Rowe,

You deleted the phrase "cycle of abuse" from one of your earlier posts, and that phrase is an important consideration on which Kweli based at least some of his response to you (e.g. "The fact that males inflict the majority of the abuse is completely beside the point in a discussion purposed with ending the cycle of abuse.").

I don't think that mentioning the reality of a cycle of abuse that women AND men participate in is derailing the thread or dismissing the horror of male-on-female domestic violence, especially in AA urban communities (for the purposes of this thread, that is where my heart is). While female-on-male violence is not as common as male-on-female, female-on-female violence is a huge concern (boys see this, too, and think "so that's how she likes to roll", which goes to Kweli's playground example).

Teaching our children that we ALL have a responsibility to treat each other respectfully is only helping the situation. One benefit is that girls grow up into women who know what to expect from their men because they've *personally* acted respect/kindness out in their friendships. That is only going to make them stronger in recognizing when a boy-grown-up-into-a-man hasn't learned how to treat women or others respectfully.

I didn't read Kweli's response as a "men v. women" but rather a "men and women". That is the answer to breaking the "cycle" and, at least in part, it was the "cycle" that he was responding to.


He certainly wasn't taking away from the Oprah article... Confused
quote:
Originally posted by shulamite:
I didn't read Kweli's response as a "men v. women" but rather a "men and women". That is the answer to breaking the "cycle" and, at least in part, it was the "cycle" that he was responding to.


Kweli has already made this point well enough on his own, and that point has long since been addressed. So we're dealing with this question now

quote:
Orginally posted by Khalliqa:
Do you think that sometimes the discussion of the more prevalent abuse of women can be discussed on its own merits before discussing other variations with less occurrence?
quote:
I'm not even going to read through the rest of this thread.


Instead I think that you should read the responses so that you might get a more accurate picture of what's happening in this discussion.

quote:
I read Ms. K's "Wow" comment followed be Ms. Rowe's complete mischaracterization of what I wrote. I'm done. I will allow you to make men the exclusive demon and women the exclusive victim of abuse. Which is really, really sad because I doubt there is a person on board who is more of an advocate for non-violence than me.


I think you are the one who has completely mischaracterized the purpose of this thread and its participants. Your view of this discussion as an indictment of men in general is totally inaccurate. And it's unfortunate that we've had to waste time, which chould have been spent discussing diverse solutions, on defending unwarranted accusations against the motives of people in this thread. What's happened in this discussion is a perfect example of how so many good discussions in AA.org have been derailed.

I know that discussing physical abuse is uncomfortable, and I suppose it might be uncomfortable for men to discuss, since the perpetrators of abuse and violence tend to be men. But women responders should not have to edit their discussions about violence and abuse against women in order to accommodate men who may read subject matter that makes uncomfortable. In the future, the issues discussed in this thread are going to be raised again, and it will be just as sad for women if they feel as if they do not have a place in which to talk about aspects of this topic that are specific to them and their experiences.
quote:
Originally posted by Khalliqa:
Does this mean you think that men are bad?
We do not think that men are naturally violent and we don't think that men are bad, however we do think all men have roles and responsibilities in ending violence against women. The majority of men are not physically violent. Researchers tell us many past cultures had little or no violence.At the same time, we do think that some men have learned to express their anger or insecurity through violence. Far too many men have come to believe that violence against a woman, child or another man is an acceptable way to control another person, especially an intimate partner.

By remaining silent about these things, we allow other men to poison our work, schools and homes.

The good news is that more and more men and boys want to make a difference. Caring men are tired of the sexism that hurts the women around them. Caring men are also concerned with the impact of this violence on the lives of men and boys.



These were very good points and suggestions.
quote:
Originally posted by Vox:
quote:
Originally posted by Khalliqa:
quote:
Originally posted by Vox:
Dammit. It's early in the morning, forgive me for not catching on. I didn't realize I was walking into a reference to a disagreement from an old thread.

I wish you would stop doing that. People on this site need to quit bringing old beef into new threads. What is up with that?


What are you talking about??? Confused

There is no reference to another thread... There is a tongue in cheek response to the post though regarding a mentality that is prevalent in our communities regarding abused women and why they stay in abusive relationships..
So you were being sarcastic about a mentality that's out there in the world, without reference to anything you've ever interpreted anyone on this site as saying that may mirror that mentality. Gotcha. Roll Eyes


One of the MAIN reasons for me posting this story is because nowhere in it was there even a HINT of blaming the women for being victims of their abuse. It was a story that WHOLLY and COMPLETELY placed the blame exactly where it belonged ... on the abuser.

It's a different kind of story than what is usually posted on this subject, and I thought that maybe we could have had a different kind of discussion about it.

Of course, that wasn't possible because true-to-form, Khalliqua, took it upon herself to sarcastically (as usual and always Roll Eyes) insinuate into the discussion the 'blame/responsibility of the female' aspect … which was not, nor was supposed to be, there in the first place. And then (again as usual and always) felt that once she opened the door, she should be the only one with the authority to be able to walk through it ... unless, of course, you TOTALLY and COMPLETELY unquestioningly agree with her position.

