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Question? Since this subject inevitably has to do with "the child" who is being parented, would anyone say that the majority of these these badly parented children come from two-parent homes? Single-parent homes? Or maybe no-parent homes (being raised by other family members or in the system? Is it even? Or are just as many from one environment or the other? Confused

BLACK by NATURE, PROUD by CHOICE.
Free your mind, and the rest will follow.
Reply to Sunnubian:

"People should be free, as God intended people to be."

That is a cultural belief. And who is "God?" Maybe the deity that I worship goes by another name, maybe its a woman! Anyway, what freedom means to you and your culture might mean something totally different to me and my culture. Culture is a very complex entity. Some people might consider women wearing bras in European societies to be restrictive, wearing tons of make up, and devastatingly high heels restrictive. Some might say that this kind of invisible dress code is indicative of women lacking "freedom" to appear in the more comfortable ways they really wish to appear to men. Some might also say that the social pressure on American women to stay young, appear young(er) looking, and keep a "sexual magnetism" is socially restrictive and deforming their faces and body (plastic surgery), etc. is exceedingly oppressive. We can play tit-for-tat all night long on this subject. I got lots more where that came from. Instead, lets exercise some understanding here, rather than making judgemental assertions. Your attitude about traditional indigenous cultures is the very same attitudes possessed by white imperialists who pegged Africans as black and stupid jungle bunnies, with no culture, religion, or history worth keeping and/or raving about. They explained to the "jungle bunnies" that white culture is better and that they should quickly abandon their traditional ways of life for European "freedoms." Whatever. Whether or not you agree with the customs and traditions created by a people in their cultural construct, you weren't there to help develop them. You weren't there to understand all of the dynamics behind WHY it was necessary to begin these customs. Therefore, just like the ignorant and confused white man, it is NOT YOUR PLACE to judge them and damn their ways of life, especially when you don't understand all of the complexities surrounding it. And you should be ashamed of yourself that you have such judgemental and misinformed views about Africa, especially when it concerns your own people; that is, if you are black. Ashamed!

[This message was edited by Rowe on January 16, 2004 at 06:59 PM.]
Reply to Mocove:

Thank you.

Reply to Ebony Rose:

"Since this subject inevitably has to do with "the child" who is being parented, would anyone say that the majority of these these badly parented children come from two-parent homes? Single-parent homes? Or maybe no-parent homes (being raised by other family members or in the system? Is it even? Or are just as many from one environment or the other?"

Great question! Does someone have the stats or can possibly provide us with the stats on this? Cause now I'm too beat to look it up.
quote:
Originally posted by Rowe:
Reply to Sunnubian:

"People should be free, as God intended people to be."

That is a cultural belief. And who is "God?" Maybe the deity that I worship goes by another name, maybe its a woman!
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That is the premise of the only point I am trying to get across regarding married/single relationshipts----either ideology that one practices or believes in is cultural and most things that have become the cultural norm for a society, group, etc., usually has its origins rooted in religon. Therefore, to force a belief system on human beings under the threat of humiliation, hate, ostricization, etc., --the usual tactics society uses is simply wrong. I should not be able to force my religous or cultural beliefs on anyone else and no one else should be able to force theirs on me, is all I am really saying.
Also, I do not know who/what God is and I do not claim to know who or what God is (or whatever name is/could/should be referred by); as far as God is concerned, I personally do not believe God to be specifically either male or female or physically human or to possess anything/energy that is negative or any physcical human (negative human) qualities, therefore, in my opinion, it does not matter by what name you call or what name a person's religon is called by; many roads lead to the same place.
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Anyway, what freedom means to you and your culture might mean something totally different to me and my culture. Culture is a very complex entity. Some people might consider women wearing bras in European societies to be restrictive, wearing tons of make up, and devastatingly high heels restrictive. Some might say that this kind of invisible dress code is indicative of women lacking "freedom" to appear in the more comfortable ways they really wish to appear to men.
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I understand and believe that statement totally.



Some might also say that the social pressure on American women to stay young, appear young(er) looking, and keep a "sexual magnetism" is socially restrictive and deforming their faces and body (plastic surgery), etc. is exceedingly oppressive.
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I agree with you there, too, especially about the plastic surgery part, which is in my opinion the western "cleansing" of women.



We can play tit-for-tat all night long on this subject. I got lots more where that came from.
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I am not trying to play tit-for-tat, just merely conversing, I thought, or since we may not agree on every issue (and no one does), debating various viewpoints. I personally am not the type of person who expects everyone to agree with everything that I say, think, do, etc., and I don't hold it against a person personally if they do not.



