quote:
Domestic violence and violence in general is a serious problem in this country, and it's helpful to at least talk about it. Healing must come before upliftment and rejoicing.


I completely agree with this.

quote:
Discussing mens' role in ending the cylce of violence (as it relates to your article) will significantly help women and children AVOID being victims of abuse and mistreatment.


Puhleeze 20 Other than scaring women and children to the point of not wanting to enter into any relationship, or making women feel better [i.e., it's not their fault], how would talking about mens' role in ending the cylce of violence (as it relates to your article) will significantly help women and children AVOID being victims of abuse and mistreatment?

That is beyond bs
quote:
Originally posted by Rowe:
quote:
Originally posted by EbonyRose:
quote:
Originally posted by Oshun Auset:

If you wanted to focus on female victims... Why did you post an article focussed on male perpetrators?


I don't want to focus on females as VICTIMS at all. Never have.

In fact, I wish more people would focus on attributes that uplift women and help them to AVOID being victims.

But that can't/hasn't/won't/doesn't happen.

And I posted the story because I thought it was of interest.

Isn't that typically why most people here post a story? Confused


Discussing mens' role in ending the cycle of violence (as it relates to your article) WILL significantly help women and children avoid being victims of abuse and mistreatment. Women children do not abuse themselves, and so it is just as important to at least SOMETIMES focus on mens' role as victimizers as it is to SOMETIMES focus on women as unfortunately and all too often being the victims of abuse. We can't all the time keep our heads in the coulds avoiding harsh realities. Healing must come before upliftment and rejoicing.


If more women were educated and encouraged on the ways of how NOT to become a victim ... much less need for healing and dicussion on men's roles would be necessary.

But, again, since ALMOST ALL discussion on this subject centers on men and men's roles, (with a sidebar of women as victims) even to the point of discussing the behavior and miseducation of little boys (with not even close to equal time being alloted for addressing the same for little girls) ... then that "SOMETIMES" thing you're talking about is really more of a moot point.
quote:
Originally posted by Rowe:
quote:
Originally posted by EbonyRose:
quote:
Originally posted by Oshun Auset:

If you wanted to focus on female victims... Why did you post an article focussed on male perpetrators?


I don't want to focus on females as VICTIMS at all. Never have.

In fact, I wish more people would focus on attributes that uplift women and help them to AVOID being victims.

But that can't/hasn't/won't/doesn't happen.

And I posted the story because I thought it was of interest.

Isn't that typically why most people here post a story? Confused


Discussing mens' role in ending the cycle of violence (as it relates to your article) WILL significantly help women and children avoid being victims of abuse and mistreatment. Women and children do not abuse themselves, and so it is just as important to at least SOMETIMES focus on mens' role as victimizers as it is to SOMETIMES focus on women as unfortunately and all too often being the victims of abuse. We can't all the time keep our heads in the coulds avoiding harsh realities. Domestic violence and violence in general is a serious problem in this country, and it's helpful to at least talk about it. Healing must come before upliftment and rejoicing.


Wait a minute. Are you saying that women are totally incapable of abusing anyone? Confused

Are you kidding me? Maybe not physically violent toward men en masse, but women certainly can be violent toward children. Remember Susan Smith, Andrea Yates, and Penny's biological mother on "Good Times?" And verbal abuse? Men can't even hold a candle to them.

Women can be very capable of abuse. The problem is that society has a problem punishing women who commit crimes, especially violent ones. And the court system is notorious for being extremely lenient on female suspects who commit crimes, especially those who abuse children, compared to men who commit the same crimes.
quote:
Originally posted by Huey:

and Penny's biological mother on "Good Times?"



Did you roll up in here and provide a fictitious character as an example of domestic violence? And ain't nowhere in this thread nor any other domestic violence thread has it been said that women are NEVER the perpetrators of domestic violence.

Get a grip 18
quote:
Originally posted by Kweli4Real:

Puhleeze 20 Other than scaring women and children to the point of not wanting to enter into any relationship, or making women feel better [i.e., it's not their fault], how would talking about mens' role in ending the cylce of violence (as it relates to your article) will significantly help women and children AVOID being victims of abuse and mistreatment?

That is beyond bs



It seems strange that you get to be condescending as hell, but any real talk about the preponderance of perpetrators is tantamount to inflicting "suffering" upon you, and a direct affront to you PERSONALLY...

You have yet to explain why you flip the hell out EVERY time this discussion comes up.
quote:
Originally posted by EbonyRose:
quote:
Originally posted by Oshun Auset:

If you wanted to focus on female victims... Why did you post an article focussed on male perpetrators?


I don't want to focus on females as VICTIMS at all. Never have.

In fact, I wish more people would focus on attributes that uplift women and help them to AVOID being victims.

But that can't/hasn't/won't/doesn't happen.

And I posted the story because I thought it was of interest.