She was “shocked” that I would post such a story. But there is nothing *shocking* about the fact that she sent this thread down the same sad, negative, derogatory path of accusation and blame that she always does. Because she only knows one way to have this conversation.

And she will have it whether the subject matter actually supports it ... or not. Roll Eyes
quote:
Originally posted by Rowe:
quote:
Originally posted by Khalliqa:
Do you think that sometimes the discussion of the more prevalent abuse of women can be discussed on its own merits before discussing other variations with less occurrence?


And see, this is why the cycle of abuse continues, because some of us want to stay in denial, and we refuse to face the realities of abuse. The majority of the world's abuse and violence is perpetuated by men. That is a reality, and it's a reality that has to be addressed. We can't allow ourselves to get caught up in these defensive and distracting arguments. Of course, it should go without saying that no one should commit violence against anyone. But the truth of the matter is violence IS being committed, and most of it is being committed by men. Ok so now that we know that, let's go on to step 2, stop dancing around the issue, and deal with it.


Yes, Ms. Rowe ... let's deal with the real issues here.

The biggest problem with the lack of understanding of abuse is the difference between "blame" and "responsibility". And until we learn to get a handle on the difference between the two, it's unlikely that anything is going to be resolved.

NO woman is to blame for a man abusing her. Not ever. Yet EVERY woman is responsible for the well-being of herself and her children. Always. And without question.

This thread is FULL of what *he* should or should not do, what *his* duties and responsibilities should or should not be, how *his* actions should be determined, interpreted or dealt with .....

But what about HERS????

His blame - in no way, shape, form or fashion -absolves HER of her responsibilities for or towards herself and any children she has brought into this world. No other person – male or female – has control over a woman’s responsibility to do what is in her best self-interest. It is hers, and hers alone.

Unlike you and Ms. K., I am not willing to issue *dummy passes* to ANY .. and I do mean, ANY female ... just because her husband/boyfriend hits her. This is because I know that in her lies the strength to be the nurturer of all humanity. Women are given both the strength and the capacity to be the caretakers of the earth. We are given the duty to give birth to life itself. The inner strength of the woman – and especially the Black woman – has been the endurance of the survival of all humankind. You wanna talk about hard work?? THAT is hard work .. and it takes a lot to get it done… and done right. Juggling family, friends, a career, a home, and ourselves, is hard.

Knowing that your face should not be getting punched with a man’s fist … is NOT a difficult task. It’s not rocket science. In fact, it’s at about the Sesame Street level of comprehension compared to everything else that we have to do and take care of.

For whatever reason a woman chooses to stay in an abusive relationship - she does CHOOSE to disregard the responsibility she has to protect herself and her children, if any, from harm. Most women CAN leave … even if where they have to go is undesirable to them. They may choose not to leave. But the choice is still theirs, and one that she makes.

The issue of a woman’s responsibility to herself is a totally separate issue from the man and/or what his actions are. It has nothing to do with who started the fight or why the abuse happened. You can add in the factors of her being weak, or brainwashed, or simply ‘in love’ with her abuser as excuses as to why she chooses to stay. But the man cannot be blamed for HER actions (or the lack thereof). She is nobody’s slave or property. She is her own owner. And the responsibility of herself belongs only to her and to no one else. For as long as she shall live.
quote:
Originally posted by EbonyRose:
The biggest problem with the lack of understanding of abuse is the difference between "blame" and "responsibility". And until we learn to get a handle on the difference between the two, it's unlikely that anything is going to be resolved.


Well said.


quote:
For whatever reason a woman chooses to stay in an abusive relationship - she does CHOOSE to disregard the responsibility she has to protect herself and her children, if any, from harm. Most women CAN leave … even if where they have to go is undesirable to them. They may choose not to leave. But the choice is still theirs, and one that she makes.


From situations I've observed, I've had to think about this and revise my opinion. Although there are some women who need to navigate the timing of "leaving" very, very carefully if they want remain alive, if they are with a man who's *that* intent on killing them outside of the home, he will do it eventually anyway inside the home. She's better off getting out of dodge immediately and never looking back.
quote:
Originally posted by ER:

Knowing that your face should not be getting punched with a man’s fist … is NOT a difficult task. It’s not rocket science. In fact, it’s at about the Sesame Street level of comprehension compared to everything else that we have to do and take care of.


Any person who implies that women are too stupid to know that they should not be beat, needs to move out of theory... and spend time at shelters with victims of abuse in all walks of life...

If one is still insensitively judgmental after that then their comments shouldn't be taken seriously anymore...
quote:
Originally posted by Rowe:
quote:
Originally posted by Khalliqa:
Does this mean you think that men are bad?
We do not think that men are naturally violent and we don't think that men are bad, however we do think all men have roles and responsibilities in ending violence against women. The majority of men are not physically violent. Researchers tell us many past cultures had little or no violence.At the same time, we do think that some men have learned to express their anger or insecurity through violence. Far too many men have come to believe that violence against a woman, child or another man is an acceptable way to control another person, especially an intimate partner.

By remaining silent about these things, we allow other men to poison our work, schools and homes.

The good news is that more and more men and boys want to make a difference. Caring men are tired of the sexism that hurts the women around them. Caring men are also concerned with the impact of this violence on the lives of men and boys.



These were very good points and suggestions.