Instead, lets exercise some understanding here, rather than making judgemental assertions. Your attitude about traditional indigenous cultures is the very same attitudes possessed by white imperialists who pegged Africans as black and stupid jungle bunnies, with no culture, religion, or history worth keeping and/or raving about. They explained to the "jungle bunnies" that white culture is better and that they should quickly abandon their traditional ways of life for European "freedoms." Whatever. Whether or not you agree with the customs and traditions created by a people in their cultural construct, you weren't there to help develop them. You weren't there to understand all of the dynamics behind WHY it was necessary to begin these customs. Therefore, just like the ignorant and confused white man, it is NOT YOUR PLACE to judge them and damn their ways of life, especially when you don't understand all of the complexities surrounding it. And you should be ashamed of yourself that you have such judgemental and misinformed views about Africa, especially when it concerns your own people; that is, if you are black. Ashamed!
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I am not condeming all of African or other traditions, only those that are harmful and just plain wrong. If women were supposed to be circumscised, they would have been born that way. I do not and never will beleive that other mere human beings have the right to permanently distort another human being's body for there own purposes. Just like I would think it wrong and unfair if in this country, by the time a girl was anywhere from say, birth to 12 or so years old, people forced them the have breast implants or plastic surgery.

I know that I do not have the same biased, bigoted, racists beliefs as most western whites. I do not and have never though they way you expressed about Africans in general. Because I have some thought or critizism or opposing opinon of a particular or several traditions, practices, or whatever does not mean that I (like western whites) tie everything and everyone together. But I do know that some traditions and rituals were born out of necessity, or ignorance, or experimenting or what have you, and some tratitions need to end, or be modified, or are not longer necessary.
i.e.: Separatism = Tradition
Racism, Sexism, Classism = Tradition and Ritual
Riding on the back of the buss in Black = Tradition/Ritual
Throwing Virgins in Volcano = Tradition/Ritual
Lynch Black Man for not jumping of side walk or for looking at a
white person = Tradition/Ritual
African/Black People Slaves = Tradition/Ritual


[This message was edited by Rowe on January 16, 2004 at 06:59 PM.]

quote:
Originally posted by EbonyRose:
Question? Since this subject inevitably has to do with "the child" who is being parented, would anyone say that the majority of these these badly parented children come from two-parent homes? Single-parent homes? Or maybe no-parent homes (being raised by other family members or in the system? Is it even? Or are just as many from one environment or the other? Confused"

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They come equally from both. People just do not want to admit how much Americans are influenced by what they see on t.v. or depicted in movies and on the news. Hollywood, the right-wing controlled media/news is who peddles the image of the ever troubled and poorly parented child(ren) from the single mother, single parent home, etc., when in reality, poorly parented children are produced just as much by married parents as are by single parents. You only see the news stories of the abused child, the drug addicted mother/father/parents, the neglected child if the happen to be poor or black or have a single mother; you don't see paraded across the t.v./news/movies this same image of middle class or two parent homes, while in thes homes, in this class, in these two parent homes, children are also neglected, abused, have drug addicted/alchoholic parents, etc.

You may not find easily true statistics on the matter due to the fact that most middle class on up skeleton are tucked away safely from public view and knowledge by the doctor, theraphist, or psychologist that they can afford; while on the othe end of the spectrum, the poor, usually black/minority, or single parent can only afford the services of the local "clinic," etc., and any public services agency (which is where most lower incomes wind up) services statistics are a matter of public record----and once viewed/calculated, which income level, race, marital/parental status is going to keep popping up?



BLACK by NATURE, PROUD by CHOICE.
Free your mind, and the rest will follow.

sunnubian ....

I hear what you're saying, and agree with you wholeheartedly regarding the media/tv perspective of us. I don't know the statistics either, which is why I asked the question ... but I guess I had in mind more of personal opinions or experiences than actual stats, as I wouldn't know where to look for them. Perhaps when I get some time, I may try.

However, right now, I'm not really talking about what the media has to say or congress or anybody who we know doesn't really know or care about our situation. As this thread has progressed, it seems that I was mistaken about what the original intent or question of it was .... as it seems to be about some negative statement made by congress or television or somebody like that. Well, I really don't care what they have to say about our situation. I really don't much care about their opinion about anything. My response was more in the direction of what our opinions are and what we think about it and what we think we can do about it.

