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What are your thoughts as you go through the slides? Be warned, graphic.

http://www.maafa.org/

These pictures depict a time my father and mother had to live through. We all had loved ones who lived in fear during those days. And white folks act like oh it was not so baad. Many of the people in those pictures lived long lives, many who took part actively or as observers are still living today! I wonder if they are wondering what is waiting for them after they die?

I wonder how much those people have changed?

African American Holocaust!

The truth will set you free, but first it will piss you off.

Original Post
Junebug,once again,you paint the white folk with a broad brush. I do know how hard/rough it was back then,and how bad it was back then. I have seen pictures,and read stories. So don't say "white folk say it wasn't so bad". As for "I'm sure there are others out there wanting to do the same" I am sure their are people out there like that. there are people like that all over the world. I am sure there are black racists out there that would do that to me too.
When I see current retrospectives on TV about the worse ol' days, I always wonder why they never get the perspectives of some of the white people. The group who integrated Little Rock's Central High were interviewed earlier this year on the Today Show, and I would like to hear what some of the hostile whites in the photos have to say for themselves today. All of the blacks from that class are extremely successful. I wonder how the white rioters are doing.
You don't know how it affected my parents, you have no idea!!!! You can say that you have some kind of idea but you don't know. Hell, I don't know because I grew up very different, it does not even compare. I can say I grew up in an open society as far as I knew. But my parents did not. I do know my parents say it was very hard being black during the 20's - 60's. You knew in your heart that you could be killed and not a damn thing would have been done about it. You knew that there were certain places not to go, esp at night. On the street you were totally ignored as if you did not exist. You knew that you were less than a 2nd class citizen, you were not welcome in everyday business establishments, but some of them would do business if you went to the back door and requested certain items and they would bring to you but you was not welcome inside the store. You were very afraid of cops, often they were last people you wanted to see.

You knew you had to conduct yourself a certain way in order to not draw attention from white bigots who would hurt you just for the enjoyment.

My father grew up very hard, very repressed by white people, you and I have no idea the strength it took to hold on to dignity? Some really terrible events happened in his family because of white folks in Texas and I'll leave at that. He hated white people so much that I had no idea that white people were called white until I went to school, I always heard, Cracka, Peckerwood and White Trash.

In the 70's my brothers would go to white clubs just to pick fights with whites because they picked up on my father's hatred for white people. My father made it a point to be the first black family to move into all white neighborhoods so he can claim that he was the cause of "white flight".

We moved into 3 different all white areas during the 60's and 70's just because my old man got a kick watching white folks put up "for sale" signs the next day, and eventually pack up and move ASAP.

LOL, we still laugh about it.

Man you have no idea what it was like to be black and born in 1913, my father's grandmother was born in slavery, some of you white folks want to say "well, it was not so baad" and "that was a long time ago" yet many of you was totally oblivious to the serious repression that my father and mother had deal with coming from co-generations of whites.

It was totally uncalled for!

You see, if you white people would have put aside your bigotry shortly after slavery then we would not have these issues of race today.

If reparations were paid way back when and excepted blacks as full fledge citizens way back when and allowed my parents and grandparents to compete with you for jobs and education and opportunity, we would not be talking about race in the terms we are today.

You white people are foremost responsible for the state of race relations today and because past generations of whites were either bigots or did not speak out against bigotry and just went along with the bigot program.

So don't give me that BS about blacks being bigots too because, no way we can be compared to the racism you whites practiced on my parents and grandparents and back.

This is why the resentment exists, I don't appreciate how my folks were treated! We talking about people I dearly love, my parents.

Factoid, it's a fact of life, it will pass when those living like me pass on which includes the memories of my parent's sorrows and dissappointments. We as a nation, let the ball drop on this.

We have come a long way but resentment goes when more generations pass on, it is a legacy that we as a Nation will just have to live with. It's that simple.

Take care, Junebug
quote:
Originally posted by JuneBug:
You see, if you white people would have put aside your bigotry shortly after slavery then we would not have these issues of race today.

If reparations were paid way back when and excepted blacks as full fledge citizens way back when and allowed my parents and grandparents to compete with you for jobs and education and opportunity, we would not be talking about race in the terms we are today.