I agree.. I took it from a men's group that is dedicated to stopping abuse, especially focused on the role that men can play... Smile

http://www.whiteribbon.ca/about_us/ But they are a Canadian based group.. I couldn't find anything comparable in America .. believe it or not...
quote:
Originally posted by shulamite:
Rowe,

You deleted the phrase "cycle of abuse" from one of your earlier posts, and that phrase is an important consideration on which Kweli based at least some of his response to you (e.g. "The fact that males inflict the majority of the abuse is completely beside the point in a discussion purposed with ending the cycle of abuse.").

I don't think that mentioning the reality of a cycle of abuse that women AND men participate in is derailing the thread or dismissing the horror of male-on-female domestic violence, especially in AA urban communities (for the purposes of this thread, that is where my heart is). While female-on-male violence is not as common as male-on-female, female-on-female violence is a huge concern (boys see this, too, and think "so that's how she likes to roll", which goes to Kweli's playground example).

Teaching our children that we ALL have a responsibility to treat each other respectfully is only helping the situation. One benefit is that girls grow up into women who know what to expect from their men because they've *personally* acted respect/kindness out in their friendships. That is only going to make them stronger in recognizing when a boy-grown-up-into-a-man hasn't learned how to treat women or others respectfully.

I didn't read Kweli's response as a "men v. women" but rather a "men and women". That is the answer to breaking the "cycle" and, at least in part, it was the "cycle" that he was responding to.


He certainly wasn't taking away from the Oprah article... Confused


Thank-you ... You have restored my faith in my ability to communicate in written form.

quote:
Kweli this seems very important to you and i say that because you mention it nearly every time we get into a discussion about domestic violence. I'm genuinely interested in why you view it as beside the point?


I think it is more accurate to say that I raise this point in every discussion where men are cast as exclusive abusers AND women are cast as exclusively victims. Notice I had not commented on this thread until after this, i.e., the gender specific prohibition, was done.

So I guess any derailment of the thread does not lie at my feet; but rather, at those who see ending "the cycle of abuse" would only get them 70%-80% of the way.

But maybe that's good enough for them.

And Ms. K., I'll just say that your "Racism" analogy was not missed on me. I just think it is mis-applied ... THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS "BLACK" RACISM. Black prejudice ... yes; but Black folks, collectively, lack the power to practicee racism, which includes the ability to negatively and systemically impact non-Black folks' lives.
quote:
Originally posted by Kweli4Real:
quote:
Originally posted by shulamite:
Rowe,

You deleted the phrase "cycle of abuse" from one of your earlier posts, and that phrase is an important consideration on which Kweli based at least some of his response to you
(e.g. "The fact that males inflict the majority of the abuse is completely beside the point in a discussion purposed with ending the cycle of abuse."). ....


Thank-you ... You have restored my faith in my ability to communicate in written form.


Kweli, if you are going to co-sign shulamite.. please check the accuracy of her statements.. I'm not sure if she's senile or purposely doing it, but for some reason she continuously posts false information that can easily be verified..

But here is Rowe's first post:

quote:
Originally posted by Rowe:
quote:

"They feel like you love them, and when you get close enough to them, you're able to critique them and criticize them in a way that they feel like, 'He loves me, so I need to change this. How do we end the cycle of abuse?




We end the cycle of abuse by teaching our children, and perhaps boys in particular, positve ways to express their emotions.


quote:
And Ms. K., I'll just say that your "Racism" analogy was not missed on me. I just think it is mis-applied ... THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS "BLACK" RACISM. Black prejudice ... yes; but Black folks, collectively, lack the power to practicee racism, which includes the ability to negatively and systemically impact non-Black folks' lives.


If white against black racism (or prejudice) were more prevalent than what is perceived as black against white racism (or prejudice), could the former ever be discussed without discussing the lattter?


Also should we also discuss animal against human violence and abuse? What about parental child abuse? What about government abuse? Do we need to discuss all of these things all at once..?

quote:
Notice I had not commented on this thread until after this, i.e., the gender specific prohibition, was done.


Kweli, the focus of Oprah's show was on male abuse.. the article and show narrowly focuses on this prevalent form of abuse...

This is the opening statement:

"Every day, three women die as result of abuse -- that's nearly 1,100 killed every year. "That number might not mean anything to you...unless the woman was your mother, your sister, your daughter," Oprah Winfrey says. Young men who admit to hitting, kicking, choking and even wanting to kill the women they claim to love are opening up to Winfrey and giving an unprecedented look inside the minds of abusers.
"


Should we ignore the focus of the article? If so, why?

Did anyone here say ALL men are violent.. and were you able to review the comments on the link from the male organization that I posted ? That might help...


To the points in the article.. Do you have any insight or comments specifically about the article?

Thanks..
quote:
Originally posted by Kweli4Real:
Okay ... whatever Roll Eyes


Your inability to acknowledge your false claim is noted...

But since you've stated that male violence is a concern of yours and this article is speaking of male violence.. I'm sure your comments on the points the article makes would be a welcome addition to the dialogue..

thanks...
quote:
Originally posted by Rowe:
We end the cycle of abuse by teaching our children, and perhaps boys in particular, positve ways to express their emotions.....