If somebody else says that the reason our kids grow up to be bad kids is because of OOWB, my only concern is is it true? And if so, why? While, yes, I agree that a two-parent home does not guarantee the perfect child, does not alleviate the possibility of bad parenting, and that many children from two-parent homes still need and can benefit from additional guidance and rearing, it is from my personal experiences and other sources from which I have personally obtained knowledge that there are far too many single, unknowledgable, often young and immature "parents" that have no clue about how to raise a child ... many weren't raised properly themselves!

Many stories that appear outside of the popular media show the problems of badly parented kids... those in the system, those on drugs, those doing crimes, those with several children from the same number of different mothers/fathers, those who drop out of school, those with low self-esteem and aren't even trying to elevate out of their situation. And negating that Congress says anything about it, the fact of the matter is that it's true! We do have a lot of our children in our communities facing those situations. Also true is that a lot of those children are parented in an OOWB situation.

Two people who walk down the isle and sign a piece of paper does not equate to a real marriage or a good two-parent home. Such action can easily be no more than a matter of two people walking down the isle and signing a piece of paper! The institution and sanctity of marriage not being known by either party .. let alone engaged in! Just as true is the fact that a woman can become pregnant, not want to marry the father and still be an excellent role model, caretaker and raiser of a full and vibrant individual. Two people who conceive a child can not want to be married, and still both have a hand in raising the child ... and there you would have a hands-on two-parent situation, without marriage being involved. There's all sorts of senarios to toss around ....

But, I don't understand dismissing the fact that so very often those kids who "go wrong" and are badly parented come from a situation of a single unskilled parent, absent mother/father or no-parent involvement at all just because Congress (or whoever) said it, when, in fact, it is true!

As I said, from what I see and hear and know, it would be my guess that there is more dysfunctional raising of our children from within the single-parent situation than from the two-parent home situation. And that is just a guess ... I have no statistics to prove one way or the other. But, if it is true, then I say that situation needs to be dealt with. If it is true, then I would guess that building a better understanding of marriage within our community would help allieviate not only the problem of OOWBs but of those child-rearing problems that they cause. If you have a better chance of properly raising a child in a strong, stable two-parent household than you do of in a single-parent, out of wedlock birth situation, (and I am not saying that statistics prove that ... but if they were to) then wouldn't it behoove us to try to make sure that more children are born within that two-parent marriage system than outside of it?

I really didn't mean to take up this much space here ... just kinda got started and couldn't stop! Smile But I feel the need to type as a disclaimer that these are just questions that came to mind, and though there are some here who will take this post as my declaring some all-knowledgable, all-wise, holier-than-thou type of posting, it has not been written in that regard. I am just merely expressing an opinion ... be it right or wrong! Smile

BLACK by NATURE, PROUD by CHOICE.
Free your mind, and the rest will follow.
[QUOTE]Originally posted by EbonyRose:
sunnubian ....



