Men tell Oprah why they beat the women they love




(OPRAH.com) -- Every day, three women die as result of abuse -- that's nearly 1,100 killed every year. "That number might not mean anything to you...unless the woman was your mother, your sister, your daughter," Oprah Winfrey says. Young men who admit to hitting, kicking, choking and even wanting to kill the women they claim to love are opening up to Winfrey and giving an unprecedented look inside the minds of abusers.

Sir says the first time he laid his hands on his wife, Christy, was just weeks after their wedding. He says he got jealous after a party where she was dancing with someone else.

"It set me off. I remember walking up to her and smacking her full force," Sir says. "I grabbed her by her neck, and I kind of held her against the car. Then, I walked her over to the bushes and threw her in there, and I just started choking her. It was with every bit of rage, every bit of anger I've ever had."

After the first incident of abuse, Sir says he held a gun to his head. "It was very hard for me to come to grips with the man that I was," he says. Sir promised Christy it would never happen again, and she forgave him.

Though Sir swore to his wife that the abuse would stop, it continued for the next two-and-a-half years. Even while Christy was pregnant, she says Sir beat her to the point where she feared for her life. "She didn't want to be intimate with me, she didn't want to have sex with me and I got very furious," Sir says. "I got on top of her and sat on her stomach."

Christy says Sir choked her and covered her nose and mouth so she couldn't breathe. "I was just thinking: 'Oh my gosh, I'm going to die right now. Is this really happening?'" Oprah.com: 7 ways to end violence against women

When he was in a rage and beating Christy, Sir says he did want her to die. "I had every intention to take her life. I felt like I had power and control over something in my life," Sir says. "It made me feel invincible."

Luckily, Christy survived the abuse.

"By the grace of God, reality would come back to me as the rage would decrease," Sir says. "I look back now and I can see that at that time, when the rage would come, it was like tunnel vision. I would try and express my anger and my disappointment the only way I knew how. And that was through abuse."

Eventually, Christy left Sir and gave him an ultimatum -- either they would include Christ in their marriage or she would not return to Sir. "I went home and gave my life to Christ," Sir says. "With that [freedom] came the relationship with my wife. It was so much better."

Sir says it's been about two years since he last hit Christy. "If one of our arguments were to progress and continue to escalate, instead of adrenaline, it's knots," he says. "I'll have knots in my stomach, and I'll say, 'Okay, we have to stop talking.' That allows me to step aside and pray and calm down."

Christy says that if Sir were to ever hit her again, she would leave. "He has full knowledge of what he needs to be doing as a man and a father and a husband," she says. "If he's not owning up to those responsibilities, then I'm better than that, and my kids deserve better than that." Oprah.com: What happens when children witness abuse?

Though Sir says the abuse has stopped, he admits it's an everyday struggle. "If I ever think I have it under control, I'm in trouble," he says.

Though Sir can't speak for all men, he believes his own abusive behavior was triggered by his past. "Kids are precious -- they record everything," he says. "I grew up in an abusive household, so I didn't know how to verbally communicate with my wife without putting her down. I didn't know how to verbally disagree with her and say, 'We don't see eye to eye,' and be okay with that."

Does Sir believe that every man who hits a woman once will hit her again? "I say yes because I hit [Christy] more than once -- there was a second occasion, there was a third," he says. "Do I think it's a cycle that can be stopped? Yes."

Tony is another man who admits to having abused a woman. In an e-mail to Winfrey, he said he beat a previous girlfriend so badly she bled. "I couldn't express myself verbally, so I would take it out on her physically," Tony wrote. "The thing that triggered me was that I was insecure as a person. To see her stare at another man, or to see her have a conversation with another man, or if she confronted me about anything, it enraged me."

Though Tony says he knew, even in the moment, that he shouldn't being doing what he was doing, he says he couldn't stop.

Today, he says he's trying to make amends for his previous actions by speaking out against domestic violence whenever he can. "[I want] to say, by grace and remorse, that I'm still here today," he says. "I made it through."

Tony says it felt like he "blacked out" during the abuse. "You don't understand what's going on," he says. "I completely own up to [what I did], but in that rage, it's like your brain wires, they aren't clicking."

He says being in an abusive relationship is like being in a drug addiction. "It becomes like your bond in the sense that the woman is like cocaine inside of that relationship. That's the only connection you have, because there's no real love," he says. "In order to overcome it, it's almost like you have to separate, go to rehab, move out of the dope house and never come back."

Although physical abuse is never acceptable, Sir and Tony say it's the emotional abuse that leaves the deepest scars. "The internal abuse, the demoralizing and demeaning of a woman, lasted longer than the physical abuse," Tony says. "The bruises heal. On the inside, you strip away their pride, force them to compromise their self-worth, their self-respect."

Tony says a grooming process tends to take place within abusive relationships. "In a sense, you gain their trust, but it's all lust and lies. The relationship is built on deception," he says. "They feel like you love them, and when you get close enough to them, you're able to critique them and criticize them in a way that they feel like, 'He loves me, so I need to change this.'"

The grooming, Sir and Tony say, stems from the man's own lack of self-worth. "In public I'm a very confident male; at home I'm very insecure," Sir says.

It's an issue Sir says he and his wife are still working through. "She still heals from the verbal abuse. I took almost every secret that she gave me to in an argument and threw it back at her as an insult," he says. "So it took awhile to kind of have communication."

Many people who have never experienced abuse wonder why it isn't easy for a woman to leave after the first time she's hit. If a woman does leave immediately, would an abuser get the message? "Would a man continue to hit a woman who refuses to be hit?" Winfrey asks.

"I think it's different for each man," Sir says. "To me, it could have been reversed in the sense of, 'Okay, I'm going to have to tame this now.' Or the opposite is, 'I shouldn't have done that.'" Oprah.com: How do we end the cycle of abuse?