What needs to happen is that we need to educate our sons through words, and more importantly by deeds and example, about more balanced and healthy ways to be men. We need to tell and SHOW our sons that it is OK and more than enough to simply say to someone that I feel disappointed. I feel sadness. I feel grief. We don't want our sons to say to others, "You made me feel disappointed", because then, we teach them to hold others accountable for their feelings. We need to teach our sons about how to be accountable for their own actions, because no one can make you do or say anything. You make choices, and every choice that you make has a consequence.

.....Ultimately, our society needs to adopt a completely different conception of masculinity. We need to tell our sons that they do not have power, control, and possession of womens' minds, bodies, and identities, even when they are married to women. Marrying a woman does not mean that you now own her. Men need to get that out of their heads, and quick. When you marry someone, their love is a reward for your committment, respect, and love. And you don't earn this reward by consistently exerting force or control in order to "keep a woman in line." You earn (and keep) a woman's love by consistently treating her with love and respect.


YES! Absolutely Beautiful, Lady!

tfro

"Wisdom Is A Woman Applauding!"
quote:
Although there are some women who need to navigate the timing of "leaving" very, very carefully if they want remain alive, if they are with a man who's *that* intent on killing them outside of the home, he will do it eventually anyway inside the home. She's better off getting out of dodge immediately and never looking back.


Good point. And I have never understood why a woman would stay with a violent man. I have asked all my female friends about this behavior and I have yet to hear a definitive answer. In fact, last night, a female friend of mine and I were talking about this very subject. She told me a story about a close female friend. Brother man was whipping her ass (her friend) like clockwork. My friend chastised and question her as to why she allowed this abuse. She told her friend, "Why would you want a man that kicks your ass gurl?" Her friend looked at her with a blank facial expression and finally responded by saying, "Well....I don't want no weak ass punk." Conclusion: A man that does not beat her ass is suspect of being a weak ass punk. And to take this lunacy to the next level, I recall watching a talk show years ago about battered women. When one woman was confronted with the reality and consequences of staying with a man who continually physically abused her, she respond by saying (folks, I’m not lying nor exaggerating –she actually said this): “Uhhhh……well…..how will I know he loves me if he doesn’t beat me?” The talk show host and audience were stunned into complete silence. Go figure....
=> Xeon,

What you describe is truly sad. It would seem that these types of women believe that they have no choices in life. Frown

And chastizing them or questioning them [more than once] about their choice does not help ... it moves one into the "Blaming the victim" category.

All I can see that can be done is be there to support the person, which may take the form of listening to them when they want to talk or opening your door [and having a plan] when they appear with bags in hand.
quote:
Originally posted by Kweli4Real:
=> Xeon,

What you describe is truly sad. It would seem that these types of women believe that they have no choices in life. Frown

And chastizing them or questioning them [more than once] about their choice does not help ... it moves one into the "Blaming the victim" category.

All I can see that can be done is be there to support the person, which may take the form of listening to them when they want to talk or opening your door [and having a plan] when they appear with bags in hand.


Does the article discuss mischaracterized sad abuse loving women?? or is this the only thing you're willing to dialogue about...

td6
quote:
Originally posted by EbonyRose:
The issue of a woman’s responsibility to herself is a totally separate issue from the man and/or what his actions are. It has nothing to do with who started the fight or why the abuse happened. You can add in the factors of her being weak, or brainwashed, or simply ‘in love’ with her abuser as excuses as to why she chooses to stay. But the man cannot be blamed for HER actions (or the lack thereof).


Ok first of all, in these situations, one cannot assume that because a woman is in a domestic violence situation that she has always been in that situation or she has not made attempts to leave. Removing yourself from an abuser is not a matter of simply walking out the door and waving goodbye. Often times, a woman makes many attempts to remove herself from the situation, and she is pursued by her abuser. That is why it is important to inform ourselves about the experiences of abused women so that we don't rush to judgement about what is really going on.

In addition, I think both people involved in these situations require counseling. And ideally, while the victim makes plans to SAFELY remove herself from the situation, the abuser should seek counseling so that he won't abuse again. Anyway, none of these points, though passionately made, have anything to do with the fact that violence and violence against women and innocents should not happen, period. A woman or an innocent should not have to make a "choice" whether or not to endure abuse. That is ridiculous. And the fact that women and children must make such decisions is a problem worth discussing all by itself. Why do think we are sitting here discussing ways to stop violence and cycles of abuse?

