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A Southern accent on day laborers
Stereotypes, language skills and the lowest price come into play as black Americans and Latino immigrants compete on an Atlanta street.
By Richard Fausset
Los Angeles Times Staff Writer

December 28, 2007


ATLANTA "” Outside the Home Depot on Ponce de Leon Avenue, no one engages in theoretical debates about whether illegal immigrants are competing for jobs with Americans.

Here, the competition unfolds whenever a truck pulls into the parking lot, its driver looking for day laborers.

On any given day, about half of the 30 or so men waiting to pounce on those trucks are Latinos, many of them undocumented. But the rest are African American men like Sam Gibbs. One chilly afternoon, Gibbs, 47, sprinted like a teenager toward a red pickup, hawking his services to two black men inside.

"Take a brother with you!" Gibbs pleaded. "I'm from South Carolina!" He had beaten out a sizable group of Latinos who soon surrounded the truck.

"Hold on guys," the driver announced. "I need a drywall finisher." He said he would pay $9 an hour.

Gibbs backed away. The Latinos began negotiating with the driver, who hired one of them for $12 an hour.

"Drywall finisher -- that's a specialty," Gibbs muttered as he walked back to his spot on the sidewalk near a Dunkin' Donuts. "Plus, he was only paying $9 an hour."

In the Deep South, like the rest of the nation, undocumented Latinos have come to dominate many of the corners and parking lots where day laborers gather. But this region is different because of the high percentage of Americans who still compete with Latino immigrants for such jobs. Although U.S.-born workers make up 7% of the day-labor pool nationwide, they account for nearly 20% in the South, according to a 2006 UCLA study.

Indeed, long before the Southern labor landscape was transformed by a tidal surge of Latin American immigrants, blacks and whites populated the "catch-out corners" in Southern communities, whistling and waving after employers in hopes of "catching out on a job" and pocketing a few tax-free dollars.

Many of the black workers who gather on Ponce de Leon today say that they cannot find regular work. Some have been laid off and some have criminal records or addictions. Others are supplementing a primary paycheck, or prefer to work under the radar, earning wages that are difficult to track. One man said he was trying to avoid court-mandated child support payments that he could not afford.

The black laborers speak of their Latino competitors with a mix of resentment, resignation and tolerance. Many reckon that tougher immigration laws would mean more work for them. But they also suspect that some old, familiar prejudices are energizing the anti-illegal-immigrant movement.

Frustration over the Latino presence was palpable in the loud, strained voice of Anthony Curtis, 42, a burly man in an orange parka. "They pick up the majority of the work," he said, motioning toward the Spanish-speaking men huddled nearby. "They dominate the corner."

But when Curtis was asked whether he supported a crackdown on illegal immigration, his voice softened. "That's a hard thing to say," he said. "You say that, you're on a racial-type mind-set. All I'm looking for is equal opportunity."

Ponce de Leon Avenue cuts through the heart of Atlanta, connecting the central city to the sprawling eastern suburbs. It looms large in local culture and history: The day laborers stand where the city's segregated baseball teams, the Atlanta Crackers and the Atlanta Black Crackers, once played home games.

The street winds through neighborhoods of wealth and want. The Home Depot is in a Midtown Atlanta shopping center with a Whole Foods market and a sushi restaurant. Up the street, the scruffy Clermont Motor Hotel lures some of the workers with rates of $40 a night.

The unregulated labor market runs on familiar principles. Jobs tend to go to low bidders, to workers with valued skills and to workers who are hungry enough to get to the trucks first. But racial stereotypes also exert an influence. Everyone agrees that it's better to be brown than to be black.

Jose Diaz, 38, an illegal immigrant from Michoacan, Mexico, said he regularly saw employers shun African American workers. "They don't want to pick them up because they don't like to work," he said.

"It's 100% true that we work harder than they do," said Victor Reyes, 45, an illegal immigrant from Guatemala, confident that his comments in Spanish would go unnoticed by the black workers within earshot.

It was a cold Tuesday morning. Reyes and the other men were spread out on a long sidewalk bordering the vast shopping mall complex. Blacks mingled with blacks, Latinos with Latinos -- a social segregation that is mostly the result of the language barrier.

Technically, the mall property is off-limits to the workers. They are under close watch by security guards who call police if anyone is caught loitering without the intent to shop. But if an employer and laborer can strike a deal fast enough, they can usually leave together without fear of a penalty.

Over the course of four mornings, many employers, though not all, were seen picking Latinos over blacks. They would not comment.

Watching the proceedings but declining to participate was a 57-year-old black man who called himself Jack Smith -- a necessary pseudonym, he said, because he was in violation of his parole. Since his release from state prison in January, Smith had worked off and on renovating houses for a small-scale developer, but he said his record tended to scare off many employers. For the last six months he had been out on the corner with a bag full of tools, extra socks, cigarettes and toilet paper.

Unlike many of the other workers, Smith refused to chase the trucks. He preferred to wait for an employer to seek him out -- although on slow days he would hail the odd truck passing on the street.

"If it was meant for me to have," he said, "God's going to bring it to me."

Trust in providence was not the only thing holding Smith back. He said it also seemed like a bad idea to run toward a stranger's vehicle with a pack of black men in the Deep South. "You get 12 to 14 black guys running up on a car," he said, "some white lady in there is going to be panicked."

Other black workers have devised rules to help them find work -- or simply survive. Steve Jackson, 27, said he always tried to keep his hands in his pockets. Taking them in and out might cause police to suspect he was a drug dealer. The headquarters of the Atlanta Police Department, he noted, is just across the street.

Hiram Evans, 44, said it was important to speak politely and carefully to employers.

"If you talk all alley -- if you can't talk right -- if your vocabulary messed up, they'll probably be like, 'Oh, he's been to prison,' " he said.

A 48-year-old Jamaican who gave his name as Valentine said the Caribbean lilt in his voice helped to differentiate him from the American-born black men. When employers heard it, he said, they sometimes traded negative stereotypes for positive ones.

"They know, 'He going to work,' " he said, laughing. "They know Jamaicans can keep three jobs, you know?"