"However, right now, I'm not really talking about what the media has to say or congress or anybody who we know doesn't really know or care about our situation."
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I understand you point here, but I feel that we need to care about the images that continue to be permeated that stero-type African Americans, women, the poor, single mothers. When our children see only negative images of themselves, their communities, their parental status, they will eventually beging to believe them, and once a person believes that they are something, they will begin to act and/or live that way. I believe that the media stero-typing is more serious that we want to believe. Let me give you a prime example: I live in the south in a medium sized town that has never had any real gangs, horrendous ghettos, etc., but since in this midum sized little southern town, we do have cable, movies, movie rentals, etc., most of the young boy around her (teens, pre-teen) walk around dressing and talking and acting like they are in a gang; you can hear their conversations where they are talking like they have come up "hard" from the hard streets of the ghetto (some of my nephews included, although they were raised in a middle class neighborhood no where near a ghetto); ----all this comes from their only self-images in the media, movies, etc., being these "ghetto" stero-types; after watching or seeing enough of this, they begin to believe that that is who they are and how they are supposed to act, talk, walk, dress.-----So, the information that is being subliminally suggested to our children does have psychological effect on them, one that may often lead them into the wrong direction in life.
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"My response was more in the direction of what our opinions are and what we think about it and what we think we can do about it."
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In my personal opinion, of course a child would be better off being raised by both parents in the same home with the child, but even that is contingent on the parents being good parents. I just do not think that a child in a two parent home with no good parents are any better off in a one parent home where the parent is no good.
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If somebody else says that the reason our kids grow up to be bad kids is because of OOWB, my only concern is is it true?
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Who says this? Where do you hear this? Where do you see this "always" played out this way.---goes back to why we should be concerned with how the media/hollywood portrays us.
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And if so, why? While, yes, I agree that a two-parent home does not guarantee the perfect child, does not alleviate the possibility of bad parenting, and that many children from two-parent homes still need and can benefit from additional guidance and rearing, it is from my personal experiences and other sources from which I have personally obtained knowledge that there are far too many single, unknowledgable, often young and immature "parents" that have no clue about how to raise a child ... many weren't raised properly themselves!
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First let me say,I do not promote people becoming young teenage parents.
But, what is never mentioned or pondered is the fact that just as many married, knowledgable, often not young parent have not clue about how to raise a child, and many of them were not raised themselves. What people do not know or believe is that there are just as many "of age" or married, or "middle-class" or intelligent or sucessful people in this country that are parents and are lousy parents, or are abusive parents; and the only reason most people do not know or believe this is because, again (sorry), the media/hollywood only focuses on and portrays lousy parents almost always to be "young" or "single mothers" or "poor white trash" or "ghetto" or "uneducated."
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Many stories that appear outside of the popular media show the problems of badly parented kids... those in the system, those on drugs, those doing crimes, those with several children from the same number of different mothers/fathers, those who drop out of school, those with low self-esteem and aren't even trying to elevate out of their situation.
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And again, what they do not show is all of these same problems with children of two-parent homes, therefore, it leaves a false image in the minds of people that it's only "certain types" of people, then everyone zooms in on this group of people only, putting them under the microscope, and since we have been media trained to only place the microscope over one place and to only look for the negative, then falsely, that is the only place it appears to be, and the only place "blame" will be placed.
So, what really should happen is that all parents regardless of marital status should be place under the social microscope, then you will find that the negativity found should be judged by the parenting and not the marital status; and only then will society see that the types of children you describe above come from all walks of life and from all parental statuses.
One offer of proof is the booming psychiatric business in this country that would be bankrupt if it only relied on the poor, or the black, or the single-mothers in this country for their business, and all of the middle-class on up people in this country that have made it such a booming profession are not in therapy because "after" they grew after being raised in their "two parent" homes by "good parents", then and only after then, there was something going on in their lives that caused them to need therapy.
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Two people who conceive a child can not want to be married, and still both have a hand in raising the child ... and there you would have a hands-on two-parent situation, without marriage being involved. There's all sorts of senarios to toss around ....
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That's all I've been trying to say. If you have good parents, you will be well raised whether they are married or single, because they both will see to it that you do.

The problem lies more so in parents not taking their full responsibilities where the children they bring into this world are concerned and more should be done to make (even if by law) any parent that brings a child into this world take responsibility for the child financially, emotionally, and in anyway that is required to properly raise a child.



But, I don't understand dismissing the fact that so very often those kids who "go wrong" and are badly parented come from a situation of a single unskilled parent, absent mother/father or no-parent involvement at all just because Congress (or whoever) said it, when, in fact, it is true!
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Again, people believe what they see and are told by the media, etc., and the media, etc., is not airing all of the same senario, intances, negativities, etc., that is equally happening in the two-parent households, etc.
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As I said, from what I see and hear and know, it would be my guess that there is more dysfunctional raising of our children from within the single-parent situation than from the two-parent home situation. And that is just a guess ... I have no statistics to prove one way or the other.
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If you go by statistics, like I said, the only statistics with public access will be those from where the middle-class/or two-parent household equivalent problems with child will mostly not be found.


But, if it is true, then I say that situation needs to be dealt with. If it is true, then I would guess that building a better understanding of marriage within our community would help allieviate not only the problem of OOWBs but of those child-rearing problems that they cause. _If_ you have a better chance of properly raising a child in a strong, stable two-parent household than you do of in a single-parent, out of wedlock birth situation, (and I am not saying that statistics prove that ... but if they were to) then wouldn't it behoove us to try to make sure that more children are born within that two-parent marriage system than outside of it?
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And the key words here are strong, stable, two-parent. Of course if that is what you have. I just do not see strong or stable coming being a quality of many marriages between teenagers.

