In their warped minds, people not socialized to think and behave neurotically in this way are then perceived to be "lazy" and "unintelligent, and "unmotivated" compared to "us" whites.

And sadly, not knowing that collectively Europeans are suffering from a polarized impression of themselves, blacks blindly adopt the same negative thoughts of themselves that whites have gradually developed. Blacks need only to remind themselves however that we're not the problem. It is they, who has the problem relating to us. It is they that need to seek out cultural counselling and therapy to help them 'return back to earth' sort of speak in terms of they view themselves in relation to people of color. In fact, I am trying to set up a branch of psychology that will specifically help whites suffering from cultural narcissism and inflated egos.

[This message was edited by Rowe on June 26, 2003 at 09:18 PM.]
quote:
Originally posted by Rowe:
You know Barwick, this would be a good time to exit this discussion because its about to get real serious in here. And I am not about to hold back or restrict my perspective about European culture because a white person is present. So if you don't want to be offended, then I would leave at this point.


Bring it on, I'm back from the weekend, and unlike many of the panty-wastes in this country, I don't go whining to mommy and daddy government and ask the ACLU to step in every time I get offended.

quote:
Originally posted by Noah The African:
Thus, scarcity is really a pillar assumption of economic theory and as such implies that economics is much closer to being a ZERO SUM reality, than the INFINITE wealth theory.


Yeah, of course.. there has been NO wealth created since the middle ages. We're still at the exact same level Roll Eyes

Zero Sum reality you say? Say I grow some spice in quantity, and some guy three states over grows something else. I'm developing some medicine but I don't have the necessary ingredients, but my buddy three states over has them. He's a chef, and cooks with this spice that I grow, so we work out a deal and we're both happy. A new food dish was created, and a new medicine was created. Who got exploited there?

Oh, how about a real world example: let's look at South Korea, Taiwan, Singapore, and Hong Kong. They were ALL not doing too well not too long ago, basically third world. Then something changed. The United States started "exploiting" them and stealing all their wealth. And now... Dude give me a break, if you honestly believe that in order for someone to get rich, someone else has to lose, then you've got a sick and sad view of reality.

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Evil can only triumph when good men do nothing.
quote:
Originally posted by Rowe:
...white superioric thinking and/or cultural egocentrism...
...White youth...white parents...
...White children are socialized to believe that their "whitness" automatically qualifies them as a worthy and invincible human being...white youth have the highest number of suicide deaths, eating disorders (i.e., anorexia, bulimia nervosa) self-mutilation, self-inflicting pain, violent tantrums, and other indications of psychopathological distress...What's amazing is that black youth do not experience nearly as much psychoogical distress as white youth even though the average black teen experiences significantly more social trauma and societal-ills than the average white teen. Perhaps, blacks are more resilient.




Way to generalize people. So basically what you're saying is that it's ok for you to generalize white people, but not ok for whites to generalize blacks like you just did to whites.

You know what? You want to know why people succeed in this world, white, black, green, and purple? Because they THINK they can. Instead of encouraging your fellow black friends, you gather around in a circle and whine and moan about how the white man is keeping you down.

I've ALREADY given you a ton of examples of black men and women who came from the same circumstances as those who you're talking about who are being "kept down by the white man", but changed their thinking, believed they could succeed, and what do you know, they succeeded.

I don't understand you Noah, Rowe, and Yssys.. one second you say that you're being kept down from succeeding in this country, then when I show people who discredit what you say, then you say "but succeeding like 'white people' isn't the way we want to succeed". LISTEN!!! Succeeding like the "white man" (and consequently, successful Asians, Indians, Hispanics, Native Americans, Russians, Germans, Italians, and African Americans) IS THE CULTURE OF SUCCESS IN THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA. That is the way "success" is defined. Success in America isn't defined the way ANY other ethnic group thinks is success. It isn't defined the way the green party thinks success is, it isn't defined the way the communist party thinks success is (although the green party, communist party, and liberal party all share pretty common views of success). Success is ALREADY defined to be a certain way, and that is the way the people of this nation want to succeed. There is nothing keeping you from buying some land way out in B.F.E. in some random state and living however you want. If you want to live in a certain way, there's a LOT of land available in this country, you can go out and live in whatever sort of culture you want with whoever you want.

If you want your own land with its government, then go buy yourself an island from some Central American country and declare your independence. It might get bloody, it happened here in the states, but DON'T YOU DARE try to steal what the founding fathers of this country fought for just because you think that our definition of success is wrong. I'm sorry I'm white, poor me, because I happen to be white and define success in a certain way, I'm a horrible horrible person. Shove it.