The men agreed that the cards were stacked against them because so many employers came to hire Latinos. Some took offense at the idea that Latinos were more industrious. Others said it was probably true.

Lester Jackson noted that the going rate for an unskilled job out here was $10 an hour. "For a Mexican, that's a big deal," he said. "You only make $3 a week in Mexico. . . . They're going to work 10 times harder than an American will."

Jackson, 53, said the hustle of the Latino workers reminded him of his father's attitude when opportunities for blacks began to expand after the demise of Jim Crow laws. His father, he said, was thrilled to have the chance to get a decent-paying job, even if it wasn't a particularly glamorous one.

The men said there were times when it helped to be a black American. Some employers refused to hire illegal immigrants, and some jobs required a native speaker's command of English.

Though the black workers were resentful of illegal immigrants, they also felt sorry for them. They said they knew first-hand how a day laborer could be injured, stiffed by the boss or left stranded in the boondocks with no bus service. They knew that most illegal immigrants would not complain the way black Americans would because they feared deportation.

"There's nothing they can do," Smith said. "They can't play no defense. They can't call the police."

The next morning at 8, Smith and 10 other men were trudging up the sidewalk toward a nearby McDonald's. They had been rounded up by an ex-felon named James Rowe. A black employer had asked Rowe, 53,to assemble a team of workers to unload a truck full of Christmas trees at a nearby lot.

Rowe, who is black, chose eight black men and two whites for the job-- but no Latinos. He wasn't acting out of racism, he said, but out of fairness.

"I recognize most of these Mexicans out here," he said. "And they done worked all this week."

The men he chose, Rowe said, "need it more right now."

They were picked up in the McDonald's parking lot by Keith Johnson, an African American who owns a landscaping company. Johnson was helping another man set up a tree lot on the grounds of a middle school. Johnson said that he hires men of all races on Ponce de Leon when he needs extra labor. But he said he tended to favor black workers.

"It's basically out of loyalty," he said. "I'm a black business owner, and I know how it is out there. It's hard for me to get to the front of the line just because I'm black, you know?"

The men stood in the cold morning air next to an 18-wheeler piled 15 feet high with bound Frazier firs, receiving their simple instructions. They worked quickly, unloading 715 trees in two hours.

By 10:30 a.m., Rowe and Smith were back on Ponce de Leon, each with $30. Smith seemed invigorated by the money and the work. He smiled at a Latino whose face he had come to recognize over the months.

"Hey, que pasa, amigo?" he said. The man nodded back pleasantly.

The Christmas tree job would be the last Rowe and Smith would land for the day. At lunchtime, a man came by and hired a few workers, but he pointed only to Latinos.

Rowe had been living for a few days at the Clermont, but tonight he was short on cash. Smith, who was flopping in one of the empty houses he had remodeled, told Rowe he could stay with him for the night.

When the two men got to the house, a turn-of-the-century brick bungalow in Atlanta's West End, Smith proudly showed off the work he had done on the developer's behalf -- the painted porch, the new gutters and the new tile work in the bathroom.

Rowe shot Smith a look of feigned incredulity, and spoke like a man who believed black people could never be responsible for such quality work.

"Now you sure you didn't have a crew of Mexicans out here?" he said, smiling.

richard.fausset@latimes.com

source
Original Post

Replies sorted oldest to newest

quote:
"There's nothing they can do," Smith said. "They can't play no defense. They can't call the police."


Duh! That's what happens when you come into this country illegally aka breaking the law.

Hell, a black american male can't drive a car WITH a valid drivers license without being harassed by the police. What makes illegal aliens any better?

As you can tell, I have no sympathy for illegals, they have paid no dues here for any rights they believe they have (& as far as I'm concerned).

Black people better wake up because latinos are taking over and they don't give a damn about the rights of black americans.
quote:
Originally posted by Fabulous:
quote:
"There's nothing they can do," Smith said. "They can't play no defense. They can't call the police."


Duh! That's what happens when you come into this country illegally aka breaking the law.

Hell, a black american male can't drive a car WITH a valid drivers license without being harassed by the police. What makes illegal aliens any better?

As you can tell, I have no sympathy for illegals, they have paid no dues here for any rights they believe they have (& as far as I'm concerned).

Black people better wake up because latinos are taking over and they don't give a damn about the rights of black americans.


DITTO Fabulous!
quote:
Originally posted by Fabulous:
quote:
"There's nothing they can do," Smith said. "They can't play no defense. They can't call the police."


Duh! That's what happens when you come into this country illegally aka breaking the law.

Hell, a black american male can't drive a car WITH a valid drivers license without being harassed by the police. What makes illegal aliens any better?

As you can tell, I have no sympathy for illegals, they have paid no dues here for any rights they believe they have (& as far as I'm concerned).

Black people better wake up because latinos are taking over and they don't give a damn about the rights of black americans.


I agree with your post 100%, [well 90%); many Mexican 'citizens's have paid, literally. The tricky part is, for me anyway, that 'they' are bringing/have brought, with them, and are adopting the values of the European dominant community, regarding African Americans. They mean to 'wipe' out the African American community, and by they, I mean both the incoming 'new group' and the dominant culture. This is not about 'immigration', but replacement. ...will do work that 'even', blacks wont do..... Remember?
quote:
Originally posted by Kweli4Real:
With all due respect, it is this kind of thinking that has Black and Brown fighting over the crumbs that fall from the other man's table, as if crumbs will feed a nation.


Hmmmm ... I'm thinking it's the 'other man' himself that has Black and Brown fighting over crumbs seeing as how he makes sure neither Black nor Brown are invited to the table, consumes as much as he can and makes sure there's nothing but crumbs left after he is done.
quote:
Originally posted by nayo:
quote:
Originally posted by Fabulous:
quote:
"There's nothing they can do," Smith said. "They can't play no defense. They can't call the police."


Duh! That's what happens when you come into this country illegally aka breaking the law.

Hell, a black american male can't drive a car WITH a valid drivers license without being harassed by the police. What makes illegal aliens any better?