You white people are foremost responsible for the state of race relations today and because past generations of whites were either bigots or did not speak out against bigotry and just went along with the bigot program.


We have come a long way but resentment goes when more generations pass on, it is a legacy that we as a Nation will just have to live with. It's that simple.

Take care, Junebug


Speaking as a white person...Junebug is right.

There are times I feel an unseen wall is between me and African Americans. Although I'm not overly fond of the "you white people" term, there is no denying or even meaningful arguement that the white race was responsible for setting the tone of race relations since way back when. The resentment and reluctance on the part of the white race is what lingers today.

By reading this site for the last several weeks, I am coming to understand more of what this resentment entails and where its origins lie. Thank you, MBM and contributing members, for providing a valuable service.

As far as the images go, the things done during lynching were truly horrible and inhumane. But what really made me want to throw up was seeing the satisfaction, excitement and sense of entitlement on the white faces. Taking one's children to such events and teaching that type of hatred to our young is beyond sick.

Junebug, I cannot imagine what it must be like to be in your shoes and see those photos.

"Unless you're sharing what you have, you don't have as much as you think you do."
Junebug,your fathers ordeal was a rough one,I am sure. But him practicing his hate towards white people,and that rubbing off on your brothers was just as bad. You said it yourself,that your brothers would go to white clubs to pick fights with whites,just because "your dads hatred for whites where picked up by them". That,in my book,is no better than how the whites treated your dad.

As for the "you don't know how it was" ,you are right. I don't KNOW how it was,ALL of us can only imagine. NOONE on this board was a slave,so none of us can compare. So your post should have read "some whites,(instead of whites) say it wasn't so bad,because I think it was bad.
BTW,those pictures are some sickening,disheartening stuff. As if the pics aren't bad enough,you have these racist assholes in the back smiling like they just killed some big game or something. I hope god really takes his revenge on these asses. And I hope that God lets those guys who died like that sit next to him and judge them.
quote:
Originally posted by Factoid:
Junebug,once again,you paint the white folk with a broad brush. I do know how hard/rough it was back then,and how bad it was back then. I have seen pictures,and read stories. So don't say "white folk say it wasn't so bad". As for "I'm sure there are others out there wanting to do the same" I am sure their are people out there like that. there are people like that all over the world. I am sure there are black racists out there that would do that to me too.


You can only assume how bad it was by looking at the pictures and reading the stories of what happened. As for the comment about white folks saying it was that not bad and some white folks still wanting to do that, if you don't believe that then neither you have your head stuck in the sand or you are being dishonest. One only has to check out some of the forum on other web sites to get a feel of the hate that people have aganist black people. I have seem statements talking about how black people should have appreciated slavery and that lynchings should still be done.

There are plenty of decent white people who are equally horrified by these images as black people, of that there is no question, I think that unless you don't have a soul anything that graphic should disgust you. I tend to judge people individually not as a group so I don't believe that all white people are evil. And while you may interpet Junebugs comments as painting a broad perspective of white people it is no different then the broad brush used to paint us.
Oh well, I guess some people never will but I'm confident that in time you will if you want to.

Factoid, as long as you keep searching for a moral equivalent, you will never understand. If for a moment you stop being so defensive perhaps you will. I'm sharing something very serious, I'm trying to get you to understand the wounds I know that exist, would you rather I not share that? You don't want me to address this subject at all? OK, let's just sweep it under the rug, right Factoid? Obviously you expect oppressed and repressed black people to just forgive and forget, and say "oh well shiyt happens I guess I'll just except my beat down from white folks during most of my adult life without anger" that is not human nature and is not realistic. It's so easy to sit there and minimize our racist past and dream up moral equivalences to make you feel better, when your people were not affected at all and perhaps benefited because of no competition from blacks in society, we are talking about my parent's man, that is where the resentment starts, my love and compassion for my parents. I don't go around with a chip on my shoulders but that does not mean I'm not pissed about how my parents were treated. Do you wish your folks had come up like mines? I doubt it; let's get real man. It's very simple to understand. People have memories, they have sorrow's and disappointments and it's impossible to go back to recover those years, that sets up resentment and hate, again, it's human nature, I'm not excusing it, it's reality. I feel we have not been contrite and regretful as a Nation, in SPIRIT, we have not directly addressed this issue. We beat around the bush and perhaps that is the best we can do. As long as white people try to dream up moral equivalences and minimize the past this issue will continue to plague our Nation. I don't know how else to put it.