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Evil can only triumph when good men do nothing.
Reply to Barwick:

Barwick: If you want your own land with its government, then go buy yourself an island from some Central American country and declare your independence. It might get bloody, it happened here in the states, but DON'T YOU DARE try to steal what the founding fathers of this country fought for just because you think that our definition of success is wrong. I'm sorry I'm white, poor me, because I happen to be white and define success in a certain way, I'm a horrible horrible person. Shove it.

Rowe: First, I appreciate your fervor and passionate response. However, why the altruistic interest in African-Americans? What is it your business whether or not blacks succeed or fail? Also, let me explain something to you, a 'fight' consist of two or more parties voluntarily participating in a physical struggle. History shows us that ostracized whites (a rather young people compared to ancient Africans, the oldest people on the planet) emerging out of Europe looking for a place to settle did not fight for American Native land. They violently conviscated this land from a group of people that had no interest in fighting or relinquishing their land. Yet you aggressively warn me that I had better not "dare" steal land that was once stolen from America's original inhabitants? Explain that logic to me.

American soil does not belong to Europeans, never belonged to Europeans and never will, so what's stopping me, American Natives, or any other group from occupying this land? European-Americans were once a growing population of immigrants themselves with absolutely no right or authority to govern and restrict people that wish to reside here. As a matter of fact, there are more people of color on this planet than there are whites in America. So why should we (the majority) limit our residency to South America? And if it weren't for the incisive racial tension that only whites have created and perpetuated, this would be an alright country, world even, for everybody to live in!

And as far as generalizations are concerned, I think its only fair to turn the tables and make Europeans an object of psychological study since Europeans and European-Americans have been studying indigenous groups anthropologically for years. We're tired of being your human lab-rats, so now its your turn to be the objects of study!

Finally, if you don't like the nature of our conversations here in this forum, then you are free to turn in your membership and leave. Black people should not and absolutely will not withhold their perspectives on an African American discussion board just to pacify you. Good-bye. There's the virtual door. Use it.

[This message was edited by Rowe on June 30, 2003 at 03:38 PM.]
Yeah the land was forcefully taken over. That's what happened for the six thousand years this planet has been in existence. If you can't defend your land, you could lose it, unless someone wants to be benevolent and leave you alone. I'm not saying you're trying to steal land, I could care less if you tried. I'm saying don't try to change the ideals that this country was founded on (from free enterprise, into the socialist everybody's equal regardless of what they put in ideals).

Whites invented racism? Last I checked, the Israelies and Palestinians have been fighting for a few millenia.

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Evil can only triumph when good men do nothing.
quote:
Originally posted by Barwick:

I'm saying don't try to change the ideals that this country was founded on (from free enterprise, into the socialist everybody's equal regardless of what they put in ideals).



Two points:

1) Perhaps we don't need to change the ideals the country was founded upon - just finally realize them (e.g. check out my signature below).

2) Equality does not mean that everyone is marginalized. It means that everyone has an equal opportunity in life. From there, one's abilities, resources, and tenacity take over.



Now is the time to make real the promises of Democracy.
quote:
Originally posted by Barwick:
Yeah the land was forcefully taken over. That's what happened for the six thousand years this planet has been in existence. If you can't defend your land, you could lose it, unless someone wants to be benevolent and leave you alone. I'm not saying you're trying to steal land, I could care less if you tried. I'm saying don't try to change the ideals that this country was founded on (from free enterprise, into the socialist everybody's equal regardless of what they put in ideals).

Whites invented racism? Last I checked, the Israelies and Palestinians have been fighting for a few millenia.


6000 years???

"La vida te da sorpresas...
Sorpresas te da la vida...",
¡Ay, Dios!

Rubén Blades---Pedro Navaja


Plowshares Actions
The Nuclear Resister
School of the Americas Watch


quote:
the Israelies and Palestinians have been fighting for a few millenia.
Hey???

Aren't they both Semites?? Isn't that more of a tribal rather than racial feud??

Well... maybe you're right since the Jews now-a-days are as European as most WASP Americans...
NOW! I see your point!

Whites vs. Arabs! Big Grin

Judaism is a RELIGION not an ethnicity!
...And no one can verify that the European Jews who run Israel now are the direct blood descendants several thousand years and a land-locked continent away from the "original Tribes"... Jews/Arab-Muslims religiously and perhaps ethnically from a Biblical perspective can trace a common ancestory by name... unlike perhaps most of the rest of us in the human family!
quote:
Originally posted by ricardomath:

_6000 years???_




Yeah, ever read the Bible? There's a lot of scientific evidence that points to instant creation of the earth nearly as it exists today. Let's not get into that in this thread, it'll go on forever.

quote:
Originally posted by MBM:
Two points:

1) Perhaps we don't need to change the ideals the country was founded upon - just finally realize them (e.g. check out my signature below).