From The Oprah Winfrey Show






Find this article at:
http://www.cnn.com/2009/LIVING...tml?iref=werecommend
(Article has links to other related articles)
 
 BLACK by NATURE, PROUD by CHOICE.
Original Post
Wow this is shocking that you would post this..

quote:
Originally posted by Ebony Rose:
Sir says the first time he laid his hands on his wife, Christy, was just weeks after their wedding. He says he got jealous after a party where she was dancing with someone else.



Well clearly if she had not danced with someone he wouldn't have done this:

quote:
"It set me off. I remember walking up to her and smacking her full force," Sir says. "I grabbed her by her neck, and I kind of held her against the car. Then, I walked her over to the bushes and threw her in there, and I just started choking her. It was with every bit of rage, every bit of anger I've ever had."


Clearly he had no choice but to do the above because she didn't have the good sense not to set off his jealousy...

It's her responsibility to know her man and not dance with someone so she doesn't get killed ...
quote:
Originally posted by Khalliqa:
Wow this is shocking that you would post this..

quote:
Originally posted by Ebony Rose:
Sir says the first time he laid his hands on his wife, Christy, was just weeks after their wedding. He says he got jealous after a party where she was dancing with someone else.



Well clearly if she had not danced with someone he wouldn't have done this:

quote:
"It set me off. I remember walking up to her and smacking her full force," Sir says. "I grabbed her by her neck, and I kind of held her against the car. Then, I walked her over to the bushes and threw her in there, and I just started choking her. It was with every bit of rage, every bit of anger I've ever had."


Clearly he had no choice but to do the above because she didn't have the good sense not to set off his jealousy...

It's her responsibility to know her man and not dance with someone so she doesn't get killed ...


You really need to quit. Roll Eyes
quote:
Originally posted by EbonyRose:
quote:
Originally posted by Khalliqa:
Wow this is shocking that you would post this..

quote:
Originally posted by Ebony Rose:
Sir says the first time he laid his hands on his wife, Christy, was just weeks after their wedding. He says he got jealous after a party where she was dancing with someone else.



Well clearly if she had not danced with someone he wouldn't have done this:

quote:
"It set me off. I remember walking up to her and smacking her full force," Sir says. "I grabbed her by her neck, and I kind of held her against the car. Then, I walked her over to the bushes and threw her in there, and I just started choking her. It was with every bit of rage, every bit of anger I've ever had."


Clearly he had no choice but to do the above because she didn't have the good sense not to set off his jealousy...

It's her responsibility to know her man and not dance with someone so she doesn't get killed ...


You really need to quit. Roll Eyes



I guess I should have anticipated that too.. Did I CAUSE you to be upset regarding my frustration with the consistent lack of sensitivity regarding this issue?

Omg!Don't internet beat me ER!!!


On a serious note.. I meant that.. the above scenario is how people portray women in these situations...

And you see she took him back... She gave him the benefit of the doubt... and that too would have been looked at insensitively...

This kind of thinking doesn't help women in abuse situations like this at all.. td6
Actually, Ms. K ... since you're so chompin' at the bit to discuss it .... perhaps you'd be willing to talk about the reason why Sir's wife continued to allow him to beat her for the next 2-1/2 years, through her pregnacy with a child she created with him while being abused, before she determined that it was time to go? Confused

Now THAT would be a dialog related to this story worth listening to. 19
quote:
Originally posted by Khalliqa:

I guess I should have anticipated that too.. Did I CAUSE you to be upset regarding my frustration with the consistent lack of sensitivity regarding this issue?


No .. actually you DISAPPOINTED me. sck

And .. upset or not .. I neither give nor accept violence in my life. So, I wouldn't have Internet beat you ... even if you HAD actually pissed me the hell off! Smile
quote:
Originally posted by Khalliqa:
Wow this is shocking that you would post this..

quote:
Originally posted by Ebony Rose:
Sir says the first time he laid his hands on his wife, Christy, was just weeks after their wedding. He says he got jealous after a party where she was dancing with someone else.



Well clearly if she had not danced with someone he wouldn't have done this:

quote:
"It set me off. I remember walking up to her and smacking her full force," Sir says. "I grabbed her by her neck, and I kind of held her against the car. Then, I walked her over to the bushes and threw her in there, and I just started choking her. It was with every bit of rage, every bit of anger I've ever had."


Clearly he had no choice but to do the above because she didn't have the good sense not to set off his jealousy...

It's her responsibility to know her man and not dance with someone so she doesn't get killed ...


Maybe I misread the OP, but I'm not gleaning that there was any excusing or sympathizing with the men here. What am I missing?
quote:
Originally posted by Vox:
quote:
Originally posted by Khalliqa:
Wow this is shocking that you would post this..

quote:
Originally posted by Ebony Rose:
Sir says the first time he laid his hands on his wife, Christy, was just weeks after their wedding. He says he got jealous after a party where she was dancing with someone else.



Well clearly if she had not danced with someone he wouldn't have done this:

quote:
"It set me off. I remember walking up to her and smacking her full force," Sir says. "I grabbed her by her neck, and I kind of held her against the car. Then, I walked her over to the bushes and threw her in there, and I just started choking her. It was with every bit of rage, every bit of anger I've ever had."


Clearly he had no choice but to do the above because she didn't have the good sense not to set off his jealousy...

It's her responsibility to know her man and not dance with someone so she doesn't get killed ...


Maybe I misread the OP, but I'm not gleaning that there was any excusing or sympathizing with the men here. What am I missing?


I don't know.. the source of my befuddlement is the same as yours.. where in the post above does it say that there is excusing or sympathizing with men here?
quote:
Originally posted by EbonyRose:
Actually, Ms. K ... since you're so chompin' at the bit to discuss it .... perhaps you'd be willing to talk about the reason why Sir's wife continued to allow him to beat her for the next 2-1/2 years, through her pregnacy with a child she created with him while being abused, before she determined that it was time to go? Confused

Now THAT would be a dialog related to this story worth listening to. 19



No.. that's your homework assignment.. and it will help you ... and I mean this sincerely.. if you are in any way near a position to tell abused women what they should do you need to first thoroughly understand, and not from a point of judgment... but allow yourself to absorb the reasons that many will give themselves... don't just listen to her self deprecating either as justification.. listen to what went on in her mind that rationalized staying... you may be surprised ER...