Sister Khalliqa, earlier in the discussion, made an important comparision in which she compared the cycle of abuse and mistreatment in racism to the cycle of abuse in domestic violence.Using her comparision, your argument would be tantamount to telling African Americans that they have a "choice" whether or not to endure racism and injustice in America, rather than simply eliminating the source of the problem, which is racism. In order to end the cycle of mistreatment once and for all, the wise thing to do is not to tell the victims of mistreatment about "choices", but instead to hold racists accountable for mistreating humanity, because ultimately, it's not the victims of mistreatment who have the problem. It is the abuser who has the problem. So I don't want to hear anything about some choices. We choose peace. We choose love. And we've already chosen responsibility - That is why WE don't abuse people. So I want people who think they can go around abusing and mistreating people at will and for stupid or socially-conditioned reasons to be held accountable for their choices.
quote:
Originally posted by Khalliqa:
Does the article discuss mischaracterized sad abuse loving women?? or is this the only thing you're willing to dialogue about...

td6


What I find really disturbing is just how ignorant and uninformed people are about domestic violence and the experiences of its victims. After reading some of these responses, I'm not as surprised about what the radio personality, who I spoke about earlier, had said about the Chris Brown and Rhianna story. The general attitude seems to take for granted that violence and violence against women and innocents is expected. Therefore, rather than holding victimizers accountable and focusing on the wrong choices of victimizers, the focus is on pathologizing the victims and finding out what is "wrong" with the victim for "letting" someone victimize him or her, which is about as backward as can be. I am totally astonished by people's thinking about this. I have no idea what people are thinking these days.

In my perception, instead of pathologizing the victim. We should be trying to discover the sources of the problem with the victimizer, because victimizers rarely victimize once. They victimize anyone, and it doesn't necessarily have to be someone who is insecure, lacks confidence, doesn't wear the right perfume, or whatever ridiculous reason. So let me state this again:

Violence, and violence against women, in particular, despite Kweli's failure to acknowledge it, IS worth discussing, because violence and violence against women is about exerting POWER over someone is more vulnerable than the abuser. And the reason why in most domestic violence cases women tend to be victims should be obvious to almost anyone. It's certainly NOT because women want to be abused or women "let" men abuse them. It is because some men have developed (through observation or some other means) a propensity for misusing their physical strength to exert power and control over people who are vulnerable. Another reason why women tend to be victims of abuse, which was discussed earlier, is some men have not learned healthy and constructive ways to release negative feelings and emotions. And there is absolutely nothing wrong with discussing this. It is aspect of violence that needs to be discussed, especially with youth, teenagers, etc. The more we talk about these issues, the more educated we will be about people's life experiences. And from these experiences, we too can learn how to avoid becoming victims and victimizers.
Now, I have a question, and this might be uncomfortable to discuss, but have any of you sisters ever been in a domestic violence situation or could have been had you not taken early steps to remove yourself from the situation? I'm asking this question in order to show readers that being a victim of abuse can happen to anyone. You don't have to be "dumb", "insecure", "lazy", "big teethed" or whatever to find yourself in such a situation.

Also, what elements in our society might be promoting violence and violence against women? Does the church and other religious systems of thought promote or suggest the inferiority of women in relationship to men? Are we subconsciously learning that

Vulnerability = Inferiority

Are we learning that if people are disadvantaged or are in a less powerful position than we are (E.g., women, minorities, international communities, etc.), then this gives us (the advantaged and the more powerful) a right to abuse, mistreat, exploit, and take advantage of them? How far is too far in a quest for power and possession? What are children, particularly boys of all races, learning through parenting, general socialization, and gender socialization about how to relate to women and the vulnerable?
quote:
Does the article discuss mischaracterized sad abuse loving women?? or is this the only thing you're willing to dialogue about...


What now? Confused

Do you not find women who believe that they have no choice but to submit to abuse a sad situation?

Did I some how miss the mark when I cautioned that chastizing or questioning [more than once] these women that find themselves in these situation to be an example of blaming the victim?

Are should I have limited my comment to: "Yeah, those damned evil assed abusive men ... they abuse women and they need to be stopped"?
quote:
Originally posted by Xeon:
quote:
Although there are some women who need to navigate the timing of "leaving" very, very carefully if they want remain alive, if they are with a man who's *that* intent on killing them outside of the home, he will do it eventually anyway inside the home. She's better off getting out of dodge immediately and never looking back.


Good point. And I have never understood why a woman would stay with a violent man. I have asked all my female friends about this behavior and I have yet to hear a definitive answer.


I'll give you one ....

It's Love.

Unfortunately, for many (women especially) *love* is like Kryptonite! Eek It can be all-encompassing ... debilitating ... mind-altering .... blinding, even.

For the love of a man, women can and will take a beat down ... and rationalize away the reality that it was what it is. Their hearts tell them they don't want to go - they don't want to leave this man and not have him as a partner in their lives ... and they listen. They back it up with the unreasonable (delusional 19) wish/hope/faith that that will be the last time it happens. When it's not, the whole cycle goes around one mo' again. sck

Now, granted love can also bring a big, strong, Shaq-sized man down to his knees, too! Eek So, I'm not trying to make light of it ... or make it seem like it's all that easy to deal and/or negotiate with. However, due to the fact that it is an emotion-based thing ... and women are emotional creatures .... it can truly wreck havoc on the female psyche. Believe that.

And to love and be loved ... is at the TOP of the female psyche. You can believe that, too. Smile

My advice to sistas would be: Love may be our Kryptonite ... but it's NOT cyanide! Eek It will not kill you to let it go. Hurt like hell, maybe ... well, yeah!! But it's wholly survivable!! Uproot a bad seed from your life as soon as you see it's not bearing fruit! You get too many seeds in the bag to only plant one and watch it turn into a (woman-eating) monster weed right before your eyes! Eek
quote:
Originally posted by Kweli4Real:

should I have limited my comment to: "Yeah, those damned evil assed abusive men ... they abuse women and they need to be stopped"?