Now is the time to make real the promises of Democracy.



Are you suggesting that this country was founded to be a Democracy and not a Republic?

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Evil can only triumph when good men do nothing.
quote:
Originally posted by Barwick:

Are you suggesting that this country was founded to be a Democracy and not a Republic?



Republican is an adjective that modifies the noun Democracy. Ours is a Republican, or representative, Democracy. Hence you can characterize our country as a Republic. Roll Eyes

Back to the point . . . .



Now is the time to make real the promises of Democracy.
quote:
Originally posted by MBM:
quote:
Originally posted by Barwick:

Are you suggesting that this country was founded to be a Democracy and not a Republic?



Republican is an adjective that modifies the noun Democracy. Ours is a Republican, or representative, Democracy. Hence you can characterize our country as a Republic. Roll Eyes

Back to the point . . . .



Now is the time to make real the promises of Democracy.


Read the Declaration of Independence, Bill of Rights, and the rest of the Constitution. Nowhere in there will you hear the founding fathers refer to this country as a Democracy.

Democracy is this.. 10 Cannibals on an island. 8 vote to eat Joe for lunch, 2 vote against it. Joe becomes lunch.

We live in a Democratically elected Constitutional Republic. If this were a Democracy, as you say, then the majority (white people) who are all supposedly racist bastards would vote to get rid of everyone who isn't white, and it would become law.

---------------------------------------
Evil can only triumph when good men do nothing.
quote:
Originally posted by Barwick:
I'm going to steal some words from a speech I heard by Clarence Mason Weaver (a graduate of UC Berkeley, veteran of Vietnam, and former black panther). All the words aren't exaBill Gatesct, but you get the idea.

quote:
_Clarence Mason Weaver:_ See, we as black people need to look at some aspects of our culture and say "That's gooood.. we should keep that" and other stuff and say "That's stupid". We should look at other cultures and look at what they do and incorporate some of that also.

I have plenty of Italian friends who are proud to be Italian and proud of their heritage, and I don't ever see them running around on Roman day wearing togas or anything.

I've got plenty of German friends, proud of their heritage, and I don't ever see them running about on Viking day wearing helmets with horns and all.

So why do we (blacks) have to have a whole month... the darkest, coldest, dreariest, sorriest month of the year...? You see.. that's stupid.

You see folks, people want to divide us into two groups, blacks vs hispanics, whites vs blacks, etc.. and they want to get us to fight against eachother.

The Romans, they called it "Divide and Conquer". In the South they called it "Separate but Equal". Today they call it "Multiculturalism". Same game, different name.


Guys, there's a Civil war going on in this country. Left vs Right. It's not as bloody as the first Civil War, but it's just as intense. There have become two distinctly separate groups of people in this country fighting against eachother.

I come on this board and see some debate, a lot of hatred, and much entitlement thinking.

The reason 97% of rich people are rich isn't because they were priveledged. 3% of the wealthy in this nation inherited their money. 97% of the wealthy started as an employee and/or started to work for themselves as self-employed. Michael Dell (white), Sam Walton (white), C. Mason Weaver (African American), Ray Kroc (white), Bill Gates (white), Robert Kiyosaki (Japanese-American), Juan Ortiz (Immigrated from Mexico), George Halsey (African American), etc.. etc... etc.. ALL of these people came from "average" (or in the case of some of them, such as Juan Ortiz who lived in horrible poverty for his whole upbringing and is now a highly successful business owner and successful public speaker), and they all are now highly successful.

They aren't successful because they were lucky, or everything worked out that way, or it just happened, nor did someone hand it to them in reparations. Every single one of them has stories of difficult times, horrible tragedies, people discriminating against them for one reason or another, failing parts (or whole) of their businesses, some living homeless at times, and other hardships. BUT they became successful. I know how and why they became successful, and I know that anyone can do what they did in their own way, and become successful on their own.

My point is this, it does not matter what race you are, it does not matter what people do to you (short of killing you personally I guess), you can be successful. Life is not fair by any means, but for those who choose it, success is available.

Evil can only triumph when good men do nothing.