Isn't that typically why most people here post a story? Confused


Roll Eyes Ok let's try this again ER,

If you want to focus on the females period... be it preventative measures ect... Why did you post an article focussed on male perpetrators, which you admiteddly don't want to focuss on? Could you not find an article of the subject matter you wanted to exclusively discuss?
quote:
Originally posted by negrospiritual:
quote:
Originally posted by Huey:

and Penny's biological mother on "Good Times?"



Did you roll up in here and provide a fictitious character as an example of domestic violence? And ain't nowhere in this thread nor any other domestic violence thread has it been said that women are NEVER the perpetrators of domestic violence.

Get a grip 18


Get over yourself. td6

You know it exists. You're just in denial of it.
quote:
Originally posted by Huey:

Get over yourself. td6

You know it exists. You're just in denial of it.



You need the lie so badly. Like a drug! You can't even find a quote where NEGROSPIRITUAL or any other poster in this thread has denied that female initiated domestic violence exists. In fact everybody knows it's a given so the puzzle is why some go into paroxysms when the FACT that males commit most domestic violence is mentioned.

Can you comment on the original article or did you come up in this post to bring more drama? I swear i never seen MEN cause this much drama!
quote:
Originally posted by Huey:
quote:
Originally posted by negrospiritual:
quote:
Originally posted by Huey:

and Penny's biological mother on "Good Times?"



Did you roll up in here and provide a fictitious character as an example of domestic violence? And ain't nowhere in this thread nor any other domestic violence thread has it been said that women are NEVER the perpetrators of domestic violence.

Get a grip 18


Get over yourself. td6

You know it exists. You're just in denial of it.


This is just sad... but it was so ridiculous it made me giggle... Reading is fundamental Huey... The emboldenned part of NS's post(or anyone elses post in this thread BTW) is interpreted by you as a denial of female abuse existing by what method? Cuz it can't be reading conprehension or logic... Please explain... This thread has gone to hell since jump as far as any serious dialogue is concerned... So please, entertain me.
quote:
Originally posted by Oshun Auset:
quote:
Originally posted by EbonyRose:
quote:
Originally posted by Oshun Auset:

If you wanted to focus on female victims... Why did you post an article focussed on male perpetrators?


I don't want to focus on females as VICTIMS at all. Never have.

In fact, I wish more people would focus on attributes that uplift women and help them to AVOID being victims.

But that can't/hasn't/won't/doesn't happen.

And I posted the story because I thought it was of interest.

Isn't that typically why most people here post a story? Confused


Roll Eyes Ok let's try this again ER,

If you want to focus on the females period... be it preventative measures ect... Why did you post an article focussed on male perpetrators, which you admiteddly don't want to focuss on? Could you not find an article of the subject matter you wanted to exclusively discuss?


OA .. it's not like I went out on some major search mission to seek and find a story about abuse, whether it be males + abuse, females + abuse, or any other abuse-related situation.

I saw a story ... (and, admittedly, it did seem to have a different kind of focus than what it usually discussed .. and I do think "different is good"), and I posted it, as I do a lot of stories that I have no personal interest or stake in or opinion about, just as something that someone else here may be interested in reading.

There was no ulterior motive. There was certainly no intent to start a devisive 15-page conversation .. that, quite personally, I believe would (or at least could) have taken a different turn has it not been responded to in the manner that it was. sck

But ... who really knows whether or not that's true? Confused The conversation could have taken that direction anyway. But, it wasn't me who sent it down this path. I simply posted a story ...that I had read that I thought someone else might be interested reading as well. I do it all the time. And have done so for years now.

This story was not intended to reflect a personal opinion of mine or suggest my feelings on the subject one way or the other ... which is why I offered no personal comment to it afterwards, as I sometimes will, when I have something to say.

I just posted (yet another) story I saw on the Internet. That's it. That's all. No popcorn. No T-shirt. End of story.

I really don't know what else to tell you. sck
quote:
but any real talk about the preponderance of perpetrators is tantamount to inflicting "suffering" upon you, and a direct affront to you PERSONALLY...


What real talk? Saying that men are the majority of abusers is supposed to rationalize the gender specific:

1. It is NOT acceptable for men to be violent.
2. It is NOT acceptable for men to exert power in destructive ways.
3. It is NOT acceptable for men to have sex irresponsibly and to not be held accountable for their decisions regarding sex or violence; as opposed more inclusive statement that I made. Oh but that's the rub, isn't it? That woman would be included in the teaching.
From earlier...


quote:
Originally posted by Oshun Auset:
quote:
Originally posted by EbonyRose:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Oshun Auset:

Why has the conversation strayed so far away from that subject?


The answer to that is: Khalliqua. And her sarcasm. Which admittedly, you understand (and apparently) agree with.

