quote:
Is rap tomorrow's jazz?

Aleading African- American newspaper published a series of articles assailing black musicians for holding back the race. The music "is killing some people," the paper claimed. "Some are going insane; others are losing their religion." The artists under attack were not rappers such as 50 Cent or Ludacris but Fats Waller, Louis Armstrong and Duke Ellington. "The young girls and boys who constantly take jazz every day and night are absolutely becoming bad, and some criminals," the (New York) Amsterdam News wrote in 1925.

There is a long but little-known history of African-American leaders denouncing black popular music as self-destructive and an impediment to integration, a history that continues in the current campaign against rap. This is unfortunate because rap, like older forms of black popular music now considered to be "America's classical music," is distinctive and important because it differs from the norms of "respectable" culture.

Last month, when Lil' Kim was sentenced to prison for lying to a grand jury about a shooting, her raps were also indicted as an obstacle to black progress. "Her music is laced with lyrics that glorify promiscuous sex and gratuitous violence," wrote DeWayne Wickham, a nationally syndicated columnist and former president of the National Association of Black Journalists. "She is a Pied Piper of the worst kind -- a diva of smut."

The criticisms of Lil' Kim were launched amid an anti-rap movement that began in March, soon after shots were fired by the rival entourages of 50 Cent and the Game outside a New York radio station. Al Sharpton demanded that the Federal Communications Commission ban violent rappers from radio and television, and he launched a boycott against Universal Music Group, which he accused of "peddling racist and misogynistic black stereotypes" through rap music. Sharpton expressed special concern about white perceptions of African-Americans. Rappers and their corporate supporters "make it easy for black culture to be dismissed by the majority," he said...

...In the 1920s, several civil-rights leaders [W.E.B. DuBois and A. Philip Randdolph]
were.... concerned about the sexual and violent content of popular blues and jazz songs...

...In the 1950s, Martin Luther King Jr. told African-Americans to shun the new music [rock 'n' roll and R&B] , which, he said, "plunges men's minds into degrading and immoral depths."

...This history suggests that the cause of integration has always been at odds with what is now widely hailed as America's most important contribution to world culture. Many scholars argue that the creators of jazz, blues, rock and R&B were great because of their willingness and ability to work outside European cultural forms and to speak about elements of the human condition that white artists would not, such as sex and violence.

Those who attack the latest form of black popular music for the sake of racial unity and "respectability" might stop to consider which side, in the history that will be written of this time, they wish to be on.

http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/opinion/orl-rap17_1...rl-opinion-headlines
I'm beginning to think Michael Eric Dyson was RIGHT!! Wink

I do wonder, nevertheless, if Al voiced one of the primary motivators of this Generational Outrage. Hmmm....
Dyson said and showed how it was historical, as the article alluded to...
Original Post
This is part of the 'keep your head down' don't make Mr. Charlie mad' behavior.

I don't like the sentiments often advanced by 'rap'. But, without a doubt it is reflective of what is going in the lives of a significant portion of American society.

Who better to record it??

Just as W.E.B. DuBois and A. Philip Randolph were not successful of suppressing jazz, A. Sharpton will not be successful in suppressing rap.

Def Poetry (Jazz Poetry) has been around for more than 50 years. It too is reflective of the lives of the people who write it.

It too is valid art forms.

Generational??

I think yes. It does seem to be an older generation critiquing a younger.

I still think it is a 'heads down' thing.

No one is offering anything other criticism.

PEACE

Jim Chester
The question I have, of course, is this:

Could there conceivably be such a thing as music that leads its listeners down the path of degradation?

If there is, then if that kind of music ever comes out and becomes popular, then if we disregard criticisms of it on the grounds that, "Well, they said the same thing about jazz," then we are making a mistake, no? Before digital clocks became the norm, there was a saying that even a broken clock is right twice a day. I say that glorifying actually harmful behavior is different from singing about things that really don't hurt anybody. When the music crosses that line, I say the criticisms become valid.

Ih hip-hop was all about voting Republican, loving Bill Cosby, licking Rush Limbaugh's boots, and tapdancing for white conservatives, I think u'd be seeing a different reaction from the people poo-pooing the current criticisms. They would probably see my point about the broken clocks...
Before digital clocks became the norm, there was a saying that even a broken clock is right twice a day.---Vox

Malfunctioning digital clocks are right as often a analog clocks.

