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quote:
Originally posted by Kweli4Real:
[I know this is not gender specific, but] ...

Ladies, stop trying to put my name on your insecurities. I am not your serially cheating father, brother or ex.

Or, if you must, acknowledge that your insecurity is your insecurity.

And, while I'm at it ...

Ladies, regarding that complicating thought, before you say or do anything, asking yourself the following question will make your relationships go much more smoothly:

"Is this complicating thought a hill that I'd be okay with my relationship dying on?"

If the answer is yes, and the relationship dies, move on. It was your decision. Accept it. If the answer is anything other than yes, drop it. But I guess that is what grown folks do.


ohsnap...appl...I have to agree with the above...

My gripe is simple: "Say what you ACTUALLY mean." Just say it, don't try to make it a metaphor...which when given are way off base and can't even be related to the actual subject...just say that ish! Make it as easy as possible...as said before we are not mind readers...I skipped that class! Be blunt...WE ARE! Don't try to give me hints and clues...just say what is on your mind...I appreciate directness...
Something that bothers me a lot is hearing women - black women - talking about how they need brothas to understand what they go through every day... and then they seem to be absolutely clueless about what life is like for black men...

I had this this thought again reading the thread

http://africanamerica.org/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/169708...851036093#2851036093

in Dating & Relationships ... and part of me agrees with the ladies... but another part of me thinks they really don't have a clue...
quote:
BigJu"Say what you ACTUALLY mean." Just say it, don't try to make it a metaphor...which when given are way off base and can't even be related to the actual subject...just say that ish!


yeah I agree... men do it all the time... and here's a perfect example... Big Grin
quote:
Kweli4Real:
"Is this complicating thought a hill that I'd be okay with my relationship dying on?"

If the answer is yes, and the relationship dies, move on. It was your decision. Accept it. If the answer is anything other than yes, drop it. But I guess that is what grown folks do.
quote:
Originally posted by folobatuyi:
quote:
Originally posted by art_gurl:
Not an excuse to get nasty... but what things bug you about women?



Why bother.....it won't change a thing, now will it?

now why do men always think women are out to change men? some of you are perfect as you are... tongue
it's interesting - to me anyway - to see how men 'perceive' women... says a lot about their powers of perception... or lack of. Smile
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quote:
Originally posted by art_gurl:
quote:
Originally posted by folobatuyi:
quote:
Originally posted by art_gurl:
Not an excuse to get nasty... but what things bug you about women?



Why bother.....it won't change a thing, now will it?

now why do men always think women are out to change men? some of you are perfect as you are... tongue
it's interesting - to me anyway - to see how men 'perceive' women... says a lot about their powers of perception... or lack of. Smile
.


Maybe we men think women want to change men because it's a challenge for them, plus I've eavesdropped conversations of women, and watching programs where women fall in love with some scoundrel (who likes the sorry ass way he is) and telling her girlfriends, "I can change him." Always trying to change some guy that they're attracted to (whether it's a gay guy they want to "straighten out", or change a thug into an angel) they want to mold these guys into their personal tastes.

Art_gurl, it's not some mere rumor. It really happens.

You never see women trying to change good guys into thugs. Maybe that's why IMO, they have the good guys as just their friends, because they're afraid if the good guy gets more intimate, they might lose him to someone who'd really appreciate him...maybe.
quote:
Originally posted by Huey:
quote:
Originally posted by art_gurl:
quote:
Originally posted by folobatuyi:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by art_gurl:
Not an excuse to get nasty... but what things bug you about women?



Why bother.....it won't change a thing, now will it?

now why do men always think women are out to change men? some of you are perfect as you are... tongue
it's interesting - to me anyway - to see how men 'perceive' women... says a lot about their powers of perception... or lack of. Smile
.


quote:
HUEY: Maybe we men think women want to change men because it's a challenge for them .... Always trying to change some guy that they're attracted to (whether it's a gay guy they want to "straighten out", or change a thug into an angel) they want to mold these guys into their personal tastes.

and what guys let themselves be molded anyhoo? so nothing for you to worry about!

quote:
Art_gurl, it's not some mere rumor. It really happens.