So why are you asking ME what happened and why what went wrong went wrong? Confused Why am I the one being chastised when I simply posted a story .. with no additional comment or addition .... but took offense at a sarcastic remark and comment directed squarely at me??? Confused

You wanna talk about shitty ..... Roll Eyes


You forgot something ER... You posted a thread entitled "Men tell Oprah why they beat the women they love"

...and your 'indepth' responseattempt at having a supposedly 'different' kind of discussion was to focus on the exact opposite subject of your own posted article? Come now...

quote:
This thread is FULL of what *he* should or should not do, what *his* duties and responsibilities should or should not be, how *his* actions should be determined, interpreted or dealt with .....

But what about HERS????


What about hers? Why did you post a thread about the exact opposite subject than you wanted to, and actually DID focus on? What was your point in posting this article? Are you trying to feign like you couldn't find one that focuessed on women or the victim on the WWW? That would only be the logical thing to do if that is what you really wanted to and did discuss and focus on... Why would you critique your own chosen article for what it didn't discuss instead of choosing an article that DID discuss her? That's weird to say the least... and is a red flag to anyone analyzing this thread... Your true motivations MUST HAVE been to be shitty... That, our your choice of post is just straight up illogical...

quote:
His blame - in no way, shape, form or fashion -absolves HER of her responsibilities for or towards herself and any children she has brought into this world. No other person – male or female – has control over a woman’s responsibility to do what is in her best self-interest. It is hers, and hers alone.

Unlike you and Ms. K., I am not willing to issue *dummy passes* to ANY .. and I do mean, ANY female ... just because her husband/boyfriend hits her. This is because I know that in her lies the strength to be the nurturer of all humanity. Women are given both the strength and the capacity to be the caretakers of the earth. We are given the duty to give birth to life itself. The inner strength of the woman – and especially the Black woman – has been the endurance of the survival of all humankind. You wanna talk about hard work?? THAT is hard work .. and it takes a lot to get it done… and done right. Juggling family, friends, a career, a home, and ourselves, is hard.

Knowing that your face should not be getting punched with a man’s fist … is NOT a difficult task. It’s not rocket science. In fact, it’s at about the Sesame Street level of comprehension compared to everything else that we have to do and take care of.

For whatever reason a woman chooses to stay in an abusive relationship - she does CHOOSE to disregard the responsibility she has to protect herself and her children, if any, from harm. Most women CAN leave … even if where they have to go is undesirable to them. They may choose not to leave. But the choice is still theirs, and one that she makes.

The issue of a woman’s responsibility to herself is a totally separate issue from the man and/or what his actions are. It has nothing to do with who started the fight or why the abuse happened. You can add in the factors of her being weak, or brainwashed, or simply ‘in love’ with her abuser as excuses as to why she chooses to stay. But the man cannot be blamed for HER actions (or the lack thereof). She is nobody’s slave or property. She is her own owner. And the responsibility of herself belongs only to her and to no one else. For as long as she shall live.


By the way, it's also very illogical to criticize others for focussing on the article's actual subject matter as you did below, considering you posted it. Why would you make the 'opennening' comment below as if people sticking to the thread subject is somehow strange and/or unwanted?

quote:
This thread is FULL of what *he* should or should not do, what *his* duties and responsibilities should or should not be, how *his* actions should be determined, interpreted or dealt with .....

But what about HERS????


AT the least you must realize the lack of logic in all of this if there was no alternative motivation... If you will admit to this illogic is an all together different matter...
quote:
Originally posted by Kweli4Real:
quote:
but any real talk about the preponderance of perpetrators is tantamount to inflicting "suffering" upon you, and a direct affront to you PERSONALLY...


What real talk? Saying that men are the majority of abusers is supposed to rationalize the gender specific:

1. It is NOT acceptable for men to be violent.
2. It is NOT acceptable for men to exert power in destructive ways.
3. It is NOT acceptable for men to have sex irresponsibly and to not be held accountable for their decisions regarding sex or violence; as opposed more inclusive statement that I made. Oh but that's the rub, isn't it? That woman would be included in the teaching.


Everytime prejudice, or any type of injustice perpetrated mainly by Whites towards Blacks is brought up, I BETTER see that the reverse scenerio is brought up and universal "nobody should descriminate, be prejudice ect." lines be posted by all you folks who keep harping about inclusive gender discussions on a thread like this... Otherwise there is a GLARING contradiction and it will be BLATENTLY obvious that gender is being treated completely differently than race by you folks, for whatever reason(and I don't presume to know what that is). Race, class, and gender are all lines that oppression and exploitation fall on, and should be dealt with similarly and in some kind of consistent manner...

Whenever white trolls on here want to switch focus from a convo about their majority behavior to the minority behavior(which we all know is always a diversion tactic to avoid dealing with the issue of their majority institutionalized bad behavior head on) I shouldn't see a single post taking issue with that... Otherwise a hypocrite you will be...
quote:
Everytime prejudice, or any type of injustice perpetrated mainly by Whites towards Blacks is brought up, I BETTER see that the reverse scenerio is brought up and universal "nobody should descriminate, be prejudice ect." lines be posted by all you folks who keep harping about inclusive gender discussions on a thread like this... Otherwise there is a GLARING contradiction and it will be BLATENTLY obvious that gender is being treated completely differently than race by you folks, for whatever reason(and I don't presume to know what that is). Race, class, and gender are all lines that oppression and exploitation fall on, and should be dealt with similarly and in some kind of consistent manner...