No.. but I think you would be more comfortable discussing this with someone who shares your disgust for women who don't act right when abused... ER and shulamite are good candidates... I am focused on something entirely different... I appreciate your responding.. but as it relates to the discussion of abuse, I really regret posting something to you at all...


Take care...
quote:
Originally posted by Rowe:
Now, I have a question, and this might be uncomfortable to discuss, but have any of you sisters ever been in a domestic violence situation or could have been had you not taken early steps to remove yourself from the situation? I'm asking this question in order to show readers that being a victim of abuse can happen to anyone. You don't have to be "dumb", "insecure", "lazy", "big teethed" or whatever to find yourself in such a situation.

Also, what elements in our society might be promoting violence and violence against women? Does the church and other religious systems of thought promote or suggest the inferiority of women in relationship to men? Are we subconsciously learning that

Vulnerability = Inferiority

Are we learning that if people are disadvantaged or are in a less powerful position than we are (E.g., women, minorities, international communities, etc.), then this gives us (the advantaged and the more powerful) a right to abuse, mistreat, exploit, and take advantage of them? How far is too far in a quest for power and possession? What are children, particularly boys of all races, learning through parenting, general socialization, and gender socialization about how to relate to women and the vulnerable?


That's an interesting point.. but I don't think vulnerability equals inferiority..

I can't rate it that way... Like "love"... to be in love often renders one vulnerable and susceptible to pain.. but I do not see it as inferior to a loveless existence...

Biologically women will always be vulnerable to men unless our physiology changes en masse very quickly...

The men in the article expressed much about control.. I do believe some men do not know how to handle life.. some men drink/do drugs/or commit suicide and harm themselves... some men harm others... some men cope through the escapism of religion and or entertainment..

and this makes me wonder whether:

1. Other societal models (past or present) produce abuse of women;
2. There are enough men to mentor and train/rear younger men regarding how to treat women, how to properly direct their emotions and how to cope with lack of control...

I don't mind men having control.. I think all humans should have some control over their lives and perhaps even others if they have earned leadership.. there is a fine line between having control in their lives.. and being controlling... The men in the article speak a lot about losing control over their emotions...

I appreciate your input in this... and your clear insight... this is one subject that is rarely handled with the sensitivity and knowledge of people that it deserves.. the community either helps or hurts these type of situations.. and that makes it even more painful subject to discuss when it goes awry...
quote:
No.. but I think you would be more comfortable discussing this with someone who shares your disgust for women who don't act right when abused...


Ms. K ... histronics aside, 17 are you talking about? Disgust for women who don't act right? That's some unsupportable crazy talk, right there. You clearly are too close to this topic to understand where I am coming from, which can be summarized as:

1) violence is wrong, regardless of the sex of the perpetrator;
2) while no one is responsible for what others do to them, self-preservation is the first law of nature, and it is the responsibility of those that love the abused to remind them of that law and to intervene, if able; and
3) reminding the abused of the above referenced law is not akin to blaming the abused for the abuse.

quote:
I don't mind men having control.. I think all humans should have some control over their lives and perhaps even others if they have earned leadership.. there is a fine line between having control in their lives.. and being controlling


I don't understand this ... why would any adult want someone/anyone to have control over them. Or, is it that I don't understand what you mean by control.

Okay, I can't stop myself ... allowing someone to control you/have control over you, invites abuse.

Wouldn't it be far better, in a leader/follower situation, for the leader to set a direction and the follower to be free to chose to follow?
quote:
Originally posted by Khalliqa:
quote:
Originally posted by Kweli4Real:

should I have limited my comment to: "Yeah, those damned evil assed abusive men ... they abuse women and they need to be stopped"?


No.. but I think you would be more comfortable discussing this with someone who shares your disgust for women who don't act right when abused... ER and shulamite are good candidates... I am focused on something entirely different...


quote:
Originally posted by Kweli4Real:
violence is wrong, regardless of the sex of the perpetrator


Everyone knows this, but the problem is, men (who are the majority of the world's perpetrators of violence) are violent. So why does it bother you to see women talking about their views, experiences, and thoughts about violence and violence against women? And why do you refuse to acknowledge that some violence specifically targets women, and domestic violence happens to one of them? In your mind, do women have a right to talk about violence that affects them and their gender community?

quote:
While no one is responsible for what others do to them, self-preservation is the first law of nature


In cases of abuse in which leaving an abusive situation is just as dangerous as staying, what would you say to women in such a predicament? And what would you say to women who made attempts to exercise self preservation, and endured more abuse? Do you think that are all abusive situations are the same, and should be treated the same?
quote:
Everyone knows this, but the problem is, men (who are the majority of the world's perpetrators of violence) are violent.


No ... some men are violent; just as some women are violent. That is why it is important that there be no gender distinction so that everyone is taught that violence, in most cases, is inappropriate.

quote:
So why does it bother you to see women talking about their views, experiences, and thoughts about violence and violence against women? In your mind, do women have a right to talk about violence that affects them and their gender community?