I agree with you about what I think you were saying, but this sentence left unsure.

'I say that glorifying actually harmful behavior is different from singing about things that really don't hurt anybody.'---Vox

Please expand.

Mr. Chester... most of my digital clocks, when broken, don't show a time at all. I guess I need to stop buyin' them cheap ones from Sears...

The sentence u asked about just means that I think there's a difference between singing double entendres with sexual overtones and singing about how cool it is to sell crack and kill "niggas." Generational criticisms about music have always existed, but I think there has to be a point where a song comes along that is qualitatively negative and self-destructive. Also, generational is one aspect, but I know that I, personally, was criticizing NWA's messages back when I was 21.
quote:
Originally posted by Vox:
Mr. Chester... most of my digital clocks, when broken, don't show a time at all. I guess I need to stop buyin' them cheap ones from Sears...

The sentence u asked about just means that I think there's a difference between singing double entendres with sexual overtones and singing about how cool it is to sell crack and kill "niggas." Generational criticisms about music have always existed, but I think there has to be a point where a song comes along that is qualitatively negative and self-destructive. Also, generational is one aspect, but I know that I, personally, was criticizing NWA's messages back when I was 21.


Maybe.

My broken digital clock shows 12 o'clock all the time.


It also occurred to me that much of the criticism of music at any time is intragenerational.

I took a stint trying to write music, and lyrics. I came to learn that much of the lyrics are pure fiction without any foundation in fact at all.

It is often, and certainly not always, a flightful fantasy contained entirely in the imagination of the writer.

In the instance of 'Rap', it is an artform without a doubt.

I think the 'rub' will come when the decision has to be made as to whether it is a distinct (music) artform.

If so, how do you write it.

I know that does not keep it from being music, but it will be a problem.


PEACE

Jim Chester
quote:
Could there conceivably be such a thing as music that leads its listeners down the path of degradation?

If there is, then if that kind of music ever comes out and becomes popular, then if we disregard criticisms of it on the grounds that, "Well, they said the same thing about jazz," then we are making a mistake, no? Before digital clocks became the norm, there was a saying that even a broken clock is right twice a day. I say that glorifying actually harmful behavior is different from singing about things that really don't hurt anybody. When the music crosses that line, I say the criticisms become valid.
By the same token, people can discern a difference between constructive criticism and mere reflexive, generational kinds...

I don't quarrel with your point, nor to I degrade the value of criticism but there is reason enough to make a distinction as well as call out those who are just harping for the sake of it.

I found it interesting the note about how Dubois and Randolph founded their own record company of sorts. For as long as Hip Hop has been around I have never heard of one elder/organization seeking to do anything similar to either engage or combat the negatives in Hip Hop. So we can talk about mistakes all day long on a number of levels if you want.

The criticizers like Cosby and Al, those with some type of influence (or at least such aspirations or posings) have no excuse, IMO.
quote:
The artists under attack were not rappers such as 50 Cent or Ludacris but Fats Waller, Louis Armstrong and Duke Ellington


NMAGINATE:

I will resist attacking YOU and make use of ACTUAL LYRICS TO SHOW YOU THAT while the "haters" on Jazz were using their JUDGMENT to condemn that music, THE IMPLICT CONTENT of the music of today make a world of difference.

Jazz was attacked by White Racists who did not want to see integration of the races.

The Motown Sound was similarly criticized by WITH RESPECT TO TODAY these songs told of LOVE BETWEEN MAN AND WOMAN!!!!

The MUSIC TODAY in large part has DISPENSED OF ALL OF THE RESPECT FROM THE PAST. It is UNFILTERED IGNORANCE!!!!!!!!!!!!! The harm and need for repudiation is IMPLICIT in the lyrics and not left up to interpretation.