As you can tell, I have no sympathy for illegals, they have paid no dues here for any rights they believe they have (& as far as I'm concerned).

Black people better wake up because latinos are taking over and they don't give a damn about the rights of black americans.


I agree with your post 100%, [well 90%); many Mexican 'citizens's have paid, literally. The tricky part is, for me anyway, that 'they' are bringing/have brought, with them, and are adopting the values of the European dominant community, regarding African Americans. They mean to 'wipe' out the African American community, and by they, I mean both the incoming 'new group' and the dominant culture. This is not about 'immigration', but replacement. ...will do work that 'even', blacks wont do..... Remember?


I cannot say that I believe that the "incoming" group wants to 'wipe' out the Black community. There are more issues at play these articles convey. This isn't a new problem and its one that has an economic root to it.

That said, what is the irony over the Brown man and woman adopting white people's ideas concerning us while we accept the white mans frame of them and this whole situation? Mexican has become a generic term. There are many here from Central and South America. I personally haven't lost sight of the fact that many American companies have completely had their way with those countries, people land and resources.
quote:
Originally posted by *Muhammad Cipher*:

That said, what is the irony over the Brown man and woman adopting white people's ideas concerning us while we accept the white mans frame of them and this whole situation? Mexican has become a generic term. There are many here from Central and South America. I personally haven't lost sight of the fact that many American companies have completely had their way with those countries, people land and resources.


And they have not had their way with us as well? Confused
quote:
Originally posted by *Muhammad Cipher*:
quote:
Originally posted by nayo:
quote:
Originally posted by Fabulous:
quote:
"There's nothing they can do," Smith said. "They can't play no defense. They can't call the police."


Duh! That's what happens when you come into this country illegally aka breaking the law.

Hell, a black american male can't drive a car WITH a valid drivers license without being harassed by the police. What makes illegal aliens any better?

As you can tell, I have no sympathy for illegals, they have paid no dues here for any rights they believe they have (& as far as I'm concerned).

Black people better wake up because latinos are taking over and they don't give a damn about the rights of black americans.


I agree with your post 100%, [well 90%); many Mexican 'citizens's have paid, literally. The tricky part is, for me anyway, that 'they' are bringing/have brought, with them, and are adopting the values of the European dominant community, regarding African Americans. They mean to 'wipe' out the African American community, and by they, I mean both the incoming 'new group' and the dominant culture. This is not about 'immigration', but replacement. ...will do work that 'even', blacks wont do..... Remember?


I cannot say that I believe that the "incoming" group wants to 'wipe' out the Black community. There are more issues at play these articles convey. This isn't a new problem and its one that has an economic root to it.

That said, what is the irony over the Brown man and woman adopting white people's ideas concerning us while we accept the white mans frame of them and this whole situation? Mexican has become a generic term. There are many here from Central and South America. I personally haven't lost sight of the fact that many American companies have completely had their way with those countries, people land and resources.



I'm not talking, 'full out genocide'; but more, of a complete dismantling of the AA community, where the dollar of the AA community, will aid and abet, in stabalizing yet another group. For example, in the neighborhood where I grew up, most of the K-12 schools were named after presidents; then many changed over to King, Bethune, and local black community leaders. Since the influx of recent immigrants, ALL of these neighborhoods are anywhere from 45 to 80% latin, and all of the schools have been renamed to reflect latin and hispanic leaders. There was no 'classic' genocidal wipe-out of AA's; just replacement. In California, AA's are but a mere 6.7%; when I was growing up, AA's were at least 9 to 10%. Combine that with the Korean hair businesses in AA neighborhoods, Persian and Middle Eastern 'mom n' pop stores, and AA's as a community are null and void. Maybe it's just a 'natural' process, but I think there is more going on here; more 'urban & rural' planning, with some social engineering.
quote:
And they have not had their way with us as well?


One doesn't negate the other.

quote:
I'm not talking, 'full out genocide'; but more, of a complete dismantling of the AA community, where the dollar of the AA community, will aid and abet, in stabilizing yet another group. For example, in the neighborhood where I grew up, most of the K-12 schools were named after presidents; then many changed over to King, Bethune, and local black community leaders. Since the influx of recent immigrants, ALL of these neighborhoods are anywhere from 45 to 80% latin, and all of the schools have been renamed to reflect latin and hispanic leaders. There was no 'classic' genocidal wipe-out of AA's; just replacement. In California, AA's are but a mere 6.7%; when I was growing up, AA's were at least 9 to 10%. Combine that with the Korean hair businesses in AA neighborhoods, Persian and Middle Eastern 'mom n' pop stores, and AA's as a community are null and void. Maybe it's just a 'natural' process, but I think there is more going on here; more 'urban & rural' planning, with some social engineering.


Doing for self in their best interest is normal to them. It is us that have to be dragged kicking and screaming to support our own. This can be seen using Atlanta's Norcross area. I happen to know that several years ago there was a dust up about the number of "foreign signs" on Buford Hwy. However, neither Latino's or Korean's cared. Their attitude was "you can either learn to read the language or don't read the damn sign". Despite having a Latin Chamber of Commerce, they didn't waste time lobbying MARTA to "better serve them". They developed their own localized mass transit system.

The point is that their being here has only illustrated the extent to which we fail to understand the importance of doing for the interest of self (community).
quote:
Originally posted by *Muhammad Cipher*:
quote:
Originally posted by nayo:
quote:
Originally posted by Fabulous:
quote:
"There's nothing they can do," Smith said. "They can't play no defense. They can't call the police."


Duh! That's what happens when you come into this country illegally aka breaking the law.

Hell, a black american male can't drive a car WITH a valid drivers license without being harassed by the police. What makes illegal aliens any better?

As you can tell, I have no sympathy for illegals, they have paid no dues here for any rights they believe they have (& as far as I'm concerned).

Black people better wake up because latinos are taking over and they don't give a damn about the rights of black americans.


I agree with your post 100%, [well 90%); many Mexican 'citizens's have paid, literally. The tricky part is, for me anyway, that 'they' are bringing/have brought, with them, and are adopting the values of the European dominant community, regarding African Americans. They mean to 'wipe' out the African American community, and by they, I mean both the incoming 'new group' and the dominant culture. This is not about 'immigration', but replacement. ...will do work that 'even', blacks wont do..... Remember?