It doesn't bother me to see women talking about their views, experiences, and thoughts about violence and violence against women. Where havei said, inferred or intimated anything to suggest this? I would suggest that your understanding of what I have said is [mis]informed by your [and/or Ms. K's] filters.

quote:
And why do you refuse to acknowledge that some violence specifically targets women, and domestic violence happens to one of them?


I have never refused to acknowledge the first part of this statement; but read aloud the second part of the above ... that domestic violence happens to be a form of violence that specifically targets women. I'm certain that with your filter turned off, you will agree that this is an unsupportable, and patently false statement.

quote:
In your mind, do women have a right to talk about violence that affects them and their gender community?


Yes.

quote:
In cases of abuse in which leaving an abusive situation is just as dangerous as staying, what would you say to women in such a predicament?


I don't know ... I don't have pat answers; but my first thought is ... if I were in a situation where it is dangerous to stay AND dangerous to leave, I would hope that I would have the courage, faith and strength to leave [after arranging for safe space] because if I were fortunate enough to escape, I would never have to be in the position to be abused by that person again.

quote:
And what would you say to women who made attempts to exercise self preservation, and endured more abuse?


Again, I do not know ... maybe "Buy a gun, a straight razor or a baseball bat and pray for the strength and resolve to use it."

quote:
Do you think that are all abusive situations are the same, and should be treated the same?


No. And, I have said as much.
quote:
Originally posted by Kweli4Real:
No ... some men are violent; just as some women are violent. That is why it is important that there be no gender distinction so that everyone is taught that violence, in most cases, is inappropriate.


Brother Kweli, this is an example of how you are misreading statements. I did not state that all men are violent. I stated the majority of the world's perpetrators of violence are men. The fact is, most of the world's acts of violence are commited by men. And if someone is interested in researching violence, then it would make sense to pinpoint who is committing most of the violence, rather than ignore and pretend as if this trend in violence does not exist, which is what you're doing in order to protect your defenses of men in general. But we cannot have an honest discussion about this aspect of violence by ignoring these trends. Important information and statistical data about an societal issue are investigated and reported for a reason.

quote:
It doesn't bother me to see women talking about their views, experiences, and thoughts about violence and violence against women.


Every since I've made the numbered suggestions, every step of the way you have made arguments against the contents of this thread, and you have even insinuated that our purpose here is to perhaps demonize all men and make them out to be "evil abusers". That's what you have done, and all the while basing your judgements on poor interpretations and incorrect information. Clearly, you are bothered, or at least annoyed, by what you've read from the sisters' responses.

quote:
I have never refused to acknowledge the first part of this statement; but read aloud the second part of the above ... that domestic violence happens to be a form of violence that specifically targets women. I'm certain that with your filter turned off, you will agree that this is an unsupportable, and patently false statement.


On the second page, who said that he would excuse himself from this discussion in order to "allow you to make men the exclusive demon and women the exclusive victim of abuse"? Whose filter was on long enough to make up that story? We are still waiting for you to turn off your filter and participate in this discussion from a more objective and observational stance rather than a stance that's disruptive.

quote:
I don't know ... I don't have pat answers; but my first thought is ... if I were in a situation where it is dangerous to stay AND dangerous to leave, I would hope that I would have the courage, faith and strength to leave [after arranging for safe space] because if I were fortunate enough to escape, I would never have to be in the position to be abused by that person again.


This is my suggestion. Spend less time judging and offering general solutions, and more time investigating the experiences of women who have survived the horror of being in abusive relationships. Ask more questions and do more listening in these types of discussions rather than requesting that women "be quiet" about what they think should be done about an issue that heavily affects them and their gender community. That's my suggestion.
I would have liked to discuss this subject, and my personal experiences with it, but honestly, the 'focus on the victim' and 'let's talk about general violence' postings of some, like women aren't the main one's getting abused kinda makes my skin crawl...

It reminds me of the 'bootstrap/personal responsibility' and 'reverse racism' focus of white conservo-nuts. I find it disheartenning, and frankly, disrespectful to the issue and the abused.

To all you 'get up an leave', 'but women hit too', and 'women provoke it'(from other threads) folks... You have no idea what you are talking about...
quote:
Originally posted by Oshun Auset:
I would have liked to discuss this subject, and my personal experiences with it, but honestly, the 'focus on the victim' and 'let's talk about general violence' postings of some, like women aren't the main one's getting abused kinda makes my skin crawl...

It reminds me of the 'bootstrap/personal responsibility' and 'reverse racism' focus of white conservo-nuts. I find it disheartenning, and frankly, disrespectful to the issue and the abused.

To all you 'get up an leave', 'but women hit too', and 'women provoke it'(from other threads) folks... You have no idea what you are talking about...


yeah

Those are exactly my thoughts.. A long time ago I called for a private sister forum just for that reason alone.. The discussions of rape and abuse against females most times can't be done around men.. and insensitive women curiously are sometimes the same women that are motivated by and seek male attention so theoretically their audience goes away...
quote:
Originally posted by Oshun Auset:

To all you 'get up an leave', 'but women hit too', and 'women provoke it'(from other threads) folks... You have no idea what you are talking about...


That may be true, OA ....

However, I think it's an interesting dynamic that those who 'have no idea what they are talking about' are the ones who have not been participants in domestic abuse cases ... neither as an abuser or the abused.