Apples and Oranges, OA ... Apples and Oranges.

White folks don't come up in here talking about prejudiced Black folks, they talk about RACIST Black folks and you, of all people know THERE IS NO SUCH ANIMAL AS A BLACK RACIST! Racism is prejudice [an internal belief/thought] PLUS the power to influence, either individually or systemically, tangible aspects of the victims life.

You CAN have a gender specific conversation on ending the cycle of misogamy, or even how misogamy may be at the root of male on female DV, without include including women; but any discussion regarding ending the cycle of DV, should include women.
quote:
Originally posted by Oshun Auset:
From earlier...


quote:
Originally posted by Oshun Auset:
quote:
Originally posted by EbonyRose:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Oshun Auset:

Why has the conversation strayed so far away from that subject?


The answer to that is: Khalliqua. And her sarcasm. Which admittedly, you understand (and apparently) agree with.

So why are you asking ME what happened and why what went wrong went wrong? Confused Why am I the one being chastised when I simply posted a story .. with no additional comment or addition .... but took offense at a sarcastic remark and comment directed squarely at me??? Confused

You wanna talk about shitty ..... Roll Eyes


You forgot something ER... You posted a thread entitled "Men tell Oprah why they beat the women they love"

...and your 'indepth' responseattempt at having a supposedly 'different' kind of discussion was to focus on the exact opposite subject of your own posted article? Come now...

quote:
This thread is FULL of what *he* should or should not do, what *his* duties and responsibilities should or should not be, how *his* actions should be determined, interpreted or dealt with .....

But what about HERS????


What about hers? Why did you post a thread about the exact opposite subject than you wanted to, and actually DID focus on? What was your point in posting this article? Are you trying to feign like you couldn't find one that focuessed on women or the victim on the WWW? That would only be the logical thing to do if that is what you really wanted to and did discuss and focus on... Why would you critique your own chosen article for what it didn't discuss instead of choosing an article that DID discuss her? That's weird to say the least... and is a red flag to anyone analyzing this thread... Your true motivations MUST HAVE been to be shitty... That, our your choice of post is just straight up illogical...

quote:
His blame - in no way, shape, form or fashion -absolves HER of her responsibilities for or towards herself and any children she has brought into this world. No other person – male or female – has control over a woman’s responsibility to do what is in her best self-interest. It is hers, and hers alone.

Unlike you and Ms. K., I am not willing to issue *dummy passes* to ANY .. and I do mean, ANY female ... just because her husband/boyfriend hits her. This is because I know that in her lies the strength to be the nurturer of all humanity. Women are given both the strength and the capacity to be the caretakers of the earth. We are given the duty to give birth to life itself. The inner strength of the woman – and especially the Black woman – has been the endurance of the survival of all humankind. You wanna talk about hard work?? THAT is hard work .. and it takes a lot to get it done… and done right. Juggling family, friends, a career, a home, and ourselves, is hard.

Knowing that your face should not be getting punched with a man’s fist … is NOT a difficult task. It’s not rocket science. In fact, it’s at about the Sesame Street level of comprehension compared to everything else that we have to do and take care of.

For whatever reason a woman chooses to stay in an abusive relationship - she does CHOOSE to disregard the responsibility she has to protect herself and her children, if any, from harm. Most women CAN leave … even if where they have to go is undesirable to them. They may choose not to leave. But the choice is still theirs, and one that she makes.

The issue of a woman’s responsibility to herself is a totally separate issue from the man and/or what his actions are. It has nothing to do with who started the fight or why the abuse happened. You can add in the factors of her being weak, or brainwashed, or simply ‘in love’ with her abuser as excuses as to why she chooses to stay. But the man cannot be blamed for HER actions (or the lack thereof). She is nobody’s slave or property. She is her own owner. And the responsibility of herself belongs only to her and to no one else. For as long as she shall live.


By the way, it's also very illogical to criticize others for focussing on the article's actual subject matter as you did below, considering you posted it. Why would you make the 'opennening' comment below as if people sticking to the thread subject is somehow strange and/or unwanted?

quote:
This thread is FULL of what *he* should or should not do, what *his* duties and responsibilities should or should not be, how *his* actions should be determined, interpreted or dealt with .....

But what about HERS????


AT the least you must realize the lack of logic in all of this if there was no alternative motivation... If you will admit to this illogic is an all together different matter...