[/serious moment over]

quote:
Originally posted by EbonyRose:
quote:
Originally posted by Khalliqa:

I guess I should have anticipated that too.. Did I CAUSE you to be upset regarding my frustration with the consistent lack of sensitivity regarding this issue?


No .. actually you DISAPPOINTED me. sck

And .. upset or not .. I neither give nor accept violence in my life. So, I wouldn't have Internet beat you ... even if you HAD actually pissed me the hell off! Smile


I .. I.. Disappointed you?? *sniff*... I didn't know I had the ability to control your emotions like that... I will TRY to not CAUSE you disappointment no mo'...

and I heard that nonviolent stuff before.. but I know you ER... you done tried to beat me befo'... remember?

munch

and here I am controlling your emotions again... sck

*twirls around with dramatic feigned concern*

btw: puhleeze go back to not speaking.. I keep telling you I like you better silent..


shhhhhhhhh!!!!!!!!
quote:
Originally posted by Khalliqa:
quote:
Originally posted by Vox:
Maybe I misread the OP, but I'm not gleaning that there was any excusing or sympathizing with the men here. What am I missing?


I don't know.. the source of my befuddlement is the same as yours.. where in the post above does it say that there is excusing or sympathizing with men here?
You derisively say things like:
quote:
Clearly he had no choice but to do the above because she didn't have the good sense not to set off his jealousy...
and
quote:
Well clearly if she had not danced with someone he wouldn't have done this:


... As if to suggest that the article is blaming the woman more than the man. What I'm saying is that I don't sense in the article that Oprah's segment on this was in any way blaming the women or excusing the men. If you're seeing it the same way I do, then why did you respond to the segment so sardonically? I'm just curious as to your POV on this, because I don't get it.
quote:
Originally posted by Vox:
quote:
Originally posted by Khalliqa:
quote:
Originally posted by Vox:
Maybe I misread the OP, but I'm not gleaning that there was any excusing or sympathizing with the men here. What am I missing?


I don't know.. the source of my befuddlement is the same as yours.. where in the post above does it say that there is excusing or sympathizing with men here?
You derisively say things like:
quote:
Clearly he had no choice but to do the above because she didn't have the good sense not to set off his jealousy...
and
quote:
Well clearly if she had not danced with someone he wouldn't have done this:


... As if to suggest that the article is blaming the woman more than the man. If you're not seeing in the article any sympathy for the men, or excusing of their actions, then why did you respond to it so sardonically?


Are you saying that you don't understand the source of the sarcasm? or the point of the sarcasm?

If it is the source.. then I've explained that in my subsequent post.. (the very next one after the first) scroll up and you will see it there..

If it is the second .. then I've explained that in my subsequent post.. scroll up and you will see it there...

no mystery...


Why? and what does this have to do with men here???
Dammit. It's early in the morning, forgive me for not catching on. I didn't realize I was walking into a reference to a disagreement from an old thread.

I wish you would stop doing that. People on this site need to quit bringing old beef into new threads. What is up with that?
quote:
Originally posted by Vox:
Dammit. It's early in the morning, forgive me for not catching on. I didn't realize I was walking into a reference to a disagreement from an old thread.

I wish you would stop doing that. People on this site need to quit bringing old beef into new threads. What is up with that?


What are you talking about??? Confused

There is no reference to another thread... There is a tongue in cheek response to the post though regarding a mentality that is prevalent in our communities regarding abused women and why they stay in abusive relationships..

you're right you need to just stop reading so early in the morning.. it's starting to get to you...

if you stop trying to read into poster motives all the time then you won't be so confused...

Now go read it again.. there is a discussion about the post.. and another between ER and I that has ended because hopefully she will go back to being silent..

if you need more help analyzing I'll try to make time to help you..

But in the meantime, maybe you should just respond to the post, instead of wondering what Khalliqa is thinking when she posts that might help the discussion stay on point..
quote:
"They feel like you love them, and when you get close enough to them, you're able to critique them and criticize them in a way that they feel like, 'He loves me, so I need to change this. How do we end the cycle of abuse?


We end the cycle of abuse by teaching our children, and perhaps boys in particular, positve ways to express their emotions. Physical abuse, and any kind of abuse for that matter, has a lot to do with someone wanting to exercise power over someone else. But when the abuse is done by men, I think it also has to do with it not being socially acceptable for men to express their emotions, unless it's expressed by physical means. Consequently, a lot of boys grow up to become men who think that the only time when it is OK for men to display emotions is when they are angry. And so, feelings of sadness, disappointment, grief, etc. - all of these emotions are converted into anger so that men can get emotional relief and release.

What needs to happen is that we need to educate our sons through words, and more importantly by deeds and example, about more balanced and healthy ways to be men. We need to tell and SHOW our sons that it is OK and more than enough to simply say to someone that I feel disappointed. I feel sadness. I feel grief. We don't want our sons to say to others, "You made me feel disappointed", because then, we teach them to hold others accountable for their feelings. We need to teach our sons about how to be accountable for their own actions, because no one can make you do or say anything. You make choices, and every choice that you make has a consequence.

Moreover, I think our society in general promotes entirely too much violence. Violence against women in the media is still a profitable means of entertainment in our society. And to counteract these destructive images, boys are not seeing enough examples of men in their homes, in their communities, and elsewhere in the society of men who act and think with their brains, rather than their bodies, especially when it comes to relationships.

Ultimately, our society needs to adopt a completely different conception of masculinity. We need to tell our sons that they do not have power, control, and possession of womens' minds, bodies, and identities, even when they are married to women. Marrying a woman does not mean that you now own her. Men need to get that out of their heads, and quick. When you marry someone, their love is a reward for your committment, respect, and love. And you don't earn this reward by consistently exerting force or control in order to "keep a woman in line." You earn (and keep) a woman's love by consistently treating her with love and respect.
quote:
Originally posted by Khalliqa:
quote:
Originally posted by Vox:
Dammit. It's early in the morning, forgive me for not catching on. I didn't realize I was walking into a reference to a disagreement from an old thread.