I know what you're saying, but usually women are not being sinister... merely trying to adjust an element of a man's behaviour... that needs fixing... laugh usually the part that helps keep a relationship and communication on track. Smile

quote:
You never see women trying to change good guys into thugs. Maybe that's why IMO, they have the good guys as just their friends, because they're afraid if the good guy gets more intimate, they might lose him to someone who'd really appreciate him...maybe.

oooh ouch! of course there are good guys that women want - dang I do - but they're always in the wrong darn place at the wrong darn time... or hanging off another gurl's arm, LOL! Or... they have some darn issue or other... better stop (!) Big Grin
quote:
You never see women trying to change good guys into thugs. Maybe that's why IMO, they have the good guys as just their friends, because they're afraid if the good guy gets more intimate, they might lose him to someone who'd really appreciate him...maybe.


I've acutally heard/seen this one...

I worked with two ladies and one of them shared the others secret...

The lady – in her 40's with two children – had an affair on her husband. Seems that the husband was to much of a good, husband, father and all around nice guy. The husband wasn't very much of a handy man so she had an affair because I guess she wanted someone a little more "macho".

And they say men do stupid, selfish trifling things
I guess this would mostly apply to non-thuggish dudes, especially those who several platonic friendships with women:

Why do women always treat the "good guy" male friend like their own private eunuch or their "buddy", until the guy finds someone who loves him back, then all of sudden they either don't like him anymore or they don't like his girlfriend?

I've seen it happen to a roommate of mine in college. It's also happened to me. I was the "buddy" to a bunch of women I ate lunch with. I see a girl who I'm attracted to, and I get to know her and talk to her, now all of a sudden these girls turn into shrews and give me this look as if to say:

HOW DARE YOU FIND A WOMAN THAT LIKES YOU BACK ROMANTICALLY, AFTER ALL THIS TIME WE INVESTED IN REJECTING YOUR PROPOSITIONS! upset nono

It's like they're ticked off that a woman outside their little clique, had feelings for me, and now they're mad at me to be attracted her--no longer their eunuch. It's like a flip side of the Life cereal commercial. Two hungry kids seeing a bowl of cereal, but too afraid to eat it. They give it to Mikey; he eats the cereal, and now they want some cereal.

Now that usually what happens when women find a man attractive. They don't see him as attractive until they see other women around him. People wonder why Hugh Hefner keeps on getting hot women. He keeps getting women (for over 50 years) because other women find him attractive, (aside from being, attentive to them, being [somewhat] classy and his wealth) and so on and so on...

Now before I get a rebuttal from the feminists about how Hef gets women by exploiting them and flaunts his money...let me break it down.

Michael Dell ($10 Billion) and Bill Gates ($47 billion) are TWO of the richest men in the world. They have BILLIONS more than Hefner (between $700 Million-$1.5 billion), and yet you don't see them surrounded by several women. Granted, if a lonely man suddenly acquire a billion dollars, he will never have to worry about trying to find women. Women will find him.

Also, Hefner isn't clubbing 20-year-old over the head with a club and dragging them out of their dorm room and into the Playboy mansion and take their pictures. It's usually So it's more than just "all about the Benjamins."

Now going back to my original rant, instead of getting the Life cereal treatment, I got the flip side of it...just a lonely wet soggy bowl of cereal. Want to eat the cereal, but don't want to be Mikey.

Instead of them being attracted to me because I was seeing someone, they were mad at me, maybe b/c in their eyes I must've betrayed them or rejected them b/c a woman outside their clique, saw me as boyfriend material before they did.
quote:
Originally posted by Huey:
I guess this would mostly apply to non-thuggish dudes, especially those who several platonic friendships with women:

Why do women always treat the "good guy" male friend like their own private eunuch or their "buddy", until the guy finds someone who loves him back, then all of sudden they either don't like him anymore or they don't like his girlfriend?

It's because the "good guy" is too accomodating. Your analogy is correct, they do see him as their own "private eunuch" because that's the way he behaves. He literally acts as if he's been castrated. If you examine these so called "platonic relationships", you'll find them to be heavily one sided. He's just too happy to be there, to have the little bit of attention that is thrown his way.

Would he be spending so much time with them if he had some romantic engagement to attend to? Of course not. Women in this situation understand it perfectly (although they love to claim ignorance). They've been getting all this male energy without reciprocating anything. Why would they be happy about giving that up?
quote:
Originally posted by Black Viking:
quote:
Originally posted by Huey:
I guess this would mostly apply to non-thuggish dudes, especially those who several platonic friendships with women:

Why do women always treat the "good guy" male friend like their own private eunuch or their "buddy", until the guy finds someone who loves him back, then all of sudden they either don't like him anymore or they don't like his girlfriend?