I cannot say that I believe that the "incoming" group wants to 'wipe' out the Black community. There are more issues at play these articles convey. This isn't a new problem and its one that has an economic root to it.

That said, what is the irony over the Brown man and woman adopting white people's ideas concerning us while we accept the white mans frame of them and this whole situation? Mexican has become a generic term. There are many here from Central and South America. I personally haven't lost sight of the fact that many American companies have completely had their way with those countries, people land and resources.


I didn't use the term 'wipe' out because that is not what I meant in my post. . .

I meant 'take over' in the literal sense of the words. . .

and I'm referring to those men and women who come here illegally.

THAT is what I'm talking about, nothing more nothing less.

I don't have a problem with IMMIGRATION. . .I have a problem with the ILLEGAL ALIEN situation in this country. There IS a difference whether ppl sugarcoat it or not
quote:
Originally posted by Kweli4Real:
With all due respect, it is this kind of thinking that has Black and Brown fighting over the crumbs that fall from the other man's table, as if crumbs will feed a nation.


with all due respect, we are talking about two different things here.

I'm referring to illegal aliens and their 'fight' should be in THEIR COUNTRY.

I'm referring to 'respect' for the laws of the land. . .

in a country that doesn't give a damn about black ppl.

What crumbs? Illegal aliens aren't entitled to (or shouldn't be) 'any' crumbs from the other man's table. . .

especially a table in the USA.

(when he/she is not supposed to be here in the first place and didn't follow the rules in the SECOND place)
quote:
Originally posted by Cocoa Starr:
quote:
Originally posted by Fabulous:
quote:
"There's nothing they can do," Smith said. "They can't play no defense. They can't call the police."


Duh! That's what happens when you come into this country illegally aka breaking the law.

Hell, a black american male can't drive a car WITH a valid drivers license without being harassed by the police. What makes illegal aliens any better?

As you can tell, I have no sympathy for illegals, they have paid no dues here for any rights they believe they have (& as far as I'm concerned).

Black people better wake up because latinos are taking over and they don't give a damn about the rights of black americans.


DITTO Fabulous!


tfro
I'll never understand why folk are so agreeable to opened borders & illegal aliens Confused

cause. . .

it's not just 'working' so-called honest people entering the country illegally but it's the CRIMINAL ELEMENT too.

And their first stop is the black community, I've seen it with my own eyes.

I'm sure if one of them were to gun down a loved one (g.d forbid), y'all would feel differently about it. . .

maybe

& just my opinion of course. Wink

Or maybe you (general) simply don't care about the havoc some of them bring to the black community.

Speaking for myself, my loyalties 'first & foremost' lay with my own people.

Sure, let them come. . .

but let them come LEGALLY (that's a 'true' immigrant)
quote:
Originally posted by Fabulous:
Duh! That's what happens when you come into this country illegally aka breaking the law... they have paid no dues here for any rights they believe they have (& as far as I'm concerned)...I don't have a problem with IMMIGRATION. . .I have a problem with the ILLEGAL ALIEN situation in this country. There IS a difference whether ppl sugarcoat it or not


I agree with this.

I will also say that it is also a slap in the face for those who are, or have been, waiting for years to get into this country for years, decades even, going about the process of becoming a citizen in accordance with the law.

quote:
Black people better wake up because latinos are taking over and they don't give a damn about the rights of black americans.


A wise man once said, "There is no such thing as permanent allies, only permanent interest".

Fabulous,

One of the problems is, and you know this, is that we've been "worked on", as a people... that if 'we' do and work for that which is in our interest, we are nationalist, reverse-racist, militants, etc.

We get distracted then neutralized by such empty rhetoric. The psychological warfare waged on black folks is no joke!!!
quote:
Originally posted by EbonyRose:
Hmmmm ... I'm thinking it's the 'other man' himself that has Black and Brown fighting over crumbs seeing as how he makes sure neither Black nor Brown are invited to the table, consumes as much as he can and makes sure there's nothing but crumbs left after he is done.


BINGO!

Is there a such thing as one doing what they have to do in order to survive, even it there actions are considered illegal? Rhetorical...My point is, while folks are coming over hear illegally, I can't be mad at them, deep down... For many of us would be surprise what we'd do to survive. A reality that doesn't bring much comfort, if I do say so myself, but a reality nontheless.

As Far as mexico is concerned, their govt. failed them and I'm surprised mexico (govt, that is) isn't ask the question, why do they continue to keep their country in a third world state?

Mexico possess the natural, mineral and energy resources to transform that country into a great power. Correct me if I'm wrong, but cuba, communist cuba, is doing better than mexico. Cuba is doing more with less.

19 ...Give it a couple of generations however, the brown will soon demand more for work than "crumbs". Where, next, will the cheap labor come from?
quote:
Originally posted by blaqfist:


Gibbs backed away. The Latinos began negotiating with the driver, who hired one of them for $12 an hour.



And we should support black business for this? If black businesses are not going to hire black workers, the what the fuck are they good for? If there is anyone in the story who should be punished, it is the people who hire, for whatever reason, illegal aliens for money that could be circulated in our economy, through our pockets.

Support black businesses my ass!
quote:
Originally posted by Wiz:
And we should support black business for this? If black businesses are not going to hire black workers, the what the fuck are they good for? If there is anyone in the story who should be punished, it is the people who hire, for whatever reason, illegal aliens for money that could be circulated in our economy, through our pockets.

Support black businesses my ass!



Are you on some kind of mind altering substance or do you have some kind of emotional hatred of AA business owners?

Where does it say anything about "black" businesses not hiring AAs?
quote:
Originally posted by Raptor:
quote:
Originally posted by Fabulous:
Duh! That's what happens when you come into this country illegally aka breaking the law... they have paid no dues here for any rights they believe they have (& as far as I'm concerned)...I don't have a problem with IMMIGRATION. . .I have a problem with the ILLEGAL ALIEN situation in this country. There IS a difference whether ppl sugarcoat it or not


I agree with this.

