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Capitalism always loses when compared to the promises of communism and socialism. Why? Because you're comparing a system that exists on earth, warts and all, with a Utopia, something that doesn't exist on earth. But compared to economic systems that actually exist on earth, capitalism wins hands down.

Let's ignore the fact that we who live in countries on the capitalist end of the economic spectrum are far richer than our fellow man living in countries toward the socialist/communist end. Instead, let's look at life and death. It's safe to say that countries toward the socialist/communist end of the economic spectrum are the world's most brutal. What's worse is that liberals in America and elsewhere give these barbarians a free ride. You say, "Explain yourself, Williams." Let's look at it.

Adolph Hitler and Nazism is, as it should be, a target for moral condemnation. Not only was Nazism responsible for the murder of six million Jews, but as well the genocidal murder of millions more in nations they occupied. Annual ceremonies are held, and museums have been erected to commemorate Hitler's victims. Covering these events, media people chime in with their condemnation. Here's my question: when have you heard; what annual ceremonies are held; and what museums have been erected to commemorate the victims of communism and socialism? While liberals around the world, give communists and socialists a free ride but let's see whether it's justified.

The former Union of Soviet Socialist Republics (U.S.S.R.) is the world's premier murderer. Between 1917 and 1987, the U.S.S.R. murdered 65 million people. Red China comes in second place with a murder count of 35 million. That number is being revised upwards with more information coming out of China. If we include Cambodia, North Korea, Vietnam, Bulgaria, Romania, Yugoslavia, and other socialist/communist countries, the murder toll exceeds 97 million people. These are not victims of war but murder or what some researchers call democide and genocide.

"But Williams," you say, "you said liberals give these people a free ride. What do you mean?" Back during the 60s and 70s, campus radicals and flower children marched around waving Chairman Mao Zedong's "Red Book" and chanting praises to him. What happened when President Ronald Reagan declared, and accurately so, that the Soviet Union was an evil empire? Liberals in America and Europe, including those in the media, went ballistic in their condemnation of President Reagan. I doubt whether liberals support the murderous actions of these regimes but they do support their philosophy of human control and obedience. But implementation of that philosophy requires massive brutality.

Liberals also give murdering regimes in Africa a free ride. Between 1934 and 1987 an estimated 12 thousand South African blacks lost their lives at the hands of the South African government. Black and white liberals have roundly condemned South Africa. But there's silence and even praise for murdering governments to the north. Between 1966 and 1979, Nigeria murdered over 400 thousand of its own citizens; between 1975-87 Mozambique murdered 200 thousand; between 1960-87 Uganda murdered 579 thousand, between 1956-87 the Sudan murdered over a million. Since 1960 over 2.2 million black Africans have been murdered by their own governments. But for America's black and white liberals, it's only the 12,000 blacks murdered by South African whites that count.

Communism and socialism is seductive. It promises us that people will contribute according to ability and receive according to needs. Everybody is equal. Everybody has a right to decent housing, decent food and affordable medical care. History should have taught us that when we hear people talk this stuff - watch out!
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quote:
Originally posted by DeltaJ:

Capitalism always loses when compared to the promises of communism and socialism. Why? Because you're comparing a system that exists on earth, warts and all, with a Utopia, something that doesn't exist on earth. But compared to economic systems that actually exist on earth, capitalism wins hands down.



In theory every political philosophy is perfect. In practice, every political philosophy is flawed. Capitalism is certainly no different. Even with government regulation, corporations routinely defraud their consumers with bad product, unfair pricing, illegal labor practices, toxic environmental practices, etc., etc. We only need to mention the names Martha Stewart, Enron, Tyco, Worldcom, etc. to illustrate how the greed of capitalism corrupts.
It is also strange, how our plight here in America and the plight of the Native America is not mention in the same light as that of the Jews in Nazi Germany, The men and women in the former Soviet Union, China and so on. Negro's cry when reading about the suffering JEWS, suffering Russians, suffering Chinese but turn they damn nose up at the Black man and woman suffering right here in the U.S. as a matter of fact, Negroes go so far as to blame us for our suffering while all the other men and women on the earth that have suffered at the hands of an oppressor and an oppressive government did not cause their own suffering like we did. Negroism, it is catagious blame it on the liberals for the Sambo's and handkerchief heads who look at other nations of people suffering and feel their pain but support those who inflict pain on their own people.