Please note that hatred and attacks on Black women:

Exhibit #1:
(Please note - a web filter has edited the bad words and replaced them with what you see below. )

The SoundTrack to "Hustle & Flow"

quote:
Artist: Webbie Lyrics
Song: Bad pregnant dog Remix Lyrics
(Feat. Trina)




[Verse 1]
The girl be cooking and cleaning and cleaning and cooking
She be constantly douching and cleaning her girl thingy
And when she step on the scene everybody be looking
And to get in them jeans everybody be wishing
But she only want players who far from rookie
And if you ain't got the cake
Can't play with the nookie
Her titties sitting pretty and she soft as a cushion
If you try to holla she might holla she tooken
And she walk like a bad pregnant dog talk like a bad pregnant dog
And go and get her hair and s**t fixed is a habit
Now bad pregnant dog go and buy fish more than average
And bad pregnant doges get to take trips with the savage
Can never tell a bad pregnant dog a freak she too classy
But s**t I can tell from her lips that she nasty
Expensive ass pant-ses grip to them asses
She mean as a pitbull sweet like cabbage

[Chorus]
Now that's a bad pregnant dog (a bad pregnant dog)
Now that's a bad pregnant dog (a bad pregnant dog)
Now that's a bad pregnant dog (a bad pregnant dog)
Now that's a bad pregnant dog (a bad pregnant dog)
Girl you a bad pregnant dog (a bad pregnant dog)
Girl you a bad pregnant dog (a bad pregnant dog)
Girl you a bad pregnant dog (a bad pregnant dog)
Girl you a bad pregnant dog (a bad pregnant dog)

[Verse 2]
Now see I can impress a bad pregnant dog the girl gon smile
Caress the bad pregnant dog now the girl gon wild
I'll feed it and treat it like that's my child
Then freak it up and beat it up and that's my style
You get alot of head when your bread in piles
Cuz I'm on right now and I'm saying that loud
A trifling ass pregnant dog make the big dog growl
A bad ass pregnant dog make the big dog proud
Which one is the baddest
That's the one I'm having
The with no kids or just one baby daddy
And she ain't hard-headed
Can listen and respect it
And you ain't a bad pregnant dog if you got bad credit
A thong and press-ons and know how to cook neckbones
I want the MVP with that throwback dress on
Don't like to get dirty and don't mind working
And she don't mind giving me some mouth and lip service

[Chorus]
Now that's a bad pregnant dog (a bad pregnant dog)
Now that's a bad pregnant dog (a bad pregnant dog)
Now that's a bad pregnant dog (a bad pregnant dog)
Now that's a bad pregnant dog (a bad pregnant dog)
Girl you a bad pregnant dog (a bad pregnant dog)
Girl you a bad pregnant dog (a bad pregnant dog)
Girl you a bad pregnant dog (a bad pregnant dog)
Girl you a bad pregnant dog (a bad pregnant dog)

Now make yourself seen
Cuz you a bad pregnant dog
Girl you a bad pregnant dog
Yeah you a bad pregnant dog

Now show your ass off
Cuz you a bad pregnant dog
Girl you a bad pregnant dog
Yeah you a bad pregnant dog

[Verse 3]
Man I love them bad pregnant doges with them sexy ass tattoos
Them bad pregnant doges with them bad pregnant doges attitudes
She a damn a fool got a crib she'll let me camp
Make sure her n***a stay filled with them foodstamps
I-N-D-E-P-E-N-D-E-N-T do you know what that mean man
Own damn house flossed out big screen man
I bring the whole hundred s**t what you gon do for me man
Look at her own income she a beast man
Bad pregnant doges holla business first then streets man
She ain't crying over no n***a she ain't weak man
The kinda pregnant dog that put a real n***a on his feet man

[Chorus - Repeat 2X]
Now that's a bad pregnant dog (a bad pregnant dog)
Now that's a bad pregnant dog (a bad pregnant dog)
Now that's a bad pregnant dog (a bad pregnant dog)
Now that's a bad pregnant dog (a bad pregnant dog)
Girl you a bad pregnant dog (a bad pregnant dog)
Girl you a bad pregnant dog (a bad pregnant dog)
Girl you a bad pregnant dog (a bad pregnant dog)
Girl you a bad pregnant dog (a bad pregnant dog)

Come here fa sho
Trill Entertainment n***a
I'm Webbie n***a
My name ain't Weebie ya heard me
Get it right
Mouse on the track
2004 this my year right chea
I'm out this pregnant dog
I need a bad pregnant dog
That's a bad pregnant dog
Well, I didn't include this part from the article, didn't think I had to:
"Likewise, Randolph's Brotherhood of Sleeping Car Porters, which produced a great portion of the civil rights leadership, condemned Rock and R&B for their overt sexuality and their "degrading portrayal of Negro Womanhood."