I wish you would stop doing that. People on this site need to quit bringing old beef into new threads. What is up with that?


What are you talking about??? Confused

There is no reference to another thread... There is a tongue in cheek response to the post though regarding a mentality that is prevalent in our communities regarding abused women and why they stay in abusive relationships..
So you were being sarcastic about a mentality that's out there in the world, without reference to anything you've ever interpreted anyone on this site as saying that may mirror that mentality. Gotcha. Roll Eyes
quote:
Originally posted by Vox:
quote:
Originally posted by Khalliqa:
quote:
Originally posted by Vox:
Dammit. It's early in the morning, forgive me for not catching on. I didn't realize I was walking into a reference to a disagreement from an old thread.

I wish you would stop doing that. People on this site need to quit bringing old beef into new threads. What is up with that?


What are you talking about??? Confused

There is no reference to another thread... There is a tongue in cheek response to the post though regarding a mentality that is prevalent in our communities regarding abused women and why they stay in abusive relationships..
So you were being sarcastic about a mentality that's out there in the world, without reference to anything you've ever interpreted anyone on this site as saying that may mirror that mentality. Gotcha. Roll Eyes


Now that that's cleared up..

Do you have an opinion about the article posted? Or did you enter the thread to specifically analyze me?

I like your posts sometimes.. I wanna hear your opinion too.. not just of me.. and my interaction on the board..

come on Vox.. don't you have something to say about the ARTICLE???

thanks..
quote:
Originally posted by Rowe:
quote:
"They feel like you love them, and when you get close enough to them, you're able to critique them and criticize them in a way that they feel like, 'He loves me, so I need to change this. How do we end the cycle of abuse?


We end the cycle of abuse by teaching our children, and perhaps boys in particular, positve ways to express their emotions. Physical abuse, and any kind of abuse for that matter, has a lot to do with someone wanting to exercise power over someone else. But when the abuse is done by men, I think it also has to do with it not being socially acceptable for men to express their emotions, unless it's expressed by physical means. Consequently, a lot of boys grow up to become men who think that the only time when it is OK for men to display emotions is when they are angry. And so, feelings of sadness, disappointment, grief, etc. - all of these emotions are converted into anger so that men can get emotional relief and release.

What needs to happen is that we need to educate our sons through words, and more importantly by deeds and example, about more balanced and healthy ways to be men. We need to tell and SHOW our sons that it is OK and more than enough to simply say to someone that I feel disappointed. I feel sadness. I feel grief. We don't want our sons to say to others, "You made me feel disappointed", because then, we teach them to hold others accountable for their feelings. We need to teach our sons about how to be accountable for their own actions, because no one can make you do or say anything. You make choices, and every choice that you make has a consequence.

Moreover, I think our society in general promotes entirely too much violence. Violence against women in the media is still a profitable means of entertainment in our society. And to counteract these destructive images, boys are not seeing enough examples of men in their homes, in their communities, and elsewhere in the society of men who act and think with their brains, rather than their bodies, especially when it comes to relationships.

Ultimately, our society needs to adopt a completely different conception of masculinity. We need to tell our sons that they do not have power, control, and possession of womens' minds, bodies, and identities, even when they are married to women. Marrying a woman does not mean that you now own her. Men need to get that out of their heads, and quick. When you marry someone, their love is a reward for your committment, respect, and love. And you don't earn this reward by consistently exerting force or control in order to "keep a woman in line." You earn (and keep) a woman's love by consistently treating her with love and respect.



I can agree with some of this...

But I would add that dudes like this don't limit their abuse to the women in their lives.. they abuse WHATEVER they can control... AND get away with..

Children...

Subordinate employees

Relatives...

Strangers...
quote:
Originally posted by Khalliqa:
No.. that's your homework assignment.. and it will help you ... and I mean this sincerely.. if you are in any way near a position to tell abused women what they should do you need to first thoroughly understand, and not from a point of judgment... but allow yourself to absorb the reasons that many will give themselves... don't just listen to her self deprecating either as justification.. listen to what went on in her mind that rationalized staying... you may be surprised ER...


Judging the victim is another aspect of physical abuse that alarms me as well. When the Rhianna and Chris Brown story surfaced, I heard one popular, D.C. talk-radio host, who surprisingly is a woman, ask her audience, "But why would Rhianna 'let' Chris Brown hit her?" I thought her question was very insensitive, ignorant, and her commentary throughout the program seemed to defend Chris Brown (the alleged victimizer) rather than Rhianna (the victim). Our community needs to hold everyone accountable. We can't give our brothers a break for doing wrong simply because the society is against them. Get them help for whatever issues they may have, certainly. But we must ALSO hold them accountable for making poor decisions. This whole thing about Rhianna shouldn't have let Chris Brown hit her is absolutely ridiculous.

I mean, if Chris Brown did in fact attack Rhianna, then does this radio host actually think that Rhianna just layed down there, on the ground somewhere, and told Brown to hit her? People are so ignorant about physical abuse. Physical abuse doesn't happen on the first date. An entire relationship and bond develops in which profound trust is established before the abuse actually begins. And in most cases, it happens over time. A person may be in a relationship with his or her partner for years, never knowing what his or her partner is capable of doing or the rage that is lying dormat, before the abuse starts.

There are signs, however, in the beginning of the relationship. And perhaps because many girls might witness abuse in their homes on a regular basis, they might not be sensitive to all the subtle warnings. For example, if you grew up watching your mom be disrepsected and mistreated by men, even though she may not have ever been physically abused, then how will the woman or teenage girl know the difference between acceptable and unacceptable behavior?

People must think about all of these issues before they rush to judging and demonizing the victims of abuse.
quote:
Originally posted by Khalliqa:
quote:
Originally posted by Rowe:
quote:
"They feel like you love them, and when you get close enough to them, you're able to critique them and criticize them in a way that they feel like, 'He loves me, so I need to change this. How do we end the cycle of abuse?