Family and Early Childhood
On October 28, 1955, shortly after 9:00 p.m., William Henry Gates III was born. He was born into a family with a rich history in business, politics, and community service. His great-grandfather had been a state legislator and mayor, his grandfather was the vice president of a national bank, and his father was a prominent lawyer. [Wallace, 1992, p. 8-9] Early on in life, it was apparent that Bill Gates inherited the ambition, intelligence, and competitive spirit that had helped his progenitors rise to the top in their chosen professions. In elementary school he quickly surpassed all of his peer's abilities in nearly all subjects, especially math and science. His parents recognized his intelligence and decided to enroll him in Lakeside, a private school known for its intense academic environment. This decision had far reaching effects on Bill Gates's life. For at Lakeside, Bill Gates was first introduced to computers
http://ei.cs.vt.edu/~history/Gates.Mirick.html

In order to improve the mind, we ought less to learn, than to contemplate.
-Rene Descartes
Juan Ortiz - Born to a two mexican immigrants. His dad worked minimum wage jobs and his mother, unable to speak english, worked odd jobs to help the family get by. His dad began using drugs and eventually began selling them, nearly causing the death of his family when the head drug dealer wanted to collect money for the drugs he had been stealing and using, was comning to Juan's house to kill him and his family, leaving Juan's dad to live so he could pay back the money he owed him. Juan and his family moved out of state, and lived in an abandoned house for three years. Due to his circumstances thorughout his youth and adult life, Juan contemplated suicide multiple times, but didn't because of love for his mother. He went on to finish high school and attend college where he met his wife, and started his own successful business and now speaks across the world. He himself will go on record as saying "I succeeded because I got around people who encouraged me, who told me (without any fact to back it up) that I could be something, that I could be successful, and now today I speak around the world, giving that hope to others."

Clarence Mason Weaver - Born into a black family (that means he's a black man), enlisted in the United States Navy and served in Vietnam. He was purposely crushed under 2800 lbs of steel and iron plates, dropped on him by a white racist shipmate whom he regularly debated with. He was discharged from the Navy, actively involved in the black panthers, and eventually went on to become the first in his family to go to college, and enrolled in Merritt College in Oakland, CA and U.C. Berkeley, earning a degree from each. He went on to become a Federal Contract Specialist, negotiating multimillion dollar deals with TRW, General Dynamics, and General Electric. In 1980 he resigned that position to become an entrepreneur, eventually hosted his own call-in radio show, and is an active speaker across the nation. A black, disabled veteran, Clarence Mason Weaver in his own words, "Through practicing forgiveness, I cannot even remember the face of the racist shipmate who tried to kill me. Before I swore I would kill him and go to jail if I ever saw him again, today I would hug him and tell him I forgive him".

Get the idea?

---------------------------------------
Evil can only triumph when good men do nothing.
Barwick, would you be so quick to forgive if the shoe was on the other foot? Could you even tolerate some of the things that African-americans have gone through?
You have concretely proven Noah's Law #5 which reads:
5. Call to move on. This is an attempt to get blacks to stop focusing on the history of how or problems came about;which just happens to caste aspersion upon white society. What this call ignores is that it is not the HISTORY of race that keeps the race issue alive with blacks. Rather, it is the social and economic deprivation of blacks today relative to whites today, that are the direct and indirect effects of past racially prejudice and discrimination, that keeps the topic of race from being moved passed.
Chew on that for a minute.

Our people have made the mistake of confusing the methods with the objectives. As long as we agree on objectives, we should never fall out with each other just because we believe in different methods, or tactics, or strategy. We have to keep in mind at all times that we are not fighting for separation. We are fighting for recognition as free humans in this society
Malcolm X, 1965
Well... damn!

I missed the part where BARWICK "The Intelligent" said this PLANET has been in existence only 6000 years...

When a person is that dumb... WHY ARE WE BOTHERING TO SPEAK TO HIM???
quote:
The 160,000-year-old fossils, the oldest ever Homo sapiens and excavated in a remote region of Ethiopia, appear to prove that the [AFRICAN]continent was the cradle of humanity, the scientists said.

<< 6000 years??? KNOW THE TRUTH.COM Smile >> Smile
quote:
Originally posted by Yssys:
Barwick, would you be so _quick_ to forgive if the shoe was on the other foot? Could you even tolerate some of the things that African-americans have gone through?
You have concretely proven Noah's Law #5 which reads:
5. Call to move on. This is an attempt to get blacks to stop focusing on the history of how or problems came about;which just happens to caste aspersion upon white society. What this call ignores is that it is not the HISTORY of race that keeps the race issue alive with blacks. Rather, it is the social and economic deprivation of blacks today relative to whites today, that are the direct and indirect effects of past racially prejudice and discrimination, that keeps the topic of race from being moved passed.
Chew on that for a minute.



Do descendants of American Revolutionaries demand reparations from England for their oppression? No, they're not going "I'm entitled to this", "You got rich off our backs in the colonies and slaughtered our people", they're... moving on.

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Evil can only triumph when good men do nothing.

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