I will also say that it is also a slap in the face for those who are, or have been, waiting for years to get into this country for years, decades even, going about the process of becoming a citizen in accordance with the law.

quote:
Black people better wake up because latinos are taking over and they don't give a damn about the rights of black americans.


A wise man once said, "There is no such thing as permanent allies, only permanent interest".

Fabulous,

One of the problems is, and you know this, is that we've been "worked on", as a people... that if 'we' do and work for that which is in our interest, we are nationalist, reverse-racist, militants, etc.

We get distracted then neutralized by such empty rhetoric. The psychological warfare waged on black folks is no joke!!!


The above is soooooooo true but why does it continue?. . .black folk are at the bottom of the totem pole.

What purpose does it serve 'now'?
quote:
Originally posted by Raptor:
quote:
Originally posted by EbonyRose:
Hmmmm ... I'm thinking it's the 'other man' himself that has Black and Brown fighting over crumbs seeing as how he makes sure neither Black nor Brown are invited to the table, consumes as much as he can and makes sure there's nothing but crumbs left after he is done.


BINGO!

Is there a such thing as one doing what they have to do in order to survive, even it there actions are considered illegal? Rhetorical...My point is, while folks are coming over hear illegally, I can't be mad at them, deep down... For many of us would be surprise what we'd do to survive. A reality that doesn't bring much comfort, if I do say so myself, but a reality nontheless.

With all due respect Raptor, they are not coming from any worse a situation than black folk when we were slaves or during Jim Crow & the civil rights era. . .

I don't feel sorry for them because they (imo) are destroying the schools & hospitals in the black community by 1) crippling schools that were already in need of resources and 2) closing down hospitals that could no longer bear the financial burden of the illegal alien's medical care.

Why can't illegals protest in their own country against their own government to make them do the right thing for the people, as opposed to making 'our' government give them civil rights they are not entitled to.


As Far as mexico is concerned, their govt. failed them and I'm surprised mexico (govt, that is) isn't ask the question, why do they continue to keep their country in a third world state?

Mexico possess the natural, mineral and energy resources to transform that country into a great power. Correct me if I'm wrong, but cuba, communist cuba, is doing better than mexico. Cuba is doing more with less.

You make an excellent point and this is why I say, Mexico should be forced to do the right thing by their ppl instead of placing that particular burden on the United States.

19 ...Give it a couple of generations however, the brown will soon demand more for work than "crumbs". Where, next, will the cheap labor come from?


I agree tfro Wink
quote:
Originally posted by Fabulous:
I'll never understand why folk are so agreeable to opened borders & illegal aliens Confused

cause. . .

it's not just 'working' so-called honest people entering the country illegally but it's the CRIMINAL ELEMENT too.

And their first stop is the black community, I've seen it with my own eyes.

I'm sure if one of them were to gun down a loved one (g.d forbid), y'all would feel differently about it. . .

maybe

& just my opinion of course. Wink

Or maybe you (general) simply don't care about the havoc some of them bring to the black community.

Speaking for myself, my loyalties 'first & foremost' lay with my own people.

Sure, let them come. . .

but let them come LEGALLY (that's a 'true' immigrant)


Amen to this, Fabulous!! tfro

It absolutely amazes me how people so easily bounce over the word ILLEGAL as if it's not even there!! Or as if it doesn't refer to some criminal element or occurrence. 19

They are about the only people for whom criminality is rewarded (them and Wall Street CEOs)!! But us ... how many of us get punished for breaking no laws at all!?!? Eek

Wrong place, wrong time is enough to land us in jail. Intentionally breaking the law to get into this country gets you food, shelter, welfare, medical care and a driver's license!!

WTH is that?? Roll Eyes
Last edited {1}
quote:
Originally posted by MaynardJ:

Are you on some kind of mind altering substance or do you have some kind of emotional hatred of AA business owners?

Where does it say anything about "black" businesses not hiring AAs?

Did the article not say that the black business owner hired Mexicans for $12 an hour?

But more importantly than simply hiring Mexicans, it is also how much black businesses pay employees and what they do with their money that should matter to us. Perhaps a mind altering substance is what is called for in this matter. For some reason we have come to think that business owners can do no wrong and have no responsibility to the greater community that they need to fulfill.

Because of the depth of poverty in our community sacrifices were called for but rarely made. While we allow business owners to 'give back' to the community, the truth is what they give we could do without if we were to receive the best wages we could from them.

Mind altering indeed.
quote:
I don't feel sorry for them because they (imo) are destroying the schools & hospitals in the black community by 1) crippling schools that were already in need of resources and 2) closing down hospitals that could no longer bear the financial burden of the illegal alien's medical care.


Fabulous, I don't know if that's your quote or not, but it fits your sentiment ... so ...

This has been refuted and deconstructed time and time again. In fact, the onl;y place where you can find this argument are on white supremacist/anti-non-white immigration sites. So please stop spreading bad info.
quote:
Originally posted by Kweli4Real:
quote:
I don't feel sorry for them because they (imo) are destroying the schools & hospitals in the black community by 1) crippling schools that were already in need of resources and 2) closing down hospitals that could no longer bear the financial burden of the illegal alien's medical care.


Fabulous, I don't know if that's your quote or not, but it fits your sentiment ... so ...

This has been refuted and deconstructed time and time again. In fact, the onl;y place where you can find this argument are on white supremacist/anti-non-white immigration sites. So please stop spreading bad info.


Kwelireal, I don't care WHAT has been refuted and deconstructed time & time again. . .OBVIOUSLY, I disagree. td6

Here's a suggestion. . .

if you feel I am spreading bad info. feel free to scroll on by my posts.

But you won't stop my commentary, and that's for 'real'.
quote:
This has been refuted and deconstructed time and time again.