We end the cycle of abuse by teaching our children, and perhaps boys in particular, positve ways to express their emotions. Physical abuse, and any kind of abuse for that matter, has a lot to do with someone wanting to exercise power over someone else. But when the abuse is done by men, I think it also has to do with it not being socially acceptable for men to express their emotions, unless it's expressed by physical means. Consequently, a lot of boys grow up to become men who think that the only time when it is OK for men to display emotions is when they are angry. And so, feelings of sadness, disappointment, grief, etc. - all of these emotions are converted into anger so that men can get emotional relief and release.

What needs to happen is that we need to educate our sons through words, and more importantly by deeds and example, about more balanced and healthy ways to be men. We need to tell and SHOW our sons that it is OK and more than enough to simply say to someone that I feel disappointed. I feel sadness. I feel grief. We don't want our sons to say to others, "You made me feel disappointed", because then, we teach them to hold others accountable for their feelings. We need to teach our sons about how to be accountable for their own actions, because no one can make you do or say anything. You make choices, and every choice that you make has a consequence.

Moreover, I think our society in general promotes entirely too much violence. Violence against women in the media is still a profitable means of entertainment in our society. And to counteract these destructive images, boys are not seeing enough examples of men in their homes, in their communities, and elsewhere in the society of men who act and think with their brains, rather than their bodies, especially when it comes to relationships.

Ultimately, our society needs to adopt a completely different conception of masculinity. We need to tell our sons that they do not have power, control, and possession of womens' minds, bodies, and identities, even when they are married to women. Marrying a woman does not mean that you now own her. Men need to get that out of their heads, and quick. When you marry someone, their love is a reward for your committment, respect, and love. And you don't earn this reward by consistently exerting force or control in order to "keep a woman in line." You earn (and keep) a woman's love by consistently treating her with love and respect.



I can agree with some of this...

But I would add that dudes like this don't limit their abuse to the women in their lives.. they abuse WHATEVER they can control... AND get away with..

Children...

Subordinate employees

Relatives...

Strangers...


You are right about this. That's why I said: Our society needs to stop promoting, reinforcing, and conditioning boys to express their emotions through physical means. We need to tell them that being a man does not have to involve you instigating fights, hitting anyone who makes you angry, and expressing your insecurities through rage and anger. USE YOUR BRAIN. Think before you act, and calm yourself down. This is so interesting, because our school just taught students a step-by-step process for how to deal with feelings of anger and frustration. These are skills that must be taught to children when they are young. Otherwise, they are just going to do what they observe on television and inside some of their dysfuctional home environments. Equally important, we need to hold boys accountable for poor decision making. Another important reason why the cycle of abuse continues is our society makes excuses for boys' and mens' bad behavior in the same way that the radio personality made excuses for Chris Brown, simply on the basis on what he might have done. I am telling you that these "boys will be boys" gendered biases and presumptions that are taken for granted in our society need to be eliminated. And they need to be eliminated today. We need to reteach ourselves and our children that

1. It is NOT acceptable for men to be violent.

2. It is NOT acceptable for men to exert power in destructive ways.

3. It is NOT acceptable for men to have sex irresponsibly and to not be held accountable for their decisions regarding sex or violence.

None of these behaviors are natural or "typical" of men. These behaviors are TAUGHT and socially conditioned. And the sooner the members of our society EVOLVE from this neantherdal thinking, the much better off all of us will be.
quote:
Originally posted by Khalliqa:

btw: puhleeze go back to not speaking.. I keep telling you I like you better silent..


shhhhhhhhh!!!!!!!!


Surely you're not suggesting that I should actually care about what you do or do not like, Ms. K?? Confused 19

However, if there's any confusion about that ... please just let me know ..... Roll Eyes
quote:
Originally posted by EbonyRose:
quote:
Originally posted by Khalliqa:

btw: puhleeze go back to not speaking.. I keep telling you I like you better silent..


shhhhhhhhh!!!!!!!!


Surely you're not suggesting that I should actually care about what you do or do not like, Ms. K?? Confused 19

And if there's any confusion about that ... just let me know ..... Roll Eyes



Well...

Do you care if I answer? 19

If not, then why care to ask?

If so, then you care...


Either way.. you have posted a very good article.. There have been salient points made.. but for some reason the topic of male abuse is being side tracked to focus on..


lil ole me... girl
quote:
Originally posted by EbonyRose:
why Sir's wife continued to allow him to beat her for the next 2-1/2 years, through her pregnacy with a child she created with him while being abused, before she determined that it was time to go?

Now THAT would be a dialog related to this story worth listening to.



I'd want to hear her thoughts as well. But probably because it takes time to process that:

1. The man you trusted could actually be doing this (essentially being in a state of stupor).

2. That he REALLY does mean you harm and it won't get better.

3. If you do leave, you need to have your logistical ducks (family/legal support) in a row
before you end up in the morgue. This is, imo, a big deal for women whose mates are "predator abusers".

If you've entered a marriage in good faith, like this:

quote:
The relationship is built on deception," he says. "They feel like you love them, and when you get close enough to them, you're able to critique them and criticize them in a way that they feel like, 'He loves me, so I need to change this.'"


... that's a very difficult dynamic to untangle oneself from.
I know I'm gonna regret this, but ...

quote:
And they need to be eliminated today. We need to reteach ourselves and our children that

1. It is NOT acceptable for men to be violent.

2. It is NOT acceptable for men to exert power in destructive ways.

3. It is NOT acceptable for men to have sex irresponsibly and to not be held accountable for their decisions regarding sex or violence.


No ... We need to reteach ourselves and our children that

1. It is NOT acceptable for ANYONE to be violent, except in the limited instance of self-defense.

2. It is NOT acceptable for ANYONE to exert power in destructive ways.

3. It is NOT acceptable for ANYONEto have sex irresponsibly and to not be held accountable for their decisions regarding sex or violence
quote:
Originally posted by Kweli4Real:
I know I'm gonna regret this, but ...

quote:
And they need to be eliminated today. We need to reteach ourselves and our children that

1. It is NOT acceptable for men to be violent.

2. It is NOT acceptable for men to exert power in destructive ways.

3. It is NOT acceptable for men to have sex irresponsibly and to not be held accountable for their decisions regarding sex or violence.