C-FEED... You are not the only one who is aware of the content in some, a lot of rap music. Please spare me with this little bit of personal outrage. And, if anything, it would seem that the amount of outright violence and death that's associated with Hip Hop (though none of the other genres were completely absent of such things, it seems) would be by far the most alarming and the most notable distinction.

Me, I'm not thinking that every preacher that speaks out against fornication and adultery are like actual saints themselves. Nor am I thinking some of them are doing anything more than speaking from popular rote or saying things just to please. There is something else to the phenomenon other than people being genuinely concerned or appauled. And people can be concerned or appauled for different reasons. No doubt with some, as noted by Sharpton's remarks, there is a questionable element that drives this "concern".

I will resist attacking YOU and make use of the actual lyrics...

And you can save that BS too!
Again, you are by far not the only person aware of the disturbing content in rap music. Now, tell me?
What kind of "preacher" or church member are you?
quote:
Originally posted by Constructive Feedback:
quote:
The artists under attack were not rappers such as 50 Cent or Ludacris but Fats Waller, Louis Armstrong and Duke Ellington


NMAGINATE:

I will resist attacking YOU and make use of ACTUAL LYRICS TO SHOW YOU THAT while the "haters" on Jazz were using their JUDGMENT to condemn that music, THE IMPLICT CONTENT of the music of today make a world of difference.

Jazz was attacked by White Racists who did not want to see integration of the races.

The Motown Sound was similarly criticized by WITH RESPECT TO TODAY these songs told of LOVE BETWEEN MAN AND WOMAN!!!!

The MUSIC TODAY in large part has DISPENSED OF ALL OF THE RESPECT FROM THE PAST. It is UNFILTERED IGNORANCE!!!!!!!!!!!!! The harm and need for repudiation is IMPLICIT in the lyrics and not left up to interpretation.

Please note that hatred and attacks on Black women:

Exhibit #1:
(Please note - a web filter has edited the bad words and replaced them with what you see below. )

The SoundTrack to "Hustle & Flow"

quote:
Artist: Webbie Lyrics
Song: Bad pregnant dog Remix Lyrics
(Feat. Trina)




[Verse 1]
The girl be cooking and cleaning and cleaning and cooking
She be constantly douching and cleaning her girl thingy
And when she step on the scene everybody be looking
And to get in them jeans everybody be wishing
But she only want players who far from rookie
And if you ain't got the cake
Can't play with the nookie
Her titties sitting pretty and she soft as a cushion
If you try to holla she might holla she tooken
And she walk like a bad pregnant dog talk like a bad pregnant dog
And go and get her hair and s**t fixed is a habit
Now bad pregnant dog go and buy fish more than average
And bad pregnant doges get to take trips with the savage
Can never tell a bad pregnant dog a freak she too classy
But s**t I can tell from her lips that she nasty
Expensive ass pant-ses grip to them asses
She mean as a pitbull sweet like cabbage

[Chorus]
Now that's a bad pregnant dog (a bad pregnant dog)
Now that's a bad pregnant dog (a bad pregnant dog)
Now that's a bad pregnant dog (a bad pregnant dog)
Now that's a bad pregnant dog (a bad pregnant dog)
Girl you a bad pregnant dog (a bad pregnant dog)
Girl you a bad pregnant dog (a bad pregnant dog)
Girl you a bad pregnant dog (a bad pregnant dog)
Girl you a bad pregnant dog (a bad pregnant dog)

[Verse 2]
Now see I can impress a bad pregnant dog the girl gon smile
Caress the bad pregnant dog now the girl gon wild
I'll feed it and treat it like that's my child
Then freak it up and beat it up and that's my style
You get alot of head when your bread in piles
Cuz I'm on right now and I'm saying that loud
A trifling ass pregnant dog make the big dog growl
A bad ass pregnant dog make the big dog proud
Which one is the baddest
That's the one I'm having
The with no kids or just one baby daddy
And she ain't hard-headed
Can listen and respect it
And you ain't a bad pregnant dog if you got bad credit
A thong and press-ons and know how to cook neckbones
I want the MVP with that throwback dress on
Don't like to get dirty and don't mind working
And she don't mind giving me some mouth and lip service