Yeah by who, national Mexican officials, business that benfit from depressed wages for low skilled workers and open borders advocates who don't give a damn about the black community? Facts are facts, you can try to characterized people who want CONTROLLED IMMIGRATION as bigots but that does not change the facts or the REALITY. It is common sense that the reason low skilled wages are being depressed is because of illegal immigration.

http://www.cis.org/articles/20...testimony040408.html - full article

The Impact of Immigration on Black Workers


Several studies have found that immigration has impacted the wages or employment of native-born African Americans. This includes recent studies by Borjas, Grogger, and Hanson that found that immigration reduces labor force participation of the least-educated black men.2 Research by Andrew Sum, Paul Harrington, and Ishwar Khatiwada at Northeastern University has found that immigrants are displacing young native-born men in the labor market and that the largest impact is on blacks and Hispanics.3 In my own research I have found that blacks are more likely to be in competition with immigrants than are whites.4 A 1995 study by Augustine Kposowa concluded that, "non-whites appear to lose jobs to immigrants and their earnings are depressed by immigrants."5 A 1998 study of the New York area by Howell and Mueller found that a 10-percentage-point increase in the immigrant share of an occupation reduced wages of black men about five percentage points. Given the large immigrant share of the occupations they studied, this implies a significant impact on native-born blacks.6


There certainly is a good deal of anecdotal evidence that employers often prefer immigrants, particularly Hispanic and Asian immigrants, over native-born black Americans. A more qualitative study by anthropologist Katherine Newman and Chauncy Lennon of fast food jobs in Harlem, found that immigrants are much more likely to get hired than are native-born black Americans.7

Some studies have not found an impact on blacks from immigration. Most studies that have found little or no impact are based on comparisons of labor market outcomes across cities with different levels of immigrants. Part of the reason it is hard to estimate the effect of immigration in this way is that we live in a national economy. The movement of capital, labor, goods, and services tends to create wage and employment equilibrium between American cities. Moreover, immigrants are attracted to cities with higher wage and employment growth. This will tend to mask the impact of immigration. As a result, comparisons across cities will tend to understate the immigration effect. Studies that have tended to treat the country as one large labor market have found larger effects than have cross city comparisons.


http://www.cis.org/articles/2004/fiscalexec.html - full article

This study is one of the first to estimate the total impact of illegal immigration on the federal budget. Most previous studies have focused on the state and local level and have examined only costs or tax payments, but not both. Based on Census Bureau data, this study finds that, when all taxes paid (direct and indirect) and all costs are considered, illegal households created a net fiscal deficit at the federal level of more than $10 billion in 2002. We also estimate that, if there was an amnesty for illegal aliens, the net fiscal deficit would grow to nearly $29 billion.

Among the findings:

Households headed by illegal aliens imposed more than $26.3 billion in costs on the federal government in 2002 and paid only $16 billion in taxes, creating a net fiscal deficit of almost $10.4 billion, or $2,700 per illegal household.


Among the largest costs are Medicaid ($2.5 billion); treatment for the uninsured ($2.2 billion); food assistance programs such as food stamps, WIC, and free school lunches ($1.9 billion); the federal prison and court systems ($1.6 billion); and federal aid to schools ($1.4 billion).


With nearly two-thirds of illegal aliens lacking a high school degree, the primary reason they create a fiscal deficit is their low education levels and resulting low incomes and tax payments, not their legal status or heavy use of most social services.


On average, the costs that illegal households impose on federal coffers are less than half that of other households, but their tax payments are only one-fourth that of other households.


Many of the costs associated with illegals are due to their American-born children, who are awarded U.S. citizenship at birth. Thus, greater efforts at barring illegals from federal programs will not reduce costs because their citizen children can continue to access them.


If illegal aliens were given amnesty and began to pay taxes and use services like households headed by legal immigrants with the same education levels, the estimated annual net fiscal deficit would increase from $2,700 per household to nearly $7,700, for a total net cost of $29 billion.


Costs increase dramatically because unskilled immigrants with legal status -- what most illegal aliens would become -- can access government programs, but still tend to make very modest tax payments.


Although legalization would increase average tax payments by 77 percent, average costs would rise by 118 percent.


The fact that legal immigrants with few years of schooling are a large fiscal drain does not mean that legal immigrants overall are a net drain -- many legal immigrants are highly skilled.


The vast majority of illegals hold jobs. Thus the fiscal deficit they create for the federal government is not the result of an unwillingness to work.


The results of this study are consistent with a 1997 study by the National Research Council, which also found that immigrants' education level is a key determinant of their fiscal impact.

------

More studies by Universities are proving the above points TIME AND AGAIN, OVER AND OVER, are you going to characterized these institutions as bigots too?
quote:
Originally posted by Kweli4Real:
quote:
Here's a suggestion. . .

if you feel I am spreading bad info. feel free to scroll on by my posts.

But you won't stop my commentary, and that's for 'real'.


Actually, I was hoping that reminding you that your argument has been refuted and proven inaccurate/incorrect/without merit ... that you would re-think your position. I guess not ...


And you guessed right.

Proven inaccurate /incorrect/without merit by who? YOU? 20

please.
quote:
Originally posted by Kweli4Real:
quote:
I don't feel sorry for them because they (imo) are destroying the schools & hospitals in the black community by 1) crippling schools that were already in need of resources and 2) closing down hospitals that could no longer bear the financial burden of the illegal alien's medical care.


Fabulous, I don't know if that's your quote or not, but it fits your sentiment ... so ...

This has been refuted and deconstructed time and time again. In fact, the onl;y place where you can find this argument are on white supremacist/anti-non-white immigration sites. So please stop spreading bad info.


Sort of off

Hmmm. I dunno. My older sister works is medical accounting. She's been saying this years. She's worked in small practice offices as well as large hospitals. Anecdotal, yes, but it seems to jibe with what I've witnessed in the communities I've lived in.

It think it would be interesting to see a real, unadulterated set of financials for a typical city hospital. I guess I'd be looking for chargeoffs because neither the patient or possible insurance company has paid. 19

I think I'll go a-Googling.
quote:
Originally posted by Momentum:
quote:
This has been refuted and deconstructed time and time again.