Good Lord ................ ek ek ek


Okay .... I am just TOO through ........... 20 20

You win, Sis ... bow giveup bow.... if that is whatever what was supposed to have happened here!! tfro
quote:
Originally posted by Kweli4Real:
You CAN have a gender specific conversation on ending the cycle of misogamy, or even how misogamy may be at the root of male on female DV, without include including women; but any discussion regarding ending the cycle of DV, should include women.


Are you seriously writing this?!? This is nuts. What gives you the right to tell women what topics affecting them they can discuss? You are not a woman, and men are not as nearly as affected by domestic violence as are women. I mean you really have got some nerve coming in here telling women what they cannot talk about when it comes to a topic that so heavily affects them and their welfare. You have just much right in this area of discussion as you would in a discussion about motherhood. You are about as arrogant and egocentric as they come. And your audacity is what has really been disturbing to me all throughout this discussion. You have no business at all dictating to women ANYTHING pertaining to this subject. Seriously, you need to back down. You have already shown to everyone just how uninformed you are about this topic, and you don't even live by the values that you continue to stress. Man, get out of here with this. After what you told us about how you handle conflicts, you think that we are going to listen to YOU about how to end the cycle of violence. Man, please. I don't even know why you're still participating in this discussion. Your credibility is shot.

And by the way, just to let you know, mysogny is a source of violence against women. The hatred, social depreciation, objectification, and lack of respect and value of women is what motivates men to be violent towards women in the first place. So for you to tell us that we (wait a minute) CAN talk about mysogny and how it affects women, but we CAN'T talk about how domestic violence affects women when one topic is so closely related to the other, you have to be totally nuts or completely ignorant about these subjects. I'm thinking you just might be more of the latter. In any event, let me just say this again, because you obviously don't know your place here:

YOU DON'T CONTROL THIS DISCUSSION

You don't get to tell us what we can and cannot talk about. No one told you what you can't talk about. So don't tell us. You really need to come off the throne that you've put yourself on. You're looking real bad right now, and what's sad is that I'm starting to believe that unlike the brothers who said what they had to say and then bounced, you don't have ANY respect for women and how this discussion especially affects them, because you stubbornly and willfully refuse to acknowledge it, even though given the relationship that you have with your sister, who is a victim of domestic violence, you should be much more sensitive to how this topic affects women. Now, that is astonishing. And it shows very poor character and no integrity. Please take a tip from brothers like Whirling, Ddouble, and Vox who I think in this discussion knew how to maturely approach this topic and how to ultimately respect its relationship to women.
quote:
Originally posted by Kweli4Real:

Yes, I know that the abuser and the abuser alone is RESPONSIBLE for their abuse, but we all know that there are things that are likely to increase the chances of the abuser becoming violent.




So your sister should have known not to be so dayum clumsy and spill tea on the brotha? Confused
Ms. Rowe, you are have lost your ever loving mind. Eek You tell me I don't control the conversation ... by attempting to control the conversation. You attempt to tell me that I cannot tell you what to talk about ... by telling me what I can talk about.

Conflicted Much?

quote:
So your sister should have known not to be so dayum clumsy and spill tea on the brotha?


No. If she had been subjected to abuse before that day [and I suspect that she had], she should have left that bastard alone.

And if she were planning her escape, I would suggest that she avoid doing what you are doing with me ... picking, just to have something to say. Big Grin
quote:
Originally posted by Kweli4Real:

And if she were planning her escape, I would suggest that she avoid doing what you are doing with me ... picking, just to have something to say. Big Grin



I'm a bit disappointed in that statement Kweli. ANd to be quite honest, I remain quite puzzled at why you have a conniption EVERY time this issue is brought up, and the discussion gets derailed by you EVERY time. I have made multiple efforts to understand just what the problem is and have asked you to explain.

I don't understand why photos of Rihanna looking all swollen headed like Emmit Till would prompt AT THAT PARTICULAR TIME a reminder from you that women need to keep their hands to themselves, or why every story posted about a woman getting her azz kicked prompts something like "this may not be the right time, but males AND females need to be taught blah blah blah" from you. WHAT?

I don't understand why you keep saying nobody is talking about prevention when multiple posts about the warning signs have been made on multiple occasions by multiple members.

You are projecting like a mugg, seeing what you want to see INSTEAD of what's actually being said and then making smart-azz comments on multiple occasions

Finally, you have failed to make any threads about male victims of domestic violence and any barriers they may face in getting help or getting out of that situation. If it really mattered so much, you would have made a post instead of constantly hijacking female azz whipping threads.

Kweli, face it. ON this issue, you're nucking futs.
quote:
Originally posted by Kweli4Real:
Ms. Rowe, you are have lost your ever loving mind. Eek You tell me I don't control the conversation ... by attempting to control the conversation. You attempt to tell me that I cannot tell you what to talk about ... by telling me what I can talk about.

Conflicted Much?

quote:
So your sister should have known not to be so dayum clumsy and spill tea on the brotha?


No. If she had been subjected to abuse before that day [and I suspect that she had], she should have left that bastard alone.