Herdswoman, to be honest, looking at those pictures seems so surreal for a lack of a better word. My father's family actually had to deal with events such as that in the slide show when he was a young man. It's hard for me to understand the pain he and his family and other blacks in the area must have felt, the shock, the fear and the anger. Those repressive years and shocking events that happened during their DAY, creates lifelong turning points, and sets up and reinforces attitudes and notions that are passed down from one generation to the next as it did in my family. It's just human nature and we as a Nation have been reaping what was sowed. It will take more time to get over it. Why? Because the people who had to live under such repression are still living, those memories are still there, and they sometime share and we black children feel resentment for their ordeal. Believe me my parents and grand parents are certainly grateful that those horrifying days are gone and this is why they are able to live life without showing outward resentment, but believe me, it's there and they have shown extraordinary GRACE regarding their past. You see, it was not that long ago when if you track over lapping lives. What happened should not be measured in years but in lives.

Take care, Junebug
jazzdog,reread my post. I said nothing of the sort that "white people donn't say this,or some still hate blacks" I was the exact opposite. I said that THIS white person don't say that. Junebug said that "white people say this" I said he painted whites with a broad brush,as all don't feel that way. I also said that there are whites out there that would love to beat a brother down,as I am sure there are blacks out there that would love to beat a white guy down..


Junebug. NO,I guess I don't get it. YOU said that your dad hated whites for what whites did to him in the day,and that hate spread to his children. And you are okay with that?!?!? that is hate spreading my friend. Cut and dry. YOU said that your dad would taunt whites,to "laugh at them" and you are okay with that!??!?!

Maybe a black guy did something to a white woman. IF her children went off and beat up blacks,hated blacks,that would be okay,because of what happened to there mother?!?!? no way. it is not acceptable from your brothers either.
sorry junebug,but its true. Now your dad moving to mainly white neighborhoods,and watching them move,that is funny. I will laugh with you there. but your brothers beating up whites simply because they are white,is no different than whites going out and looking for blacks to beat up simply because they are black.
quote:
Originally posted by Factoid:
Junebug,your fathers ordeal was a rough one,I am sure. But him practicing his hate towards white people,and that rubbing off on your brothers was just as bad. You said it yourself,that your brothers would go to white clubs to pick fights with whites,just because "your dads hatred for whites where picked up by them". That,in my book,is no better than how the whites treated your dad.


With all respect, that is b.s. It would have taken a very strong black man not to hate white people back then. The AVERAGE white person in the towns where those lynchings occured was a scumbag. The AVERAGE. And you read in his post, where neighborhood after neighborhood white flight. That's appalling. But these were ordinary white folks, not some aberrant fringe group. After emancipation, blacks bent over backward to win the favor of whites. Reconstruction-era black elected leaders fought to give rights to white ex-confederates that they otherwise may not have gotten, and blacks suffered terribly as a result of that incredible naivete.

I think Junebug's right. No matter how appalled you (Factoid) may be at viewing the images and hearing the stories, the level of understanding in the black community is paramount to this never happening again.
I can see why his dad hates white guys. Well,sorta. His dad should be angry at the white guys who did the racist things towards him,but the white guys who did nothing wrong,if his dad hates them too,then his dad is a racist. You all can justify what you want,but his dad hates white people= racist. his brothers hunt down white people to beat down=racist. You can't hold against all people what a few people did wrong. thats the point of my response.
Factoid said:
quote:
YOU said that your dad hated whites for what whites did to him in the day,and that hate spread to his children. And you are okay with that?!?!?


I'm not OK with it but I understand it. Too bad that it ever started.

Can you understand why white people lynched innocent black people? Both of us know the answer to that unnecessary question I put to you, just like the one you asked me "are you OK with that?". Your question deliberately misses the whole point of my posts.