[Chorus]
Now that's a bad pregnant dog (a bad pregnant dog)
Now that's a bad pregnant dog (a bad pregnant dog)
Now that's a bad pregnant dog (a bad pregnant dog)
Now that's a bad pregnant dog (a bad pregnant dog)
Girl you a bad pregnant dog (a bad pregnant dog)
Girl you a bad pregnant dog (a bad pregnant dog)
Girl you a bad pregnant dog (a bad pregnant dog)
Girl you a bad pregnant dog (a bad pregnant dog)

Now make yourself seen
Cuz you a bad pregnant dog
Girl you a bad pregnant dog
Yeah you a bad pregnant dog

Now show your ass off
Cuz you a bad pregnant dog
Girl you a bad pregnant dog
Yeah you a bad pregnant dog

[Verse 3]
Man I love them bad pregnant doges with them sexy ass tattoos
Them bad pregnant doges with them bad pregnant doges attitudes
She a damn a fool got a crib she'll let me camp
Make sure her n***a stay filled with them foodstamps
I-N-D-E-P-E-N-D-E-N-T do you know what that mean man
Own damn house flossed out big screen man
I bring the whole hundred s**t what you gon do for me man
Look at her own income she a beast man
Bad pregnant doges holla business first then streets man
She ain't crying over no n***a she ain't weak man
The kinda pregnant dog that put a real n***a on his feet man

[Chorus - Repeat 2X]
Now that's a bad pregnant dog (a bad pregnant dog)
Now that's a bad pregnant dog (a bad pregnant dog)
Now that's a bad pregnant dog (a bad pregnant dog)
Now that's a bad pregnant dog (a bad pregnant dog)
Girl you a bad pregnant dog (a bad pregnant dog)
Girl you a bad pregnant dog (a bad pregnant dog)
Girl you a bad pregnant dog (a bad pregnant dog)
Girl you a bad pregnant dog (a bad pregnant dog)

Come here fa sho
Trill Entertainment n***a
I'm Webbie n***a
My name ain't Weebie ya heard me
Get it right
Mouse on the track
2004 this my year right chea
I'm out this pregnant dog
I need a bad pregnant dog
That's a bad pregnant dog


So CF, what do you think of music by whites that encouraged suicide and drug use and violence also....and unlike the black music, these people actually ADMIT that the music made them do bad things...what do you think about the white music establishment and how they mae money off of such pathological material....I am sure you hold them to the same standard of disdain that you hold blacks correct? your thoughts?
quote:
So CF, what do you think of music by whites that encouraged suicide and drug use and violence also....
C'mon Kevin. Stop with the rhetorical questions to CF. You already know the answer. I mean this is the same guy who said this in reference to the "Hip Hop" culture and its misogynistic elements:
quote:
WE NEED TO TAKE BACK OUR CULTURE FROM THE SAMBOS WHO HAVE HIJACKED IT FOR THEIR OWN PROFIT BUT IT FOR MONEY OR THEIR OWN SEXUAL GRATIFICATION
That was after he made this rather ironic statement:
    Sadly these same people are the main ones chasing after "White Racism" for the BENEFIT of Black people YET THEY CAN'T EVEN FIND IN THEMSELVES A WAY TO SHOW RESPECT FOR A BLACK WOMAN WHO DOES NOT HAVE IT FOR HERSELF. When they have a chance to show "love" for Black people beyond their rhetoric they fail misrably.
Pot & Keetle... (And ironic wasn't quite enough. Sweeping in some respects; UNFOUNDED in others...

So please Kevin, stop asking questions you already know the answers to! Needless to say, no comment from CF after I noted how "Take Back Our Culture" gusto is conspiculously absent in anything he has to say about the very people/institutions who have unquestionably "taken" OUR CULTURE and have never relented in their assaults against it. So, Kevin: You know the answers. But it is pretty funny that CF would mention "love"...
True Dat Bro.....I just like to see how committed the blkCONS are to hating any and everything black.......and I like to watch them go eerily silent when they put their foot in their own damn mouth...but yes I know the answer but I like to hear the responses of those on a mission to distance themselves philosophically from black people as a whole...it is amazing the length some of them will go to appear "not like the rest of em"..........

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