No ... We need to reteach ourselves and our children that

1. It is NOT acceptable for ANYONE to be violent.

2. It is NOT acceptable for ANYONE to exert power in destructive ways.

3. It is NOT acceptable for ANYONEto have sex irresponsibly and to not be held accountable for their decisions regarding sex or violence



appl yeah

It *really* has to be addressed. From early childhood. Keep your hands to yourself. Stay out of other folks faces. Make decisions that honor you and the people you deal with...

That it is not "cute" to play-hit...

I think this culture of "hit first, ask questions /think about it later" is endemic to both black boys and girls.

Girls don't probably do it as much to boys, because they're frightened of getting the f*ck knocked out, but girls certainly do it to girls, and getting "used" to that dynamic in girl-girl relating will make it all the easier to be familiar with that dynamic in woman-man relating.
quote:
Originally posted by Kweli4Real:
I know I'm gonna regret this, but ...

quote:
And they need to be eliminated today. We need to reteach ourselves and our children that

1. It is NOT acceptable for men to be violent.

2. It is NOT acceptable for men to exert power in destructive ways.

3. It is NOT acceptable for men to have sex irresponsibly and to not be held accountable for their decisions regarding sex or violence.


No ... We need to reteach ourselves and our children that

1. It is NOT acceptable for ANYONE to be violent.

2. It is NOT acceptable for ANYONE to exert power in destructive ways.

3. It is NOT acceptable for ANYONEto have sex irresponsibly and to not be held accountable for their decisions regarding sex or violence


True ...

Why do you think Rowe focused on men in response to a thread about male abuse ?

I think it is because it is relevant to the discussion and male abuse is a more prevalent problem than the reverse...

Unless... well I should ask..

Kweli, Do you think that both female and male abuse are equally rated occurrences?
quote:
Kweli, Do you think that both female and male abuse are equally rated occurrences?


No. Males tend to be the abusers in most physical, and probably emotional abuse cases. However, frequency of occurrence in one class does not lessen the objectionableness of abuse in the lesser class.

In fact, I could/would argue wait ... let me put on my flame retardent underros ... that making a gender specific distinction, e.g., Men/boys shouldn't do ..., might actually, but unintentionally communicate to women/girls, that whereas men/boys can't, women/girls can.

I recall many years ago on a playground, a girl was playing with several boys. The boys were doing what boys do ... trading punches. Well, the girl joined in, hitting the several of the boys. When one boy hit her back, she immediately broke out into tears, but the words out of her mouth were, "You know boys ain't s'posed ta hit girls."

Granted, the above is a little different, but only because of the intention of the boys ... they were playing around. But somewhere in her rearing, this girl heard "Boys are not supposed to hit girls" and it never translated to her that the rule should also apply to girls hitting boys. That's all I'm saying.
quote:
Originally posted by Kweli4Real:
quote:
Kweli, Do you think that both female and male abuse are equally rated occurrences?


No. Males tend to be the abusers in most physical, and probably emotional abuse cases. However, frequency of occurrence in one class does not lessen the objectionableness of abuse in the lesser class.

In fact, I could/would argue wait ... let me put on my flame retardent underros ... that making a gender specific distinction, e.g., Men/boys shouldn't do ..., might actually, but unintentionally communicate to women/girls, that whereas men/boys can't, women/girls can.

I recall many years ago on a playground, a girl was playing with several boys. The boys were doing what boys do ... trading punches. Well, the girl joined in, hitting the several of the boys. When one boy hit her back, she immediately broke out into tears, but the words out of her mouth were, "You know boys ain't s'posed ta hit girls."

Granted, the above is a little different, but only because of the intention of the boys ... they were playing around. But somewhere in her rearing, this girl heard "Boys are not supposed to hit girls" and it never translated to her that the rule should also apply to girls hitting boys. That's all I'm saying.


Do you think that sometimes the discussion of the more prevalent abuse of women can be discussed on its own merits before discussing other variations with less occurrence?


ummm.. like racism.. On this board we discuss racist attitudes towards blacks on its own merits because of the systemic havoc it has wreaked upon our community and the damage it has caused.. and many times this topic is discussed in isolation by those who dislike equally what they consider black racism or racism in the reverse.. Do you think that the prevalence of male abuse is because it is systemic and negatively wreaking havoc on female safety, child safety, the break down of the family, the health of the abuser and the community at large? Or do you think it is a minor problem?

If so can we talk about that solely?
quote:
Originally posted by Khalliqa:
Do you think that sometimes the discussion of the more prevalent abuse of women can be discussed on its own merits before discussing other variations with less occurrence?


And see, this is why the cycle of abuse continues, because some of us want to stay in denial, and we refuse to face the realities of abuse. The majority of the world's abuse and violence is perpetuated by men. That is a reality, and it's a reality that has to be addressed. We can't allow ourselves to get caught up in these defensive and distracting arguments. Of course, it should go without saying that no one should commit violence against anyone. But the truth of the matter is violence IS being committed, and most of it is being committed by men. Ok so now that we know that, let's go on to step 2, stop dancing around the issue, and deal with it.
quote:
Originally posted by Kweli4Real:
In fact, I could/would argue wait ... let me put on my flame retardent underros ... that making a gender specific distinction, e.g., Men/boys shouldn't do ..., might actually, but unintentionally communicate to women/girls, that whereas men/boys can't, women/girls can.


So, if I tell one child that he can't use the bathroom on himself in public, and that he has to use a private restroom, should everyone else in the classroom assume that they can use the bathroom in public? This is a mistake in logic. And generally speaking, boys and men are physically stronger, particularly in the upper body, than most girls and women. Abusers are fully aware of this, and that's why in most cases of physical abuse, the victimizers are men. It never fails - each time we simply have a discussion about violence against women, we have to get into this, explaining to someone mens' physical advantage.

quote:
I recall many years ago on a playground, a girl was playing with several boys. The boys were doing what boys do ... trading punches.