You are desperately trying to equalize the repression white people projected on blacks that resulted in resentment black people harbored and passed down.One is not equal to the other. One begets the other, which is the point.The knowledge of what happened is enough to spark resentment, it's human nature.

quote:
You can't hold against all people what a few people did wrong. thats the point of my response.


>scratching my head< where did I say ALL WHITE people? You said that, not me. I said white people, it's up to the reader to determine the amount.

It appears to me that you are being overly defensive. I'm just trying to explain where and why resentment is harbored in the context of the past to the present.

My father was typical among black men of his time. I would say the highlight of the 40's for him was WW2 when he went to Burma. He was proud of his military service. If you asked my father, he would say he lived a good life, with the limitations. He started 2 churches, both are still in operation. He was not a perfect man as I pointed out and I think the reason he became a preacher was to keep his resentment in check. He did whatever necessary to make the best of it. He was a great provider. My older brothers picked up other ideas from him like serving this country.

The 2 brothers who went white boy hunting toured Vietnam and were there at the same time for a bit, one Army the other Air Force. I have another older brother who was injured in the Korean conflict. My father and my older bothers supported the USA in war, voluntarily, despite the resentment they harbored.

If Pops knew my brothers were going out white boy hunting, he would have stopped them and he probably did and would have been disappointed too. I'm not sure of all the details I just know that it happened. I included that information to highlight where and why the resentment is harbored.

I'm moving on, by your comments you are deliberately missing the spirit and the point of my comments. That's OK, no need to become up in arms again, it's not an easy subject to discuss.

Take Care, Junebug

[This message was edited by JuneBug on August 29, 2002 at 10:22 PM.]
Okay juneubug,I now see your point. I can see where the resentment came from. I was taking your first point,the way you put it,was sounding like you where okay with all of that. I understand.

As for "are you okay with that" question shot back at me. No,I'm not okay with it. but your saying "white people" is just the same as saying "all white people" If I said "black people are jerks",wouldn't that be painting all black people?

I have repect for your families military service,that support is appreciated.
quote:
Originally posted by Factoid:
NO,Vox,you once again misread my post. The fact I am pointing out,is HIS SONS,who themselves where not victims,went out "WHITE HUNTING". Looking for whites to beat up. That is hate crimes.


I suppose you have a point. It's like my old high school teacher who said he and his neighborhood buddies would beat up the "li'l Nazi Twins" in his neighborhood, to contribute to "the war effort," back when he was a kid in the 40s. Those were definitely "hate crimes." But multiply it by the level of PERSONAL affronts that Junebug's folks had to deal with, and you're on a whole new level. You're right, they were racially motivated crimes. But I don't know if I could convict them under a hate crimes statute. Especially back then, so close to some of the worst racism imaginable, black anti-white sentiment was the product of frustration about white treatment; again, by the average white person.

As a society, we couldn't excuse his brothers' actions as actions. However, though I hate to admit it, under the circumstances Junebug describes, I'd have to be excused from the jury pool if a hate crimes statute were implicated.
quote:
Originally posted by Junebug:>scratching my head< where did I say ALL WHITE people? You said that, not me. I said white people, it's up to the reader to determine the amount.


I beg to differ. To say white people, that makes me think of the white race as a whole-all of them. Likewise when someone says black people, I automaticly think they are talking about me too.

------------------------------
The Lord is on my side;I will not fear:what can man do unto me?
(Psalms 118:6)


To know me is to love me!

I can identify with many of the things you are saying, including the fact that too many of us want to say "well, it was in the past, it's forgotten now". My dad recently celebrated his 80th birthday. He often tells us of growing up in mississippi where

as a boy he had to stop and put his head down when walking on the roads so white men would not taunt him/provoke him for an excuse to kill him.

black schools in his town could only go to 8th grade - so he had to walk to school in another county to finish high school

during WWII, 7 of his older brothers were drafted and when his draft card came, my grandfather tried to tell the gov't rep that he needed my father, the youngest of his boys to stay home and help run the farm or else his family would starve to death since 7 other boys had been drafted - they took my father, a teenager, anyway. (my father says that only 3 boys per family should have been taken)-but it is a blessing that all 8 made it back home alive - and then migrated north.

consequently my grandfather's farm did not produce for several years - robbing a self sufficient family of a means of income.

subsequently my grandfather lost a small restaurant he ran, a grist mill, and some land due to "some white men came around and said we needed to pay them money or lose it all"

brown v topeka occured in '54 but schools in my town were not desegregated until 70's, making me the only person out of 6 children in my family to attend desegreted schools.