Can you articulate our pain and the lasting effects of our plight here in America like you have the Jews, the Russian and so on? Lets here our story of rape, murder, enslavement, and brainwashing, changing of names, religion and beating down until you get what you have today. A self hating Black man who is a Christian that disrespects his woman and will kill another Black person but would not look too hard at the real enemy who is responsible for his current mind set. You don't want to tell that story!
how the greed of capitalism corrupts

Greed is greed. Greed is something that springs forth in human beings, not political systems or hot toaster ovens. It is in fact an issue of morality, even to an emotional state.

There was greed before capitalism, there will be greed after it as well. There was greed in Rome, and there was greed in ancient Egypt. There was greed in the Catholic Church, and the Baptist as well, and there is greed in the islamic world, and dictatorships of every flavor.

There was and IS greed in Haiti, and in Uganda, and in the former Soviet Republics. There is GREED today in North Korea, and in Cuba. There is most likely greed within your own family somewhere, and in your ancestors before you.

Capitalism is a political, economic, and philosophical system, it is ancient, yet has remained through the millenia. It has no emotion, it has no nerve cells. It cannot be greedy, just as it cannot be benevolent. Only PEOPLE can choose and become contorted by an emotion, or by moral turpitude, or by necessity even. Only PEOPLE can do that.

I think of this response, as I think of the justification for introducing 'campaign finance reform'. The reason, 'well, eh, its 'cause money corrupts, yeah thats it'. Did it ever occur to anyone that if certain politicians are coming out and just openly telling you that its not the politician, but the 'money' that is at fault, as if that somehow makes it ok, that maybe you've elected the wrong money-changers for the political office in the first place?

And I do not agree that 'every political philosophy is perfect in theory'. In fact, I don't even know what thats suppose to mean! In no way is every political philosophy correct in theory. Maybe you've never heard of North Korea, Nazism, or Stalin's soviet union, or Apartheid or 'the confederate states of america', but I'm pretty sure if that theory says its alright to take things from people, and put black folks to work for you, I kind of have second thoughts bout that 'perfect theory', you know what I'm saying.

But I can congratulate you on that gift for noticing the 'obvious' again, cause I never would have known that things in life just aren't 'perfect' ever. Say, maybe that applies to your 'theory' theory.

Funny, I don't recall ever calling capitalism 'perfect', but if you say so....

Anyways, name for us the one system in the world today, that not only can feed all its own people, but a large percentage of the world as well, and provides the basis and resources for medical, scientific, and humantarian resources on a par far above all the others that have come and gone, and that can even save entire nations from hellish dictatorships and force the dreaded 'freedom' idea on people all over the planet due to its military innovation and technological edge over all other systems that have ever existed on the planet, cause soldiers to become food relief workers who provide shelter for others, rather than shooting them.

Huh? Wha?? What you say? Capitals?? Oh, Capitalism??? Yeah alright, then Gimme some of that thank you.

This notion that 'capitalism' is the enemy is ludicrous frankly. Hell, the beautiful thing about capitalism is that you do not even have to participate, since its tailor made for democracy, you don't have to work hard, don't have to hire anyone, don't have to compete, and don't even have to work in some cases if you don't want. I mean its the best system, cause if you KNOW you are too weak to compete and strive for excellence, you can just be, be yourself!

You can even call yourself a socialist and live off the government pretty much in a capitalist society, I got family been doing that for generations. Trying being a capitalist in a socialist society though, and you'll never even find a realtor.