How do you figure "that's what boys do"? As a person who works in educational settings, I've seen many boys play on playgrounds - boys of different races and having diverse socioeconomic backgrounds. As soon as teachers dismiss them to play, they don't immediately start punching and beating up on one another. Therefore, punching on another human being for "sport" in order to make human contact, or to exert dominance and/or physical supremacy is a LEARNED behavior. It is observed or taught. I discussed this in my last response.

quote:
Granted, the above is a little different, but only because of the intention of the boys ... they were playing around.


No, this is A LOT different from the situations that are being discussed in Sister Ebony's article. The article is describing events in which women are the victims of abuse. The article is not talking about women who provoked or engaged in violent activity. And I'm really disgusted with people's constant need to find some sort of justification and/or excuse for mens' violence. I believe you are derailing, or at least redirecting this discussion, in order to defend men in general. However, men in general is not what this topic is about. The article is not written to criticize men in general. The purpose of this article is to encouraging honest dialogue and discussion about violence against women in relationships, which in most cases, in reality, is committed by men.
quote:
Originally posted by Rowe:
The purpose of this article is to encourage discussion, and hopefully end the cycle of abuse, which is in most cases, in reality, is committed by men.


yeah

Here is something that may help:

http://www.whiteribbon.ca/about_us/

an excerpt-

"What forms of violence against women (VAW) concern you?
The most widespread problems are physical violence against spouses and girlfriends (from hitting right up to murder) and sexual violence (usually committed by a boyfriend, husband, trusted adult, or family member.) There is also emotional abuse -- sexual harassment at work or on the street, stalking, jokes that demean women, and controlling behavior. In some countries violence occurs in the form of genital mutilation of girls and trafficking of girls and young women into prostitution.

What about other forms of violence?
Although ending men’s violence against women is our focus, we are concerned about all forms of violence. We are deeply concerned about violence against children. We are concerned about violence among boys on the playground, in the sports arena, in relationships, and in war. And we are concerned by acts of violence by women against women or against men, although these are not as extensive nor as frequently lethal as men’s violence against women.

Unlike violence by some women against men, violence committed by some men against women has long been socially acceptable and is deeply rooted in beliefs of men’s superiority and of men’s right to control the lives of “their” women.

Does this mean you think that men are bad?
We do not think that men are naturally violent and we don't think that men are bad, however we do think all men have roles and responsibilities in ending violence against women. The majority of men are not physically violent. Researchers tell us many past cultures had little or no violence.

At the same time, we do think that some men have learned to express their anger or insecurity through violence. Far too many men have come to believe that violence against a woman, child or another man is an acceptable way to control another person, especially an intimate partner.

By remaining silent about these things, we allow other men to poison our work, schools and homes.

The good news is that more and more men and boys want to make a difference. Caring men are tired of the sexism that hurts the women around them. Caring men are also concerned with the impact of this violence on the lives of men and boys.

Do you have opinions on other issues of the day?
Our goal is for all men and boys to get involved in a campaign devoted to creating a future without violence against women. Within the WRC there is a great diversity of opinion on many important issues, including ones relating to moral, religious and political beliefs. These issues are important, but they shouldn’t prevent men from working together to stop domestic violence, sexual assault, and sexual harassment. And so we agree to hold diverse opinions. We include men from across the political spectrum from left to right, of all religions, ethnic and racial groups, and backgrounds."
quote:
Do you think that sometimes the discussion of the more prevalent abuse of women can be discussed on its own merits before discussing other variations with less occurrence?


Oh ... Absolutely! So long as the discussion doesn't start with some gender specific prohibition.

Be honest with us, if not yourself ... why is it so important to you that men be the exclusive evil-doers and women, the exclusive victims? 19

quote:
Abusers are fully aware of this, and that's why in most cases of physical abuse, the victimizers are men. It never fails - each time we simply have a discussion about violence against women, we have to get into this, explaining to someone mens' physical advantage.



My point is, has been and always will be that violence is violence, whether the perpetrator is male or female. The fact that males inflict the majority of the abuse is completely beside the point.

quote:
How do you figure "that's what boys do"?


Because I once was a boy and I remember what it was like. Because I have nephews, god-sons and watch kids on the block. I watch what they do.

quote:
And I'm really disgusted with people's constant to find some sort of justification and excuse for mens' violence against women. You're intentionally derailing this topic in order to defend men in general, and that's not what the topic is about.


I ... Call ... bs. No one is defending, justifying or excusing male on female violence. Again ... My point is, has been and always will be that violence is violence, whether the perpetrator is male or female. The fact that males inflict the majority of the abuse is completely beside the point in a discussion purposed with ending the cycle of abuse.

quote:
This topic seeks to resolve and end the cycle of abuse


Then, I would think that you would be interested in stopping ALL abuse, regardless of its origin.

Unless, of course, a purpose in these threads is to find violent males more culpable than violent females.
quote:
Originally posted by Kweli4Real:
Then, I would think that you would be interested in stopping ALL abuse, regardless of its origin.


Again, the topic of this discussion is about women who are the victims of physical abuse. If you can't handle content of this discussion without feeling an urge to defend men in general, then perhaps you might not want to participate in this one, because we're going to continue to talk about women as victims of physical abuse, which is a cycle that is perpetuated by men. We are not going to allow you Brother Kweli to redirect the content of this discussion in order to mute the importance of women needing to protect themselves from physical abuse and men needing to learn more positive and constructive ways to relate to women in their relationships and to express their emotions. This is in fact a very important aspect of physical abuse that is worth discussing, and I don't know why your intention seems to be to disrupt it by asking us to generalize the topic.
quote:
Originally posted by Khalliqa:
wow...