It's because the "good guy" is too accomodating. Your analogy is correct, they do see him as their own "private eunuch" because that's the way he behaves. He literally acts as if he's been castrated. If you examine these so called "platonic relationships", you'll find them to be heavily one sided. He's just too happy to be there, to have the little bit of attention that is thrown his way.

Would he be spending so much time with them if he had some romantic engagement to attend to? Of course not. Women in this situation understand it perfectly (although they love to claim ignorance). They've been getting all this male energy without reciprocating anything. Why would they be happy about giving that up?

Yes.... Yes.... I know I'm in the "Den"....

(Virtue rolling her eyes at her own hypocrisy... whaeva.... smile)


May I ask.... why doesn't he just be honest about his intentions..... lay it on the table....

that way no one is in the dark......

and she can let him know that she truly isn't interested.... or perhaps is just reserved about her feelings......

also.....

having a male platonic relationship..... I'm learning..... has benefits.....

like a father or a brother..... you are able to have a man balance your thinking and emotions without degrading your integrity......

it's nice....

and rare.....


Peace,
Virtue
quote:
Originally posted by virtue:
Yes.... Yes.... I know I'm in the "Den"....

Welcome back, pretty lady. hat

quote:
Originally posted by virtue:
(Virtue rolling her eyes at her own hypocrisy... whaeva.... smile)

Razz

quote:
Originally posted by virtue:
May I ask.... why doesn't he just be honest about his intentions..... lay it on the table....

Men are almost always honest about their intentions toward women. If fact, the vast majority of the time their intentions are completely transparent.

Women, on the other hand, are masters at hiding their intentions.

quote:
Originally posted by virtue:
that way no one is in the dark......

No one is in the dark... except for the man.

quote:
Originally posted by virtue:
and she can let him know that she truly isn't interested.... or perhaps is just reserved about her feelings......

Women never do this. At least not in any clear cut way that cannot be misinterpreted. Often women will say they are not interested and then behave as if they are. Compare this to a man. If a man has no interest in a woman, he will not do anything that could be misinterpreted that way. He may even pay her no mind at all.

Often these platonic relationships are born by a woman trying to have the best of every world. For example, a woman has a platonic friend that she knows has always been interested in her (and they always know... I'm not falling for any innocent denials here), but she has no interest him. Furthermore, she's not even available because she has a boyfriend. However, whenever she has a fight with her boyfriend, she runs to cry on the shoulder of her platonic friend. After he gives her the support and concern that her boyfriend wouldn't give her, she says "thank you" (they are always polite, they want this resource for later), and then runs right back into the arms of the man who pissed her off in the first place.

This is the very definition of a user... using men for what she wants from them, and not giving a damn about what they want or need.

quote:
Originally posted by virtue:
like a father or a brother..... you are able to have a man balance your thinking and emotions without degrading your integrity......

Familial relationships are entirely different because they are off limits. Everone knows exactly where they stand, so you always get more honesty from your family than you will from anyone else.
Nuttin' bugs me about women, I luv 'em. All this stuff that got some of you cats twisted I don't get that from the women I see. But it seems like ya'll lookin' for a woman. I don't want one woman and I tell them from the door. When I'm out with you I'm out with you. But when I'm not out with you I am out with somebody else but you can come too.
quote:
quote:
Originally posted by Black Viking:
quote:
Originally posted by virtue:
Yes.... Yes.... I know I'm in the "Den"....

Welcome back, pretty lady. hat
Why, thank you girl

quote:
quote:
Originally posted by virtue:
May I ask.... why doesn't he just be honest about his intentions..... lay it on the table....

quote:
Men are almost always honest about their intentions toward women. If fact, the vast majority of the time their intentions are completely transparent.

Women, on the other hand, are masters at hiding their intentions.
I hope you are not saying that men are honest and women are deceptive......

quote:
quote:
Originally posted by virtue:
and she can let him know that she truly isn't interested.... or perhaps is just reserved about her feelings......

Women never do this.
Unfortunately this is a gross overgeneralization and misrepresentation of women....... I'm disappointed BV......
quote:
At least not in any clear cut way that cannot be misinterpreted. Often women will say they are not interested and then behave as if they are.
Maybe this is your and perhaps a few others experience

quote:
compare this to a man. If a man has no interest in a woman, he will not do anything that could be misinterpreted that way.
This is simply not true.....