Yeah by who, national Mexican officials, business that benfit from depressed wages for low skilled workers and open borders advocates who don't give a damn about the black community? Facts are facts, you can try to characterized people who want CONTROLLED IMMIGRATION as bigots but that does not change the facts or the REALITY. It is common sense that the reason low skilled wages are being depressed is because of illegal immigration.

http://www.cis.org/articles/20...testimony040408.html - full article

The Impact of Immigration on Black Workers


Several studies have found that immigration has impacted the wages or employment of native-born African Americans. This includes recent studies by Borjas, Grogger, and Hanson that found that immigration reduces labor force participation of the least-educated black men.2 Research by Andrew Sum, Paul Harrington, and Ishwar Khatiwada at Northeastern University has found that immigrants are displacing young native-born men in the labor market and that the largest impact is on blacks and Hispanics.3 In my own research I have found that blacks are more likely to be in competition with immigrants than are whites.4 A 1995 study by Augustine Kposowa concluded that, "non-whites appear to lose jobs to immigrants and their earnings are depressed by immigrants."5 A 1998 study of the New York area by Howell and Mueller found that a 10-percentage-point increase in the immigrant share of an occupation reduced wages of black men about five percentage points. Given the large immigrant share of the occupations they studied, this implies a significant impact on native-born blacks.6


There certainly is a good deal of anecdotal evidence that employers often prefer immigrants, particularly Hispanic and Asian immigrants, over native-born black Americans. A more qualitative study by anthropologist Katherine Newman and Chauncy Lennon of fast food jobs in Harlem, found that immigrants are much more likely to get hired than are native-born black Americans.7

Some studies have not found an impact on blacks from immigration. Most studies that have found little or no impact are based on comparisons of labor market outcomes across cities with different levels of immigrants. Part of the reason it is hard to estimate the effect of immigration in this way is that we live in a national economy. The movement of capital, labor, goods, and services tends to create wage and employment equilibrium between American cities. Moreover, immigrants are attracted to cities with higher wage and employment growth. This will tend to mask the impact of immigration. As a result, comparisons across cities will tend to understate the immigration effect. Studies that have tended to treat the country as one large labor market have found larger effects than have cross city comparisons.


http://www.cis.org/articles/2004/fiscalexec.html - full article

This study is one of the first to estimate the total impact of illegal immigration on the federal budget. Most previous studies have focused on the state and local level and have examined only costs or tax payments, but not both. Based on Census Bureau data, this study finds that, when all taxes paid (direct and indirect) and all costs are considered, illegal households created a net fiscal deficit at the federal level of more than $10 billion in 2002. We also estimate that, if there was an amnesty for illegal aliens, the net fiscal deficit would grow to nearly $29 billion.

Among the findings:

Households headed by illegal aliens imposed more than $26.3 billion in costs on the federal government in 2002 and paid only $16 billion in taxes, creating a net fiscal deficit of almost $10.4 billion, or $2,700 per illegal household.


Among the largest costs are Medicaid ($2.5 billion); treatment for the uninsured ($2.2 billion); food assistance programs such as food stamps, WIC, and free school lunches ($1.9 billion); the federal prison and court systems ($1.6 billion); and federal aid to schools ($1.4 billion).


With nearly two-thirds of illegal aliens lacking a high school degree, the primary reason they create a fiscal deficit is their low education levels and resulting low incomes and tax payments, not their legal status or heavy use of most social services.


On average, the costs that illegal households impose on federal coffers are less than half that of other households, but their tax payments are only one-fourth that of other households.


Many of the costs associated with illegals are due to their American-born children, who are awarded U.S. citizenship at birth. Thus, greater efforts at barring illegals from federal programs will not reduce costs because their citizen children can continue to access them.


If illegal aliens were given amnesty and began to pay taxes and use services like households headed by legal immigrants with the same education levels, the estimated annual net fiscal deficit would increase from $2,700 per household to nearly $7,700, for a total net cost of $29 billion.


Costs increase dramatically because unskilled immigrants with legal status -- what most illegal aliens would become -- can access government programs, but still tend to make very modest tax payments.


Although legalization would increase average tax payments by 77 percent, average costs would rise by 118 percent.


The fact that legal immigrants with few years of schooling are a large fiscal drain does not mean that legal immigrants overall are a net drain -- many legal immigrants are highly skilled.


The vast majority of illegals hold jobs. Thus the fiscal deficit they create for the federal government is not the result of an unwillingness to work.


The results of this study are consistent with a 1997 study by the National Research Council, which also found that immigrants' education level is a key determinant of their fiscal impact.

------

More studies by Universities are proving the above points TIME AND AGAIN, OVER AND OVER, are you going to characterized these institutions as bigots too?


appl now THAT's what I'm talking about. appl

Great post, Momentum tfro

The information you posted is much appreciated and so far no response FROM kwelireal. . .

cause after all, according to KR, the subject/topic has already been refuted & deconstructed and is inaccurate/incorrect and without merit.

Yeah right.
quote:
Originally posted by EbonyRose:
quote:
Originally posted by Fabulous:
I'll never understand why folk are so agreeable to opened borders & illegal aliens Confused

cause. . .

it's not just 'working' so-called honest people entering the country illegally but it's the CRIMINAL ELEMENT too.

And their first stop is the black community, I've seen it with my own eyes.

I'm sure if one of them were to gun down a loved one (g.d forbid), y'all would feel differently about it. . .

maybe

& just my opinion of course. Wink

Or maybe you (general) simply don't care about the havoc some of them bring to the black community.

Speaking for myself, my loyalties 'first & foremost' lay with my own people.

Sure, let them come. . .

but let them come LEGALLY (that's a 'true' immigrant)


Amen to this, Fabulous!! tfro

It absolutely amazes me how people so easily bounce over the word ILLEGAL as if it's not even there!! Or as if it doesn't refer to some criminal element or occurrence. 19

They are about the only people for whom criminality is rewarded (them and Wall Street CEOs)!! But us ... how many of us get punished for breaking no laws at all!?!? Eek

Wrong place, wrong time is enough to land us in jail. Intentionally breaking the law to get into this country gets you food, shelter, welfare, medical care and a driver's license!!