The 'wrong way of thinking' about the situation of domestic violence has managed to keep 'those who don't know' off of the *negative* side of the statistics in this debate. Being *right* ... not so much. sck

That goes for both males and females.

Perhaps, at least in this case, being *wrong* is the right thing to do.
quote:
Originally posted by EbonyRose:
Perhaps, at least in this case, being *wrong* is the right thing to do.


Although I'm hesitant to make this a blanket truth, there is some ironic validity to this.

With that said, I saw, but did not suffer domestic violence. So, I do know what I'm talking about. And your and Kweli's points still stand (in an increasing number of situations) in my opinion.

The entire culture is coarsening, not just the men. And that kind of dynamic allows people to feed off of and promote the worst in each other.
This is what I think is happening:

One set of posters is talking about abuse and solutions as it is occuring: women protecting themselves, finding healthy & safe ways to leave abusive situations and finding support systems post-abuse. This POV is good for fixing now, but isn't future looking.

The other set are talking about abuse and prescriptive solutions: teaching male and female children appropriate behavior in relation to emotions, anger, verbal and physical actions toward others. By setting clear standards with both genders early:

1) Women develop a clear standard of acceptable behavior from a romantic partner and a clear standard of acceptable behavior toward a romantic partner. Ideally, this will allow them to choose partners that will not abuse them in any manner.

2) Men develop a clear standard of acceptable behavior from a romantic partner and a clear standard of acceptable behavior toward a romantic partner. Ideally, this will allow them to choose partners that will not abuse them in any manner.

This view is good for fixing the future, but doesn't address the now.

There are a variety of societal reasons why men don't report abuse (physical, emotional or verbal) from women frequently enough for it to gain traction as a serious issue (like male on female abuse), but that is outside the scope of this thread.
quote:
Originally posted by ddouble:
The other set are talking about abuse and prescriptive solutions: teaching male and female children appropriate behavior in relation to emotions, anger, verbal and physical actions toward others. By setting clear standards with both genders early:

1) Women develop a clear standard of acceptable behavior from a romantic partner and a clear standard of acceptable behavior toward a romantic partner. Ideally, this will allow them to choose partners that will not abuse them in any manner.

2) Men develop a clear standard of acceptable behavior from a romantic partner and a clear standard of acceptable behavior toward a romantic partner. Ideally, this will allow them to choose partners that will not abuse them in any manner.

This view is good for fixing the future, but doesn't address the now.


This is my position. But I wouldn't say that it could not ever address the "now".

Script-flipping in a relationship is hard to do (especially, when the relationship is so tilted toward one party controlling the other) but it is possible.

On a broad level, isn't that is what's happening when the woman leaves? She's saying "no more, these are the new terms of interaction. Since you won't abide, I'm out.". I'm not minimizing legitimate safety issues, but psychologically, what I wrote is also being said. She's saving her life, AND taking her power back in dictating how she will and will not engage with people (of course, the real test is what the next relationship looks like or if she returns).

My only point is to see that instilled in kids (of both genders) early on...
quote:
Originally posted by ddouble:

There are a variety of societal reasons why men don't report abuse (physical, emotional or verbal) from women frequently enough for it to gain traction as a serious issue (like male on female abuse), but that is outside the scope of this thread.


I had 2 'aunts' (one blood, the other close enough) that used to beat the living hell out of my 'uncles'!! Eek Both of them lost teeth, had bones broken ... one of them got blinded in one eye ... I don't know if they ever fought back, but if so, they lost the battle.

Everybody knew it, of course, but it couldn't be talked about 'out loud'. Roll Eyes Us kids weren't supposed to know. One uncle 'died' his way out of the relationship (she didn't kill him - directly, anyway). And in the other case, my aunt finally divorced him (after decades of marriage), he remarried, and now the aunt recently passed away .... still wanting him to 'come back home'.

I've seen/been around a variety of different types of abuse up close and personal all of my life. Never 'been there' nor 'done that' though. And I have every intention of keeping it that way.
quote:
Originally posted by shulamite:
Script-flipping in a relationship is hard to do (especially, when the relationship is so tilted toward one party controlling the other) but it is possible.

On a broad level, isn't that is what's happening when the woman leaves? She's saying "no more, these are the new terms of interaction. Since you won't abide, I'm out.". I'm not minimizing legitimate safety issues, but psychologically, what I wrote is also being said. She's saving her life, AND taking her power back in dictating how she will and will not engage with people (of course, the real test is what the next relationship looks like or if she returns).

My only point is to see that instilled in kids (of both genders) early on...


WOW, somebody FINALLY said it.

Whether NOW, or in the FUTURE, people should have and STAND on their personal boundaries without apology.

And your point about BOTH genders having proper boundaries instilled in them is also poignant. My daughter is told, if a boy raises his voice at her or yells at her for ANY REASON, she is to no longer associate with him.

Now..if she did something legitimately to cross HIS boundaries, then we discuss THAT too, because you NEVER get shitty with people, and people have the RIGHT and duty (to themselves) to avoid shitty acting people in any context.

Part of the problem is that people have shitty boundaries. If people knew the cost of misbehaving in their relationships (that didn't involve violence or manipulation) then they'd think twice before acting silly.

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