Many men will play interested until he gets sex..... and never let the woman know that's all he wanted her for..... and then I have to counsel the women after they feel used.....



quote:
Often these platonic relationships are born by a woman trying to have the best of every world. For example, a woman has a platonic friend that she knows has always been interested in her (and they always know... I'm not falling for any innocent denials here), but she has no interest him. Furthermore, she's not even available because she has a boyfriend. However, whenever she has a fight with her boyfriend, she runs to cry on the shoulder of her platonic friend. After he gives her the support and concern that her boyfriend wouldn't give her, she says "thank you" (they are always polite, they want this resource for later), and then runs right back into the arms of the man who pissed her off in the first place.

This is the very definition of a user...
Again...... if the man is interested in being more than a friend then he should say so...... otherwise he will be looked at as a friend........ and there's nothing wrong with that....... but because a woman cries to a man and seeks comfort in him does not mean she's using him......
quote:
using men for what she wants from them, and not giving a damn about what they want or need.
After a man states his needs...... and she blatantly ignores them...... then you may characterize this as such...... until then..... it is naught but conjecture dear friend.....

quote:
quote:
Originally posted by virtue:
like a father or a brother..... you are able to have a man balance your thinking and emotions without degrading your integrity......

Familial relationships are entirely different because they are off limits. Everone knows exactly where they stand, so you always get more honesty from your family than you will from anyone else.
the key word here was like a father or brother....... and unfortunately..... family is not always honest, platonic or trustworthy..... I meant in the sense of what family is "supposed" to represent.......

Peace,
Virtue
quote:
Originally posted by virtue:
I hope you are not saying that men are honest and women are deceptive......

When it comes to romantic intentions... that's exactly what I'm saying. In the realm of romance, women have more games to play than Parker Brothers.

quote:
quote:
Originally posted by virtue:
and she can let him know that she truly isn't interested.... or perhaps is just reserved about her feelings......

Women never do this.
quote:
Unfortunately this is a gross overgeneralization and misrepresentation of women....... I'm disappointed BV......

No, it's not. When has a woman ever used the words "I'm not interested"?

It doesn't happen. That phrase is not in their vocabulary. The only way to determine a woman's interest is by her actions, not by anything she says or doesn't say.

quote:
quote:
At least not in any clear cut way that cannot be misinterpreted. Often women will say they are not interested and then behave as if they are.
Maybe this is your and perhaps a few others experience

Well, we are discussing men's experience, are we not? Where do you think the term "leading on" came from. I assure you, men did not invent the term to label a phenomenon that does not exist.

quote:
quote:
compare this to a man. If a man has no interest in a woman, he will not do anything that could be misinterpreted that way.
This is simply not true.....

Many men will play interested until he gets sex..... and never let the woman know that's all he wanted her for..... and then I have to counsel the women after they feel used.....

Yes, men will lie to get what they want... but what they want is never in question. For a woman to protect herself from this is rather simple. All she has to do is hold out for a commitment. But, for a man to protect himself from the mercenaries, users, and psycos of the world is far more complicated.

quote:
but because a woman cries to a man and seeks comfort in him does not mean she's using him......

Not true. Where does the man turn for comfort? Certainly not to her. She's giving the best of what she has to her relationship. So, when he's in need, he's left out in the cold... just like all of her other platonic friends.

quote:
quote:
using men for what she wants from them, and not giving a damn about what they want or need.
After a man states his needs...... and she blatantly ignores them...... then you may characterize this as such...... until then..... it is naught but conjecture dear friend.....

Again, men's intentions are transparent. Women only pretend to not see them when they think it is in their best interest to do so.

quote:
I meant in the sense of what family is "supposed" to represent.......

The only way for this to happen is if there is no sexual tension. That is normal for family, and possible with other men (but hardly a common occurence).
quote:
Originally posted by ddouble:
Quick questions virtue (I hope you are still around to answer them):

Ahhhhhh ddouble.... that Libra thing???? NOPE! grrrrrr....... lol

quote:
Do you consider being coy & demure as game playing?
coy- do you mean as "playful"? No..... do you mean coy as "shy"? No.... I'm assuming by game playing you mean trying to deliberately con someone romantically? If so, of course not..... why does being playful (as opposed to "playing") and being shy mean you're trying to trick someone?


demure- do you mean demure as "modest"? No...... do you mean demure as "reserved"? No...... why should being modest and reserved mean you're trying to trick someone?


quote:
Do you consider knowing your feelings (as a woman), but being reserved with them game playing?