Some of the damnest weirdest responses, sometime don't know what to make of it really. who knows ........
I think it mentions Hitler, Nazism, Stalin and Sovietism, Cambodia, North Korea, Sudan and a few others, and you claim it doesn't refer to slavery? You sure you want to stick to that 'conclusion'?

Oh yeah anyway, we all know that socialism and communism would never even entertain the idea of slavery, how foolish of I. I should have known better. Damn, how much a ticket to North Korea, I hear its real happening there. You're female?
It is also strange, how our plight here in America and the plight of the Native America is not mention in the same light as that of the Jews in Nazi Germany, The men and women in the former Soviet Union, China and so on. Negro's cry when reading about the suffering JEWS, suffering Russians, suffering Chinese but turn they damn nose up at the Black man and woman suffering right here in the U.S. as a matter of fact, Negroes go so far as to blame us for our suffering while all the other men and women on the earth that have suffered at the hands of an oppressor and an oppressive government did not cause their own suffering like we did. Negroism, it is catagious blame it on the liberals for the Sambo's and handkerchief heads who look at other nations of people suffering and feel their pain but support those who inflict pain on their own people.

Can you articulate our pain and the lasting effects of our plight here in America like you have the Jews, the Russian and so on? Lets here our story of rape, murder, enslavement, and brainwashing, changing of names, religion and beating down until you get what you have today. A self hating Black man who is a Christian that disrespects his woman and will kill another Black person but would not look too hard at the real enemy who is responsible for his current mind set. You don't want to tell that story!
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You go FAHEEM!!!!!!!!

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Ricardo mathFrown The slavery of Black Americans, is never going to be superimposed over the suffering of other groups. Never. I think it's the connection with the skin, and the color of. No really.
Delta,

You ought to really go back and read your posts and listen to yourself....i'll ask again...do you consider yourself a black conservative? You sound crazy as hell trying to excuse the rapist theives that started the capitalist system......and sing their praises.......while giving out sarcasm in terms of black concerns.....take a look at yourself...it is needed.......
quote:
Originally posted by MBM:
quote:
Originally posted by DeltaJ:

Capitalism always loses when compared to the promises of communism and socialism. Why? Because you're comparing a system that exists on earth, warts and all, with a Utopia, something that doesn't exist on earth. But compared to economic systems that actually exist on earth, capitalism wins hands down.



In theory every political philosophy is perfect. In practice, every political philosophy is flawed. Capitalism is certainly no different. Even with government regulation, corporations routinely defraud their consumers with bad product, unfair pricing, illegal labor practices, toxic environmental practices, etc., etc. We only need to mention the names Martha Stewart, Enron, Tyco, Worldcom, etc. to illustrate how the greed of capitalism corrupts.


Is it really capitalism that corrupts people or are people corrupt whether or not there is capitalism? Look at the Soviet Union or any other state-run economy. Just because they don't have "Inc." bheind hteir name doesn't mean that they aren't corrupt.

People want things and can be greedy regardless of what kind of system they are in.
quote:
Originally posted by toussaint:

Is it really capitalism that corrupts people or are people corrupt whether or not there is capitalism? Look at the Soviet Union or any other state-run economy. Just because they don't have "Inc." bheind hteir name doesn't mean that they aren't corrupt.

People want things and can be greedy regardless of what kind of system they are in.


That's my point. Without regard to how beautiful a system is in theory, when it intersects with human beings, it will become flawed in predictable ways.
What can we learn from the concept of FAMILY? Why is the concept of FAMILY deemed so valuable in human social and economic construct? What would life be like for humans if the total concept of FAMILY, as an institution and construct, were no more?

I ask this question with the hope that some will have the openness to see that the abstract concept of family centers on COLLECTIVISM. If the concept of COLLECTIVISM is wrong for a society then why does it work so well for the most valuable institution to humanity, which is the FAMILY?