What we really need to do is find away the get our young people to focus more on their futures than on sex and especially sex without protection from disease and pregnancy.
How this will/can be done in a sexually obsessed nation that lives, breathes and sleeps sex in everything from clothing designes, to car and food commercials, I do not know.
But one key to curbing problems regarding they young single mothers that are parenting badly, in my opinion and from what I have seen, is there has got to be something done about renting apartments and homes to people that are still teenagers. What happens in a lot of cases is a young girl has a baby or more than one and by the time she is 18, she can rent an apartment, and so can any others, next thing you know there is an entire apartment complex filled with 18-25 year olds. And there lies the problem in it being a quality community for raising children. Because 18-25 year old do about the same thing every where, from any socio-economic background, which means that the apartment complex/community is almost turned into a virtual fratehouse, only with children being raised in it as well---from there you have the true root of the problem of poorly raised children, the start of the chain reaction.------------I may have to ellaborate on this theory later; ----I am being rushed off line right now Smile
sunnubian ....

You are putting me between a rock and a hard place, here! Smile Because, I don't want to, in any way, even give the slightest impression that I would defend the media .... for anything, in any way!! To me, the media is like a satan! Eek

Now, with that being said, let me say that I was born and bred in Los Angeles and moved here to the South about 8 years ago. I have seen first hand the real gangsters of the 'hood vs. the wanna be gangsters here in Houston! lol And I totally understand what it is you're seeing. But, IMO, the media and tv portrayals are not our biggest enemies in the negative images that get passed on to our kids. To me, that distinction rests much more upon the shoulders of our entertainers ... the music industry in particular.

Granted, I'm not the biggest TV watcher, but I've noticed that a lot of the Black shows on TV, even though I consider many of them somewhat "ghetto" put forth images of Black people who at least are trying to have it going on to some extent. However, rap and hip-hop music is nothing but degrading and degenerative, sometimes truly sickening images of Black people and put a label on it of "keeping it real." What you see on the videos and hear in the lyrics are much more damaging than any sit-com or drama with Black characters on it that I have seen.

The kids here (good, bad or indifferent) don't go around with their pants halfway down their butts or half-naked, tryin' to drink and do drugs and think they're "hard" from watching the Parkers or My Wife & Kids, or because Congress or the news says that that's the way they should act. They get it from the garbage they hear on the radio and see on MTV and BET .... because it is there that they are told that that's the way they should act! And so that is a matter of us promoting a negative image of us to us. And that's something we really need to do something about!

BLACK by NATURE, PROUD by CHOICE.
Free your mind, and the rest will follow.
Ebony,

Whenever I am posting, I am usually doing it in a rush and I may not get a chance to ellaborate, specify, or just may forget to add a point, please excuse Smile

But I too feel that "Rap" or this so called "gangst rap" is the ring leader in the most negative influences on our young people;
I feel so strongly regarding the real impact of this rap music on our youth, that I personally screen any that a young person will listen to in my home, I stopped watching BET a very long time ago and do not let any children/teenagers watch BET all day long in my home (and often BET is on 24 hours a day in a lot of homes, homes with preschoolers, elementary age children living in them watching nearly as much as the teenagers, or worst, their parents).
I am contantly in contact with children and young people between my own to neices and nephews and their friends to the ones I tutor after school, and I can assure you that they can testify to my one woman crusade against, not rap, but the negative rap and the negative and false images that the rap industry saturates the Americans psychi with it being a true to life, exact image of all blacks, or at least all black youth.


My harping on the media/hollywood, was inclusive of this negative rap image being one of the main stero-types, negative images, negative influences. I guess I should not have assumed that when I say media/hollywood, whoever is reading knows that I to include the negative rap influence, etc. I should have said, media/hollywood/entertainment industry instead of just media/hollywood, I forget that just because in my mind it is all the same, all under the same "umbrella", that others see each as being separate.

If we had to write a list in order of importance of the ones that need to be addressed/ceased, negative rap should be number one on that list.
We shouldn't have to chose between MARRIAGE or BETTER PARENTING. Theses topics should be bonded together. What is needed is strengthened MORAL fiber in our homes and community. OOWB should not be accpetable behavior. There are so many negative drawbacks to single parent households it should never be accepted as the norm.
We our at a point in time when Black men are accusing the Black woman of not allowing him to be the man. Or, the Black woman is accused of not knowing how to "deal" with the Black man. Could it be because she was raised in a houselhold where the MAN was not there? So, how could she know what its like to have a man around when she herself was fatherless. Could it be she is the SINGLE PARENT who has had to earn the money, raise the children, and made the hard descision without a MAN's input?
What we need is to raise our children with moral values, self-esteem and basic foundation of being a productive citizen in our society. Every child deserves good parents and its up to us as individuals to make good decisions accordingly. We NEED ore homes with MOM and DAD in it as responsible parents and partners.

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