Depends on the situation...... and the intention behind being reserved.....

a woman may feel affected by someone who she knows is no good for her...... and when she is around him she will reserve her feelings..... taking your emotions seriously is a valuable thing..... you don't just let down your guard for every man that quickens your pulse.....

you'd have no dignity left dear friend....

I would advise the same of men.....



Peace,
Virtue
quote:
Originally posted by virtue:
quote:
Originally posted by ddouble:
Quick questions virtue (I hope you are still around to answer them):

Ahhhhhh ddouble.... that Libra thing???? NOPE! grrrrrr....... lol

quote:
Do you consider being coy & demure as game playing?
coy- do you mean as "playful"? No..... do you mean coy as "shy"? No.... I'm assuming by game playing you mean trying to deliberately con someone romantically? If so, of course not..... why does being playful (as opposed to "playing") and being shy mean you're trying to trick someone?


demure- do you mean demure as "modest"? No...... do you mean demure as "reserved"? No...... why should being modest and reserved mean you're trying to trick someone?


quote:
Do you consider knowing your feelings (as a woman), but being reserved with them game playing?

Depends on the situation...... and the intention behind being reserved.....

a woman may feel affected by someone who she knows is no good for her...... and when she is around him she will reserve her feelings..... taking your emotions seriously is a valuable thing..... you don't just let down your guard for every man that quickens your pulse.....

you'd have no dignity left dear friend....

I would advise the same of men.....



Peace,
Virtue


Thanks for the responses. I wasn't asking leading questions or trying to bait you. I know that sometimes behaviors are misread along gender lines. Just trying to do some translation. hat


Back to the venting: laugh

Why do some aggressive women pretend to be passive at the onset of a relationship, then reveal their true selves later? Aren't you setting false expectations for the man when you do this?
Thanks everyone for elaborating my last post. You all have no idea how long I've been wanting to get that off my chest.

That's why I hate that show "Girlfriends." William is always the eunuch in the harem of Joan, Lynn, Maya and Toni. Hell, even his girlfriend at the time (Monica) has mentioned it in an episode. IMO, those "girlfriends" don't even deserve a guy like William, neither as a friend, a boyfriend or a husband, 'cause they'll use him.

And if Joan doesn't admit the she loves William (since that's the only man crazy enough to stay with her), William needs to break away from those harpies, move on and find a woman that likes straight, black male, Republican, lawyers that likes Star Trek and Civil War memorialbilia.
quote:
Originally posted by jazzdog:
Since we can be nasty about this I'm going to go there!

Why is that women love men to go down on them and then give us the "what the F*** look" when we expect the same in return.

Ya'll did say to get nasty Big Grin




Hmmm...I wondered about that one....but the things I have heard is "it is not natural" or "it can lead to cancer"
quote:
Originally posted by HonestBrother:
Something that bothers me a lot is hearing women - black women - talking about how they need brothas to understand what they go through every day... and then they seem to be absolutely clueless about what life is like for black men...

..but another part of me thinks they really don't have a clue...


Words so true, HB!
quote:
Originally posted by art_gurl:
now why do men always think women are out to change men? some of you are perfect as you are... tongue
it's interesting - to me anyway - to see how men 'perceive' women... says a lot about their powers of perception... or lack of. Smile
.


Art gurl,
I wasn't really referring to he fact hat ladies, particulary sistas are out to change a man's character; rather, i was referring to the point of why should men talk about the things that make them mad about ladies.
But on expanding on your suggestion, I think I can speak for most men that there is hardly any man-woman relationship that does not involve some "changing of the man" to form a better or a more-perfect-fit-of-a-man. It has been deeply ingrained in ladies from early childhood that men need changing or dressing as surplanted ino their pysche via playing with Barbie and Kenn dolls, playing house etc..
It is pretty much a given...he sad part is in real relationships, the men are not nonviable Kenn dolls. Despite the subconscious desire of ladies to recapitulate the Barbie/Kenn doll in their relationships, it just does not work as the Ken doll in question is actually a living breathing individual capable of spontaneous and independent action and thought. What is a disappoinment!
quote:
Originally posted by folobatuyi:
I think I can speak for most men that there is hardly any man-woman relationship that does not involve some "changing of the man" to form a better or a more-perfect-fit-of-a-man. It has been deeply ingrained in ladies from early childhood that men need changing or dressing as surplanted ino their pysche via playing with Barbie and Kenn dolls, playing house etc..