WTH is that?? Roll Eyes


appl Right on EbonyRose Wink , you are right on the money and I totally agree with you tfro
Center for Immigration Studies lol Okay, maybe we should look to AmRen.com or VDare for the definitive word on Black folks in America.

How about using numbers collected by non-partisan sources such as the following: http://www.state.mn.us/mn/exte...ion%20Brief%2026.pdf

You will note that the study concludes that illegal immigration presents a significant cost to society, one should also note that the study also concludes that illegal immigrants also CONTRIBUTE significantly TO society.

But that said, we are fighting the wrong fight ... we should be fighting to create an environment where there is no longer a need to immigrate to the US for purely economic reasons.
quote:
Originally posted by Kweli4Real:
Center for Immigration Studies lol Okay, maybe we should look to AmRen.com or VDare for the definitive word on Black folks in America.

How about using numbers collected by non-partisan sources such as the following: http://www.state.mn.us/mn/exte...ion%20Brief%2026.pdf

You will note that the study concludes that illegal immigration presents a significant cost to society, one should also note that the study also concludes that illegal immigrants also CONTRIBUTE significantly TO society.

But that said, we are fighting the wrong fight ... we should be fighting to create an environment where there is no longer a need to immigrate to the US for purely economic reasons.
yeah
Illegal immigrants are bankrupting our hospitals
Daniel J. Popeo
Jul 29, 2008 11:18 AM

Hard-working Americans, many of whom are our uninsured working poor, are paying billions in taxes for illegal immigrants' medical care. Thanks to the federal government's lax border enforcement, more than 12 million illegal aliens residing in the United States are bankrupting our hospitals.

Can we really afford to be the world's hospital? America is facing an acute medical care crisis of epic proportions because of an abysmal failure of leadership in Washington. As a recent front-page New York Times article reported, "the growing population of illegal immigrants have flooded the ranks of the uninsured."

That story recounted the closing of a general acute care hospital in Los Angeles, the 15th in that city alone since 2000. Los Angeles County Supervisor Michael Antonovich stated in another article, "We're running an HMO for illegal immigrants and if we keep it up, we're going to bankrupt the county."

Hospitals are closing — or bleeding red ink — not only in our border states, but also in cities such as Philadelphia, Cleveland and Washington, D.C. According to estimates, Texas taxpayers had to cough up more than $1.3 billion to cover un-reimbursed medical expenses for illegal aliens in 2006.

In Maricopa County, Ariz., five health care providers lost more than $300 million in one year for uncompensated care, much of it due to uninsured illegals. Incredibly, Mexican ambulance drivers are often ordered to take uninsured illegals across the border to our already overcrowded emergency rooms.

And more than 300,000 babies born to illegal aliens annually, so-called "anchor babies," automatically become U.S. citizens entitled to free full medical care. Consider the plight of just one hospital.

An illegal immigrant from Guatemala was seriously injured in a car accident in 2000 and taken to Martin Memorial Medical Center in Stuart, Fla. He was treated but needed long-term care and rehabilitation, which the hospital was not equipped to handle.

Because he had no relatives in the United States and because Medicaid would only pay for the initial emergency treatment, the hospital incurred more than $1.5 million for his round-the-clock care from 2001 to 2003.

With no help from federal immigration officials to deport the illegal, the hospital contacted Guatemalan authorities and the immigrant's family, who said they could care for him.

The hospital obtained court approval to send him home via air ambulance at a cost of $30,000. Letting no good deed go unpunished, opportunistic plaintiffs' lawyers later sued the hospital for "false imprisonment" because after the illegal was sent home, the authorizing court order was overturned on appeal on technical grounds.

This Kafkaesque case has been pending for the last four years, costing the hospital yet another $250,000 in legal defense fees, with no end in sight. Martin Memorial spent another $1.5 million for two years of medical care for an illegal alien from Mexico.

The hospital repeatedly called Mexican consulate authorities and the Department of Homeland Security, neither of whom were interested in deporting him, even though the hospital offered to pay another $30,000 to send him home by air ambulance.

Martin Memorial also has a half dozen illegals taking expensive dialysis treatments three times a week, not to mention incurring costs for delivering hundreds of anchor babies every year. And this is just one hospital!

The Florida Hospital Association estimated that Florida hospitals have spent more than $100 million on illegal aliens' medical care. Across the country, many illegals regularly use emergency rooms to receive treatment for non-emergency care, knowing they can't be turned away.

Is this any way to run our nation's medical care system? All of these billions of dollars that taxpayers and hospitals are forced to spend for illegal immigrants are draining funds that could help our own citizens.

Reduced funds can lead federal health officials to be especially stingy when deciding which drugs to cover under Medicare. For instance, the Centers for Medicare and Medicaid Services within the Department of Health and Human Services have denied full coverage for a medication approved for use in African-American heart failure patients, despite the drug's commendable success rate and lack of a Food and Drug Administration-approved substitute.

How can it be that our federal government must pay the medical expenses for illegal aliens, but can't cover a drug for its own citizens that helps save lives?

So the next time you hear politicians complain about increased medical costs, lack of health care, and the rising ranks of the uninsured, ask them why they let it get that way — and what they intend to do about it.

Examiner contributor Daniel J. Popeo is chairman and general counsel of the Washington Legal Foundation.

Note: This column originally appeared in The Washington Examiner on July 10, 2008.

Examiner

http://www.examiner.com/a-1510...g_our_hospitals.html
I've never heard "fair" referred to as a white supremacist hate group.

The reason that I linked to their site is because they are referenced in the 2006 TX. Comptroller report that I listed.

More specifically, the report disagrees with some of "Fair's" data.

The report addresses everything from jobs to healthcare for illegal aliens in Texas.

I hope that clears up your concerns and questions sir.

Furthermore, why is it that whenever someone talks about the impact of illegal aliens you call them hate mongers or racist?

I'm just curious. Because you always say that without ever acknowledging the fact that people are speaking specifically about illegal aliens, not legal immigrants.

I would like very much to read your response. I want to understand your line of thinking as it relates to illegal immigration.

Please move beyond the argument that this is Mexican land. Because in reality it was someone else's before Mexico claimed it as their own.

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