And if she were planning her escape, I would suggest that she avoid doing what you are doing with me ... picking, just to have something to say. Big Grin


Kweli ... I'm telling you ... as a friend ... hug .... GET OUT NOW!!!!! with whatever semblance of sanity that you still have intact!! Eek 'Cause before you know it, this conversation is going to suck it right out of your head, before you even know what's happened! I am afraid for you, my friend! ek

Pleeeeassse....... Don't let this ........... ........... happen to YOU!! Big Grin
quote:
Originally posted by negrospiritual:
quote:
Originally posted by Kweli4Real:

And if she were planning her escape, I would suggest that she avoid doing what you are doing with me ... picking, just to have something to say. Big Grin



I'm a bit disappointed in that statement Kweli. ANd to be quite honest, I remain quite puzzled at why you have a conniption EVERY time this issue is brought up, and the discussion gets derailed by you EVERY time. I have made multiple efforts to understand just what the problem is and have asked you to explain.

I don't understand why photos of Rihanna looking all swollen headed like Emmit Till would prompt AT THAT PARTICULAR TIME a reminder from you that women need to keep their hands to themselves, or why every story posted about a woman getting her azz kicked prompts something like "this may not be the right time, but males AND females need to be taught blah blah blah" from you. WHAT?

I don't understand why you keep saying nobody is talking about prevention when multiple posts about the warning signs have been made on multiple occasions by multiple members.

You are projecting like a mugg, seeing what you want to see INSTEAD of what's actually being said and then making smart-azz comments on multiple occasions

Finally, you have failed to make any threads about male victims of domestic violence and any barriers they may face in getting help or getting out of that situation. If it really mattered so much, you would have made a post instead of constantly hijacking female azz whipping threads.

Kweli, face it. ON this issue, you're nucking futs.




Kweli and those that think like him, are incapable of having a discussion regarding male abuse.... so he, and others like him, have no relevancy in such a discussion and their motives regarding their posts are just as irrelevant.... Who cares what their thoughts are if it is not germane to the topic that we all feel is important... which is why I suggested they talk amongst themselves...

Incidentally, a common and very successful tactic of abusive males is to blame the victim as the cause of abuse..

To answer Rowe...

quote:
Originally posted by Rowe:
quote:
Originally posted by Khalliqa:
I've often found it curious that abusers are quite selective in who they attempt to exert control over.. sometimes its subordinates, children and the like.. but often times in cases of domestic violence like in the example you provided earlier... the abusers actions may be relationship dynamic specific.. and that's hard to pinpoint..


Good observations. I'd like to talk more about the relationship dynamic that you were talking about in your most recent response. And yes it was interesting that you emphasized that perpetrators of domestic violence are rarely violent to those outside of their domicile. So here's an interesting question: What makes a person who might not ever commit violence outside of his or her personal relationships commit violent at home and against the people closest to him or her? Some theories suggest that people who feel subjugated, inferior, or emasculated in the society, for example, might release and/or compensate for their inadequate feelings by taking it out on the people at home. Ultimtely, there are an infininte number of reasons why people commit violence and violence against loved ones.


Abusive men are often selective in their abuse because they are cowards... But cowards is too pat a description to use as well.. and not fully descriptive of a more complex problem...

An abusive male may abuse one woman and not other women who have similar personas/backgrounds and aspirations.... There really is no telling when and which male will flick off into abuse.. or further abuse... One of the reasons women get sucked into abusive relationships is through the deception of the male... Many abusive males are seen as pillars of society.. as men with character or men who would never do such a thing... and often it because of his chameleon ability to show good face makes it that much more difficult to try and pick and choose when and how a male is or may become abusive...

Such investigations are less of a focus to me than sending harsh repercussions to those who do...

Rogues in society understand might... that's what they bow down to... Which is why I say more importantly abusive men abuse women that they think they can get away with abusing.... Nothing is foolproof, but there is not enough societal pressure, fear and intimidation NOT to do so... no man really thinks twice about it unless he fears repercussions... And the repercussions must be wise.. or he could just go kill the woman (in his control or not).. An abusive male is like having a hostage... The police effort is to work to remove the hostage by showing force, surrounding the area.. THEN attempting to coerce the victim away.. but if you have a victim with stockholm syndrome law enforcement still doesn't give a you know what.. the objective is to carry out the law and deprogram the victim later...

The focus is on the criminal... and any societal ire towards the victim is the wrong direction to take... He still faces no repercussions...


If he has brainwashed her enough, if she has weak family/friends, if the laws are weak, if society generally does not give a *you know what* etc.. then he's good...

I'll repeat black men knew very well not to even look at a white woman.. and I think part of that is because they had fear of what an outcry by such a woman would do in society... men were put in check by other men.. not one.. not a few... but family members.. law enforcement.. vigilantes... the law itself.. etc.. an entire society united around setting the woman.. making clear the boundaries that men had to bow to regarding her.. and the white man was at the forefront of her protection.. making sure that so much as a whisper of fright from her would render immediate and swift retribution from all different areas of society..