Felix, I've never thought about the connection between a woman wanting to change a man and her playing with Ken as a girl...This is new to me... It might also explain the rise of the female "Well, you don't need these anymore" castrators....
Last edited {1}
quote:
Originally posted by HonestBrother:
quote:
Originally posted by folobatuyi:
I think I can speak for most men that there is hardly any man-woman relationship that does not involve some "changing of the man" to form a better or a more-perfect-fit-of-a-man. It has been deeply ingrained in ladies from early childhood that men need changing or dressing as surplanted ino their pysche via playing with Barbie and Kenn dolls, playing house etc..


Felix, I've never thought about the connection between a woman wanting to change a man and her playing with Ken as a girl...This is new to me... It might also explain the rise of the female "Well, you don't need these anymore" castrators....


HB,
I could be wrong but I do remember hearing in psych class that a lot of the things we do as adults have their roots in our pyschological development during childrenhood.
quote:
Originally posted by folobatuyi:
quote:
Originally posted by art_gurl:
now why do men always think women are out to change men? some of you are perfect as you are... tongue
it's interesting - to me anyway - to see how men 'perceive' women... says a lot about their powers of perception... or lack of. Smile
.


Art gurl,
I wasn't really referring to he fact hat ladies, particulary sistas are out to change a man's character; rather, i was referring to the point of why should men talk about the things that make them mad about ladies.
But on expanding on your suggestion, I think I can speak for most men that there is hardly any man-woman relationship that does not involve some "changing of the man" to form a better or a more-perfect-fit-of-a-man. It has been deeply ingrained in ladies from early childhood that men need changing or dressing as surplanted ino their pysche via playing with Barbie and Kenn dolls, playing house etc..
It is pretty much a given...he sad part is in real relationships, the men are not nonviable Kenn dolls. Despite the subconscious desire of ladies to recapitulate the Barbie/Kenn doll in their relationships, it just does not work as the Ken doll in question is actually a living breathing individual capable of spontaneous and independent action and thought. What is a disappoinment!


hello... and ok, to respond to your post.
I posted the question not to be simply provocative, or to invite nasty comments, but to open up the topic of communication between men and women. In this instance what men find annoying (as opposed to psychologically disturbing about women) respondents can reply either light-heartedly, seriously, or analytically.

I disagree with your Ken/Barbie and inference that it is ingrained in women to mold men into something 'else'. IMO, I think that there can be no relationship worth talking about if two people can't come together and become one - at least for some of the time.

It frustrates me no end that women and men are 'hijacked' by past bad experiences, presumptions, assumptions, and feeble guess work about what the other person is thinking.

Communication is everything in a relationship. The same words, body language, etc. means different things to different people. How else can people of different sexes 'connect' beyond physically (and including physically) without at least attempting (in their relationships be it casual friendships or potentially long-term) to verbalise how they feel, what they are thinking, what they need, what they want, what they expect.... etc.

Of course both men and women are living, breathing beings with emotions, history, their own experiences. Anyone with a desire to mold someone into someone 'else' is misguided and will be disappointed. But let's not discount the fact that most people do need to change their behaviour a little - unless they are PERFECT - if not to improve themselves, then to improve their perceptiveness to others. Understanding and empathizing with others - of either sex - is not a weakness or a gift that requires a pay-off, it is a commitment to being emotionally honest... and responsible.
I hope that makes sense... I'm not trying to preach... I'm trying to apply it myself.
I don't want a partner who is emotionally numb - for his sake or mine - I want a man who is secure in himself. I want the best for 'my' man. I want him to be the best person he can me - not just for me, but for HIMSELF. If he is secure and happy in himself and wants me... that is worth more to me than someone who is insecure and wants me as a 'prop'. Hear me?
.
I think BV, HB and the others have pretty much covered the basic issues.

But communication is a two way street. And the problem isn't just with talking it's with listening. We learn how to speak but not how to listen.

But women have to be honest and accepting. No sense in asking us to open up and talk when we do we get "that's not right, or what I wanted to hear xyz". This double talks stuff is for the birds.

Example, my wife a couple of years back wanted to paint kitchen. I said I would like to wait since I know if we paint we will probably want to change other things in the kitchen – let's just plan a remodel in the next year or so. Several months later she "confesses" that she was bothered by the fact that there was a painted border in the kitchen that my ex-girlfriend had done. Needless to say we painted the kitchen...and of course we want to change other things in it
Big Grin

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