As a result, wealth that should have been passed on to my father and to myself has dissipated due to skin color.

It's not in the past...we live with the consequences on a daily basis.


I'm sure amadou diallo would agree.
Some of my greatest memories were sitting on my grandmothers porch in Mississippi and hearing about where we came from.
Some of the discussions and memories were difficult to grasp. My dad talked about coming home on leave and getting hit with a billy club b/c the policeman thought he was being an "uppity nigger".

When my dad retired in 82, he came home from Germany and my little brother and sisters were faced with segregated homecomings...in 1982?

Visiting my other grandmother in the country, my mom would remark how my grandfather and great grand father used to own most of the land we were driving through, and how it was swindled from them. They knew what was going on but to keep violence away from the family they let it go.

I never grasped it as a kid but when we would move my parents would meet another black couple and the comment was always the same "I'm glad you're here"!

My dad just recently started revealing to me some of what he endured while being black in the military in the 50's -80's, how some awards he was recommended for in 'nam were down graded and given to others for lesser achievements.

When I do have children they will know what it was like and that they can never forget.
Mspretty, I can appreciate what you and Factoid are saying and it's noted smile. When explaining such issues as racism, I'll try to quantify along those lines better.

Ocatchings
Negrospiritual

Thanks for sharing. Reading those stories are very interesting. I have many stories regarding my family's time in those days and after hearing what happened to them I'm amaze at how they take it with grace. I guess being raised around those kinds of social conditions you are accustomed to just cutting your lost and moving on.

JuneBug, big grin
This post reminds me of a conversation I once had with a Jewish man. He told me that Black folks just need to "get over it" and that all these things were in the past.

Of course I told him that I disagreed about these things being a part of the past; but rather, a continuing drama for most Black people. He continued to say that we needed to "leave the past in the past."

The funny thing was that when I reminded him of the Jewish mantra, regarding the Holocast, "Never again" he called me an anti-semite.
Junebug,
That is probably one thing I will never understand.... how some people see and go through these things and keep such strong faith! I guess I am blessed in a sense as my dad with all his hatred for whites never let it be totally known how he felt. (I'm not sure it's hate or hurt) I recently found out just how deep some of his pain ran and it really hurt to see my dad start crying for some of the issues, but through it all he told me to continue to trust in GOD and to continually pray; pretty much the same message mom all of my realatives send out to the family.
I'm glad I didn't meet the guy that called you an anti-Semite. If he would've called me that, I'd have to call him a hypocrite. Why tell someone to get over a past whose participants never apologized for their hateful actions, then get upset when somebody tells them the same thing.

I hope you cussed him out, or at least show the errors of his thinking.
In fact, I laughed and asked him to explain the difference between our positions; we are both of a people that experienced unspeakable horrors, and these horrors impact our pysche. He could only agree.

But to press his "let it go" point", I asked him whether he personally knew of anyone that within the last 30 years, had been denied employment because of being Jewish; he could not. When I asked him whether he knew of any Jewish person that within the last 5 years, had been stopped by the police and (without being asked for identification) asked "What are you doing in this neighborhood?"; he could not. When I asked him whether he knew of anybody within the past week that had had a woman stop in the middle of the sidewalk (in broad daylight), clutch her purse and stare at them until they passed, simply because they were Jewish; again, he could not.

I then asked him, "Whose wounds are freshiest."

I'm sorry, I have real problems with folks telling me that they "feel our pain. But get over it."

We'll (I'll) get over it when the wounds cease to bleed. And, in order for that to happen, the wounds must stop being inflicted.

I can pretty much closet the memories that my father passed to me about his treatment; but, I can't "just get over it."

I'll get over it when I no longer have to watch 5 houses go up for sell within 2 weeks of our moving into our home home in a neighborhood that had not had a house for sale in the previous 2 years. [I checked. We were looking to purchase in a high ownership, low turn-over neighborhood.]