Do you see this Sister Khalliqa? Oh my goodness. Now, it has become irrelevant that the majority of physical abusers are men. Now, that is beside the point, Brother Kweli has said to us, and perhaps in his opinion, too insignificant, I suppose, to be given our attention. This is precisely one of the reasons why we, women especially, need to keep this discussion going. Apparently, some people still have not grasped the depth of this problem. And perhaps it is because Kweli is a man that he is not sensitive to our position in this matter. Sadly, he might be choosing to ignore and deny the evidence of a serious problem that is affecting the health of relationships between today's men and women.
quote:
Originally posted by Kweli4Real:
Because I once was a boy and I remember what it was like. Because I have nephews, god-sons and watch kids on the block. I watch what they do.


Ok so, let me try to understand this, you came out of your mommy's tummy punching on anyone you encountered. You came out of her womb, and as soon as you saw the doctor who ushered your existence, you punched her or him? That's what you did, right? Is that what you're telling me? Man, look, that behavior is learned. And you don't know what those kids on your block have observed. You don't know what they watch on television. How many hours of television they watch, unsupervised. You don't know what they are playing on those video games to reinforce what they've learned. And you are not there when their fathers or older brother teaches them about what to do in a conflict. So you cannot say, with absolute certainty, that fighting is a natural inclination for boys. In fact, I challenge you to ask one of the kids on your block, or even your nephew, what does he do when he is in a coflict. Specifically, ask him what steps does he take to appropriately handle feelings of anger and frustration. If another boy approaches him, for example, with the intention to punch or start a fight, what will he do?
quote:
Originally posted by Kweli4Real:
quote:
Kweli, Do you think that both female and male abuse are equally rated occurrences?


No. Males tend to be the abusers in most physical, and probably emotional abuse cases. However, frequency of occurrence in one class does not lessen the objectionableness of abuse in the lesser class.

In fact, I could/would argue wait ... let me put on my flame retardent underros ... that making a gender specific distinction, e.g., Men/boys shouldn't do ..., might actually, but unintentionally communicate to women/girls, that whereas men/boys can't, women/girls can.

I recall many years ago on a playground, a girl was playing with several boys. The boys were doing what boys do ... trading punches. Well, the girl joined in, hitting the several of the boys. When one boy hit her back, she immediately broke out into tears, but the words out of her mouth were, "You know boys ain't s'posed ta hit girls."

Granted, the above is a little different, but only because of the intention of the boys ... they were playing around. But somewhere in her rearing, this girl heard "Boys are not supposed to hit girls" and it never translated to her that the rule should also apply to girls hitting boys. That's all I'm saying.


thanks
quote:
Originally posted by Kweli4Real:
quote:
Do you think that sometimes the discussion of the more prevalent abuse of women can be discussed on its own merits before discussing other variations with less occurrence?


Oh ... Absolutely! So long as the discussion doesn't start with some gender specific prohibition.


Which of these statements do you mean? Absolutely we have the right to discuss it on its own merits, which means discussing it only? or we do not have the right to discuss it on its own merits because doing so inherently requires exclusion of all other lesser cases...


But you say here:

quote:

Originally posted by Kweli4Real:

The fact that males inflict the majority of the abuse is completely beside the point.


This would make twice that you've expressed that discussing the more prevalent abuse of men against women is not important enough to discuss on its own...

Do you hold this position with all things or just women?

If white against black racism were more prevalent than what is perceived as black against white racism, could the former ever be discussed without discussing the lattter?

quote:
Be honest with us, if not yourself ... why is it so important to you that men be the exclusive evil-doers and women, the exclusive victims? 19


The majority of evil doers in cases of rape and abuse are men.. it is a fact and not personal.. and it is something you admit... so discussing male violence against women would necissitate not only excluding woman on man violence comparable to man on woman violence but also women on women violence.. woman on man violence in general... parent on child violence.. government on citizenry violence... citienzry on government violence.. nation on nation violence... human on cosmos violence... black on white violence.. white on black violence.. stranger on stranger violence... self inflicted violence.. human on animal violence.. animal on human violence.. human on nature violence... nature violence... etc...

I think it only fair to say that it can be discussed to the exclusion of other types of violence...


quote:
originally posted by Rowe:

And perhaps it is because Kweli is a man that he is not sensitive to our position in this matter.



I don't think so... only narcissistic men/women.. religious zealots... people who argue for the sake of arguing... and abusers are the only ones I know of that take such an insensitive position and passively enable abusers... although they reject violence against women they state it as a caveat as in "oh by the way, that aint right"... to other forms of abuse and are incapable of discussing it on its own merits ...

I know plenty of men that are not offended personally by the discussion of women being beaten and killed by men... and have no need to inject other topics lest they feel personally attacked.. but are sensitive and encouraging even.. Kresge is an exampleof such a person (on this board)... and he is a man...

Btw: I posted a link to an organization of men that distinctly addresses that addressing this issue does not inherently demonize ALL men... I think Kweli and some others may feel that way...

and the stories in the article are beyond horrific.. and I do wonder whether men like this are capable of being helped.. it seems like the women would be human guinea pigs in the test... Frown
I'm not even going to read through the rest of this thread. I read Ms. K's "Wow" comment followed be Ms. Rowe's complete mischaracterization of what I wrote.

I'm done. I will allow you to make men the exclusive demon and women the exclusive victim of abuse.

Which is really, really sad because I doubt there is a person on board who is more of an advocate for non-violence than me.
quote:
Originally posted by Kweli4Real:

My point is, has been and always will be that violence is violence, whether the perpetrator is male or female. The fact that males inflict the majority of the abuse is completely beside the point.



Kweli this seems very important to you and i say that because you mention it nearly every time we get into a discussion about domestic violence. I'm genuinely interested in why you view it as beside the point? Confused

I mean, i understand the need to refrain from villifying ALL males, but insisting that male violence is beside the point seems to diminish the sheer volume of violent incidents including DEATH perpetrated by males.

Is acknowledging this aspect of male behavior painful?
quote:
Originally posted by Kweli4Real:

I'm done. I will allow you to make men the exclusive demon and women the exclusive victim of abuse.




If 70-80% of domestic violent acts are perpetrated by males (i don't know if that stat is accurate or not), how can the women on the board be making men the exclusive demons?

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