As I have said before, existence or the laws of existence says that for every gain of one thing, there is a loss of something else. In other words, every action produces an opposite reaction. Thus, what is the opposite reaction of capitalism? This is the question that capitalist will not answer, for they ignore the opposite reactions.

Our capitalistic democracy is fueled by the concept of INDIVIDUALISM. Thus, individualism has become part of the capitalistic culture. Thus, the consequence of capitalism is the slow erosion of institution of collectivism, including the FAMILY unit. The reason being is that the competition between individualism and collectivism is a zero sum game as they are equal opposites. Thus, the only way to increase individualism is to reduce collectivism and the only way to increase collectivism is to reduce individualism.

Already in America we are seeing the slow destruction of the institution of the FAMILY, as INDIVIDUALS exercise their FREE WILL to maximize their individual lives without wanting to be constrained by the collective interest and needs of wife/husband or children (FAMILY). What is the future of a society or nation who core social institution, the FAMILY, is DYING? Who does one place a monetary value on this, in regards to it being a cost or our SUCCESS?

It is no accident that the most violent nations on the earth, in regards to criminal activity, are democracies/capitalistic. It may be true that people in communist nations live in fear of the government but is that worse than living in fear of your fellow citizens. Fear is fear. How many of us can sleep comfortable with our doors unlocked at night? How many of us can feel safe about their daughters walking dark street or free from fearing some pedophile will come snatch our kids from their innocent play, rape and murder them? All the time that we spend patting ourselves on the back of not feeling repressed by our government, we are ignoring the millions of Americans who are repressed from the fear of other citizens. In Iraq, there are many people who would trade the freedom of liberation from Saddam, for the safety and security from Ali Baba's that existed under Saddam.

The fallacy of your comparison, DeltaJ, assumes that a POINT IN TIME comparison, gleans which competitor is superior, capitalism or communism. However, if a sprinter and marathon runner were in a race, how could you tell who is winning? The only way to tell who is winning a race between a sprinter and marathon runner is to know were the FINISH LINE IS. If the FINISH LINE is not in sight and the sprinter is far ahead to his speed, his being ahead does not mean he is superior. It actually may mean he is a fool for expending all of his energy and not pacing and conserving it for the future. In such a case, the marathon runner will be behind due to his pacing himself for the LONG RUN. It is only if the FINISH line is NEAR to the START, can one say that the faster speed is superior. Thus, in this respect as long as there is a FUTURE, running at maximum, as capitalism does (which allows us to produce and consume more), will come with a price of exhaustion eventually.
No one can stop people from thinking and acting as individuals. Whether you like it or not, people are born as individuals and act as such.

God created us that way for a reason. Family units do have their purpose, but this is all done with voluntary action by individuals. People choose whether or not they will foster a healthy family environment.
For the umpteenth time, you are wrong again Toussaint. People are not born as individuals; they are born into a FAMILY. An individual cannot create him or herself, but rather, must be created by others. This interdependency of humanity supports the need for FAMILY or COLLECTIVE interest.

The problem is not people thinking or acting as individuals, the problem is with people sacrificing collective interest in the pursuit of individual interest. For the life of me, I do not understand how people like your self can herald our system of individualism and freedom and at the same time condemn deadbeat dads or blacks for not choosing to get married. At what point in these activities are these men not doing what is in their individual interest?

As a married man with kids, I could decide that adultery and spending all my earning on myself and not sharing it with family, would make me happier than feeling constrained by the moral codes and obligation of collectively existing in a family. If I actualized on those thoughts, I would be perusing individuality, which is the supposed virtue of our system and nation. Yet, if I did so, I would be one the statistics that people like you, Toussaint, use to highlight why black folks are there own worse enemy and who are activities are destroying black people, now the white man.

The problem is that people like you want it both ways. Individualism and freedom is a virtue that should be promoted. The problem is that human behavior comes in good and bad. Thus, when you release individualism, you release the bad along with the good, resulting in no net gain.

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