I'll get over it when I no longer have to explain to my 7 year old daughter why she, the other Black child and the Black Hispanic Child, were the only kids not to be invited to the birthday party at the Country Club whose 15th fairway is less than a firm 6 iron (or a light 5) from our front door.

I'll get over it when the past ceases to play out in our present.
quote:
Originally posted by Kweli4Real:
In fact, I laughed and asked him to explain the difference between our positions; we are both of a people that experienced unspeakable horrors, and these horrors impact our pysche. He could only agree.

But to press his "let it go" point", I asked him whether he personally knew of anyone that within the last 30 years, had been denied employment because of being Jewish; he could not.
I KNOW PLENTY OF JEWS WHO WERE DENIED EMPLOYMENT BECAUSE THEY ARE WHITE, AND THUS SUBJECT TO AFFIRMATIVA ACTION.
When I asked him whether he knew of any Jewish person that within the last 5 years, had been stopped by the police and (without being asked for identification) asked "What are you doing in this neighborhood?"; he could not.
ACTUALLY I KNOW A JEW WHO WAS STOPPED BY THE POLICE IN A BLACK NEIGHBORHOOD BECAUSE THEY THOUGHT HE WAS THERE TO BUY DRUGS. IN FACT, HE WAS VISITING FRIENDS, AND NO DRUGS WERE INVOLVED.
When I asked him whether he knew of anybody within the past week that had had a woman stop in the middle of the sidewalk (in broad daylight), clutch her purse and stare at them until they passed, simply because they were Jewish; again, he could not.
OF COURSE NOT; JEWS DON'T COMMIT THAT KIND OF CRIME. THEY'RE MORE PREVALENT IN THE WHITE COLLAR CRIMES, SUCH AS SECURITY FRAUD. MANY PEOPLE HAVE REFUSED TO DO BUSINESS WITH ME BECAUSE THEY FEAR THAT I'M A "SHEYSTER."
I then asked him, "Whose wounds are freshiest."
I DON'T KNOW ANYONE WHO WAS A SLAVE, BUT I KNOW PLENTY OF FOLKS WHO SURVIVED CONCENTRATION CAMPS.
I'm sorry, I have real problems with folks telling me that they "feel our pain. But get over it."

We'll (I'll) get over it when the wounds cease to bleed. And, in order for that to happen, the wounds must stop being inflicted.

I can pretty much closet the memories that my father passed to me about his treatment; but, I can't "just get over it."

I'll get over it when I no longer have to watch 5 houses go up for sell within 2 weeks of our moving into our home home in a neighborhood that had not had a house for sale in the previous 2 years. [I checked. We were looking to purchase in a high ownership, low turn-over neighborhood.]
ONCE AGAIN, BLACKS HAVE TO PROACTIVELY TAKE OWNERSHIP OF THE PROBLEM BY ADDRESSING THE HIGH INCIDENCE OF VIOLENT CRIME THAT STATISTICALLY FOLLOWS THEM JUST LIKE JEWS HAVE TO PROACTIVELY TAKE OWNERSHIP OF THE LACK OF BUSINESS ETHICS THAT STATISTICALLY MAR THEIR COMMUNITY.
I'll get over it when I no longer have to explain to my 7 year old daughter why she, the other Black child and the Black Hispanic Child, were the only kids not to be invited to the birthday party at the Country Club whose 15th fairway is less than a firm 6 iron (or a light 5) from our front door.

I'll get over it when the past ceases to play out in our present.
ONLY YOU CAN CONTROL YOUR PRESENT. WHY LET YOUR ENEMIES CONTROL YOU? IF YOU ALLOW YOUR HEART AND MIND TO BECOME OCCUPIED TERRITORIES, DON'T BLAME OTHERS, FOR THEY ARE MERELY OCCUPYING WHILE YOU ARE THE ONE WHO IS ALLOWING. I KNOW MY IDEAS MAY SOUND CORNY, OR EVEN CRUDE, BUT THEY'VE WORKED IN MY LIFE, AND IN THE LIVES OF MANY OF THOSE CLOSEST TO ME.

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