White men presented a united wall of fear that made other men think twice, three times about looking at white women... So black men and women educated themselves and warned one another about such repercussions and put such things in check... Their society at large hated the act and made it clear....


Men today are often too scared, powerless... conflicted about their roles.. wait around for the abused victim to all of sudden "take power".. all sorts of things..

In a non homogeneous society.. all sorts of ills that should be communal responsibility shifts to individuals and thus weakens their ability to defend against a society ill...


I disagree with one point... violence is absolutely necessary to stop an abuser.. it is definitely a significant part of sending the message that abuse will not be tolerated... there just isn't enough of a threat in society to make him stop.. There needs to be great societal pressure and the natural intimidation that other men bring to a situation is very key in making it unacceptable in society... Bullies don't typically respond to counseling.. For instance, which is why despite community efforts to educate our children how to handle police.. there is still police brutality.. there is still racism.. individual talks are okay.. but to move towards ridding it will take a more concerted effort... There would have to be a mass effort on the part of society to condemn abuse and there be a willingness to break the law, risk hurting the woman, beating the drumbeat of intolerance for the act and forcing law to act harshly, etc.. all sorts of things to get the message that it is unacceptable..

Men nor many women these days are THAT passionate about condemning THE ABUSER.. they are more passionate and disgusted with abused victim not handling her exit strategy from the abuse right..
quote:
Originally posted by EbonyRose:

quote:
Originally posted by Kweli4Real:
Ms. Rowe, you are have lost your ever loving mind. Eek You tell me I don't control the conversation ... by attempting to control the conversation. You attempt to tell me that I cannot tell you what to talk about ... by telling me what I can talk about.

Conflicted Much?

quote:
So your sister should have known not to be so dayum clumsy and spill tea on the brotha?


No. If she had been subjected to abuse before that day [and I suspect that she had], she should have left that bastard alone.

And if she were planning her escape, I would suggest that she avoid doing what you are doing with me ... picking, just to have something to say. Big Grin


Kweli ... I'm telling you ... as a friend ... hug .... GET OUT NOW!!!!! with whatever semblance of sanity that you still have intact!! Eek 'Cause before you know it, this conversation is going to suck it right out of your head, before you even know what's happened! I am afraid for you, my friend! ek

Pleeeeassse....... Don't let this ........... ........... happen to YOU!! Big Grin



well, you may be acting as a "friend" at the moment because you are in agreement with Kweli's position on this particular issue, but I respect Kweli as a brother, a father, and as an intellectual. If that were not true, i wouldn't bother to pursue the issue in the first place. Despite your flair for the dramatic, ER, I highly doubt that a little heated back and forth discussion among passionate brothas and sistas is going to "suck the sanity" out of his head Roll Eyes Roll Eyes Roll Eyes


sheesh
quote:
Originally posted by Khalliqa:

In a non homogeneous society.. all sorts of ills that should be communal responsibility shifts to individuals and thus weakens their ability to defend against a society ill...



This kernel is great food for thought...
But don't most topic stray a bit from the original threadstarter?

I think, except in the most extreme cases, there are elements that are consistent in these types of relationships that provide fodder for abuse.

I am not skilled in ministering to abused men - or women, and won't own or have anyone suggest to me that I should.

This by no means that I wink at abuse, because I detest it in any form.

Moreover, I believe that the statistics do not lie; it's the men who are chief in these transgressions.

My personal approach to this (abuse) matter is to talk to men about what healthy relationships should look like. You all really don't discuss that too much, even outside of these heated topics.

If I had to guess, it's because people are selfish, and even people in our age groups, who should know, and promote good and righteous behavior amongst the genders - don't. I believe that it's because we've gotten into this pathology of "accept me as I am", which is why so many relationships are broken, so many men are uncommitted, and so many non-white women are getting dumped and abandoned by their men.

Abuse against women, by men - is abominable. It would be foolish to say that they ALL brought it on themselves. I think that, with love, you just take a chance, and use the best judgment you have at the time - or from what little of the "game" of healthy relationships and boundaries - you actually know.

Why my sister and her husband put up with each other's shit for so long is debatable. If it was because of LOVE - I find that unacceptable.

At no time, did I ever tell my sister that she should have charged my BIL to the game 10 years ago, EVEN THOUGH I BELIEVE SHE SHOULD HAVE. Telling someone that - this far in the game is unedifying and unkind; to say the least.

Rihanna is a loud-mouthed, irreverent, spoiled, child whose FOA (family of origin) was one where verbal and physical contention was not recognized to be unhealthy and unacceptable.

Chris Brown's FOA was very much the same.

Sometimes toxic people with no barometer find each other, and sometimes the examples in their FOA are much less vivid, and often subtle. Maybe the passive idea of "giving people a chance to do better", or not "rushing to judgment" are BAD ideas given the spiritual and emotional decay that permeates families and communities, especially OUR communities.

Desperation often leads to ruination. That's another topic altogether.

Not that you're even addressing me or give a crap about my POV, but I'd like to tell say to Sister Rowe, NS, and K that I ain't hatin' on what you all are trying to relay. It makes sense to me.

The burdens that I bear in my personal ministry put me on another side of the equation. People need to learn how to abide alone - and set stricter boundaries.
I'm not trying to open old wounds, but I heard an interview on NPR just a few moments ago that seems to explode the commonly held male-perpetrator/female-victim belief. A recent study [and more than 200 other studies, including one from the CDC (according to the author)] seem to indicate it is not as simple or intuitive as we would suspect.

quote:
The most recent large-scale study of domestic violence was conducted by Harvard researchers and published in 2007 in the American Journal of Public Health. The study, which surveyed 11,000 men and women, found that, according to both men's and women's accounts, 50 percent of the violence in their relationships was reciprocal (involving both parties). In those cases, the women were more likely to have been the first to strike. Moreover, when the violence was one-sided, both women and men said that women were the perpetrators about 70 percent of the time.
http://www.baltimoresun.com/ne...ul16,0,5844465.story
quote:
Originally posted by Kweli4Real:
I'm not trying to open old wounds, but I heard an interview on NPR just a few moments ago that seems to explode the commonly held male-perpetrator/female-victim belief. A recent study [and more than 200 other studies, including one from the CDC (according to the author)] seem to indicate it is not as simple or intuitive as we would suspect.

quote:
The most recent large-scale study of domestic violence was conducted by Harvard researchers and published in 2007 in the American Journal of Public Health. The study, which surveyed 11,000 men and women, found that, according to both men's and women's accounts, 50 percent of the violence in their relationships was reciprocal (involving both parties). In those cases, the women were more likely to have been the first to strike. Moreover, when the violence was one-sided, both women and men said that women were the perpetrators about 70 percent of the time.
http://www.baltimoresun.com/ne...ul16,0,5844465.story


WOW!!!!
I knew there were a few women (I would have guessed 5%) that struck 1st, but 70%!!!
quote:
Originally posted by ocatchings:
quote:
Originally posted by Kweli4Real:
I'm not trying to open old wounds, but I heard an interview on NPR just a few moments ago that seems to explode the commonly held male-perpetrator/female-victim belief. A recent study [and more than 200 other studies, including one from the CDC (according to the author)] seem to indicate it is not as simple or intuitive as we would suspect.

quote:
The most recent large-scale study of domestic violence was conducted by Harvard researchers and published in 2007 in the American Journal of Public Health. The study, which surveyed 11,000 men and women, found that, according to both men's and women's accounts, 50 percent of the violence in their relationships was reciprocal (involving both parties). In those cases, the women were more likely to have been the first to strike. Moreover, when the violence was one-sided, both women and men said that women were the perpetrators about 70 percent of the time.
http://www.baltimoresun.com/ne...ul16,0,5844465.story


WOW!!!!
I knew there were a few women (I would have guessed 5%) that struck 1st, but 70%!!!


Perhaps that number is as high as it is as a result of the indoctrinated lessons that men are not supposed to hit women (under any circumstances). Feeling that they won't receive (fair and equal) retaliation, they hit (sometimes mistakenly) without the fear of being hit back. 19
quote:
Originally posted by EbonyRose:
quote:
Originally posted by ocatchings:
quote:
Originally posted by Kweli4Real:
I'm not trying to open old wounds, but I heard an interview on NPR just a few moments ago that seems to explode the commonly held male-perpetrator/female-victim belief. A recent study [and more than 200 other studies, including one from the CDC (according to the author)] seem to indicate it is not as simple or intuitive as we would suspect.

quote:
The most recent large-scale study of domestic violence was conducted by Harvard researchers and published in 2007 in the American Journal of Public Health. The study, which surveyed 11,000 men and women, found that, according to both men's and women's accounts, 50 percent of the violence in their relationships was reciprocal (involving both parties). In those cases, the women were more likely to have been the first to strike. Moreover, when the violence was one-sided, both women and men said that women were the perpetrators about 70 percent of the time.
http://www.baltimoresun.com/ne...ul16,0,5844465.story


WOW!!!!
I knew there were a few women (I would have guessed 5%) that struck 1st, but 70%!!!


Perhaps that number is as high as it is as a result of the indoctrinated lessons that men are not supposed to hit women (under any circumstances). Feeling that they won't receive (fair and equal) retaliation, they hit (sometimes mistakenly) without the fear of being hit back. 19


Hence the reason why you see a woman throw a drink in a man's face (especially to those men they don't even know if they're crazy or not) both in real life, and on TV, and not face any retaliation or consequences, because of having no fear of future retaliation. It's socially acceptable.

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